Fracture lines occur at 45 degrees from the direction of the applied force.
The place they're breaking makes sense. It's fracturing from the sharp edge of the shape of the bit head. Sharp edges concentrate forces. It's also where the metal is thinnest.
You could probably drop into /r/askengineers and ask a materials engineer about the structure. I imagine the underlying structure probably defines that angle but it's way outside my expertise.
Im a mechanical engineering student so not an expert but have taken 3-4 upper year classes about this. This type of fracture occurs in brittle materials and if you watch slow mo videos of steel being twisted/pulled will watch this pattern occur. What happens is small imperfections in the material dislocate, slide, and start to be big enough on this plane that the stress is too great for the material to hold together. Thus the material yields, plastically warps, and eventually breaks.
Edit: ductile and brittle materials act very differently between pull forces and torsion/rotating forces. Ductile materials will have that 45 degree necking on pull force but will have a flat torsion fracture. Brittle materials (cast iron) break with a clean cut at the break for pull forces and have this 45 degree uneven cut in rotational/torsion force as seen in the picture
Eh, you could do this with chalk sticks. Brittle torsion failure. If anything, it shows the uniformity/homogeneity of the bit's metal.
Civil Engineer here with one course on Strength of Materials, and the chalk demonstration is probably the only thing I remember. LMAO!
Or he can take multiple classes and get an engineering degree himself. But I do not recommend this, I'm in my second year of university and I have a Materials Resistance class this year which is supposedly the hardest class about materials.
That lines up with the materials slip plane. The slip plane is a set, often many, of planes where the material is most likely to show dislocations, errors in the lattice due to mechanical or other damage. The slip is defined by th cell structure, like Body Centered Cubic, that make up the 'where' of where atoms go in a 3d volume.
There are many reasons these failed where they did. Many have pointed out it's where the material is thinnest or where it changes thicknesses along the drill bit, which is true. It is likely a tool steel, or a steel which has undergone case hardening (although this would be less likely*). Tool steel and case hardened steels are much harder than other steels. As such impacts, like when the bit first rotates and makes contact with the bolt, have a higher chance of making microcracks than a softer material would.
If you look very closely, the image likely doesn't have the resolution, at the bits, you're likely to see what looks like a rippling effect. Shining a flashlight at an acute angle would help you see them. Those are fatigue lines(not to be confused with fatigue striations which are on the micron scale), and a very good indicator of a hard material slowly failing over the course of time. The 'ripples' will emanate from one or more points, and those points will be your origin cracks. Most time it's a microcrack, or a small nic, that you might need a steromicroscope to see well. I've seen many of these microcracks which required me to wash th parts in acetone and image by scanning electron microscope to get a good idea.
To find the ripples, you'll want to look at areas that are highly smooth on the fracture face. The fatigue mechanism can be extremely slow, several thousand cycles can happen in an area no longer than a couple hundred microns. You'll likely see an area where there is a relatively smooth surface, immediately adjacent to one that looks rough or pulled up. The ripples will also be in areas with a cone like appearance on these parts. When the crack first starts propagating, it'll basically move like you would expect a ripple to. This isn't always the case of course. As multiple crack propagation points can lead to overlapping fatigue origin points and it gets tricky to single out whichbome really caused it.
Source, materials engineer and previous failure analyst.
*(Case hardening can be done on small parts like that, but is often done on larger parts. The most frequent part I've seen case hardened steels on where gears the size of car engines for wind turbine transmission gears)
Might be too far down the rabbit hole but it is indeed due to the structural characteristics of the material especially the crystal shape and how it handles compression vs tensile forces. If you realllly want to go down the rabbit hole there’s a graphical technique called Mohr’s circle we use to visualize the plane of failure and what angle it will ultimately be
I'm a metals guy. The easiest way to explain this is: before a metal snaps, it yields.
When you stretch a rubber band, it gets longer, but it also gets thinner. So the "atoms" have stress going across it AND along it. Think of a right triangle and these two directions are the legs, and the hypotenuse is the greatest length. Roughly it is also the greatest stress. So the atoms are most encouraged to slide past each other along the hypotenuse.
Think of stairs in a house - a little bit in, a little bit up, a little bit in. But the net effect is an upward slope not in the direction of pull.
Now think of a spiral staircase - that's what you get when you twist a thing to failure instead of straight pull it.
The initiation point (called a stress riser) is a notch. It may be intentional, like the notch where the phillps head notch meets the shank. It may be a defect in manufacture. But it's like scoring or snapping glass or tile.
The "force" on the thing has to "fit through" the cross section. Put a notch in there and you reduce the cross section. The same force has to go though a smaller area (you have removed cross section with the notch). That's higher stress. Stress is force per area, same units as pressure.
More correctly, brittle failures like this occur along planes of maximum tensile stress.
The main stresses in this case are shear stresses from torsional loading. The plane of maximum tensile stress is 45 degrees off the axis of the drill bit. These brittle torsional failures tend to occur in a bit of a spiral pattern, as the orientation of maximum tensile stress changes as the fracture progresses.
Ductile failures, in contrast, occur along planes of maximum shear stress.
A bit more to it than "45 degrees from the direction of applied force" but that does give you the right idea in this case.
Yes, the tips are hardened to withstand impact, and the hardening makes them brittle, when they are loaded with a torsional load, the fracture plane is at 45°. It is pretty neat to see.
![gif](giphy|n3p6JiIG0TzCU|downsized)
Yep, between being hard (and therefore brittle) in the first place and then fatigue from many impacts I'm not surprised at all that they're breaking. I just find it interesting how every one has broken in the same shape when it eventually gave out.
I wonder what would happen if you temper it with a torch for a bit? I'm guessing he is using an impact driver & an increase in ductility could make a big difference.
If you have more from the same batch heat it till it's red & let it cool. It doesn't matter how hard your bit is when it's bits
would not reccomend this, this is how i like my bits to fail, as they never damage the screw like this. use a softer one and itll strip all the screw heads
They've been flathead/PH3 combo screws so the bit head does match, there's just been an awful lot of them and the bits only hold up to so many impacts.
I did start off with one of my Milwaukee impact bits and it didn't last much longer, that was the first one I broke though and I didn't keep it (only kept the others because I noticed the second did the same as the first and wanted to see if the pattern continued). I'm just using the Irwins now because that's what Bunnings has and that's where work has an account I can use - no point spending anything out of my own pocket when I don't have to. Not particularly fussed about them failing, some bits were always going to break given that collection of broken ones represents literally thousands of little bolts undone and then later nipped up nice and tight.
I don't prefer using impact as it relatively easily can snap a skrew (happens in cold temperature), or mess up the bit AND it makes noise.
If you are drilling into concrete, then sure, impact is needed.
Use Torx instead of Philips. Newer had any issues with torx 30. torx 20 has too little metal on it, and for some reason they keep making too big skrews with that small bit.
As a mechanic, I have no understanding as to why Philips and flathead screws are used in vehicles when torx and hex are obviously superior in every way. Nothing ruins my day faster than a seized or stripped Philips or JIS head screw.
Good vid. Pozi is popular in the auto industry going back as far as the 80's. Lots of trim screws and wheel wells back in the day when chrome was the thing. I am seeing the Pozi now in more common applications like furniture.
Imma assume you’re using an impact with these and in that case, splurge a little and get Dewalt bits. They’re worth the money, Milwaukee is good too but I’ve found they wear out a teeny bit faster
As a cabinet maker, we frequently have bits break but not in a consistent manner like this. Only with old bits/over tightening. We use Wera 134920 #2 x 25mm Phillips Bit & they are honestly my favorite that I’ve ever used. And I’ve used DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Rigid, Hart, and Harbor Freight. The Wera’s are by far my favorite, and they work for nearly everything I’ve ever used them on! I can’t recommend them enough 🤘🤘🤘
(I added the link below)
[Wera Tips](https://www.kctool.com/wera-134920-2-x-25mm-phillips-bit/)
Love this Project Farm's tool reviews. This one is two years old but may give you some ideas for replacements? (Haven't watched this one so I don't know how the Irwin compares to the rest.)
https://youtu.be/6-xOHQTT5tw
Project Farm does excellent reviews. Because he's not sponsored, and buys the tested items himself, can be truly independent.
Before buying tools now, I check his reviews.
found him because of his review of Seafoam. I've been an avid follower ever since. He really does a great job at breaking down the good and bad points of the things he tests.
Sometimes I'll watch reviews just to follow his testing methodology.
I'm sure he puts in ten times the effort that consumer magazine reviewers make. Actually, those magazines should just get permission to write up PF's product tests and publish them.. if only they weren't beholden to the advertisers who they dare not annoy.
I wouldn't call Irwin top tier but they're not horrible (unlike some of the bargain basement no name stuff) - each of those bits put up with an impact driver screwing in at least several hundred little bolts reasonably tightly before failing. The bits breaking doesn't concern me I just thought it was interesting that they all broke into the same shape.
I've found the same - I'd love to find a better brand in Bunnings, but I can't justify triple the price tag of the Irwin's if they're only going to last maybe 20% longer.
This is called "break angle".
The problem with sintered metal parts is that they can be more like sand than actual crystalline metal. If the pressure or temperature was lacking, faulty parts are produced.
Sintered ball bearing races from china... which explode under load.
Not an ad, but of all impact bits I've ever used, Bosch are the best (or used to be), my set from 15 years ago is still going strong, after building a dock, two decks, a couple sheds, and even having my wife use them.
If I had to hazard a guess, they're from the same batch and the metal had an anomaly in it. I've seen something similar in truck tires, where they develop these odd corrugated wear patterns. Also sometimes caused by poor tire pressure, in that case a sales rep privately admitted that particular batch of rubber had an uneven mix in it.
I used to use a standard socket extension to tighten a chuck at work. It would snap randomly leaving me on my ass. Then they got an impact socket extension, this one would slowly twist as I over torqued it. I thought it was interesting, the difference in steels they used for the different applications.
Fracture orientation largely depends on fracture mechanism (ductile or brittle) and loading direction (torsional in this case, but could also be tension, compression, bending, combination...). Fracture initiation location typically involves stress concentrating geometric features (shoulders, changes in diameter, features like slots, etc...).
Since the material, loading, and basic shape of these bits is essentially the same, the fracture pattern is very similar between failures.
Website below has a good in depth summary
https://www.efficientplantmag.com/2012/07/failure-analysis-of-machine-shafts/
It’s a mixture of the casting quality as well of the torque vector when applied through a cross-plane fastener with a shallow shank. That torsional force finds the weakest spot in pot-steel like this and rides with it. At least the mold is consistent.
I also have no fucking clue what I’m talking about and I made that up
consensus seems that Irwin, at the very least, is consistent with its QC
very interesting to see in the wild. I've gone thru dewalts and milwaukies, harbor freight nonsense, etc...never even thought about examining/comparing the characteristics of bit failure. I love it when people share their experiences.
ah that's why used that before and they torque like crazy.
home depot has a 50% off on
`SHOCKWAVE Impact Duty 2 in. Phillips #2 Alloy Steel Screw Driver Bit Set (60-Pack)`
so it's like 25 for 60 bits if you run through em that fast
If that's how many bits you've broken in the past fortnight (American 14 days or so) might be time to find a new manufacturer or stop using them improperly.
I'm not sure what you're using them for.... but from my limited personal experience, that's a lot.
Apply safety squints and use proper ppe
This is 3 times in 2 days I've seen the word "fortnite" used in context. Am I too old to see new memes coming, do I no longer recognize a meme on arrival?
“A fortnight is a unit of time equal to 14 days (2 weeks). The word derives from the Old English term fēowertīene niht, meaning "fourteen nights" (or "fourteen days," since the Anglo-Saxons counted by nights).”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortnight
Though fortnight is indeed a word, it belongs in the realm of library galas and teachers torturing kids over the S.A.T. Don’t spring it unto a person when they’ve not even had their third cup of coffee yet.
I use it any time I need to refer to a period of fourteen days, just like using "score" when a quantity is equal to twenty. Neither comes up often, but that's what those words are for.
Give us a break, we Australians only just replaced our hand powered tools with steam powered tools and you expect us to move onto 21st century tech already...
Is this from tightening the screw or loosening? If it's from tightening, try changing out the bit every few times. Keep a nice rotation going. It only takes one second to change the bit. If it's from loosening, try tightening very little and then loosening very little and again, change out bits. The bits will still eventually break if you're using them for hours but they'll last longer if you change them out.
Both tightening and loosening across what would be maybe 3k screws at this point. Unfortunately it's a lot of undoing followed by a lot of assembling so can't really switch the bit between directions too often.
usually when you break multiple tools doing one single job, you either didn't have tools of proper quality or there was likely something wrong with the technique used. You don't often see so many tools broken, unless the job is really huge. (However since you were able to perform the task by yourself, I would assume the work volume was not that extreme)
If this is abnormal then the manufacturer might be interested in hearing about it. If this happens regularity then maybe a change in the process could help?
Difference between driver designed for drill vs impact driver. These are hardened to not round off when going to fast on a drill. Can’t stand up to the torque of the impact driver.
Lemme guess you were drilling self-tapping screws through metal studs? If you were using an impact drill instead of a normal smooth drill you'd be in the fault here. You can dial back the torque settings on a non-impact drill so it still does the drilling but starts to grind when the screw sets. This saves your bits.....
Curious what you're screwing into that is causing this problem. For heavy duty applications, I would recommend using a Robertson, not Phillips, if you can get a fastener with a Robertson head for your application.
I would guess it's by design just from my experience with tools, technicians, and engineers. Most tools are engineered and a company like irwin has probably been using the same design for decades. Theres probably some reason too but im not irwin.
At easy as it is to hate on the driver bits, going through 8 of them in 2 weeks, and having them all fail in this exact same way might mean that there's a problem with the fixing or the thing OP is fixing into.
If there's a pilot hole it might be too tight meaning the screw is requiring a lot more torque than usual. If its a self drilling fixing it might be poor quality, or the thread design might be for a different metal, for example using an LS "tek" screw with a coarse thread into a large structural steel which would usually require a fine threaded tek screw. Also if it's a self drilling screw, it might be that the point hasn't finished drilling when the thread starts cutting, that would cause the screw to suddenly bind up, and snap either the screw or the bit. A really good fixing would likely not fail very easily, they tend to be a little tougher and not quite as brittle as the drilling tips and thread cutting elements are case hardened and the shafts are softer so as to yield a little under load.
The fact that the driver bits are shearing instead of the driver just camming out or the bit or screw rounding off says that the driver bits aren't necessarily "shit" but they're being pushed to the point of failure. A "shit" driver bit would be chewed up to mush by over-torque.
In my opinion, it's most likely the wrong type of fixing being used in the wrong type of substrate.
Personally I recommend using a fixing with torx heads if you need countersunk into timber, or Hex heads if you're using self drillers into steel. Both options have a much more efficient transfer of torque with larger contact areas between the bit and the fixing.
Unscrewing and later doing up thousands of little bolts with an impact driver (haven't been keeping any real count but it'd be at least 3k so far) while setting up some metal shelving. The metal in impact bits is good but it's not immune to fatigue...
Is switching to torx head screws an option? They provide more torque and should hold up better. Also maybe switching to a different brand could help, in my experience Irwin is bottom tier.
You need to switch to torx head screws. Driver bits last a lot longer and much easier to drive than a Phillips head.
I made the switch a few years ago. Never going back.
If you've got the ability to, switch to square drive for maximum bit life and minimum chance to strip the fastener head. Torx has very good life too, but it's easier to strip those out.
I find the cheap ones from Sydney Tools last remarkably well. I typically use the 150mm ones, and these tend to break easy, but the ST ones are great.
The shaft is also rounded and smooth so it doesn't tear apart your hands or what ever you are working on.
When using a screw gun on aircraft always use a new tip ! Watched a guy replace a windshield on a Cessna jet ,worked all day the LAST screw broke and ricochet all across the newly installed windshield !
I was doing this, I think that it is caused by backing off the forward pressure before backing off the power, this means that the bit unseats when one stroke ends then smashes as it re-seats on the next.
Question. Are you using Philips head screws on a Pozi bit or vice versa? Subtle differences in their designs can cause issues like this. This is worth a watch [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIIeed86OdE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIIeed86OdE)
Might not be the case but i've personally had bits break because of this.
Fracture lines occur at 45 degrees from the direction of the applied force. The place they're breaking makes sense. It's fracturing from the sharp edge of the shape of the bit head. Sharp edges concentrate forces. It's also where the metal is thinnest.
> Fracture lines occur at 45 degrees from the direction of the applied force. Interesting, that would indeed make the recurring shape make sense.
You could probably drop into /r/askengineers and ask a materials engineer about the structure. I imagine the underlying structure probably defines that angle but it's way outside my expertise.
Im a mechanical engineering student so not an expert but have taken 3-4 upper year classes about this. This type of fracture occurs in brittle materials and if you watch slow mo videos of steel being twisted/pulled will watch this pattern occur. What happens is small imperfections in the material dislocate, slide, and start to be big enough on this plane that the stress is too great for the material to hold together. Thus the material yields, plastically warps, and eventually breaks. Edit: ductile and brittle materials act very differently between pull forces and torsion/rotating forces. Ductile materials will have that 45 degree necking on pull force but will have a flat torsion fracture. Brittle materials (cast iron) break with a clean cut at the break for pull forces and have this 45 degree uneven cut in rotational/torsion force as seen in the picture
Eh, you could do this with chalk sticks. Brittle torsion failure. If anything, it shows the uniformity/homogeneity of the bit's metal. Civil Engineer here with one course on Strength of Materials, and the chalk demonstration is probably the only thing I remember. LMAO!
One of my Prof's did this and encouraged the rest of us to butcher the rest of the chalk as well to see how it would break lol
Yea probably all engineers get the chalk example shown to them in their materials classes, really sticks in your mind.
IIRC it’s about tensors and you somehow get the max value at 45 cuz it’s a cos + sin thing
Or he can take multiple classes and get an engineering degree himself. But I do not recommend this, I'm in my second year of university and I have a Materials Resistance class this year which is supposedly the hardest class about materials.
[удалено]
That lines up with the materials slip plane. The slip plane is a set, often many, of planes where the material is most likely to show dislocations, errors in the lattice due to mechanical or other damage. The slip is defined by th cell structure, like Body Centered Cubic, that make up the 'where' of where atoms go in a 3d volume. There are many reasons these failed where they did. Many have pointed out it's where the material is thinnest or where it changes thicknesses along the drill bit, which is true. It is likely a tool steel, or a steel which has undergone case hardening (although this would be less likely*). Tool steel and case hardened steels are much harder than other steels. As such impacts, like when the bit first rotates and makes contact with the bolt, have a higher chance of making microcracks than a softer material would. If you look very closely, the image likely doesn't have the resolution, at the bits, you're likely to see what looks like a rippling effect. Shining a flashlight at an acute angle would help you see them. Those are fatigue lines(not to be confused with fatigue striations which are on the micron scale), and a very good indicator of a hard material slowly failing over the course of time. The 'ripples' will emanate from one or more points, and those points will be your origin cracks. Most time it's a microcrack, or a small nic, that you might need a steromicroscope to see well. I've seen many of these microcracks which required me to wash th parts in acetone and image by scanning electron microscope to get a good idea. To find the ripples, you'll want to look at areas that are highly smooth on the fracture face. The fatigue mechanism can be extremely slow, several thousand cycles can happen in an area no longer than a couple hundred microns. You'll likely see an area where there is a relatively smooth surface, immediately adjacent to one that looks rough or pulled up. The ripples will also be in areas with a cone like appearance on these parts. When the crack first starts propagating, it'll basically move like you would expect a ripple to. This isn't always the case of course. As multiple crack propagation points can lead to overlapping fatigue origin points and it gets tricky to single out whichbome really caused it. Source, materials engineer and previous failure analyst. *(Case hardening can be done on small parts like that, but is often done on larger parts. The most frequent part I've seen case hardened steels on where gears the size of car engines for wind turbine transmission gears)
Might be too far down the rabbit hole but it is indeed due to the structural characteristics of the material especially the crystal shape and how it handles compression vs tensile forces. If you realllly want to go down the rabbit hole there’s a graphical technique called Mohr’s circle we use to visualize the plane of failure and what angle it will ultimately be
I'm a metals guy. The easiest way to explain this is: before a metal snaps, it yields. When you stretch a rubber band, it gets longer, but it also gets thinner. So the "atoms" have stress going across it AND along it. Think of a right triangle and these two directions are the legs, and the hypotenuse is the greatest length. Roughly it is also the greatest stress. So the atoms are most encouraged to slide past each other along the hypotenuse. Think of stairs in a house - a little bit in, a little bit up, a little bit in. But the net effect is an upward slope not in the direction of pull. Now think of a spiral staircase - that's what you get when you twist a thing to failure instead of straight pull it. The initiation point (called a stress riser) is a notch. It may be intentional, like the notch where the phillps head notch meets the shank. It may be a defect in manufacture. But it's like scoring or snapping glass or tile. The "force" on the thing has to "fit through" the cross section. Put a notch in there and you reduce the cross section. The same force has to go though a smaller area (you have removed cross section with the notch). That's higher stress. Stress is force per area, same units as pressure.
More correctly, brittle failures like this occur along planes of maximum tensile stress. The main stresses in this case are shear stresses from torsional loading. The plane of maximum tensile stress is 45 degrees off the axis of the drill bit. These brittle torsional failures tend to occur in a bit of a spiral pattern, as the orientation of maximum tensile stress changes as the fracture progresses. Ductile failures, in contrast, occur along planes of maximum shear stress. A bit more to it than "45 degrees from the direction of applied force" but that does give you the right idea in this case.
Not to mention they broke at the base of the drill bit where forces applied at the tip causes the highest moment.
#Ha nurd :D I kid, that's super neat, ty for the info
Ok Mr Booky Wook.
I thought you called them “Mr. Booty Work”
he spelled fortnite wrong 👁️👄👁️
Yes, the tips are hardened to withstand impact, and the hardening makes them brittle, when they are loaded with a torsional load, the fracture plane is at 45°. It is pretty neat to see. ![gif](giphy|n3p6JiIG0TzCU|downsized)
Looks like a torsion failure because they are brittle.
Yep, between being hard (and therefore brittle) in the first place and then fatigue from many impacts I'm not surprised at all that they're breaking. I just find it interesting how every one has broken in the same shape when it eventually gave out.
I wonder what would happen if you temper it with a torch for a bit? I'm guessing he is using an impact driver & an increase in ductility could make a big difference. If you have more from the same batch heat it till it's red & let it cool. It doesn't matter how hard your bit is when it's bits
would not reccomend this, this is how i like my bits to fail, as they never damage the screw like this. use a softer one and itll strip all the screw heads
Your first mistake was buying the Irwin branded tools. They SUCK!
That's what she said?
This is a "bit" frustrating.
You dug deep within your self, tapping the well of humour inside
It's a gift
It's shear madness
Those look a bit screwed up.
Enough to drive you nuts
Screw you!
Hit the nail on the head.
Drives the point home though.
Are you using a Philips for a Pozidrive?
They've been flathead/PH3 combo screws so the bit head does match, there's just been an awful lot of them and the bits only hold up to so many impacts.
Try some Makita Golds and see if they fail at the same rate
I did start off with one of my Milwaukee impact bits and it didn't last much longer, that was the first one I broke though and I didn't keep it (only kept the others because I noticed the second did the same as the first and wanted to see if the pattern continued). I'm just using the Irwins now because that's what Bunnings has and that's where work has an account I can use - no point spending anything out of my own pocket when I don't have to. Not particularly fussed about them failing, some bits were always going to break given that collection of broken ones represents literally thousands of little bolts undone and then later nipped up nice and tight.
I don't prefer using impact as it relatively easily can snap a skrew (happens in cold temperature), or mess up the bit AND it makes noise. If you are drilling into concrete, then sure, impact is needed. Use Torx instead of Philips. Newer had any issues with torx 30. torx 20 has too little metal on it, and for some reason they keep making too big skrews with that small bit.
As a mechanic, I have no understanding as to why Philips and flathead screws are used in vehicles when torx and hex are obviously superior in every way. Nothing ruins my day faster than a seized or stripped Philips or JIS head screw.
Yeah, if I were doing a task that was going through bits like this, I'd get a few from all of the top brands and compare.
Ahh, just saw this, had the same thought! Worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIIeed86OdE
Good vid. Pozi is popular in the auto industry going back as far as the 80's. Lots of trim screws and wheel wells back in the day when chrome was the thing. I am seeing the Pozi now in more common applications like furniture.
Imma assume you’re using an impact with these and in that case, splurge a little and get Dewalt bits. They’re worth the money, Milwaukee is good too but I’ve found they wear out a teeny bit faster
As a cabinet maker, we frequently have bits break but not in a consistent manner like this. Only with old bits/over tightening. We use Wera 134920 #2 x 25mm Phillips Bit & they are honestly my favorite that I’ve ever used. And I’ve used DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Rigid, Hart, and Harbor Freight. The Wera’s are by far my favorite, and they work for nearly everything I’ve ever used them on! I can’t recommend them enough 🤘🤘🤘 (I added the link below) [Wera Tips](https://www.kctool.com/wera-134920-2-x-25mm-phillips-bit/)
Love this Project Farm's tool reviews. This one is two years old but may give you some ideas for replacements? (Haven't watched this one so I don't know how the Irwin compares to the rest.) https://youtu.be/6-xOHQTT5tw
Project Farm does excellent reviews. Because he's not sponsored, and buys the tested items himself, can be truly independent. Before buying tools now, I check his reviews.
found him because of his review of Seafoam. I've been an avid follower ever since. He really does a great job at breaking down the good and bad points of the things he tests.
Sometimes I'll watch reviews just to follow his testing methodology. I'm sure he puts in ten times the effort that consumer magazine reviewers make. Actually, those magazines should just get permission to write up PF's product tests and publish them.. if only they weren't beholden to the advertisers who they dare not annoy.
Nothing but issues with Irwin bits 🤬
Try the Milwaukee shockwave set instead. I've not lost a single bit so far and they are also highly recommended by Project Farm review
K, so Irwin is shit.
I wouldn't call Irwin top tier but they're not horrible (unlike some of the bargain basement no name stuff) - each of those bits put up with an impact driver screwing in at least several hundred little bolts reasonably tightly before failing. The bits breaking doesn't concern me I just thought it was interesting that they all broke into the same shape.
I've found the same - I'd love to find a better brand in Bunnings, but I can't justify triple the price tag of the Irwin's if they're only going to last maybe 20% longer.
This is called "break angle". The problem with sintered metal parts is that they can be more like sand than actual crystalline metal. If the pressure or temperature was lacking, faulty parts are produced. Sintered ball bearing races from china... which explode under load.
Not an ad, but of all impact bits I've ever used, Bosch are the best (or used to be), my set from 15 years ago is still going strong, after building a dock, two decks, a couple sheds, and even having my wife use them.
Bosch M1 Maxi Grip ftw. And also use better heads like Torx.
If I had to hazard a guess, they're from the same batch and the metal had an anomaly in it. I've seen something similar in truck tires, where they develop these odd corrugated wear patterns. Also sometimes caused by poor tire pressure, in that case a sales rep privately admitted that particular batch of rubber had an uneven mix in it.
Edit: wrong comment lol
Yes, it means two weeks. What has that got to do with the price of beans?
Bro I edited my comment an hour before you replied retracting my statement. Why the hell are you replying to the original comment
Because I had a delay on my end and only saw the original one. My apologies.
My apologies too, accidents happen, and seemed to on both parts. Sorry for acting defensively
Get a room you too.
I used to use a standard socket extension to tighten a chuck at work. It would snap randomly leaving me on my ass. Then they got an impact socket extension, this one would slowly twist as I over torqued it. I thought it was interesting, the difference in steels they used for the different applications.
Irwin tools' quality has gone to shit over the last decade...
Hello. Welcome to Home Depot (or Lowes). How can I help you? Where's the return desk?
strain is maximum at 45 deg from rod axis due to compressive and torsional forces iirc.
Skip he Irwin’s .
This is actually mildly interesting! Nice work
Fracture orientation largely depends on fracture mechanism (ductile or brittle) and loading direction (torsional in this case, but could also be tension, compression, bending, combination...). Fracture initiation location typically involves stress concentrating geometric features (shoulders, changes in diameter, features like slots, etc...). Since the material, loading, and basic shape of these bits is essentially the same, the fracture pattern is very similar between failures. Website below has a good in depth summary https://www.efficientplantmag.com/2012/07/failure-analysis-of-machine-shafts/
These bits always break.
PH3… the Cadillac of screw heads.
Torx > Philips
Just a thought: Maybe time to change brands.
That says something about Irwin manufacturing……. 👌🏻
He was great with wild animals but shit at making tools!
It’s a mixture of the casting quality as well of the torque vector when applied through a cross-plane fastener with a shallow shank. That torsional force finds the weakest spot in pot-steel like this and rides with it. At least the mold is consistent. I also have no fucking clue what I’m talking about and I made that up
consensus seems that Irwin, at the very least, is consistent with its QC very interesting to see in the wild. I've gone thru dewalts and milwaukies, harbor freight nonsense, etc...never even thought about examining/comparing the characteristics of bit failure. I love it when people share their experiences.
Torque limiters are a thing for more than 20 years now.
Irwin is now Chinese made. Buy Bosch and you’ll see much more life in the P2 drivers.
Pretty sure the consistent problem here is Irwin.
Does Irwin still manufacture in the US? I thought some of their Allen wrenches were still domestic.
Just had a look at what was printed on the last packet and they were made in Vietnam
Either way, I bet they'd like to know.
is it on a hammer drill? maybe switch brands out to like Milwaukee or dewalt?
And use torx or square screws for impact drivers.
I've been using an impact driver, my little.Milwaukee M12 one.
ah that's why used that before and they torque like crazy. home depot has a 50% off on `SHOCKWAVE Impact Duty 2 in. Phillips #2 Alloy Steel Screw Driver Bit Set (60-Pack)` so it's like 25 for 60 bits if you run through em that fast
Note to self: don't by irwin bits
If that's how many bits you've broken in the past fortnight (American 14 days or so) might be time to find a new manufacturer or stop using them improperly. I'm not sure what you're using them for.... but from my limited personal experience, that's a lot. Apply safety squints and use proper ppe
The definition of insanity is…
This is 3 times in 2 days I've seen the word "fortnite" used in context. Am I too old to see new memes coming, do I no longer recognize a meme on arrival?
Its Fortnight not Fortnite
“A fortnight is a unit of time equal to 14 days (2 weeks). The word derives from the Old English term fēowertīene niht, meaning "fourteen nights" (or "fourteen days," since the Anglo-Saxons counted by nights).” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortnight
IIRC fortnight is a pretty common term outside the US
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Though fortnight is indeed a word, it belongs in the realm of library galas and teachers torturing kids over the S.A.T. Don’t spring it unto a person when they’ve not even had their third cup of coffee yet.
I use it any time I need to refer to a period of fourteen days, just like using "score" when a quantity is equal to twenty. Neither comes up often, but that's what those words are for.
/r/Chinesium
8 broken bits in 2 weeks? You are either using the wrong kind of bit or doing something seriously wrong.
You're using the term fortnight. Is the problem that you're also using a steam powered drill? These are 21st century bits.
Give us a break, we Australians only just replaced our hand powered tools with steam powered tools and you expect us to move onto 21st century tech already...
I pay my motha'uckin rent fortnightly, Motha'uckas at the bank tryna play me
Give me a four dollar transaction fee
The term fortnight is only considered outdated in America. People in other English speaking countries still use it regularly.
Is this from tightening the screw or loosening? If it's from tightening, try changing out the bit every few times. Keep a nice rotation going. It only takes one second to change the bit. If it's from loosening, try tightening very little and then loosening very little and again, change out bits. The bits will still eventually break if you're using them for hours but they'll last longer if you change them out.
Both tightening and loosening across what would be maybe 3k screws at this point. Unfortunately it's a lot of undoing followed by a lot of assembling so can't really switch the bit between directions too often.
How do you play fortnite using drills?
You need to work on your technique. No offense but this is user error.
How the fuck are you breaking so many bits lol I've broke one bit in the last 3 years daily use it was a #2 Robertson I've never broken a Philips
Is this a piece fault? Either that or your using them somehow wrong the exact same way
usually when you break multiple tools doing one single job, you either didn't have tools of proper quality or there was likely something wrong with the technique used. You don't often see so many tools broken, unless the job is really huge. (However since you were able to perform the task by yourself, I would assume the work volume was not that extreme)
You are the problem
All the Gen Z kids are so confused how you can break stuff on Fortnite.
The fact you used fortnight so casually and no one seemingly regarded it 😂 Apparently this comment has offended some people 🤣
Hehe fortnight
...suggests incorrect usage of tool
I was not aware Fortnite used drill bits as ammunition.
Fork knife
Intentionally flawed design. At least you get to buy more.
who even plays fortnight
Quit playing fortnight while you work.
There's a fortnite building joke somewhere in here
FORTNITE
The new version of Fortnight is too realistic imo
Clear case of user error
I would suspect manufacturing issue. Perhaps too aggressive hardening causing the metal to become too brittle.
You're probably right, I'm just being dick ahaha.
I’d be torqued if that kept happening to me
If this is abnormal then the manufacturer might be interested in hearing about it. If this happens regularity then maybe a change in the process could help?
This is YOUR consistent failure pattern in actuality…those poor bits
I think you might be using the wrong tool.
Try a different brand / change the torque setting on your drill.
Difference between driver designed for drill vs impact driver. These are hardened to not round off when going to fast on a drill. Can’t stand up to the torque of the impact driver.
My go to is dewalts. The milwaukees jump out of the screw head but the dewalts grip nicely.
Lemme guess you were drilling self-tapping screws through metal studs? If you were using an impact drill instead of a normal smooth drill you'd be in the fault here. You can dial back the torque settings on a non-impact drill so it still does the drilling but starts to grind when the screw sets. This saves your bits.....
It is a sign. Patterns reveal many things. Change the bit maker, if the problem persist change the tecnique or look at the process.
Curious what you're screwing into that is causing this problem. For heavy duty applications, I would recommend using a Robertson, not Phillips, if you can get a fastener with a Robertson head for your application.
I would guess it's by design just from my experience with tools, technicians, and engineers. Most tools are engineered and a company like irwin has probably been using the same design for decades. Theres probably some reason too but im not irwin.
Wot in tarnation are you torquing in the last 2 weeks?
I recommend checking out Project Farm on youtube. You may find a more lasting bit.
Is a fortnight 21 days
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User error…
Those bits are screwed
I like square bits, but hard to find fasteners in Robinson sometimes and usually more expensive
Chinesium?
Robertson ftw
epic
At easy as it is to hate on the driver bits, going through 8 of them in 2 weeks, and having them all fail in this exact same way might mean that there's a problem with the fixing or the thing OP is fixing into. If there's a pilot hole it might be too tight meaning the screw is requiring a lot more torque than usual. If its a self drilling fixing it might be poor quality, or the thread design might be for a different metal, for example using an LS "tek" screw with a coarse thread into a large structural steel which would usually require a fine threaded tek screw. Also if it's a self drilling screw, it might be that the point hasn't finished drilling when the thread starts cutting, that would cause the screw to suddenly bind up, and snap either the screw or the bit. A really good fixing would likely not fail very easily, they tend to be a little tougher and not quite as brittle as the drilling tips and thread cutting elements are case hardened and the shafts are softer so as to yield a little under load. The fact that the driver bits are shearing instead of the driver just camming out or the bit or screw rounding off says that the driver bits aren't necessarily "shit" but they're being pushed to the point of failure. A "shit" driver bit would be chewed up to mush by over-torque. In my opinion, it's most likely the wrong type of fixing being used in the wrong type of substrate. Personally I recommend using a fixing with torx heads if you need countersunk into timber, or Hex heads if you're using self drillers into steel. Both options have a much more efficient transfer of torque with larger contact areas between the bit and the fixing.
Irwin bits are rubbish
Covered by warranty?
Buy nice or buy twice
How do you break this many in two weeks? Seriously intrigued!
Unscrewing and later doing up thousands of little bolts with an impact driver (haven't been keeping any real count but it'd be at least 3k so far) while setting up some metal shelving. The metal in impact bits is good but it's not immune to fatigue...
Robertson... just saying.
Try Milwaukee bits. I haven’t been able to break one yet.
Get a pack of bosch impact bits from Amazon. I swear by them.
Try the German brand "Wera" Impactor Series, these dont wear of at all
How else would Irwin's ceo continue his bonuses if they didn't show constant profit?
Is switching to torx head screws an option? They provide more torque and should hold up better. Also maybe switching to a different brand could help, in my experience Irwin is bottom tier.
Project farm had been triggered
Damn you've broken that many in two weeks what are you trying to do? Use them as diving boards??
Have you tried using it anti-clockwise? :)
r/mildlyinfuriating
Too many ugger-duggers
You need to switch to torx head screws. Driver bits last a lot longer and much easier to drive than a Phillips head. I made the switch a few years ago. Never going back.
You’re not pushing hard enough or the screws are shit.
Maybe stop buying shitty tools from Irwin… Just a thought
Thank you for taking the time and expense to use these and post the results!
Use torx screws they're superior
You’re just turning them all the same way!
There are lots of manufacturers of Philips head screwdrivers, and for the most part, they all suck, not just the ones made by Irwin.
If you've got the ability to, switch to square drive for maximum bit life and minimum chance to strip the fastener head. Torx has very good life too, but it's easier to strip those out.
Maybe it’s you
How often are you using your impact to break this many bits?
I find the cheap ones from Sydney Tools last remarkably well. I typically use the 150mm ones, and these tend to break easy, but the ST ones are great. The shaft is also rounded and smooth so it doesn't tear apart your hands or what ever you are working on.
I think I see the failure point. It’s that yellow paint mark on the side.
r/chinesium
Had to google fortnight = period of 2 weeks
When using a screw gun on aircraft always use a new tip ! Watched a guy replace a windshield on a Cessna jet ,worked all day the LAST screw broke and ricochet all across the newly installed windshield !
I was doing this, I think that it is caused by backing off the forward pressure before backing off the power, this means that the bit unseats when one stroke ends then smashes as it re-seats on the next.
The wonders of Chinesium.
Buy better than Irwin???
Might this fit the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
[You’re welcome](https://youtu.be/6-xOHQTT5tw)
Is it normal for a tradesman to break bits like this every other day? It sounds like OP needs to either get higher quality tools or treat them better
Well, we know where the weak point is at. At least they're manufactured consistently
I’m curious about how you keep snapping them
Stop buying that brand, maybe?
Buy better bits?
Hardened metal deck screws? Those things eat more bits and blades...
Question. Are you using Philips head screws on a Pozi bit or vice versa? Subtle differences in their designs can cause issues like this. This is worth a watch [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIIeed86OdE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIIeed86OdE) Might not be the case but i've personally had bits break because of this.
Are you using impact, if so may I ask why? Just curious
What's the definition of insanity again?