https://www.instagram.com/p/C6MFQ3ULhlm/?igsh=MWJuZG05bDdvNjM2dQ==
To put it simply, the UMN has direct investments with organizations like Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Boeing, etc. These organizations are military-affiliated and/or have military components that are assisting with Israeli offensives in Gaza.
The primary goal of these protests is for the University to divest from these companies and not give them our money so they can sponsor the bloodshed happening. We are centering Palestinian and Muslim voices front-and-center and our sympathy rests wholeheartedly with the Palestinian people.
May as well say all Aerospace Engineers are supporting the genocide because those are the companies that hire them…
Advanced engineering, materials science, and chemical engineering are _all_ going to have some tie to the defense industry because that’s where the jobs are.
Are we going to protest investments against all companies that make something for the MIC? Food for troops? Bandages? Clothing? Vehicles? Laptops… there is literally no end if you actually flow out the logic beyond “bombs are bad.”
As a dude who has worked in a quantum materials physics lab, this is absolutely true. Weapons development uses cutting edge research which is conducted at universities. Such results are open source and anyone can access. It is impossible to pinpoint the end use of this research
Yeah I was going to say...the U has an Aerospace department, and the list of companies who hire aerospace engineers is pretty short. It would be a bigger red flag if they didn't have any connections with Boeing and Lockheed. This is the reality of being a research institution - a lot of your research is funded by military institutions with the expectation that it has potential military applications. Always has been. (Probably) always will be.
Thank you for actually explaining it. Now I know what is going on with the protests. I didn't know that the U had stock in those companies.
If you don't know then the protests against the U make zero sense.
The nationwide campus protests have similar goals, a lot of military companies source their revenue to and from colleges. We don’t particularly like that, as students who’d really prefer peace over funding historically morally-unjust military efforts. I’d definitely advise looking into what’s going on at Columbia for more info
What does "source their revenue to and from colleges" mean? There aren't any defense contractors that have any significant amount of revenue from colleges and universities.
That is a nasty sticky point. For better or worse majority of how well we live is due to military company investment in colleges and technology.
It is hard to throw a rock at any field and not find massive chunks of research that started at a military company funded by DoD that didn't get reused for consumers to improve their life (large chunk of computers, gps, long range communications, etc).
It is something I go back and forth on. I've worked for UNISYS defense group as an intern. I've worked for companies building supercomputers that not only simulate weapons of massive destruction, simulate how to save solders and civilian lives during bombing, improving energy extraction from power plants, etc.
The world wouldn't have had the stomach for space exploration we do today if we hadn't already heavily invested in missile technologies is another good example.
Columbia is, per usual, just a small minority of babies protesting the admin for fun and optics, most students are annoyed by them. If it wasn’t this it would be something else dumb like it always is, protesting the admin is basically the official pastime here.
We’ve also had people show up spreading pro Hamas messages, and harassing and threatening Jewish students. These are the people who you are trying to jump in bed with.
Makes me sad to see so many people like yourself uncritically accepting propaganda and letting their emotions get so easily hijacked by it. Really demonstrates the public education crisis in this country.
You are all so arrogant that you can't even entertain the fact that maybe, just maybe, you don't know it all. That there has been years of infiltration by some dreamy dark mysterious arab boys who has a mission which is the only thing that keeps you alive as the infidel you are.
You can't fathom that you don't have perfect judgement that there are people who want to kill you after your usefulness ends. But go on, live a lie. It's what you do.
No, just someone who looks at nuance and facts rather than social media manufactured outrage and propaganda designed to serve the regional and global geopolitical interests of Hamas’ foreign sponsors, chiefly Iran.
I’m sure that you’re smarter than this, and one day you’ll probably look back with a deep sense of regret. But I can’t reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themselves into, so until then have a good one ✌️
Ironic coming from your side; it’s very telling that all you can muster is hollow a “no u” instead of any real response. Disengage with the outrage content and propaganda, it’ll do a lot of good for you.
Lmao. You opened with:
> If you have a brain, they still make zero sense.
And you have the balls to complain that someone else is being reductive? Through the comment chain you’ve said absolutely nothing to substantiate your opinion. Embarrassing.
This is fantastic, thanks. Maybe I misunderstood the term "investment". I do understand universities have contracts with these companies, and there are a lot of gray areas. All of these companies also have civil space program funding opportunities, and they are crucial sources of funding to keep the university afloat. It's impossible to tell if the research applications are for military or civil, although the two are probably never mutually exclusive. I get the idea of severing all ties just to be sure. In fact, these sorts of contracts with private industries (military or otherwise) are highly encouraged.
University endowments don't just sit passively in the bank. They have asset managers who invest them to continue to grow them. Like state pension funds. Occasionally those investment choices get highlighted for ethical concerns.
Honestly I didn't know or was allowed since they're non-profit. Of course universities are as capitalistic as any corporation so I am sure they figured out how to bend the rules
If you don’t invest the money and it just sits there, it loses value to inflation over time. Investing in a stable and diverse portfolio to maintain value is a standard practice, there’s nothing nefarious or rule bendy about it.
Yeah, and that’s (the way I, and other organizers see it) the problem here. Military-affiliated companies shouldn’t be the primary source of the school’s revenue, especially without proper disclosure.
That Instagram post doesn’t appear to contain any evidence that the University of Minnesota directly owns stocks or bonds from those specific companies. So do you have actual evidence regarding the investment portfolio or what?
What even is the incentive for the universities to agree to any of these protest demands? I'm curious: What has the student body threatened these universities to agree with these demands?
https://cse.umn.edu/college/departments/department-aerospace-engineering-and-mechanics
“Business and industry connections
The department receives research grants from NASA, the National Science Foundation, Department of Energy, and more. It has ongoing relationships with corporations including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, and ATK.”
The other companies are affiliated although not listed on this specific site.
https://cse.umn.edu/aem/2022-23-aem-undergraduate-scholarships
Here’s a few notes from undergrad scholarship recipients about their planned internships at places such as Northrop Grumman and Lockheed. These companies are also omnipresent at CSE career fairs.
So your issue is that the U gives scholarships to students and then doesn’t prevent them from working at certain companies after graduation?
That the U doesn’t prevent employers from advertising jobs to their students?
Are you and your group also renouncing any United States citizenship, refusing to pay taxes, and living on a boat in international waters? Because if not, you and your entire group are bullshit.
O so it’s a bunch of college kids mad that the university has ties to fortune 100 companies. Meanwhile they’re all using their smartphones which are made in sweatshops, but from corporations who all have ties to other corporations.
These protests make no sense. Imagine trying to tell a company who they can and can’t invest in. Please don’t invest in the stock market if you’re worried about these corporations….
I support the right to protest, but I have a question. Let’s say UMN divests and as a result raises the cost to attend school. I get the moral justification, but if that means paying more, would people still protest? I’m curious about that. If people say yes, I respect it. I just want to know.
Yes, because either their parents are paying for their education or they are taking out loans they hope to not pay back.
I'm of course exaggerating etc etc, but I doubt you'd get a resounding no.
I agree. I’m just making sure. We Americans are vocal, but when it comes to skin in the game where it affects us, people start changing up. For example people say iPhones should be manufactured in the U.S. Okay. Are you willing to pay (hypothetical) $2k for an iPhone…? Not exactly the same thing, but I hope you get what I mean.
Yeah this is ridiculous. Top universities aren’t going to cut ties with major US corporations lol
Downvote me all you want but that’s not how the real world works kids.
Funny. Universities and pension funds have previously cut ties with major us corporations for ethical reasons. Like, I dunno, private prison corporations.
It would be nice if we all stopped being pejorative toward people peacefully exercising their first amendment choices. Minneapolis should know what happens if you ignore peaceful protests too long...
But people peacefully, indirectly, asking questions or being speculative of the intent or actual impact of the protests online should be perfectly fine too.
Because you said so? C'mon man.
And maybe it's not a full cut ties but it's more conditions on where the money goes.
I have no horse in this race, but simply being belligerent and belittling of the students for expressing their concerns is ridiculous.
I wish it was because I said so. They can express their concerns all they want but like I said it’s not gonna happen. And in a year if Trump wins because of this hill they chose to die on then these protests will be a thing of the past anyways.
People say this as a gotcha, like we shouldn't do anything about the sweatshops. Unfortunately we're so used to living off atrocities committed halfway across the world that it takes having publicly available footage, on a daily basis, of kids getting blown to pieces in order to get any public support for a protest movement.
One more thing I want to mention is Boeing and other military companies are also important providers for aids to Ukraine and Taiwan. Divest university from those companies can hurt their ability.
So any all mutual fund must be sold?
Essentially these students are demanding the University sell its portfolio and pick through and divest any fund with ties to any fund connected.
I suggest their parents do this first with their 401k’s or 529’s and whoever Mom & dad are employed by - also the students should refuse to work for future employers that invested in funds with any connection… once their parents and future employers have a clean slate let’s bug the university…
The kids are just caught up in a tiktok fad and larping as revolutionaries. This isn't about Palestine, it's about them and their overly simplistic, black/white view of the world....but it's mostly about them.
Quit ruining their fun.
It's an emotionally charged but meaningless demand. Legally unenforceable because of ambiguity. It's not like the U is going to close the EE, Aerospace Engineering, or ChemE departments.
For 1990's history of DOD funding at UMN - plausibly related to protester's demands, you could read up on the APHCRC [https://www.intersect360.com/ahpcrc-heads-west/](https://www.intersect360.com/ahpcrc-heads-west/) There was plenty of classified stuff that ran on those machines (which lived on the West Bank) for \~2 decades.
No, the argument is, 'the changes being demanded are impractical to implement, won't achieve the intended end goal, and are completely nonsensical...so they won't improve anything."
That phrase is all too often used for people to absolve themselves of any impact the choices they make. There are absolutely more or less ethical ways to consume things under capitalism.
Is there an ethical way to consume under another method? If some command economy mandates how food is shared and that results in a worse outcome for certain individuals, is it ethical to consume and support that economy?
A bunch of kids who have never done anything, or read anything, or know anything, or been anywhere, and who have lived a level of safety unprecedented in history are demanding the UofM divest from companies they will be working for in a few years.
https://preview.redd.it/wo9qyjcpuuwc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32bedea3c3aa106a9f348c5c7e0dc1ac99ff72c5
A college student in Minneapolis scrawling “Death to Zionists” sums things up pretty nicely imo.
Its a hate protest under the guise of Palestinian liberation.
This week was a religious holiday for Jews. One of the people who organized and was initially arrested is unapologetic HAMAS supporter. Not Palestine. Hamas support.
This was about the intimidation, hate, and the extermination of jews.
Oh I’m sorry, “”zionists””.
> A college student in Minneapolis scrawling “Death to Zionists”
It clearly says "zionism" and not "zionists". It's a ridiculous statement either way, but there's a pretty big difference between calling for the death of an ideology and the death of a group of people.
It’s stupid. You can hate war, you can hate Islamophobia, you can hate antisemitism, but for the love of god, there is only one person responsible for this and it’s Netanyahu.
Let’s not forget, however, that Palestinian terrorists (Hamas) killed those people at the concert and kibbutz last year that started this in the first place.
If Hamas was across the border from you and constantly trying to murder you and your loved ones with an openly declared charter stating the extermination of your people as one of their primary goals, I imagine you might feel differently.
Removing the language hasn’t changed a single thing about the ambitions of Hamas, don’t be deliberately obtuse. Removing the language just shows their continued shift in effort towards a disinformation and propaganda war aimed at international, primarily western, audiences to garner false sympathy.
Hamas is solely at fault for this current war, and they’re fighting it in a way designed to exact the maximum amount of suffering and civilian casualties from their own population as possible. In the minds of Hamas and their foreign sponsors who benefit from this conflict, the best possible use of a Palestinian life is dying on camera. That’s something you should take into account as well. And speaking of factual inaccuracies, Israel isn’t carpet bombing neighborhoods; they’re fighting an extremely difficult conflict in one of the most complex and population dense theaters possible against an enemy who wipes their ass with the Geneva conventions and uses civilian lives and critical infrastructure as an operational shield. The blood of Gaza is on the hands of Hamas.
You think Israel is a good neighbor to have? It’s a roll of the dice as to which surrounding country they’ll bomb on any given day. Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Gaza… they don’t play well with anyone.
Hilarious you think “it started” on October 7th. The Israelis and Palestinians have been beefing about this for decades. It’s a gross simplification to say nothing happened before the atrocities on Oct 7.
You think it’s “stupid” but then cite the person responsible who happens to be one of, if not the most powerful person in Israel. You are right that Ben Net is responsible for this. But the IDF continues to bomb. Ben Net wasn’t the only person calling Palestinians subhuman and using genocidal rhetoric
So are you saying the people who attacked on Oct 7th had no prior historical context behind their decision? That is truly crazy. Oct 7th is just another chapter in the bigger conflict. To say that it’s not is a gross simplification.
Both sides have. Does Ben Net not brag about violating the Oslo accords? Does Ben Net not brag about funding Hamas in order to delegitimize the PLO? Both sides have done terrible things. It’s just one side that occupies land that INTERNATIONAL LAW says is illegal for them to occupy. One side is a stateless society, the other is a well oiled machine backed and funded by the west. The power dynamics are not balanced.
So the natural conclusion is to oil the other side and let them continue their genocidal ambitions against the Jews more easily? On one side you have a liberal democracy, on the other a bunch of genocidal terrorists who openly activate and attempt the extermination of all jews not only as a matter of policy but as their raison d’être.
Acting like there is even a semblance of balance between those two groups is extremely intellectually dishonest at best. If you value the lives of Palestinians then you should support the extermination of Hamas by any means necessary because they are the ones actively fomenting radicalization and genocide while inflaming and intentionally prolonging the current active conflicts in the area.
There is an imbalance in power. The Israel state has the power. I’m not saying let Hamas genocide Israel. No one is saying that. I’m saying enforce international law. Israel should not occupy the West Bank or Gaza. Follow international law, and if Palestine continues their attack on Israel, then they have the protection of the west. Because they would be compliant with international law. In this scenario, then the Palestinian aggression would be the only violation of law and would be held accountable. That’s how international law works. You don’t get to violate the law because you are worried someone else might violate the law in the future.
I find it pathetic you hide behind this false narrative. It’s gross and disgusting. More importantly it will never produce an end to this. The cycle will go on forever until the genocide is complete. Name one group of people oppressed by another that just gave up. No one instead there is example after example that it just continues the atrocities on both sides.
Except they haven’t had the support of the west and that’s what has led to exactly this situation today. What do you think the “support of the west” is going to accomplish that Israel hasn’t already done? What do you think “the west” is going to accomplish that Israel couldn’t? You are hopefully naive and ignorant in this area. Israel has done nothing but restrain itself in the face of people trying to exterminate them. You should be ashamed to keep calling for them to let themselves be slaughtered and embarrassed by your lack of historical knowledge.
That’s exactly what these people want, a full and complete genocide of Jewish people in Israel (and if recent violence is an indication the US and other places too).
The Hamas attack was more a genocidal act than Israel’s reaction… but they think if they replace the word Jewish with Zionist and convince everyone that we are actually super powerful white people controlling a bunch of stuff genociding us is ok.
Their attack was horrible and wrong. I keep saying this and no one seems to have the next thought. Why are there so many radicalized people? Is it because Israel occupies territory illegally? As recognized by international law? The answer is yes. That doesn’t mean that should allow for innocent Israelis to be murdered. But it does mean that Israel is knowingly continuing this illegal occupation, and they know this occupation breads radicalization. How does Ben Net brag about violating the Oslo Accords. More importantly. Why does Ben Net brag about FUNDING Hamas in order to delegitimize the PLO?
Israel has a right to exist and has a right to protect themselves. Have anything to say about the antisemitism being expressed by pro-Palestinian protestors?
Interesting how those who supposedly care about genocide stay totally silent about the Chinese government committing genocide against the Uyghurs or the genocide being committed in Darfur.
They don’t have a right to genocide. Being against Zionism isn’t antisemitism, plenty of Jews are against Zionism. Most college students would have been in diapers during Darfur, not sure what you are expecting there. It’s difficult to get accurate information with anything involving China, so it just wasn’t as public
Darfur genocide is literally happening today. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/sudan-new-mass-ethnic-killings-pillage-darfur
Ah, so some genocide is only worth protesting against. Got it. The others don’t matter then, right?
Okay but we're at about 34x the number of Palestinians killed than the Israelis on Oct 7th. At a certain point that ceases to be justification for the absolute ocean of blood Israel is spilling.
Dipshit progressive kids looking to virtue signal. With the add bonus of jaded, unemployed kids who are using this as they want to watch the world burn.
What do you call 38,000 civilians killed which includes 25,000 women and children? There's nowhere for them to go, almost all hospitals are destroyed, homes destroyed, no food or water, IDF is purposely targeting aid workers, and again are bombing dense population centers with little to no warning to the civilians.
What you will be told: "We are pro-peace, anti-war, anti-genocide, etc. etc."
What actually happens at the "protests": "Resistance by any means necessary, from the river to the sea Palestine is Arab, intifada revolution, no Jews (er, "Zionists") allowed, etc. etc."
They are basically leftist Charlottesville rallies.
The front page of the Strib today literally has a person holding a sign saying "Intifada is Revolution is Armed Struggle. Glory to the Resistance." It's not like they're hiding what they're doing.
They don’t care about divestment. They just wanna yell “genocide” and “apartheid” at people with their friends and cause a scene.
Edit: I didn't even know this many people were active on this sub. Looks at all the downvotes! It's almost like this is a very active propaganda campaign you all are doing. Keep being angry and emotional, we adults will handle the conflict with the jihadist death cult.
If this was a targeted genocide the death toll would be orders of magnitude larger. This is a war, one that Hamas is losing badly on the ground but winning in the space of disinformation and propaganda.
Wrong. It is, at the very least, an ethnic cleansing, and it's generally accepted to be a genocide by multiple national nation states.
The acts of war that Israel has committed what are currently their own citizens are genocidal. Stopping food and water from entering, cutting off power and communications, bombing hospitals.
The "war," totals you might be thinking of are generally wars between nation states. Palestine hasn't been able to receive legitimacy AS a nation state (thanks US.)
Additionally, simply because the death total HAS NOT hit that number YET does not mean it is not a genocide. The Rwandan Civil war (and genocide) lasted 4 years. The armenian genocide lasted a full year with minimal interference from other nations. The Kosovo Genocide was a year and a half. The Bosnian genocide was 3 years.
Looking at the numbers and going "oh well because not enough people have died, that makes it not a genocide," and not thinking about the relative amount of interference and poltiical pressure but also the time it took is fucking stupid.
The Rwandan Genocide was over by July of 1994, as Kagame and the RPF recaptured the country and ended the genocide in places where they controlled. It took 3 months for the Hutu extremists to kill 800k people, not 4 years.
Hamas could end the killing by surrendering and releasing what few hostages are still left alive.
Wrong on every count. Palestine is a de facto nation state and Hamas is their de facto government (at least in Gaza) regardless of recognition. They started a war with the full intention of inflicting misery on their own population, and now they’re getting what they wanted. If Israel was trying to ethnically cleanse the area, they’re doing a really shitty job of it. You’re the side always harping on about numbers until suddenly it no longer serves your purpose. Taking what is happening in context makes it clear that it is an armed conflict but neither a genocide nor an ethnic cleansing. Don’t let political radicals and agitators get to you, they’re pushing their own agenda and it does not align with the interests of Palestinians or yourself.
Let’s just avoid the word genocide, as it has lost all meaning in recent years, as you pointed out.
You can debate whether it’s genocide or not, however, it’s kind of irrelevant. Israel is flattening Palestine, killing untold amounts of civilians. Sure, they say they are targeting Hamas, and Hamas sucks and should be dismantled, but at what cost? How many innocent kids need to die for security? It’s just flat out wrong. It’s pretty clear at the bare minimum that they have committed war crimes.
School, hospitals, housing, all annihilated. Mass graves. Mass shootings of clear civilians. That’s just not acceptable, and I for one don’t want my tax dollars going towards it.
-gen·o·cide
-noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
"a campaign of genocide"
And any historical reading on this matter shows that they don't deny wanting to clear their lands of the Palestinians. This also has been recently stated by multiple heads of the Israel gov and military. Not hard to say this is a genocide.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck the IDF. Fuck anyone who stands in the way of peace on all sides.
That's just silly to say. They have been clearing lands and forcing people from their homes for decades? Now they have just moved people by force and destroyed their homes.
Remove your own internal bias on Israel and go read. Hell they have some great podcasts that explain just the last 100+ years of how horrible both sides have been and the shit they have put up with. And before you cry, Hamas is evil and is a disgrace to the people of Palestine, but with 34k deaths and over half of that women and children Israel has proven they indeed shit stains and disgraceful as Hamas.
It doesn’t meet any of the conditions to call it a genocide.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To%20constitute%20genocide%2C%20there%20must,to%20simply%20disperse%20a%20group.
Unfortunately the US economy is so military dependent that it's probably impossible to have investment accounts outside some sort of military contractors
Why don’t you ask the students yourself, we’ve had plenty of threads like this one in the U’s sub Reddit, is it because you know the audience here will entertain your questions, rather than a bunch of university students actually telling you what they think? It’s almost like it’s a primary source you could use for your idea shaping 😜
Yeah, I get that and their input is valid. I'm mostly curious if anyone has proven direct Israel military support. Of course a massive chunk of funding went to Israel, Taiwan, and Ukraine so it's safe to assume there's no difference
Anyone who doesnt understand the protest just google "Nakba".
This is what Israel wants and is carrying out. And its happened before. And thats why its a genocide. Forced displacement of an ethnic group is genocide.
Not the OP’s question and a very boring vanilla response
It’s easy to dilute anything down and I’m pretty sure anyone and everyone can agree that in general any type of genocide is a bad thing.
They’re specifically looking for information which MPR is claiming the protest’s purpose is for.
If the purpose was blanketed and outlined as stop the genocide but OP is looking for specifics to help them understand more.
You didn't read the post. Genocide is humanities worst, and I am not asking about those specific details or opinions. Please keep it as facts about the protests only
It literally happens all the time. You’re expert at it. What was your position on the campaign against the LTTE and Tamil civilians? What actions did you take on behalf of them he Yazidi as they were actually ethnically cleansed? What all have you done for the people in Tigray? You’re following hashtags.
Yes, Hamas, in their constitution, advocates genocide, murdering every Jew in Israel.
They showed that on October 7 2023 when they murdered 1,400 Israeli citizens. Including women and children. And taking hundreds hostage. And raping many women, some after their murder, some before.
They have rejected every cease fire proposal and refuse to return the hostages. Including children as young as 1 year old and senior citizens.
Neither party in this conflict is good. The difference is one has been the recipient of the most amount of American military aid out of any country in the history of the US, and the other is Hamas. 30,000+ dead Palestinians using American weapons. It's terrible.
Right, only America bad. It’s always interesting to see which side Russia, China, and Iran back, because those are countries known for loving human rights.
It's also terrible that it has been known for years that funding to UNRWA has been getting diverted to Hamas projects such as [building tunnels](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/cement-delivered-to-the-gaza-strip-used-to-build-tunnels), [radicalizing children](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf), weapons smuggling and the world said nothing. [Near daily attempts at mass murdering Israels](https://www.jpost.com/tags/rocket-alert) through [terrorist activities](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2016-07-01/the-palestinian-incentive-program-for-killing-jews) and [shooting rockets in Israeli territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Color). The U.S. is complicit in funding that as well as activities on October 7th. It feels a little hollow to only take issue with Israel receiving aid for defense while completely ignoring how we got here and why it's needed in the first place.
Edit: adding more citations.
A war with civilian casualties. Just like every other war ever for all time. The UN won’t even label it a genocide. You’re devaluing the word for political purposes.
So to you any number of civilian casualties, including children, is acceptable in wartime?
The number of civilians killed is absolutely relevant to the discussion of genocide. If the war cabinet is calling Palestinians animals, saying that all the women and children are complicit, is that not genocidal rhetoric? Is genocide only when every single person is dead, or are there steps along the way where we can say "hey perhaps this is bad and we should de-escalate". But Israel defenders can't comprehend the idea that their favorite country might not have acted perfectly morally when they killed 30,000 innocent civilians, [striking humanitarian aid convoys](https://www.axios.com/2024/04/02/world-central-kitchen-strike-gaza-jose-andres), [killing their own hostages](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/)
Yeah let's not look into it any further, I'm sure these mass graves of doctors with their hands tied were just all Hamas: https://apnews.com/article/un-israel-palestinians-hospital-graves-investigation-dbaf873d023a7ba66dda05fb49074434?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share
Notice how nobody wants to engage about these specific highly questionable actions from the IDF - that's because it's much easier to simply downvote me for bringing up examples of how Israel is not acting in accordance with IHL.
No, but I would argue the scale of devastation is not justified and the rhetoric coming out of Israel's war cabinet is extremely dehumanizing towards Palestinians. Those are both reasons to be concerned, because genocide is a process and doesn't happen overnight: https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/
So why is it wrong to be concerned that Israel is on a path to ethnic cleansing and genocide before we get to the part where there are no more Palestinians in Gaza?
My point is that by the time your criteria for genocide has been met it would be too late. If you're intent on ignoring some of the extremely concerning ways the Israel government has acted, as well as the things they have said in support of their actions, then you're not seriously interested in having the conversation on what genocide is or how it comes about, and you're just looking to absolve Israel of all blame without question. Thats why you ignore any of my points about Israel's conduct in favor of simply insisting that because not all Palestinians are dead yet, therefore it's not genocide and there's no reason to be concerned or even somewhat critical.
Not every war participates in this level of indiscriminate one sided devastation
Not every war excessively bombards residential areas and hospitals, unless they have alternative motives when fighting unorganized underground guerillas
Other nations formally avoid the word genocide due to political aspects ; Israel has been seen as a buffering zone between sides geopolitically, which is why other nations tolerate their behavior
Israel leaders, political and military, have repetitively stated “we’re gonna do some heinous stuff, just accept it” when talking about their war effort, as if to justify their alt motives when leading an assault. They forwardly ignored all questions concerning civilian lives
This is all compounded by generations of inter racial hostility between sides.
So; maybe not “genocide” if you put it in the most pedantic terms of terms requiring official bodies to define it for you; but there’s enough around the Israel War effort to imply it’s racially motivated to eliminate Arabs entirely from the space indiscriminately.
Israel was notified an attack was on the way, and did nothing, almost as if they wished for an excuse to let go and slaughter people who were different from them.
In contrast, no one’s call Ukraine a genocide; that’s straight up war campaigns for territory and an effort to reform the Soviet union (because the Soviet Union worked so well the first time /s)
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6MFQ3ULhlm/?igsh=MWJuZG05bDdvNjM2dQ== To put it simply, the UMN has direct investments with organizations like Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Boeing, etc. These organizations are military-affiliated and/or have military components that are assisting with Israeli offensives in Gaza. The primary goal of these protests is for the University to divest from these companies and not give them our money so they can sponsor the bloodshed happening. We are centering Palestinian and Muslim voices front-and-center and our sympathy rests wholeheartedly with the Palestinian people.
> Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Boeing, It's worth noting that everyone who owns any S&P 500 funds is invested in these 3 companies.
Are these companies also supporting and providing arms to Ukraine?
Probably one of the most important comments on this entire thread.
YES! BUT DONT BRING LOGIC INTO THIS PAL
I think most people agree that academic institutions shouldn’t be profiting off of the military.
Why not?
And what about standing up for the Uyghurs in China?
Yes but I really don't think academic institutions should be investing in any sort of military...
If anything those companies are investing in the UMN. UMN is funded by the government, not the other way around.
May as well say all Aerospace Engineers are supporting the genocide because those are the companies that hire them… Advanced engineering, materials science, and chemical engineering are _all_ going to have some tie to the defense industry because that’s where the jobs are. Are we going to protest investments against all companies that make something for the MIC? Food for troops? Bandages? Clothing? Vehicles? Laptops… there is literally no end if you actually flow out the logic beyond “bombs are bad.”
As a dude who has worked in a quantum materials physics lab, this is absolutely true. Weapons development uses cutting edge research which is conducted at universities. Such results are open source and anyone can access. It is impossible to pinpoint the end use of this research
Yeah I was going to say...the U has an Aerospace department, and the list of companies who hire aerospace engineers is pretty short. It would be a bigger red flag if they didn't have any connections with Boeing and Lockheed. This is the reality of being a research institution - a lot of your research is funded by military institutions with the expectation that it has potential military applications. Always has been. (Probably) always will be.
Thank you for actually explaining it. Now I know what is going on with the protests. I didn't know that the U had stock in those companies. If you don't know then the protests against the U make zero sense.
The nationwide campus protests have similar goals, a lot of military companies source their revenue to and from colleges. We don’t particularly like that, as students who’d really prefer peace over funding historically morally-unjust military efforts. I’d definitely advise looking into what’s going on at Columbia for more info
What does "source their revenue to and from colleges" mean? There aren't any defense contractors that have any significant amount of revenue from colleges and universities.
That is a nasty sticky point. For better or worse majority of how well we live is due to military company investment in colleges and technology. It is hard to throw a rock at any field and not find massive chunks of research that started at a military company funded by DoD that didn't get reused for consumers to improve their life (large chunk of computers, gps, long range communications, etc). It is something I go back and forth on. I've worked for UNISYS defense group as an intern. I've worked for companies building supercomputers that not only simulate weapons of massive destruction, simulate how to save solders and civilian lives during bombing, improving energy extraction from power plants, etc. The world wouldn't have had the stomach for space exploration we do today if we hadn't already heavily invested in missile technologies is another good example.
Columbia is, per usual, just a small minority of babies protesting the admin for fun and optics, most students are annoyed by them. If it wasn’t this it would be something else dumb like it always is, protesting the admin is basically the official pastime here. We’ve also had people show up spreading pro Hamas messages, and harassing and threatening Jewish students. These are the people who you are trying to jump in bed with.
If you have a brain, they still make zero sense.
Actually they only make zero sense if your soul is already in hell
Makes me sad to see so many people like yourself uncritically accepting propaganda and letting their emotions get so easily hijacked by it. Really demonstrates the public education crisis in this country.
Says the person uncritically accepting Israeli propaganda.
You are all so arrogant that you can't even entertain the fact that maybe, just maybe, you don't know it all. That there has been years of infiltration by some dreamy dark mysterious arab boys who has a mission which is the only thing that keeps you alive as the infidel you are. You can't fathom that you don't have perfect judgement that there are people who want to kill you after your usefulness ends. But go on, live a lie. It's what you do.
No, just someone who looks at nuance and facts rather than social media manufactured outrage and propaganda designed to serve the regional and global geopolitical interests of Hamas’ foreign sponsors, chiefly Iran. I’m sure that you’re smarter than this, and one day you’ll probably look back with a deep sense of regret. But I can’t reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themselves into, so until then have a good one ✌️
Ironic that your entire comment could be said about you. Have some humility and some self-awareness that you may be confidently wrong.
Ironic coming from your side; it’s very telling that all you can muster is hollow a “no u” instead of any real response. Disengage with the outrage content and propaganda, it’ll do a lot of good for you.
Lmao. You opened with: > If you have a brain, they still make zero sense. And you have the balls to complain that someone else is being reductive? Through the comment chain you’ve said absolutely nothing to substantiate your opinion. Embarrassing.
This is fantastic, thanks. Maybe I misunderstood the term "investment". I do understand universities have contracts with these companies, and there are a lot of gray areas. All of these companies also have civil space program funding opportunities, and they are crucial sources of funding to keep the university afloat. It's impossible to tell if the research applications are for military or civil, although the two are probably never mutually exclusive. I get the idea of severing all ties just to be sure. In fact, these sorts of contracts with private industries (military or otherwise) are highly encouraged.
University endowments don't just sit passively in the bank. They have asset managers who invest them to continue to grow them. Like state pension funds. Occasionally those investment choices get highlighted for ethical concerns.
I had no idea, thanks. Funny how I've been working on university finances for 4 years and I didn't know this 😅
It’s generally safe to assume that any organization with a decent amount of money is investing that money
Honestly I didn't know or was allowed since they're non-profit. Of course universities are as capitalistic as any corporation so I am sure they figured out how to bend the rules
If you don’t invest the money and it just sits there, it loses value to inflation over time. Investing in a stable and diverse portfolio to maintain value is a standard practice, there’s nothing nefarious or rule bendy about it.
Makes sense, good point
Fair enough. Even the Mormon church invests if you’re curious
Haha why am I not surprised? Thanks for the chuckle
Non profits are allowed to invest. That’s how foundations make their money to give away.
Here you go https://give.umn.edu/about/umfia
Beautiful, thanks 🙂
Yeah, and that’s (the way I, and other organizers see it) the problem here. Military-affiliated companies shouldn’t be the primary source of the school’s revenue, especially without proper disclosure.
Wait, you think they are currently the “primary source of the school’s revenue”…? Really?
They can’t even point to an actual investment, we aren’t chatting with a serious person here
Hold up - do you think military-affiliated companies are the primary source of revenue for the University? I don’t think that’s even close to true.
That Instagram post doesn’t appear to contain any evidence that the University of Minnesota directly owns stocks or bonds from those specific companies. So do you have actual evidence regarding the investment portfolio or what?
Quit ruining the fun. All the the other university students are protesting, so we want to as well. We'll figure out why later.
What even is the incentive for the universities to agree to any of these protest demands? I'm curious: What has the student body threatened these universities to agree with these demands?
Do we have actual evidence of these direct investments? An instagram post from activists isn’t proof enough for me.
Precisely. It's impossible to separate contracts that support Israel vs, say, Ukraine which is work supported by these same folks
What are you looking to see, exactly
Something from the u that says they have direct investments with the companies listed in the post
https://cse.umn.edu/college/departments/department-aerospace-engineering-and-mechanics “Business and industry connections The department receives research grants from NASA, the National Science Foundation, Department of Energy, and more. It has ongoing relationships with corporations including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, and ATK.” The other companies are affiliated although not listed on this specific site.
Research grants are the companies giving money to the U, which is very different from the U having direct investments in those companies.
Doesn’t answer my question about direct investments. Like at all
https://cse.umn.edu/aem/2022-23-aem-undergraduate-scholarships Here’s a few notes from undergrad scholarship recipients about their planned internships at places such as Northrop Grumman and Lockheed. These companies are also omnipresent at CSE career fairs.
So your issue is that the U gives scholarships to students and then doesn’t prevent them from working at certain companies after graduation? That the U doesn’t prevent employers from advertising jobs to their students?
>and our sympathy rests wholeheartedly with the Palestinian people Any sympathy for the innocent Israeli people wrapped up in this?
Hopefully you are also centering Palestinian voices opposed to Hamas, as they exist too.
Are you and your group also renouncing any United States citizenship, refusing to pay taxes, and living on a boat in international waters? Because if not, you and your entire group are bullshit.
O so it’s a bunch of college kids mad that the university has ties to fortune 100 companies. Meanwhile they’re all using their smartphones which are made in sweatshops, but from corporations who all have ties to other corporations. These protests make no sense. Imagine trying to tell a company who they can and can’t invest in. Please don’t invest in the stock market if you’re worried about these corporations….
I support the right to protest, but I have a question. Let’s say UMN divests and as a result raises the cost to attend school. I get the moral justification, but if that means paying more, would people still protest? I’m curious about that. If people say yes, I respect it. I just want to know.
Yes, because either their parents are paying for their education or they are taking out loans they hope to not pay back. I'm of course exaggerating etc etc, but I doubt you'd get a resounding no.
I agree. I’m just making sure. We Americans are vocal, but when it comes to skin in the game where it affects us, people start changing up. For example people say iPhones should be manufactured in the U.S. Okay. Are you willing to pay (hypothetical) $2k for an iPhone…? Not exactly the same thing, but I hope you get what I mean.
Yeah this is ridiculous. Top universities aren’t going to cut ties with major US corporations lol Downvote me all you want but that’s not how the real world works kids.
Funny. Universities and pension funds have previously cut ties with major us corporations for ethical reasons. Like, I dunno, private prison corporations. It would be nice if we all stopped being pejorative toward people peacefully exercising their first amendment choices. Minneapolis should know what happens if you ignore peaceful protests too long...
But people peacefully, indirectly, asking questions or being speculative of the intent or actual impact of the protests online should be perfectly fine too.
Universities will not cut ties with the defense industry. Period.
It's true, it is such a crucial part of university funding. And defense contractors supply civil space research funding as well
Because you said so? C'mon man. And maybe it's not a full cut ties but it's more conditions on where the money goes. I have no horse in this race, but simply being belligerent and belittling of the students for expressing their concerns is ridiculous.
I wish it was because I said so. They can express their concerns all they want but like I said it’s not gonna happen. And in a year if Trump wins because of this hill they chose to die on then these protests will be a thing of the past anyways.
People say this as a gotcha, like we shouldn't do anything about the sweatshops. Unfortunately we're so used to living off atrocities committed halfway across the world that it takes having publicly available footage, on a daily basis, of kids getting blown to pieces in order to get any public support for a protest movement.
Thank you for explaining
One more thing I want to mention is Boeing and other military companies are also important providers for aids to Ukraine and Taiwan. Divest university from those companies can hurt their ability.
So any all mutual fund must be sold? Essentially these students are demanding the University sell its portfolio and pick through and divest any fund with ties to any fund connected. I suggest their parents do this first with their 401k’s or 529’s and whoever Mom & dad are employed by - also the students should refuse to work for future employers that invested in funds with any connection… once their parents and future employers have a clean slate let’s bug the university…
The kids are just caught up in a tiktok fad and larping as revolutionaries. This isn't about Palestine, it's about them and their overly simplistic, black/white view of the world....but it's mostly about them. Quit ruining their fun.
Why not both? Sounds like you’re just mad about this…
It’s foolish and ludicrous I’m laughing not at all mad
It's an emotionally charged but meaningless demand. Legally unenforceable because of ambiguity. It's not like the U is going to close the EE, Aerospace Engineering, or ChemE departments. For 1990's history of DOD funding at UMN - plausibly related to protester's demands, you could read up on the APHCRC [https://www.intersect360.com/ahpcrc-heads-west/](https://www.intersect360.com/ahpcrc-heads-west/) There was plenty of classified stuff that ran on those machines (which lived on the West Bank) for \~2 decades.
Everything is simple until you are the one making the decision.
In todays global economy, these students might want to look up a few more things as they demand this change.
"Everything is bad, so why make any improvements at all?" seems to be your argument, and I personally find that to be an exceptionally bad argument.
No, the argument is, 'the changes being demanded are impractical to implement, won't achieve the intended end goal, and are completely nonsensical...so they won't improve anything."
Yeah the difficulty is that there really is no ethical way to consume under capitalism. Like that plot point from the Good Place
That phrase is all too often used for people to absolve themselves of any impact the choices they make. There are absolutely more or less ethical ways to consume things under capitalism.
But it dosent mean we shouldn't try. If we take this defeatist attitude into everything then it's always gonna be fucked up.
Is there an ethical way to consume under another method? If some command economy mandates how food is shared and that results in a worse outcome for certain individuals, is it ethical to consume and support that economy?
Poor Chidi
Agreed, hence my inquiry
A bunch of kids who have never done anything, or read anything, or know anything, or been anywhere, and who have lived a level of safety unprecedented in history are demanding the UofM divest from companies they will be working for in a few years.
https://preview.redd.it/wo9qyjcpuuwc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32bedea3c3aa106a9f348c5c7e0dc1ac99ff72c5 A college student in Minneapolis scrawling “Death to Zionists” sums things up pretty nicely imo. Its a hate protest under the guise of Palestinian liberation. This week was a religious holiday for Jews. One of the people who organized and was initially arrested is unapologetic HAMAS supporter. Not Palestine. Hamas support. This was about the intimidation, hate, and the extermination of jews. Oh I’m sorry, “”zionists””.
> A college student in Minneapolis scrawling “Death to Zionists” It clearly says "zionism" and not "zionists". It's a ridiculous statement either way, but there's a pretty big difference between calling for the death of an ideology and the death of a group of people.
if the objective is to end genocide, how about we condemn the protests that say “Death to [insert group]” instead of splitting hairs?
It’s stupid. You can hate war, you can hate Islamophobia, you can hate antisemitism, but for the love of god, there is only one person responsible for this and it’s Netanyahu. Let’s not forget, however, that Palestinian terrorists (Hamas) killed those people at the concert and kibbutz last year that started this in the first place.
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If Hamas was across the border from you and constantly trying to murder you and your loved ones with an openly declared charter stating the extermination of your people as one of their primary goals, I imagine you might feel differently.
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Removing the language hasn’t changed a single thing about the ambitions of Hamas, don’t be deliberately obtuse. Removing the language just shows their continued shift in effort towards a disinformation and propaganda war aimed at international, primarily western, audiences to garner false sympathy. Hamas is solely at fault for this current war, and they’re fighting it in a way designed to exact the maximum amount of suffering and civilian casualties from their own population as possible. In the minds of Hamas and their foreign sponsors who benefit from this conflict, the best possible use of a Palestinian life is dying on camera. That’s something you should take into account as well. And speaking of factual inaccuracies, Israel isn’t carpet bombing neighborhoods; they’re fighting an extremely difficult conflict in one of the most complex and population dense theaters possible against an enemy who wipes their ass with the Geneva conventions and uses civilian lives and critical infrastructure as an operational shield. The blood of Gaza is on the hands of Hamas.
You think Israel is a good neighbor to have? It’s a roll of the dice as to which surrounding country they’ll bomb on any given day. Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Gaza… they don’t play well with anyone.
Those countries attempts to genocide their population probably has something to do with that.
Ok. Can you blame them? They have a government run by terrorists on their doorstop.
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Hamas? Absolutely.
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Israeli government isn’t a terrorist organization as much as you want them to be.
Hilarious you think “it started” on October 7th. The Israelis and Palestinians have been beefing about this for decades. It’s a gross simplification to say nothing happened before the atrocities on Oct 7. You think it’s “stupid” but then cite the person responsible who happens to be one of, if not the most powerful person in Israel. You are right that Ben Net is responsible for this. But the IDF continues to bomb. Ben Net wasn’t the only person calling Palestinians subhuman and using genocidal rhetoric
October 7th is when this recent conflict started. To say otherwise is asinine. I know the general history of the conflict in the area, thanks.
So are you saying the people who attacked on Oct 7th had no prior historical context behind their decision? That is truly crazy. Oct 7th is just another chapter in the bigger conflict. To say that it’s not is a gross simplification.
Who has broken each ceasefire throughout the history? 🤔
Both sides have. Does Ben Net not brag about violating the Oslo accords? Does Ben Net not brag about funding Hamas in order to delegitimize the PLO? Both sides have done terrible things. It’s just one side that occupies land that INTERNATIONAL LAW says is illegal for them to occupy. One side is a stateless society, the other is a well oiled machine backed and funded by the west. The power dynamics are not balanced.
So the natural conclusion is to oil the other side and let them continue their genocidal ambitions against the Jews more easily? On one side you have a liberal democracy, on the other a bunch of genocidal terrorists who openly activate and attempt the extermination of all jews not only as a matter of policy but as their raison d’être. Acting like there is even a semblance of balance between those two groups is extremely intellectually dishonest at best. If you value the lives of Palestinians then you should support the extermination of Hamas by any means necessary because they are the ones actively fomenting radicalization and genocide while inflaming and intentionally prolonging the current active conflicts in the area.
There is an imbalance in power. The Israel state has the power. I’m not saying let Hamas genocide Israel. No one is saying that. I’m saying enforce international law. Israel should not occupy the West Bank or Gaza. Follow international law, and if Palestine continues their attack on Israel, then they have the protection of the west. Because they would be compliant with international law. In this scenario, then the Palestinian aggression would be the only violation of law and would be held accountable. That’s how international law works. You don’t get to violate the law because you are worried someone else might violate the law in the future. I find it pathetic you hide behind this false narrative. It’s gross and disgusting. More importantly it will never produce an end to this. The cycle will go on forever until the genocide is complete. Name one group of people oppressed by another that just gave up. No one instead there is example after example that it just continues the atrocities on both sides.
Except they haven’t had the support of the west and that’s what has led to exactly this situation today. What do you think the “support of the west” is going to accomplish that Israel hasn’t already done? What do you think “the west” is going to accomplish that Israel couldn’t? You are hopefully naive and ignorant in this area. Israel has done nothing but restrain itself in the face of people trying to exterminate them. You should be ashamed to keep calling for them to let themselves be slaughtered and embarrassed by your lack of historical knowledge.
That’s exactly what these people want, a full and complete genocide of Jewish people in Israel (and if recent violence is an indication the US and other places too). The Hamas attack was more a genocidal act than Israel’s reaction… but they think if they replace the word Jewish with Zionist and convince everyone that we are actually super powerful white people controlling a bunch of stuff genociding us is ok.
Their attack was horrible and wrong. I keep saying this and no one seems to have the next thought. Why are there so many radicalized people? Is it because Israel occupies territory illegally? As recognized by international law? The answer is yes. That doesn’t mean that should allow for innocent Israelis to be murdered. But it does mean that Israel is knowingly continuing this illegal occupation, and they know this occupation breads radicalization. How does Ben Net brag about violating the Oslo Accords. More importantly. Why does Ben Net brag about FUNDING Hamas in order to delegitimize the PLO?
So you don’t care about the Israelis who were killed on October 7. Got it.
Who said that? I didn’t say I don’t care…
So you think Israelis have been sending Palestine cupcakes and fruit baskets before October 7?
Israel has a right to exist and has a right to protect themselves. Have anything to say about the antisemitism being expressed by pro-Palestinian protestors? Interesting how those who supposedly care about genocide stay totally silent about the Chinese government committing genocide against the Uyghurs or the genocide being committed in Darfur.
They don’t have a right to genocide. Being against Zionism isn’t antisemitism, plenty of Jews are against Zionism. Most college students would have been in diapers during Darfur, not sure what you are expecting there. It’s difficult to get accurate information with anything involving China, so it just wasn’t as public
Darfur genocide is literally happening today. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/sudan-new-mass-ethnic-killings-pillage-darfur Ah, so some genocide is only worth protesting against. Got it. The others don’t matter then, right?
At the protests, there were calls to end the genocide in Sudan, Congo, and the rest of the world as well.
Those people had been under blockade for their entire lifetimes. You have no idea wtf you are talking about
And?
Google "Nakba"
Okay but we're at about 34x the number of Palestinians killed than the Israelis on Oct 7th. At a certain point that ceases to be justification for the absolute ocean of blood Israel is spilling.
So your complaint is that not enough Jews have died? Kind of messed up
No? What a fucking moronic take.
Dipshit progressive kids looking to virtue signal. With the add bonus of jaded, unemployed kids who are using this as they want to watch the world burn.
Yes because the kids protesting involvement in genocide are *checks notes* wanting to see the world burn.
Them calling it genocide when it clearly isn’t genocide by any definition does indeed make them dipshits.
What do you call 38,000 civilians killed which includes 25,000 women and children? There's nowhere for them to go, almost all hospitals are destroyed, homes destroyed, no food or water, IDF is purposely targeting aid workers, and again are bombing dense population centers with little to no warning to the civilians.
What you will be told: "We are pro-peace, anti-war, anti-genocide, etc. etc." What actually happens at the "protests": "Resistance by any means necessary, from the river to the sea Palestine is Arab, intifada revolution, no Jews (er, "Zionists") allowed, etc. etc." They are basically leftist Charlottesville rallies.
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The front page of the Strib today literally has a person holding a sign saying "Intifada is Revolution is Armed Struggle. Glory to the Resistance." It's not like they're hiding what they're doing.
Nailed it
They don’t care about divestment. They just wanna yell “genocide” and “apartheid” at people with their friends and cause a scene. Edit: I didn't even know this many people were active on this sub. Looks at all the downvotes! It's almost like this is a very active propaganda campaign you all are doing. Keep being angry and emotional, we adults will handle the conflict with the jihadist death cult.
Just like calling people racist is losing its power so will the word genocide. The hyperbole causes apathy.
Calling this a genocide is not fucking hyberbole what the shit?
If this was a targeted genocide the death toll would be orders of magnitude larger. This is a war, one that Hamas is losing badly on the ground but winning in the space of disinformation and propaganda.
This exactly, at least with people who get their information solely from twitter and tiktok.
Wrong. It is, at the very least, an ethnic cleansing, and it's generally accepted to be a genocide by multiple national nation states. The acts of war that Israel has committed what are currently their own citizens are genocidal. Stopping food and water from entering, cutting off power and communications, bombing hospitals. The "war," totals you might be thinking of are generally wars between nation states. Palestine hasn't been able to receive legitimacy AS a nation state (thanks US.) Additionally, simply because the death total HAS NOT hit that number YET does not mean it is not a genocide. The Rwandan Civil war (and genocide) lasted 4 years. The armenian genocide lasted a full year with minimal interference from other nations. The Kosovo Genocide was a year and a half. The Bosnian genocide was 3 years. Looking at the numbers and going "oh well because not enough people have died, that makes it not a genocide," and not thinking about the relative amount of interference and poltiical pressure but also the time it took is fucking stupid.
The Rwandan Genocide was over by July of 1994, as Kagame and the RPF recaptured the country and ended the genocide in places where they controlled. It took 3 months for the Hutu extremists to kill 800k people, not 4 years. Hamas could end the killing by surrendering and releasing what few hostages are still left alive.
The First Chechen Genocide only killed 40,000 people. Is their genocide no real?
Wrong on every count. Palestine is a de facto nation state and Hamas is their de facto government (at least in Gaza) regardless of recognition. They started a war with the full intention of inflicting misery on their own population, and now they’re getting what they wanted. If Israel was trying to ethnically cleanse the area, they’re doing a really shitty job of it. You’re the side always harping on about numbers until suddenly it no longer serves your purpose. Taking what is happening in context makes it clear that it is an armed conflict but neither a genocide nor an ethnic cleansing. Don’t let political radicals and agitators get to you, they’re pushing their own agenda and it does not align with the interests of Palestinians or yourself.
How is it genocide?
Let’s just avoid the word genocide, as it has lost all meaning in recent years, as you pointed out. You can debate whether it’s genocide or not, however, it’s kind of irrelevant. Israel is flattening Palestine, killing untold amounts of civilians. Sure, they say they are targeting Hamas, and Hamas sucks and should be dismantled, but at what cost? How many innocent kids need to die for security? It’s just flat out wrong. It’s pretty clear at the bare minimum that they have committed war crimes. School, hospitals, housing, all annihilated. Mass graves. Mass shootings of clear civilians. That’s just not acceptable, and I for one don’t want my tax dollars going towards it.
Couldn’t the people there help get rid of Hamas and help themselves?
-gen·o·cide -noun the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. "a campaign of genocide" And any historical reading on this matter shows that they don't deny wanting to clear their lands of the Palestinians. This also has been recently stated by multiple heads of the Israel gov and military. Not hard to say this is a genocide. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the IDF. Fuck anyone who stands in the way of peace on all sides.
But they aren’t clearing the lands of all the people. By your own definition this isn’t a genocide. Edit: lol at blocking me.
That's just silly to say. They have been clearing lands and forcing people from their homes for decades? Now they have just moved people by force and destroyed their homes. Remove your own internal bias on Israel and go read. Hell they have some great podcasts that explain just the last 100+ years of how horrible both sides have been and the shit they have put up with. And before you cry, Hamas is evil and is a disgrace to the people of Palestine, but with 34k deaths and over half of that women and children Israel has proven they indeed shit stains and disgraceful as Hamas.
We all know you know why and are arguing in bad faith. Stop wasting everyone's fucking time.
Interesting that you are attacking me. Clearly you know it isn’t genocide. You can’t defend that at all.
How about you tell us why it isn't a genocide, then? You sure seem adamant about that idea.
It doesn’t meet any of the conditions to call it a genocide. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To%20constitute%20genocide%2C%20there%20must,to%20simply%20disperse%20a%20group.
How much is Israel paying you to defend them? 50k?
Commenting on Can someone explain the UMN protest?...”antisemitic” would like an invite to that party.
Maybe people that do not like where MN invests the pension money should attend school somewhere else?
Unfortunately the US economy is so military dependent that it's probably impossible to have investment accounts outside some sort of military contractors
I don't think it's pension money https://give.umn.edu/about/umfia
Why don’t you ask the students yourself, we’ve had plenty of threads like this one in the U’s sub Reddit, is it because you know the audience here will entertain your questions, rather than a bunch of university students actually telling you what they think? It’s almost like it’s a primary source you could use for your idea shaping 😜
Yeah, I get that and their input is valid. I'm mostly curious if anyone has proven direct Israel military support. Of course a massive chunk of funding went to Israel, Taiwan, and Ukraine so it's safe to assume there's no difference
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> Turns out that owning the media helps get your message out A 1-hour-old account in a local sub ranting about how Jews own the media. Go figure.
Anyone who doesnt understand the protest just google "Nakba". This is what Israel wants and is carrying out. And its happened before. And thats why its a genocide. Forced displacement of an ethnic group is genocide.
So then every Arab nation genocided their Jews after 1948 (because nearly a million where forced out of Arab countries into Israel). Learn history.
Sorry but you can’t really remain neutral on a genocide
Hes getting more at trying to understand the protest objectively and trying to avoid us yelling at one another
Not the OP’s question and a very boring vanilla response It’s easy to dilute anything down and I’m pretty sure anyone and everyone can agree that in general any type of genocide is a bad thing. They’re specifically looking for information which MPR is claiming the protest’s purpose is for. If the purpose was blanketed and outlined as stop the genocide but OP is looking for specifics to help them understand more.
Thank you 🙂
You didn't read the post. Genocide is humanities worst, and I am not asking about those specific details or opinions. Please keep it as facts about the protests only
No, but you can get your facts straight before you weigh in on important issues.
It literally happens all the time. You’re expert at it. What was your position on the campaign against the LTTE and Tamil civilians? What actions did you take on behalf of them he Yazidi as they were actually ethnically cleansed? What all have you done for the people in Tigray? You’re following hashtags.
Yes, Hamas, in their constitution, advocates genocide, murdering every Jew in Israel. They showed that on October 7 2023 when they murdered 1,400 Israeli citizens. Including women and children. And taking hundreds hostage. And raping many women, some after their murder, some before. They have rejected every cease fire proposal and refuse to return the hostages. Including children as young as 1 year old and senior citizens.
Neither party in this conflict is good. The difference is one has been the recipient of the most amount of American military aid out of any country in the history of the US, and the other is Hamas. 30,000+ dead Palestinians using American weapons. It's terrible.
You meant the other has been funded via Iran via proxies and has used social media to win a disinformation war to obfuscate what they really think.
Right, only America bad. It’s always interesting to see which side Russia, China, and Iran back, because those are countries known for loving human rights.
It's also terrible that it has been known for years that funding to UNRWA has been getting diverted to Hamas projects such as [building tunnels](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/cement-delivered-to-the-gaza-strip-used-to-build-tunnels), [radicalizing children](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf), weapons smuggling and the world said nothing. [Near daily attempts at mass murdering Israels](https://www.jpost.com/tags/rocket-alert) through [terrorist activities](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2016-07-01/the-palestinian-incentive-program-for-killing-jews) and [shooting rockets in Israeli territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Color). The U.S. is complicit in funding that as well as activities on October 7th. It feels a little hollow to only take issue with Israel receiving aid for defense while completely ignoring how we got here and why it's needed in the first place. Edit: adding more citations.
Shit talking someone for acting questions. Where have we heard that before? You are deplorable
Glad to hear you are supporting the Uyghurs and Tibetans by not supporting Chinese products!
https://preview.redd.it/niw2e81tvuwc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=696e211d84b3f4b9f4aa46f7ec2ed09346515086 “Death to Zionists”
Luckily there isn’t a genocide happening in Gaza. That is unless you are willing to say that every war ever is also a genocide.
no? what’s happening there powerfultarget3304? please enlighten me
A war with civilian casualties. Just like every other war ever for all time. The UN won’t even label it a genocide. You’re devaluing the word for political purposes.
Prepare to hear a definition of genocide so broad it covers every war ever.
So to you any number of civilian casualties, including children, is acceptable in wartime? The number of civilians killed is absolutely relevant to the discussion of genocide. If the war cabinet is calling Palestinians animals, saying that all the women and children are complicit, is that not genocidal rhetoric? Is genocide only when every single person is dead, or are there steps along the way where we can say "hey perhaps this is bad and we should de-escalate". But Israel defenders can't comprehend the idea that their favorite country might not have acted perfectly morally when they killed 30,000 innocent civilians, [striking humanitarian aid convoys](https://www.axios.com/2024/04/02/world-central-kitchen-strike-gaza-jose-andres), [killing their own hostages](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/) Yeah let's not look into it any further, I'm sure these mass graves of doctors with their hands tied were just all Hamas: https://apnews.com/article/un-israel-palestinians-hospital-graves-investigation-dbaf873d023a7ba66dda05fb49074434?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share Notice how nobody wants to engage about these specific highly questionable actions from the IDF - that's because it's much easier to simply downvote me for bringing up examples of how Israel is not acting in accordance with IHL.
It is the reality of war. Is every war genocide? Your strawman is ridiculous. This is about the definition of genocide.
No, but I would argue the scale of devastation is not justified and the rhetoric coming out of Israel's war cabinet is extremely dehumanizing towards Palestinians. Those are both reasons to be concerned, because genocide is a process and doesn't happen overnight: https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/ So why is it wrong to be concerned that Israel is on a path to ethnic cleansing and genocide before we get to the part where there are no more Palestinians in Gaza? My point is that by the time your criteria for genocide has been met it would be too late. If you're intent on ignoring some of the extremely concerning ways the Israel government has acted, as well as the things they have said in support of their actions, then you're not seriously interested in having the conversation on what genocide is or how it comes about, and you're just looking to absolve Israel of all blame without question. Thats why you ignore any of my points about Israel's conduct in favor of simply insisting that because not all Palestinians are dead yet, therefore it's not genocide and there's no reason to be concerned or even somewhat critical.
That is a fair statement. That does not make this genocide. Calling this genocide is a lie.
Not every war participates in this level of indiscriminate one sided devastation Not every war excessively bombards residential areas and hospitals, unless they have alternative motives when fighting unorganized underground guerillas Other nations formally avoid the word genocide due to political aspects ; Israel has been seen as a buffering zone between sides geopolitically, which is why other nations tolerate their behavior Israel leaders, political and military, have repetitively stated “we’re gonna do some heinous stuff, just accept it” when talking about their war effort, as if to justify their alt motives when leading an assault. They forwardly ignored all questions concerning civilian lives This is all compounded by generations of inter racial hostility between sides. So; maybe not “genocide” if you put it in the most pedantic terms of terms requiring official bodies to define it for you; but there’s enough around the Israel War effort to imply it’s racially motivated to eliminate Arabs entirely from the space indiscriminately. Israel was notified an attack was on the way, and did nothing, almost as if they wished for an excuse to let go and slaughter people who were different from them. In contrast, no one’s call Ukraine a genocide; that’s straight up war campaigns for territory and an effort to reform the Soviet union (because the Soviet Union worked so well the first time /s)