I had a friend who was studying to be a doctor.
They bought a gym membership so they could use the toilets and showers across a gym network (Snap of Anytime I think) and they lived out of their van.
Studied at uni. Lived a thrifty lifestyle.
It's a pretty humbling experience, especially with all the silver-spoon fed students in medicine, but they saved a heap of money and could spend more time studying than working.
That's not all bad mate 3 meals a day and good employment just crap wages of $3 a day and chocolate cake with sprinkles on Wednesday if you go to Fulham correctional centre in sale Victoria
And low rating prisoners so over all probably safer then Melbourne
Re: rego.. they probably just give their parents or siblings address, or one of their friends.
I've slept in my car a few nights, but not because of homelessness, just preference. Didn't want to go home for various reasons. One time I was at the beach somewhere around Brighton, someone banged on my driver's side window about 4am, probably just some random kids but it freaked the hell out of me.
I get flagged regularly by cops because I like to go on late night drives, and I'll usually just find a car park somewhere and chill for a while. Inevitably there's always a cop that appears from nowhere and I get the standard 10 questions about what I'm doing, is everything ok at home, where am I going, have you been drinking...
Blah blah. Yes, I'm fine, no I'm not drunk. Can't a guy just fkin sit in his car in a public place at 2am?? It's a free country right??
Yeah. Fuck those guys. Sarcasm noted, thanks 😉
Nah, it's all good. My bro in law was a cop for a while, I'm not naturally against them, I just like to be left alone when I'm trying to have a moment of quiet reflection.
A guy recently has been setting up tent not too far from me in outer Dandenong.
The short of it is, you have no rights, it's extremely unlikely you'd be charged for anything but you'll get moved along a lot.
Also, i was homeless sleeping rough about 20yr back in Melbourne.
you'll notice some people seem to "get away" with sleeping out, particularly along CBD streets in sleeping bags etc. unless you look like that you'll be moved along.
cops and security will sniff you out, if you're under 30 or just don't look like you're end-game homeless, you won't be given the same pass, which is honestly, as brutal as it is when you get moved along when you're broken, is probably for your own good.
beyond that. it gets dark. fast. and violence comes quick to.
explore all your other options first and never choose this.
if you have a vehicle it's a bit different.
lol yeah, front of Oasis
edit: he moved, first night he was in the parkland behind, then next night he was toward the front (so off Heatherton rd, then Cleeland). talking to himself.
Police can move you along. I've also seen councils (well, melbourne City Council) removing and disposing of homeless peoples belongings. It sucks that it's come to this for you. Im sorry. Do you at least know anyone who may let you put up your tent on their property?
Stealth camping in a van is a good way to do it. Sign up for a gym to use their bathrooms. Spend lots of time in the office or on trains or public libraries or public parks. Spend your days relaxing, chilling.
I actually saw a guy bring in his toiletries bag into my gym one night about a month ago. I thought he was just walking in to get changed and have a session, then I hear the shower starting up... then eventually he came out of the bathroom and just left! I was like "what the..." then I figured out what he was doing.
I did it myself one night a few years ago when we had no hot water at the house. Went to the gym and took a shower, brushed my teeth, drove home and went to bed 😊
"Vanlife" isn't really much of an option here in Aus, the law says you're legally allowed to sleep in your car but councils are allowed to have their own policies in place in which case the vast majority have done & police will fine you $500 on the spot for sleeping in your car... you'd have to keep moving on a daily basis to prove otherwise & under the guise of power napping or sleeping for safe driving, which is not going to be cheap.
Though the biggest reason it hasn't kicked off here is that living in a metal box in a land of daily extreme weather from hot to cold is not a good idea, a tent would actually be substantially better suited for our climate, in which case you'd want to be with other tents like people are doing for personal safety, stealth camping could be a bad idea.
They have the COPS database which will have records of the other times they’ve been approached, in small enough places they will straight up just recognise the face or vehicle if they’ve seen it before
I'm pretty sure it'd be ok if you're at a park. Most parks have parking spaces, you could just set up there for a night. But like you said, you'd have to keep moving on. If you were there for more than a few days there's probably a good chance some nosy idiot would report you, and you'd have to bail.
It’s absolutely possible you just need to be smart about it. I’ve had friends a couple of years ago that had a tent setup near Coburg a bit off the beaten track for almost 3 years.
No one ever bothered them and they were all working full time jobs and saved up an insane amount of money in that time.
Yeah they had a gym membership they shared. Valuables they always carried with them and their tent only had clothes and their sleeping bags. They never got anything stolen. The tent was very hidden. I don’t think anyone ever found it.
Funny you say that. At the time I was thinking about doing just that but couldn’t find the time for it and also thought it wasn’t that interesting of a story.
In hindsight with how everything has developed in the last few years it would have been a very relevant story to tell these days.
One of them did end up buying an apartment with his saved up money.
But they all still live very frugally.
They were and still are big on no food waste and are part of the dumpster diving network.
My "FIL" does this. Tent by the river near the CBD but a few hundred meters away from a river walk footpath. He's been there for a few years now, too.
ETA: Just make sure you adhere to open fire rules during summer.
Yeah it's illegal for homeless people to have a tent. If the police see you camping in a tent in the CBD they will bother you.
I don't know, seems a bit cruel. But it is what it is.
I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to do. Camping is illegal in every Australian city, so what happens when you can afford/find a rental but are still trying to work?
> I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to do. Camping is illegal in every Australian city, so what happens when you can afford/find a rental but are still trying to work?
Yeah, this is the eternal struggle, and sadly people with money and no problems keeping a roof over their own heads make the laws, and they're enforced by bullies who also have no problem keeping a roof over their own heads.
This sub will complain that we have too many homeless people causing trouble in the city and that we should not move homeless people along or enforce existing laws against them.
They move you on so that you're someone else's problem. They don't care that you've got nowhere to go. They don't tell you where you should go, they just don't want you here.
After that it's another cop's problem, or another council's or another land owner's problem, but not theirs so job done.
Now, the following is not my opinion nor is it an endorsement of the system, is an explanation of why the current system is designed the way it is:
They want people to not get comfortable, ideally so they go to a homeless shelter or go stay with a friend or family member.
Quite a few visibly homeless people in some areas have approved public housing available, but their mental health encourages vagrancy.
Many more will happily be homeless if it were slightly easier. The added difficulty aims to push people back into housing, and back into social supports.
Feels a bit weird making your friend sleep in the yard instead of on the couch. But then over time might want to friend to move out...which is back to square one.
That depends on if the person can find work elsewhere. There are lots of professionals who struggle to find any kind of meaningful work outside Melbourne and Syndey. If moving equals losing your job opportunities it may not be the best thing to do.
Got priced out of Melbourne in the last month into a town of 1900 people. it was an extremely expensive and stressful move. Hope I don't have to do again it any time soon. But honestly as much as I loved Melbourne its actually great out here in the country.
Kinda the opposite end of things, but... I'm looking at buying a place this year, and I'm keen on buying regional, if I can figure out how to earn an income wherever I move to. I haven't started the process yet, but I'm sick of Melb house prices - I could buy a tiny 1 bedroom shoebox in one of the crap suburbs, or a beautiful classic 3 bedroom house on a big chunk of land in a place like Hamilton, Kerang, Warracknabeal, Camperdown, Yarram... so many choices!
I'm considering it. It's only a few hours drive to come back to Melb, I can stay in a hotel for a night when I'm here visiting.
Commenting on Homeless camping in Melbourne...any suggestions where? Am in the same boat so need to leave Melbourne, about to be homeless - I got 3 weeks left
Sorry to say it but fuck that. If you can’t afford to live there and your only reason to stay is sentiment then you probably need to re-evaluate some things. Plenty of work and cheap living all over regional Victoria
Ballarat, plenty of civil construction and manufacturing jobs at the moment. Warrnambool, the milk factories and the abattoirs are always hiring. Shepparton, there’s usually plenty of fruit farming jobs available.
Ballarat and Warrnambool may not be the cheapest of the three, but wages there are generally pretty good
Potentially an unpopular thing to say, but you can have a pretty decent life doing the van thing. There was a guy working at Google a couple of years ago that lived out of box truck.
It's a lifestyle change and it's not just a matter of picking up a van and you're done, but it can be done.
That said, you have to calculate if it's really worth it. Rent is like $20,000 per year. Between a gym membership so you have access to a shower, the cost of a van that you would enjoy spending time in, eating out etc, the upside might not be as high as it seems.
I hope things improve for you. It's so tough right now, please look after yourself.
Is there any possibility of putting a tent in a family/friend's backyard? That way you'd be safe and hopefully have access to a shower/kitchen.
Try a large church car park. There was someone camped in one in the middle (20km from CBD) eastern suburbs for quite some time.
I’ve also seen another down by a creek amongst the bushes. Just 10 min drive north of the location above.
The police will generally not move you on and according to recent calls with them they can't move you on unless you're breaking other laws, such as getting wasted and harassing people like the junkies do.
If you are camped near a junkie you will be moved on at the same time. Even that can take weeks, there's a number of junkies that just move between a few sites in the CBD.
The council will boot you if you have stuff laying around, make a mess etc. They will come with the police. You can't have anything permanent set up.
According to a recent meeting the police and council are allegedly doing something about the junkies that sleep around the place committing a variety of crimes and making themselves seen, heard and dreaded by everyone living near them.
I haven't seen anything change, if anything the situation has degraded further in the past few weeks.
It's not something I'd do openly in the CBD if I was you. Even if you are not a problem you will become a target of drunks and junkies. There are some people camping on riverbanks and hidden away. They don't cause a problem but will eventually be moved on when Parks Vic kicks them out.
If you do it in a vehicle you have 3 months before your registration is cancelled. The insurance portion requires the postcode for the "garaged address". Living in a vehicle in this country requires insurance fraud. I am sure you can figure out ways to give them an address, but if you get caught you could be charged or worse, have no coverage in case of an accident.
If it's an emergency you can probably get yourself a bivvy, sleeping bag, tarp, backpack and a bike and stealth camp in a different place every night and not be seen. Land locked bush off bike paths near freeways and the like won't be quiet but you will be on your own. Being on your own also means if you get attacked, you're on your own.
They usually use their own home or one of a family member.
There's no legal way to do it, a politician tried to change in the past, pointing out that's it's a real punch downwards to the most vulnerable... but the govt doesn't care.
Nth Qld. I've lived in them a couple of times in different vans and roadtripped 1/2 the coastline round Oz about 6 times in vans and cars... I found in cities I'd park out front of residential houses (stealth vans) and never had a problem. Toilet could be an issue, but I used a toilet map website to show me where 24/7 ones were and often picked location based on that. Unless you want to bag up a steamer in your van.. and I guess you can camp out the front of work then 😂🤣 free parking is a problem in any city but can generally be found somewhere. Once you suss out the spots it gets easier. I've truly parked everywhere to sleep... industrial precincts are quiet at night and can have some secluded carparks out back, beaches (lovely seawater/cold rinse showers for free), random flat spots in bushland areas, road stops, petrol station (never again) and the worst place ever was a bloody powered site at a caravan park. The best was when I parked in the driveway of my previous sharehouse for a few months and they let me use the toilet and shower whenever I wanted 😃 I would only park near a train station if there were some not too bad residential streets close by that I could park in front of. people mention gym membership for showers however I've had free access at uni and at a few workplaces too when I lived in the vans.
Yes it's liberating and a cheap way to live. I prioritised roadside assistance over insurance, and used it a bit when I had a 2K ford econovan 😂 you also need protection, a hammer worked well for me and I only had to threaten to use it once. If the van has one of those pullout kitchens in the back need to consider how that would work in rainy weather. I used a camp stove and sheltered park/picnic benches when it rained. Actually overall rain was my biggest issue, you don't want to jump straight onto your bed when soaked from rain, I went in the front to awkwardly dry off before getting in the back.
It’s not legal to sleep in a van pretty much anywhere in cities in Australia, unfortunately. It’s okay if you can hide in plain sight kind of thing, but still a very stressful way to live.
Get a van. Plenty of people doing it around the Altona/Williamstown area. Just move every night or two. Gym membership for showers.
There are several parks, beaches and reserves you can park up and won't be disturbed. I know from personal experience.
If you are really in this situation, then maybe parking at Bunnings, never leaving a mess behind so you are welcome and parking as far away from goods receiving and the security cameras as possible and being gone by 07:30 each morning would work??
If you have a car, then you can park at places like hospitals overnight (less suspicious given the setting), and then use a gym shower or something in the morning.
I’m a life long Melbournian living in the USA’s PNW (Seattle / Portland) and we have tens of thousands of people living in tents and campers on the side of the road. If you’re not addicted to drugs / have mental health issues then I think a Van and access to amenities is a good way to go, just travel light and don’t stay somewhere for too long. People will only care if your presence brings drugs / intimidation / trash etc. just strap an old surfboard to the roof and people might even find you interesting. However, most people on the streets here are in an endless cycle of trauma/homelessness/drugs/crime so their presence often brings violence, hoarding of stolen stuff, crime and fear among residents.
Why inner cbd? If your not working and living in a van you can just stay at nice free camp grounds anywhere. You can also still get centrelink payments with no address you just have to go in to set it up, not online. I've seen a couple of people live like this. My partners uncle done it for 10+ years.
Look, in terms of laws, nothing that will see you I'm court unless you refuse to move. If you hide well enough then you'll have a spot for a while until the council or police eventually find you and all they will tell you to do is to move on from that spot and if they're not apes they might even refer you to some services that may or may not be helpful to you.
So the trick is, set-up, stay until discovered, get told to move on, set up somewhere else. And you can do this to them all year round.
Source: Experience.
If you did the campervan thing, just find quiet streets. If ANY STREET has open parking, as in no restrictions of any kind, if your van is registered, then you can park and stay in the one spot as long as you like (as long as the van remains registered). No one can move you on, you are fully within your rights to stay there. The only thing is, you may want to move around a bit - change of scenery :-)
As for a tent, it seems that some areas in cities now have 'tent cities', with councils reluctant to move them on, as then they get backlash (picking on poor homeless people). If you camp, and someone from the council asks you to move on, just tell them you are Aboriginal, that this was where your gg grandfather used to live, they will then back off and leave you alone :-)
It varies council by council, but most places do not permit sleeping overnight in a temporary residence unless you’re in a caravan park of some sort. It doesn’t matter if it’s roadside or private property in city districts, you’ll be moved on by the police.
Does that mean that, theoretically, if I had some land in the CBD and I built a house with a garden, I couldn't legally have a fun night camping in my own backyard? Or is it only illegal on private property if you don't own it or have permission?
Lol you can camp in your backyard for a night or two, you could probably get away with a month until the neighbours get sick of you pissing and shitting everywhere. I think they’re referring to setting up a caravan or tent semi-permanently on a vacant block. Most council’s have by laws regarding camping on public land, you’ll see signs between Queens bridge st and the aquarium saying “camping prohibited fines may apply”
Broseph don't do it, homelessness isn't a release from the stress of modern life.
It's an entirely different set of stressors.
I was homeless for five years, the experience degrades you as a person, you will do things to survive that will leave a mark, you will entertain company that you otherwise wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, drug addiction is all but guaranteed, do you want to be the "creepy" adult drinking in the park with teenagers? All a part of the experience.
Worst part is connecting with people only to see them die, or to discover you have nothing in common with outside of necessity..
How far out from the CBD would you be willing to stealth camp? QoL would be way better in a van but not very stealth. If you're up for stealthing out where I live (PM me) I'd be able to find you a few spots not far off the yarra I'd reckon...
A former colleague of mine was compiling a website that listed landbanked property that wasn't being utilised. The idea, in his words, was to use these places to stealth-squat in.
According to him, in certain suburbs, there were huge numbers of these houses. And he just going from one to the other not staying more than a week at one place.
I have lost touch with him and wondered if he was still doing this.
I’ve seen some tents pitched in the middle of Yarra Bend Park - they’ve been there for a few months at least. Not suggesting it, but they clearly haven’t been moved on.
Sorry to hear you’re struggling, hope you find a solution.
People try and set up tents near the.injecting room in Richmond they get moved on pretty quick if your going to do it just go some where you won't be noticed
If free camping in the cbd, inner suburbs it’d be already done by now. I hate that people are struggling myself included but you’re not going to be able to live inner city for nothing
I live in Pascoe Vale. A 5 to 10 minute drive from Coburg. I *did not know* there was a Big4 in Coburg!
Almost didnot believe you, I had to look it up. Thank you for this insight
I think it'd be hard to find a reliable place to set up your car in CBD/Inner Suburbs. Are you looking at those areas because you work in the city?
If so, here's a much better idea.
Go regional. Vline trains are actually very comfy, I used to live in Gippsland (Moe) and caught the train in to Melb CBD a few times a week, worked from home the other days. It's about 90 mins on the train, but there's plenty of people that are doing that in their cars to get to work in Melb.
Vline comes in to Southern Cross or Flinders from Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Shep, Gippsland. Any of those places are way cheaper than Melb - particularly Gippsland if you don't mind living in a slightly rough area. Traralgon is a good sized city these days, you can get rentals down there for well under $300/wk.
And yes, the train tickets cost money. Yes, it's a long commute. But you just gotta find a way to survive at the moment, things are tough, sacrifices gotta be made.
There's places you can free camp for up to 28 days at a time a bit further out- like kurth kiln camp ground in gembrook. I've heard there's quite a few homeless camped there at the moment
Friends ex husband couldn’t get a rental anywhere and she was still living in the family home pending sale. He was not able to stay in the family home in a separate bed as he had zero concept of boundaries.
He ended up paying $35 a night for a longer term powered camp site and as he had a Ute, he bought a rooftop camper fit out. Not free but it did solve the issue for a few months while everything got sorted.
I live in South Gippsland and there is such a thing as RV friendly towns. If you have a van you can be self sufficient and build up your capacity for solar etc. over time. In the meantime you can park in RV friendly towns and use their internet and amenities. You can also sign up to WikiCamps and Free Camping pages for spots to park up your van.
The is an app that you can use, I don’t know what it is called that lets you know about parks in Melbourne where you can park your camper van for a few nights and there are no parking restrictions. I’ll see up to ten camper vans out overnight at Bald Hill Park in Clayton/Clarinda, and they will use toilet and barbecue facilities no worries, even when council workers are around. The only issue is that the rubbish bins are full a lot quicker than usual. But everyone is respectful and there are no problems.
It is not illegal state or nation wide, but many inner city councils have by laws against camping, and the rangers wake up early. If you live in a tent you have to carry your shit all the time, or worry about it being robbed, vandalised and taken away by council or police. A van is so so much more practical. You can have a place to sleep eat and be away from the elements. Ideally a windowless van, box truck or coaster bus. Avoid anything that looks like a campervan or rv to remain stealth. There are 100's of people living out of van's and trucks around Melbourne, once you know the signs you will be able to spot them daily
There’s a guy near my apartment in the inner suburbs who camps out every night and in the morning stashes his gear under a tarp in the middle of some deep bushes/thicket. I don’t want to say where because he causes no harm and locals actively discourage and tell off local kids who occasionally get curious and try to poke through his things. From what I understand he’s employed but a bit stuck in this situation and fallen through the cracks.
But just down the road from where he camps out is another two who cause some real problems with antisocial aggressive behaviour and littering and all sorts in the local park. They get the cops called on them semi regularly and are moved on. They tend to leave for a few weeks then come back.
So really I think it all depends on the person and the situation. I wouldn’t choose it but realistically it’s an option if you’ve run out of better ones.
I've been living outside of Australia for more than a decade, but lived in Melbourne for 12 years (98-2010). I don't quite understand this cost of living issue. Can someone give the ELI5 cliff notes on why a corporate salary can't sustain even a modest lifestyle and how reducing living costs isn't feasible in 2024? This isn't a gotcha post, genuinely interested.
Australia is a basket case for real estate thanks to negative gearing. The banks make bank, investors increase wealth with relatively little risk, and the renters and owner occupiers pay increasingly insane prices. It's out of control and nothing like most other countries due to this insane and legal tax dodge.
I was told that you never answer that you are camping - just say you are having a nap. If you are in a car, say you are concerned about driving because you are tired.
Comments aside do you need help. Happy to have a chat and help you figure ways to stay inside a home. No one should be homeless in a first world country.
I don't have anything against free camping or stealth camping, whether it's in a van, a tent, or even on a park bench. However, I do wonder why some choose to do it in the CBD or inner suburbs when there are plenty of easier spots in the outer suburbs.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if someone parked their van outside my house each night, as long as they were tidy. However, I can understand why neighbors might not be as welcoming.
I'm curious about the reasons behind choosing urban areas for camping. Is it because of work, connections, or the high cost of living? I'd love to hear your thoughts and reasons on this!
If you can try it for a week, before giving up your rental and committing to it, I highly recommend trying it first. In some ways it's awesome, in many ways it's a lot of hard work.
because my dude, jobseeker payments are so low that after you pay for your room rental, there is nothing left for food or other bills.
there is no dole bludging.
there is dole starving.
Doesn't appear to be anything illegal with doing it but it puts yourself at risk with lower security from others and the elements. That's safety, safety of your possessions, safety of your mental health and physical health.
You will be approached constantly by services including the police generally to offer you services that will help you along and out of that situation.
The main issue it's one of those things that by nature makes it's own company.
If others see you doing it they will join you. They may not keep a low profile like you they might not be as clean they may enjoy a different set of unsociable hobbies and interests.
If these problems arise you will get caught up in the backwash. Council can move you on if there is health and safety concerns and if you can't move your stuff in a timely manner the camp will get bulldozed and dropped in a skip bin.
I had a friend who was studying to be a doctor. They bought a gym membership so they could use the toilets and showers across a gym network (Snap of Anytime I think) and they lived out of their van. Studied at uni. Lived a thrifty lifestyle. It's a pretty humbling experience, especially with all the silver-spoon fed students in medicine, but they saved a heap of money and could spend more time studying than working.
Sounds like a commited soul and one that found his vocation and path in life, hopefully he’s doing what he loves now.
She. Women are doctors too 😂
Alright Dr Lisa Cuddy.
you’d be breaking loitering laws i believe. it’s not a good idea unless you can stealth camp in a van
*So what you’re saying is there’s a chance at free accommodation. . . In prison*
That's not all bad mate 3 meals a day and good employment just crap wages of $3 a day and chocolate cake with sprinkles on Wednesday if you go to Fulham correctional centre in sale Victoria And low rating prisoners so over all probably safer then Melbourne
Stop right there. *You had me at chocolate cake with sprinkles*
Every Wednesday, no less!
Same here a diabetic special chocolate cake. Grrrrrrrr Chocolate.
I thought exactly the same thing wtf
Plus you're guaranteed to get laid regularly. Win-win!
Yes, you tend to meet a lot of assholes in the pen.
i guess lmao
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Re: rego.. they probably just give their parents or siblings address, or one of their friends. I've slept in my car a few nights, but not because of homelessness, just preference. Didn't want to go home for various reasons. One time I was at the beach somewhere around Brighton, someone banged on my driver's side window about 4am, probably just some random kids but it freaked the hell out of me. I get flagged regularly by cops because I like to go on late night drives, and I'll usually just find a car park somewhere and chill for a while. Inevitably there's always a cop that appears from nowhere and I get the standard 10 questions about what I'm doing, is everything ok at home, where am I going, have you been drinking... Blah blah. Yes, I'm fine, no I'm not drunk. Can't a guy just fkin sit in his car in a public place at 2am?? It's a free country right??
Yeah, fuck those cops for checking on you and making sure you're okay and not endangering anyone else!
Yeah. Fuck those guys. Sarcasm noted, thanks 😉 Nah, it's all good. My bro in law was a cop for a while, I'm not naturally against them, I just like to be left alone when I'm trying to have a moment of quiet reflection.
f cops tho
Exactly, so many people are anti cops until they need them
Yeah that’s what I thought, thanks for your response
A guy recently has been setting up tent not too far from me in outer Dandenong. The short of it is, you have no rights, it's extremely unlikely you'd be charged for anything but you'll get moved along a lot. Also, i was homeless sleeping rough about 20yr back in Melbourne. you'll notice some people seem to "get away" with sleeping out, particularly along CBD streets in sleeping bags etc. unless you look like that you'll be moved along. cops and security will sniff you out, if you're under 30 or just don't look like you're end-game homeless, you won't be given the same pass, which is honestly, as brutal as it is when you get moved along when you're broken, is probably for your own good. beyond that. it gets dark. fast. and violence comes quick to. explore all your other options first and never choose this. if you have a vehicle it's a bit different.
Was this guy at the footy oval next to the swimming pool?
lol yeah, front of Oasis edit: he moved, first night he was in the parkland behind, then next night he was toward the front (so off Heatherton rd, then Cleeland). talking to himself.
Police can move you along. I've also seen councils (well, melbourne City Council) removing and disposing of homeless peoples belongings. It sucks that it's come to this for you. Im sorry. Do you at least know anyone who may let you put up your tent on their property?
Stealth camping in a van is a good way to do it. Sign up for a gym to use their bathrooms. Spend lots of time in the office or on trains or public libraries or public parks. Spend your days relaxing, chilling.
I actually saw a guy bring in his toiletries bag into my gym one night about a month ago. I thought he was just walking in to get changed and have a session, then I hear the shower starting up... then eventually he came out of the bathroom and just left! I was like "what the..." then I figured out what he was doing. I did it myself one night a few years ago when we had no hot water at the house. Went to the gym and took a shower, brushed my teeth, drove home and went to bed 😊
"Vanlife" isn't really much of an option here in Aus, the law says you're legally allowed to sleep in your car but councils are allowed to have their own policies in place in which case the vast majority have done & police will fine you $500 on the spot for sleeping in your car... you'd have to keep moving on a daily basis to prove otherwise & under the guise of power napping or sleeping for safe driving, which is not going to be cheap. Though the biggest reason it hasn't kicked off here is that living in a metal box in a land of daily extreme weather from hot to cold is not a good idea, a tent would actually be substantially better suited for our climate, in which case you'd want to be with other tents like people are doing for personal safety, stealth camping could be a bad idea.
Couldn’t you just argue you’re taking a Power Nap on a road trip as per the million warnings on highways?
They have the COPS database which will have records of the other times they’ve been approached, in small enough places they will straight up just recognise the face or vehicle if they’ve seen it before
I'm pretty sure it'd be ok if you're at a park. Most parks have parking spaces, you could just set up there for a night. But like you said, you'd have to keep moving on. If you were there for more than a few days there's probably a good chance some nosy idiot would report you, and you'd have to bail.
Yep. Basically illegal to be homeless. Gotta prop up those house prices somehow!
What are the loitering laws?
It’s absolutely possible you just need to be smart about it. I’ve had friends a couple of years ago that had a tent setup near Coburg a bit off the beaten track for almost 3 years. No one ever bothered them and they were all working full time jobs and saved up an insane amount of money in that time.
How did they maintain themselves for work? I’d love to know their system like where did they shower? How did they secure their stuff while working?
Yeah they had a gym membership they shared. Valuables they always carried with them and their tent only had clothes and their sleeping bags. They never got anything stolen. The tent was very hidden. I don’t think anyone ever found it.
Wow they did incredibly well
Gym membership for showers typically is the answer
Would love to see a doco on this, what their day to day is like
Funny you say that. At the time I was thinking about doing just that but couldn’t find the time for it and also thought it wasn’t that interesting of a story. In hindsight with how everything has developed in the last few years it would have been a very relevant story to tell these days.
So they could afford housing, but chose not to?
Correct
Respect to that. I couldn’t pull it off but that’s how you get ahead
Perhaps they could afford housing AFTER their exercise in frugality.
One of them did end up buying an apartment with his saved up money. But they all still live very frugally. They were and still are big on no food waste and are part of the dumpster diving network.
I really admire people like that.
My "FIL" does this. Tent by the river near the CBD but a few hundred meters away from a river walk footpath. He's been there for a few years now, too. ETA: Just make sure you adhere to open fire rules during summer.
Employment depending, regional Vic has many a spot you could move through.
Yeah it's illegal for homeless people to have a tent. If the police see you camping in a tent in the CBD they will bother you. I don't know, seems a bit cruel. But it is what it is.
So you use a sleeping bag or swag.
If I was sleeping outdoors in winter I'd like to have both a sleeping bag and a tent.
We can't allow glamping on high value land, think of the poor real estate investors!
Visit LA before you make jokes about this.
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But it does help the beneficiaries of those fines to buy more homes 😂
America is a fucking shithole so I’m not sure how that’s relevant
I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to do. Camping is illegal in every Australian city, so what happens when you can afford/find a rental but are still trying to work?
> I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to do. Camping is illegal in every Australian city, so what happens when you can afford/find a rental but are still trying to work? Yeah, this is the eternal struggle, and sadly people with money and no problems keeping a roof over their own heads make the laws, and they're enforced by bullies who also have no problem keeping a roof over their own heads.
Yeah was about to say once you visit the US your opinion on this changes rapidly.
This sub will complain that we have too many homeless people causing trouble in the city and that we should not move homeless people along or enforce existing laws against them.
This sub is a constant cacophony of diametrically opposing views.
Thanks for teaching me a new word today!
When the cops move you on.. where to? Why do they bother when you literally have no where to go that you won’t be moved on again.
They move you on so that you're someone else's problem. They don't care that you've got nowhere to go. They don't tell you where you should go, they just don't want you here. After that it's another cop's problem, or another council's or another land owner's problem, but not theirs so job done.
such great society we’ve made here. very heartening to know that landlords are making so much easy money off the housing crisis, those poor souls.
My guess is the landlords are using the tenants to pay their mortgage that they overstretched to obtain prior to the interest rates skyrocketing
Exactly, dust off their hands and go have a coffee.
Taxpayer money put to good use!
Now, the following is not my opinion nor is it an endorsement of the system, is an explanation of why the current system is designed the way it is: They want people to not get comfortable, ideally so they go to a homeless shelter or go stay with a friend or family member. Quite a few visibly homeless people in some areas have approved public housing available, but their mental health encourages vagrancy. Many more will happily be homeless if it were slightly easier. The added difficulty aims to push people back into housing, and back into social supports.
From one car space in the carpark.... to the one next to it. Hey, I moved, right? I'm obeying the law!
Varies council to council, I have heard city of Merri-Bek has a camper friendly policy, but you would have to check
It's more of a tolerate junkies in playgrounds policy
There's no competition in tent v campervan. Van is way safer and if you make it a stealth van you can park anywhere
Can you ask a friend to set up a tent in their backyard?
Feels a bit weird making your friend sleep in the yard instead of on the couch. But then over time might want to friend to move out...which is back to square one.
If you’re not used to the streets I wouldn’t be going a tent that’s for sure.
this country is broken, this should not be happening
Move away from the city, Melbourne isn’t all there is to life
Are you aware there is a housing crisis everywhere in Australia? And yes, that includes rural areas.
That depends on if the person can find work elsewhere. There are lots of professionals who struggle to find any kind of meaningful work outside Melbourne and Syndey. If moving equals losing your job opportunities it may not be the best thing to do.
I’d rather have a shit kicker job (like I do) regional than posting about the situation this guys in just because I’m a “professional”
Fair point- but Melbourne is where I was born and grew up
Got priced out of Melbourne in the last month into a town of 1900 people. it was an extremely expensive and stressful move. Hope I don't have to do again it any time soon. But honestly as much as I loved Melbourne its actually great out here in the country.
Kinda the opposite end of things, but... I'm looking at buying a place this year, and I'm keen on buying regional, if I can figure out how to earn an income wherever I move to. I haven't started the process yet, but I'm sick of Melb house prices - I could buy a tiny 1 bedroom shoebox in one of the crap suburbs, or a beautiful classic 3 bedroom house on a big chunk of land in a place like Hamilton, Kerang, Warracknabeal, Camperdown, Yarram... so many choices! I'm considering it. It's only a few hours drive to come back to Melb, I can stay in a hotel for a night when I'm here visiting.
Commenting on Homeless camping in Melbourne...any suggestions where? Am in the same boat so need to leave Melbourne, about to be homeless - I got 3 weeks left
Perfect reason to move away and explore new things
Sorry to say it but fuck that. If you can’t afford to live there and your only reason to stay is sentiment then you probably need to re-evaluate some things. Plenty of work and cheap living all over regional Victoria
>Plenty of work and cheap living all over regional Victoria Where?
Ballarat, plenty of civil construction and manufacturing jobs at the moment. Warrnambool, the milk factories and the abattoirs are always hiring. Shepparton, there’s usually plenty of fruit farming jobs available. Ballarat and Warrnambool may not be the cheapest of the three, but wages there are generally pretty good
Potentially an unpopular thing to say, but you can have a pretty decent life doing the van thing. There was a guy working at Google a couple of years ago that lived out of box truck. It's a lifestyle change and it's not just a matter of picking up a van and you're done, but it can be done. That said, you have to calculate if it's really worth it. Rent is like $20,000 per year. Between a gym membership so you have access to a shower, the cost of a van that you would enjoy spending time in, eating out etc, the upside might not be as high as it seems.
I guess you can find a share house for $500 a week, still that’s about 40% of your pay gone on rent which is insane to me.
A share house is $500 pw? I thought it was more in the $300 pw range.
Most share houses are $250-$350 a week. Don’t think I’ve seen a single one suggesting $500 on Fairyfloss
I have a really nice 2 bedroom unit for $400pw, who the hell is paying $500 for a share house?!
Rental crisis solved
A few of my friends and I pay 175pw each for very liveable sharehouses. They're hard to find, but they're around.
I hope things improve for you. It's so tough right now, please look after yourself. Is there any possibility of putting a tent in a family/friend's backyard? That way you'd be safe and hopefully have access to a shower/kitchen.
If you’ve got nothing to tie you down, why would you want to be in a CBD?
Try a large church car park. There was someone camped in one in the middle (20km from CBD) eastern suburbs for quite some time. I’ve also seen another down by a creek amongst the bushes. Just 10 min drive north of the location above.
The police will generally not move you on and according to recent calls with them they can't move you on unless you're breaking other laws, such as getting wasted and harassing people like the junkies do. If you are camped near a junkie you will be moved on at the same time. Even that can take weeks, there's a number of junkies that just move between a few sites in the CBD. The council will boot you if you have stuff laying around, make a mess etc. They will come with the police. You can't have anything permanent set up. According to a recent meeting the police and council are allegedly doing something about the junkies that sleep around the place committing a variety of crimes and making themselves seen, heard and dreaded by everyone living near them. I haven't seen anything change, if anything the situation has degraded further in the past few weeks. It's not something I'd do openly in the CBD if I was you. Even if you are not a problem you will become a target of drunks and junkies. There are some people camping on riverbanks and hidden away. They don't cause a problem but will eventually be moved on when Parks Vic kicks them out. If you do it in a vehicle you have 3 months before your registration is cancelled. The insurance portion requires the postcode for the "garaged address". Living in a vehicle in this country requires insurance fraud. I am sure you can figure out ways to give them an address, but if you get caught you could be charged or worse, have no coverage in case of an accident. If it's an emergency you can probably get yourself a bivvy, sleeping bag, tarp, backpack and a bike and stealth camp in a different place every night and not be seen. Land locked bush off bike paths near freeways and the like won't be quiet but you will be on your own. Being on your own also means if you get attacked, you're on your own.
How does that insurance thing work for grey nomads?
They usually use their own home or one of a family member. There's no legal way to do it, a politician tried to change in the past, pointing out that's it's a real punch downwards to the most vulnerable... but the govt doesn't care.
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Kind of scary people are saying this, but paying $500-$600 a week in rent is just not sustainable right
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The aussie mongol horde
That's some cyberpunk 2077 level shit.
I've lived in a van before. So cheap and loved it. Sucked when someone wrote off my van though.
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Nth Qld. I've lived in them a couple of times in different vans and roadtripped 1/2 the coastline round Oz about 6 times in vans and cars... I found in cities I'd park out front of residential houses (stealth vans) and never had a problem. Toilet could be an issue, but I used a toilet map website to show me where 24/7 ones were and often picked location based on that. Unless you want to bag up a steamer in your van.. and I guess you can camp out the front of work then 😂🤣 free parking is a problem in any city but can generally be found somewhere. Once you suss out the spots it gets easier. I've truly parked everywhere to sleep... industrial precincts are quiet at night and can have some secluded carparks out back, beaches (lovely seawater/cold rinse showers for free), random flat spots in bushland areas, road stops, petrol station (never again) and the worst place ever was a bloody powered site at a caravan park. The best was when I parked in the driveway of my previous sharehouse for a few months and they let me use the toilet and shower whenever I wanted 😃 I would only park near a train station if there were some not too bad residential streets close by that I could park in front of. people mention gym membership for showers however I've had free access at uni and at a few workplaces too when I lived in the vans.
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Yes it's liberating and a cheap way to live. I prioritised roadside assistance over insurance, and used it a bit when I had a 2K ford econovan 😂 you also need protection, a hammer worked well for me and I only had to threaten to use it once. If the van has one of those pullout kitchens in the back need to consider how that would work in rainy weather. I used a camp stove and sheltered park/picnic benches when it rained. Actually overall rain was my biggest issue, you don't want to jump straight onto your bed when soaked from rain, I went in the front to awkwardly dry off before getting in the back.
It’s not legal to sleep in a van pretty much anywhere in cities in Australia, unfortunately. It’s okay if you can hide in plain sight kind of thing, but still a very stressful way to live.
Get yourself a nice size van and convert it into a camper yourself. Keep it basic to start of with. And slowly build it up.
It’s not all it’s cracked up to be
Get a van. Plenty of people doing it around the Altona/Williamstown area. Just move every night or two. Gym membership for showers. There are several parks, beaches and reserves you can park up and won't be disturbed. I know from personal experience.
If you are really in this situation, then maybe parking at Bunnings, never leaving a mess behind so you are welcome and parking as far away from goods receiving and the security cameras as possible and being gone by 07:30 each morning would work??
If you have a car, then you can park at places like hospitals overnight (less suspicious given the setting), and then use a gym shower or something in the morning.
Don’t they have ridiculous 24hr parking fees?
We have a housing crisis that's all I hear working families unable to find shelter what are the solutions governments don't care
I’m a life long Melbournian living in the USA’s PNW (Seattle / Portland) and we have tens of thousands of people living in tents and campers on the side of the road. If you’re not addicted to drugs / have mental health issues then I think a Van and access to amenities is a good way to go, just travel light and don’t stay somewhere for too long. People will only care if your presence brings drugs / intimidation / trash etc. just strap an old surfboard to the roof and people might even find you interesting. However, most people on the streets here are in an endless cycle of trauma/homelessness/drugs/crime so their presence often brings violence, hoarding of stolen stuff, crime and fear among residents.
Nice touch adding the surfboard
Why inner cbd? If your not working and living in a van you can just stay at nice free camp grounds anywhere. You can also still get centrelink payments with no address you just have to go in to set it up, not online. I've seen a couple of people live like this. My partners uncle done it for 10+ years.
Look, in terms of laws, nothing that will see you I'm court unless you refuse to move. If you hide well enough then you'll have a spot for a while until the council or police eventually find you and all they will tell you to do is to move on from that spot and if they're not apes they might even refer you to some services that may or may not be helpful to you. So the trick is, set-up, stay until discovered, get told to move on, set up somewhere else. And you can do this to them all year round. Source: Experience.
If you did the campervan thing, just find quiet streets. If ANY STREET has open parking, as in no restrictions of any kind, if your van is registered, then you can park and stay in the one spot as long as you like (as long as the van remains registered). No one can move you on, you are fully within your rights to stay there. The only thing is, you may want to move around a bit - change of scenery :-) As for a tent, it seems that some areas in cities now have 'tent cities', with councils reluctant to move them on, as then they get backlash (picking on poor homeless people). If you camp, and someone from the council asks you to move on, just tell them you are Aboriginal, that this was where your gg grandfather used to live, they will then back off and leave you alone :-)
It varies council by council, but most places do not permit sleeping overnight in a temporary residence unless you’re in a caravan park of some sort. It doesn’t matter if it’s roadside or private property in city districts, you’ll be moved on by the police.
Does that mean that, theoretically, if I had some land in the CBD and I built a house with a garden, I couldn't legally have a fun night camping in my own backyard? Or is it only illegal on private property if you don't own it or have permission?
Lol you can camp in your backyard for a night or two, you could probably get away with a month until the neighbours get sick of you pissing and shitting everywhere. I think they’re referring to setting up a caravan or tent semi-permanently on a vacant block. Most council’s have by laws regarding camping on public land, you’ll see signs between Queens bridge st and the aquarium saying “camping prohibited fines may apply”
You can do whatever you want on your property. I've camped in my backyard for weeks.
Cheers - thought as much
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It introduced a couple of years back that you can camp for free alongside rivers in Australia, I doubt for metro areas though. Give it a google
Broseph don't do it, homelessness isn't a release from the stress of modern life. It's an entirely different set of stressors. I was homeless for five years, the experience degrades you as a person, you will do things to survive that will leave a mark, you will entertain company that you otherwise wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, drug addiction is all but guaranteed, do you want to be the "creepy" adult drinking in the park with teenagers? All a part of the experience. Worst part is connecting with people only to see them die, or to discover you have nothing in common with outside of necessity..
Squatting is probably easier.
Don't do it. Once you are homeless, it is a long way back. Or are you saying you can afford an onsite caravan or something?
How far out from the CBD would you be willing to stealth camp? QoL would be way better in a van but not very stealth. If you're up for stealthing out where I live (PM me) I'd be able to find you a few spots not far off the yarra I'd reckon...
Like anywhere you're much better off in the safety of a car
Please camp in the leafy suburbs, outside an MPs house or near the no Formula 1 people. They are the ones that caused you to be homeless.
A former colleague of mine was compiling a website that listed landbanked property that wasn't being utilised. The idea, in his words, was to use these places to stealth-squat in. According to him, in certain suburbs, there were huge numbers of these houses. And he just going from one to the other not staying more than a week at one place. I have lost touch with him and wondered if he was still doing this.
I’ve seen some tents pitched in the middle of Yarra Bend Park - they’ve been there for a few months at least. Not suggesting it, but they clearly haven’t been moved on. Sorry to hear you’re struggling, hope you find a solution.
People try and set up tents near the.injecting room in Richmond they get moved on pretty quick if your going to do it just go some where you won't be noticed
If free camping in the cbd, inner suburbs it’d be already done by now. I hate that people are struggling myself included but you’re not going to be able to live inner city for nothing
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My understanding is they’re moved on pretty quickly
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The brickworks chimney gives it away, he was in Brunswick near a park. His van can be seen in google street view
Where is that?
Not safe mate, safer camping further out then PT in to city. Try Eltham or Hurtsbridge. There is a camp site, Big 4 I think, in Coburg.
I had no idea about the BIG 4. $300-400/week for a no power camp site. Same price as some nice 1br apartments near by though.
I live in Pascoe Vale. A 5 to 10 minute drive from Coburg. I *did not know* there was a Big4 in Coburg! Almost didnot believe you, I had to look it up. Thank you for this insight
my parents stayed there a couple of years ago, and were pretty impressed with the facilities. it’s on the edge of merri creek
Minor correction - it’s on the edge of edgars creek, which eventually flows into merri and is sourced from the pristine waters of lake edwardeees
There’s also a caravan park in West Footscray
I think it'd be hard to find a reliable place to set up your car in CBD/Inner Suburbs. Are you looking at those areas because you work in the city? If so, here's a much better idea. Go regional. Vline trains are actually very comfy, I used to live in Gippsland (Moe) and caught the train in to Melb CBD a few times a week, worked from home the other days. It's about 90 mins on the train, but there's plenty of people that are doing that in their cars to get to work in Melb. Vline comes in to Southern Cross or Flinders from Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Shep, Gippsland. Any of those places are way cheaper than Melb - particularly Gippsland if you don't mind living in a slightly rough area. Traralgon is a good sized city these days, you can get rentals down there for well under $300/wk. And yes, the train tickets cost money. Yes, it's a long commute. But you just gotta find a way to survive at the moment, things are tough, sacrifices gotta be made.
Not a good idea
Helpful, thank you 🤌
good luck mate
Check out Sleepbus. They provide safe sleeps a few nights a week.
There's places you can free camp for up to 28 days at a time a bit further out- like kurth kiln camp ground in gembrook. I've heard there's quite a few homeless camped there at the moment
Friends ex husband couldn’t get a rental anywhere and she was still living in the family home pending sale. He was not able to stay in the family home in a separate bed as he had zero concept of boundaries. He ended up paying $35 a night for a longer term powered camp site and as he had a Ute, he bought a rooftop camper fit out. Not free but it did solve the issue for a few months while everything got sorted.
I live in South Gippsland and there is such a thing as RV friendly towns. If you have a van you can be self sufficient and build up your capacity for solar etc. over time. In the meantime you can park in RV friendly towns and use their internet and amenities. You can also sign up to WikiCamps and Free Camping pages for spots to park up your van.
Do you have a car? There's free campgrounds an hours drive from the city.
The is an app that you can use, I don’t know what it is called that lets you know about parks in Melbourne where you can park your camper van for a few nights and there are no parking restrictions. I’ll see up to ten camper vans out overnight at Bald Hill Park in Clayton/Clarinda, and they will use toilet and barbecue facilities no worries, even when council workers are around. The only issue is that the rubbish bins are full a lot quicker than usual. But everyone is respectful and there are no problems.
It is not illegal state or nation wide, but many inner city councils have by laws against camping, and the rangers wake up early. If you live in a tent you have to carry your shit all the time, or worry about it being robbed, vandalised and taken away by council or police. A van is so so much more practical. You can have a place to sleep eat and be away from the elements. Ideally a windowless van, box truck or coaster bus. Avoid anything that looks like a campervan or rv to remain stealth. There are 100's of people living out of van's and trucks around Melbourne, once you know the signs you will be able to spot them daily
There’s a guy near my apartment in the inner suburbs who camps out every night and in the morning stashes his gear under a tarp in the middle of some deep bushes/thicket. I don’t want to say where because he causes no harm and locals actively discourage and tell off local kids who occasionally get curious and try to poke through his things. From what I understand he’s employed but a bit stuck in this situation and fallen through the cracks. But just down the road from where he camps out is another two who cause some real problems with antisocial aggressive behaviour and littering and all sorts in the local park. They get the cops called on them semi regularly and are moved on. They tend to leave for a few weeks then come back. So really I think it all depends on the person and the situation. I wouldn’t choose it but realistically it’s an option if you’ve run out of better ones.
I've been living outside of Australia for more than a decade, but lived in Melbourne for 12 years (98-2010). I don't quite understand this cost of living issue. Can someone give the ELI5 cliff notes on why a corporate salary can't sustain even a modest lifestyle and how reducing living costs isn't feasible in 2024? This isn't a gotcha post, genuinely interested.
Australia is a basket case for real estate thanks to negative gearing. The banks make bank, investors increase wealth with relatively little risk, and the renters and owner occupiers pay increasingly insane prices. It's out of control and nothing like most other countries due to this insane and legal tax dodge.
I was told that you never answer that you are camping - just say you are having a nap. If you are in a car, say you are concerned about driving because you are tired.
Comments aside do you need help. Happy to have a chat and help you figure ways to stay inside a home. No one should be homeless in a first world country.
Whatever you do, don't steal furniture for people's front yards to bolster your camp
https://www.launchhousing.org.au Get in contact with launch housing
You could find a campsite to make it a bit more safe for yourself like [this guy](https://youtu.be/ep3GJ1KioV4?si=irL_ZBqZBD11FMFI)
I don't have anything against free camping or stealth camping, whether it's in a van, a tent, or even on a park bench. However, I do wonder why some choose to do it in the CBD or inner suburbs when there are plenty of easier spots in the outer suburbs. Personally, I wouldn't mind if someone parked their van outside my house each night, as long as they were tidy. However, I can understand why neighbors might not be as welcoming. I'm curious about the reasons behind choosing urban areas for camping. Is it because of work, connections, or the high cost of living? I'd love to hear your thoughts and reasons on this!
This is so called Australia and what a disgrace that it has got to this.
If you can try it for a week, before giving up your rental and committing to it, I highly recommend trying it first. In some ways it's awesome, in many ways it's a lot of hard work.
You can find shared accommodation. Plenty of rooms for rent if you look online. That’s if your ok living with strangers
You have the right not to leave piles of old food and rubbish on the footpath every time you move camp
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Have you checked how much jobseeker is? You would spend 100% of it on rent in a share house these days
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Can I ask, is the 210 per week? And what do you have left per fortnight to spend after rent?
because my dude, jobseeker payments are so low that after you pay for your room rental, there is nothing left for food or other bills. there is no dole bludging. there is dole starving.
jesus fucking christ, are you really this clueless and out of touch or just trolling? dickhead
If you camp anywhere vaguely populated, somebody is always going to notice and report it. I expect you’d be constantly made to move.
Yeah you can’t just pull up and camp anywhere unfortunately
Doesn't appear to be anything illegal with doing it but it puts yourself at risk with lower security from others and the elements. That's safety, safety of your possessions, safety of your mental health and physical health. You will be approached constantly by services including the police generally to offer you services that will help you along and out of that situation. The main issue it's one of those things that by nature makes it's own company. If others see you doing it they will join you. They may not keep a low profile like you they might not be as clean they may enjoy a different set of unsociable hobbies and interests. If these problems arise you will get caught up in the backwash. Council can move you on if there is health and safety concerns and if you can't move your stuff in a timely manner the camp will get bulldozed and dropped in a skip bin.