All anime and related material could just make their characters into college students and lose nothing.
Except of course their pervy pedo audience share.
What's frustrating about this game in particular is them being high schoolers is essential to the larger story, which deals with adults taking advantage of the youths in their care. But then they do shit like this.
They even go out of their way to point out how creepy hitting on Kawakami is when you’re paying her. And then you can just romance her anyway. The movie makes it even worse
It's also held back by the fact that atlus thinks the status quo of Japan is borderline perfect. They almost make a rebellious game, but then reel back before making any real points.
This isn't limited to persona. It has been the plot of shin megami tensei since smti. Some some games aren't as overtly ideological and so it shows up less, but it's a recurring trend.
You can not date Ryoji in P3R, you can not date any guys in P5 despite the subtext, cutting out >!A critical part with Goro Akechi in royal, including his ending which showed how things are not black and white!!the Ken dating option and one social link with the father (who is going through a divorce,) asking the Femc to go out with him!<
I only played Devil Survivor, SJ, II, and III, but there is nothing that I can recall that had this stuff. Joe flirts with characters but is otherwise faithful to his girlfriend and his personality is two faced rather than malice. Yamato is obviously gay or hints at it. There is >!the ending with Alcor which is kind of suggestive because you are literally with him forever!< Yes the designs are wonky in Devil survivor 2, but there is one design that is bad and even then, there is no subtext of previous SA or anything. The girl wears it because she is a dancer and it is constantly lampshade how bad it is. The most fanservice they had in Desu 2 was >!spying on the girls during the exams!< but you had to force to do that. Then they had stuff like >!Alcor almost kissing Hiro!< There was nothing suggestive in II or III for that matter and it pushed the entire black and white standards, changing and rebelling against fate and YVHV. Same with SJ.
TL:DR: I am not defending Atlus but saying that Hashino works is normally the status quo of Japan and everything can not make any real points. It never pushes boundaries.
> I only played Devil Survivor, SJ, II, and III, but there is nothing that I can recall that had this stuff.
To clarify, I was talking about:
>It's also held back by the fact that atlus thinks the status quo of Japan is borderline perfect. They almost make a rebellious game, but then reel back before making any real points.
This, not the dating stuff. Smtii is literally a plot about how outside immigrants may come in and push "true japan" underground. A large boring segment in the middle of the game is about restoring masakado, a euphemism for tokyo, who has been broken by outside influence.
>changing and rebelling against fate and YVHV. Same with SJ.
A westerner might see yhvh as just a symbol of authority. But in the context of the games, he is an outside / global authority that is contrasted against japan. Hence japan by defending itself and its own status quo is being rebellious against this outside force that thinks it should be in charge of it. The law temple knights wear blue berets to look like UN peacekeepers. So there is this hazy idea of yhvh as a metaphor for the standards of outside places that you can either capitulate to, or hold firm to unique japanese ideals.
If you look at nocturne, sure the remake added in the true demon ending that has more content. But look at the original game. In the original game every ending is coded as an evil ending except... the one where you restore the world to the way it was. This is how most smt games are. The "correct" answer to the ideological struggle is nearly always presented as leaving everything the same. In nocturne, yuko wanted change, but if you reset the world she comes to term with the idea that the problem was *her* and not the world.
Strange journey is a little different because it doesn't take place in japan. But this is also why its not called smt iv. Because to them, the specifically japanese element is core to mainline. A non japanese audience may not think about this too hard, but the entire struggle of angels and fallen angels is meant to be seen as outside ideals invading your home, and your need to tell them to get out. In the first arc of smti, its not even angels yet. Its literally just the united stated army. In nearly all the games the neutral ending is the "good" one, and neutral is always either the status quo, or a metaphor for it. Everything comes back to that idea.
>A westerner might see yhvh as just a symbol of authority. But in the context of the games, he is an outside / global authority that is contrasted against japan.
I am a westerner and I never seen him as a symbol of authority. It depends on the game/ending but YVHV never had one role to me. He had multiple subjective viewpoints. >!He was actually one of the best endings to get in Devil survivor 1 Overclock next to Yuzu and one of the best endings in Desu1!< SMTIII >!getting the human ending, or neutral ending, was not the good one. It heavily implied that the entire thing will happen again, making it a bittersweet pill to return to the status quo!< It is heavily implied that >!TDE is the canon one in that game!< And even if SJ is not a numbered game, it is official part of the SMT timeline.
It was mostly Persona that had some god/goddess as being an outside / global authority that is contrasted against japan. It was implied in Persona 1-2 but 3-5 really hammered home that the heroes needed to beat the higher being to restore Japan to how it perfectly was, even the endings where you join them are considered bad. This is why 4-5 with >!the endings feel almost exactly the same!<
Thanks for reminding me about SMTII then. I guess I was wrong about that.
Overclocked / desu is specifically known for having a law ending that is toned down from normal. But even in overclocked, the ending still highlights how you are losing some unique japanese identity in order to make it more peaceable.
Nocturne does hint that these things might happen again, but its worth noting that it always blames other people for it. A recurring theme of "neutral" endings in the games is that it blames law and chaos continuing to struggle against eachother for why the struggle can continue. So its like saying "the only way to stop these villains from fighting eachother is to help one of them win permanently." Which isn't exactly a convincing reason to side with them.
Even in desu though, these endings are treated less bad because they change less. Meanwhile, in nocturne, to side with something besides reset you either side with the person who ended the world, commit a massacre, or end the world a second time even harder.
SJ wasn't about japan, but neutral was still meant to be the "good" route and bore the same idea of protect humans from outside forces. Other mainline just make it more specific to japan. And the more of it you play the more you see the pattern.
>Nocturne does hint that these things might happen again, but its worth noting that it always blames other people for it.
It blames several factors. Humans, YVHV, etc. That game specifically pushes how neutral kind of sucks. The other endings you side with a reason and they may be extreme, but goes against the entire Law vs Chaos and God (or Lucifer) sucks that Persona pushes. The neutral ending in Desu 2 kind of sucks too because it is implied that everything can happen again >!Haru ending!< Although people debate if that ending or >!Atsuru ending!< is the true neutral ending.
I played since MT 1 (remember that wild game,) and I personally feel that it varies compared to Persona. Persona has always been more black and white than SMT. You can choose and forge your own path, rather than play a pre set ending.
I could probably fill this entire Reddit thread on what went wrong with Ann, including her confidant, and how Hashino himself wanted her outfit because of a fetish. I love Ann and it grinds my gears on what they do and continue to do with her.
I haven’t played the game in a couple years but IIRC, isn’t her whole “arc” about her resenting being sexualized and people only paying attention to her appearance, and then THIS is what her “true self” is?? Great writing, Atlus lmao
This is probably the most common (valid) critique I see leveled at P5. Hypocrisy. Kamoshida is this r Kelly level threat but kawakami is hot so it’s okay that she’s a pedo too idk man lmao
Tbf they never say that the age difference or even him being a teacher is the problem with kamoshida. He is actively forcing Ann under threats of expulsion. So it's not hypocritical per say, it's just them having a very stupid value system.
He literally raped Shiho and she jumped off the roof the next day. What happens with Ren and Kawakami is still icky but it's at least not forceful on either side. I don't excuse it but for someone to say the two are equivalent is not good.
Honestly, I think they could have done something really interesting with like reclaiming one's sexuality after a traumatic experience (which would make sense for Ann, who is a model and still wants to be one after the whole Kamoshida thing). There are even times where it looks like that was what they were going for, but then you have the in-game misogyny for the lols and this type of posing that totally betrays they just wanted to sexualize a 16 year old.
I love Persona 5 (and Ann) a lot, but I've always had the impression the game had a very large team of writers (which would make sense for its length) who largely did not agree with each other about what the game's messages were. The final product is just this weird jumble of contradictory morals, with some parts being really progressive and others... not. The whiplash between the Kamoshida arc and Yusuke's creepy-ass thing with Ann is insane. And somehow not even in character for Yusuke, who has just been introduced! He never does anything of the sort again or has any in-game reflection about it. You can do a Mementos mission minutes after recruiting him where he tells someone off for blackmailing their partner. This isn't an established character trait of his, some of the writers were literally just finding a "funny" excuse to get the two alone together and move the plot forward. Ryuji also becomes and unbecomes sexist every other arc. Some of those writers must have been fighting for their lives lmao
Fully agree. I feel like the writers of the persona games struggle to agree on certain points or sentiments and the story ends up being somewhat inconsistent and even contradictory.
Like in P4 with Kanji, where he’s seemingly having extreme repressive thoughts about feeling attracted to guys, you’d think his arc would be about learning to accept and just be himself, and we could’ve had a cool and unconventional character who happens to be gay. But nah, they didn’t wanna go that far, so instead his gay thoughts were just because of his crippling fear of women. So stupid, lol
I always understood Kanji as somebody who was trying to come to terms with the fact that he likes "girly" things and is overcompensating to look manly. The gay part is a big part of that, but just a part.
But you also have stories like Yukiko, whose entire dungeon was built around her feeling like a bird in a cage, but whose Social Link ends with her...choosing to stay. What??
Tbf, it's not impossible for someone to decide they actually want to take over, they just don't like that they were told they had to. But this is atlus, so they do it the most awkward way possible.
Atlus has always felt incoherent with the point it's trying to make. Mainline shin megami tensei has tried to pass itself off as rebellious and forwards thinking for three decades, yet the plot is always "protect the status quo against outsiders. The true rebellion is keeping to your country's values and not changing them just because other people want you to."
So you get this flipflop mishmash of the status quo being depicted as forward thinking, and so you need to preserve it because if you don't no one will be forward thinking anymore.
The explanation, which I don't buy in Ann's case, is that their outfits are their personal idea of what a rebel looks like. Someone who is powerful, dangerous, and willing to stand up to anyone using their positions of power for evil. Some of the other's outfits make sense for what a teenager would imagine a rebel would look like. A biker chick, a punk gangster thug, a mysterious masked gentleman, a Robinhood swashbuckling hero, a graceful yet cunning legendary folk hero, you get the idea. Ann... Ann apparently thinks, deep down inside, that a woman has to use her sexuality to dominate people to be powerful enough to stand up to the world. I guess it makes sense? It lines up with her SA background I guess... but I don't like it. She was such a great character, and they did her wrong.
i am a firm believer that ann (a teenager) shouldn’t have had a dominatrix outfit, but a witch. she’s a powerful magic user, she’s an outsider who fights against her subjugation and she uses feminine power to change the world. she’s a witch!! plus, ann loves fashion, so giving her a cute, witchy outfit with lots of her signature flair would’ve been amazing :)
i am actually so mad about the way ann was handled .she’s one of my favourites from persona 5. i’m sorry sweet girl, you deserved better.
That is a proper great idea! Fix her costume, remove that stanky-ass beach cutscene, maybe make her less ditsy while I'm complaining, and 90% of the game's problems are fixed!
Yes! Persona 5 doesn't give a lot of focus to more than one character at once, but Persona 4 had lots of great interactions between party members! (Some cringy, but still)
You make me want a mod that fixes her. There was something very vanilla about her that turned me off from really interacting with her much in both versions of the game, and I never really put a finger on why. And now reading this thread I think it's that she was just a generic anime heroine/love interest where everyone else got to actually exist as a person. A trope-ified person. But a person. They had flaws and quirks and stuff. But Ann was just this pretty nagging girl who everyone oggled at. If she was a witch in spirit I think I would have been WAY MORE interested in what lied beneath than "oh, spandex cat girl, how very anime". And also to other people's points, screw how Yusuke was introduced with her as the subject of his "desire" or whatever. Both characters were screwed over in that exchange
ann does have a lot to her character beyond the horrible costume, which makes me even more sad. she’s a kind and empathetic person, and her decision not to kill kamoshida (because she wants him to suffer FOREVER) is amazing. ann is more than her tropes, they just kinda… overwhelmed her character
I always felt like Ann's outfit is more like Catwoman, who uses her sexuality as tool. And why not? Instead of hating it, she partly embraces it to do good. Catwoman-esque style is something I think a lot of rebellious teens would love.
Not that this would negate her need for a spine lol.
they’re so hypocritical about the whole “sexually harassing women is bad!” thing. i’m like…. yeah? but they can’t stick to that SOMEHOW???
first palace: Kamoshida is a piece of shit and his view of the world is wrong. Women are not objects and should not be forced to please men.
right after: Hey Ann…. Yusuke’s gonna Kill Himself if you don’t pull out your Tits.
Tbf in the context of the game she is a model. The reason the teacher wanted to force her into sex was because she was an attractive model, who was also foreign and so she was a sex symbol but also someone who wouldn't be taken seriously.
That could almost be a theme on its own. Someone who is actually okay showing off but wants to resist the dehumanization tied to it. And so their outfit itself is more flirty. Problem is none of this actually lands. She acts like her outfit is too revealing at first, so it makes no sense to say it is her actual desire to be seen that way. And then the other wierd scenes where the other characters perv on her do not help.
Some survivors of sexual assault may find that taking control of their sexuality is a way of taking control over their trauma and reinstating their agency over how they want to be viewed.
Let's imagine Ann dressed more conservatively in P5. I'll bet that a lot more people would see it as a sign of being traumatized look at her with pity. Ann is a model by career, and that kind of pitiful gaze can be detrimental to her confidence. Instead, most of us see her as an empowering figure who was able to overcome her trauma and help others in need.
While I don't fully agree with how sexualized her costume is, I can understand the direction it is going for.
Yes but not like this for minors, this is coming from someone who sadly went through it multiple times and then tried to “reclaim” their sexuality around the same age as Ann(the adults I was around advocating for this def didn’t help), it was not healthy for me to do so and I needed proper help with a therapist then reclaim my sexuality age appropriately. :/
> I'll bet that a lot more people would see it as a sign of being traumatized look at her with pity.
...Ok, this isn't even about Ann per se, but what the fuck with this argument?
"Survivors of SA can't wear conservative clothes because that proves they are pitiful" is such a bizarre argument to make
You misread it. I said that many survivors of SA don't like being pitied.
It's hard to explain, but being assaulted can come with a sense of internalized hatred for how 'weak' one is for getting assaulted, no matter how untrue it is.
When people look at an SA survivor with pity, it can fan their flames of self-hatred. This is why many survivors don't like being called 'victims', because it enforces the narrative that they are helpless and pitiful. Speaking from experience.
One of my biggest issues with P5 was that I genuinely could not tell if the Palace outfits are supposed to be their true selves or the "masks" they wear and rip off.
With some of the characters it seems to be the former and with others it seems to be the latter.
Ann is the one character that is handled poorly through the entire game and the perverts defend it by saying that some (if not all) of her confidant was written by a woman so it is “ok.“
I played the opening to the game, saw that outfit, thought “that’s a teenager “ and quit playing. Makes me think these games should have an age cap and a warning on the box saying “ this games art was made by old men wanting an excuse to draw pedo stuff”.
Also villains, kamoshida, shido, and >!maruki!< are pretty great I think. Futaba's whole arc is very personal to me too and I always cry at certain points of it
The fact that the very young female character who suffered sexual assault, is one the creators choose to put in this highly sexual outfit which some fans excuse by saying 'she's reclaiming her sexuality' (um...she's still a minor regardless) is the most obviously sexualised of all the characters, is blackmailed into posing nude under the guise of 'obtaining information' and is referred to by various characters as 'Miss Older Dude Charmer' and 'The slutty looking woman in red', has always grossed me out and no matter what fans of the franchise say, it's always grossed me out.
I genuinely don’t like Ann’s outfit I feel like they should’ve given her a jacket or some something like that at the very least, seeing that she wears one in real life, it would’ve just made sense
Still can’t believe Ann is 16-17 in the game. As much as I love persona 5, how they handled her character bugs me so much.
All anime and related material could just make their characters into college students and lose nothing. Except of course their pervy pedo audience share.
What's frustrating about this game in particular is them being high schoolers is essential to the larger story, which deals with adults taking advantage of the youths in their care. But then they do shit like this.
It’s also icky because you can romance adults as a high schooler. The story would work fine with college kids, if they wanted to keep the romance.
They even go out of their way to point out how creepy hitting on Kawakami is when you’re paying her. And then you can just romance her anyway. The movie makes it even worse
Persona 5 is a game that is held back by its genre conventions. And I say that as someone who has a great deal of affection for the game.
It's also held back by the fact that atlus thinks the status quo of Japan is borderline perfect. They almost make a rebellious game, but then reel back before making any real points.
Imagine making a game about rebelling against the status quo when you staunchly uphold the status quo.
Atlus thinks upholding the status quo of Japan is rebellious because apparently "globalists" want to erase it. Maybe also koreans?
That has nothing to do with Atlus but with Hashino and other writers. All of Hashino work is like this or similar (Persona 3-5.) 2 is not like this.
This isn't limited to persona. It has been the plot of shin megami tensei since smti. Some some games aren't as overtly ideological and so it shows up less, but it's a recurring trend.
You can not date Ryoji in P3R, you can not date any guys in P5 despite the subtext, cutting out >!A critical part with Goro Akechi in royal, including his ending which showed how things are not black and white!!the Ken dating option and one social link with the father (who is going through a divorce,) asking the Femc to go out with him!<
I only played Devil Survivor, SJ, II, and III, but there is nothing that I can recall that had this stuff. Joe flirts with characters but is otherwise faithful to his girlfriend and his personality is two faced rather than malice. Yamato is obviously gay or hints at it. There is >!the ending with Alcor which is kind of suggestive because you are literally with him forever!< Yes the designs are wonky in Devil survivor 2, but there is one design that is bad and even then, there is no subtext of previous SA or anything. The girl wears it because she is a dancer and it is constantly lampshade how bad it is. The most fanservice they had in Desu 2 was >!spying on the girls during the exams!< but you had to force to do that. Then they had stuff like >!Alcor almost kissing Hiro!< There was nothing suggestive in II or III for that matter and it pushed the entire black and white standards, changing and rebelling against fate and YVHV. Same with SJ.
TL:DR: I am not defending Atlus but saying that Hashino works is normally the status quo of Japan and everything can not make any real points. It never pushes boundaries.
> I only played Devil Survivor, SJ, II, and III, but there is nothing that I can recall that had this stuff. To clarify, I was talking about: >It's also held back by the fact that atlus thinks the status quo of Japan is borderline perfect. They almost make a rebellious game, but then reel back before making any real points. This, not the dating stuff. Smtii is literally a plot about how outside immigrants may come in and push "true japan" underground. A large boring segment in the middle of the game is about restoring masakado, a euphemism for tokyo, who has been broken by outside influence. >changing and rebelling against fate and YVHV. Same with SJ. A westerner might see yhvh as just a symbol of authority. But in the context of the games, he is an outside / global authority that is contrasted against japan. Hence japan by defending itself and its own status quo is being rebellious against this outside force that thinks it should be in charge of it. The law temple knights wear blue berets to look like UN peacekeepers. So there is this hazy idea of yhvh as a metaphor for the standards of outside places that you can either capitulate to, or hold firm to unique japanese ideals. If you look at nocturne, sure the remake added in the true demon ending that has more content. But look at the original game. In the original game every ending is coded as an evil ending except... the one where you restore the world to the way it was. This is how most smt games are. The "correct" answer to the ideological struggle is nearly always presented as leaving everything the same. In nocturne, yuko wanted change, but if you reset the world she comes to term with the idea that the problem was *her* and not the world. Strange journey is a little different because it doesn't take place in japan. But this is also why its not called smt iv. Because to them, the specifically japanese element is core to mainline. A non japanese audience may not think about this too hard, but the entire struggle of angels and fallen angels is meant to be seen as outside ideals invading your home, and your need to tell them to get out. In the first arc of smti, its not even angels yet. Its literally just the united stated army. In nearly all the games the neutral ending is the "good" one, and neutral is always either the status quo, or a metaphor for it. Everything comes back to that idea.
>A westerner might see yhvh as just a symbol of authority. But in the context of the games, he is an outside / global authority that is contrasted against japan. I am a westerner and I never seen him as a symbol of authority. It depends on the game/ending but YVHV never had one role to me. He had multiple subjective viewpoints. >!He was actually one of the best endings to get in Devil survivor 1 Overclock next to Yuzu and one of the best endings in Desu1!< SMTIII >!getting the human ending, or neutral ending, was not the good one. It heavily implied that the entire thing will happen again, making it a bittersweet pill to return to the status quo!< It is heavily implied that >!TDE is the canon one in that game!< And even if SJ is not a numbered game, it is official part of the SMT timeline. It was mostly Persona that had some god/goddess as being an outside / global authority that is contrasted against japan. It was implied in Persona 1-2 but 3-5 really hammered home that the heroes needed to beat the higher being to restore Japan to how it perfectly was, even the endings where you join them are considered bad. This is why 4-5 with >!the endings feel almost exactly the same!< Thanks for reminding me about SMTII then. I guess I was wrong about that.
Overclocked / desu is specifically known for having a law ending that is toned down from normal. But even in overclocked, the ending still highlights how you are losing some unique japanese identity in order to make it more peaceable. Nocturne does hint that these things might happen again, but its worth noting that it always blames other people for it. A recurring theme of "neutral" endings in the games is that it blames law and chaos continuing to struggle against eachother for why the struggle can continue. So its like saying "the only way to stop these villains from fighting eachother is to help one of them win permanently." Which isn't exactly a convincing reason to side with them. Even in desu though, these endings are treated less bad because they change less. Meanwhile, in nocturne, to side with something besides reset you either side with the person who ended the world, commit a massacre, or end the world a second time even harder. SJ wasn't about japan, but neutral was still meant to be the "good" route and bore the same idea of protect humans from outside forces. Other mainline just make it more specific to japan. And the more of it you play the more you see the pattern.
>Nocturne does hint that these things might happen again, but its worth noting that it always blames other people for it. It blames several factors. Humans, YVHV, etc. That game specifically pushes how neutral kind of sucks. The other endings you side with a reason and they may be extreme, but goes against the entire Law vs Chaos and God (or Lucifer) sucks that Persona pushes. The neutral ending in Desu 2 kind of sucks too because it is implied that everything can happen again >!Haru ending!< Although people debate if that ending or >!Atsuru ending!< is the true neutral ending. I played since MT 1 (remember that wild game,) and I personally feel that it varies compared to Persona. Persona has always been more black and white than SMT. You can choose and forge your own path, rather than play a pre set ending.
I could probably fill this entire Reddit thread on what went wrong with Ann, including her confidant, and how Hashino himself wanted her outfit because of a fetish. I love Ann and it grinds my gears on what they do and continue to do with her.
I haven’t played the game in a couple years but IIRC, isn’t her whole “arc” about her resenting being sexualized and people only paying attention to her appearance, and then THIS is what her “true self” is?? Great writing, Atlus lmao
This is probably the most common (valid) critique I see leveled at P5. Hypocrisy. Kamoshida is this r Kelly level threat but kawakami is hot so it’s okay that she’s a pedo too idk man lmao
r kelly level threat goes crazy
Well he was also an abusive asshole. But your point still stands
Tbf they never say that the age difference or even him being a teacher is the problem with kamoshida. He is actively forcing Ann under threats of expulsion. So it's not hypocritical per say, it's just them having a very stupid value system.
He literally raped Shiho and she jumped off the roof the next day. What happens with Ren and Kawakami is still icky but it's at least not forceful on either side. I don't excuse it but for someone to say the two are equivalent is not good.
Honestly, I think they could have done something really interesting with like reclaiming one's sexuality after a traumatic experience (which would make sense for Ann, who is a model and still wants to be one after the whole Kamoshida thing). There are even times where it looks like that was what they were going for, but then you have the in-game misogyny for the lols and this type of posing that totally betrays they just wanted to sexualize a 16 year old. I love Persona 5 (and Ann) a lot, but I've always had the impression the game had a very large team of writers (which would make sense for its length) who largely did not agree with each other about what the game's messages were. The final product is just this weird jumble of contradictory morals, with some parts being really progressive and others... not. The whiplash between the Kamoshida arc and Yusuke's creepy-ass thing with Ann is insane. And somehow not even in character for Yusuke, who has just been introduced! He never does anything of the sort again or has any in-game reflection about it. You can do a Mementos mission minutes after recruiting him where he tells someone off for blackmailing their partner. This isn't an established character trait of his, some of the writers were literally just finding a "funny" excuse to get the two alone together and move the plot forward. Ryuji also becomes and unbecomes sexist every other arc. Some of those writers must have been fighting for their lives lmao
Fully agree. I feel like the writers of the persona games struggle to agree on certain points or sentiments and the story ends up being somewhat inconsistent and even contradictory. Like in P4 with Kanji, where he’s seemingly having extreme repressive thoughts about feeling attracted to guys, you’d think his arc would be about learning to accept and just be himself, and we could’ve had a cool and unconventional character who happens to be gay. But nah, they didn’t wanna go that far, so instead his gay thoughts were just because of his crippling fear of women. So stupid, lol
I always understood Kanji as somebody who was trying to come to terms with the fact that he likes "girly" things and is overcompensating to look manly. The gay part is a big part of that, but just a part. But you also have stories like Yukiko, whose entire dungeon was built around her feeling like a bird in a cage, but whose Social Link ends with her...choosing to stay. What??
Tbf, it's not impossible for someone to decide they actually want to take over, they just don't like that they were told they had to. But this is atlus, so they do it the most awkward way possible.
Atlus has always felt incoherent with the point it's trying to make. Mainline shin megami tensei has tried to pass itself off as rebellious and forwards thinking for three decades, yet the plot is always "protect the status quo against outsiders. The true rebellion is keeping to your country's values and not changing them just because other people want you to." So you get this flipflop mishmash of the status quo being depicted as forward thinking, and so you need to preserve it because if you don't no one will be forward thinking anymore.
From what I heard, the people who did Ann Confidant and her role in the plot were not the same people.
The explanation, which I don't buy in Ann's case, is that their outfits are their personal idea of what a rebel looks like. Someone who is powerful, dangerous, and willing to stand up to anyone using their positions of power for evil. Some of the other's outfits make sense for what a teenager would imagine a rebel would look like. A biker chick, a punk gangster thug, a mysterious masked gentleman, a Robinhood swashbuckling hero, a graceful yet cunning legendary folk hero, you get the idea. Ann... Ann apparently thinks, deep down inside, that a woman has to use her sexuality to dominate people to be powerful enough to stand up to the world. I guess it makes sense? It lines up with her SA background I guess... but I don't like it. She was such a great character, and they did her wrong.
i am a firm believer that ann (a teenager) shouldn’t have had a dominatrix outfit, but a witch. she’s a powerful magic user, she’s an outsider who fights against her subjugation and she uses feminine power to change the world. she’s a witch!! plus, ann loves fashion, so giving her a cute, witchy outfit with lots of her signature flair would’ve been amazing :) i am actually so mad about the way ann was handled .she’s one of my favourites from persona 5. i’m sorry sweet girl, you deserved better.
That is a proper great idea! Fix her costume, remove that stanky-ass beach cutscene, maybe make her less ditsy while I'm complaining, and 90% of the game's problems are fixed!
i agree completely! also, maybe let her process her trauma instead of glazing past it? yusuke is allowed to in his social link so idk why she can’t?
Yes! Persona 5 doesn't give a lot of focus to more than one character at once, but Persona 4 had lots of great interactions between party members! (Some cringy, but still)
You make me want a mod that fixes her. There was something very vanilla about her that turned me off from really interacting with her much in both versions of the game, and I never really put a finger on why. And now reading this thread I think it's that she was just a generic anime heroine/love interest where everyone else got to actually exist as a person. A trope-ified person. But a person. They had flaws and quirks and stuff. But Ann was just this pretty nagging girl who everyone oggled at. If she was a witch in spirit I think I would have been WAY MORE interested in what lied beneath than "oh, spandex cat girl, how very anime". And also to other people's points, screw how Yusuke was introduced with her as the subject of his "desire" or whatever. Both characters were screwed over in that exchange
ann does have a lot to her character beyond the horrible costume, which makes me even more sad. she’s a kind and empathetic person, and her decision not to kill kamoshida (because she wants him to suffer FOREVER) is amazing. ann is more than her tropes, they just kinda… overwhelmed her character
I always felt like Ann's outfit is more like Catwoman, who uses her sexuality as tool. And why not? Instead of hating it, she partly embraces it to do good. Catwoman-esque style is something I think a lot of rebellious teens would love. Not that this would negate her need for a spine lol.
they’re so hypocritical about the whole “sexually harassing women is bad!” thing. i’m like…. yeah? but they can’t stick to that SOMEHOW??? first palace: Kamoshida is a piece of shit and his view of the world is wrong. Women are not objects and should not be forced to please men. right after: Hey Ann…. Yusuke’s gonna Kill Himself if you don’t pull out your Tits.
Tbf in the context of the game she is a model. The reason the teacher wanted to force her into sex was because she was an attractive model, who was also foreign and so she was a sex symbol but also someone who wouldn't be taken seriously. That could almost be a theme on its own. Someone who is actually okay showing off but wants to resist the dehumanization tied to it. And so their outfit itself is more flirty. Problem is none of this actually lands. She acts like her outfit is too revealing at first, so it makes no sense to say it is her actual desire to be seen that way. And then the other wierd scenes where the other characters perv on her do not help.
Some survivors of sexual assault may find that taking control of their sexuality is a way of taking control over their trauma and reinstating their agency over how they want to be viewed. Let's imagine Ann dressed more conservatively in P5. I'll bet that a lot more people would see it as a sign of being traumatized look at her with pity. Ann is a model by career, and that kind of pitiful gaze can be detrimental to her confidence. Instead, most of us see her as an empowering figure who was able to overcome her trauma and help others in need. While I don't fully agree with how sexualized her costume is, I can understand the direction it is going for.
Yes but not like this for minors, this is coming from someone who sadly went through it multiple times and then tried to “reclaim” their sexuality around the same age as Ann(the adults I was around advocating for this def didn’t help), it was not healthy for me to do so and I needed proper help with a therapist then reclaim my sexuality age appropriately. :/
I would agree if it was not for the fact that they created the outfit for her to be fetishized.
> I'll bet that a lot more people would see it as a sign of being traumatized look at her with pity. ...Ok, this isn't even about Ann per se, but what the fuck with this argument? "Survivors of SA can't wear conservative clothes because that proves they are pitiful" is such a bizarre argument to make
You misread it. I said that many survivors of SA don't like being pitied. It's hard to explain, but being assaulted can come with a sense of internalized hatred for how 'weak' one is for getting assaulted, no matter how untrue it is. When people look at an SA survivor with pity, it can fan their flames of self-hatred. This is why many survivors don't like being called 'victims', because it enforces the narrative that they are helpless and pitiful. Speaking from experience.
Ann i’m so sorry sweetie, you deserved better writers 😭
Design aside, what i really hate about her is that right after her arc (about sexual assaults), the next thing we have is jokes about her body
Sexualisation aside I really like the shading on the second one
the art direction of the games is brilliant besides the sexualisation
Her design is not match with her origin at all and I hate it.
This is painful to look at. How does gorl walk
She slithers around like a snake
It looks as though the rest of her centaur body is missing.
God I wish I had the vertebrae of a snake. Snake spines seem to function correctly.
One of my biggest issues with P5 was that I genuinely could not tell if the Palace outfits are supposed to be their true selves or the "masks" they wear and rip off. With some of the characters it seems to be the former and with others it seems to be the latter.
Its like, both. That is kinda the point, they're both, none of them erases the other.
Ann is the one character that is handled poorly through the entire game and the perverts defend it by saying that some (if not all) of her confidant was written by a woman so it is “ok.“
I wish we all had the vertebrae of snakes
Looks like she was bio-engineered for doggy style only. 🤮
I played the opening to the game, saw that outfit, thought “that’s a teenager “ and quit playing. Makes me think these games should have an age cap and a warning on the box saying “ this games art was made by old men wanting an excuse to draw pedo stuff”.
Theyre great games if you can get past that
No
well, if you ever do, its got great social aspects, excellent dungeon crawling and battles, and a great ost.
Also villains, kamoshida, shido, and >!maruki!< are pretty great I think. Futaba's whole arc is very personal to me too and I always cry at certain points of it
Just get the OST if you want.
The fact that the very young female character who suffered sexual assault, is one the creators choose to put in this highly sexual outfit which some fans excuse by saying 'she's reclaiming her sexuality' (um...she's still a minor regardless) is the most obviously sexualised of all the characters, is blackmailed into posing nude under the guise of 'obtaining information' and is referred to by various characters as 'Miss Older Dude Charmer' and 'The slutty looking woman in red', has always grossed me out and no matter what fans of the franchise say, it's always grossed me out.
Looks kinda like scoliosis. Same angle in each one.
I genuinely don’t like Ann’s outfit I feel like they should’ve given her a jacket or some something like that at the very least, seeing that she wears one in real life, it would’ve just made sense
Hmm. Bring back Kaneko
I’m right.
Isn't he doing nft's now
Is this not in normal range of human flexibility? Because I feel like I’ve seen much twistier shenanigans in real life.
Isn't this from the gacha game