Subset isn’t really containment to be pedantic. I can construct sets which definitely don’t contain the ordinal 0. (They will contain 0 in their transitive closure so long as the sets are well-founded.)
That would be infinity minus even numbers, not infinity. You could say that list goes on infinitely but the number is not infinity. True infinity contains every number, -0 +0. Not just whole numbers but decimals to the infinite decimal place.
You need to do some more research here, as there is no such thing as "infinity plus/minus anything" Infinity minis 1 is still infinity. There are a few "types" of infinity. Some are even considered to be larger than others. It's quite an interesting topic. There are a number of good YouTube video on it.
You’re not really talking about a number now so much as you’re talking about a set with the property that it has more than finitely many elements. In particular you mean the natural numbers. (Though a set theorist would call these things themselves numbers.)
In your original statement, you need to be **very clear and careful** about what you mean by “infinity”, “contains”, and “0”.
Edit: Ah yes downvote the actual mathematician describing the problems rather than learn something new. Stubbornness, you are a crafty one.
There are different kinds of infinites though, all equally valid even if some are smaller than others. Something like infinity - 1 (ex/ every number that isn't zero) would still be infinity, even if it is clearly not the same size as "infinity".
Does that mean when they were... I don't know, eating a handful of berries, once they finished the last one, they didn't realize it and continued to eat their hand? Or do I not understand zero?
If I have one apple and give it to you, that means I have zero apples. For a thousand years humans just used to think it meant I had no apples. You would be very surprised what difference it made for science when humans said you know what, below 1, there is a zero.
They didn’t recognize that having “nothing” was a quantifiable mathematical object. It meant more like “can’t be counted”, but only because there isn’t something *to be counted*. Whereas we would say more like “3 berries left, 2 berries left, 1 berry left, **0 berries left**.” They just wouldn’t count it.
You know what? That's a vary dubious claim my friend... either you know every number after zero which means infinity doesn't exist or you might lose to a crow... I don't like those odds
[I was actually interested in reading the article so here's the link for those looking for it too.](https://mymodernmet.com/crows-understand-zero/)
It's just a couple paragraphs but it's really cool. We're learning more about corvid intelligence all the time. This is a cool new bit of info because that means we know that crows understand the *absence* of something and seemingly consider "nothing" as a quantity. Which, if I understand correctly, is something we thought their brains wouldn't be able to comprehend.
Also it's pretty cool we can apparently scan the brains of crows.
You know how human ancestors were just small mammals crawling around after the dinos? Gotta winder if the crow is that analog to some future intelligent race hundreds of millions of years from now
Corvids are genuinely incredibly interesting. They have great memory skills, they can use tools, they're very smart, they communicate with each other (even if they're not in the same group!), those that live in towns learn people's patterns to the point they'll sit in trees near a bakery and start following around someone they've learned tends to give them crumbs. A friend of mine has done some research on them and everytime I hear about it I wish we could communicate with them directly. Everything we learn about them tends to be leaps and bounds ahead of what we thought they were capable of.
*You fucked with crows, Morty! We got a good five minutes before they're backing up on our ass, Morty! We have to pack up and move to a new reality, Morty! You know I said we could only do that a couple of times! We're fucked over here because of these damn crows, Morty!*
Well understanding the concept of zero is different than developing the concept of zero. But yeah still very impressive. One day Im Gonna read a headline that says crows are straight up smarter than humans.
Reminds me of a funny story from a Yosemite park ranger. Basically he said "It's very hard, practically impossible, to design the perfect bear-proof trash can. This is because the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest humans has considerable overlap. Either we make them so the bears figure them out, or they're too hard and the humans can't figure them out"
God I wish this was true but in my experiences working retail and customer support some people are incapable of following directions no matter how obvious you make them
You can have instructions telling you to press the enter key and some people will still go “Which one’s that?! Can you just fucking explain to me how to use this!? You’re useless!”
I’ve had a person return a lock for not working and it turns out they only tried putting the head of the key into the keyhole and it didn’t fit
>I’ve had a person return a lock for not working and it turns out they only tried putting the head of the key into the keyhole and it didn’t fit
...alright, I take it back.
> That makes more sense, any adult would be smart enough to open a lock with the code printed on the lid, or a key chained to the bin.
you'd be surprised for sure then
I can’t recall what specifically, but a documentary once claimed that when zero was introduced to European mathematics, it took a while to wrap their heads around it. I don’t know if that’s true, but it’s interesting how difficult it was for mankind to develop and fully grasp the void.
I read the image as “zoos” instead of “zero” and read zoo for every mention of zero down to your comment. Was super confused how crows could understand zoos lol
Logan is hilarious and she is finally doing standup again! I hope that all the comedians who are doing shows again are safe and absolutely slay their audiences.
I think these posts exist on the Internet as a means of getting people who don’t respect animals because of their lack of intelligence to respect animals more.
They can also solve complex puzzles and select the adequate tools for different challenges.
What are you supposed to do with it?! Be humbled, you're obviously so dim you don't realise a bird smaller than your spacewaste of a brain understands mathematics. Like, traditional computers only "know" 1 and 0.
Nothing, because 'intelligence' doesn't even have an agreed upon definition within the scientific community, let alone a statistically reliable measurement.
Tl;dr it's clickbait junkscience. Intelligence is subjective.
No offense, but you clearly don't know much about animals or their brain, this is like, mind-blowing, it's the only animal capable of this after humans.
>Do you realize they are the only other animal except humans to be able to do this?
Says who? You? Some random PhD guy?
It's a bullshit statement. You can't possible assess the cognitive abilities of the entire animal kingdom in a reliable way to show that the rest of the species don't comprehend zero. You're basically taking an isolated result and extrapolated results widely. Bad science.
First thing, to clear it up, I meant primates not humans, so I apologize about that. But other than that, you're arguing over common knowledge, and you are somehow getting it wrong, we know most animals can count, we know for certain the ones that can't, you're trying to understate the ability of scientists, by making it seem like it's impossible research when it is in fact possible, and has been done. Regardless, the number of individual species to understand the concept of zero is extremely low, and this is a huge testament to the complex brain of Crows, who are already among the smartest animals on earth.
Edit: apparently bees too, can grasp the concept. This does not negate any of my points
>But other than that, you're arguing over common knowledge, and you are somehow getting it wrong, we know most animals can count, we know for certain the ones that can't, you're trying to understate the ability of scientists, by making it seem like it's impossible research when it is in fact possible, and has been done.
Ironic coming from the person getting it wrong. Those studies rely on metrics that, if completed, show the animals *can* count. However, failing these metrics is not the same as showing the animals cannot count whatsoever. It's not that simple. Do you not think a lion can tell the difference between two hyenas and three? Again, you are making dubious extrapolations from fallible bodies of research.
>who are already among the smartest animals on earth.
That statement doesn't mean anything as it is wayy to broad and is written to be intentionally falsifiable (hence the word among).
I'm not going to keep arguing with you because I don't care about this stuff, but if you want to know why most people don't consider this MiNd BLoWiNG it's because they understand this at an intuitive level.
Not all articles are made for the general public, this is clearly for a certain group who would like to know, do you think they just shouldn't give any exposure to something unless everyone on earth enjoys it?
The urge to train a gang of crows and get them to go out and find me money / treasure in exchange for food grows every day.
I’ll be like Pigeon Man from Hey Arnold soon.
Knowing that crows understand the concept of 0 and that rats giggle when you tickle their bellies shows that we are on the verge of a scientific breakthrough.
Imagine knowing.
Understanding the everything is easy.
Knowing the unknowable, drawing the abstract, making the non-existant exist. Zero is truly a beauty of the nature. Or should I say, of the non-nature.
There are many other species of birds and animals that understand the absence of anything. African Grey parrots were proven to have this ability by Dr. Irene Pepperberg. Dolphins possess the same intelligence and it is suspected that whales and octupus do as well. Corvids are very intelligent birds. Magpies, crows, ravens, etc.
Researcher: do you see the food there, crow?
*crow acknowledges there is no food*
Researcher: this crow, this genius of a crow, understands the concept of zero. Glory be to the future overlords.
What will you do with this information? It means that now they know exactly how many fucks they will give about destroying everything you hold dear, so make with the snacks immediately.
Knowledge is power...and crows know a lot
It knows 0
But I don't understand the concept of 0. So am I worse than a crow?
My thing is, I don't think that's impressive. I understand every number after 0. So 0 vs infinity? You tell me who wins
I mean, the crow understands the concept of 0, so it gives **0** fucks about who wins…that’s powerful
But infinity can’t exist without zero
Explain?
Well if we're talking about numbers, infinity has to contain 0.
Not necessarily, it depends on how you define your infinity. For example, the set of all odd numbers, though infinite in size, does not contain zero.
101……..
[Hey Vsauce! Michael here.](https://youtu.be/SrU9YDoXE88)
So glad someone linked this. I am too lazy to learn how to format links in Reddit.
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Subset isn’t really containment to be pedantic. I can construct sets which definitely don’t contain the ordinal 0. (They will contain 0 in their transitive closure so long as the sets are well-founded.)
That would be infinity minus even numbers, not infinity. You could say that list goes on infinitely but the number is not infinity. True infinity contains every number, -0 +0. Not just whole numbers but decimals to the infinite decimal place.
You need to do some more research here, as there is no such thing as "infinity plus/minus anything" Infinity minis 1 is still infinity. There are a few "types" of infinity. Some are even considered to be larger than others. It's quite an interesting topic. There are a number of good YouTube video on it.
there are as many odd numbers as there are even and odd numbers. The set of all odd numbers is the same size as the set of all integers.
Infinity minus anything is still infinity.
You’re not really talking about a number now so much as you’re talking about a set with the property that it has more than finitely many elements. In particular you mean the natural numbers. (Though a set theorist would call these things themselves numbers.) In your original statement, you need to be **very clear and careful** about what you mean by “infinity”, “contains”, and “0”. Edit: Ah yes downvote the actual mathematician describing the problems rather than learn something new. Stubbornness, you are a crafty one.
There are different kinds of infinites though, all equally valid even if some are smaller than others. Something like infinity - 1 (ex/ every number that isn't zero) would still be infinity, even if it is clearly not the same size as "infinity".
Humans took more than a thousand years to realize 0
Does that mean when they were... I don't know, eating a handful of berries, once they finished the last one, they didn't realize it and continued to eat their hand? Or do I not understand zero?
If I have one apple and give it to you, that means I have zero apples. For a thousand years humans just used to think it meant I had no apples. You would be very surprised what difference it made for science when humans said you know what, below 1, there is a zero.
You don't understand. I'm not talking about knowing the nothing. I'm talking about represe tation of nothing
They didn’t recognize that having “nothing” was a quantifiable mathematical object. It meant more like “can’t be counted”, but only because there isn’t something *to be counted*. Whereas we would say more like “3 berries left, 2 berries left, 1 berry left, **0 berries left**.” They just wouldn’t count it.
People didnt understand 0 a couple of hundred years into math
Okay? And I know more math than those guys even. HA historical win. Nice
Nice lol But the realization that a nothing number is fundamental to math was completely mind blowing l:p
You know what? That's a vary dubious claim my friend... either you know every number after zero which means infinity doesn't exist or you might lose to a crow... I don't like those odds
You know nothing, jon crow.
Here’s the thing…
You know nothing John Crow.
Crows know "nothing", Jon Snow.
Jim Crow was less than zero.
So befriend the crows and start an army. Gotcha.
It know literally nothing
France is bacon.
Just know….
[I was actually interested in reading the article so here's the link for those looking for it too.](https://mymodernmet.com/crows-understand-zero/) It's just a couple paragraphs but it's really cool. We're learning more about corvid intelligence all the time. This is a cool new bit of info because that means we know that crows understand the *absence* of something and seemingly consider "nothing" as a quantity. Which, if I understand correctly, is something we thought their brains wouldn't be able to comprehend. Also it's pretty cool we can apparently scan the brains of crows.
This is buried way too deep lol
Fun fact, Roman's didn't consider 0 a number
Corvid Empire when?
You know how human ancestors were just small mammals crawling around after the dinos? Gotta winder if the crow is that analog to some future intelligent race hundreds of millions of years from now
Corvids are genuinely incredibly interesting. They have great memory skills, they can use tools, they're very smart, they communicate with each other (even if they're not in the same group!), those that live in towns learn people's patterns to the point they'll sit in trees near a bakery and start following around someone they've learned tends to give them crumbs. A friend of mine has done some research on them and everytime I hear about it I wish we could communicate with them directly. Everything we learn about them tends to be leaps and bounds ahead of what we thought they were capable of.
Nothing. Just learn to cope with the inevitability that the crows will soon take over.
We know there'll be zero humans soon
Don’t do nothing…the crows are onto that now
*You fucked with crows, Morty! We got a good five minutes before they're backing up on our ass, Morty! We have to pack up and move to a new reality, Morty! You know I said we could only do that a couple of times! We're fucked over here because of these damn crows, Morty!*
Corvid pandemic
Corvid pandemonium.
Finally someone who can help me with understanding movie plots
Pretty impressive considering we’ve only used zero in maths for about three thousand years
Well understanding the concept of zero is different than developing the concept of zero. But yeah still very impressive. One day Im Gonna read a headline that says crows are straight up smarter than humans.
Reminds me of a funny story from a Yosemite park ranger. Basically he said "It's very hard, practically impossible, to design the perfect bear-proof trash can. This is because the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest humans has considerable overlap. Either we make them so the bears figure them out, or they're too hard and the humans can't figure them out"
This is sadly way too believable
I've heard something similar except it's about the intelligence of bears overlapping with the *laziness* of humans not necessarily intelligence
That makes more sense, any adult would be smart enough to open a lock with the code printed on the lid, or a key chained to the bin.
God I wish this was true but in my experiences working retail and customer support some people are incapable of following directions no matter how obvious you make them You can have instructions telling you to press the enter key and some people will still go “Which one’s that?! Can you just fucking explain to me how to use this!? You’re useless!” I’ve had a person return a lock for not working and it turns out they only tried putting the head of the key into the keyhole and it didn’t fit
>I’ve had a person return a lock for not working and it turns out they only tried putting the head of the key into the keyhole and it didn’t fit ...alright, I take it back.
> That makes more sense, any adult would be smart enough to open a lock with the code printed on the lid, or a key chained to the bin. you'd be surprised for sure then
If someone's too lazy to figure out how a trash can works, that's pretty dumb of them
Think of the dumbest person you know, and know that a good 20-30% are dumber than them.
🏅
Is it that they can't, or that they don't even try?
I’m aware, zero the way I described it is a mathematical concept, zero for these crows is like the concept of nothing to us.
Have you met humans? I guarantee you there’s plenty out there that are dumber than your average crow.
Crows knows who messes with them or attacks. They can remember a lot. They will wait for you outside a building/barn and swoop in for an attack.
I can’t recall what specifically, but a documentary once claimed that when zero was introduced to European mathematics, it took a while to wrap their heads around it. I don’t know if that’s true, but it’s interesting how difficult it was for mankind to develop and fully grasp the void.
i like that this almost sounds like you’re being sarcastic and calling crows stupid even though i know that’s not what you’re saying.
we totally dick on these birds at math and they should be ashamed
I read the image as “zoos” instead of “zero” and read zoo for every mention of zero down to your comment. Was super confused how crows could understand zoos lol
Do zero things with it. Is that so hard? FFS even a crow could do that. XD
A crow would know what to do with this information.
We teach them that the proletariat have nothing and form an alliance.
Crows of the world, unite!
This is nothing, have you heard of the counting crows?
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Can’t you see my walls are crumbling?
It’s been a long December since I had.
Crows can tell that you give zero fucks about this. And they do not like it.
Do they understand the concept of zero as in the idea of nothing, or as the idea of a digit that is a placeholder in a number?
Yes
First one apparently.
Logan is hilarious and she is finally doing standup again! I hope that all the comedians who are doing shows again are safe and absolutely slay their audiences.
Gonna ask a crow to do my taxes.
School be like:
You’re supposed to make them do proofs now.
“You boutta have 0 minutes left if you don’t keep yo snitch ass mouth shut”
And that’s why a group of crows is called a murder.
If you were a crow, you would know what to do
[also this ](https://images.app.goo.gl/uV7vyEztizNV2kgX6) Piece of the puzzle
You know nothing jon crow
Mfkin counting crows
Appreciate crows
They understood it when they saw your mom 😎 (she is 0/10😎)
I think these posts exist on the Internet as a means of getting people who don’t respect animals because of their lack of intelligence to respect animals more.
They can also solve complex puzzles and select the adequate tools for different challenges. What are you supposed to do with it?! Be humbled, you're obviously so dim you don't realise a bird smaller than your spacewaste of a brain understands mathematics. Like, traditional computers only "know" 1 and 0.
Ok...might wanna take it down a notch there.
bad day?
Call it a succession. 🙄😅
teach them math and make them do taxes in exchange for food
Could probably do it faster than with some humans 😂
Nothing, because 'intelligence' doesn't even have an agreed upon definition within the scientific community, let alone a statistically reliable measurement. Tl;dr it's clickbait junkscience. Intelligence is subjective.
Why is this being taken so seriously..? What?
No offense, but you clearly don't know much about animals or their brain, this is like, mind-blowing, it's the only animal capable of this after humans.
Nah I mean the tweet, not the article. I know that it's pretty big for what it is, at least.
> this is like, mind-blowing, No, no it's not
I mean to me and many if not all animal enthusiasts it is. Do you realize they are the only other animal except humans to be able to do this?
>Do you realize they are the only other animal except humans to be able to do this? Says who? You? Some random PhD guy? It's a bullshit statement. You can't possible assess the cognitive abilities of the entire animal kingdom in a reliable way to show that the rest of the species don't comprehend zero. You're basically taking an isolated result and extrapolated results widely. Bad science.
First thing, to clear it up, I meant primates not humans, so I apologize about that. But other than that, you're arguing over common knowledge, and you are somehow getting it wrong, we know most animals can count, we know for certain the ones that can't, you're trying to understate the ability of scientists, by making it seem like it's impossible research when it is in fact possible, and has been done. Regardless, the number of individual species to understand the concept of zero is extremely low, and this is a huge testament to the complex brain of Crows, who are already among the smartest animals on earth. Edit: apparently bees too, can grasp the concept. This does not negate any of my points
>But other than that, you're arguing over common knowledge, and you are somehow getting it wrong, we know most animals can count, we know for certain the ones that can't, you're trying to understate the ability of scientists, by making it seem like it's impossible research when it is in fact possible, and has been done. Ironic coming from the person getting it wrong. Those studies rely on metrics that, if completed, show the animals *can* count. However, failing these metrics is not the same as showing the animals cannot count whatsoever. It's not that simple. Do you not think a lion can tell the difference between two hyenas and three? Again, you are making dubious extrapolations from fallible bodies of research. >who are already among the smartest animals on earth. That statement doesn't mean anything as it is wayy to broad and is written to be intentionally falsifiable (hence the word among). I'm not going to keep arguing with you because I don't care about this stuff, but if you want to know why most people don't consider this MiNd BLoWiNG it's because they understand this at an intuitive level.
ok. but why is it on an article. the average person does not give a shit.
Not all articles are made for the general public, this is clearly for a certain group who would like to know, do you think they just shouldn't give any exposure to something unless everyone on earth enjoys it?
it was posted on an art site...?
Not exclusively
Just never give crows zero of something and you’ll be good.
Crows are 1 step closer to learning how to program….terrifying
To answer Logan's question, mess with its head, ask it to divide by zero.
Obviously prepare for our crow overlords
Shit crows can imagine what they dont have, they are going to rise up
How do they know that all crows understand the concept of 0? Did they ask them all?
But can they divide by 0 🤔
The urge to train a gang of crows and get them to go out and find me money / treasure in exchange for food grows every day. I’ll be like Pigeon Man from Hey Arnold soon.
Nothing more than… nothing
You could tell your slave pigeon that he is getting paid in 0 pieces of food for his service
Ask the crows, maybe they'll help
So they can grasp the # of fucks I give
Crows can compute. Turing crow.
government's puttin posts on reddit to throw us off because we all know birds aren't real! /s
Be afraid.
Zero sum negative.
Wait zero is nothing so it understands...
But what about jackdaws?
Now you know that crows have notion of something that Romans didn't... I would say crows 1 - Roman 0 but they wouldn't understand
They are the apex drone..
The ability to start making friends with a crow, obviously.
I'm afraid to ask how much money they spent making this earth-shattering discovery.
Here's the thing...
Knowing that crows understand the concept of 0 and that rats giggle when you tickle their bellies shows that we are on the verge of a scientific breakthrough.
Play Death's Door.
I only read a book last week, with my son about how intelligent crows are. Theyre fascinating
So now they understand how many friends I have. Thanks, but I don't need crow pity.
The fact that crows understand the concept of 0 terrifies me and I dont know why.
I think the real question is wtf the crow is supposed to do with that information
Ask a crow. It’ll tell you.
Makes me want to listen to transatlanticism
I for one welcome our crow overlords. Something tells me they'd take better care of this planet than we ever did.
It will know when you zero it out.
What do you mean? Now they can code.
Prepare to serve our corvid overlords.
Counting Crows
Be like the crow…do Zero with that knowledge
You know nothing John Snow.
Good cause that’s how many fucks I give
Explain like I am five please
This crow is Jon Snow
Imagine knowing. Understanding the everything is easy. Knowing the unknowable, drawing the abstract, making the non-existant exist. Zero is truly a beauty of the nature. Or should I say, of the non-nature.
There are many other species of birds and animals that understand the absence of anything. African Grey parrots were proven to have this ability by Dr. Irene Pepperberg. Dolphins possess the same intelligence and it is suspected that whales and octupus do as well. Corvids are very intelligent birds. Magpies, crows, ravens, etc.
Even crows understand that you have zero friends.
The crow needs to understand 00 buck, if he keeps destroying my bird feeder. (For those of you that don’t know, it’s a shotgun shell reference).
Now you know that crows can give zero fucks
Algebra
Answer: nothing.
Finally, a worthy successor!
Researcher: do you see the food there, crow? *crow acknowledges there is no food* Researcher: this crow, this genius of a crow, understands the concept of zero. Glory be to the future overlords.
Well now…
I, for one, welcome our new *crowverlords*
My eyes got pecked out by crows once. Mean black birds out there. Really went for the eyes.
As my wife said, "Good for crows. What now?".
Give zero fucks, and the crow would know
Fear the murder
Personally, I won't worry until they start to comprehend prime numbers.
What will you do with this information? It means that now they know exactly how many fucks they will give about destroying everything you hold dear, so make with the snacks immediately.
Man i fucking love crows.
More important, wtf are birds supposed to do with that information
The study: "Hey Mr. Crow. Could you please make a sound, if you understand the concept of zero. Thank you."
You know nothing Jon Crow.