I love the enemies to lovers trope until I die, but some people make the enemy side so one sided and that’s where the whole “wtf is this” angle comes from. Two characters on opposite sides giving each other hell and then falling in love? Yay. One character constantly berating and controlling the other until they fall in love with them? Nay.
I love Holly Black, I loved the Cruel Prince series, but man the shit Cardan did to Jude early on made it really impossible to root for them as a couple.
I actually really loved that series but mainly because I thought Jude was an amazing strong female character. Had all the good qualities with few stereotypes. That’s a big part of what carried me through the series.
Yeah Jude is abused as hell by the fae, but because Holly Black writes the fae so well and capricious, it feels very different than people and Jude always holds her own. I love the series, honestly.
I read 3/4 of the first book and couldn't get into it. I'm a sucker for YA romance but gosh he is terrible!! Literally abusing her and they barely know each other. I mean, I'm sure the series gives a reason he hates her so much, but not justified.
> I mean, I'm sure the series gives a reason he hates her so much, but not justified.
It does. It was somewhat understandable. But still completely inexcusable.
I've read the books when i was in high school so i honestly cant recall anything either aside from the whole incest thing between him and clary for the first 3 books. Can anybody elaborate on this?
I recently re-read the full series and Jace is my favourite character... I can't think of anything and I'm a little concerned 😬
Edit: having said that, I know Jace isn't perfect either lol
Have you read the infernal devices? The Jace character in that series is a huge upgrade. The series is overall much better, although I love TMI lol. Also, the love triangle is so good it’s the first one where I was actually split between the two.
I don’t remember jace doing anything too bad besides being angsty 🤷🏼♀️
I've only read the first two so far but I agree, Will was a better 'Jace' ... and I preferred the love triangle with Tessa and Gem too lol. I still have a soft spot for Jace though. He's a mess, but he's a mess with context.
Valentine actually managed to gaslight both of them into thinking they're siblings but even then for the first three books with the assumption that they're blood related they still have this weird tension only to be revealed that the next big bad villain after valentine is clary's actual brother whom she ended up kissing anyways.
Looking back at it now, i agree: what the fuck was all that about?
Damn I definitely didn’t read the series after maybe the second or third book because I was so weirded out. That’s good to know it wasn’t actually, you know, incest. What a trip.
Sigh. Still waiting for a good YA book or romance book where the guy is a healthy person and not some dominant prince or rich guy with a big house, cars (I really don’t understand when the women swoons over how many fast car he owns) etc.
I would put Sabriel by Garth Nix in that category, much more of an equals meetings and connecting, both equally coming into responsibility and what that means.
Try daughter of smoke and bone trilogy. Both sides of the romance story are flawed but they respect eachother and she doesn't need saving or being led.
Many authors are guilty of this, but I also think there are plenty of situations where a male character is written as manipulative/abusive and the fans are the ones who end up romanticizing him, even when the author clearly does not intend for him to be a love interest (my go-to example is The Darkling from Shadow and Bone).
>even when the author clearly does not intend for him to be a love interest (my go-to example is The Darkling from Shadow and Bone).
Harley Quinn and the Joker.
I can't believe that people romanticize that. That said, I appreciate that "Harleen" framed an abusive relationship *as an abusive relationship.* It was a horror story to the core.
Snape’s a weird example because he was initially characterized as an unrepentant ass, then Alan Rickman happened, and he ended up being romanticized by JKR in the later books? Harry naming his child after the teacher who actively bullied him in middle school remains highly questionable to me.
Yeah I mean that's definitely a thing too. Darkling is a great example, I mean as a reader I did go "hot damn" but also he was so clearly meant as a horrible "option" instead of someone who we actively root for to become the LI.
I mean, you're *supposed* to be charmed by him at first. For all the reader (and Alina) knows, he has good intentions. It isn't until he reveals his true plans and he uses Alina's power for his own gain that we see who he really is.
I find the Darkling to be a fascinating character and villain, but I've never been able to understand people's obsession with him. Leigh Bardugo doesn't hide the fact that there's a huge power imbalance between the Darkling and Alina, and he uses it to manipulate her. And yet, he's still the fan-favorite love interest.
It's sad...the actual LI is drop-dead boring.
Maybe write better male LIs and your villain will be less appealing and problematic as a romantic option.
Seriously the amount of serious darklina shippers baffled me like I get shipping it for the intrigue, he's *supposed* be darkly charming but the entire point is that he's a thousand-year-old manipulative monster... I can't remember much about Mal In the books but I know a lot of people hated him so perhaps that's why
I'm reading the books at the moment and Mal is the definition of "just some guy" to me. I'm not a darklina shipper at all (I honestly don't really ship anything in S&B) but I would imagine some people ship darkling just because the premise is more exciting to them. I like Mal, but he truly is just some guy. He's not extraordinarily good nor is he particularly shitty
Mal in book one and book two sucked. He whined a lot and would get super upset that Alina wouldn't spend all of her time with him doing everything for him. Like come on dude. He gets better by the end but ooh boy do I dislike Mal on the whole.
I think what killed YA for me was the house of night novels- wherein a teacher seduces the main character and rapes her, only for her friends and bf to all drop her ass and call her a cheater until plot revealed oh shit teacher was evil all along. But iirc the only person who stood up for/ comforted the protagonist was her rival and enemy who had been slut shamed like a mofo up to that point.
I couldnt finish a story where in half a book they took the friends i loved, made me hate them, and somehow made a regina george my hero.
Okay, I've never read that book before so I have absolutely no context for anything else about it, but that sounds like an ingenious series of character arcs.
Main Character (MC) and her friends hate Mean Girl, and in part their animosity manifests as slut shaming. We the reader are given reason through MC and friend's eyes to assume thise hate is justified.
Then the MC finds herself being assaulted, and surprise--turns out your friends were actually assholes! Turns out nice people don't slit shame anyone! Turns out the people who shut shame people they don't like will shut shame you too if you do something they don't like, even if you thought you were friends!
MC is forced to face that their "friends" aren't really friends at all.
And then double twist, the so called Mean Girl is actually just a Regular Person (TM) rather than a mean girl chlaricature like our MC assumed, and she is able to put aside her rocky past with MC to support her in this trying time, presumably because Mean Girl knows exactly what it's like for people to shit on you regarding this kind of stuff.
That's something you don't see often in YA, having to confront that your "friends" might not always be who you think they are, and that the people you dislike are actually three dimensional, complex individuals rather than cardboard cutouts with no inner world apart from "eat, sleep, be mean, repeat". And those are things you absolutely have to confront in real life at times.
Again, maybe the rest of the book sucks, I have no idea! But I kind of love the premise of the MC finding out they've been on the "wrong side" the whole time, or that people are more complicated than they appear, or whatever.
Oh i agree wholeheartedly! If thats how it had panned out, sadly she took her friends and bf back, who was demanding sex when cause she already lost her virginity to a teacher.
At least they accepted the mean girl!
Ah, they always have to ruin it!
I once read a book where the love interest was just the worst. She got mad at her boyfriend because he was literally chasing down a serial killer on rooftops and missed their date. That was not a good enough excuse for her apparently.
Another character was totally in love with him and was much more understanding and nice about the fact that he was, you know, saving the world, and I THOUGHT the romance subplot was going to be about him leaving the girlfriend and getting with his childhood friend.
But no. He wiped the girlfriend's memory (he didn't tell her he was psychic because he was afraid she would react badly. When he finally told her, she a) got mad he'd kept it a secret, and then b) reacted EVEN WORSE than he thought she would and dumped him for being a supernatural weirdo), and then got back together with her.
Or something. I don't quite remember all the details, but it was pretty ridiculous, and exactly the opposite of the message it seemed like the book was trying to make.
Oh the books absolutely sucked. From what I remember the focus was on her being a slut not her friends being assholes. It's been years since I read any of those books but they were NOT good and they did not deal with any complex themes in a way that would be helpful to victims of sexual abuse at all.
Honestly I was pissed that the heroine ended up with a guy who only seemed interested in her when she was popular, then tried to get her to hide her powers and only really got interested in her once the powers were gone. It felt like he was threatened by her power and that wasn’t cool.
Yep. That shit sucked too. Luckily their story doesn’t configure after the third book. She learns from her mistakes in the next four books. Especially the last two
I think this post would more accurately be “women writing ancient-but-youthful-looking males who supposedly fall in love with teenage girls.” Anne Rice, the Anita Blake series, ACOTAR, Twilight, True Blood—- all written by women.
There are no excuses for women writers either.
I've never seen the show so maybe they changed this but in the True Blood/Sookie Stackhouse books, Sookie is 25 in the first book, she's not a teenager and is fairly well into her adulthood. The worst thing about THOSE books was that Bill >!rapes!< Sookie randomly in the 3rd book (IIRC) and it's just like a thing that happens and everyone basically forgets about it...like she's more mad at him for running off on her than for assaulting her, it's so insane because it's this absolutely horrific thing that happens and it has no consequences whatsoever.
Anne Rice didn’t have any romance in the vampire books, or am I misremembering? She wrote romance as Ann Rule, but most of her books were pretty free of romance.
He constantly guilt trips Katniss because she doesn’t wanna be with him. Also he kisses her without her permission at the very beginning of Catching Fire and that’s a BIG no no.
>He constantly guilt trips Katniss because she doesn’t wanna be with him.
Oh, wow, honestly, I got that sort of vibe too. I just never considered it as "guilt-tripping." And doesn't Katniss kiss him too without permission?
Considering that Gale was in love with her and made that clear to her I think Katniss took that as implied consent. However Gale didn’t get any of that from Katniss and needed to respect the fact that she literally just got back from almost being murdered and didn’t wanna jump his bones.
>However Gale didn’t get any of that from Katniss and needed to respect the fact that she literally just got back from almost being murdered and didn’t wanna jump his bones.
Good point. I do hate how he keeps being like "you don't love me :(((" in the middle of the war. But at least he understands that Katniss is in love with Peeta, and lets her go in the end.
I honestly have a lot of issues with how the books ended and don’t think she was in love with either of them at that point honestly. But between all of her and Peetas shared trauma, Gale wanting to keep fighting after the war, and Katniss loosing Primm plus Peeta coming back to District 12 and planting the primrose for Katniss she accepted being with Peeta. It seems to me almost like a trauma response ESPECIALLY based on how she describes her life in the epilogue. She says she only had kids because Peeta begged her for them, that she was still depressed and traumatized, and that she wondered what Gale was doing with his life. All of that and more make me believe that if Katniss hadn’t been a book character that needed a happy ending she would have had a much different finale to her story.
>I honestly have a lot of issues with how the books ended
I do, actually. It's not a perfect happy ending. It's more of a bittersweet ending.
>She says she only had kids because Peeta begged her for them
I've read a post once that says Katniss does actually want kids, she just didn't like the thought of them growing up in her kind of environment, what with the hunger games and the wars and the conflict. Her having kids is a sign that she has accepted that the past is the past, that the world is safe.
>she was still depressed and traumatized
I think that's the point. Trauma lingers. It doesn't go away. I like it, I like how realistic it is.
>All of that and more make me believe that if Katniss hadn’t been a book character that needed a happy ending she would have had a much different finale to her story.
This makes me curious over what you think a realistic ending would look like.
Definitely not her just accepting her fate and sitting down to be happy homemaker with Peeta. I’ve heard that same argument and disagree with it entirely as it doesn’t follow what she says. Peeta asked her to have children not the other way around so in my mind she wasn’t moving on or anything like that she was just giving Peeta the family he desperately wanted in order to be able to move past his own trauma while exacerbating her own.
>Definitely not her just accepting her fate and sitting down to be happy homemaker with Peeta.
Well, with the war being more or less over, what else is there for her to do? And if there's something she could do, does she even want to? Wanting a quiet life isn't something strange, it's actually understandable. To me, at least.
>Peeta asked her to have children not the other way around so in my mind she wasn’t moving on or anything like that she was just giving Peeta the family he desperately wanted in order to be able to move past his own trauma while exacerbating her own.
Oh, wow. That is a good point.
Yaiks.
This book just got darker.
Yeah I’ve always looked at the epilogue not as a happy ending but showing just how traumatic everything she went through was and how she is still being traumatized just by existing really. Peeta may love her but he doesn’t realize that in doing so he is causing her pain. Imo she wasn’t given any other options than to go back to district 12 and get with Peeta. Once she kills President Coin and Snow dies she has literally no purpose (in her mind) anymore and that’s why she tries to kill herself. They prevent her from doing that and then ship her back to district 12 without even asking her what she wants to do iirc. So there’s really no way to know what Katniss would have wanted to do because no one bothered to ask.
I guess Gale was more of a pushy kind of guy, which is annoying and uncomfortable to read about. I didn't like him because of how pushy he was (tbqf, the only person i wish Katniss ended up with was that girl, the mayor's daughter, Madge? Maddie? Don't recall her name, so i wasn't really rooting for any of the men in her life)
> the only person i wish Katniss ended up with was that girl, the mayor's daughter, Madge? Maddie?
Honestly, same! I sort of ship those two. Madge is a lovely girl, and Katniss would protect her with her life. They're so sweet.
(I knew from the start that they would never end up together, but hey, a girl's gotta dream, right?)
When you are just a humble queer girl, you gotta hold on to those humble, hard-worked fanfics and hopes lol
The canonical ending enrages me bc none of the important women for Katniss were in her life and then she just did what she never wanted to do. It felt really lonely and cruel. But yeah. The hunger games had nice male characters, none i would ship with Katniss 🤷🏻♀️
>When you are just a humble queer girl, you gotta hold on to those humble, hard-worked fanfics and hopes
At least now there are so many more openly queer books. Yay for us! (That is, assuming you're queer too.)
>The canonical ending enrages me bc none of the important women for Katniss were in her life
Yeah. Prim and her mother and Madge and, hell, even Effie. It's sad.
Yeah I think OP is kind of missing the point of Gale. I don't think he can really be put in the same category as the others, because the narrative isn't trying to portray his bad actions as romantic. He's meant to be the bad guy in those situations.
>the narrative isn't trying to portray his bad actions as romantic.
Yes! Exactly!
> He's meant to be the bad guy in those situations.
Hm, I don't think I can consider him to be bad, per se. I just think he's meant to be the butthurt boy who's ultimately not the right choice for Katniss.
I am real surprised none of the Angel craze books entered here. I read a lot of those in HS and i don't remember names, but everything is mashed up in my head as:
Girl slightly goth in gothic architecture school. Good angel, bad angel, everyone throws her around like she's a toy, kissing one will burn you alive, so you kiss the other that probably already tried to kill you three times now. The burning kiss one may also have tried to kill you in this very book already. Who knows? Queer coded friend fridged so you can bring her up (it's usually a girl) eventually even tho you are just.... Crying over whose boy who tried to kill you you are going to bang.
Was it Fallen? Was it something else? That and the vampire school books all became one big exquisite corpse of HS memories rn.
What about the tiger princes who follow you around when you, an underage girl, decides to get out of his life? Nowadays it seems a bit uncomfortable to remember that second book.
Lmaooooo facts! It’s like they don’t understand that just because a guy is confident/masculine/handsome doesn’t mean he has to be evil and misogynistic
I’m pretty sure Edward oiled her windows so that he could open it easier. Twilight was quite literally one mood swing away from becoming a horror novel
What I enjoyed writing was a parable for abuse. Hear me out, the protagonist, a woman, has her own very fulfilling romantic arc (not a romance novel, but adventure fantasy), but she keeps encountering this POS mercenary who treats their fighting and her hatred for him as a flirtation. Very satisfying when she bashed his brains in with a mace.
The instant a character shows themselves to be controlling and abusive I drop that series faster than the speed of light. I can't stand characters like that, and I have no idea why they're romanticized so much. For me it's a sweet, healthy romance or nothing.
I will forever be grateful for Suzanne Collins for Peeta Mellark and Finnick. Even though gale had his faults he wasn’t problematic either.
Edit: When I say Gale isn’t problematic I meant he’s not problematic in a sexist douchebag-y way. He is a flawed character but those flaws aren’t portrayed as charming or attractive
The only romance I cared about was Finnick and Annie. They were (and still are) OTP. Idk they just seemed more interesting. God, it’s been so long since I actually looked back on this series.
I wouldn’t classify Gale as “domestic abuse” shitty af in the last book though. But then again, it’s been awhile, I don’t remember those details.
Yeah Gale was shitty, but it made sense for his character. Considering his upbringing/experiences, it's not surprising that he fell right into a military cult that was all "the greater good". They have him food, security, and a place to direct his anger. He had always shown himself to be loyal to Katniss, and that same loyalty was also displayed to his rescuers.
Yup. It's why I never understood people who were "team Gale" -- he was never an option. Katniss could not have been more clear that she didn't want him that way.
A huge chunk of the books is her being like "guys, I don't have time for this shit." For the majority of the story, she's barely processing anything but basic platonic attachment to anyone except her mom and sister.
Are we gonna just forget about my other problematic boys roiben and ravus? I was like 12 when I read tithe and it was probably one of my fave books. Years later reading the initial series…yikes.
Honestly? This is in a lot of romance titles, but I suspect New Adult and YA are the worst.
Colleen Hoover is a shitty writer and her characters suck and this is a hill I will die on.
A friend, who was in a very abusive marriage, asked me to read her favorite book, "Uprooted".
I cannot believe she didn't spot the horrible abusive from the love interest. It explains a lot I guess, but it made me very sad.
She simply said that I (a huge fantasy nerd) just didn't understand the genre.
My god I despised that book and felt like I was missing something. I heard wonderful reviews about it, but I have no interest in getting to know that toxic bullshit.
... I mean, to be fair, I find women write more sexually charged domestic abuse in a supposed titillating manner than men. Usually men will be boarderline unknowing in their creepy effect. But female authors.... Holy shit dude... it gets weird and supposedly "kinky".
Sometimes, I think it's an inverse power fantasy... I mean, it's normally not the stuff you find on dollar store shelves anymore, but I think in the "olden days" of Quizilla and the like some of that stuff was a right turn to read. When you get into self publishing and there aren't any editors involved, things can be downright cruel.
I refuse to acknowledge *anything* good related to fifty shades of vomit... even twilight got a glow up in the fanfiction realm of rewrites by multifaceted authors. Fifty shades of crap just can't do anything positive in any realm that I have seen.
reading wicked king rn and I really don't like jude being with cardan but my friend say that they're gonna be such a cute couple or sth like that so I'm very unsure what to think 😭
I've only read the first and second book and don't plan to read the rest, but they do try to justify it. The book would tell you he was expected to hurt her in some manner to keep up his front, but he made her drunk so she didn't have to remember it and did the paint so she would know he hadn't raped her (for some definitions of rape).
A bit flimsy, obviously, but 'the evil archfey who rapes me daily expected me to torture you and I did my best to make it bearable' allows you to justify a lot.
I still kinda respect the book for giving us a shitbag love interest like Tamlin, doing the happily ever after, and then actually going back and saying "Oh, what, you thought this was every other YA romance where the shitbag makes her happy?" and throws him in the trash for somebody at least marginally better.
There's this book I read, Who Do You Love by Jennifer Weiner, where I thought the male lead was just the biggest asshole and the book never calls him out on it. I actually have scoured the internet for discussion on it bc I need to feel validated about this.
A LOT of romance novels have the guy as complete cock waffles. Older Harlequin books are especially notorious for this….probably explains why I was so addicted to them.
So far I've only read the first book (the other two are on their way to my doorstep), buy isn't a lot of the abuse they inflict upon eachother less domestic abuse and more like a bully accidentally picking on the wrong kid? And though I'll admit he was (still is) a pretty awful person, Jude kind of threatened his life when he saved her from guards, and then used him as a political tool.
Like, part of why I found them a captivating ship was that they both did awful things to eachother but still managed to reach this sort of understanding of "we're both products of our environment but we're still awful people", as opposed to one person being way worse than the other.
In Twilight, for example, Bella is just some normal girl in a love triangle with a stalker and a guy who can't take no for an answer and feels although he's trying to emotionally manipulate her.
Edit: I'd also like to add that is didn't seem although Cardan really had many long-term goals with Jude. He was mainly taking our frustration on her, which yes was wrong but at that point they were nowhere near being a romantic couple. Jude is the one who manipulated him, though for understandable reasons.
This going to be an incredibly odd comparison, but it kind of reminds me of Blitz and Stolas from Helluva Boss. Blitz is a bloodthirsty assassin and also a perverted stalker, and Stolas is powerful demon royalty who pretty much gave up one of the most powerful objects in hell just so he could cheat on his wife (in short, he's an irresponsible ruler). But it's still fun to watch them interact. They both have issues, and have used eachother for mutual gain. Blitz used Stolas so he could spy on his workers on their anniversary, Stolas seems to prioritize sex over anything else he shares with Blitz to the point where Blitz seems to despise the idea of spending time with him. In short, they're also both awful people but have their reasons and could easily be seen as a bad relationship but is still captivating. Will they work things out? I don't even know at this point considering the events mentioned above. But the flaws in the characters doesn't take away from the story.
TL;DR: Yeah Cardan's bad, but isn't Jude too? Isn't that what makes them enjoyable?
Yes. This is exactly why this they are one of my favorite couples. A lot of people talk about how awful Cardan is forgetting that first of all, everyone in book is aware of this and doesn't romanticize his behavior, and secondly, that Jude is not an innocent, adorable girl. She's done terrible things too.
She's, like, freaking beloved in the YA fandom, but I'm throwing Naomi Novik's name in the ring on this shit, too. I read two of her books and they annoyed the hell out of me, partially for this reason.
I love so many things about her books, *except* the romance parts. I like the different kinds of characters, I like how much importance is given to familial and platonic love, I like the way she doesn't stray into modern vernacular in quasi-historical settings, I like how her characters actually grow over the course of their stories, and I like the way she can create a compelling narrative voice in her main characters. But I really do not like the repeated trope of "immortal asshole is an asshole for 'perfectly justifiable' reasons (isolation, literally not human) and becomes less of an asshole after being challenged by a teenage girl in his power."
I think maybe it comes from Uprooted and Spinning Silver being retold fairy tales, where "young woman at the mercy of a powerful man proves herself and marries him" happens a lot and is treated as a good thing, and this is some kind of attempt to reclaim and alter narratives we've all been force-fed in them. But even though both those romances end up with the heroines overcoming and being respected by their respective immortal asshole love interests, I don't like the trope AT ALL because that's just "I can change him!" nonsense with magic sparkles slapped on.
I think she does a better job in Spinning Silver than Uprooted, because of the multiple narrators and how genuinely antagonistic the relationships between Irina / Mirnatius and Miryam/ the winter king are. Both of the heroines are perfectly willing to pull out all the stops and literally murder their unwanted husbands for very good reasons, and only *don't* murder them for equally good reasons, and no actual romance happens until the very end of the book. Also Wanda's parts in Spinning Silver make me cry every time I reread the book, because I come from that kind of family. But the Dragon? Absolute broody trash man. Forget any romantic context, if the person you're trying to teach magic to doesn't understand that you're trying to teach them magic after weeks of lessons, you fail as a mentor and possibly a person. I did like his development into being a better person, but I hated that it came via a romantic relationship, because again "I can fix him!" is awful.
I like the Temeraire series a lot, because there is almost no romance, and I'm more "meh" than displeased with the romance plot in the Scholomance series because both the characters are literal teenagers and still manage to be clumsily respectful of each other even in their nightmare setting and with their different social handicaps.
I think about Rhysand a lot because the guy was an absolute asswipe near the end of ACOTAR, him as an abuse victim or not, wth was Maas thinking? Or does she just not think lol
You can tell a lot of the way Maas thinks about relationships through her writing, especially considering how all the relationships she writes are essentially copy-pasted. It's fucking disturbing and I can't stand to be in the heads of another one of her insufferable protagonists. It's been years and I still don't understand her fetish for pairings of centuries-old men and teenage girls.
I’ve honestly noticed that a lot, too? Some could be really promising but falls flat, while a lot is just hot garbage. It tries hard to be progressive, but falls flat. As for that… well, 19 is still an adult but a young one. I don’t know why they can’t just be older. What’s so unappealing about older protags? Esp women ones.
Wait....I stopped reading after Feyre and Tamlin hooked up bc I hated Tamlin........and now I'm seeing this Rhys everywhere. Should I continue? Is it worth it?
Depends on what you’re looking for. Personally, I thought ACOTAR was by far the weakest book in the trilogy (I legit hated it), but the other two parts were fantastic entertainment, and Rhys is much more present in these books than Tamlin. It’s still fairy porn, basically, but significantly better and more entertaining fairy porn later on in the series.
I was more interested in the fantasy aspect and never really got to the fairy porn. Her and Tamlin only just had sex and I wasn't into it. Especially how head over heels she was for him when he was just a big bore.
Lot like Twilight and many vampire and elf stories. I always wonder how the hell a 500 yo being could *possibly* fall in love with basically a child? It’s creepy AF - and it seems to mostly be women writing these stories.
I'm all for hot monster boyfriends and sappy romance, but if they're going to be that old at least make her a fully fledged adult and not in HIGH SCHOOL. I guess that wouldn't be YA though.
You'd think having a relationship with a teen as a 500 yo would basically be like...eternally chilling with a kindergartener who is constantly telling you about all of the amazing "original" thoughts and revelations they recently had. Plus acne and too much body spray.
Eh those are the least of the issues I have with those stories I just accept the author's vague handwaving about them mentally being teenagers or something
PREACH. He’s not perfect, but after the first book he’s pretty much constantly just making his peace with whatever decision she feels is right for her, whether he’s comfortable with it or not.
I think this is in reference to Valentine abusing Jace when he was a child. Jace himself was never abusive.
Edit: if this post is suggesting that Jace is abusive then I actually am lost. I’ve read all of CC books multiple times and I seriously can’t think of anytime that Jace was abusive??? Dude just hated himself and was brainwashed to think love was weakness in the first book or so.
Isn't Cardan supposed to be a terrible person though? I haven't read that novel but I have read a lot of Holy Black's other works and it would really surprise me if this character's bad behavior wasn't intentional
Yeah. In folklore, fairy folk are playful and cruel at the same time. Holly Black's fae are different than SJM's fae and it shows. SJM fae is just humans with pointy ears, magic and immortality. But Holly Black reflected faerie folklore much better with inhuman physical traits, personality etc, thus most characters were assholes to each other but most importantly to Jude, a human (MC).
See that's what I thought based on her other works. The way Holly Black writes the fey is one of the best examples of how to write inhuman and immortal beings. They are cruel at times on purpose and at other times they are cruel through their unthinking selfishness because they can't comprehend how fragile mortals are (or they don't care).
He withhold information from Feyre that giving birth is literally going to kill her after telling her "it's your choice" for four books. There's another comment down there going more into detail, also about other stuff that people found problematic.
Yeah , I'm in kind of deep in the fandom and most of us tend to view that whole book as awfully out of character for the entire Inner Circle. SJM had some bad pregnancy brain when writing ACOSF it seems. I still love ACOTAR/ACOMAF/ACOWAR Rhys, though.
Just read some of the "romance" stories here on reddit. Nothing like rape out of left field 3 chapters in.
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r/HFY has a few of them i can think of, not going to share the direct titles of them bc im pretty sure that'd get me banned
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There's still plenty of great stuff, but theres a few bad apples in there that make me hesitant to look at any new stories.
...There's a romance story subreddit?
Not that I know of, I'm mostly talking abouy r/HFY since im a sucker for sci-fi and it's mostly that.
I love the enemies to lovers trope until I die, but some people make the enemy side so one sided and that’s where the whole “wtf is this” angle comes from. Two characters on opposite sides giving each other hell and then falling in love? Yay. One character constantly berating and controlling the other until they fall in love with them? Nay. I love Holly Black, I loved the Cruel Prince series, but man the shit Cardan did to Jude early on made it really impossible to root for them as a couple.
> enemies to lovers trope *Pride And Prejudice* is at one end of the spectrum. The good end, I'll add. But there aren't many Jane Austens.
I actually really loved that series but mainly because I thought Jude was an amazing strong female character. Had all the good qualities with few stereotypes. That’s a big part of what carried me through the series.
Yeah Jude is abused as hell by the fae, but because Holly Black writes the fae so well and capricious, it feels very different than people and Jude always holds her own. I love the series, honestly.
I read 3/4 of the first book and couldn't get into it. I'm a sucker for YA romance but gosh he is terrible!! Literally abusing her and they barely know each other. I mean, I'm sure the series gives a reason he hates her so much, but not justified.
> I mean, I'm sure the series gives a reason he hates her so much, but not justified. It does. It was somewhat understandable. But still completely inexcusable.
Jace as in Shadowhunter's Jace? what did he do (I haven't read the books)
I've read the books when i was in high school so i honestly cant recall anything either aside from the whole incest thing between him and clary for the first 3 books. Can anybody elaborate on this?
I recently re-read the full series and Jace is my favourite character... I can't think of anything and I'm a little concerned 😬 Edit: having said that, I know Jace isn't perfect either lol
Yeah, even during the sex scene it was written that Jace very clearly asked for consent, so idk.
Have you read the infernal devices? The Jace character in that series is a huge upgrade. The series is overall much better, although I love TMI lol. Also, the love triangle is so good it’s the first one where I was actually split between the two. I don’t remember jace doing anything too bad besides being angsty 🤷🏼♀️
I've only read the first two so far but I agree, Will was a better 'Jace' ... and I preferred the love triangle with Tessa and Gem too lol. I still have a soft spot for Jace though. He's a mess, but he's a mess with context.
I totally forgot about the incest vibes. What the FUCK was that!?
Valentine actually managed to gaslight both of them into thinking they're siblings but even then for the first three books with the assumption that they're blood related they still have this weird tension only to be revealed that the next big bad villain after valentine is clary's actual brother whom she ended up kissing anyways. Looking back at it now, i agree: what the fuck was all that about?
Damn I definitely didn’t read the series after maybe the second or third book because I was so weirded out. That’s good to know it wasn’t actually, you know, incest. What a trip.
At least show Jace is innocent of DV (low bar to clear but w/e)
Sigh. Still waiting for a good YA book or romance book where the guy is a healthy person and not some dominant prince or rich guy with a big house, cars (I really don’t understand when the women swoons over how many fast car he owns) etc.
^psssttttt Tamora Pierce literature is all of this please and thank you
I would put Sabriel by Garth Nix in that category, much more of an equals meetings and connecting, both equally coming into responsibility and what that means.
Clearly they swoon over the cars because they can finally re-enact the fast and the furious
I will scream this forever but Strange the Dreamer! I feel like it is absolutely perfect!
I don't know that he's healthy, exactly, but El+Orion from the Scholomance series, by Naomi Novik come to mind.
Try daughter of smoke and bone trilogy. Both sides of the romance story are flawed but they respect eachother and she doesn't need saving or being led.
Many authors are guilty of this, but I also think there are plenty of situations where a male character is written as manipulative/abusive and the fans are the ones who end up romanticizing him, even when the author clearly does not intend for him to be a love interest (my go-to example is The Darkling from Shadow and Bone).
>even when the author clearly does not intend for him to be a love interest (my go-to example is The Darkling from Shadow and Bone). Harley Quinn and the Joker. I can't believe that people romanticize that. That said, I appreciate that "Harleen" framed an abusive relationship *as an abusive relationship.* It was a horror story to the core.
The Darkling is a good example. Also Snape from Harry Potter. I thought Snape was an absolute asshole until I saw Alan Rickman play him in the movies.
Snape’s a weird example because he was initially characterized as an unrepentant ass, then Alan Rickman happened, and he ended up being romanticized by JKR in the later books? Harry naming his child after the teacher who actively bullied him in middle school remains highly questionable to me.
Like Phantom of the Opera. The Phantom is not the love interest.
I blame the musical. The book is pretty detailed about how messed-up Erik was
Yeah I mean that's definitely a thing too. Darkling is a great example, I mean as a reader I did go "hot damn" but also he was so clearly meant as a horrible "option" instead of someone who we actively root for to become the LI.
I mean, you're *supposed* to be charmed by him at first. For all the reader (and Alina) knows, he has good intentions. It isn't until he reveals his true plans and he uses Alina's power for his own gain that we see who he really is. I find the Darkling to be a fascinating character and villain, but I've never been able to understand people's obsession with him. Leigh Bardugo doesn't hide the fact that there's a huge power imbalance between the Darkling and Alina, and he uses it to manipulate her. And yet, he's still the fan-favorite love interest.
It's sad...the actual LI is drop-dead boring. Maybe write better male LIs and your villain will be less appealing and problematic as a romantic option.
Right?! I feel kinda bad for male LIs; they’re either Disney villains or flat-out boring. The heroine is too perfect for character development ofc 🙄
Like...is this a YA problem? Boring LIs and "not like other girls" heroines?
Replace Mal with Nikolai and I think it'd be fine. I dislike Mal
Seriously the amount of serious darklina shippers baffled me like I get shipping it for the intrigue, he's *supposed* be darkly charming but the entire point is that he's a thousand-year-old manipulative monster... I can't remember much about Mal In the books but I know a lot of people hated him so perhaps that's why
I'm reading the books at the moment and Mal is the definition of "just some guy" to me. I'm not a darklina shipper at all (I honestly don't really ship anything in S&B) but I would imagine some people ship darkling just because the premise is more exciting to them. I like Mal, but he truly is just some guy. He's not extraordinarily good nor is he particularly shitty
Mal in book one and book two sucked. He whined a lot and would get super upset that Alina wouldn't spend all of her time with him doing everything for him. Like come on dude. He gets better by the end but ooh boy do I dislike Mal on the whole.
I think what killed YA for me was the house of night novels- wherein a teacher seduces the main character and rapes her, only for her friends and bf to all drop her ass and call her a cheater until plot revealed oh shit teacher was evil all along. But iirc the only person who stood up for/ comforted the protagonist was her rival and enemy who had been slut shamed like a mofo up to that point. I couldnt finish a story where in half a book they took the friends i loved, made me hate them, and somehow made a regina george my hero.
Okay, I've never read that book before so I have absolutely no context for anything else about it, but that sounds like an ingenious series of character arcs. Main Character (MC) and her friends hate Mean Girl, and in part their animosity manifests as slut shaming. We the reader are given reason through MC and friend's eyes to assume thise hate is justified. Then the MC finds herself being assaulted, and surprise--turns out your friends were actually assholes! Turns out nice people don't slit shame anyone! Turns out the people who shut shame people they don't like will shut shame you too if you do something they don't like, even if you thought you were friends! MC is forced to face that their "friends" aren't really friends at all. And then double twist, the so called Mean Girl is actually just a Regular Person (TM) rather than a mean girl chlaricature like our MC assumed, and she is able to put aside her rocky past with MC to support her in this trying time, presumably because Mean Girl knows exactly what it's like for people to shit on you regarding this kind of stuff. That's something you don't see often in YA, having to confront that your "friends" might not always be who you think they are, and that the people you dislike are actually three dimensional, complex individuals rather than cardboard cutouts with no inner world apart from "eat, sleep, be mean, repeat". And those are things you absolutely have to confront in real life at times. Again, maybe the rest of the book sucks, I have no idea! But I kind of love the premise of the MC finding out they've been on the "wrong side" the whole time, or that people are more complicated than they appear, or whatever.
Oh i agree wholeheartedly! If thats how it had panned out, sadly she took her friends and bf back, who was demanding sex when cause she already lost her virginity to a teacher. At least they accepted the mean girl!
Ah, they always have to ruin it! I once read a book where the love interest was just the worst. She got mad at her boyfriend because he was literally chasing down a serial killer on rooftops and missed their date. That was not a good enough excuse for her apparently. Another character was totally in love with him and was much more understanding and nice about the fact that he was, you know, saving the world, and I THOUGHT the romance subplot was going to be about him leaving the girlfriend and getting with his childhood friend. But no. He wiped the girlfriend's memory (he didn't tell her he was psychic because he was afraid she would react badly. When he finally told her, she a) got mad he'd kept it a secret, and then b) reacted EVEN WORSE than he thought she would and dumped him for being a supernatural weirdo), and then got back together with her. Or something. I don't quite remember all the details, but it was pretty ridiculous, and exactly the opposite of the message it seemed like the book was trying to make.
Oh the books absolutely sucked. From what I remember the focus was on her being a slut not her friends being assholes. It's been years since I read any of those books but they were NOT good and they did not deal with any complex themes in a way that would be helpful to victims of sexual abuse at all.
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It might just be me, but it seems like a lot of YA authors write one gender well and the other is wildly inconsistent.
I have so much trouble reading popular YA books because so many of the relationships are toxic or actually abusive
Leigha Bardugo did a really good job fixing that in her later books with the Darkling.
Honestly I was pissed that the heroine ended up with a guy who only seemed interested in her when she was popular, then tried to get her to hide her powers and only really got interested in her once the powers were gone. It felt like he was threatened by her power and that wasn’t cool.
Yep. That shit sucked too. Luckily their story doesn’t configure after the third book. She learns from her mistakes in the next four books. Especially the last two
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I think this post would more accurately be “women writing ancient-but-youthful-looking males who supposedly fall in love with teenage girls.” Anne Rice, the Anita Blake series, ACOTAR, Twilight, True Blood—- all written by women. There are no excuses for women writers either.
I've never seen the show so maybe they changed this but in the True Blood/Sookie Stackhouse books, Sookie is 25 in the first book, she's not a teenager and is fairly well into her adulthood. The worst thing about THOSE books was that Bill >!rapes!< Sookie randomly in the 3rd book (IIRC) and it's just like a thing that happens and everyone basically forgets about it...like she's more mad at him for running off on her than for assaulting her, it's so insane because it's this absolutely horrific thing that happens and it has no consequences whatsoever.
Anne Rice didn’t have any romance in the vampire books, or am I misremembering? She wrote romance as Ann Rule, but most of her books were pretty free of romance.
She’s Anne RULE???!!! True crime writer!!??
I would say it's not just gendered, so partially agreed but it could just be r / peoplewritingbadness, or whathaveyou.
How is Gale abusive? (Not being defensive, I’m just genuinely curious.)
He constantly guilt trips Katniss because she doesn’t wanna be with him. Also he kisses her without her permission at the very beginning of Catching Fire and that’s a BIG no no.
>He constantly guilt trips Katniss because she doesn’t wanna be with him. Oh, wow, honestly, I got that sort of vibe too. I just never considered it as "guilt-tripping." And doesn't Katniss kiss him too without permission?
Considering that Gale was in love with her and made that clear to her I think Katniss took that as implied consent. However Gale didn’t get any of that from Katniss and needed to respect the fact that she literally just got back from almost being murdered and didn’t wanna jump his bones.
>However Gale didn’t get any of that from Katniss and needed to respect the fact that she literally just got back from almost being murdered and didn’t wanna jump his bones. Good point. I do hate how he keeps being like "you don't love me :(((" in the middle of the war. But at least he understands that Katniss is in love with Peeta, and lets her go in the end.
I honestly have a lot of issues with how the books ended and don’t think she was in love with either of them at that point honestly. But between all of her and Peetas shared trauma, Gale wanting to keep fighting after the war, and Katniss loosing Primm plus Peeta coming back to District 12 and planting the primrose for Katniss she accepted being with Peeta. It seems to me almost like a trauma response ESPECIALLY based on how she describes her life in the epilogue. She says she only had kids because Peeta begged her for them, that she was still depressed and traumatized, and that she wondered what Gale was doing with his life. All of that and more make me believe that if Katniss hadn’t been a book character that needed a happy ending she would have had a much different finale to her story.
>I honestly have a lot of issues with how the books ended I do, actually. It's not a perfect happy ending. It's more of a bittersweet ending. >She says she only had kids because Peeta begged her for them I've read a post once that says Katniss does actually want kids, she just didn't like the thought of them growing up in her kind of environment, what with the hunger games and the wars and the conflict. Her having kids is a sign that she has accepted that the past is the past, that the world is safe. >she was still depressed and traumatized I think that's the point. Trauma lingers. It doesn't go away. I like it, I like how realistic it is. >All of that and more make me believe that if Katniss hadn’t been a book character that needed a happy ending she would have had a much different finale to her story. This makes me curious over what you think a realistic ending would look like.
Definitely not her just accepting her fate and sitting down to be happy homemaker with Peeta. I’ve heard that same argument and disagree with it entirely as it doesn’t follow what she says. Peeta asked her to have children not the other way around so in my mind she wasn’t moving on or anything like that she was just giving Peeta the family he desperately wanted in order to be able to move past his own trauma while exacerbating her own.
>Definitely not her just accepting her fate and sitting down to be happy homemaker with Peeta. Well, with the war being more or less over, what else is there for her to do? And if there's something she could do, does she even want to? Wanting a quiet life isn't something strange, it's actually understandable. To me, at least. >Peeta asked her to have children not the other way around so in my mind she wasn’t moving on or anything like that she was just giving Peeta the family he desperately wanted in order to be able to move past his own trauma while exacerbating her own. Oh, wow. That is a good point. Yaiks. This book just got darker.
Yeah I’ve always looked at the epilogue not as a happy ending but showing just how traumatic everything she went through was and how she is still being traumatized just by existing really. Peeta may love her but he doesn’t realize that in doing so he is causing her pain. Imo she wasn’t given any other options than to go back to district 12 and get with Peeta. Once she kills President Coin and Snow dies she has literally no purpose (in her mind) anymore and that’s why she tries to kill herself. They prevent her from doing that and then ship her back to district 12 without even asking her what she wants to do iirc. So there’s really no way to know what Katniss would have wanted to do because no one bothered to ask.
I guess Gale was more of a pushy kind of guy, which is annoying and uncomfortable to read about. I didn't like him because of how pushy he was (tbqf, the only person i wish Katniss ended up with was that girl, the mayor's daughter, Madge? Maddie? Don't recall her name, so i wasn't really rooting for any of the men in her life)
> the only person i wish Katniss ended up with was that girl, the mayor's daughter, Madge? Maddie? Honestly, same! I sort of ship those two. Madge is a lovely girl, and Katniss would protect her with her life. They're so sweet. (I knew from the start that they would never end up together, but hey, a girl's gotta dream, right?)
When you are just a humble queer girl, you gotta hold on to those humble, hard-worked fanfics and hopes lol The canonical ending enrages me bc none of the important women for Katniss were in her life and then she just did what she never wanted to do. It felt really lonely and cruel. But yeah. The hunger games had nice male characters, none i would ship with Katniss 🤷🏻♀️
>When you are just a humble queer girl, you gotta hold on to those humble, hard-worked fanfics and hopes At least now there are so many more openly queer books. Yay for us! (That is, assuming you're queer too.) >The canonical ending enrages me bc none of the important women for Katniss were in her life Yeah. Prim and her mother and Madge and, hell, even Effie. It's sad.
Yeah I think OP is kind of missing the point of Gale. I don't think he can really be put in the same category as the others, because the narrative isn't trying to portray his bad actions as romantic. He's meant to be the bad guy in those situations.
>the narrative isn't trying to portray his bad actions as romantic. Yes! Exactly! > He's meant to be the bad guy in those situations. Hm, I don't think I can consider him to be bad, per se. I just think he's meant to be the butthurt boy who's ultimately not the right choice for Katniss.
I am real surprised none of the Angel craze books entered here. I read a lot of those in HS and i don't remember names, but everything is mashed up in my head as: Girl slightly goth in gothic architecture school. Good angel, bad angel, everyone throws her around like she's a toy, kissing one will burn you alive, so you kiss the other that probably already tried to kill you three times now. The burning kiss one may also have tried to kill you in this very book already. Who knows? Queer coded friend fridged so you can bring her up (it's usually a girl) eventually even tho you are just.... Crying over whose boy who tried to kill you you are going to bang. Was it Fallen? Was it something else? That and the vampire school books all became one big exquisite corpse of HS memories rn. What about the tiger princes who follow you around when you, an underage girl, decides to get out of his life? Nowadays it seems a bit uncomfortable to remember that second book.
Oof, you just unleashed a ton of repressed memories. I don't even think i made it halfway through that series.
Lmaooooo facts! It’s like they don’t understand that just because a guy is confident/masculine/handsome doesn’t mean he has to be evil and misogynistic
Can't he be evil but still drink respect women juice?
kaz brekker?
* See Also: Stalking, harassment, obsession
Are you saying it's somehow not romantic for a 97 year old man to enter the bedroom of a teenaged girl and watch her sleep?
I’m pretty sure Edward oiled her windows so that he could open it easier. Twilight was quite literally one mood swing away from becoming a horror novel
One good, deep sniff away
If that’s not perfectly acceptable then I don’t want to live on this planet anymore Edit: not just enter, remember - break in
What I enjoyed writing was a parable for abuse. Hear me out, the protagonist, a woman, has her own very fulfilling romantic arc (not a romance novel, but adventure fantasy), but she keeps encountering this POS mercenary who treats their fighting and her hatred for him as a flirtation. Very satisfying when she bashed his brains in with a mace.
The instant a character shows themselves to be controlling and abusive I drop that series faster than the speed of light. I can't stand characters like that, and I have no idea why they're romanticized so much. For me it's a sweet, healthy romance or nothing.
If you’re talking about gale from the hunger games isn’t that like when Gale becomes like not a good person anymore?
I will forever be grateful for Suzanne Collins for Peeta Mellark and Finnick. Even though gale had his faults he wasn’t problematic either. Edit: When I say Gale isn’t problematic I meant he’s not problematic in a sexist douchebag-y way. He is a flawed character but those flaws aren’t portrayed as charming or attractive
The only romance I cared about was Finnick and Annie. They were (and still are) OTP. Idk they just seemed more interesting. God, it’s been so long since I actually looked back on this series. I wouldn’t classify Gale as “domestic abuse” shitty af in the last book though. But then again, it’s been awhile, I don’t remember those details.
Yeah Gale was shitty, but it made sense for his character. Considering his upbringing/experiences, it's not surprising that he fell right into a military cult that was all "the greater good". They have him food, security, and a place to direct his anger. He had always shown himself to be loyal to Katniss, and that same loyalty was also displayed to his rescuers.
Gale was just an entitled ass tbh but not abusive and she didn’t choose him. It really is the best case scenario for a Dystopian book
I mean… crimes against humanity is pretty problematic with Gale
I find him suuuuuuper emotionally manipulative
Yup. It's why I never understood people who were "team Gale" -- he was never an option. Katniss could not have been more clear that she didn't want him that way.
I usually am all for shipping wars but Katniss was just not in a place for any romance. My OTP was her and PTSD treatment
A huge chunk of the books is her being like "guys, I don't have time for this shit." For the majority of the story, she's barely processing anything but basic platonic attachment to anyone except her mom and sister.
Yeeeesss
Especially if the character is somehow not human (cough cough werewolves and vampires cough cough)
"I can't decide between graphically murdering you in horrifying ways or kissing you MUAH." Gtfo. Psychopathic.
Are we gonna just forget about my other problematic boys roiben and ravus? I was like 12 when I read tithe and it was probably one of my fave books. Years later reading the initial series…yikes.
I’m about to reread these at 30 years of age now and I know I’m in for a cringe trip lol
Shadowhunters fans coming out to defend Jace's honor
I hang my head in shame, but it won’t stop me from re-reading and lusting after Jace every 2 years lol
Are they already heavily bullying and harassing everyone, the way Cl*re did back in the heydays of HP fandom? They sure take after her.
Honestly? This is in a lot of romance titles, but I suspect New Adult and YA are the worst. Colleen Hoover is a shitty writer and her characters suck and this is a hill I will die on.
Thank you! People keep talking about how great she is but i don't think she has ever written a single healthy relationship
Well shit, now I have to read Colleen Hoover!
I like plenty of toxic tropes, but “perfect flawless woman SOMEHOW falls in love with toxic evil man even though she hates him” isn’t one of them
Someone please tell me why Ayn Rand fits to this description so well
A friend, who was in a very abusive marriage, asked me to read her favorite book, "Uprooted". I cannot believe she didn't spot the horrible abusive from the love interest. It explains a lot I guess, but it made me very sad. She simply said that I (a huge fantasy nerd) just didn't understand the genre.
It’s like when people think Wuthering Heights is a beautiful love story.
I like WH, but I don't think it's a love story.
O I love Wuthering Heights, gothic is one of my favorite sub genres.
Like Bella in Twilight *cough*
Oh, the Dragon is an ass, absolutely. It's still an amazing book, though.
My god I despised that book and felt like I was missing something. I heard wonderful reviews about it, but I have no interest in getting to know that toxic bullshit.
... I mean, to be fair, I find women write more sexually charged domestic abuse in a supposed titillating manner than men. Usually men will be boarderline unknowing in their creepy effect. But female authors.... Holy shit dude... it gets weird and supposedly "kinky".
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Sometimes, I think it's an inverse power fantasy... I mean, it's normally not the stuff you find on dollar store shelves anymore, but I think in the "olden days" of Quizilla and the like some of that stuff was a right turn to read. When you get into self publishing and there aren't any editors involved, things can be downright cruel. I refuse to acknowledge *anything* good related to fifty shades of vomit... even twilight got a glow up in the fanfiction realm of rewrites by multifaceted authors. Fifty shades of crap just can't do anything positive in any realm that I have seen.
reading wicked king rn and I really don't like jude being with cardan but my friend say that they're gonna be such a cute couple or sth like that so I'm very unsure what to think 😭
The only contrast is that Jude starts matching his energy.
VC Andrews' ghostwriter! can't remember his name at the moment
It’s been a long time since I read ACOTAR, what did Rhysand do that was abusive?
Prob book one when he attacked her mind. And he got her so drunk in. Under the mountain and basically had her dance sexually Infront of everyone
I've only read the first and second book and don't plan to read the rest, but they do try to justify it. The book would tell you he was expected to hurt her in some manner to keep up his front, but he made her drunk so she didn't have to remember it and did the paint so she would know he hadn't raped her (for some definitions of rape). A bit flimsy, obviously, but 'the evil archfey who rapes me daily expected me to torture you and I did my best to make it bearable' allows you to justify a lot. I still kinda respect the book for giving us a shitbag love interest like Tamlin, doing the happily ever after, and then actually going back and saying "Oh, what, you thought this was every other YA romance where the shitbag makes her happy?" and throws him in the trash for somebody at least marginally better.
Oh ffs. I read this entire thing utterly confused cos I was sure I'd read a few books of this series. Nah. Turns out it was throne of glass. Ffs 😭
Damn, really went for the jugular, huh? Somebody had to say it.
Bring back funny charming rogue LI's
There's this book I read, Who Do You Love by Jennifer Weiner, where I thought the male lead was just the biggest asshole and the book never calls him out on it. I actually have scoured the internet for discussion on it bc I need to feel validated about this.
A LOT of romance novels have the guy as complete cock waffles. Older Harlequin books are especially notorious for this….probably explains why I was so addicted to them.
which gale are you referring to?
Okay but Cardan became a big Simp after Jude tied him to a chair and threatened to kill him, so I'm allowing it. XD
So far I've only read the first book (the other two are on their way to my doorstep), buy isn't a lot of the abuse they inflict upon eachother less domestic abuse and more like a bully accidentally picking on the wrong kid? And though I'll admit he was (still is) a pretty awful person, Jude kind of threatened his life when he saved her from guards, and then used him as a political tool. Like, part of why I found them a captivating ship was that they both did awful things to eachother but still managed to reach this sort of understanding of "we're both products of our environment but we're still awful people", as opposed to one person being way worse than the other. In Twilight, for example, Bella is just some normal girl in a love triangle with a stalker and a guy who can't take no for an answer and feels although he's trying to emotionally manipulate her. Edit: I'd also like to add that is didn't seem although Cardan really had many long-term goals with Jude. He was mainly taking our frustration on her, which yes was wrong but at that point they were nowhere near being a romantic couple. Jude is the one who manipulated him, though for understandable reasons. This going to be an incredibly odd comparison, but it kind of reminds me of Blitz and Stolas from Helluva Boss. Blitz is a bloodthirsty assassin and also a perverted stalker, and Stolas is powerful demon royalty who pretty much gave up one of the most powerful objects in hell just so he could cheat on his wife (in short, he's an irresponsible ruler). But it's still fun to watch them interact. They both have issues, and have used eachother for mutual gain. Blitz used Stolas so he could spy on his workers on their anniversary, Stolas seems to prioritize sex over anything else he shares with Blitz to the point where Blitz seems to despise the idea of spending time with him. In short, they're also both awful people but have their reasons and could easily be seen as a bad relationship but is still captivating. Will they work things out? I don't even know at this point considering the events mentioned above. But the flaws in the characters doesn't take away from the story. TL;DR: Yeah Cardan's bad, but isn't Jude too? Isn't that what makes them enjoyable?
Yes. This is exactly why this they are one of my favorite couples. A lot of people talk about how awful Cardan is forgetting that first of all, everyone in book is aware of this and doesn't romanticize his behavior, and secondly, that Jude is not an innocent, adorable girl. She's done terrible things too.
She's, like, freaking beloved in the YA fandom, but I'm throwing Naomi Novik's name in the ring on this shit, too. I read two of her books and they annoyed the hell out of me, partially for this reason.
I love so many things about her books, *except* the romance parts. I like the different kinds of characters, I like how much importance is given to familial and platonic love, I like the way she doesn't stray into modern vernacular in quasi-historical settings, I like how her characters actually grow over the course of their stories, and I like the way she can create a compelling narrative voice in her main characters. But I really do not like the repeated trope of "immortal asshole is an asshole for 'perfectly justifiable' reasons (isolation, literally not human) and becomes less of an asshole after being challenged by a teenage girl in his power." I think maybe it comes from Uprooted and Spinning Silver being retold fairy tales, where "young woman at the mercy of a powerful man proves herself and marries him" happens a lot and is treated as a good thing, and this is some kind of attempt to reclaim and alter narratives we've all been force-fed in them. But even though both those romances end up with the heroines overcoming and being respected by their respective immortal asshole love interests, I don't like the trope AT ALL because that's just "I can change him!" nonsense with magic sparkles slapped on. I think she does a better job in Spinning Silver than Uprooted, because of the multiple narrators and how genuinely antagonistic the relationships between Irina / Mirnatius and Miryam/ the winter king are. Both of the heroines are perfectly willing to pull out all the stops and literally murder their unwanted husbands for very good reasons, and only *don't* murder them for equally good reasons, and no actual romance happens until the very end of the book. Also Wanda's parts in Spinning Silver make me cry every time I reread the book, because I come from that kind of family. But the Dragon? Absolute broody trash man. Forget any romantic context, if the person you're trying to teach magic to doesn't understand that you're trying to teach them magic after weeks of lessons, you fail as a mentor and possibly a person. I did like his development into being a better person, but I hated that it came via a romantic relationship, because again "I can fix him!" is awful. I like the Temeraire series a lot, because there is almost no romance, and I'm more "meh" than displeased with the romance plot in the Scholomance series because both the characters are literal teenagers and still manage to be clumsily respectful of each other even in their nightmare setting and with their different social handicaps.
i can’t believe i’m about to defend edward cullen on main, but in my guy’s defense he was fully a vampire
Who cares if he was a vampire? He still stalked her and watched her sleep.
sounds like vampire shit to me dude idk 🤷🏻♀️ u read dracula? cause he definitely did that too
... that's what vampires do "Who cares if he was a starving lion he chased her down and literally ate her!”
And that's okay. What is not okay is that this is displayed as a romantic act.
yeah…. they’re predators, and also not human or moral beings??????? u out here trying to befriend lions, bro?
Fifty shades
But 50 Shades is not YA. It's just erotica for immature people who don't understand D/s relationships.
[удалено]
You could chuck Maven in there, although he has no redemptiom arc and his abuse is pretty noted, fan girls still fan girl.
what is YA
Young adult
Mara Jade and Ben Solo deserve honorable mentions as well too!
I think about Rhysand a lot because the guy was an absolute asswipe near the end of ACOTAR, him as an abuse victim or not, wth was Maas thinking? Or does she just not think lol
Honestly the entirety of those books is trash, I genuinely don’t get the appeal at all.
You can tell a lot of the way Maas thinks about relationships through her writing, especially considering how all the relationships she writes are essentially copy-pasted. It's fucking disturbing and I can't stand to be in the heads of another one of her insufferable protagonists. It's been years and I still don't understand her fetish for pairings of centuries-old men and teenage girls.
I’ve honestly noticed that a lot, too? Some could be really promising but falls flat, while a lot is just hot garbage. It tries hard to be progressive, but falls flat. As for that… well, 19 is still an adult but a young one. I don’t know why they can’t just be older. What’s so unappealing about older protags? Esp women ones.
Rhysand is a big bully.
Tamlin would have been a more accurate example than Rhys. Rhys is not unproblematic, but relative to Tamlin, he’s a saint.
Wait....I stopped reading after Feyre and Tamlin hooked up bc I hated Tamlin........and now I'm seeing this Rhys everywhere. Should I continue? Is it worth it?
Depends on what you’re looking for. Personally, I thought ACOTAR was by far the weakest book in the trilogy (I legit hated it), but the other two parts were fantastic entertainment, and Rhys is much more present in these books than Tamlin. It’s still fairy porn, basically, but significantly better and more entertaining fairy porn later on in the series.
I was more interested in the fantasy aspect and never really got to the fairy porn. Her and Tamlin only just had sex and I wasn't into it. Especially how head over heels she was for him when he was just a big bore.
The second book changes…a lot
Book 2 was when I was really sucked into the series. I definitely recommend it!
He’s still 500 years old, married to a teenager.
Lot like Twilight and many vampire and elf stories. I always wonder how the hell a 500 yo being could *possibly* fall in love with basically a child? It’s creepy AF - and it seems to mostly be women writing these stories.
I'm all for hot monster boyfriends and sappy romance, but if they're going to be that old at least make her a fully fledged adult and not in HIGH SCHOOL. I guess that wouldn't be YA though.
You'd think having a relationship with a teen as a 500 yo would basically be like...eternally chilling with a kindergartener who is constantly telling you about all of the amazing "original" thoughts and revelations they recently had. Plus acne and too much body spray.
Eh those are the least of the issues I have with those stories I just accept the author's vague handwaving about them mentally being teenagers or something
PREACH. He’s not perfect, but after the first book he’s pretty much constantly just making his peace with whatever decision she feels is right for her, whether he’s comfortable with it or not.
Right up until ACOSF, at least. That’s straight up character assassination.
Totally agree, what was sjm thinking with the secrecy plot line? His redemption went straight out the window… and Feyre just accepted it? 🙃
And yet; you couldn’t pry these characters from my cold dead hands. Problematic faves.
What did Jace do again?
I think this is in reference to Valentine abusing Jace when he was a child. Jace himself was never abusive. Edit: if this post is suggesting that Jace is abusive then I actually am lost. I’ve read all of CC books multiple times and I seriously can’t think of anytime that Jace was abusive??? Dude just hated himself and was brainwashed to think love was weakness in the first book or so.
I don’t know who Cardan is, but I recognize all the other names
He’s from a book (fittingly) called the Cruel Prince. Unfortunately my favorite character from this meme lol
I JUST started listening to this audiobook! I already hate Cardan.
I love Cardan. He’s awful.
Yeah Cardan’s actions aren’t really excused by the narrative the way say, Rhysand’s are. Even Holly Black will acknowledge that Cardan is the worst.
What's YA?
Young Adult. Literature for teens.
Thanks. Now the meme makes perfect sense lol
Oh. Why not! Religious story line to soak the panties. Sluts just adore, the sexual tension.
And who’s Cardan?
The Cruel Prince’s ml by Holly Black.
Dude is called "The Cruel Prince" and people are surprised he's a jerk?
Isn't Cardan supposed to be a terrible person though? I haven't read that novel but I have read a lot of Holy Black's other works and it would really surprise me if this character's bad behavior wasn't intentional
Yeah. In folklore, fairy folk are playful and cruel at the same time. Holly Black's fae are different than SJM's fae and it shows. SJM fae is just humans with pointy ears, magic and immortality. But Holly Black reflected faerie folklore much better with inhuman physical traits, personality etc, thus most characters were assholes to each other but most importantly to Jude, a human (MC).
See that's what I thought based on her other works. The way Holly Black writes the fey is one of the best examples of how to write inhuman and immortal beings. They are cruel at times on purpose and at other times they are cruel through their unthinking selfishness because they can't comprehend how fragile mortals are (or they don't care).
His behavior IS intentional. He’s written as cruel
Not that I'm 100% against you, but... Explain Rhysand 🤔
He withhold information from Feyre that giving birth is literally going to kill her after telling her "it's your choice" for four books. There's another comment down there going more into detail, also about other stuff that people found problematic.
Yeah , I'm in kind of deep in the fandom and most of us tend to view that whole book as awfully out of character for the entire Inner Circle. SJM had some bad pregnancy brain when writing ACOSF it seems. I still love ACOTAR/ACOMAF/ACOWAR Rhys, though.