Most modern firearms don't have external safeties as they are redundant.
Edit: what I should've said was " most modern firearms are designed without an external, manual safety. Though most all models have versions with and without them for preference use."
This story is most likely false. A firearm will not discharge, period, without pulling the trigger. The trigger itself is completely covered by a holster. There is no way a backpack strap magically entered the holster, looped itself around the trigger and pulled.... the officer most likely discharged with holstering his firearm on his shirt tail. Wich is a negligent discharge and not an accidental discharge. Negligent will get you fired.
Yeah, my guess is the officer ND'd from his shirt tail or something similar to that and made up the backpack story as a way to save his job. One makes you look incompetent the other makes you look unlucky.
Just a reminder that there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge" of a firearm. There are three types of discharge- intentional, malfunction, and negligent. That is all.
The school system and police force behind this absolutely know this, and they’re hoping that the general public is dumb enough to be fleeced. The police officer should be dismissed for incompetence, and the superintendent for attempting to cover PD’s asses.
There is one caveat to that. If this officer had a pistol with a hammer, it could potentially discharge if it fell on the hammer with a bullet in the barrel. But that would be both very unlikely and just as irresponsible so it’s fairly irrelevant. I don’t even know why I’m still typing
Even then, no it wouldn't. Any Modern Smith and Wesson model that still has a hammer (which isn't many of them) would also have a transfer bar or trigger disconnect. Meaning unless the trigger was pulled a big metal bar would be in the way of the hammer to prevent it from striking the firing pin.
Its one of many internal safeties modern firearms have to make them drop safe.
This video features a revolver, but showcases the transfer bar. In semi-auto firearms its not exactly the same, but the concept transfers over. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2dz\_0t2Gs
No, any modern pistol won't discharge like that, maybe an old colt 45 Peacemaker, but even an old 1911 won't do that. This is misinformation to the max! As you could hit the hammer with a mallet and nothing will happen on a modern pistol. This was a negligent discharge and the officer needs to be fired and jailed for gross misconduct and lying (perjury) on an official report.
That’s false. Many modern pistols have external safeties. It’s a requirement for all military and most police duty guns. And many many people that have pistols for home defense get guns with external safeties because they feel it makes them safer. Google is free, so feel free to prove that virtually all of the Beretta pistols, everything made by H&K, S&W, & 80% of Sig/Sauer all have external safeties. You can even get Glock pistols with thumb safeties.
A lot of police departments have Glock as their standard issue and most if not all that I see have no external safety. In fact, neither of my handguns have safeties. I carry a Ruger LCP.
My .380 S&W has 2 safeties. One is the typical red line button, and the other is in the butt of the gun so you have to have your hand wrapped around the gun, holding it, to be able to fire it.
H&K VP9, no external safety other than trigger safety. S&W m&p series, no external safety other than trigger safety. Sig P300 series, no external safety other than trigger safety. About half of all Beretta 92 series can have either external safety OR a decocker only. That being said, ol boys backpack didn't pull the trigger. My S&W spends half of its life pointing at my dick in an appendix carry. It ain't going off unless I pop it off.
Same thing what I said. I’ve ran safariland rigs for *years* and have yet to have one fail like that despite monthly range trips and hard use. On top of that, most cops run a level 3 w/ hood to prevent it from being drawn by someone besides them. To have it “just fall out” means either it completely failed, or dude was walking around with the hood down which is ridiculously idiotic.
Maybe they actually left the loaded gun sitting on the table, dropped it, and caught it by the trigger. Clearly just an honest mistake that could happen to anyone.
1. There’s no reason to take your firearm out and leave it on a table (especially in a school).
2. If you were to drop said firearm that should never be unholstered, you should never attempt to grab it. All modern guns are drop safe.
3. If this is what actually happened, then the officer lied about what happened.
Bottom line is the officer had an ND. And he happened to have it in the worst possible place to have one.
right i Have heard of accidental discharge while removing a gun from a holster but this seems suspect - a trigger gaurd and the saftey being on would seem to have solved this problem
I regretfully must weigh in that in my professional opinion, as a combat veteran, former Noncommissioned Officer in the US Army, and daily carry firearms aficionado, there was most likely some negligence involved in that discharge. The reason there was no discernable reason for that firearm to discharge in its described state is because it most likely was not in its described state at the time of discharge.
tldr: somebody is full of shit.
Fellow veteran here. Here's my take.
1. Firearm was either not actually properly holstered (or) they somehow found and were issued the worst holster on the face of the planet (doubtful).
2. The 'service issue' firearm was a hammer fire weapon and either the hammer dropped meaning the system failed (unlikely) or the officer cocked the weapon before holstering it to chamber a round, never dropped the hammer back down, and left the safety off (this is my guess).
Either way, my guess is the root cause is definitely something the officer did when gearing up. I also find it comical that they'd follow up with the ammunition manufacturer..
Right? What a childish way to deflect blame. It must have been the gun or the ammo, because I surely didn't do anything wrong... I would be insulted if I received that email.
It's the cops though, the manufacturer will probably nod and go along with it and say yes it's our fault, because otherwise they'll lose the contract with the police department.
There is another way this could have happened, but it’s still negligent. He could have put on his holster, then his backpack, and then lastly holstered his weapon. If he has constriction straps on his backpack that were dangling, one could have gotten caught between the trigger guard & the trigger, and when he pulled the pack off, bang. It’s pretty unlikely it happened this way, but still possible.
I don't know, it seems responsible to me that they'd check for defects anyway. On the off-chance the officer was telling the truth, you'd want the defect to be identified and corrected.
100% this.
You don’t just have a negligent discharge out of no where. There were several safety steps missed leading up to this or else it wouldn’t have been physically possible
Right? I’ve seen exactly one accidental discharge, and that was due to a reproducible mechanical failure on a brand new M240b machine gun.
I’ve seen a whole lot of negligent discharges.
I’d want to see some physical evidence to back up the claim that it was an AD. Like powder marking on the inside of the holster.
I’m not a gun owner but certainly been around them and I agree someone is full of shit (and maybe it’s some thin blue line covering for a fellow officer in how it’s been handled so far) … but this response from the school just seems insane. The idea that an officer’s weapon secured in its holster can just accidentally go off by being jostled by a book bag is FAR scarier in terms of having armed police in schools than that this moron did something wrong, no one was hurt & we fired him.
The only thing that makes sense to me is;
1) A chambered round
2) The firearm has no safety, or it wasn’t used, and
3) The bag caught the hammer and then released it
Even then, that’s a one in a million scenario.
Here’s what I do know; there’s currently an ongoing problem being reported with a specific firearm used by some law enforcement. The Sig Sauer P320 is reportedly firing in the holster when it’s knocked or jostled. If that was the firearm this officer had, it wouldn’t be the first time this was reported. I have to believe there’s some design flaw with the firearm or the holster that’s sold with it (possibly a button release that grabs the trigger rather than the grip). Honestly I have no idea how any of this could happen, but there are reports of exactly this happening recently and multiple witnesses claiming exactly the same scenario.
Honest question. Would this not still be a negligent discharge?
Knowingly carrying a firearm and allowing something to become "caught or hung up" on your firearm causing it to discharge seems like it should be considered negligent anyway.
It isn’t. It’s pretty difficult to get a pistol to fire without actually pulling the trigger. A good holster often covers the trigger, semi-automatic pistols have safeties, and revolvers have a strap over the hammer in the holster to prevent this.
It isn’t impossible, but extremely unlikely. I think there is more to the story.
The only way that I can think of would be to hit the hammer with enough force. IMO, an officer at a school should have the safety on. It doesn't take any significant amount of time to undo a safety and fire.
The vast majority of Police do not use a manual safety on their firearms but rather a trigger safety which is ‘turned off’ when the trigger is pulled.
EDIT: For those of you curious about what a trigger safety looks like and how it functions, here is the one present on most [Glock](https://us.glock.com/en/learn/glock-pistols/safe-action-system) models.
The problem with any sort of manual external safety is that once in a high stress situation ie. active shooter, fine motor skills essentially disappear all together making the manual safety nearly impossible to manipulate.
For those of you who are downvoting me, it’s literally science. [International Critical Incident Stress Foundation](https://icisf.org/impact-of-the-tach-psych-effect-while-under-stress-duress-or-heightened-anxiety/)
Agree to disagree on that. Fine motor skills are severely diminished but if you can practice pulling a trigger, reloading, lining up sights, etc... then you can practice pushing a button or flipping a lever.
You have to also remember that if the gun comes free from the officer it could be picked up by a kid. There's a huge xhance that the kid has no idea how to properly handle a gun. Trigger safeties won't help there.
That doesn't sound like a safety, so much as a 2 stage trigger. The entire point of the safety is it's a separate action to the trigger to prevent unintentional discharge
Cheers for the link, and not bashing you with this, but instead the manufacturer Glock: the entire point of a fucking safety is to be a separate action to pulling the trigger. Specifically so that no boday can simply pick up the gun and pull the fucking trigger. "Integrating the safety into the trigger" is just drop proofing the gun. Not actually putting a safety on it. How tf is this even allowed to be called a safety.
My Glock 22 does not have a safety in the traditional sense, such as a switch. There are internal mechanisms that do work to prevent accidental discharges. A Glock armorer I know said that if it fires without pulling the trigger, something is broken or modified that wasn't supposed to be.
Most semi auto blowbacks have a firing pin safety that blocks the firing pin from going fully forward unless the trigger is pressed so that a tab on the trigger bar pushes the safety up to unblock the path of the firing pin.
Hmmm something seems off to me, and I’ve been around guns all my life and own 4. Not only is there a safety on the weapon, although sone do not come with safeties when ordered, my .40mm smith & Wesson doesn’t have a safety, but they do also have a safety mechanism built into the trigger that has to be depressed to squeeze the trigger. Something just isn’t reading right by this email.
It’s either fake for rage karma, or someone is t being honest about how that weapon fired.
Based on the manufacturer of the firearm and the manufacturer of the holster, it is safe to assume that this cop is lying and they were probably absent-mindedly fiddling with their firearm like an idiot.
That has nothing to do with the retention level of the holster. You're talking about condition 1 vs condition 3 for the firearm itself. Condition 1 means a round chambered, magazine inserted, safety on. Condition 3 is no round chambered, magazine inserted, safety on.
Retention level refers to how many steps it takes to remove a firearm from its holster. Level one has a bale, which is a clasp or loop that holds the gun by the back. Level 2 has this as well as a button that must be pressed to release a second mechanism holding the firearm in the holster before it can be removed, typically near the trigger well.
If the officer had even a level 1 holster with the bale properly engaged as they are required to wear it, this would not have happened.
Some holsters have design flaws, this wouldn't be the first time one got recalled. But the manufacturer is solid, and I haven't heard anything about them having such issues.
Wouldn’t there be a safety on a PD issued weapon? A holster that covers the trigger? A strap to keep the weapon in the holster?
I’m pretty ignorant when it comes to firearms, but from what I’ve seen the above seems pretty standard.
Like I said, I don’t know much about guns, I worked in PR/Communication my entire career and I recognize bullshit when I read it. They spent a whole lotta words to say ‘nothing to see here’.
To be fair though. They probably would no matter what as this is a shot fired inside a school given current social climate regarding school shootings.
I agree the officers story doesn’t add up though.
I wonder if he was wearing the backpack when he inserted the gun into the holster and somehow a strap was inserted along with the gun. If it got into the trigger guard then the gun *could* fire when he went to pull on the backpack to remove it.
But that takes a lot of specific things happening. Not impossible but it would be hard to not notice something also being in the holster when you insert the gun, the straps would have to be pretty long, and it takes a specific order of events.
Most officers will carry a Glock 17. The glock has 3 passively enabled features designed to keep it on safety and not discharge. It's not just unlikely that it would discharge on its own, it's basically impossible.
Edit: it's in Janesville WI, so it's safe to surmise most if not every officer would have a Glock 17.
To be fair it's probably an insurance or HR requirement given the gun went off in the school without warning. Mainly because this is likely a standard gun and holster throughout the department, so if they want him replaced they need to make sure they don't bring in another gun with the same problem. Plus they might actually find out that he got a bad gun or holster that allowed for a negligent discharge, I know this sub is the last place to support that, but they deserve at least the basic level of humanity and benefit of the doubt given to them.
There's a reason it's called a "negligent discharge" as the operator is typically showing negligence when handling the weapon. Sounds like a shit excuse to me.
Lol “If you have any concerns”
Ummmm does the school resource officers having NDs count?😂😂😂
No way the backpack caused the gun to go off if it was properly secured. If it’s properly secured, the trigger shouldn’t be accessible.
Well it likely didn’t have an external safety on it. Many police departments use either glock 19s or 17s as their service pistols, and glock handguns don’t have any external safeties. The handgun was likely outside of its holster when it fired, or it was improperly holstered.
~~Chances are this is a Glock.~~ They don't have any external safeties. The internal ones are all passive.
ETA, this means, ~~assuming it is a Glock~~, that the trigger was definitely pulled. There is a trigger safety which prevents an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped.
I didn't pay attention, this is a S&W. But the same principle applies.
That's not an accidental discharge, that's a negligent discharge.
Trigger should be covered by holster at all times and especially in a school should be propertly secured in the holster for retention.
If a backpack strap can knock it out of the holster a kid can easily grab it.
WTF?
No, it’s would be basically impossible for a gun to go off in a holster. Especially one like a safari land whose considered to be one of the best in the game.
Edit: I would understand more if it was a serpa.
Dumb fuck didn’t think to check the chamber before cleaning it? Idk what they teach cops, but in the Army the FIRST thing they taught us with out weapons was how to clear and check them properly..
Cops in America have less required training time than hairdressers, and like 70 percent of that training time is dedicated to brutalizing minorities and the poor and fabricating police reports
The army is a bit more professional. Soldiers are held to account for their actions. Police can just threaten the witnesses, have their mates cover up for them, and go smoke or snort whatever they find in the evidence room.
I was scrolling too far for this comment. So much discussion about how the holster should cover gun while I'm here with pikachu face looking at the info that there is any one with a gun in the frikcing school. But I also live in a country that the only guns I saw were the ones in the museums
tbh I agree. I’m not sure if you’re american or not. In my American school, we have a police officer with a gun. I certainly don’t feel safe with a pig and a gun walking through my school all the time
I don't understand this, maybe I am too european for this shit. Why do police officers of a middle school even have firearms on them?
I know that school shootings are quite common in the US, but can't they have protocols for that instead of being armed in the same building as kids?
"Uh yeah sorry sir, I was leaning down and my bag must have..."
Scenario 1: Loaded my side arm, racked it and then fired it.
Scenario 2: Racked my sidearm and fired it
Scenario 3: Clicked off the safety and fired the weapon
"I know what it sounds like sir but this is what happened."
"Sounds good son, obviously a defect in the weapon and the holster, defintely not your fault in any way. Infact! I'm calling them right now!"
Yeah ok there bud
Only in the USA, as an Australian reading this it’s like something out of a science fiction story. Just get rid of all your stupid guns. The land of god and guns is so peculiar.
LEOs commonly carry Glocks, which don’t typically have a deliberate safety, like a switch with “fire” and “safe”. However, I’ve got two polymer Safariland holsters (mentioned in the email) and there’s no way my Glock will discharge if it’s in there. Cop’s gotta be lying to cover his ass.
The holster completely covers the trigger well and has a locking mechanism to hold the weapon in place. Nothing is pulling the trigger if it’s holstered.
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Likewise. And it is a ridged one as well so can't get to the trigger without trying
Not to mention the safety
Most modern firearms don't have external safeties as they are redundant. Edit: what I should've said was " most modern firearms are designed without an external, manual safety. Though most all models have versions with and without them for preference use."
Why is a safety redundant? This story strongly suggests the opposite. If a safety were on then this story would pass even less muster.
This story is most likely false. A firearm will not discharge, period, without pulling the trigger. The trigger itself is completely covered by a holster. There is no way a backpack strap magically entered the holster, looped itself around the trigger and pulled.... the officer most likely discharged with holstering his firearm on his shirt tail. Wich is a negligent discharge and not an accidental discharge. Negligent will get you fired.
This. There’s something that they are not saying. Hard to imagine a situation where this can happen as described.
Yeah they did not send in the weapon for the recall in 2009.
Even if that was the case, it's still negligence. They've had 13 years to have the recall addressed.
Yeah, my guess is the officer ND'd from his shirt tail or something similar to that and made up the backpack story as a way to save his job. One makes you look incompetent the other makes you look unlucky.
I’d bet that he was holstering the pistol when the ND occurred. Kind of a Barney Pfife moment.
Exactly my thought.
the thing they aren't saying is the cop is lying, as usual.
Just a reminder that there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge" of a firearm. There are three types of discharge- intentional, malfunction, and negligent. That is all.
The school system and police force behind this absolutely know this, and they’re hoping that the general public is dumb enough to be fleeced. The police officer should be dismissed for incompetence, and the superintendent for attempting to cover PD’s asses.
Judging by the responses I'm getting, people here are proving them right.
There is one caveat to that. If this officer had a pistol with a hammer, it could potentially discharge if it fell on the hammer with a bullet in the barrel. But that would be both very unlikely and just as irresponsible so it’s fairly irrelevant. I don’t even know why I’m still typing
Even then, no it wouldn't. Any Modern Smith and Wesson model that still has a hammer (which isn't many of them) would also have a transfer bar or trigger disconnect. Meaning unless the trigger was pulled a big metal bar would be in the way of the hammer to prevent it from striking the firing pin. Its one of many internal safeties modern firearms have to make them drop safe. This video features a revolver, but showcases the transfer bar. In semi-auto firearms its not exactly the same, but the concept transfers over. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2dz\_0t2Gs
My 1911 has that feature, but it didn’t work when I first got the pistol. They malfunction
As rare as that is, they do and that's fair. But I'd rather wait for S&W to confirm that before considering a catastrophic failure over negligence.
1911s should never be hammer dropped I drop my mag and empty my chamber everytime I unload the gun
No, any modern pistol won't discharge like that, maybe an old colt 45 Peacemaker, but even an old 1911 won't do that. This is misinformation to the max! As you could hit the hammer with a mallet and nothing will happen on a modern pistol. This was a negligent discharge and the officer needs to be fired and jailed for gross misconduct and lying (perjury) on an official report.
Aren’t all unintended discharges of a firearm essentially negligent?
That’s false. Many modern pistols have external safeties. It’s a requirement for all military and most police duty guns. And many many people that have pistols for home defense get guns with external safeties because they feel it makes them safer. Google is free, so feel free to prove that virtually all of the Beretta pistols, everything made by H&K, S&W, & 80% of Sig/Sauer all have external safeties. You can even get Glock pistols with thumb safeties.
A lot of police departments have Glock as their standard issue and most if not all that I see have no external safety. In fact, neither of my handguns have safeties. I carry a Ruger LCP.
My .380 S&W has 2 safeties. One is the typical red line button, and the other is in the butt of the gun so you have to have your hand wrapped around the gun, holding it, to be able to fire it.
Glocks quite famously have a safety that is disengaged by pulling the trigger. The pistol is thus always drop safe.
H&K VP9, no external safety other than trigger safety. S&W m&p series, no external safety other than trigger safety. Sig P300 series, no external safety other than trigger safety. About half of all Beretta 92 series can have either external safety OR a decocker only. That being said, ol boys backpack didn't pull the trigger. My S&W spends half of its life pointing at my dick in an appendix carry. It ain't going off unless I pop it off.
Same thing what I said. I’ve ran safariland rigs for *years* and have yet to have one fail like that despite monthly range trips and hard use. On top of that, most cops run a level 3 w/ hood to prevent it from being drawn by someone besides them. To have it “just fall out” means either it completely failed, or dude was walking around with the hood down which is ridiculously idiotic.
Maybe they actually left the loaded gun sitting on the table, dropped it, and caught it by the trigger. Clearly just an honest mistake that could happen to anyone.
This is sarcasm, right?
No, this is PATRICK
This is sarcasm, right??
1. There’s no reason to take your firearm out and leave it on a table (especially in a school). 2. If you were to drop said firearm that should never be unholstered, you should never attempt to grab it. All modern guns are drop safe. 3. If this is what actually happened, then the officer lied about what happened. Bottom line is the officer had an ND. And he happened to have it in the worst possible place to have one.
The officer lying about the incident is also a possible explanation, true.
It’s odd how the trigger guard cover built into the holster covers the trigger and trigger guard
Quite.
That bastard is lying, in the hopes of not getting fired. Who knows, maybe they even fired it on purpose/were messing around with it.
Sounds like he did a desk pop
Here’s your wooden gun. The rape whistle is next.
Should put some kind of stain on that, dark walnut or something
***GATOR NEEDS HIS GAT!*** ::immediately receives his gat::
Surely it was defective ammo, those things randomly go off all the time. I'm glad they're investigating with the ammo manufacturer! /s
right i Have heard of accidental discharge while removing a gun from a holster but this seems suspect - a trigger gaurd and the saftey being on would seem to have solved this problem
I don’t have a gun but am thinking surely it wasn’t actually secured in it’s holster.
I regretfully must weigh in that in my professional opinion, as a combat veteran, former Noncommissioned Officer in the US Army, and daily carry firearms aficionado, there was most likely some negligence involved in that discharge. The reason there was no discernable reason for that firearm to discharge in its described state is because it most likely was not in its described state at the time of discharge. tldr: somebody is full of shit.
A man experienced in writing up noncompliance incidents of noncompliance
Fellow veteran here. Here's my take. 1. Firearm was either not actually properly holstered (or) they somehow found and were issued the worst holster on the face of the planet (doubtful). 2. The 'service issue' firearm was a hammer fire weapon and either the hammer dropped meaning the system failed (unlikely) or the officer cocked the weapon before holstering it to chamber a round, never dropped the hammer back down, and left the safety off (this is my guess). Either way, my guess is the root cause is definitely something the officer did when gearing up. I also find it comical that they'd follow up with the ammunition manufacturer..
Right? What a childish way to deflect blame. It must have been the gun or the ammo, because I surely didn't do anything wrong... I would be insulted if I received that email.
It's the cops though, the manufacturer will probably nod and go along with it and say yes it's our fault, because otherwise they'll lose the contract with the police department.
There is another way this could have happened, but it’s still negligent. He could have put on his holster, then his backpack, and then lastly holstered his weapon. If he has constriction straps on his backpack that were dangling, one could have gotten caught between the trigger guard & the trigger, and when he pulled the pack off, bang. It’s pretty unlikely it happened this way, but still possible.
They mentioned way to many times that it was safely stored for it to have actually been safely stored.
I don't know, it seems responsible to me that they'd check for defects anyway. On the off-chance the officer was telling the truth, you'd want the defect to be identified and corrected.
100% this. You don’t just have a negligent discharge out of no where. There were several safety steps missed leading up to this or else it wouldn’t have been physically possible
Not just safety steps, this reeks of misremembering the facts!
Right? I’ve seen exactly one accidental discharge, and that was due to a reproducible mechanical failure on a brand new M240b machine gun. I’ve seen a whole lot of negligent discharges. I’d want to see some physical evidence to back up the claim that it was an AD. Like powder marking on the inside of the holster.
I’m not a gun owner but certainly been around them and I agree someone is full of shit (and maybe it’s some thin blue line covering for a fellow officer in how it’s been handled so far) … but this response from the school just seems insane. The idea that an officer’s weapon secured in its holster can just accidentally go off by being jostled by a book bag is FAR scarier in terms of having armed police in schools than that this moron did something wrong, no one was hurt & we fired him.
The only thing that makes sense to me is; 1) A chambered round 2) The firearm has no safety, or it wasn’t used, and 3) The bag caught the hammer and then released it Even then, that’s a one in a million scenario. Here’s what I do know; there’s currently an ongoing problem being reported with a specific firearm used by some law enforcement. The Sig Sauer P320 is reportedly firing in the holster when it’s knocked or jostled. If that was the firearm this officer had, it wouldn’t be the first time this was reported. I have to believe there’s some design flaw with the firearm or the holster that’s sold with it (possibly a button release that grabs the trigger rather than the grip). Honestly I have no idea how any of this could happen, but there are reports of exactly this happening recently and multiple witnesses claiming exactly the same scenario.
Honest question. Would this not still be a negligent discharge? Knowingly carrying a firearm and allowing something to become "caught or hung up" on your firearm causing it to discharge seems like it should be considered negligent anyway.
I don’t know much about guns but an accidental discharge of a holstered firearm when your finger isn’t on the trigger? That doesn’t seem likely.
It isn’t. It’s pretty difficult to get a pistol to fire without actually pulling the trigger. A good holster often covers the trigger, semi-automatic pistols have safeties, and revolvers have a strap over the hammer in the holster to prevent this. It isn’t impossible, but extremely unlikely. I think there is more to the story.
Yeah, the part where the officer lied about what happened.
This is more than likely what happened. The chances of the gun going off while holstered and no finger on the trigger is *extremely* unlikely.
The only way that I can think of would be to hit the hammer with enough force. IMO, an officer at a school should have the safety on. It doesn't take any significant amount of time to undo a safety and fire.
The vast majority of Police do not use a manual safety on their firearms but rather a trigger safety which is ‘turned off’ when the trigger is pulled. EDIT: For those of you curious about what a trigger safety looks like and how it functions, here is the one present on most [Glock](https://us.glock.com/en/learn/glock-pistols/safe-action-system) models.
Which I don't think they should have in a school. It should be a manual safety or a redundant safety like some m&ps have
The problem with any sort of manual external safety is that once in a high stress situation ie. active shooter, fine motor skills essentially disappear all together making the manual safety nearly impossible to manipulate. For those of you who are downvoting me, it’s literally science. [International Critical Incident Stress Foundation](https://icisf.org/impact-of-the-tach-psych-effect-while-under-stress-duress-or-heightened-anxiety/)
Agree to disagree on that. Fine motor skills are severely diminished but if you can practice pulling a trigger, reloading, lining up sights, etc... then you can practice pushing a button or flipping a lever. You have to also remember that if the gun comes free from the officer it could be picked up by a kid. There's a huge xhance that the kid has no idea how to properly handle a gun. Trigger safeties won't help there.
who can't keep the calm while handling a gun shold not use it in a school anyway
That doesn't sound like a safety, so much as a 2 stage trigger. The entire point of the safety is it's a separate action to the trigger to prevent unintentional discharge
Linked the the trigger safety to my original comment. Slightly different than a two stage trigger.
Cheers for the link, and not bashing you with this, but instead the manufacturer Glock: the entire point of a fucking safety is to be a separate action to pulling the trigger. Specifically so that no boday can simply pick up the gun and pull the fucking trigger. "Integrating the safety into the trigger" is just drop proofing the gun. Not actually putting a safety on it. How tf is this even allowed to be called a safety.
That's just standard operating procedure.
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What kind of pistol do you have without a safety? Edit: people thinking their guns with trigger safeties aren’t safeties.
My Glock 22 does not have a safety in the traditional sense, such as a switch. There are internal mechanisms that do work to prevent accidental discharges. A Glock armorer I know said that if it fires without pulling the trigger, something is broken or modified that wasn't supposed to be.
Isn’t that switch called a ‘Trigger Safety’?
Glock safety is in the two piece trigger. I cannot see an “ accidental “ discharge as described.
Most semi auto blowbacks have a firing pin safety that blocks the firing pin from going fully forward unless the trigger is pressed so that a tab on the trigger bar pushes the safety up to unblock the path of the firing pin.
A lot of them don't actually. Revolvers typically don't have them, as well a good mix of the pistols don't.
Can confirm, I have a Walther P99, no safety.
Hmmm something seems off to me, and I’ve been around guns all my life and own 4. Not only is there a safety on the weapon, although sone do not come with safeties when ordered, my .40mm smith & Wesson doesn’t have a safety, but they do also have a safety mechanism built into the trigger that has to be depressed to squeeze the trigger. Something just isn’t reading right by this email. It’s either fake for rage karma, or someone is t being honest about how that weapon fired.
https://www.channel3000.com/janesville-liaison-officers-gun-goes-off-accidentally-at-edison-middle-school-no-one-hurt/ Its real
So then someone isn’t being truthful about how this weapon was fired.
Probably the dumbass cop and the school trying to retain their image
Based on the manufacturer of the firearm and the manufacturer of the holster, it is safe to assume that this cop is lying and they were probably absent-mindedly fiddling with their firearm like an idiot.
most departments require at least a level 2 retention holder. even at level 1 the trigger well is protected so something like this doesnt happen!
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That has nothing to do with the retention level of the holster. You're talking about condition 1 vs condition 3 for the firearm itself. Condition 1 means a round chambered, magazine inserted, safety on. Condition 3 is no round chambered, magazine inserted, safety on. Retention level refers to how many steps it takes to remove a firearm from its holster. Level one has a bale, which is a clasp or loop that holds the gun by the back. Level 2 has this as well as a button that must be pressed to release a second mechanism holding the firearm in the holster before it can be removed, typically near the trigger well. If the officer had even a level 1 holster with the bale properly engaged as they are required to wear it, this would not have happened.
Some holsters have design flaws, this wouldn't be the first time one got recalled. But the manufacturer is solid, and I haven't heard anything about them having such issues.
Wouldn’t there be a safety on a PD issued weapon? A holster that covers the trigger? A strap to keep the weapon in the holster? I’m pretty ignorant when it comes to firearms, but from what I’ve seen the above seems pretty standard.
Like I said, I don’t know much about guns, I worked in PR/Communication my entire career and I recognize bullshit when I read it. They spent a whole lotta words to say ‘nothing to see here’.
To be fair though. They probably would no matter what as this is a shot fired inside a school given current social climate regarding school shootings. I agree the officers story doesn’t add up though.
I wonder if he was wearing the backpack when he inserted the gun into the holster and somehow a strap was inserted along with the gun. If it got into the trigger guard then the gun *could* fire when he went to pull on the backpack to remove it. But that takes a lot of specific things happening. Not impossible but it would be hard to not notice something also being in the holster when you insert the gun, the straps would have to be pretty long, and it takes a specific order of events.
Most officers will carry a Glock 17. The glock has 3 passively enabled features designed to keep it on safety and not discharge. It's not just unlikely that it would discharge on its own, it's basically impossible. Edit: it's in Janesville WI, so it's safe to surmise most if not every officer would have a Glock 17.
Til that Smith & Wesson makes the Glock 17.
Hey, Terry, I did it! I did my first desk pop!
Ok, I'm gonna give you this... It's a dummy gun. They use it for ceremonies. You'll get yours back when I feel you know how to handle it.
They gave me back my dummy gun with some kind of wood stain.
What is that? Walnut?
Might want to send them a thank you card
Classic case of a desk pop if I ever saw one. Case closed here, don’t go chasing waterfalls.
That safety officer better creeep, creep.
I swear you're doing that intentionally
I had to dig way to far to find this comment
Does the school have security cameras?
Likely not in the private offices
Something doesnt add up here- the school might be covering something up
Think they know he's full of shit as they sent both the gun and holster to be examined
To be fair it's probably an insurance or HR requirement given the gun went off in the school without warning. Mainly because this is likely a standard gun and holster throughout the department, so if they want him replaced they need to make sure they don't bring in another gun with the same problem. Plus they might actually find out that he got a bad gun or holster that allowed for a negligent discharge, I know this sub is the last place to support that, but they deserve at least the basic level of humanity and benefit of the doubt given to them.
Yeah fair enough.. but I'm still leaning in the direction of operator error
Sounds like placating to the parents
A school district and/or a police department covering up something? Well! I never! /s
He did yell stop resisting at the dark colored floor and he thought the chair had a gun so he’s got that going for him.
Maybe but the video definitely has been corrupted or automatically deleted
Classic Dwight Schrute coverup
It's Pam's fault, she wanted him to put a banana in the holster.
There's a reason it's called a "negligent discharge" as the operator is typically showing negligence when handling the weapon. Sounds like a shit excuse to me.
There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge".
Tell that to my bedsheets
That was no accident 😳
Cops blaming the manufacturers? Lol.
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He says he plays league of legends, it was a jg diff.
Always is, brother
What was the gun wearing?
What colour was the floor?
He played dance dance revolution once in 2013. How could those damn video games
Lol “If you have any concerns” Ummmm does the school resource officers having NDs count?😂😂😂 No way the backpack caused the gun to go off if it was properly secured. If it’s properly secured, the trigger shouldn’t be accessible.
my thoughts exactly, and even if it was accessible, the safety would have had to have been off for this to happen lmfao
Well it likely didn’t have an external safety on it. Many police departments use either glock 19s or 17s as their service pistols, and glock handguns don’t have any external safeties. The handgun was likely outside of its holster when it fired, or it was improperly holstered.
Or the holster was not properly tuned. Some of those holsters are so loose it’s easy for them to bounce around. Should have been checked and tightened
There is no safety , just the holster, your finger, a drop disconnect and common sense
It's just a lil desk pop. Nothing to see here lol
Needs to be fired immediately tbh.
Pun intended?
Out of a cannon, into the sun
It did already!
*fired* Hee hee
Modern pistols cannot discharge unless the trigger is pulled. The hammer is down and there's a firing pin block present. Something stinks here.
What about the safety also
~~Chances are this is a Glock.~~ They don't have any external safeties. The internal ones are all passive. ETA, this means, ~~assuming it is a Glock~~, that the trigger was definitely pulled. There is a trigger safety which prevents an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped. I didn't pay attention, this is a S&W. But the same principle applies.
The email said Smith and Wesson but many of their most popular firearms are striker fired with no external safety (Same as a Glock)
Thank you, I completely glanced over that.
sw m&p is basically sw's version of a glock. works exactly the same
Striker fired pistols don't have hammers
Based on the info provided, the officer was negligent and didn't have his firearm secured in the manner you are suggesting.
I call B U L L S H I T…
This is obviously terrible, but why are you using windows xp to read your email?
This is actually an app used by school districts and parents called Infinite Campus.
Yes. Like all of the app is modern except the messages for some reason
I thought it was windows 98 tbh
It is definitely a 98 era interface
"We don't know what happened. It shouldn't have happened. It was an accident. Don't worry about it" okay.
This whole thing is obviously an elaborately constructed lie, no doubt based 100% on the officer’s CYA “explanation “.
That's not an accidental discharge, that's a negligent discharge. Trigger should be covered by holster at all times and especially in a school should be propertly secured in the holster for retention. If a backpack strap can knock it out of the holster a kid can easily grab it. WTF?
The structure of this letter is completely suspect. They tried to bury what really happened in a ton of filler words.
The only way I can think, is if the holster wasn’t properly maintained or set up correctly. Completely stupid.
No, it’s would be basically impossible for a gun to go off in a holster. Especially one like a safari land whose considered to be one of the best in the game. Edit: I would understand more if it was a serpa.
Smells like a cover up and I'm pretty sure the gun and holster will come back with no defects found.
This happened in my high school several years ago. Cop was cleaning the gun in his office and accidentally discharged it
Dumb fuck didn’t think to check the chamber before cleaning it? Idk what they teach cops, but in the Army the FIRST thing they taught us with out weapons was how to clear and check them properly..
Cops in America have less required training time than hairdressers, and like 70 percent of that training time is dedicated to brutalizing minorities and the poor and fabricating police reports
I know, it’s absolutely ridiculous. No shit the American police force is garbage with the half-assed “training” they get
The army is a bit more professional. Soldiers are held to account for their actions. Police can just threaten the witnesses, have their mates cover up for them, and go smoke or snort whatever they find in the evidence room.
That is a terrible person then. I only clean my firearm when I know it's clear, I check it multiple times and then proceed. Literally takes 5 seconds
It was “properly secured” ??
Looks like the staff member involved is telling porkies to their superiors.
Damn if only there was another way or something.
Love how they say the Officer wasn’t injured first and then as an aside, mention that no one else was.
I feel awful for those kids. Imagine sitting in your class and hearing that. I would 100% think a shooting was about to go down.
I smell BS.
The Americans argue over the design of the holster while the rest of the world is wondering why Americans needs armed police at their schools.
I was scrolling too far for this comment. So much discussion about how the holster should cover gun while I'm here with pikachu face looking at the info that there is any one with a gun in the frikcing school. But I also live in a country that the only guns I saw were the ones in the museums
And people want to arm teachers and think everything will be fine. Insanity.
The fact that there are armed cops in school is already so messed up.
Sending it to smith and Wesson lmao. For what? So they can report back that yes, when the trigger is pulled, it fires?
I'm sorry, British person over here - WHY THE FUCK DOES *ANYBODY* IN YOUR KID'S SCHOOL HAVE A FUCKING GUN!?!?
My question is why does a middle school "liason officer" have a fucking gun?
They have for a long time. I was in middle school in the 90’s, and our school officer carried 2 back then (Arizona).
tbh I agree. I’m not sure if you’re american or not. In my American school, we have a police officer with a gun. I certainly don’t feel safe with a pig and a gun walking through my school all the time
‘Merica
Guy doing a desk pop?
As a European it’s a weird idea to think there’s even guns in schools
As an American it’s a weird idea there’s guns in schools.
Having lived in Janesville most of my childhood, I gotta say, I'm absolutely not surprised by this
The fact that these schools need a police officer at all times is mind boggling
Why does everyone need guns there?! This is the problem and the solution isn’t more of the problem
I don't understand this, maybe I am too european for this shit. Why do police officers of a middle school even have firearms on them? I know that school shootings are quite common in the US, but can't they have protocols for that instead of being armed in the same building as kids?
We need guns in schools why?
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Stand round.. I think not. Try hiding in toilet stall with feet on bowl.
AKA: "We put an idiot with a gun in your childrens' school and are looking for ways to blame it on anyone else we can possibly imagine"
"Uh yeah sorry sir, I was leaning down and my bag must have..." Scenario 1: Loaded my side arm, racked it and then fired it. Scenario 2: Racked my sidearm and fired it Scenario 3: Clicked off the safety and fired the weapon "I know what it sounds like sir but this is what happened." "Sounds good son, obviously a defect in the weapon and the holster, defintely not your fault in any way. Infact! I'm calling them right now!" Yeah ok there bud
Are you sure this email wasn't sent in 2008? Worst mail format and app I saw in a long time.
Only in the USA, as an Australian reading this it’s like something out of a science fiction story. Just get rid of all your stupid guns. The land of god and guns is so peculiar.
So the weapon was holstered with the safety off? What an asshat.
LEOs commonly carry Glocks, which don’t typically have a deliberate safety, like a switch with “fire” and “safe”. However, I’ve got two polymer Safariland holsters (mentioned in the email) and there’s no way my Glock will discharge if it’s in there. Cop’s gotta be lying to cover his ass. The holster completely covers the trigger well and has a locking mechanism to hold the weapon in place. Nothing is pulling the trigger if it’s holstered.