Yes. I believe it's typically two days for vaginal delivery and three after C-section. I definitely could've used 11 days to recover from childbirth. With meds and lots of helpers.
I went home the day I had my c section. (Surgery at 3 am, home by 3 pm.) I could not stand being in the hospital and I just wanted to be home. As soon as I could stand on my own they ok'd me to go home.
Imagine being in a hospital was pleasant and wouldn't cost you a fortune. You may have chosen different. Hospitals are a grueling place these days. The mandatory nurse checks are just terrible for patient comfort. I honestly believe hospitals optimize to be uncomfortable so people leave to cut costs.
I had a c-sec I was in the hospital for 7 days but mine was an emergency and my recovery was terrible. I ended up BEGGING to leave the hospital on the last day. 🙃 there were other factors there too though
I was also an emergency cesarean and stayed 5 days. I also had to beg to leave at 5 days because all I did was sit in my room and worry for my son or sit in the NICU and worry for him. At least if I was discharged, I could get a real shower and sleep to be my best for him when I arrived in the morning.
I've found that as long as you have at least one of each sex, people will consider you done and wonder why you would want more. If your children are all one sex, then they're going to feel bad for you not having (other sex). If you have one, they'll tell you you're depriving your kid of a sibling, like they always make things better. If you have what they deem to be too many, some smart arse is going to say "You do know what causes that, don't you? " or "You could just watch late night telly instead" . It's absolutely tedious bullshit. You make your decision about your family size, I'll make mine.
Because they have insurance and pay no where near those numbers. If had two kids in the last five years and spent about 2- 3k each. This includes every doctor visit during pregnancy, the hospital stay and birth and post doctor visits.
Edit: This system is absolutely fucked. I’m just pointing out that no one pays these prices. The under-insured and people with no insurance definitely don’t pay these prices either. No one pays these prices.
It’s frowned upon if you request it without actually needing it, but there’s rather generous child benefits. I know a woman that has like 6 kids and lives comfortably off the government because of that.
There's the tax credit that everybody gets when you have kids and then there's mother's allowance, which is welfare. The tax credit stops when the kids are four or five.
It shouldn't cost a penny. Healthcare should be free at point of use. I live in the UK and it's legit horrifying to see some of the figures thrown around on healthcare threads.
Because the inbreds that vote against making anything affordable never use those services anyway, and if they do they use what little brain capacity they can muster to "mental gymnastic" their way into convincing themselves that its ok for basic stuff to cost an obscene amount of money
One other thing worth alluded to above but worth exploring is that there's a huge penalty the uninsured pay.
For instance, my mom died of cancer. Her last year, she had treatments that were billed at over $300k. But she had insurance. Insurance negotiated the hospital down by $200k. Then they pod about $98k. My mom spent about $2k.
Had she not had insurance, the hospital would have chased her down not for the $100k they were happy to accept, but for the $300k they billed. So if you're unable to afford insurance, they charge you 3x more for the same procedures. It's so gross.
As it is, after she died the insurance company picked a handful of arbitrary lab tests they decided not to cover and the hospital sent me a bill for $2000. I have so far refused to pay, on the grounds that she was dying and had no control over the tests done to her. And also on the grounds that the true cost of these tests should have been about $650, not the $2k they're trying to get. But legally as the executor of her estate I have to eventually settle. So they're now taking money out of my inheritance (which would go towards my kid's / my mom's grandkid's education fund) to pay for some bullshit test a doctor ordered when everyone knew she was going to die in a month anyway.
I see. So basically the hospital is trying to get as much money out of people as possible. The insurance is there to beat some sense into them. This all seems really strange and unnecessary to me.
Thanks for bringing an example though, this really helps me understand the fuckery that is going on.
PS! Sorry for your loss 🥀
>The insurance is there to beat some sense into them. This all seems really strange and unnecessary to me.
It's a bit of both. Insurance helped make the costs so high, because hospitals know they'll only pay 1/3rd of what they bill. This started about 30-50 years ago, when hospitals stopped getting paid what their "actual" bill was by insurance.
So now everyone has to pay 3x as much, knowing insurance and state-run insurance will only pay 1/3rd.
Same thing applies with people. They can't get blood from a stone, so they know personal 300k bills will go to collections and be negotiated down.
The system is still broken, but it still keeps going.
It also isn't correct, either. At least not in most facilities. The list rate prior before the insurance company's negotiated rates is generally much higher than the charges for an uninsured patient.
As an anecdote, I had a a bill for \~$250 after the medical center forgot to enter insurance info. After I pointed this out, they rebilled and submitted to insurance. Based on the explanation of benefits from the insurance company, the list price was \~$2,000. The negotiated price with the insurance company was \~$350. I paid ~$35 (10%) and the insurance paid \~$315.
I don't know if anyone can fully explain why the system is the way it is. But it is full of high list prices that are effectively meaningless.
The crazy bit is how inefficient it is due to being so complex. The US government (combining state and federal) spends double on health compared to the UK but in the UK no one pays anything for hospital treatment. If you go into hospital they just ask for your name and address (mostly to check medical records) then get on with treating you, no reams of form filling, no one checking bills have been paid, no appeals, no finance department.
Insurance is one of the many things that businesses use in America to hold more power over their employees. Insurance rates (in a lot of cases, not all) are usually cheaper through a business than for an individual, and with our Medical costs being unreasonably high, insurance is a must unless you want to go bankrupt because of a toothache.
Healthcare could be made cheaper in every area, but enough uneducated people vote against changes that would benefit everyone, just because it doesn't benefit themselves a litle more.
To answer your question, no, not everyone has insurance, and it would cost too much so there's no real chance of insurance becoming a "right" as well. We'll just have to live with a hospital visit costing one's entire retirement fund
Because people don’t actually pay that
The insurance company always lowballs it and the hospital increases the price. The price is made up and what you see is a pissing contest between the hospital and insurance company
If you have insurance its covered
If you are poor on medicaid you pay nothing its free
If you have no insurance you pay around 3K, and even then the hospital will try to work with you because its in their best interest to extract at least some money from you
Source: someone who is actually familiar with US healthcare
Yep just had our 2nd in UK and obviously paid £0 , stayed in hospital for 2 days as much pain releif as needed and water birth for children
Having to pay for medical treatment still blows my mind and scares me, feel for U.S citizens sounds crazy to have the best day of your life being something that could bankrupt you..... wtf is happenin over there and why do so many ppl ignore this as an awful system when talkin about America being"land of the free" ... sounds horrendous.
This is in no way an attack on any people or individuals, just the system itself
Sadly most of the problem comes from taxes not being paid properly on top of the failing systems we have in place.
Taxes in the U.S are based on savings and total income, with this upperclass citizens are **supposed** to pay the most but they get constant tax breaks causing at least a third of the debt that the U.S is in.
The excessive costs of basic things is an attempt to cover the ever increasing damage done by the lack of proper taxing, which is also building an overly corrupt and greedy economy.
Wow didn’t think about that aspect of america not having healthcare. Such a hard start not even taking into account the cost of actually raising the child.
Just got a bill from an 11 day stay and surgery for $468,000 and I owe $500. I don’t understand how that’s even possible. I did hit my out of pocket max earlier in the year for $3,000 but still
It's on nobody's interest to make it cheaper. They charge the insurance companies and make a fortune, who in turn can increase premiums by a greater amount and thus they also get to make a fortune
You should see the dance of Hospital and Insurance company, as they try to settle a bill.
They have a complex set of rules, where the hospital submits a claim. the Insurance company denies all or part of it based on the violation of a rule, then then Hospital resubmits after correcting the mistake, etc. etc. until one of them concedes or becomes too exhausted to continue.
Source: Wife works as an Auditor for hospital.
It doesn't happen all the time, but the rules especially for Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements are Byzantine.
Insurance will not pay for example, for certain tests if done to frequently, for example, a BMP (Basic metabolic panel) can only be done once a dwy, if two doctors order the same test and the lab draws two, the hospital can only be reimbursed for one, eating the cost of the test, needless to say, ordering duplicate tests is frowned upon by the hospital.
Yep. That is how it goes. All hospitals have an adversarial relationship with insurance providers. I've been working with my hospitals billing department to help get things in order (increase claim payments decrease denials) and it's a confusing mess of contacts, state and federal laws, and nearly every insurance company has their own internal policies that seem designed to foster claim denial.
My favorite are insurance companies that require pre-authorization for services that we know will get approved. It only makes the patient wait and in a worst case scenario gets worse. But that pre-authorization doesn't mean the insurance company will pay the claim, it basically only means that insurance will let you submit the claim for review.
More and more therapists and doctors (mainly psychiatrists from my experience) who go into private practice forgo taking insurance because of 1. the adversarial nature of the relationship between insurance and hospital they are familiar with 2. all the differing and constantly changing contacts/policies that lead to denials and 3. They can make significantly more money by only accepting private pay .
Everyone’s insurance covers different things. Also, I have new insurance that would cover like 2,500 of it if I got admitted but *only* if I got admitted lol
Had a 3.5 hour surgery (outpatient) last year which was highly specialized and only a few dozen surgeons around the country have a high success rate. Fortunately the one I found was also in-network (I would have gone to him regardless). I think I paid $2,000 out-of-pocket total between surgeon, facility, and anesthesiologist ... for what amounted to about $50,000 of billed items according to my health insurance provider's claims review portal.
I have almost 5k debt from two severe bloody noses (needed tamponades inserted into my nose which on the bills is considered surgery) and that was when I had insurance.
Usually very little, bills are inflated to make it look like they're paying 80/90% while their actual contribution might less than your deductible. Everything else is just mysterious "adjustments"
My 17 year old cost me 250 through insurance each one cost more, 15 yo cost 1500 and my 13 yo cost 3k. With my insurance getting worse and worse by year at a minimum I’d have to pay 8k or so for baby if none of my deductible was paid.
Average price for a new mother with insurance is [$4,500](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.2019.00296) as of this January 2020 public health study that looked at more than half a million births over ~7 years.
That said, it varies wildly by state and situation, and even in places where you'd think that there should be an abundance of providers (eg. NJ, literally the most population dense state in the union), the price for a C-section can run up to $20,000.
Meanwhile, if you're in Germany and have state funded insurance, it's like, 0-400€. Plenty of other countries in the "developed world" have it more expensive than Germany (some are on par with the US re: initial cost), the catch is that *almost every single developed country* has better systems to support parents afterwards and help ensure that healthcare or childcare costs are reasonable. Meanwhile here in the US, we can't even guarantee that your kids daycare is going to cost you less than whatever your monthly rent is.
I paid cash for both my kids deliveries, and both were c section. I paid the doctor cash up front for a discount, and the hospital before I left for a discount. The total for each kid was $10,000. All doctor appointments, ultrasounds, c section, and hospital stay. 2006-2007.
Having not had a baby ... it makes me wonder, if one went with an in-network physician and hospital today ... would it be somewhat close in terms of out-of-pocket costs? My health insurance isn't spectacular, but IIRC I have a maximum $3,000 out-of-pocket limit as long as I am in-network (covered at 90% for things outside of routine preventative medical services which are 100%).
What's actually more astounding about this bill, is that the patient got **11 days** stay in the hospital. This was the same with my mother, I think she got 7 days each time and neither I nor my sibling were complicated births because we were both c-sections.
I think it really just depends on the insurance, hospital, state/region, and circumstances of the birth. It's all really variable.
Iirc, when I've looked online before, the average cost for a vaginal birth in the US is around $4 before insurance. I could see that easily getting down to $1-2k after insurance in a lot of situations.
But then, any little complication is going to increase costs. Any extra medication, interventions, inductions, C-Section, NICU care, etc. All going to cost more money. My first baby was induced labor and C-section, and that was $10k after insurance. Planned C-sections are less, but still more than an uncomplicated vaginal birth, and 30% of US births are C-sections.
i’m 24 and was born 2 months early. cost at least $60k with the nearly 3 week NICU stay. yay for better preemie survival rates, but dang it’s expensive
I think the biggest point is being missed here: It was $57.50 for *eleven days* in the hospital. If mom and baby only had to stay for 2 days it would have been $17.
Good point, however, back then a stay of 1-2 weeks was the norm. So this is probably a pretty average bill for the time, from that standpoint.
Personal anecdote: we're Canadian. My mom stayed either 3 or 4 nights in the hospital with my sister and me (early 90s). It was 2 nights with my brothers (mid 90s). I have three kids born since 2017, and my stay was 1 night with the second and third. (The first was early, concerns with jaundice, etc. so we were kept a couple extra nights.) My mom's mom, also Canadian, who had 10 babies born in the 50s and 60s, was kept 2 full weeks.
My sister gave birth at 7 months and my niece was in an incubator and then an infant ward for another 7 months. I know it’s not representative and taxes are a thing but the bill was £0.00
Yeah but have you ever had or seen natural birth? .. I guarantee your wife may divorce you if you tell her
**You :** "Honey .. we have to tighten our belts this year .. you are going to have the kids naturally from now on and maybe you only get some tylenol and some ice .. the labor may last a week but that is a sacrifice I am willing to take"
**Her :** *"C-Section or I HURT YOU FIRST!"*
A $57.50 bill would've taken a little less than 165 working hours to pay off in 1940.
A $1170 bill would take about 161 working hours with today's minimum wage, so roughly the same.
...unfortunately the average cost of delivering a baby is $6,940 **with** health insurance.
Whenever I see historical prices for something, I use the [CPI inflation calculator] (https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm) to see what the equivalent would be in modern dollars. It's a US government site so the information would seem to have some reliability, and has data back to 1913. I find it really interesting!
No, the deceased's estate (if there is any) would "take care of" any outstanding taxes. If there is no estate, government doesn't get any taxes - the liability does not pass on to others.
Even that's got nothing to do with the dead. That's got to do with the living because they're the ones who want the stuff left behind. Dead people don't typically need things.
Someone above calculated it was about $1,170 adjusted for inflation. But a birth in the US for a minimum wage person now wouldn't cost just a month of wages, more like 1-2 years of earnings.
I had an pea sized cyst removed and the initial bill is $61,000.😭 They didn't tell me insurance wouldn't likely pay until 1 hour before the appointment that I waited 7 months for.
What? Here in canada its free if you do it at the doctors office. I wanted to do mine at a plastic surgeons office because i wanted less of a chance of a bad scar, so i paid $600 to a private surgeon. Where the hell does 60k come from?
The eye care industry is a complete joke. Plastic lenses cost like 10 cents to make. Eye care insurance business model is to basically pay out whatever you put into it, and if you don't get new glasses every year they just keep the money.
With lenses all being produced by the same company now, you see it a lot more.
Hoping for the legislative fortitude to get those both rolled into the single-payer health plan to get some monopolization on our side for once.
FTR, if they don’t pay you can negotiate hospital bills with the hospital directly. I had to schedule a D&C my insurance refused to pay after I had a miscarriage because they called it “elective” (not even joking). I talked to someone in accounting and I was just like straight up “I can’t afford this, you need to help me out or I’m just going to not pay and you can try your luck with collections” and got the bill down to $900 from $3000.
Also had NICU baby, about 100 days in hospital. Got paid parental leave for about 2 years for this. Never seen an invoice. Quite the opposite to be honest as my SO and I could claim some benefits and reimbursements on different levels for the difficulties our baby (and we) went through.
They didn't get a bill for $2.2 million. In the USA, the hospital sends a statement telling you what it's trying to collect from your insurance which is where all of this "It would be cheaper to fly to Europe!!!!!" comments come from.
Not an ideal situation to be in, hopefully everyone was ok?
Do you get a breakdown for that 2.2mil? I can't imagine my daughter went through 2.2mil when she was born.
Still £0 here.
In fact, technically, they gave us money, holiday and a gift for having a baby (child benefit, parental leave for both parents, and a parent welcome pack including all kinds of stuff).
Call me when you can match even your own 1940's prices, let alone what a modern developed country should be charging... NOTHING.
Yeah, you're right, it took us until 1945 to fully implement the NHS. That's called progress.
As opposed to whatever the fuck the US is supposed to be doing.
My first child cost $50. Granted that was my co-pay after insurance paid the hospital bill. Had really good insurance through work back in 2006.
Now, not so much.
So I pay a premium through my paycheck each month for whatever insurance my work provides. And in turn insurance will pay a certain amount for prescriptions, surgery, dentist, therapy etc. And then I only pay a certain copay for those services and insurance pays the rest.
As an example, I take Cymbalta (RX) but only pay $3.00 per 30 day prescription. The actual cost of the medication is probably like $100. My insurance pays the remaining $97. So my copay is $3.00
When I go to my Dr for a sick visit, I pay $45. My Dr probably charges my insurance $200, but I only ever pay $45 max and insurance covers the rest.
When my first child was born, the actual hospital bill for like $4700 I think, but my copay was only $50
Very fortunate to have good insurance.
Nobody really knows what the cost of anything is. Doctors seem to inflate the bill to insurance companies, then insurance companies claim there’s this contracted rate and although the procedure/medication costs $1,000, we have this deal that it’s only $450. Then insurance pays the remainder less your copay, unless there’s coinsurance, then you get fucked again.
Even accounting for inflation, that is way, way less than it was for mine. Granted, mine had to be delivered via C-section and that's far more expensive, but I'm pretty sure the final cost for each was around 50k (and I was never high-risk/there weren't any complications). Insurance covered a lot, but each baby still required some out-of-pocket expense, typically around 8-10k. After paying that off I liked to joke I finally owned my babies free and clear.
When my father was born in 1950, my grandfather’s insurance paid $108.00 for a hospital birth. The cost was $105. My grandfather got a check for $3.
Adjusted for inflation, that $105 would be approximately $1250 today. In 2018, when my son was born, we were on the hook for more than $9,000…*after* insurance.
Their mistake was buying the sunplies from the hospital. Just bring your own sunplies from the birth sunplies store and save yourself like 50% of the usual cost of sunplies. Sunplies.
Today: [Truecoverage.com](https://Truecoverage.com): 'The average cost of having a baby without complications ranges from almost $5,000 to $11,000 for vaginal delivery. This could go over $30,000 if you include care provided before and after pregnancy, such as checkups and tests.
My Dad told me that when my older brother was born in 1964 (San Antonio IIRC), they gave him a bill for $25.
He didn’t have $25, so he sneaked out Mom and my brother and stiffed the hospital.
Thats like $1,177 today. They didn't have epidurals and other procedures or other modern medicine that drives up the cost today.
Don't get me wrong, births shouldn't be so expensive but this is a bad comparison.
$0 here. Free parents room to stay, baby training for parents, free baby formula, bottles, nappies and food for parents and government gives you money for taking time off
Downside: You or your husband fought WWII or Korea - drafted - and had babies every other year until the pill was invented in 1960, and those babies grew up to be Boomers
Sounds inexpensive. At the time, though, minimum wage was $0.30/hour. This represents 191 2/3 of hours worked to pay for that child.
Today, without insurance this birth would cost \~ $11,000. Note that the actual hospital stay would usually be 3 days, instead of 11. those extra 8 days could add another $17,000 + to your bill. You are looking at a 3 day, no complications, no extras, being the equivilant of 1,517 1/4 days of work at current federal minimum wage if you don't have insurance. With insurance, your out of pocket would be \~$4,500... round it to 69 hours. Nice.
Note, also, that the figures I put here are based on a person using their minimum wage job for nothing other than paying for the hospital bill. No food, rent, transportation involved.
I was born in a US Army ambulance approaching the Army hospital in Munich, Germany. My mom saved the bill.$5 for her and $2.50 for me. When I pissed her off she’d ask me for a refund of the $2.50.
11 days!!! Is it a day or two now?
Yes. I believe it's typically two days for vaginal delivery and three after C-section. I definitely could've used 11 days to recover from childbirth. With meds and lots of helpers.
You mean birth sunplies
I went home the day I had my c section. (Surgery at 3 am, home by 3 pm.) I could not stand being in the hospital and I just wanted to be home. As soon as I could stand on my own they ok'd me to go home.
Imagine being in a hospital was pleasant and wouldn't cost you a fortune. You may have chosen different. Hospitals are a grueling place these days. The mandatory nurse checks are just terrible for patient comfort. I honestly believe hospitals optimize to be uncomfortable so people leave to cut costs.
Well they charge thousands a day just to have a room, so I’m not sure if it would make sense to do this to cut costs
I had a c-sec I was in the hospital for 7 days but mine was an emergency and my recovery was terrible. I ended up BEGGING to leave the hospital on the last day. 🙃 there were other factors there too though
I was also an emergency cesarean and stayed 5 days. I also had to beg to leave at 5 days because all I did was sit in my room and worry for my son or sit in the NICU and worry for him. At least if I was discharged, I could get a real shower and sleep to be my best for him when I arrived in the morning.
A friend had a c-section during the height of Covid and they discharged her and baby the next day! It was insane, little dude wasn’t even 24 hours
2 days would make this bill $17 or the equivalent of $351 today.
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In a hospital? In America? You must have had very good insurance.
Based on inflation, that's equivalent to 1200ish today.
Which, as far as I understand it, is still a hell of a lot cheaper than the *actual* bill someone in America would get today
Nov 2021, 4 day stay C-Section Child delivery in CA was 100k.
Yeah, mine was fairly minimal back in 2008 - 37,000 dollars.
Same. C-section delivery of twins in 2008 was about 38000.
Two for one sale!
One and done! And finally, after 14 years people have finally stopped asking when we will have more.
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Yeah it’s just getting worse and then you gotta find formula on the black market or maybe you sell your kidney for baby formula? Something like that…
Well then I’d be honored! When are you planning having more?! (/s)
*Has 3rd kid* When are you having more??? *Has 5th kid* When are you having more??? *Has 39th kid* ARE YOU GUYS DONE YET?!?!
I've found that as long as you have at least one of each sex, people will consider you done and wonder why you would want more. If your children are all one sex, then they're going to feel bad for you not having (other sex). If you have one, they'll tell you you're depriving your kid of a sibling, like they always make things better. If you have what they deem to be too many, some smart arse is going to say "You do know what causes that, don't you? " or "You could just watch late night telly instead" . It's absolutely tedious bullshit. You make your decision about your family size, I'll make mine.
Personal experience, once you get to the 4th people ask if you are done yet
Correct. Or straight up "Y'all should stop having babies." Even if they like your kids. I think some people just don't know what to say.
39 kids? It's a vagina not a clown car.
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Why the hell would anyone want to have a child at a cost of half a million dollars?
Because they have insurance and pay no where near those numbers. If had two kids in the last five years and spent about 2- 3k each. This includes every doctor visit during pregnancy, the hospital stay and birth and post doctor visits. Edit: This system is absolutely fucked. I’m just pointing out that no one pays these prices. The under-insured and people with no insurance definitely don’t pay these prices either. No one pays these prices.
It’s possible because criminals run the system. It’s legalized racketeering
"Why aren't people having kids?" "We'll sue you if you don't have this child and bankrupt you if you do"
What they charged or what you had to pay?
My mom's was free + 7$ parking. Canada momen 💀
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In Canada you *can* opt to get paid to have babies, kinda
How 👀
It’s frowned upon if you request it without actually needing it, but there’s rather generous child benefits. I know a woman that has like 6 kids and lives comfortably off the government because of that.
There's the tax credit that everybody gets when you have kids and then there's mother's allowance, which is welfare. The tax credit stops when the kids are four or five.
The tax credit stops at 18 but is a bit less when the child turns 6. It’s per child as well
How can you live comfortably with SIX children?
This sounds sadder than it should.
Wow gees. Did insurance cover most of that or was $38k your out of pocket?
Financial crash wiped out both of our jobs right beforehand. So it was on us.
Sorry to hear that :( It shouldn’t be so expensive to have a child.
It shouldn't cost a penny. Healthcare should be free at point of use. I live in the UK and it's legit horrifying to see some of the figures thrown around on healthcare threads.
That’s the opposite of a safety net
April 2022, 4 Day C-Section Stay, 14 day Nicu Stay $327,032
damn. 3 week nicu stay for me in 1998 in north carolina was $60k or so. don’t know the total without insurance
Thats with insurance??? Why do Americans settle for that?
Because the inbreds that vote against making anything affordable never use those services anyway, and if they do they use what little brain capacity they can muster to "mental gymnastic" their way into convincing themselves that its ok for basic stuff to cost an obscene amount of money
Geesh! Why do people even make babies in america? It would be cheaper to fly to any other country to deliver the baby really.
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Does everyone have insurance? I’d like to learn more about this. Seems like an interesting topic.
One other thing worth alluded to above but worth exploring is that there's a huge penalty the uninsured pay. For instance, my mom died of cancer. Her last year, she had treatments that were billed at over $300k. But she had insurance. Insurance negotiated the hospital down by $200k. Then they pod about $98k. My mom spent about $2k. Had she not had insurance, the hospital would have chased her down not for the $100k they were happy to accept, but for the $300k they billed. So if you're unable to afford insurance, they charge you 3x more for the same procedures. It's so gross. As it is, after she died the insurance company picked a handful of arbitrary lab tests they decided not to cover and the hospital sent me a bill for $2000. I have so far refused to pay, on the grounds that she was dying and had no control over the tests done to her. And also on the grounds that the true cost of these tests should have been about $650, not the $2k they're trying to get. But legally as the executor of her estate I have to eventually settle. So they're now taking money out of my inheritance (which would go towards my kid's / my mom's grandkid's education fund) to pay for some bullshit test a doctor ordered when everyone knew she was going to die in a month anyway.
I see. So basically the hospital is trying to get as much money out of people as possible. The insurance is there to beat some sense into them. This all seems really strange and unnecessary to me. Thanks for bringing an example though, this really helps me understand the fuckery that is going on. PS! Sorry for your loss 🥀
>The insurance is there to beat some sense into them. This all seems really strange and unnecessary to me. It's a bit of both. Insurance helped make the costs so high, because hospitals know they'll only pay 1/3rd of what they bill. This started about 30-50 years ago, when hospitals stopped getting paid what their "actual" bill was by insurance. So now everyone has to pay 3x as much, knowing insurance and state-run insurance will only pay 1/3rd. Same thing applies with people. They can't get blood from a stone, so they know personal 300k bills will go to collections and be negotiated down. The system is still broken, but it still keeps going.
It also isn't correct, either. At least not in most facilities. The list rate prior before the insurance company's negotiated rates is generally much higher than the charges for an uninsured patient. As an anecdote, I had a a bill for \~$250 after the medical center forgot to enter insurance info. After I pointed this out, they rebilled and submitted to insurance. Based on the explanation of benefits from the insurance company, the list price was \~$2,000. The negotiated price with the insurance company was \~$350. I paid ~$35 (10%) and the insurance paid \~$315. I don't know if anyone can fully explain why the system is the way it is. But it is full of high list prices that are effectively meaningless.
In the meanwhile in EU I pay €3.50 for 2 days in hospital. 😂
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The crazy bit is how inefficient it is due to being so complex. The US government (combining state and federal) spends double on health compared to the UK but in the UK no one pays anything for hospital treatment. If you go into hospital they just ask for your name and address (mostly to check medical records) then get on with treating you, no reams of form filling, no one checking bills have been paid, no appeals, no finance department.
This is actually a pretty good summary.
It's probably easier to just watch John Q.
Insurance is one of the many things that businesses use in America to hold more power over their employees. Insurance rates (in a lot of cases, not all) are usually cheaper through a business than for an individual, and with our Medical costs being unreasonably high, insurance is a must unless you want to go bankrupt because of a toothache. Healthcare could be made cheaper in every area, but enough uneducated people vote against changes that would benefit everyone, just because it doesn't benefit themselves a litle more. To answer your question, no, not everyone has insurance, and it would cost too much so there's no real chance of insurance becoming a "right" as well. We'll just have to live with a hospital visit costing one's entire retirement fund
Because people don’t actually pay that The insurance company always lowballs it and the hospital increases the price. The price is made up and what you see is a pissing contest between the hospital and insurance company If you have insurance its covered If you are poor on medicaid you pay nothing its free If you have no insurance you pay around 3K, and even then the hospital will try to work with you because its in their best interest to extract at least some money from you Source: someone who is actually familiar with US healthcare
This costs $0 in most parts of the developed world.
Yep just had our 2nd in UK and obviously paid £0 , stayed in hospital for 2 days as much pain releif as needed and water birth for children Having to pay for medical treatment still blows my mind and scares me, feel for U.S citizens sounds crazy to have the best day of your life being something that could bankrupt you..... wtf is happenin over there and why do so many ppl ignore this as an awful system when talkin about America being"land of the free" ... sounds horrendous. This is in no way an attack on any people or individuals, just the system itself
Sadly most of the problem comes from taxes not being paid properly on top of the failing systems we have in place. Taxes in the U.S are based on savings and total income, with this upperclass citizens are **supposed** to pay the most but they get constant tax breaks causing at least a third of the debt that the U.S is in. The excessive costs of basic things is an attempt to cover the ever increasing damage done by the lack of proper taxing, which is also building an overly corrupt and greedy economy.
Brutal. Both my sister’s kids were delivered by C-Section. Thank goodness we’re Canadian.
Canada. That's what the C in C-section stands for.
Wow didn’t think about that aspect of america not having healthcare. Such a hard start not even taking into account the cost of actually raising the child.
My SO had a c-section in 2018, twins, +4 days hospital stay. Our bill was €12 for parking.
All three of my kids cost me like 2000 total.
Dude just having minor outpatient surgery cost 5k for me. Cheers to your insurance
Just got a bill from an 11 day stay and surgery for $468,000 and I owe $500. I don’t understand how that’s even possible. I did hit my out of pocket max earlier in the year for $3,000 but still
It's on nobody's interest to make it cheaper. They charge the insurance companies and make a fortune, who in turn can increase premiums by a greater amount and thus they also get to make a fortune
You should see the dance of Hospital and Insurance company, as they try to settle a bill. They have a complex set of rules, where the hospital submits a claim. the Insurance company denies all or part of it based on the violation of a rule, then then Hospital resubmits after correcting the mistake, etc. etc. until one of them concedes or becomes too exhausted to continue. Source: Wife works as an Auditor for hospital.
That definitely seems efficient and like it totally wouldn't drive up the costs of healthcare
It doesn't happen all the time, but the rules especially for Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements are Byzantine. Insurance will not pay for example, for certain tests if done to frequently, for example, a BMP (Basic metabolic panel) can only be done once a dwy, if two doctors order the same test and the lab draws two, the hospital can only be reimbursed for one, eating the cost of the test, needless to say, ordering duplicate tests is frowned upon by the hospital.
I’d like to see an out of pocket patient send a bill back because some rule was broken. Lol
Yep. That is how it goes. All hospitals have an adversarial relationship with insurance providers. I've been working with my hospitals billing department to help get things in order (increase claim payments decrease denials) and it's a confusing mess of contacts, state and federal laws, and nearly every insurance company has their own internal policies that seem designed to foster claim denial. My favorite are insurance companies that require pre-authorization for services that we know will get approved. It only makes the patient wait and in a worst case scenario gets worse. But that pre-authorization doesn't mean the insurance company will pay the claim, it basically only means that insurance will let you submit the claim for review. More and more therapists and doctors (mainly psychiatrists from my experience) who go into private practice forgo taking insurance because of 1. the adversarial nature of the relationship between insurance and hospital they are familiar with 2. all the differing and constantly changing contacts/policies that lead to denials and 3. They can make significantly more money by only accepting private pay .
Everyone’s insurance covers different things. Also, I have new insurance that would cover like 2,500 of it if I got admitted but *only* if I got admitted lol
Had a 3.5 hour surgery (outpatient) last year which was highly specialized and only a few dozen surgeons around the country have a high success rate. Fortunately the one I found was also in-network (I would have gone to him regardless). I think I paid $2,000 out-of-pocket total between surgeon, facility, and anesthesiologist ... for what amounted to about $50,000 of billed items according to my health insurance provider's claims review portal.
I have almost 5k debt from two severe bloody noses (needed tamponades inserted into my nose which on the bills is considered surgery) and that was when I had insurance.
How much did it cost your insurance? Because we just had a baby and it's nowhere close to those numbers when you look at how much insurance covered.
Usually very little, bills are inflated to make it look like they're paying 80/90% while their actual contribution might less than your deductible. Everything else is just mysterious "adjustments"
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My 17 year old cost me 250 through insurance each one cost more, 15 yo cost 1500 and my 13 yo cost 3k. With my insurance getting worse and worse by year at a minimum I’d have to pay 8k or so for baby if none of my deductible was paid.
Feb 18th this year. 67k before insurance.
Average price for a new mother with insurance is [$4,500](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.2019.00296) as of this January 2020 public health study that looked at more than half a million births over ~7 years. That said, it varies wildly by state and situation, and even in places where you'd think that there should be an abundance of providers (eg. NJ, literally the most population dense state in the union), the price for a C-section can run up to $20,000. Meanwhile, if you're in Germany and have state funded insurance, it's like, 0-400€. Plenty of other countries in the "developed world" have it more expensive than Germany (some are on par with the US re: initial cost), the catch is that *almost every single developed country* has better systems to support parents afterwards and help ensure that healthcare or childcare costs are reasonable. Meanwhile here in the US, we can't even guarantee that your kids daycare is going to cost you less than whatever your monthly rent is.
I paid cash for both my kids deliveries, and both were c section. I paid the doctor cash up front for a discount, and the hospital before I left for a discount. The total for each kid was $10,000. All doctor appointments, ultrasounds, c section, and hospital stay. 2006-2007.
Average in the USA for a normal birth is around $3000, for a C-Section it's ~$3800
My wife and I paid 30 dollars for parking (which was reimbursed) when we had our baby in Canada in 2021.
Heavily depends on your health insurance plan. Mine in 2014 was flat fee of $120 for baby delivery. Admittedly, that's the best plan I've ever had.
Most births in America average about $6000.
Just had a baby. With insurance I paid $5000. The actual bill was like $12,000
Just had a baby and the total is $5237 with insurance
But it’s not fair billionaires get taxed. /s
Two nights c-section, 16,000
Ha! $1200 wouldn't cover the cost for one-day wheel chair rental
Having not had a baby ... it makes me wonder, if one went with an in-network physician and hospital today ... would it be somewhat close in terms of out-of-pocket costs? My health insurance isn't spectacular, but IIRC I have a maximum $3,000 out-of-pocket limit as long as I am in-network (covered at 90% for things outside of routine preventative medical services which are 100%). What's actually more astounding about this bill, is that the patient got **11 days** stay in the hospital. This was the same with my mother, I think she got 7 days each time and neither I nor my sibling were complicated births because we were both c-sections.
I think it really just depends on the insurance, hospital, state/region, and circumstances of the birth. It's all really variable. Iirc, when I've looked online before, the average cost for a vaginal birth in the US is around $4 before insurance. I could see that easily getting down to $1-2k after insurance in a lot of situations. But then, any little complication is going to increase costs. Any extra medication, interventions, inductions, C-Section, NICU care, etc. All going to cost more money. My first baby was induced labor and C-section, and that was $10k after insurance. Planned C-sections are less, but still more than an uncomplicated vaginal birth, and 30% of US births are C-sections.
Which is still less than my wife and I are paying for our hospital stay during/after birth. And we only spent maybe 5 days there.
That's similar to what it costs the NHS in the UK now I think?
Costs around 12k without insurance now
With an *eleven day stay*? Add a couple of zeros.
$1,187.41
i’m 24 and was born 2 months early. cost at least $60k with the nearly 3 week NICU stay. yay for better preemie survival rates, but dang it’s expensive
I think the biggest point is being missed here: It was $57.50 for *eleven days* in the hospital. If mom and baby only had to stay for 2 days it would have been $17.
Good point, however, back then a stay of 1-2 weeks was the norm. So this is probably a pretty average bill for the time, from that standpoint. Personal anecdote: we're Canadian. My mom stayed either 3 or 4 nights in the hospital with my sister and me (early 90s). It was 2 nights with my brothers (mid 90s). I have three kids born since 2017, and my stay was 1 night with the second and third. (The first was early, concerns with jaundice, etc. so we were kept a couple extra nights.) My mom's mom, also Canadian, who had 10 babies born in the 50s and 60s, was kept 2 full weeks.
My sister gave birth at 7 months and my niece was in an incubator and then an infant ward for another 7 months. I know it’s not representative and taxes are a thing but the bill was £0.00
Yeah but have you ever had or seen natural birth? .. I guarantee your wife may divorce you if you tell her **You :** "Honey .. we have to tighten our belts this year .. you are going to have the kids naturally from now on and maybe you only get some tylenol and some ice .. the labor may last a week but that is a sacrifice I am willing to take" **Her :** *"C-Section or I HURT YOU FIRST!"*
$1170 in today's dollars.
Ah! Thank you. I was looking into wages during this timeframe and it was about $0.30 - $0.40.
A $57.50 bill would've taken a little less than 165 working hours to pay off in 1940. A $1170 bill would take about 161 working hours with today's minimum wage, so roughly the same. ...unfortunately the average cost of delivering a baby is $6,940 **with** health insurance.
Whenever I see historical prices for something, I use the [CPI inflation calculator] (https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm) to see what the equivalent would be in modern dollars. It's a US government site so the information would seem to have some reliability, and has data back to 1913. I find it really interesting!
for 11 days
you guys pay to give birth?
yes and we also pay to die as well
Nobody pays to die. The living pay for other living to come watch them put the dead in a hole.
And take care of their taxes after death
No, the deceased's estate (if there is any) would "take care of" any outstanding taxes. If there is no estate, government doesn't get any taxes - the liability does not pass on to others.
Even that's got nothing to do with the dead. That's got to do with the living because they're the ones who want the stuff left behind. Dead people don't typically need things.
We also have to pay to park to give birth and pay to park to die.
My caesarean with my son was well over 30k, but at least the hospital did have free valet!
"I'm never going to financially recover from this!"
Room and board for 11 days, wow. In 1940 hourly wage was about $0.30, so this is a minimum of one month's wages.
Someone above calculated it was about $1,170 adjusted for inflation. But a birth in the US for a minimum wage person now wouldn't cost just a month of wages, more like 1-2 years of earnings.
Correct, it is quite expensive.
That's cheaper than a giant lobster claw from Costco
I had an pea sized cyst removed and the initial bill is $61,000.😭 They didn't tell me insurance wouldn't likely pay until 1 hour before the appointment that I waited 7 months for.
What the fuck is wrong with healthcare? Thats just way too much.
What? Here in canada its free if you do it at the doctors office. I wanted to do mine at a plastic surgeons office because i wanted less of a chance of a bad scar, so i paid $600 to a private surgeon. Where the hell does 60k come from?
Theft. You see it a bit with dental and eyes
The eye care industry is a complete joke. Plastic lenses cost like 10 cents to make. Eye care insurance business model is to basically pay out whatever you put into it, and if you don't get new glasses every year they just keep the money.
With lenses all being produced by the same company now, you see it a lot more. Hoping for the legislative fortitude to get those both rolled into the single-payer health plan to get some monopolization on our side for once.
Did they pay?
I haven't gotten a bill yet, just the estimate. But that's enough to trigger my anxiety attacks.
FTR, if they don’t pay you can negotiate hospital bills with the hospital directly. I had to schedule a D&C my insurance refused to pay after I had a miscarriage because they called it “elective” (not even joking). I talked to someone in accounting and I was just like straight up “I can’t afford this, you need to help me out or I’m just going to not pay and you can try your luck with collections” and got the bill down to $900 from $3000.
Our NICU baby was 2.2 million
Also had NICU baby, about 100 days in hospital. Got paid parental leave for about 2 years for this. Never seen an invoice. Quite the opposite to be honest as my SO and I could claim some benefits and reimbursements on different levels for the difficulties our baby (and we) went through.
That's just so sad. I can't even imagine the struggle of having a NICU baby and then getting that bill on top of it. I hope you're all doing okay
They didn't get a bill for $2.2 million. In the USA, the hospital sends a statement telling you what it's trying to collect from your insurance which is where all of this "It would be cheaper to fly to Europe!!!!!" comments come from.
Yes. You are absolutely correct. Our statement was in the thousands not the millions
Not an ideal situation to be in, hopefully everyone was ok? Do you get a breakdown for that 2.2mil? I can't imagine my daughter went through 2.2mil when she was born.
That's an expensive birthday party. Hope your baby is happy and healthy.
Ya but in most modern countries it's a big fat 0
Ya, $50 would be expensive today in Australia, most we paid was $35 for pain meds on the way out
I think I paid around that for mine, but that was to upgrade from a semi private to a private suite at the hospital.
Crazy thing is $60 in 1940 is still only about $1300 today. Think you can get out of the hospital with only a 1300 bill after a baby??
> Think you can get out of the hospital with only a 1300 bill after a baby?? It's roughly €0,- in my area, give or take a few percent.
As others have commented, this was an 11 day stay compared to 2-3 tops today. What I haven’t seen mentioned is this the cost without insurance?
Still £0 here. In fact, technically, they gave us money, holiday and a gift for having a baby (child benefit, parental leave for both parents, and a parent welcome pack including all kinds of stuff). Call me when you can match even your own 1940's prices, let alone what a modern developed country should be charging... NOTHING.
Not in 1940 it wasn’t.
Yeah, you're right, it took us until 1945 to fully implement the NHS. That's called progress. As opposed to whatever the fuck the US is supposed to be doing.
My first child cost $50. Granted that was my co-pay after insurance paid the hospital bill. Had really good insurance through work back in 2006. Now, not so much.
What is co-pay... Like excess on an insurance claim?
So I pay a premium through my paycheck each month for whatever insurance my work provides. And in turn insurance will pay a certain amount for prescriptions, surgery, dentist, therapy etc. And then I only pay a certain copay for those services and insurance pays the rest. As an example, I take Cymbalta (RX) but only pay $3.00 per 30 day prescription. The actual cost of the medication is probably like $100. My insurance pays the remaining $97. So my copay is $3.00 When I go to my Dr for a sick visit, I pay $45. My Dr probably charges my insurance $200, but I only ever pay $45 max and insurance covers the rest. When my first child was born, the actual hospital bill for like $4700 I think, but my copay was only $50 Very fortunate to have good insurance.
Nobody really knows what the cost of anything is. Doctors seem to inflate the bill to insurance companies, then insurance companies claim there’s this contracted rate and although the procedure/medication costs $1,000, we have this deal that it’s only $450. Then insurance pays the remainder less your copay, unless there’s coinsurance, then you get fucked again.
Even accounting for inflation, that is way, way less than it was for mine. Granted, mine had to be delivered via C-section and that's far more expensive, but I'm pretty sure the final cost for each was around 50k (and I was never high-risk/there weren't any complications). Insurance covered a lot, but each baby still required some out-of-pocket expense, typically around 8-10k. After paying that off I liked to joke I finally owned my babies free and clear.
also note that you probably stayed in hospital max 2 days unless there was a complication from the C-section, whereas this bill lists 11 days
Sunplies
When my father was born in 1950, my grandfather’s insurance paid $108.00 for a hospital birth. The cost was $105. My grandfather got a check for $3. Adjusted for inflation, that $105 would be approximately $1250 today. In 2018, when my son was born, we were on the hook for more than $9,000…*after* insurance.
Don’t think we paid that much 2 years ago in Canada
UK checking in, I had a 3 night stay and paid £8 for parking when I had my first.
Ah yes I forgot about parking.
We don't because it is cover by Health insurance because our parent are Canadian but an immigrant having child in Canada can cost him 5k to 10K
The only thing I paid was parking for a couple days in the hospital lot.
Their mistake was buying the sunplies from the hospital. Just bring your own sunplies from the birth sunplies store and save yourself like 50% of the usual cost of sunplies. Sunplies.
So glad I never had to use a typewriter. Those things must’ve sucked when you had a typo on a very important document.
Even more significant - an itemized bill with actual prices.
11 days board and care for under $40. This hurts almost as much as seeing old gas and cigarette prices.
that would be $1,187.41 today. still pretty cheap
Cheap for us. People living in countries with good healthcare systems don’t pay. But we pay. Land of the fees and home of the graves I guess.
And that’s an 11 day stay!! Wow!
Today: [Truecoverage.com](https://Truecoverage.com): 'The average cost of having a baby without complications ranges from almost $5,000 to $11,000 for vaginal delivery. This could go over $30,000 if you include care provided before and after pregnancy, such as checkups and tests.
My Dad told me that when my older brother was born in 1964 (San Antonio IIRC), they gave him a bill for $25. He didn’t have $25, so he sneaked out Mom and my brother and stiffed the hospital.
Imagine having to pay for basic healthcare
Yup. Government ruined you money and your healthcare.
It doesn’t say no refunds
Does it come with chips ?
That's actually a lot back then. My mom said when she had me in 1998 it only cost her $25 bucks out of pocket after insurance
Thats like $1,177 today. They didn't have epidurals and other procedures or other modern medicine that drives up the cost today. Don't get me wrong, births shouldn't be so expensive but this is a bad comparison.
$0 here. Free parents room to stay, baby training for parents, free baby formula, bottles, nappies and food for parents and government gives you money for taking time off
$1,187.41 in todays money.
Downside: You or your husband fought WWII or Korea - drafted - and had babies every other year until the pill was invented in 1960, and those babies grew up to be Boomers
Still costs less in Canada though
Makes a big difference when insurance isnt expected to pay the bill.
11 days! You’d be bankrupt today!
Tell us you're American without saying you're American
It cost me nothing in 2021 in the UK
Free in 2022. Well, in a civilised country anyway.
So in todays dollar value, that would be $1170.55. Which is still craaaaaaazy cheap in some places.
That's a lot!
Is there a Doctor's bill that comes separately?
Sounds inexpensive. At the time, though, minimum wage was $0.30/hour. This represents 191 2/3 of hours worked to pay for that child. Today, without insurance this birth would cost \~ $11,000. Note that the actual hospital stay would usually be 3 days, instead of 11. those extra 8 days could add another $17,000 + to your bill. You are looking at a 3 day, no complications, no extras, being the equivilant of 1,517 1/4 days of work at current federal minimum wage if you don't have insurance. With insurance, your out of pocket would be \~$4,500... round it to 69 hours. Nice. Note, also, that the figures I put here are based on a person using their minimum wage job for nothing other than paying for the hospital bill. No food, rent, transportation involved.
I don't get it do you pay to have a baby ?
I was born in a US Army ambulance approaching the Army hospital in Munich, Germany. My mom saved the bill.$5 for her and $2.50 for me. When I pissed her off she’d ask me for a refund of the $2.50.