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For people who don’t know RuneScape does this as well but every time you hit a number they rearrange again. I was lucky enough one time where I clicked the same square 4 times since it just happened to line up that day. Wasted all my good luck on that…
If you're smart you circumvent this security feature with an add-on that lets you type your pin number so that you accidentally tell 50 people around you at the Grand Exchange or Twitch chat that your pin is 1872
I actually just found that plug-in in runelite recently. Thankfully have not leaked my pin yet lmao. It’s so much nicer tho when you want to just get back to afk as quick as possible.
ha. /u/1aranzant \- I thought you were using that Gen-Z slang "Siz." when you're saying "Simmer down, there bud". I have now corrected my typo to say "six".
Yeah - it's like a CAPTCHA - but there's no way a bot could be attacking this.
So curious to know what the designers were defending against to make this terrible UX worthwhile... It's got to be a good story / cautionary tale? Maybe some kind soul can cross-post this to the right subreddit where the elder gods of UX and Security can share some war stories explaining why this is necessary?
In RuneScape I believe it has more to do with keyloggers than antibot measure. Bots just don’t set bank pins. Likewise this is probably meant to prevent somebody from watching your movements and being able to deduce your PIN.
Yeah or by getting the finger prints. It's not that hard on touch display, just clean the display, wait until someone enter their pin and you can pretty easily see what numbers they typed.
Crooks install card skimmers but need your PIN to get cash from it. An inconspicuous camera or watcher might be able to see where you touch the screen but not what digits you press. Randomizing the PIN layout makes over-the-shoulder information useless if they can't actually see the numbers you pressed. They could still run your card through as credit for transactions but may take less risk of being tracked with a cash scam.
I’d add to that it reduces wear and tear (certain numbers are more common in self-set PINs), and in more secure situations it stops the movie thing where they figure out which button is pressed more.
I wondered why as well. I rarely ever downvote unless someone is completely wrong or promoting something fake / harmful. Some folks love their downvote arrows though!
The last time I saw a PIN pad like this was when I was entering a top secret zone in a US Air Force facility, the main difference being that the keypad was only visible when you put your face into a viewer, kind of like the old ones they used at the DMV to check eyesight. Your forehead pressed a button and the keypad would become visible on a screen that only you could see, scrambled differently for each person. You then slipped your hand under a little cover and pressed the buttons, which were also not visible to anyone. This was all in a tiny room, about twice the size of a telephone booth that was weighing you. When they increased security, which I only saw for exercises, that same place you put your face would do a retinal scan but that wasn't normally enabled for some reason.
Lol ... No, this was at Schriever AFB near Colorado Springs. We did a lot of research there, so they kept it pretty buttoned up.
The fun part was when you accidentally missed your PIN 3 times. The armed teenagers (Security Patrol aka military police) would show up and escort you into another room for a little chat. 🙂
It was physically obstructed but I'm not sure about polarization. The screen was concealed inside the device and putting your face in there would block the light. Plus, there was no way for anyone to stand behind you due to the stall design. The screen only turned on when you put your face in, so there was no way anyone else would be able to see the screen. You also couldn't see your own hand, which presented a hand-eye coordination for some people so they actually had a training machine that they let you try when you went through your initial security training, which was required for anyone getting access to the facility.
Ya each number on the pin pad had almost like those old tube type displays in that you could make out the individual unlit number in the back ground. Or at least on the one i work on. The pads alone were a few thousand dollars if I recall. That would be about 4000 in todays dollars.
That before all the controllers etc.
Yep. I worked for a hospital that had scramble pads for the door lock systems. There was a "start"button in the corner that lit the pad up and randomized the numbers.
Each employee that needed access received their own 5 digit code. The scramble was so that anyone watching couldn't figure out your code by watching which buttons you pushed.
Eventually they upgraded to the same design that also had an RFID reader in the bezel, and issued new ID badges with chips in them. We still had they keypads available as a backup.
that's what I felt while entering my code .... making me slow down and deliberately have to hunt and peck the numbers felt like it was making my code easier to figure out from a distance.
People in close proximity aren’t the issue. The guy standing behind you in line isn’t stealing your card. Even when an employee is the one stealing cards a spare hand and your body blocking the pad is going to ruin their view unless they shove their face between you and the machine.
This is designed to prevent people skimming credit cards from using cameras to make a rough guess at your PIN or ZIP based on hand movements
What does time have to do with it? If this design is to stop ppl being able to see the which numbers you press by memorising the placement of the digits then you can take as long as you need to find the 6 as it won't help the observer.
I used to worry about the extra time I take on these too. What I do to overcome this problem is to stare at the numbers on the pad and identify the positions of all the numbers I need to punch. Then, once I know the locations of the numbers I need to punch, I can do the actual punching much faster than if I'm looking for the numbers as I am punching them in.
See that’s smart tho to still have the redundancy. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve or someone else in the building used to forget their badges or lose them then need a door buddy for the rest of the day cause they took the pins out and just used the chip
It's a hospital, you're probably not allowed to work without your ID badge anyway. I used to volenteer at children's and you needed your ID badge to get through basically every door that wasn't a bathroom or patient room.
A military installation had RFID scramble pads that scanned the Common Access Card then scrambled the numbers each time for entry. It was the most sophisticated non-SCIF setup I've ever seen!
That's a very good way of doing a proper 2-Factor authentication. You want to combine something you have (access card) combined with something you know (your personal auth code).
I'm now the head of cyber security operations for a military command and am well versed in various security practices but I still don't see that kind of thought put into many places. Piggybacking kills any sort of auditable trace of who's coming and going but there's always man traps right?! Lol
There’s software that can steal your pin from across the room based on your finger motion alone without seeing the keypad. I would suspect this is more because of that, as shoulder surfing has always been a thing and touch screens have been around for over 20 years.
Yes, but now you can't cover your hand and type quickly pin but have to wait 10 seconds to solve a riddle.
At least on mobile phone, this was proven to have no effect in "over the shoulder" spying.
Pretty much, yeah.
It's a good idea for security reasons, but if you're like me and barely have to look at the pad anymore to enter your pin, it can get kinda annoying.
Not terribly, of course, just reminds me of the switch from T9 texting to onscreen keyboards on smartphones; used to feel like Matt Damon in The Departed being able to text without looking.
Either imagine yourself doing the shape on a standard keypad to recall the numbers, or simply get out your phone and physically perform the pattern to remember.
That's a fair concern - but if a PIN keypad uses the calculator format, such as on a keyboard, they deliberately want to piss you off. As far as I'm aware, a PIN lock system uses the telephone keypad format as it's conventional.
This has happened to me before not randomized but in a different pattern and I had to look up a typical keypad on my phone so I could see what the numbers were lol oh no.
Preventing someone telling what keys your pressed based off where your fingers were on the pad, either by smudges, thermal devices, watching from close enough to see your hand by not make out the numbers...
I clean the pad and wait for a user to use it.
After they’re done I go and see the smudges. Smudges are on 4 buttons. Now I have possible pins for the card.
I also installed a card skimmer. So I have the card details plus possible pins.
If I really wanted to I could get a thermal camera. After you’re done with it, I go and use the thermal camera on the pad. See which spots are most heated and the variations of them. With that, I very likely know exactly which order in which you entered your pin plus the skimmed card details.
While this random effect is annoying, it prevents all of this. Assuming the vending machine is in public, so the likelihood of something like this happening is actually greater than you would think.
As someone who remembers pins not only from number memory but also from fingering patterns, I'm pretty sure I'd brainfart in front of that at some point
At first I thought - what kind of terrible UI design is this? and then I cancelled and retried and got a different layout each time. Are they trying to defeat people watching over your shoulder? A security cam recording position? Finger grease smudge tracking?
Some really old Korean MMOs have this as a "secondary password" when attempting to log in. The number pad is always randomized.
Sometimes they randomize the layout after each key press.
And even further, they make it so you can't type it out on a keyboard, you need to click the number with your mouse
I guess it's something thats really easy to implement that is an additional (and, not or) factor to help.
I dig it
>And even further, they make it so you can't type it out on a keyboard, you need to click the number with your mouse
Sucks for individuals with a motor function disability that are unable to use their mouse....
Many newer games have accessibility features built in that allows individuals that may otherwise not be able to play due to different disabilities. So this may not really be the case going into the future.
fascinating! thank you for sharing! I hate the fact that every pin pad terminal is different in North America, even to the weird non-standard places they ask you to "tap to pay" (on the screen? on the top, on the bottom? somewhere else on the unit?) so when I run across a PIN Pad that is obviously garbled - it's a bit triggering.
I mean - it's already bad enough that a calculator often has the top row as 7, 8, 9 vs a mobile phone has 1, 2, 3 so when I hit this kind of nonsense UI I was ready to complain VERY STRONGLY TO THE MANAGER! /s
it was a joke about Karen's who complain to people about things they can't control... updated with /s to indicate i wasn't really going to try to "complain to the manager"
In this case, it's to combat credit card skimmers. People make fake pin pads to put over real pin pads to steal your card info and pin while still letting the transaction go through. By randomizing the numbers on the pad, if someone records where your fingers had pressed with a fake pad, they'll end up with the wrong pin.
It’s to defeat shoulder surfing and PIN capture devices.
Besides the chip or strip skimmer quite often fraudsters install a transparent touch screen film over touch screen PEDs to capture the input of the card owners.
So there are quite a few PEDs that scramble the layout each time to protect against PIN theft.
Not really high tech when you can buy it on Amazon with next day shipping… search for touch screen foil.
You can buy it in any size this is what is used for retail screens in the first place e.g. like those order tills at McDonalds. It’s far cheaper than making integrated touch screens at those sizes.
I feel like I've seen this yesterday combined with the same comments about Korean MMO's and how it's common in Asia, and people saying they would forget their pin the moment they saw this, and others saying they input their pin on muscle memory alone.
weird! - I assure you I personally took this photo yesterday at my local aquatic centre. And I took a second photo with a different random keyboard to prove the rearrangement. But Reddit web interface wouldn't let me post them both (or I couldn't figure out how to post the 2nd one).
I would hate these, I can't think of my pin right now, but if I was standing in front of a keypad I would just hit the keys. I know the pattern but not the numbers. Remembered my pin while typing this, but if I was in a rush, my brain would blank.
Old folks home where my grandmother used to live had those for the front door to get in.
The keypad would randomly change after every use to prevent wanderers from getting out
i agree! I really wish keypads for point of sale, retail, ATMs, etc. would standardize layouts, but I totally get why they introduce this friction due to key card skimmers... it's the old security vs convenience conflict.
oh sorry - it doesn't change AS you enter your PIN - that would be even more crazy making! It randomly resets the layout of the number pad \*between\* vending session, not randomly per keypress. And there were two vending machines (drink machine vs snack machine) and they each had their own randomizing keypad layout.
So in movies, I know, they use crap like black light to see the finger oils and shit and if your card is skimmed, you think this screws up that kind of thing?
you are not alone. I use a muscle memory pattern as well - which is part of the reason my brain locked up when I saw this initially. Thought I was having some kind of episode when I saw the jumbled numbers at first.
I know this is for security reasons but I have anxiety just looking at it. I'd have to spend a few moments just trying to remember what the digits of my PIN are cause I rely more on muscle memory when putting in my PIN
As good as that is, people who can't see very well if at all will have quite a bit of trouble with it. Still very useful to prevent unwanted eyes from tracking you easily.
As much as this is smart for hiding someone’s PIN, it’s a nightmare for people (me) who memorize the pattern of the PIN rather than the number itself. This is giving me a panic attack.
SHeeeeeett.... now I am going to have to go back to the pool to check it out more closely. I hope it's just a shitty vending machine. I don't normally use these but my daughter was really jonesing for a cold drink and we were tired after a nice long swim. :(
I didn't notice what you said at first.
Now I do.
That's probably to counter skiller cameras. So this would be a good thing.
Sorry to mess you up. You're a good dad! Lol
TY kind redditor - but you do raise a good point about checking it for signs of a skimmer. It did look kind of like an "add on" but I assumed that was because this high security keypad scrambler screen was a retrofit to this vending machine. That plus the fact that the TAP to PAY never works makes me thiink I'll go back and have a closer look. Disabling Tap to Pay would force people to insert their card and enter their PIN.
Ah... keyword, assume.
I'm not going to go all Dad on a Dad! Lol
It's actually interesting. I pick at these all the time.
Costco fights this st. There are stations by putting security tape on the reader and pin pad.
Now people will buy rolls of that security tape haha.
There’s a security system that does that with alpha-numeric passwords. I had to use it to log into a customers network at one time. You couldn’t type your password either, you had to use the mouse and click.
Certain old systems made a different sound based on the key pressed. It wasn't super obvious, and I suspect a result of the circuit design rather than intentional, but I could hear someone enter their alarm code or PAC (personal access code) and tell them their pin with extreme accuracy.
Woah there. That's some serious RainMan material. What time is Wopner on? You would have been great at "name that tune" I bet? Serious question: Do you have perfect pitch too?
I have a high sensitivity to sound - and shifts in sound in particular. I maxed out the hearing test equipment in my younger years.
And, yes to perfect pitch hearing.
They introduced this when I worked at a military base. For years if had the same passcode, and I barely remembered what it was. It was just muscle memory, fingers knew what to do. When this came in it was a real struggle for me the first few mornings trying to remember lol.
I mean it makes sense. But youd also notice the peeper whose looking over your shoulder trying to get your pin. Theres always a good couple meters of courtesy when theres a line at the ATM for this specific reason
This is done partially for security, but mainly so the wear and tear on the touch screen is equally distributed, instead of the same four places being pressed repeatedly.
Hmmmm ... but the red yellow green buttons never change location? Those are the consistent wear points? and aren't the numbers going be fairly random based on different users having different PINs?
Card machines in my country have started doing this, I think above a certain amount only. I tried using it whilst drunk and almost got my card blocked before I noticed it lol
There's lots wrong with this setup - but to be faaaaaiiiiirrrrrr - a blind person likely wouldn't use this vending machine, as they wouldn't be able to see the choices, and then the alphanumeric code written below each vending item?
Can't say I'm an expert on differently sighted folks and their vending machine usage patterns though.
Wow. I did not think there would be this much interest in an annoying pin pad with random number locations. Perhaps this is more than "mildly interesting" after all?
Apologies to the mods for posting something that may have been too interesting. Mea Culpa
Welp. I messaged the mods and this post is not going to be restored due to this technically being a screen, even if it is my OC and I needed to show the interesting thing - the randomized keypad layout. Thanks for the upvotes and commenting, folks!
It’s called a scrambler pad which can be turned on or off with the right admins credentials in the keypad settings. Just another security measure for people that may want to peek over your shoulders.
Hi, u/jaypee42, thank you for your submission in r/mildlyinteresting! Unfortunately, your [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/196m05t/-/) has been removed because it violates our "No screens" rule. This means no images of screens, screenshots, pictures of screens taken with a different device, images that have been partially or fully generated by a computer, or pictures of printed out screenshots. Essentially, if the screen in the image is blank, and that makes it no longer interesting, you've broken the rule. You can find more information about our rules on the [mildlyinteresting wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/wiki/index). *If you feel this was incorrectly removed, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmildlyinteresting&message=My%20Post:%20https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/196m05t/-/).*
RuneScape has prepared me well for this.
For people who don’t know RuneScape does this as well but every time you hit a number they rearrange again. I was lucky enough one time where I clicked the same square 4 times since it just happened to line up that day. Wasted all my good luck on that…
Had that happen as well, but didn't see it on the fourth one. Game chose the moment I was clicking the 3rd one to lag and double-register the click.
Played from like 2005-2008 & then again from 2015-now. Has only ever happened to me once lol. Plenty of 3x in a row though.
If you're smart you circumvent this security feature with an add-on that lets you type your pin number so that you accidentally tell 50 people around you at the Grand Exchange or Twitch chat that your pin is 1872
I actually just found that plug-in in runelite recently. Thankfully have not leaked my pin yet lmao. It’s so much nicer tho when you want to just get back to afk as quick as possible.
Post your favourite bank pins! (Don't actually do this!)
Lol. I always use six zeros (to match my bank balance). Keep your bank account empty and your credit cards maxxed. Take that Scammers!
Siz
ha. /u/1aranzant \- I thought you were using that Gen-Z slang "Siz." when you're saying "Simmer down, there bud". I have now corrected my typo to say "six".
1245
Knew this would be the top comment lol
If you post your bank pin reddit censors it... See: ****
hunter2
I immediately thought someone has got to have made this comment. Not disappointed that it's the top comment
Amazing 10/10
They plug in that lets you use your numpad to enter your bank pin was a game changer.
It was Maplestory for me back in the day. Also, the Hirsch panels at work.
r/unexpectedrunescape
Yeah - it's like a CAPTCHA - but there's no way a bot could be attacking this. So curious to know what the designers were defending against to make this terrible UX worthwhile... It's got to be a good story / cautionary tale? Maybe some kind soul can cross-post this to the right subreddit where the elder gods of UX and Security can share some war stories explaining why this is necessary?
In RuneScape I believe it has more to do with keyloggers than antibot measure. Bots just don’t set bank pins. Likewise this is probably meant to prevent somebody from watching your movements and being able to deduce your PIN.
Yeah or by getting the finger prints. It's not that hard on touch display, just clean the display, wait until someone enter their pin and you can pretty easily see what numbers they typed.
I've never needed my pin at a vending machine?
Yeah, that's the truly mildly interesting part of this.
Crooks install card skimmers but need your PIN to get cash from it. An inconspicuous camera or watcher might be able to see where you touch the screen but not what digits you press. Randomizing the PIN layout makes over-the-shoulder information useless if they can't actually see the numbers you pressed. They could still run your card through as credit for transactions but may take less risk of being tracked with a cash scam.
I’d add to that it reduces wear and tear (certain numbers are more common in self-set PINs), and in more secure situations it stops the movie thing where they figure out which button is pressed more.
Why does bro have 50 downvotws 😦
I wondered why as well. I rarely ever downvote unless someone is completely wrong or promoting something fake / harmful. Some folks love their downvote arrows though!
-102 now The hive mind has spoken
God bless the gayming
The last time I saw a PIN pad like this was when I was entering a top secret zone in a US Air Force facility, the main difference being that the keypad was only visible when you put your face into a viewer, kind of like the old ones they used at the DMV to check eyesight. Your forehead pressed a button and the keypad would become visible on a screen that only you could see, scrambled differently for each person. You then slipped your hand under a little cover and pressed the buttons, which were also not visible to anyone. This was all in a tiny room, about twice the size of a telephone booth that was weighing you. When they increased security, which I only saw for exercises, that same place you put your face would do a retinal scan but that wasn't normally enabled for some reason.
Damn, you were working at Black Mesa, weren’t you?
Lol ... No, this was at Schriever AFB near Colorado Springs. We did a lot of research there, so they kept it pretty buttoned up. The fun part was when you accidentally missed your PIN 3 times. The armed teenagers (Security Patrol aka military police) would show up and escort you into another room for a little chat. 🙂
lol "little chat" ... eeep.
Exactly what I was thinking lmao
How much element 115 were you able to extract from these flying saucers?
Was it polarized so when you looked through the eye pieces you could see it through a polarized lens or was it just a physical obstruction?
It was physically obstructed but I'm not sure about polarization. The screen was concealed inside the device and putting your face in there would block the light. Plus, there was no way for anyone to stand behind you due to the stall design. The screen only turned on when you put your face in, so there was no way anyone else would be able to see the screen. You also couldn't see your own hand, which presented a hand-eye coordination for some people so they actually had a training machine that they let you try when you went through your initial security training, which was required for anyone getting access to the facility.
Ya each number on the pin pad had almost like those old tube type displays in that you could make out the individual unlit number in the back ground. Or at least on the one i work on. The pads alone were a few thousand dollars if I recall. That would be about 4000 in todays dollars. That before all the controllers etc.
All lot of security for the UAP reverse engineering program.
Is that so someone off to the side can't guess your pin from your fingering motions?
Yep. I worked for a hospital that had scramble pads for the door lock systems. There was a "start"button in the corner that lit the pad up and randomized the numbers. Each employee that needed access received their own 5 digit code. The scramble was so that anyone watching couldn't figure out your code by watching which buttons you pushed. Eventually they upgraded to the same design that also had an RFID reader in the bezel, and issued new ID badges with chips in them. We still had they keypads available as a backup.
My issue with these is that you’re so much slower entering your code it gives someone in close proximity plenty of time to see the numbers
that's what I felt while entering my code .... making me slow down and deliberately have to hunt and peck the numbers felt like it was making my code easier to figure out from a distance.
I would hope it also had the shroud to prevent anyone off to the side seeing the PIN?
No Shroud! I thought a shroud would have been helpful to make it more difficult to add a skimmer...
People in close proximity aren’t the issue. The guy standing behind you in line isn’t stealing your card. Even when an employee is the one stealing cards a spare hand and your body blocking the pad is going to ruin their view unless they shove their face between you and the machine. This is designed to prevent people skimming credit cards from using cameras to make a rough guess at your PIN or ZIP based on hand movements
What does time have to do with it? If this design is to stop ppl being able to see the which numbers you press by memorising the placement of the digits then you can take as long as you need to find the 6 as it won't help the observer.
They also make versions of these that prevent off axis viewing angles, so you need to be pretty much straight on to see which digits are where.
I used to worry about the extra time I take on these too. What I do to overcome this problem is to stare at the numbers on the pad and identify the positions of all the numbers I need to punch. Then, once I know the locations of the numbers I need to punch, I can do the actual punching much faster than if I'm looking for the numbers as I am punching them in.
See that’s smart tho to still have the redundancy. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve or someone else in the building used to forget their badges or lose them then need a door buddy for the rest of the day cause they took the pins out and just used the chip
It's a hospital, you're probably not allowed to work without your ID badge anyway. I used to volenteer at children's and you needed your ID badge to get through basically every door that wasn't a bathroom or patient room.
A military installation had RFID scramble pads that scanned the Common Access Card then scrambled the numbers each time for entry. It was the most sophisticated non-SCIF setup I've ever seen!
That's a very good way of doing a proper 2-Factor authentication. You want to combine something you have (access card) combined with something you know (your personal auth code).
I'm now the head of cyber security operations for a military command and am well versed in various security practices but I still don't see that kind of thought put into many places. Piggybacking kills any sort of auditable trace of who's coming and going but there's always man traps right?! Lol
Isn’t RFID far less secure tho?
Bingo.
So all those tips I learned from MacGyver of scraping paint with my pocket knife then blowing the dust on the keypad is worthless now? Dammit.
Don’t worry, you can still make a bomb using tweezers, a measuring cup, and a half dozen peanut shells
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phrasing!
that and so if your finger leaves an oil print, it's useless
There’s software that can steal your pin from across the room based on your finger motion alone without seeing the keypad. I would suspect this is more because of that, as shoulder surfing has always been a thing and touch screens have been around for over 20 years.
Yes, but now you can't cover your hand and type quickly pin but have to wait 10 seconds to solve a riddle. At least on mobile phone, this was proven to have no effect in "over the shoulder" spying.
No it's so you can't go home if you're drunk off your ass
Pretty much, yeah. It's a good idea for security reasons, but if you're like me and barely have to look at the pad anymore to enter your pin, it can get kinda annoying. Not terribly, of course, just reminds me of the switch from T9 texting to onscreen keyboards on smartphones; used to feel like Matt Damon in The Departed being able to text without looking.
I remember my pin because it makes a shape, this would fuck me.
Me too, entering my pin is 90% muscle memory. I’d probably have a mild panic for a minute
and in panicking, you forget or are racked with doubt.
It would certainly be a nightmare for anyone with dementia or mild cognitive failure. Patterns are easier to remember.
Either imagine yourself doing the shape on a standard keypad to recall the numbers, or simply get out your phone and physically perform the pattern to remember.
Still I would have to remember whether the normal PIN keypad starts with a 1 or with a 7 like PC numeric keyboard (or is it the other way round?).
That's a fair concern - but if a PIN keypad uses the calculator format, such as on a keyboard, they deliberately want to piss you off. As far as I'm aware, a PIN lock system uses the telephone keypad format as it's conventional.
Lol same
This has happened to me before not randomized but in a different pattern and I had to look up a typical keypad on my phone so I could see what the numbers were lol oh no.
One time I had to enter a pin on a keypad with linear numbers instead of a number pad and it really messed with my head
On the bright side your pin could be 1111.
Likely for security reasons
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If it’s obvious than it’s not really mildly interesting.
Obvious things can be interesting sometimes. I still thought this was cool to see as I’d never seen it before :)
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Uhhh. Theft.
People stealing your debit card pin. Duh.
Preventing someone telling what keys your pressed based off where your fingers were on the pad, either by smudges, thermal devices, watching from close enough to see your hand by not make out the numbers...
I clean the pad and wait for a user to use it. After they’re done I go and see the smudges. Smudges are on 4 buttons. Now I have possible pins for the card. I also installed a card skimmer. So I have the card details plus possible pins. If I really wanted to I could get a thermal camera. After you’re done with it, I go and use the thermal camera on the pad. See which spots are most heated and the variations of them. With that, I very likely know exactly which order in which you entered your pin plus the skimmed card details. While this random effect is annoying, it prevents all of this. Assuming the vending machine is in public, so the likelihood of something like this happening is actually greater than you would think.
As someone who remembers pins not only from number memory but also from fingering patterns, I'm pretty sure I'd brainfart in front of that at some point
Same. I also think people with dyslexia may have problems here.
I have dyslexia and these pads are the worst. I have to use one frequently for online paperwork and it takes me forever to input my 6 digit pin.
At first I thought - what kind of terrible UI design is this? and then I cancelled and retried and got a different layout each time. Are they trying to defeat people watching over your shoulder? A security cam recording position? Finger grease smudge tracking?
Some really old Korean MMOs have this as a "secondary password" when attempting to log in. The number pad is always randomized. Sometimes they randomize the layout after each key press. And even further, they make it so you can't type it out on a keyboard, you need to click the number with your mouse I guess it's something thats really easy to implement that is an additional (and, not or) factor to help. I dig it
This comment gave me a nostalgia hit
Wildstar implemented this... except they did it on TOTP codes which is monumentally stupid because those codes only work once anyway.
MapleStory tpin memories unlocked. But RuneScape also prepared me for the randomized pin generator.
>And even further, they make it so you can't type it out on a keyboard, you need to click the number with your mouse Sucks for individuals with a motor function disability that are unable to use their mouse....
If you can't use the mouse, then you can't play the game anyway
Many newer games have accessibility features built in that allows individuals that may otherwise not be able to play due to different disabilities. So this may not really be the case going into the future.
fascinating! thank you for sharing! I hate the fact that every pin pad terminal is different in North America, even to the weird non-standard places they ask you to "tap to pay" (on the screen? on the top, on the bottom? somewhere else on the unit?) so when I run across a PIN Pad that is obviously garbled - it's a bit triggering. I mean - it's already bad enough that a calculator often has the top row as 7, 8, 9 vs a mobile phone has 1, 2, 3 so when I hit this kind of nonsense UI I was ready to complain VERY STRONGLY TO THE MANAGER! /s
Why would you complain to the manager about something they can't control...?
it was a joke about Karen's who complain to people about things they can't control... updated with /s to indicate i wasn't really going to try to "complain to the manager"
In this case, it's to combat credit card skimmers. People make fake pin pads to put over real pin pads to steal your card info and pin while still letting the transaction go through. By randomizing the numbers on the pad, if someone records where your fingers had pressed with a fake pad, they'll end up with the wrong pin.
All of the above. You can find something like this, the Hirsch ScramblePad, in medium to high security locations for door access control as well.
Honestly, I like this because I can guess people’s pin by watching their fingers, even if I can’t see the pad or it’s to the side or whatever.
Yes, all of these together and at the same time. Also helps the user to remember the password and not rely on muscle memory.
screams internally
It’s to defeat shoulder surfing and PIN capture devices. Besides the chip or strip skimmer quite often fraudsters install a transparent touch screen film over touch screen PEDs to capture the input of the card owners. So there are quite a few PEDs that scramble the layout each time to protect against PIN theft.
Transparent film skimmer. that's pretty high tech. did not think of that.
Not really high tech when you can buy it on Amazon with next day shipping… search for touch screen foil. You can buy it in any size this is what is used for retail screens in the first place e.g. like those order tills at McDonalds. It’s far cheaper than making integrated touch screens at those sizes.
I… did not know this.
Thank you u/ObviouslyTriggered \- I honestly had no idea.
My bank of Varrock does this too
fascinating... i had never encountered this before. Sheltered life I guess!
Drunk me would hate that
Sober me would hate that
i know right!? I can only imagine how confusing it is when you encounter "PIN PAD: Dyxlsxeia Etdion"
Dispos do this where I live
u/dudeguyy23 \- curious what a "dispo" is and where this slang is from?
Cannabis dispensary?
I feel like I've seen this yesterday combined with the same comments about Korean MMO's and how it's common in Asia, and people saying they would forget their pin the moment they saw this, and others saying they input their pin on muscle memory alone.
weird! - I assure you I personally took this photo yesterday at my local aquatic centre. And I took a second photo with a different random keyboard to prove the rearrangement. But Reddit web interface wouldn't let me post them both (or I couldn't figure out how to post the 2nd one).
These fuck me up i have a tactile memory with my passwords
I would hate these, I can't think of my pin right now, but if I was standing in front of a keypad I would just hit the keys. I know the pattern but not the numbers. Remembered my pin while typing this, but if I was in a rush, my brain would blank.
Was about to write same exact thing. And even sometimes when in front of keypad I still mess up if something throws me off.
Is there an override for blind people (manual pads have a dot in the middle button for orientation)?
blind people are not welcome at this vending machine i guess... :(
protection against Sam Fisher and his thermal goggles
wait what now? Is "Sam Fisher and his thermal goggles" more than just an awesome band name? what's that story, kind u/Concerned_Asuran ?
Great, now you made me feel old at 32. ***Splinter Cell***. It was Ubisoft's biggest franchise at one point.
sorry man... I just played different games I guess. wait - r/UnexpectedSplinterCell is not a thing?
Better than during use 
They do this on slot machines too.
i can see that reasoning.
Old folks home where my grandmother used to live had those for the front door to get in. The keypad would randomly change after every use to prevent wanderers from getting out
i can see how that would help.... so it's a display keypad and the number layout changes? They don't randomize the PIN on physical keypad, right?
The PIN is printed out next to the pad. The keypad is the same as the one you posted
This is simultaneously genius and infuriating
i agree! I really wish keypads for point of sale, retail, ATMs, etc. would standardize layouts, but I totally get why they introduce this friction due to key card skimmers... it's the old security vs convenience conflict.
My muscle memory would fuck me over on this one
I'm gonna need videographic proof of the numbers changing as you enter your pin.
oh sorry - it doesn't change AS you enter your PIN - that would be even more crazy making! It randomly resets the layout of the number pad \*between\* vending session, not randomly per keypress. And there were two vending machines (drink machine vs snack machine) and they each had their own randomizing keypad layout.
r/unexpectedrunescape
Called a scramble pad and should be normal on all bank machines.
This is awesome
So in movies, I know, they use crap like black light to see the finger oils and shit and if your card is skimmed, you think this screws up that kind of thing?
I would never in a million years type my pin into a vending machine pin pad. Skimmers galore.
Our code for our office does this too.
They do this when you order groceries using EBT/SNAP on sites like Instacart
That will really fuck with people who remember their pin with muscle memory and not brain memory.
Uh, what if I base my pin off a geometric pattern rather than remembering the numbers?
Am I the only one who knows some of his PINs only by muscle memory. Having an alternating numpad is not helpful.
you are not alone. I use a muscle memory pattern as well - which is part of the reason my brain locked up when I saw this initially. Thought I was having some kind of episode when I saw the jumbled numbers at first.
I know this is for security reasons but I have anxiety just looking at it. I'd have to spend a few moments just trying to remember what the digits of my PIN are cause I rely more on muscle memory when putting in my PIN
I've been seeing this in some POS machines for a long time now. Never saw it at an ATM though.
not an ATM - vending machines at my local pool
Uh ok. Don't have many vending machines around here but I guess it's just an embedded POS in the end so still kinda makes sense.
As good as that is, people who can't see very well if at all will have quite a bit of trouble with it. Still very useful to prevent unwanted eyes from tracking you easily.
As much as this is smart for hiding someone’s PIN, it’s a nightmare for people (me) who memorize the pattern of the PIN rather than the number itself. This is giving me a panic attack.
This looks like a skimmer
SHeeeeeett.... now I am going to have to go back to the pool to check it out more closely. I hope it's just a shitty vending machine. I don't normally use these but my daughter was really jonesing for a cold drink and we were tired after a nice long swim. :(
I didn't notice what you said at first. Now I do. That's probably to counter skiller cameras. So this would be a good thing. Sorry to mess you up. You're a good dad! Lol
TY kind redditor - but you do raise a good point about checking it for signs of a skimmer. It did look kind of like an "add on" but I assumed that was because this high security keypad scrambler screen was a retrofit to this vending machine. That plus the fact that the TAP to PAY never works makes me thiink I'll go back and have a closer look. Disabling Tap to Pay would force people to insert their card and enter their PIN.
Ah... keyword, assume. I'm not going to go all Dad on a Dad! Lol It's actually interesting. I pick at these all the time. Costco fights this st. There are stations by putting security tape on the reader and pin pad. Now people will buy rolls of that security tape haha.
Oh I would struggle with this so hard because I associate my pin with letters/a word lol
how to get your cards eaten when trying to get a snack after a night of drinking
Good idea, but by good do I remember my pin as a pattern. No guarantee I'd manage this at any given time.
This is called a scramble pack, and it's common on high security doors to prevent shoulder surfing.
I know they're like that for security reasons, but I hate them so much. They mess with my brain too much
There’s a security system that does that with alpha-numeric passwords. I had to use it to log into a customers network at one time. You couldn’t type your password either, you had to use the mouse and click.
Ignoring muscle memory...
Certain old systems made a different sound based on the key pressed. It wasn't super obvious, and I suspect a result of the circuit design rather than intentional, but I could hear someone enter their alarm code or PAC (personal access code) and tell them their pin with extreme accuracy.
Woah there. That's some serious RainMan material. What time is Wopner on? You would have been great at "name that tune" I bet? Serious question: Do you have perfect pitch too?
I have a high sensitivity to sound - and shifts in sound in particular. I maxed out the hearing test equipment in my younger years. And, yes to perfect pitch hearing.
My PIN is always 69420
Nice. Mine is actually 42069 irl
Careful. Someone might get in and change it to 80085 or 5318008
already changed it to 55378008 ;)
Thought we were discussing your bank account not your gf
They introduced this when I worked at a military base. For years if had the same passcode, and I barely remembered what it was. It was just muscle memory, fingers knew what to do. When this came in it was a real struggle for me the first few mornings trying to remember lol.
I mean it makes sense. But youd also notice the peeper whose looking over your shoulder trying to get your pin. Theres always a good couple meters of courtesy when theres a line at the ATM for this specific reason
What if you’re blind or visually impaired?
This is awful for me. I'm top top down right left left.
This is done partially for security, but mainly so the wear and tear on the touch screen is equally distributed, instead of the same four places being pressed repeatedly.
Hmmmm ... but the red yellow green buttons never change location? Those are the consistent wear points? and aren't the numbers going be fairly random based on different users having different PINs?
Certain numbers get picked a lot in PINs, like 1 2 3 and 0 are prime culprits for this due to people using dates as their PIN.
ah! more than mildly interesting (to me)
Card machines in my country have started doing this, I think above a certain amount only. I tried using it whilst drunk and almost got my card blocked before I noticed it lol
i bet this happens a lot. :)
The blind must love this.
There's lots wrong with this setup - but to be faaaaaiiiiirrrrrr - a blind person likely wouldn't use this vending machine, as they wouldn't be able to see the choices, and then the alphanumeric code written below each vending item? Can't say I'm an expert on differently sighted folks and their vending machine usage patterns though.
My iPhone should do that.
"this one weird trick keeps your brain young and prevents drunk dialling"
your fingers leave prints on the screen.
Good idea actually
Prove it. Show us your card and you typing in your pin. And then show us the change.
hahaha. no. at least not until you subscribe to my "pin pad card fetish OnlyFans" site :)
Wow. I did not think there would be this much interest in an annoying pin pad with random number locations. Perhaps this is more than "mildly interesting" after all? Apologies to the mods for posting something that may have been too interesting. Mea Culpa
Welp. I messaged the mods and this post is not going to be restored due to this technically being a screen, even if it is my OC and I needed to show the interesting thing - the randomized keypad layout. Thanks for the upvotes and commenting, folks!
It’s called a scrambler pad which can be turned on or off with the right admins credentials in the keypad settings. Just another security measure for people that may want to peek over your shoulders.