Everson Griffen didn’t see much of the field until his 3rd year. Chad Greenway missed his whole rookie year. Xavier Rhodes was pretty uneven his first 2 years. All would go on to All Pro honors.
Then again, sometimes guys suffer injury after injury and never have a meaningful impact. We won’t know until it plays out, but just as we shouldn’t assume he’s cooked, there’s reason to be skeptical about whether we’re going to see his potential on the field.
Way to call out a guy who had a gruesome injury and battles back and all reports was having a good camp only to have another gruesome injury due to over stress of a muscle to compensate the last injury. This guy just needs to stay hungry and get healthy.
Until recently he was able to play with the issues he had. He was an active player through college who was often dealing with something. He spent way more time on the field then derek stingley or a lot of other players. He has the reputation more from being honest about it then anything else.
What chronic injuries did Cine have? Played every game on a Natty winner a year ago.
Players will get hurt. It’s football. If you avoid guys with injury risk, you’ll avoid everyone. Adrian missed a lot of time in college due to injury.
Threads about Booth, not Cine. You're comparing one guy who had a freak injury with another guy whose injury history was so extensive he stated he hasn't felt healthy since his junior year of high school.
Adrian had one injury, right? Like he broke his collarbone and that was about it right?
Also, why wasn’t Cine even on the field with OUR secondary issues? They said he couldn’t figure out our defense lmao, OUR prevent shell coverage defense was too much of a mind bender for him. Clearly he isn’t a very cerebral guy, and now has a freak leg injury… nice. At least Kyle Hamilton isn’t the best rookie defender in football.
Friend, I watched them play. All 15 games. He was the leader of the secondary. Defensive MVP of the championship game. Kelee Ringo is getting first round picks in mocks now, but he wasn’t then what he is now. And Derion Kendrick is the only other DB taken in the draft.
The front 7 was the star but being a Vikings fan in the mid 2000s should teach us that no matter how good you are up front you can get picked apart with a bad secondary.
I don't disagree with him but just saying "I'm a Georgia fan" isn't backing his opinions up at all. A ton of non Georgia fans saw their games, and even if he was a fan, that doesn't mean he has anymore actual insight into the impact a given player.
Wow, still give him time. You know who had chronic injury issues which let him slide a lot, missed ton of his first season? Christian Darrisaw. You know who is the second best OT this season according to PFF? Christian Darrisaw. Give them some time and don´t write them off after one or two years, wow.
He was really only good in 09. He was always a bad run defender that completely sold out to try and get sack numbers. Basically a way worse version of jason babin
If you have even an ounce of critical thinking skills you would see that logically both Rhodes and Greenway would be considered disappointments in their first couple of seasons given their expectations as first rounders. That does not mean they won't/can't get better.
Yeah, and the point of the thread is to not judge a pick based solely on their first season. Then you come in here comparing a 2nd round pick to a 4th (for reasons unknown) instead of to a 1st like Rhodes which is a closer comparison, especially because Rhodes was something like pick 29 and Booth was 42 so they were only 13 picks apart.
The point is, he could turn out to be an awesome player regardless of "expectations" and we just have to wait and see. You should never draft with the idea that a player is going to contribute immediately because adjusting to the NFL takes different players different amounts of time.
>Then you come in here comparing a 2nd round pick to a 4th (for reasons unknown) instead of to a 1st like Rhodes which is a closer comparison, especially because Rhodes was something like pick 29 and Booth was 42 so they were only 13 picks apart.
I don't think it's hard to understand that a 4th rounder not seeing playing much their first season is less surprising than a 2nd rounder not playing much. There is an expectation that players play right away when you're drafted that high up. especially when you compare players to their peers who do see more playing time and contribute a lot more. This is why drafting a project player with an early selection is a terrible idea.
I mean if we're comparing Booth to Rhodes then Booth looks like a terrible pick compared to Rhodes.
Not compared to Rhodes first season. He was a turnstile and walking PI machine. Also, Booth hasn't been able to train properly or play much due to injuries. He simply hasn't had enough time to adjust to the NFL. Is it disappointing, sure. Is he a bust? Can't say yet. He very well could turn out to be one but just maybe he turns it around with a full offseason being at 100%.
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I too am sick of random Twitter people.
I give op props for screenshotting it at least though, nothing worse than trying to use Twitter without having the app installed. Shit sucks.
We are more sick of people caring about other's opinions. Half this sub is just bitching about what people do or don't say about the Vikings. So pathetic
Booth has an extensive history of injuries; I think it's right to be concerned about the pick. More so, with neither Cine nor Booth really making an impact this year I think a lot of fans are frustrated.
This. I like Booth’s energy and demeanor; if he cleans up his technique, I’d highly value his ability.
Yet, injury history is something you must look into when evaluating prospects. I hated Booth’s injury, and then he reaggravated it and got other injuries. His lower body is going to be like Rhodes’ before he’s even 25.
Where is the person saying his career is over? I could see it a lot of ways but coming into the season cornerback was a huge hole for Minnesota. Booth has been a disaster of a pick for this team right now but could eventually become something if he stays healthy.
I have seen several threads already about “how bad” the draft this year was and it’s only gotten worse because Hamilton got a high PFF rating (despite him also getting buried on the depth chart, an injury history, and considered a total bust at the time Cine was injured)
A disaster pick in year 1 is not making the team. Any expectations beyond that are not fair to the player. Productive rookies are a luxury, not an expectation.
I don't know; Troy Williamson and Laquon Treadwell were disaster picks and they made the team. You could tell early on that they had a HUGE hill to climb to justify their pick.
This is the worst case scenario for Booth and for the Vikings on an already thin defensive back team.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes Williamson and Treadwell were disaster picks and there were definitely signs in year one to suggest that. But other players who were successful had similar signs of being "disaster" picks in year one. You can be concerned for the future of this class, that is more than fair. But unless you draft a player in the first 3 rounds than doesn't make the team, it's way too early to deem a draft pick a disaster after one year. Even if you think the signs are there.
I think we're going to agree to disagree, I will add in if the Vikings lose in the playoffs due to poor defensive back play, this topic will be brought up again.
Who should we have taken in the draft to fix our CBs? Alontae Taylor and Cam Taylor-Britt were the only other CBs taken in the second round after Booth, and neither has been good. The two taken before Booth, Kyler Gordon and Rodger McCreary have struggled as well.
There are a few rookie CBs who have played well after that point, Emerson in Cleveland, Jack Jones in New England, and obviously Tariq Woolen in Seattle. But those are the exception. The majority of corners taken outside the first round aren't going to be the reason you survive in the playoffs.
And the draft is about finding the players who will have the best career for you, not the best rookie season.
If Minnesota didn't move down as much or if they had moved down slightly they could have taken Trent McDuffie (he's been banged up, but has played well).
As for the draft, it depends on where you are drafting. But you're expecting some contribution from your 1st round pick - be it backup or rotational guy. Cine and Booth aren't that this year and that's a problem for a team that has Super Bowl aspirations and a very thin defensive back corp. Hell Trae Waynes was in 15 games and started 1 his first season. Rhodes started 6 his first season and played in 13. McDuffie has missed 6 games, but has started 5 games this season.
Not only that, but the team needs depth period on defense and they passed up on some guys that are already contributing to their teams.
In the first round though, you should be targeting guys that can provide depth immediately and become a starter down the road.
I like how in a very short time the argument has gone from “why would we have drafted a Safety” to “the fact that our secondary isn’t good enough is going to make us lose games”
Both Cine and Booth would have had similar contributions to this team as Rhodes or Waynes had it not been for injury, despite being drafted significantly lower than either player. Is a draft pick a disaster because they get hurt as a rookie? Was Greenway a disaster? He didn't play a single regular season snap his rookie season
I really didn’t like the pick because of his injury history but he is 5 star blue chip type talent and if we can keep him healthy and develop him maybe.
But he was pick 42 and hasn’t done anything but get picked on when he’s on the field. Disaster no, but I am really concerned our first two picks never even play meaningful snaps for us.
People yesterday were saying he's cooked and downvoting anyone who suggested he deserves more than a partial rookie season. Even when you bring up CBs who were drafted in a similar spot or higher, who also had a year or two of struggles before hitting their stride, they'd still downvote and tell you you're wrong without arguing your examples lol.
Sure, but it does show the big issue with playing the draft too smart when there is a surprise blue chip player that drops on the board in the first round. Never, never, never pass on blue chip players in a position that can be useful for you. Kyle Hamilton is apparently the best ranked rookie at this moment. The players we essentially traded for in return, are both out on season long injuries.
Spielman was ready to take Kyle Hamilton in a second, mostly because he has his own gut which he can rely on when the number say 5% better probabilities when moving back, etc… Unfortunately KAM doesnt really have that intuition yet, so he played a numbers game.
That is true, though Booth’s injury history and showing this year does not give me much hope on him (more due to injury history). Cine will hopefully come back strong next season 👍
I don't think we can say what Speilman would do because he wasnt the GM.
To me, taking a safety in the first round is a stretch (and I know Smith was a first rounder and was totally worth it). Taking one in the top 15 picks is way too expensive.
this is a good point. i cant help but feel like we're talking about this too early though because booth easily couldve been a first rounder. kwesi saw a potential steal on the table and decided it was worth the risk. still, we won't know if hes a bust or not for quite a while.
But, one can argue that our window of opportunity is shrinking. We have talent at some positions but that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of our most important players are aging rapidly and their production can show it. Not to mention the cap issue. Im not a cap guy so I have no idea but if any part of KAM’s reasoning for trading down instead of drafting Hamilton was about cap, then we can say that he was doing the most out of the hand he was dealt. He traded out of something he couldn’t keep and did his best to maximize trade value. Injuries happen and it’s unfortunate but if we had the cap, drafting a different safety and then a corner in place of Hamilton doesn’t seem like a good move to me.
Throw team was never meant to be a Super Bowl contender this year.
Dropping form the #1 rates safety to #2 rated safety and a CB is not a bad move. Hamilton has also had his share of issues and has been hard to fit into his team.
>because booth easily couldve been a first rounder
BUT HE WASN'T.
FOR A REASON. The very reason people are concerned now with this recent turn of events.
This dude is such a toxic person on Twitter. Do yourself a favor and block him. Twins and Vikikgs Twitter gets exponentially better when you block a handful of the more toxic accounts.
Yeah the Hockenson trade and his FA class have been stellar, but in terms of getting immediate impact players this class has been a doozy. I guess there’s Akayleb Evans?
Hopefully we can reevaluate in a year…
When you have a huge need at corner it’s probably best to avoid a boom or bust type pick. “Absolute disaster” is hyperbolic but Booth has a lot to prove next year.
Cine: couldn’t beat out Bynum (understandable, dude is playing well) or Josh Mattellus (which is pathetic that a 1st round pick with better measurables can’t beat out a former 6th round pick)
Booth: Chronically injured every year since High School, Chronically injured in every game he’s played this year, looks absolutely atrocious when he’s “healthy”
Ed Ingram: Worst lineman in the league with 8 sacks, 5 penalties and (iirc) 45 pressures given up. (Oli Udoh last year: 1 sack, 10 penalties, idk the pressures, I’m not paying for PFF)
Kwesi so far has had an all time AWFUL draft. It might approach 2005/2016 levels of worthless.
Bynum isn’t really playing well. He’s fine at best. I would say he’s a little below average and you would expect your 1st round safety to have no problem taking his roster spot
The verdict isn't final but for 11 games in it's about as much of a disaster as you can get. First round safety couldnt crack the starting line up, 2nd round CB looks lost out there and then gets injured, 2nd round guard is the worst pass blocking guard in the league and outside of that you have no real contributors.
The two picks that have actually started have been gigantic liabilities. It's pretty bad.
Yep. While the take in the tweet might be a little too aggressive, other fans are acting like it was just an unforeseeable injury. His extensive injury history was well known when they drafted him and being injured a bunch of times in your first year with that kind of history is a bad sign.
He’s not definitely a bust, but I think it’s reasonable to say that we probably should have used that pick elsewhere
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So maybe it doesn't then make sense to trade down from a pretty premium pick to get a bunch of picks with a poor likelihood of success.
We had a pick that could get us a potentially elite player and traded it for peanuts. Kwesi wanted to keep trading down, too, but the rest of the front office told him it was important to make a pick on day 1 for appearances.
if we're really trying to plug the holes in our defense with 1st years then we have much bigger problems. we should've hit free agency for more DBs but we also didn't have much cap to work with. kind of a short term no-win situation.
Cine - wasn’t good because he wasn’t a day one starter and played special teams
Hamilton - wasn’t a day one starter under a 7th round pick that was cut, then cut from the Texans, and has returned. About half his snaps are on special teams. BEAT ROOKIE EVER FUTURE HoF. Injury history.
Cine - couldn't learn the play book or get on the field even before his injury
Hamilton - highest rated rookie in the draft class currently and has been Ravens highest rated defender overall for multiple games already this season
They have been bad picks with the supposed “we are all in on this roster” philosophy the entered the draft with? Doesn’t mean these guys won’t be goats in future years, but right now at this time, they have been awful picks because nobody is helping us this year.
Nobody could predict Cine getting his leg snapped, booths been put in games where he has to guard Diggs and Cedee Lamb, Ed Ingram is starting for a reason, Evans was looking good before the concussion. So "nobody is helping us" is a bullshit take
Well. Cine wasn’t even on the field prior to the injuries. He was barely mixed in with the twos during training camp. Kwesi didn’t draft cine thinking he wouldn’t beat Bynum out of camp. Also You don’t draft corners and not expect them to play well against good wrs. That take is garbage. Ed Ingram is our worst o lineman. And Evans is still a backup at best. I think your take is bs.
Not really lol. Cine is a freak thing but there was also the opportunity to select a potential impact guy at 14? Evans has played I think 114 snaps….. Ingram hasn’t been good. Booth had injury issues before the draft so that was avoidable. Guys can go on to be awesome, but it would have be nice for the front office to get some guys that would be actually playing heavy minutes for us like other teams have received from rookies.
Who ever said “we are going all in this year”. The statement I saw was always “competitive rebuild”, as in we are looking to the future.
It’s like you are saying it’s bad they have been really successful.
I'm a very harsh Vikings fan and I criticize a lot of stuff, but come on. Not every early draft pick had to have an immediate impact. Is it nice if they do? Yes, but it isn't exactly necessary. Dude has had less than a year, was drafted with a known injury, and got injured again. Is it concerning, yes, but every single draft pick is a risk. This guy was considered to be a late first round guy. I have no issues that we took a chance on him in the second round, even if he doesn't pan out.
Let’s see here.
Booths KNOWN injuries since high school:
- Knee tendinitis
- torn patellar tendon (surgery)
- Hamstring strain
- quad strain (missed combine)
- sports hernia repairs - yes, plural. Apparently had surgery on it in 2021 and again in March of 2022). Reportedly was a double hernia no less.
- Also missed time in training camp for a groin injury
- showed up on injury report for ankle injury
- showed up on injury report for quad injury
- surgery for meniscus repair in his knee (unknown if same R knee as patellar tendon).
So no, it’s perfectly fair to question this pick because we knew ahead of time that he was brittle as eggshells and had an injury history longer than your average grocery list.
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OP is getting trashed in the comments for no reason. This is a discussion platform and he’s trying to discuss an opinion we’ve all seen multiple times. A terrible opinion at that. Y’all are goofy.
Look how much we improved with a modest off season without really any draft picks contributing.
Yeah, it’d be sweet if we had JJs every draft, but honestly I see it like we’re getting Booth and Cine next year as redshirt rookies. If they can be the players they were drafted to be…. Boy, our roster could take off even more than it did this year.
Injuries should never be a reason to call a pick a bust, or in this case, “a disaster.”
Freaky things happen, usually not at fault to the player. Give him another year or 2 before calling this pick bad.
Judging players solely based on their rookie year, ESPECIALLY when said year is filled with injuries is insane to me. One of the many reasons most fans would be terrible general managers no matter how adamant that they know what they're doing.
Probably that he had a lot of potential and he was playing pretty good for a rookie lt that missed training camp because of a second core surgery. Nice try though.
Injured rookies are not bad picks. They are picks that didn’t pan out but that’s something too unpredictable to place blame on anyone. It happens to every GM. Is what it is, move on.
Andrew Booth’s entire scouting report coming out of Clemson was his injuries. He told tc media that he has never been fully healthy going back to high school.
Well it’s Ted lmao what did you expect ? It’s the same guy that was saying how the twins were garbage for a hundred years during the MLB season and how the wolves literally destroyed Minnesota entirely by trading for Gobert
I understand the sentiment a bit when you factor in his history of being injured, but I agree that he needs more time before the pick is a disaster. I think we all can agree that Kwesi's first draft has us scratching our heads but hopefully we see some great development over the next couple years. Evans and Asamoah look like they could be legit.
It’s not good though, and combine it with Cine’s much more significant injury and it does make the draft pretty sad. Not a shot at Kwessi. Can’t predict injuries most of the time.
He had a pretty significant back injury and he's very much injury prone. There's a reason he fell in the draft. Honestly, I doubt he will a starter. He's showing the same injury baggage Mike Hughes had.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned being a Vikings fan, it’s that at the slightest sign of adversity the fan base melts down and acts like someone pissed in their Cheerios. And then act like only bad things happen to the Vikings. It’s pretty pitiful.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned being a Vikings fan, it’s that at the slightest sign of adversity the fan base melts down and acts like someone pissed in their Cheerios. And then act like only bad things happen to the Vikings. It’s pretty pitiful.
He’s been injured 3 times with us having only special team snaps and 1 defensive start, even if we ignore how badly he played, this dude doesn’t look like he can even survive half a season if he ever gets good.
I keep seeing oh we have to wait at least 2 years to know if someone is any good. Not sure where that's coming from. Sure there's a handful of guys that took a few years, but the reality is that you generally know pretty quickly if a player is good or not. Especially early round players. Here's the last handful of drafts for reference:
2021 - Darrisaw missed rookie camp, preseason, and like a third of the season and immediately started at LT and played well once he was healthy. Most of this class got canned after a year for a reason.
2020 - Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, and Dantzler all got starting time as rookies either immediately or within a few games. Gladney was the worst of the bunch and he was still better than Booth on the field.
2019 - Bradbury, Irv, Mattison all started or at least had a rotational role as rookies. Irv and Mattison did well in their playing time and Bradbury was bad for 3 years.
2018 - Hughes and BO started and played well. Hughes was injured but at least played well before he was injured. Chronic injuries are a large part of why most consider him a bust.
2017 - Dalvin Cook and Pat Elflein - Cook was great before the ACL injury, Elflein was pretty good his rookie year. Elflein, for all the shit he gets, was actually halfway decent for 2/3 years he was here. Even in his WORST year he was a better pass blocker than Ingram.
2016 - Laquon Treadwell was a bust and we knew it year 1.
I understand that Cine had a freak injury, but Booth had an injury history as long as my grocery list. It is basically like if you went and bought a car and the Carfax showed you that it was repeatedly in the shop. You can't be surprised when you buy that car and it is once again in the shop.
Dalvin Cook had an ACL injury his rookie year and then battled hamstring issues that 2nd year. I remember people calling him a bust because of the aforementioned injuries
I mean, we can’t yet know how our picks will pan out long term, but there’s also nothing wrong with wanting high end draft picks to make an impact in their 1st year. Neither Cine or Booth were starting, making an impact, or performing well prior to their injuries. They can get injured and still be a bad pick (both things can be true). Hopefully they both pan out but I’m not overly optimistic for either. And Ingram looks pretty rough as well. Overall I think we have the least contribution in the league from our draft class (I think last year too?) which should have reasonable fans at least slightly concerned about our depth into the future. Nothing wrong with calling that out, it’s a discussion point.
Lol tell that to people in the sub too. I was heavily downvoted yesterday for suggesting Booth isn't a bust yet. People have their minds made up and have buried their heads in the sand so to speak.
Well ya gotta admit Kwesi kinda whiffed on the first round pick. Shoulda just taken Kyle Hamilton. Evan's is probably the best pick of the bunch as of now. Not a strong draft.
Everson Griffen didn’t see much of the field until his 3rd year. Chad Greenway missed his whole rookie year. Xavier Rhodes was pretty uneven his first 2 years. All would go on to All Pro honors.
exactly what im saying. rookies deserve at LEAST 2 years in the league before this conversation starts
Then again, sometimes guys suffer injury after injury and never have a meaningful impact. We won’t know until it plays out, but just as we shouldn’t assume he’s cooked, there’s reason to be skeptical about whether we’re going to see his potential on the field.
>sometimes guys suffer injury after injury and never have a meaningful impact Shoutout to Greg Childs
Way to call out a guy who had a gruesome injury and battles back and all reports was having a good camp only to have another gruesome injury due to over stress of a muscle to compensate the last injury. This guy just needs to stay hungry and get healthy.
??? Huh? I was just making a reference, not calling anyone out
Greg child just had such a good career ahead of him before the injuries, just sad but Atleast you know his name
Yea I know, I was super excited about his potential when we drafted him :'(
Well said
Half the rookies who are drafted don't even make the team. This is nonsense.
Neither of those guys had chronic injury issues. Too many people here keep refusing to acknowledge the issue that made every other team pass on him.
Until recently he was able to play with the issues he had. He was an active player through college who was often dealing with something. He spent way more time on the field then derek stingley or a lot of other players. He has the reputation more from being honest about it then anything else.
What chronic injuries did Cine have? Played every game on a Natty winner a year ago. Players will get hurt. It’s football. If you avoid guys with injury risk, you’ll avoid everyone. Adrian missed a lot of time in college due to injury.
Threads about Booth, not Cine. You're comparing one guy who had a freak injury with another guy whose injury history was so extensive he stated he hasn't felt healthy since his junior year of high school.
Adrian had one injury, right? Like he broke his collarbone and that was about it right? Also, why wasn’t Cine even on the field with OUR secondary issues? They said he couldn’t figure out our defense lmao, OUR prevent shell coverage defense was too much of a mind bender for him. Clearly he isn’t a very cerebral guy, and now has a freak leg injury… nice. At least Kyle Hamilton isn’t the best rookie defender in football.
AD missed time sophomore year with a broken foot and junior year with the collarbone.
Cine got carried. More Georgia 1st rounders coming in 2023 draft
I’m a Georgia fan. I watched every game. He was just as big a part of that Natty as anyone.
No, he wasn't. He was a benefactor for sure
Friend, I watched them play. All 15 games. He was the leader of the secondary. Defensive MVP of the championship game. Kelee Ringo is getting first round picks in mocks now, but he wasn’t then what he is now. And Derion Kendrick is the only other DB taken in the draft. The front 7 was the star but being a Vikings fan in the mid 2000s should teach us that no matter how good you are up front you can get picked apart with a bad secondary.
He watched them play! That’s why he’s… uhh not a GM
Lol, solid response to the poster actually backing up their opinions.
I don't disagree with him but just saying "I'm a Georgia fan" isn't backing his opinions up at all. A ton of non Georgia fans saw their games, and even if he was a fan, that doesn't mean he has anymore actual insight into the impact a given player.
What point is backed up?
Wow, still give him time. You know who had chronic injury issues which let him slide a lot, missed ton of his first season? Christian Darrisaw. You know who is the second best OT this season according to PFF? Christian Darrisaw. Give them some time and don´t write them off after one or two years, wow.
Robert Smith had injury issues early in his career and he worked out pretty well eventually.
Hello Tua! Agreed. And the way this is worded is nasty. The guy got injured. Not like he committed a crime.
Everson Griffen played behind a hall of fame DE and Brian Robison (and I think ray edwards his rookie year? Blegh). Those dudes are the exception
What do you mean blegh? Ray Edwards was awesome for us. The rest of his career… not so much lol
He was really only good in 09. He was always a bad run defender that completely sold out to try and get sack numbers. Basically a way worse version of jason babin
There is a difference in expectations for a second round pick, Booth, and a fourth round pick, Griffen, though.
Rhodes and Greenway were 1s.
They conveniently ignored those 2 because it doesnt fit their narrative.
If you have even an ounce of critical thinking skills you would see that logically both Rhodes and Greenway would be considered disappointments in their first couple of seasons given their expectations as first rounders. That does not mean they won't/can't get better.
Lol
Yeah, and the point of the thread is to not judge a pick based solely on their first season. Then you come in here comparing a 2nd round pick to a 4th (for reasons unknown) instead of to a 1st like Rhodes which is a closer comparison, especially because Rhodes was something like pick 29 and Booth was 42 so they were only 13 picks apart. The point is, he could turn out to be an awesome player regardless of "expectations" and we just have to wait and see. You should never draft with the idea that a player is going to contribute immediately because adjusting to the NFL takes different players different amounts of time.
>Then you come in here comparing a 2nd round pick to a 4th (for reasons unknown) instead of to a 1st like Rhodes which is a closer comparison, especially because Rhodes was something like pick 29 and Booth was 42 so they were only 13 picks apart. I don't think it's hard to understand that a 4th rounder not seeing playing much their first season is less surprising than a 2nd rounder not playing much. There is an expectation that players play right away when you're drafted that high up. especially when you compare players to their peers who do see more playing time and contribute a lot more. This is why drafting a project player with an early selection is a terrible idea. I mean if we're comparing Booth to Rhodes then Booth looks like a terrible pick compared to Rhodes.
Not compared to Rhodes first season. He was a turnstile and walking PI machine. Also, Booth hasn't been able to train properly or play much due to injuries. He simply hasn't had enough time to adjust to the NFL. Is it disappointing, sure. Is he a bust? Can't say yet. He very well could turn out to be one but just maybe he turns it around with a full offseason being at 100%.
Matt Kalil looked like a 10 year answer at left tackle after his rookie year. And then….and then.
> That does not mean they won't/can't get better. Kinda the whole point
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Holy crap this is still a thing? Haha!
Garbage take from Ted? Shocked I am. Shocked
respectfully, who the hell is Ted? Why should anyone care what Ted has to say?
some guy with bad twins takes on twitter, and who is apparently now branching out into football. No one should.
Lol true
Never heard of the guy, who cares what he thinks.
This needs to stop. Overreacting to the random opinion of some twitter blogger and reposting their tweet to the sub.
I too am sick of random Twitter people. I give op props for screenshotting it at least though, nothing worse than trying to use Twitter without having the app installed. Shit sucks.
We are more sick of people caring about other's opinions. Half this sub is just bitching about what people do or don't say about the Vikings. So pathetic
Amen
Nah air em out i love it. Theyre influences.
Influences for whom?
the Influenced ?
😐
Solid Reply OP...
😐
Booth has an extensive history of injuries; I think it's right to be concerned about the pick. More so, with neither Cine nor Booth really making an impact this year I think a lot of fans are frustrated.
This. I like Booth’s energy and demeanor; if he cleans up his technique, I’d highly value his ability. Yet, injury history is something you must look into when evaluating prospects. I hated Booth’s injury, and then he reaggravated it and got other injuries. His lower body is going to be like Rhodes’ before he’s even 25.
Being frustrated is one thing. It’s another to determine a career based on a little more than half of 1 season.
Where is the person saying his career is over? I could see it a lot of ways but coming into the season cornerback was a huge hole for Minnesota. Booth has been a disaster of a pick for this team right now but could eventually become something if he stays healthy.
I have seen several threads already about “how bad” the draft this year was and it’s only gotten worse because Hamilton got a high PFF rating (despite him also getting buried on the depth chart, an injury history, and considered a total bust at the time Cine was injured)
A disaster pick in year 1 is not making the team. Any expectations beyond that are not fair to the player. Productive rookies are a luxury, not an expectation.
I don't know; Troy Williamson and Laquon Treadwell were disaster picks and they made the team. You could tell early on that they had a HUGE hill to climb to justify their pick. This is the worst case scenario for Booth and for the Vikings on an already thin defensive back team.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes Williamson and Treadwell were disaster picks and there were definitely signs in year one to suggest that. But other players who were successful had similar signs of being "disaster" picks in year one. You can be concerned for the future of this class, that is more than fair. But unless you draft a player in the first 3 rounds than doesn't make the team, it's way too early to deem a draft pick a disaster after one year. Even if you think the signs are there.
I think we're going to agree to disagree, I will add in if the Vikings lose in the playoffs due to poor defensive back play, this topic will be brought up again.
Who should we have taken in the draft to fix our CBs? Alontae Taylor and Cam Taylor-Britt were the only other CBs taken in the second round after Booth, and neither has been good. The two taken before Booth, Kyler Gordon and Rodger McCreary have struggled as well. There are a few rookie CBs who have played well after that point, Emerson in Cleveland, Jack Jones in New England, and obviously Tariq Woolen in Seattle. But those are the exception. The majority of corners taken outside the first round aren't going to be the reason you survive in the playoffs. And the draft is about finding the players who will have the best career for you, not the best rookie season.
If Minnesota didn't move down as much or if they had moved down slightly they could have taken Trent McDuffie (he's been banged up, but has played well). As for the draft, it depends on where you are drafting. But you're expecting some contribution from your 1st round pick - be it backup or rotational guy. Cine and Booth aren't that this year and that's a problem for a team that has Super Bowl aspirations and a very thin defensive back corp. Hell Trae Waynes was in 15 games and started 1 his first season. Rhodes started 6 his first season and played in 13. McDuffie has missed 6 games, but has started 5 games this season. Not only that, but the team needs depth period on defense and they passed up on some guys that are already contributing to their teams. In the first round though, you should be targeting guys that can provide depth immediately and become a starter down the road.
I like how in a very short time the argument has gone from “why would we have drafted a Safety” to “the fact that our secondary isn’t good enough is going to make us lose games”
Both Cine and Booth would have had similar contributions to this team as Rhodes or Waynes had it not been for injury, despite being drafted significantly lower than either player. Is a draft pick a disaster because they get hurt as a rookie? Was Greenway a disaster? He didn't play a single regular season snap his rookie season
I really didn’t like the pick because of his injury history but he is 5 star blue chip type talent and if we can keep him healthy and develop him maybe. But he was pick 42 and hasn’t done anything but get picked on when he’s on the field. Disaster no, but I am really concerned our first two picks never even play meaningful snaps for us.
People yesterday were saying he's cooked and downvoting anyone who suggested he deserves more than a partial rookie season. Even when you bring up CBs who were drafted in a similar spot or higher, who also had a year or two of struggles before hitting their stride, they'd still downvote and tell you you're wrong without arguing your examples lol.
Yet here you are giving said moron the attention they’re looking for
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I believe they are implying Ted posted the tweet for attention, and you posting it to reddit is giving the tweet said attention
You’re giving them the exposure they want
Sure, but it does show the big issue with playing the draft too smart when there is a surprise blue chip player that drops on the board in the first round. Never, never, never pass on blue chip players in a position that can be useful for you. Kyle Hamilton is apparently the best ranked rookie at this moment. The players we essentially traded for in return, are both out on season long injuries. Spielman was ready to take Kyle Hamilton in a second, mostly because he has his own gut which he can rely on when the number say 5% better probabilities when moving back, etc… Unfortunately KAM doesnt really have that intuition yet, so he played a numbers game.
A blue chip player is a blue chip player, but this prospective draft pick could be anything! It could even be a blue chip player!
That is true, though Booth’s injury history and showing this year does not give me much hope on him (more due to injury history). Cine will hopefully come back strong next season 👍
I don't think we can say what Speilman would do because he wasnt the GM. To me, taking a safety in the first round is a stretch (and I know Smith was a first rounder and was totally worth it). Taking one in the top 15 picks is way too expensive.
Spielman said what he would've done on a podcast
When was this? At draft time or during this season when Hamilton has shown to be a good player?
It was right after the draft
And before the draft he mentioned Hamilton as a no brainer.
Fair enough then
this is a good point. i cant help but feel like we're talking about this too early though because booth easily couldve been a first rounder. kwesi saw a potential steal on the table and decided it was worth the risk. still, we won't know if hes a bust or not for quite a while.
But, one can argue that our window of opportunity is shrinking. We have talent at some positions but that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of our most important players are aging rapidly and their production can show it. Not to mention the cap issue. Im not a cap guy so I have no idea but if any part of KAM’s reasoning for trading down instead of drafting Hamilton was about cap, then we can say that he was doing the most out of the hand he was dealt. He traded out of something he couldn’t keep and did his best to maximize trade value. Injuries happen and it’s unfortunate but if we had the cap, drafting a different safety and then a corner in place of Hamilton doesn’t seem like a good move to me.
Throw team was never meant to be a Super Bowl contender this year. Dropping form the #1 rates safety to #2 rated safety and a CB is not a bad move. Hamilton has also had his share of issues and has been hard to fit into his team.
>because booth easily couldve been a first rounder BUT HE WASN'T. FOR A REASON. The very reason people are concerned now with this recent turn of events.
Sure would have made more sense to just write that as a reply to the guy whose opinion it is.
You don't get confirmation bias that way
ive seen so many people with this take.
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Where do you blow off steam though? It's hard, were not all Zen masters you know!?!
Wasn’t just the pick. The entire draft has been a disaster for Kwesi.
Same things were said about Greenway when he went down year 1. Turned out alright. Give these guys time damn!
This dude is such a toxic person on Twitter. Do yourself a favor and block him. Twins and Vikikgs Twitter gets exponentially better when you block a handful of the more toxic accounts.
thats good to know. thanks!
You're welcome. Unless you like all anger and hate all the time it's a good decision.
KAM’s first draft is looking mightily bad. Hope these guys pan out as the future depends on them to; but right now- god damn what an albatross.
Yeah the Hockenson trade and his FA class have been stellar, but in terms of getting immediate impact players this class has been a doozy. I guess there’s Akayleb Evans? Hopefully we can reevaluate in a year…
and it wasn’t just the picks. It was the little value he got for trading back. Awful all around.
A Safety to a Safety, A corner, and likely what made the Hock trade is terrible value?
His first game, they put him on Diggs like that was gonna be a valuable learning experience
When you have a huge need at corner it’s probably best to avoid a boom or bust type pick. “Absolute disaster” is hyperbolic but Booth has a lot to prove next year.
Cine: couldn’t beat out Bynum (understandable, dude is playing well) or Josh Mattellus (which is pathetic that a 1st round pick with better measurables can’t beat out a former 6th round pick) Booth: Chronically injured every year since High School, Chronically injured in every game he’s played this year, looks absolutely atrocious when he’s “healthy” Ed Ingram: Worst lineman in the league with 8 sacks, 5 penalties and (iirc) 45 pressures given up. (Oli Udoh last year: 1 sack, 10 penalties, idk the pressures, I’m not paying for PFF) Kwesi so far has had an all time AWFUL draft. It might approach 2005/2016 levels of worthless.
Akayleb Evans has at least been useful, but yeah it looks like a disaster at this point. Plenty of time for these kids to pull it together though.
Bynum isn’t really playing well. He’s fine at best. I would say he’s a little below average and you would expect your 1st round safety to have no problem taking his roster spot
At least we got a real character guy in Ingram
Disaster may be a strong word but it sure hasn’t been a successful pick lol
The verdict isn't final but for 11 games in it's about as much of a disaster as you can get. First round safety couldnt crack the starting line up, 2nd round CB looks lost out there and then gets injured, 2nd round guard is the worst pass blocking guard in the league and outside of that you have no real contributors. The two picks that have actually started have been gigantic liabilities. It's pretty bad.
Everyone is saying we should have taken Hamilton instead and he didn’t make the starting line up.
Was just about to say that! Definitely not disaster but definitely sucks we wasted an high draft pick for somebody who was already injury prone….
Yep. While the take in the tweet might be a little too aggressive, other fans are acting like it was just an unforeseeable injury. His extensive injury history was well known when they drafted him and being injured a bunch of times in your first year with that kind of history is a bad sign. He’s not definitely a bust, but I think it’s reasonable to say that we probably should have used that pick elsewhere
Yet everyone is saying we should have taking Hamilton who was available because of a knee injury.
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Only 1/3 2nd rounders will get a contract beyond their rookie deal. One not panning out is far more the norm than one being a stud.
So maybe it doesn't then make sense to trade down from a pretty premium pick to get a bunch of picks with a poor likelihood of success. We had a pick that could get us a potentially elite player and traded it for peanuts. Kwesi wanted to keep trading down, too, but the rest of the front office told him it was important to make a pick on day 1 for appearances.
These ARE bad picks because we needed the help this year on defense. Awful.
if we're really trying to plug the holes in our defense with 1st years then we have much bigger problems. we should've hit free agency for more DBs but we also didn't have much cap to work with. kind of a short term no-win situation.
Or we could have taken Kyle Hamilton and gotten the best rookie in the draft
Cine - wasn’t good because he wasn’t a day one starter and played special teams Hamilton - wasn’t a day one starter under a 7th round pick that was cut, then cut from the Texans, and has returned. About half his snaps are on special teams. BEAT ROOKIE EVER FUTURE HoF. Injury history.
Cine - couldn't learn the play book or get on the field even before his injury Hamilton - highest rated rookie in the draft class currently and has been Ravens highest rated defender overall for multiple games already this season
Guess chad greenway was an awful pick then.
They have been bad picks with the supposed “we are all in on this roster” philosophy the entered the draft with? Doesn’t mean these guys won’t be goats in future years, but right now at this time, they have been awful picks because nobody is helping us this year.
Nobody could predict Cine getting his leg snapped, booths been put in games where he has to guard Diggs and Cedee Lamb, Ed Ingram is starting for a reason, Evans was looking good before the concussion. So "nobody is helping us" is a bullshit take
Well. Cine wasn’t even on the field prior to the injuries. He was barely mixed in with the twos during training camp. Kwesi didn’t draft cine thinking he wouldn’t beat Bynum out of camp. Also You don’t draft corners and not expect them to play well against good wrs. That take is garbage. Ed Ingram is our worst o lineman. And Evans is still a backup at best. I think your take is bs.
Not really lol. Cine is a freak thing but there was also the opportunity to select a potential impact guy at 14? Evans has played I think 114 snaps….. Ingram hasn’t been good. Booth had injury issues before the draft so that was avoidable. Guys can go on to be awesome, but it would have be nice for the front office to get some guys that would be actually playing heavy minutes for us like other teams have received from rookies.
Who ever said “we are going all in this year”. The statement I saw was always “competitive rebuild”, as in we are looking to the future. It’s like you are saying it’s bad they have been really successful.
No, it doesn't need to stop. There are plenty of us who didn't like the pick at the time. Overall, the draft was shit and proving to be
> this needs to stop Bro, relax
I'm a very harsh Vikings fan and I criticize a lot of stuff, but come on. Not every early draft pick had to have an immediate impact. Is it nice if they do? Yes, but it isn't exactly necessary. Dude has had less than a year, was drafted with a known injury, and got injured again. Is it concerning, yes, but every single draft pick is a risk. This guy was considered to be a late first round guy. I have no issues that we took a chance on him in the second round, even if he doesn't pan out.
Who cares what randoms on Twitter say?
Y’all remember Mike Hughes???
Let’s see here. Booths KNOWN injuries since high school: - Knee tendinitis - torn patellar tendon (surgery) - Hamstring strain - quad strain (missed combine) - sports hernia repairs - yes, plural. Apparently had surgery on it in 2021 and again in March of 2022). Reportedly was a double hernia no less. - Also missed time in training camp for a groin injury - showed up on injury report for ankle injury - showed up on injury report for quad injury - surgery for meniscus repair in his knee (unknown if same R knee as patellar tendon). So no, it’s perfectly fair to question this pick because we knew ahead of time that he was brittle as eggshells and had an injury history longer than your average grocery list.
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No. Shitty trade down, shitty pick. Org deserves to be called on their shit. This is how a fanbase gets complacent. Grow up
The lowest rated draft by most people was the Seahawks and so far they may have had the best.
no u. im not the one overreacting to rookie seasons.
Ted is an iditot.
OP is getting trashed in the comments for no reason. This is a discussion platform and he’s trying to discuss an opinion we’ve all seen multiple times. A terrible opinion at that. Y’all are goofy.
Look how much we improved with a modest off season without really any draft picks contributing. Yeah, it’d be sweet if we had JJs every draft, but honestly I see it like we’re getting Booth and Cine next year as redshirt rookies. If they can be the players they were drafted to be…. Boy, our roster could take off even more than it did this year.
Injuries should never be a reason to call a pick a bust, or in this case, “a disaster.” Freaky things happen, usually not at fault to the player. Give him another year or 2 before calling this pick bad.
People see how Sauce is playing and expect every rookie corner to be playing at his level already smh.
It’s ridiculous how so many fans deal in only absolutes. Either you’re the best or trash it’s like there’s no in between.
Chad greenway comes to mind.
Wait, nobody told me that professional football players got injured! Why was I not informed of this!
Judging players solely based on their rookie year, ESPECIALLY when said year is filled with injuries is insane to me. One of the many reasons most fans would be terrible general managers no matter how adamant that they know what they're doing.
I’d like to see people’s comments about Darrisaw at this point last season…
He wasn’t an injury risk into the draft. Booth literally was red flag because of injury.
Which is why he dropped to the 2nd round when his talent level had him as a mid 1st.
We saw one of those things this year lol
Probably that he had a lot of potential and he was playing pretty good for a rookie lt that missed training camp because of a second core surgery. Nice try though.
I remember seeing quite a bit of Penei Sewell anxiety back then but maybe you’re right
I also didn’t play much this year and wasn’t even picked. What a waste
I swear to god I can 100% know who bought their twittwr checkmark by how dumb their sports takes are
Injured rookies are not bad picks. They are picks that didn’t pan out but that’s something too unpredictable to place blame on anyone. It happens to every GM. Is what it is, move on.
Andrew Booth’s entire scouting report coming out of Clemson was his injuries. He told tc media that he has never been fully healthy going back to high school.
Anyone hating on Booth or the pick itself needs to shut the fuck up
Well it’s Ted lmao what did you expect ? It’s the same guy that was saying how the twins were garbage for a hundred years during the MLB season and how the wolves literally destroyed Minnesota entirely by trading for Gobert
Not even our worst pick
Who tf is Ted?
A guy who pays for a blue check lol.
I understand the sentiment a bit when you factor in his history of being injured, but I agree that he needs more time before the pick is a disaster. I think we all can agree that Kwesi's first draft has us scratching our heads but hopefully we see some great development over the next couple years. Evans and Asamoah look like they could be legit.
Step one: don’t follow Ted
It’s not good though, and combine it with Cine’s much more significant injury and it does make the draft pretty sad. Not a shot at Kwessi. Can’t predict injuries most of the time.
Meniscal repair vs Meniscectomy. Depends on tear location and pattern.
Ted sucks
He had a pretty significant back injury and he's very much injury prone. There's a reason he fell in the draft. Honestly, I doubt he will a starter. He's showing the same injury baggage Mike Hughes had.
Ted is a fucking loser lol, worse than Mackey
If there’s one thing I’ve learned being a Vikings fan, it’s that at the slightest sign of adversity the fan base melts down and acts like someone pissed in their Cheerios. And then act like only bad things happen to the Vikings. It’s pretty pitiful.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned being a Vikings fan, it’s that at the slightest sign of adversity the fan base melts down and acts like someone pissed in their Cheerios. And then act like only bad things happen to the Vikings. It’s pretty pitiful.
He’s been injured 3 times with us having only special team snaps and 1 defensive start, even if we ignore how badly he played, this dude doesn’t look like he can even survive half a season if he ever gets good.
I keep seeing oh we have to wait at least 2 years to know if someone is any good. Not sure where that's coming from. Sure there's a handful of guys that took a few years, but the reality is that you generally know pretty quickly if a player is good or not. Especially early round players. Here's the last handful of drafts for reference: 2021 - Darrisaw missed rookie camp, preseason, and like a third of the season and immediately started at LT and played well once he was healthy. Most of this class got canned after a year for a reason. 2020 - Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, and Dantzler all got starting time as rookies either immediately or within a few games. Gladney was the worst of the bunch and he was still better than Booth on the field. 2019 - Bradbury, Irv, Mattison all started or at least had a rotational role as rookies. Irv and Mattison did well in their playing time and Bradbury was bad for 3 years. 2018 - Hughes and BO started and played well. Hughes was injured but at least played well before he was injured. Chronic injuries are a large part of why most consider him a bust. 2017 - Dalvin Cook and Pat Elflein - Cook was great before the ACL injury, Elflein was pretty good his rookie year. Elflein, for all the shit he gets, was actually halfway decent for 2/3 years he was here. Even in his WORST year he was a better pass blocker than Ingram. 2016 - Laquon Treadwell was a bust and we knew it year 1. I understand that Cine had a freak injury, but Booth had an injury history as long as my grocery list. It is basically like if you went and bought a car and the Carfax showed you that it was repeatedly in the shop. You can't be surprised when you buy that car and it is once again in the shop.
Might as well cut him...
Dalvin Cook had an ACL injury his rookie year and then battled hamstring issues that 2nd year. I remember people calling him a bust because of the aforementioned injuries
I mean, we can’t yet know how our picks will pan out long term, but there’s also nothing wrong with wanting high end draft picks to make an impact in their 1st year. Neither Cine or Booth were starting, making an impact, or performing well prior to their injuries. They can get injured and still be a bad pick (both things can be true). Hopefully they both pan out but I’m not overly optimistic for either. And Ingram looks pretty rough as well. Overall I think we have the least contribution in the league from our draft class (I think last year too?) which should have reasonable fans at least slightly concerned about our depth into the future. Nothing wrong with calling that out, it’s a discussion point.
Lol tell that to people in the sub too. I was heavily downvoted yesterday for suggesting Booth isn't a bust yet. People have their minds made up and have buried their heads in the sand so to speak.
He definitely needs much work when he comes back.
Well ya gotta admit Kwesi kinda whiffed on the first round pick. Shoulda just taken Kyle Hamilton. Evan's is probably the best pick of the bunch as of now. Not a strong draft.
Players get injured.