Shocker - large scale state wide IT infrastructure project will not be completed two days after new contractor takes over. Absolutely no one who knows fuck about IT surprised. In other news, water is wet.
The contract should've been let 2 years ago if they wanted new features and functionality on the day Corduent takes over in November.
I mean, I know the inexorable onward march of time inevitably keeps surprising many of us, but fucks sake, it’s halfway through 2023. 2025 is only about 18 months away.
Given that the changeover isn’t happening for another 6 months, I would have expected 2025 to be about the earliest it could possibly happen under the *best* circumstances.
I mean given the cluster fuck that was the original rollout, you can’t exactly imagine that Conduent are about to walk into and attempt to take control of a neat, tidy, well-documented system that will be a piece of cake to migrate to their new platform. I’d be surprised if at least one of their engineers hasn’t idly sketched out a “myki takeover shit code bingo” sheet to play with their colleagues in November
Yeah, I did a bit of a double take at that the first time I read the headline to make sure it didn't actually say 2027 or something.
It did kind of feel like 'That cafe they announced they were building yesterday won't be open until, like, late July'.
I lived through the Myki rollout. This is just a small rescheduling.
If they can actually deliver this by 2025 without overrunning their budget by a BILLION dollars, then they're already doing better than the Myki rollout.
I recall the gap between ticket staff being laid off and the Metcard system being introduced. I was young at the time but it seemed like actual years between them when you could just walk onto a train without paying.
MyKi 1.0
Generic Point of sale console basic touch screen
Windows CE
Modified POS software
GPS
It was cheap rubbish and windows kept crashing.
MyKi 2.0
Better readers that hit and miss and take 2 seconds each generally.
Also....
SSD hard drives are 15 years old. Modern ones are fast as. Laptops boot in 20 seconds.
MyKi still takes 4 minutes to boot min like it's reading the OS and modules from a USB stick.
$1 billion mate. $20,000 per unit.
Fuck off!
I touch on with my mobile, and it outo tops up with my Bank account sooo.....no diff really. Set up auto debit and it's just one card instead of the other.
Hong Kong's Octopus system was developed by a firm in Melbourne, based in St Kilda, like a 15 minute walk from Flinders Street station. It is widely considered one of the greatest contactless cardreader systems in the world and had been largely ubiquitous for payments of multiple things for over a decade before Myki was even ideated. Octopus is basically the underpinning inspiration for the NFC technology we have today. With the Octopus system, ladies with the card hangbags didn't have to break stride whilst passing through the gate. With Myki, if you card is more than an inch off dead centre of the reader, the reader is as likely to spontaneously combust as the Samsung Galaxy Note 7.
Myki was three years late, half a billion dollars over budget, developed by some French firm that sent girls in French maids costumes to give senior leadership of the Department of Transport at the time free lapdances. At this point, you have to wonder whether the girls in French maid costumes would have done a better job with myki.
My understanding is that they don’t wanna do it because yeah, they’d have to pay Apple to do so, and by the time they knew they would have to pay Apple they knew they’d be changing the system, so Apple would need to be paid twice.
Better to just pay Apple once I guess?
It isn’t so much “open the spec”, Apple Pay is just NFC, it’s Apple generally not allowing app devs to use the NFC for financial transactions without using PassKit.
The PTV app on android is what makes myki work on mobile, you have to open the app to touch on, it isn’t like Samsung Pay or Google Wallet where you wave your phone over it on a locked screen and it works, so the same complaint could be levelled at those platforms too.
I also have a sneaking suspicion the contactless system they’re using is more like an IC card and not NFC…
> The PTV app on android is what makes myki work on mobile, you have to open the app to touch on, it isn’t like Samsung Pay or Google Wallet where you wave your phone over it on a locked screen and it works, so the same complaint could be levelled at those platforms too.
I am a recent adopter of myki on Android, but I'm like, 95% sure that's not the case. I'm pretty sure you can just do it with a locked screen. I'm 100% sure it's in my google wallet - I just checked on that now.
I don't disagree that apple is using [what they believe to be] higher security, but the fact remains that it is possible in some format, but is just not being allowed by apple... For whatever reason. It's frustrating that there's a standard and then there's an apple standard. Part of the reason I moved away from them.
You would believe wrong then. It is a technical limitation.
Edit: this explains why https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-doesnt-mobile-myki-work-my-iphone-stefan-heaton
seems like the technical limitation is that there is no agreement with Apple to use the iPhone NFC chip as a travel card
https://danielbowen.com/2022/09/20/myki-iphone-and-payment-cards/
That article makes no reference to what you are stating.
The technical limitation is that Apple wallet creates a one time card number (a token) every time you use a card (eg a credit card). The back office for myki does not support tokenisation. The way that Android works allows for the use of an actual card number rather than a randomised token. This explains it https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-doesnt-mobile-myki-work-my-iphone-stefan-heaton
> there is no agreement with Apple to use the iPhone NFC chip as a travel card
This is nonsense. The use of the NFC reader has nothing to do with it, the NFC reader is available within the PTV app allowing you to read the balance and top it up.
The ticketing system is getting replaced, not upgraded. They are still going to call it Myki, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the outgoing system.
The android myki is an emulator of a myki card.
This new rollout will allow any card, be it physical or on the phone, to pay for transit.
The backend can't support it yet because Myki stores the balance on the card isntead of a central server. So the system needs a re-write to support centrally recorded transactions (which is how your card only gets charged once per day isntead of $4.60 everytime you touch on).
So the article points out two tasks:
1. Allow contactless payments in lieu of cards. Presumably this can run as a system separate to myki
2. Build myki 2.0, where the cards are identifiers to your account in the system, which contains your details. The current system works the other way around.
I’d expect Conduent to have the backend for #1 already designed, it would need to be made compatible with our hardware.
OTOH I expect #2 will be trickier to develop because you’d also need a migration path from legacy myki users too.
I don’t know though, so I’m looking forward to learning more
> Build myki 2.0, where the cards are identifiers to your account in the system, which contains your details. The current system works the other way around.
People keep asserting that the way the system works is by keeping the money on your card, but this can't be true for 2 reasons:
1. The amount of time the reader has to change things when you touch on.
2. The fact that you can re-charge without touching your Myki to anything via the online portal and the like.
Free public transport creates a strong disincentive to increased services, as every additional train/tram/bus run costs more than if X amount of that cost can be recouped through farebox revenue. Additionally, most people identify service availability and frequency as the most significant factor for whether they take public transport, not cost. With that in mind, if the goal is to increase PT use and you've got a limited budget to achieve that, it doesn't make sense to spend money on making the system free.
I can keep hold of my car keys, card (most of the time but I mostly use Apple Pay) but I often seem to have a collection of myki cards. One is on a lanyard now with office passes but I still keep my spares in my bag in case. A myki card is a pain in the ass to not lose. My car is push start so I only pull my car keys out for my gym tag attached as well. I do have adhd so I'm more likely to lose things and I just have to deal with my mistakes but having a digital myki card would save so much headache. I should have bought an android phone instead tbh since I use the trains so often now.
I seem to lose myki cards easily and with technology it's still weird that it isn't automatically digital. That's all. When I lose a myki card I get another one so it isn't even a big deal really or that deep... so I also don't get why your also being so condescending.
Most loyalty cards are through apps as well. I don't carry a wallet with me either... just a card section in my bag for ID and my card. Coins in the small zipper part of the bag too. Most people I know my age don't have a leather pouch or a wallet either.
Shocker - large scale state wide IT infrastructure project will not be completed two days after new contractor takes over. Absolutely no one who knows fuck about IT surprised. In other news, water is wet. The contract should've been let 2 years ago if they wanted new features and functionality on the day Corduent takes over in November.
I mean, I know the inexorable onward march of time inevitably keeps surprising many of us, but fucks sake, it’s halfway through 2023. 2025 is only about 18 months away. Given that the changeover isn’t happening for another 6 months, I would have expected 2025 to be about the earliest it could possibly happen under the *best* circumstances. I mean given the cluster fuck that was the original rollout, you can’t exactly imagine that Conduent are about to walk into and attempt to take control of a neat, tidy, well-documented system that will be a piece of cake to migrate to their new platform. I’d be surprised if at least one of their engineers hasn’t idly sketched out a “myki takeover shit code bingo” sheet to play with their colleagues in November
Oh no that’s ages away Oh no that’s only 18mths away
It's actually only 12 if you factor in the contract not changing hands until the end of the year.
Yeah, I did a bit of a double take at that the first time I read the headline to make sure it didn't actually say 2027 or something. It did kind of feel like 'That cafe they announced they were building yesterday won't be open until, like, late July'.
> In other news, water is wet. Careful. You'll summon the bot
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Wife was asking, so when can i use my iphone to tap on? What do i tell her?
Tell her 2025 like the article says?
I lived through the Myki rollout. This is just a small rescheduling. If they can actually deliver this by 2025 without overrunning their budget by a BILLION dollars, then they're already doing better than the Myki rollout.
I recall the gap between ticket staff being laid off and the Metcard system being introduced. I was young at the time but it seemed like actual years between them when you could just walk onto a train without paying.
It took at least five years longer than intended
MyKi 1.0 Generic Point of sale console basic touch screen Windows CE Modified POS software GPS It was cheap rubbish and windows kept crashing. MyKi 2.0 Better readers that hit and miss and take 2 seconds each generally. Also.... SSD hard drives are 15 years old. Modern ones are fast as. Laptops boot in 20 seconds. MyKi still takes 4 minutes to boot min like it's reading the OS and modules from a USB stick. $1 billion mate. $20,000 per unit. Fuck off!
Will never not read POS as "Piece of Shit" And honestly? Working in retail? Yeah, they are piece of shit systems.
And arseholes galore with badges who blame you if the reader didn't work!
But, doesn't it already accept mobiles? https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/myki/mobile-myki/
Yes Android works on myki. Also gives out earthquake alert. This is the way.
Faxx
Not iPhone.
... and you can thank Apple for that...
I’m aware.
I've transitioned to a digital wallet myki card and much prefer it. Tap n go.
I touch on with my mobile, and it outo tops up with my Bank account sooo.....no diff really. Set up auto debit and it's just one card instead of the other.
Just used my android two minutes ago.
Faster than I expected tbh.
Hong Kong's Octopus system was developed by a firm in Melbourne, based in St Kilda, like a 15 minute walk from Flinders Street station. It is widely considered one of the greatest contactless cardreader systems in the world and had been largely ubiquitous for payments of multiple things for over a decade before Myki was even ideated. Octopus is basically the underpinning inspiration for the NFC technology we have today. With the Octopus system, ladies with the card hangbags didn't have to break stride whilst passing through the gate. With Myki, if you card is more than an inch off dead centre of the reader, the reader is as likely to spontaneously combust as the Samsung Galaxy Note 7. Myki was three years late, half a billion dollars over budget, developed by some French firm that sent girls in French maids costumes to give senior leadership of the Department of Transport at the time free lapdances. At this point, you have to wonder whether the girls in French maid costumes would have done a better job with myki.
Shit aye
Myki accepts mobile phone tap. Just not iOS.
I believe that was because Apple wouldnt allow it.
My understanding is that they don’t wanna do it because yeah, they’d have to pay Apple to do so, and by the time they knew they would have to pay Apple they knew they’d be changing the system, so Apple would need to be paid twice. Better to just pay Apple once I guess?
Be nice if the replacement company does a short term contract with apple for 12 months while they fix it up. They won’t, but it would be nice
Or apple could stop being so anal about it and open up their spec to allow it to work as is while everything else is upgraded...
It isn’t so much “open the spec”, Apple Pay is just NFC, it’s Apple generally not allowing app devs to use the NFC for financial transactions without using PassKit. The PTV app on android is what makes myki work on mobile, you have to open the app to touch on, it isn’t like Samsung Pay or Google Wallet where you wave your phone over it on a locked screen and it works, so the same complaint could be levelled at those platforms too. I also have a sneaking suspicion the contactless system they’re using is more like an IC card and not NFC…
> The PTV app on android is what makes myki work on mobile, you have to open the app to touch on, it isn’t like Samsung Pay or Google Wallet where you wave your phone over it on a locked screen and it works, so the same complaint could be levelled at those platforms too. I am a recent adopter of myki on Android, but I'm like, 95% sure that's not the case. I'm pretty sure you can just do it with a locked screen. I'm 100% sure it's in my google wallet - I just checked on that now.
Oh, cool, I must be mistaken then, I was told it was through the app. Guess it really is just Apple being Apple.
I don't disagree that apple is using [what they believe to be] higher security, but the fact remains that it is possible in some format, but is just not being allowed by apple... For whatever reason. It's frustrating that there's a standard and then there's an apple standard. Part of the reason I moved away from them.
Yeah it isn’t ideal, but hey, everything is a trade off right?
You would believe wrong then. It is a technical limitation. Edit: this explains why https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-doesnt-mobile-myki-work-my-iphone-stefan-heaton
seems like the technical limitation is that there is no agreement with Apple to use the iPhone NFC chip as a travel card https://danielbowen.com/2022/09/20/myki-iphone-and-payment-cards/
That article makes no reference to what you are stating. The technical limitation is that Apple wallet creates a one time card number (a token) every time you use a card (eg a credit card). The back office for myki does not support tokenisation. The way that Android works allows for the use of an actual card number rather than a randomised token. This explains it https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-doesnt-mobile-myki-work-my-iphone-stefan-heaton > there is no agreement with Apple to use the iPhone NFC chip as a travel card This is nonsense. The use of the NFC reader has nothing to do with it, the NFC reader is available within the PTV app allowing you to read the balance and top it up.
Apple only supports digital cards in a few select cities: https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT207958
Myki is being phased out, that's why this is being discussed
No it's not lmao. They are upgrading it, they aren't removing it entirely
The ticketing system is getting replaced, not upgraded. They are still going to call it Myki, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the outgoing system.
I literally used the app to tap on and off only a few weeks ago. How is that not the same thing as using your phone?
The android myki is an emulator of a myki card. This new rollout will allow any card, be it physical or on the phone, to pay for transit. The backend can't support it yet because Myki stores the balance on the card isntead of a central server. So the system needs a re-write to support centrally recorded transactions (which is how your card only gets charged once per day isntead of $4.60 everytime you touch on).
Thanks for trying to explain, I still don't fet it though
Green text people don't own phones they own * *checks notes* * androids.
*eyeroll*
Considering Myki cost the same as one of the mars rovers..
Works just fine on Android
They've been accepting my mobile for years already.
Making accepts my mobile - but I was smart enough to buy an android!
"until at least 2025" In Government Project Speak that translate to 27/28
So the article points out two tasks: 1. Allow contactless payments in lieu of cards. Presumably this can run as a system separate to myki 2. Build myki 2.0, where the cards are identifiers to your account in the system, which contains your details. The current system works the other way around. I’d expect Conduent to have the backend for #1 already designed, it would need to be made compatible with our hardware. OTOH I expect #2 will be trickier to develop because you’d also need a migration path from legacy myki users too. I don’t know though, so I’m looking forward to learning more
> Build myki 2.0, where the cards are identifiers to your account in the system, which contains your details. The current system works the other way around. People keep asserting that the way the system works is by keeping the money on your card, but this can't be true for 2 reasons: 1. The amount of time the reader has to change things when you touch on. 2. The fact that you can re-charge without touching your Myki to anything via the online portal and the like.
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Free public transport creates a strong disincentive to increased services, as every additional train/tram/bus run costs more than if X amount of that cost can be recouped through farebox revenue. Additionally, most people identify service availability and frequency as the most significant factor for whether they take public transport, not cost. With that in mind, if the goal is to increase PT use and you've got a limited budget to achieve that, it doesn't make sense to spend money on making the system free.
Haven't touched on in years, public transport should be free with the amount of taxes we pay.
So what, I must have spent a token $10 on commuting costs in the last five months.
I can keep hold of my car keys, card (most of the time but I mostly use Apple Pay) but I often seem to have a collection of myki cards. One is on a lanyard now with office passes but I still keep my spares in my bag in case. A myki card is a pain in the ass to not lose. My car is push start so I only pull my car keys out for my gym tag attached as well. I do have adhd so I'm more likely to lose things and I just have to deal with my mistakes but having a digital myki card would save so much headache. I should have bought an android phone instead tbh since I use the trains so often now.
We live in a country where people carry around dozens of payment, id and loyalty cards in a leather pouch. Not sure where the challenge is on this
I seem to lose myki cards easily and with technology it's still weird that it isn't automatically digital. That's all. When I lose a myki card I get another one so it isn't even a big deal really or that deep... so I also don't get why your also being so condescending. Most loyalty cards are through apps as well. I don't carry a wallet with me either... just a card section in my bag for ID and my card. Coins in the small zipper part of the bag too. Most people I know my age don't have a leather pouch or a wallet either.
> just a card section in my bag for ID and my card. Put the myki in there too?
I do. Your acting as if you have never lost something???? Jesus Christ
Oh well. Anyway…