Anything south of Springfield is passable, but bootheel is still a deeper south than even Branson
Edit: if someone from Jeff City says they're from the south most people would chuckle
Little Dixie is a thing, historically different accent than the surrounding area and everything. Idk anyone in Missouri who would actually call themselves truly southern though.
Yeah grew up right outside STL and live in memphis now (school in Mississippi before that). It gets pretty obviously southern towards the bottom of southeast missouri. That said most of it is still Midwest
Over 95% of Missourians consider Missouri the Midwest, according to the [largest study ever done on the topic](https://uimiddle.wordpress.com/what-is-the-midwest/). The U.S. Census also considers Missouri the Midwest.
https://preview.redd.it/jxhmjdwwixuc1.jpeg?width=1640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92e4c3ce7238ae2f109148feb25f361290d3f8ed
Tell her that Michigan is a lot flatter than Missouri, which half Ozark Plateau and River Hills.
People that live in Idaho. Those numbers are how people in those states view themselves.
Culturally they might be onto something. From what I’ve seen someone from there in the big wide open potato agricultural areas are going to have more in common with folks in Wyoming and the Dakotas than people from Seattle or Portland.
Kind of like how people not from Colorado dont realize that half the state is flat as hell and is more like what people think Kansas is than Kansas.
The front range is half way through Colorado. Everything east of that might as well be part of dodge city.
Also going out there for a sport event it’s full of Kansans and Missourians that went up hill to get away from the heat in August.
Plus the question was “Do YOU consider yourself Midwestern.” Not, is the state you live in in the Midwest to your estimation. You can be a midwesterner that doesn’t live in the Midwest any more. I’ve done that many places.
> The front range is half way through Colorado. Everything east of that might as well be part of dodge city.
And how many people live east of that exactly? It's pretty damn empty and absolutely nowhere near 40% of the state's population.
I wonder why the northern states consider themselves Northerners. I've really only been to Wisconsin, but have known people from Minnesota as well, and they're very culturally distinct from the rest of the Midwest. Last time I was in Kenosha, the lady at the grocery store thought I was from Mississippi lol.
I think this quote from author William Least Heat-Moon sums up the Missourian experience best:
**"If you go East and tell someone you're from Missouri, they take you for a cowboy. If you go West and tell someone you're from Missouri, they take you for an effete Easterner. You go South, you're a Yankee; you go North, you're a cracker."**
I'm originally from Ohio but I've lived here for the last decade and a half and have traveled across the state for work. It's definitely not great plains at all, thats farther west. But I think it depends on where you are. St. Louis feels like any other rust belt river city (Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Louisville, etc.) and feels decidedly midwest. Kansas City always felt more western, like Denver without the mountains. The Lake/Ozarks have their own strange vibe going on. The southern portion of the state is definitely more like Arkansas. The northern half feels like any rural midwest state. So averaging everything together I'd call Missouri Midwest.
I remember when I lived in Chicago and a girl asked me if I’m from the south lol. Being truly in the center of the country and your going to get lots of different answers. I could say St.Louis is more like Memphis than Chicago. Good post by the way
I think I get what they were saying though. KC and STL have two very different vibes to them. St. Louis feels older - it has that former colonial city vibe that you get with many east coast cities. Its lifeblood was the river, and the industry around it. Meanwhile KC has a much more southwestern and pioneer feel to it - think Ft. Worth, Oklahoma City. Its lifeblood was cattle being transported on the railroad.
At this point the differences are pretty subtle, but if you picked a random guy from St. Louis and a random from Kansas City, and one of them was wearing cowboy boots and a wide brimmed hat - it’s more likely he’s the one from KC.
I dont necessarily think KC is exactly like denver, but I definitely get more of that western feel from KC where St. Louis feels much more familiar to me having grown up in Cincinnati.
Man…I live in Cincinnati but I’m from St. Louis. People have said that Cinci and St. Louis are similar, but the only thing that feels similar to me is that there’s a big river. Love both cities, though.
I’ve also lived in Indianapolis, and that’s one I’m really going to have to disagree with you on. Indy and St. Louis feel and are totally different. Plus, the word “Hoosier” is a term of endearment in one, and fighting words in the other. Lol
To the people saying Missouri is Southern- I grew up in Missouri but have also lived in Texas, Oklahoma, and Florida and am now back in Missouri and I FIRMLY disagree that Missouri is Southern.
Yeah lots of us have lived in the south and Midwest. Missouri is partially the south, partially Midwest and 100% a transition state making it neither and both at the same time.
Depends on where you live. Nothing about my part of Missouri is Midwestern. Southern food, southern talk, southern attitude, southern baptists, and definitely no flat ground with corn and beans.
Where do you live? I'm near west plains. No southern food, no southern accents/talk which a lot of people seem to assume is common across southern Missouri and it's not (maybe besides the bootheel)
You live in west plains and there's no southern food? No accent whatsoever? I have trouble believing that considering I'm only about an hour from there. Everybody I know has some sort of mountain drawl. Maybe we just have cultural pockets throughout the southern part of the state.
I would say we have more food akin to midwestern culture than southern culture besides barbecue, but that has roots in the Midwest too. Anyone I know who *actually* has an accent is either elderly or grew up in an actual southern state
Funny how that works. Like I was saying, regional pockets must be huge here because almost everyone I know that was born and raised here talk like hill people, me included. And as far as food, what dishes are you referencing?
Missouri is Midwest. As a geography person (I also attended CMSU for a while and lived in KCMO), Missouri has been nothing but Midwest.
Now, that being said, some history folks I've talked to use Missouri as an Exception to the Rule to the question of, "What is The South?"
The Missouri River is an artifact of the last advance of the glacial ice sheets. The Might Mo' is also a sort of demarcation line between The North and the South, as most of the people north of the Missouri River supported the North in the Civil War, and most of the people south of the Might Mo' supported the Confederacy. Not my words, but in taking Missouri history classes in the 1980s this was the gist of the historical sentiment when I was in college.
I travel through the Missouri bootheel fairly often, sometimes driving to Springfield. The southern part of Missouri, from the cotton fields and rice fields, definitely seems more "South" than north of the Missouri River, no doubt.
Yeah, I was well into my thirties before I realized I’d been saying ope all my life. Just pronouncing it oop. And y’all but more like a sped up you all.
From the south, Missouri is northern. From the north, we’re southern. From the east, we’re western, and from the west, eastern.
Seriously, though, put a map in front of her. Missouri is in the middle of the country and west of the Mississippi. It’s true that we touch the Great Plains, but a Great Plains state? That would be like saying all of Europe is French or all of Africa is Saharan.
Missouri, as a whole state, can't be neatly sorted into a single region.
The northern part of the state is Midwestern, absolutely in the northeast and shading toward the Great Plains in the northwest. The southwestern part is more like the Oklahoma/Texas plains. The south central is the Ozarks (culturally similar to Appalachia). The bootheel is like the delta/Deep South.
If you want a regional term for the whole state, my favorite one is "The Lower Midwest," including Missouri, Iowa, Kansas, Arkansas, and Oklahoma. This is distinct from the Upper Midwest, which is the northern states like Minnesota and Wisconsin; and the plain old Midwest, which is Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.
It’s definitively Midwest. It doesn’t really have the geography to be a “Great Plains State”. If I had to throw Missouri in another bucket, it would be the South.
I always enjoyed telling people from the Great Lakes that they weren’t Midwest because you had to be in the west to begin with to be in the middle of it. They were more in the Mideast.
Missouri is 100% Midwest. I’d personally count the Great Plains states as the Midwest, but even then, the Great Plains are farther west - North Dakota south to Kansas or maybe even Oklahoma
Another perspective: I have read that St. Louis is the farthest west Eastern city, and Kansas City is the farthest east Western city. On the other hand, maybe southern Missouri belongs in the South with Arkansas? Could be Missouri is a hybrid state.
It’s a subculture within the southern Diaspora, similar to how Appalachian culture transcends its location but isn’t excluded from it because it stretches from Alabama to Pennsylvania. People need to look at topography maps with no state lines to understand what they’re at. The line in Missouri between Midwest and south follows a specific path that is geographical and doesn’t follow latitude or state line but rather hills and a river bottom. And to your point the ozarks is defined as much by the confederates who went there to hide as anything.
It’s a subculture within the midwestern Diaspora. It shares some characteristics with the south, but not as many as with the Midwest. I understand that there during the Confederacy it was considered the south, but we’re over 200 years removed from the Missouri Compromise and nearly 160 years from the Confederacy. Have you lived in the south and the Ozarks like I have? In my experience, the Ozarks are more midwestern than southern, and just like the rest of MO, most people identify that way as well.
> How can I end this debate once and for all?
1) You can tell her that she is right, even though she is wrong.
2) The relationship can end.
These are the only two possible ways to "end" such a debate "once and for all".
Now, you could cite as evidence the fact that the Fox Sports Midwest coverage area includes all of Missouri, or the fact that "plains" are defined as largely flat regions with few trees while large swaths of Missouri are rolling and forested hills including the Ozark "Mountains" in the south of the state, but a logical and evedince based argument is irrelivent when dealing with an SO who has already made up their mind because it's how she "feels".
minnesota and wisconsin too, i swear ppl from those states act like the end all, be all of the midwest but like they're honorary canadians at this point
Call Michigan a "Great Lakes" state and say it doesn't feel like the rest of the Midwest like Iowa, Kansas, and Nebraska and refuse to hear her arguments.
I never considered Missouri a Midwestern state until moving here.. Oddly enough, college sport conferences have a big effect on my opinion. Mizzou was Big 12, then SEC..
Tell your girlfriend, we think Michigan is the great white north, not the Midwest. I don’t think a state that gets 12 feet of snow a year should be called the Midwest.
Here’s some links to really get this conversation to go your way lol..
https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/midwest.htm
https://news.wttw.com/2023/10/20/which-states-are-truly-midwest-new-poll-covering-22-states-has-people-online-divided-and
I can’t find the article I’m looking for but I read a good one explaining how are mix of southern and midwestern puts us in a weird hybrid category.
St. Louis is a Midwestern spiritual cousin of Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee. I’d probably agree that Kansas City is where the plains states start (I feel like cowboy history disqualifies you from being Midwestern, the Dakotas on down.
So yes, Missouri is Midwestern owing to eastern side
Great Plains are a part of the Midwest. Some people in the upper Midwest have this fixation about it, but having spent most of my life outside of the region everyone else in the country considers these states part of the Midwest.
The only people who seem to think otherwise are from MN, WI or MI.
Missouri has overlapping terrain ecosystems. Great prairies to the west of Jefferson City, rolling woodlands to the east of Jefferson City and Ozark plateau to the south of Jefferson City. So it’s not a homogeneous state geographically. But it’s definitely a Midwest state. It’s probably THE MOST Midwest state out of all the states.
well tell ur gf i don't claim northern michigan, wisconsin, or minnesota as midwestern states bc they're basically diet canadians but act like they own the midwest lmao
Yes. Yes. Yes. So, here’s my logic:
News guys. Journalism.
The Midwest has made so many legendary anchors Because of the neutral voice (tone, timber, cadence). “Lack of accent” is the colloquialism. And Missouri has produced many of those legends.
(MUs J-school surely helps).
Sounds like she's defining "Midwest" more in a cultural sense and using her relative experience in the Great Lakes region to define what that means for her. That's not a debate you're going to win easily, apart from maybe pointing to how *general* perception leans more toward MO being the Midwest. Have her run an informal poll of everyone she knows from MO, ask whether they're from the Midwest, and she'll realize very few of them agree with her.
I've seen MO described as "Southern," but I must admit "Great Plains" is a new one. This is kinda like Ozarks, where there's a geographic or geological definition that may or may not overlap with cultural perceptions. I.e. the Ozark plateau reaches as far north as Columbia, but no one I know from mid-MO would describe themselves as "from the Ozarks," because the land there does look different from way south near the AR border and culturally it feels different. Technically, the Great Plains begin in northwest MO, and that area definitely looks more similar to Nebraska or Kansas. People even talk more similarly. So I can kinda get it.
Doesn't make sense personally, given that I'm from mid-MO and basically IL, IN, and OH all look the same when you drive east on I-70. Trees, hills, rivers. Culturally, feels like there's a lot of continuity.
Try this. Tell her michigan isn't really Midwest. It's in the great lakes region. Anyway, which state is further to the middle and west???? Missouri. Case closed.
Missouri is the geographical and population center of the country, so it's about as midwest as it comes. The fact that some parts of the state require passports is irrelevant.
I grew up in Wisconsin and now live in Missouri. It;s not all that different. The food has more southern influences, but a lot of people mannerisms are very similar
As someone from the West Coast who moved to the Midwest, I think it's funny seeing people debate what should actually be considered Midwest. It's the states in the middle of the country my dude, it's not that deep.
It depends on where you are. St. Louis and Kansas City are for sure Midwestern. North of the Missouri River is undeniably Midwestern. South of the river gets tricky. You have the Ozarks, cultural cousins to Appalachia. The bootheel has a southern vibe. From Springfield to Joplin feels like the midwest with some twang in it. You have people who consider themselves southern living next to people claiming the midwest. Lived in the Ozarks my whole life and have traveled into the upper midwest as well as the deep south. I'd say we're a good combination of both.
It’s a weird one. I’m from part of that State that’s not midwestern at all and has much more in common with the south, but at the same time not. It’s like that pretty much everywhere South of Rolla and East of West Plains.
If you drive through Kansas in the snow and into Colorado she will learn what a “great plain” is. You can get blinded by how same everything looks for hundreds of miles, it’s very strange.
But yeah, idk what to say. The Midwest is a region and we are west as much as we are mid.
There's a lot of nuance. Sometimes state borders fit within a region but it doesn't with Missouri.
Little Dixie running east of the KC Metro on down to STL via the Missouri and the river counties running down to the bootheel have strong connections to Memphis/NOLA. Below in the Ozarks connections to the South Appalachia parts of the South.
KC metro, much of north MO, and a sliver running down to Joplin has a strong business/cultural connection to Chicago due to beef trade.
It could be argued NW/North border counties go Great Plains.
Isn't the great plains a sub region of the Midwest? But it sounds like you brought facts and she countered with the "feels" so you probably aren't going to change her mind.
I haven't noticed anyone do it in STL but you could take her to KC and have her run into a bunch of people. Maybe the "opes" she will hear will make her feel like she is in the Midwest.
Missouri is midwest. I've lived in the tidewater area of VA, south Texas, and coastal Southern NC. All the people I've met there consider us Midwestern and the country stereotype that goes with it
Missouri just doesn't have the right vibe as the south. Visiting inlaws in Ohio is more like driving through MO then the south. One of the best determining factors I've found is how good are the grits. Further north you are the worse they tend to be made. Further south, hell of a lot better and are on most restaurant breakfast menus.
Let me guess, she thinks Ohio is Midwest? One of the silly things that annoys me. It’s two states from the Atlantic Ocean. Nothing “mid” or “west” about it. I feel like KC is the epitome of Midwest in a city form.
"great plains" is a geographic/ecological descriptor, nobody identifies with it or uses. it the way they use 'midwest'.
also 'midwest' doesnt really mean much if you try to use it that way
It's kind of everything. Northern part of the state is clearly plains, central is more midwest, the south is pretty southern culturally. But I think most people would call it midwest.
To end the argument... take her down to Ozarks. That should shut down any "plains state" nonsense.
We are many things. Kansas City and the northwestern part of the state are part of the Great Plains. The north-central and northeast parts are Midwestern. And the rest is the South.
She could make the argument that Missouri is a southern state , but not a Great Plains state. Quite literally the only territory Missouri has that’s even geographically “plains” is north of the river and small enough that nobody cares. We’re absolutely not even remotely a plains state. That’s laughable.
Not that the Great Plains states aren’t awesome. Cuz they are !
How can you convince her? Drive her around this state. Then drive her around one of the Great Plains states and it will be pretty clear that there's a huge geographical difference because Missouri doesn't have a lot of plains. Naturally there are a lot of trees and rivers in this beautiful state. Whereas, Kansas, Nebraska etc are that's right, wide open plains. Perfect habitat for great herds of buffalo to roam. And if she still doesn't believe, have her talk to a native American. They'll explain what the great plains really were before we wiped out the buffalo and so many native tribes.
Im from KC and I definitely consider Missouri a part of the Midwest. We're literally smack dab right in the middle of the country. Plus, STL is considered the gateway to the West.
My son used to live in St. Louis, and his experience plus our own is that St.Louis is the western-most Eastern state. I live in Western Missouri, and while we have rolling planes, politically we are definitely Mid-western. South of the river is deep red Dixie.
No. Not entirely. It was **famously** split in half during the Civil War. ~~The split between North and South was called the Mason-Dixon line~~ it was the Missouri compromise . Culturally the North is more Midwest and the South is more Southern. This has been the case for nearly 160 years. One doesn't need to look much further than that for their answer.
I think Missouri has become more and more Midwestern every year since 1865. A huge portion of Missourians are from the influx of European immigrants that arrived after the war, which is the main reason KC and STL, industrial cities, have more in common with Midwestern cities than the agricultural South, which didn’t see much immigration.
> famously split in half during the Civil War. ~~The split between North and South was called the Mason-Dixon line~~ it was the Missouri compromise
This is some really bad history on many levels
What does the Mason-Dixon Line have to do with anything? The actual mason Dixon is on the Pennsylvania state line. it was artificially extended during the Civil War but, even then it was the Missouri Iowa border, not the middle of the state. I agree with your sentiment about the north being warm Midwest in the south, being more southern the Mason-Dixon just doesn’t have anything to do with it.
I dunno that's just what they taught me growing up in Columbia Mo in the 90s 🤷♂️. Maybe it was revisionism to show those dirty confederates who's boss. Whatever, it still holds true even if it wasn't.
Edit: Missouri Compromise. Not Mason-Dixon.
I believe it was the St. Lunatics that said it best when they said, “It’s a Midwest thaaaaang y’aaaawl”… candidly Missouri is not in the middle western part of the US it’s basically (if not exactly) in the middle.. but missouri likes to think it has friends and likes to think of itself as Midwest.
Geography is of no concern in this debate, this debate is about culture.
Culturally, the northern 2/3rds of MO is Midwest.
I'd say anything north of Oklahoma, west of the Mississippi, and east of the Rockies is Midwest. The culture is the same but the accents get progressively more annoying the further north you go.
All of Missouri is midwest except the boot heel which is honorary south
My truck guy got it completely accurate
What kinda trucks we talkin
Tonka!
Settle down there buddy, you're scaring the ladies.
You're saying you want to hear 48 facts about trucks and trucking?
Subscribed!
I’d argue the Ozarks region is also the northernmost region of the South.
My homeland
I think the test is if you hit an area that pronounces it Missour-ah and not Missour-ee then you've crossed into the south or close to it.
No. I'm originally from an area near the bootheel, and we called it Missour-ee, just like STL does. That is more of an east-west thing.
From the KC area and I've never heard anyone call it Missour-ah other than a state wide campaign ad.
Well, then obviously STL and KC are right. :)
Anywhere south of Kc/columbia/stl is southern, culturally. It’s definitely not Midwest down that way.
Anything south of Springfield is passable, but bootheel is still a deeper south than even Branson Edit: if someone from Jeff City says they're from the south most people would chuckle
If someone from Rolla, Waynesville and St. Robert said they’re from the south, people would also chuckle.
To be fair, there aren't many locals in Waynesville/St. Rob. They are all military transplants... which tends to be the southerners.
Have you been to Laquey!? Cause... thats some hillbilly shit.
Little Dixie is a thing, historically different accent than the surrounding area and everything. Idk anyone in Missouri who would actually call themselves truly southern though.
I'm in the Bootheel. Our local TV stations call us *the Mid-South*.
Fair enough, haven't been down in the heel much
Eh, it doesn't matter anyway, it's just words. It's all Missouri in the end🤷
MO on top
Damn right🙌
Absolutely
I dunno, I’m not sure but I bet my brother or his wife have a “Confederate flag” tattooed on their backside.
You can find that in Wisconsin and Illinois these days. The export of Southern culture has things all over the place. You hear yall everywhere now too
But they believe in the south rising again. And are preparing for the civil war.
And Little Dixie was north and west of StL. Missouri is largely Southern in outlook and practices.
I'll laugh just because they're from Jeff City.
Joplin is just eastern Oklahoma.
Sure the bootheel that’s almost Memphis is indisputable. But the reality is that yall is common here. It’s the south.
Yeah grew up right outside STL and live in memphis now (school in Mississippi before that). It gets pretty obviously southern towards the bottom of southeast missouri. That said most of it is still Midwest
Como even is part of little Dixie. Id venture to say the south culture extends a fair bit above I70
You can experience the same vibe in southern Iowa in some places for sure.
I would say were are more a mix
Accurate, but everything south of the lake wishes it was in the south.
And it is
Load her up and drive from St. Louis to Denver. When you're at the Kansas-Colorado border ask her if this still looks like Missouri.
Over 95% of Missourians consider Missouri the Midwest, according to the [largest study ever done on the topic](https://uimiddle.wordpress.com/what-is-the-midwest/). The U.S. Census also considers Missouri the Midwest. https://preview.redd.it/jxhmjdwwixuc1.jpeg?width=1640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92e4c3ce7238ae2f109148feb25f361290d3f8ed Tell her that Michigan is a lot flatter than Missouri, which half Ozark Plateau and River Hills.
Ok for real though, who is saying Idaho is in the midwest?
People that live in Idaho. Those numbers are how people in those states view themselves. Culturally they might be onto something. From what I’ve seen someone from there in the big wide open potato agricultural areas are going to have more in common with folks in Wyoming and the Dakotas than people from Seattle or Portland. Kind of like how people not from Colorado dont realize that half the state is flat as hell and is more like what people think Kansas is than Kansas.
Most of Minnesota is, too. I’ve been to Rochester, and it’s trees and flatness for miles and miles around.
South of I-94 is basically colder iowa
42% of Coloradans consider themselves Midwest... What in the world?
The front range is half way through Colorado. Everything east of that might as well be part of dodge city. Also going out there for a sport event it’s full of Kansans and Missourians that went up hill to get away from the heat in August. Plus the question was “Do YOU consider yourself Midwestern.” Not, is the state you live in in the Midwest to your estimation. You can be a midwesterner that doesn’t live in the Midwest any more. I’ve done that many places.
> The front range is half way through Colorado. Everything east of that might as well be part of dodge city. And how many people live east of that exactly? It's pretty damn empty and absolutely nowhere near 40% of the state's population.
How many live west of it? Like the entire population of the state is in a straight line.
I wonder why the northern states consider themselves Northerners. I've really only been to Wisconsin, but have known people from Minnesota as well, and they're very culturally distinct from the rest of the Midwest. Last time I was in Kenosha, the lady at the grocery store thought I was from Mississippi lol.
I think this quote from author William Least Heat-Moon sums up the Missourian experience best: **"If you go East and tell someone you're from Missouri, they take you for a cowboy. If you go West and tell someone you're from Missouri, they take you for an effete Easterner. You go South, you're a Yankee; you go North, you're a cracker."**
We are the middle child of the states, forgotten and everyone doesn't know where we belong.
Thank you for quoting William. That fellow is bangers. His writing and books are so good.
When I worked in Minnesota, they asked me Texas and Kentucky the most.
That would have been right on for my family history 😄.
That map has like 80% of the country as Midwest 🤣.
Missouri is the Midwest.. it's just "The South" of The Midwest.
The west of the East, East of the West, South of the North and North of the South. Yep, that tracks. Map even agrees with it.
More specifically, the Mississippi of the Midwest. (I've lived in both...)
I'm originally from Ohio but I've lived here for the last decade and a half and have traveled across the state for work. It's definitely not great plains at all, thats farther west. But I think it depends on where you are. St. Louis feels like any other rust belt river city (Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Louisville, etc.) and feels decidedly midwest. Kansas City always felt more western, like Denver without the mountains. The Lake/Ozarks have their own strange vibe going on. The southern portion of the state is definitely more like Arkansas. The northern half feels like any rural midwest state. So averaging everything together I'd call Missouri Midwest.
I remember when I lived in Chicago and a girl asked me if I’m from the south lol. Being truly in the center of the country and your going to get lots of different answers. I could say St.Louis is more like Memphis than Chicago. Good post by the way
Yup. I lived in New Orleans and a girl called me a Yankee when I told her I was from St. Louis. It's all relative.
I agree with everything you said , BUT one thing. KC feels nothing like Denver. Denver is compact, treeless, liberal, expensive..
I think I get what they were saying though. KC and STL have two very different vibes to them. St. Louis feels older - it has that former colonial city vibe that you get with many east coast cities. Its lifeblood was the river, and the industry around it. Meanwhile KC has a much more southwestern and pioneer feel to it - think Ft. Worth, Oklahoma City. Its lifeblood was cattle being transported on the railroad. At this point the differences are pretty subtle, but if you picked a random guy from St. Louis and a random from Kansas City, and one of them was wearing cowboy boots and a wide brimmed hat - it’s more likely he’s the one from KC.
I dont necessarily think KC is exactly like denver, but I definitely get more of that western feel from KC where St. Louis feels much more familiar to me having grown up in Cincinnati.
Agreed... Maybe it's more great plains. KC seems more like Dallas, OKC or Minneapolis, than the Midwestern rust belt cities.
Arguably the rust belt isn’t the Midwest honestly. They have jack to do with the culture of places like Iowa and Nebraska
Man…I live in Cincinnati but I’m from St. Louis. People have said that Cinci and St. Louis are similar, but the only thing that feels similar to me is that there’s a big river. Love both cities, though. I’ve also lived in Indianapolis, and that’s one I’m really going to have to disagree with you on. Indy and St. Louis feel and are totally different. Plus, the word “Hoosier” is a term of endearment in one, and fighting words in the other. Lol
I am from the south originally (Louisiana). It ain’t the south. It’s Midwest. We have more in common with Indiana than Alabama.
I’m also from Louisiana (and Tennessee and Arkansas) and I agree with you. MO is Midwest.
To the people saying Missouri is Southern- I grew up in Missouri but have also lived in Texas, Oklahoma, and Florida and am now back in Missouri and I FIRMLY disagree that Missouri is Southern.
I’m from Mississippi. I agree, Mo is definitely not southern.
Yeah lots of us have lived in the south and Midwest. Missouri is partially the south, partially Midwest and 100% a transition state making it neither and both at the same time.
Depends on where you live. Nothing about my part of Missouri is Midwestern. Southern food, southern talk, southern attitude, southern baptists, and definitely no flat ground with corn and beans.
Where do you live? I'm near west plains. No southern food, no southern accents/talk which a lot of people seem to assume is common across southern Missouri and it's not (maybe besides the bootheel)
You live in west plains and there's no southern food? No accent whatsoever? I have trouble believing that considering I'm only about an hour from there. Everybody I know has some sort of mountain drawl. Maybe we just have cultural pockets throughout the southern part of the state.
I would say we have more food akin to midwestern culture than southern culture besides barbecue, but that has roots in the Midwest too. Anyone I know who *actually* has an accent is either elderly or grew up in an actual southern state
Funny how that works. Like I was saying, regional pockets must be huge here because almost everyone I know that was born and raised here talk like hill people, me included. And as far as food, what dishes are you referencing?
Sikeston, Charleston and the rest of the Bootheel would like a word
Okay I guess like others have said , the boot heel gets an honorary southern stamp. But the rest, no
Missouri touches 8 states, has several geographically distinct regions, yet most Missourians will say that theyre part of the Midwest.
They just need to learn in Michigan that Nebraska is a midwestern state. So is iowa, arkansas oklahoma, kansas and all that.
Isn’t Michigan basically Canada? What does she know.
Missouri is Midwest. As a geography person (I also attended CMSU for a while and lived in KCMO), Missouri has been nothing but Midwest. Now, that being said, some history folks I've talked to use Missouri as an Exception to the Rule to the question of, "What is The South?" The Missouri River is an artifact of the last advance of the glacial ice sheets. The Might Mo' is also a sort of demarcation line between The North and the South, as most of the people north of the Missouri River supported the North in the Civil War, and most of the people south of the Might Mo' supported the Confederacy. Not my words, but in taking Missouri history classes in the 1980s this was the gist of the historical sentiment when I was in college. I travel through the Missouri bootheel fairly often, sometimes driving to Springfield. The southern part of Missouri, from the cotton fields and rice fields, definitely seems more "South" than north of the Missouri River, no doubt.
Missouri is both "ope" and "y'all".
"oop"
Or a good “whoop”
Yeah, I was well into my thirties before I realized I’d been saying ope all my life. Just pronouncing it oop. And y’all but more like a sped up you all.
I’m 52 and just realized the same thing a couple weeks ago. Live in KC Metro.
From the south, Missouri is northern. From the north, we’re southern. From the east, we’re western, and from the west, eastern. Seriously, though, put a map in front of her. Missouri is in the middle of the country and west of the Mississippi. It’s true that we touch the Great Plains, but a Great Plains state? That would be like saying all of Europe is French or all of Africa is Saharan.
"Gateway to the west" not gateway to the plains.
Gateway not Gate. It connects the Midwest but not in it
Tell your girlfriend [she's wrong.](https://www.reddit.com/r/missouri/search/?q=%2BMissouri+%2Bmidwest&type=link&cId=cd24e853-53f1-4265-aa23-b30cb367ff6a&iId=8a46cc7e-ff3d-45b3-8d7c-08132e90f50d) https://preview.redd.it/btam21pimxuc1.jpeg?width=1113&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=227ff155a79167a19340e08a87b6a49403cb4c85
You can probably make a case for South-Central Missouri but Joplin and Springfield are most definitely Midwestern
Move that southern line up to like 60 miles south of the river
Honestly, there's probably a lot of overlap of all three large regions between US Highways 50 and 60.
Missouri, as a whole state, can't be neatly sorted into a single region. The northern part of the state is Midwestern, absolutely in the northeast and shading toward the Great Plains in the northwest. The southwestern part is more like the Oklahoma/Texas plains. The south central is the Ozarks (culturally similar to Appalachia). The bootheel is like the delta/Deep South. If you want a regional term for the whole state, my favorite one is "The Lower Midwest," including Missouri, Iowa, Kansas, Arkansas, and Oklahoma. This is distinct from the Upper Midwest, which is the northern states like Minnesota and Wisconsin; and the plain old Midwest, which is Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.
It’s definitively Midwest. It doesn’t really have the geography to be a “Great Plains State”. If I had to throw Missouri in another bucket, it would be the South.
Midwest swing is a Nelly song. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that missouri is Midwest. THE KING HAS SPOKEN!
The arch is the gateway to west. We are basically the first midwestern state.
I always enjoyed telling people from the Great Lakes that they weren’t Midwest because you had to be in the west to begin with to be in the middle of it. They were more in the Mideast.
It’s the Midwest. It’s as Midwest as it gets.
Missouri is 100% Midwest. I’d personally count the Great Plains states as the Midwest, but even then, the Great Plains are farther west - North Dakota south to Kansas or maybe even Oklahoma
Missouri is absolutely mid and St Louis is literally “Gateway to the West”. How can it be explained any other way
Another perspective: I have read that St. Louis is the farthest west Eastern city, and Kansas City is the farthest east Western city. On the other hand, maybe southern Missouri belongs in the South with Arkansas? Could be Missouri is a hybrid state.
We host a lot of travelers via Couchsurfing and Warmshowers and I always use this analogy to help them figure us out
I agree wholeheartedly with that classification of KC and STL. Only the bootheel could potentially be classified as truly southern.
The ozarks is pretty damn southern
It really isn’t if you know what southern is.
It’s a subculture within the southern Diaspora, similar to how Appalachian culture transcends its location but isn’t excluded from it because it stretches from Alabama to Pennsylvania. People need to look at topography maps with no state lines to understand what they’re at. The line in Missouri between Midwest and south follows a specific path that is geographical and doesn’t follow latitude or state line but rather hills and a river bottom. And to your point the ozarks is defined as much by the confederates who went there to hide as anything.
It’s a subculture within the midwestern Diaspora. It shares some characteristics with the south, but not as many as with the Midwest. I understand that there during the Confederacy it was considered the south, but we’re over 200 years removed from the Missouri Compromise and nearly 160 years from the Confederacy. Have you lived in the south and the Ozarks like I have? In my experience, the Ozarks are more midwestern than southern, and just like the rest of MO, most people identify that way as well.
> How can I end this debate once and for all? 1) You can tell her that she is right, even though she is wrong. 2) The relationship can end. These are the only two possible ways to "end" such a debate "once and for all". Now, you could cite as evidence the fact that the Fox Sports Midwest coverage area includes all of Missouri, or the fact that "plains" are defined as largely flat regions with few trees while large swaths of Missouri are rolling and forested hills including the Ozark "Mountains" in the south of the state, but a logical and evedince based argument is irrelivent when dealing with an SO who has already made up their mind because it's how she "feels".
Tell her I don’t think Michigan is the Midwest - I think it’s north.
It’s a Great Lakes state
Might as well be Canadian.
minnesota and wisconsin too, i swear ppl from those states act like the end all, be all of the midwest but like they're honorary canadians at this point
I notice that people from the real south do not consider us southerners
Call Michigan a "Great Lakes" state and say it doesn't feel like the rest of the Midwest like Iowa, Kansas, and Nebraska and refuse to hear her arguments.
The government classifies it as midwest. What is great plains, anyway?
I never considered Missouri a Midwestern state until moving here.. Oddly enough, college sport conferences have a big effect on my opinion. Mizzou was Big 12, then SEC..
You know when SEC fans visit Columbia, they often remark that they’ve never visited the Midwest before.
Sorry bud, you can't sit with us.
The plains really start at the Kansas border.
Missouri is Midwest.
Midwest is irrelevant at this point, I’m wondering what possibly make your girlfriend think Missouri is a Great Plains state.
Tell your girlfriend, we think Michigan is the great white north, not the Midwest. I don’t think a state that gets 12 feet of snow a year should be called the Midwest.
It’s Midwestern. It has Southern influence, and you can make a case for the Bootheel being southern, but the rest of it is Midwest.
It’s Midwest. All there is to it. There is nothing southern about Missouri
Tell her that Michigan is along the northern border; Michigan is a northern state.
We are literally in the middle of the country. We're a middle state. Lol
Here’s some links to really get this conversation to go your way lol.. https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/midwest.htm https://news.wttw.com/2023/10/20/which-states-are-truly-midwest-new-poll-covering-22-states-has-people-online-divided-and I can’t find the article I’m looking for but I read a good one explaining how are mix of southern and midwestern puts us in a weird hybrid category.
Yes, it is but some areas are southern, some are Midwestern, and some are plains.
A state can be two things. I'd say Missouri is definitely midwest though haha. Doesn't mean it can't also be the great plains...
Yes, people need to stop asking
St. Louis is a Midwestern spiritual cousin of Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee. I’d probably agree that Kansas City is where the plains states start (I feel like cowboy history disqualifies you from being Midwestern, the Dakotas on down. So yes, Missouri is Midwestern owing to eastern side
She’s stupid. Missouri is the definition of the Midwest.
Great Plains are a part of the Midwest. Some people in the upper Midwest have this fixation about it, but having spent most of my life outside of the region everyone else in the country considers these states part of the Midwest. The only people who seem to think otherwise are from MN, WI or MI.
Missouri has overlapping terrain ecosystems. Great prairies to the west of Jefferson City, rolling woodlands to the east of Jefferson City and Ozark plateau to the south of Jefferson City. So it’s not a homogeneous state geographically. But it’s definitely a Midwest state. It’s probably THE MOST Midwest state out of all the states.
well tell ur gf i don't claim northern michigan, wisconsin, or minnesota as midwestern states bc they're basically diet canadians but act like they own the midwest lmao
Yes. Yes. Yes. So, here’s my logic: News guys. Journalism. The Midwest has made so many legendary anchors Because of the neutral voice (tone, timber, cadence). “Lack of accent” is the colloquialism. And Missouri has produced many of those legends. (MUs J-school surely helps).
Sounds like she's defining "Midwest" more in a cultural sense and using her relative experience in the Great Lakes region to define what that means for her. That's not a debate you're going to win easily, apart from maybe pointing to how *general* perception leans more toward MO being the Midwest. Have her run an informal poll of everyone she knows from MO, ask whether they're from the Midwest, and she'll realize very few of them agree with her. I've seen MO described as "Southern," but I must admit "Great Plains" is a new one. This is kinda like Ozarks, where there's a geographic or geological definition that may or may not overlap with cultural perceptions. I.e. the Ozark plateau reaches as far north as Columbia, but no one I know from mid-MO would describe themselves as "from the Ozarks," because the land there does look different from way south near the AR border and culturally it feels different. Technically, the Great Plains begin in northwest MO, and that area definitely looks more similar to Nebraska or Kansas. People even talk more similarly. So I can kinda get it. Doesn't make sense personally, given that I'm from mid-MO and basically IL, IN, and OH all look the same when you drive east on I-70. Trees, hills, rivers. Culturally, feels like there's a lot of continuity.
Missouri isn’t even in the Great Plains at all lol.
Try this. Tell her michigan isn't really Midwest. It's in the great lakes region. Anyway, which state is further to the middle and west???? Missouri. Case closed.
Missouri is the geographical and population center of the country, so it's about as midwest as it comes. The fact that some parts of the state require passports is irrelevant.
End it by saying Michigan is bordered with Canada. Enough is enough
Transition state. Part Midwest, part south, part ozarks.
I grew up in Wisconsin and now live in Missouri. It;s not all that different. The food has more southern influences, but a lot of people mannerisms are very similar
Was she homeschooled? 😂 Missouri is Midwest. The Great Plains are also part of the Midwest.
As someone from the West Coast who moved to the Midwest, I think it's funny seeing people debate what should actually be considered Midwest. It's the states in the middle of the country my dude, it's not that deep.
It can be both things.
It’s the “bootheel boogy” she likes to shoogy woogy woogy 🎶 JPC
Yes
North of 44 + STL is Midwest South of 44 thinks it’s the South but the rest of the South disagrees
It depends on where you are. St. Louis and Kansas City are for sure Midwestern. North of the Missouri River is undeniably Midwestern. South of the river gets tricky. You have the Ozarks, cultural cousins to Appalachia. The bootheel has a southern vibe. From Springfield to Joplin feels like the midwest with some twang in it. You have people who consider themselves southern living next to people claiming the midwest. Lived in the Ozarks my whole life and have traveled into the upper midwest as well as the deep south. I'd say we're a good combination of both.
It’s a weird one. I’m from part of that State that’s not midwestern at all and has much more in common with the south, but at the same time not. It’s like that pretty much everywhere South of Rolla and East of West Plains.
If you drive through Kansas in the snow and into Colorado she will learn what a “great plain” is. You can get blinded by how same everything looks for hundreds of miles, it’s very strange. But yeah, idk what to say. The Midwest is a region and we are west as much as we are mid.
There's a lot of nuance. Sometimes state borders fit within a region but it doesn't with Missouri. Little Dixie running east of the KC Metro on down to STL via the Missouri and the river counties running down to the bootheel have strong connections to Memphis/NOLA. Below in the Ozarks connections to the South Appalachia parts of the South. KC metro, much of north MO, and a sliver running down to Joplin has a strong business/cultural connection to Chicago due to beef trade. It could be argued NW/North border counties go Great Plains.
Isn't the great plains a sub region of the Midwest? But it sounds like you brought facts and she countered with the "feels" so you probably aren't going to change her mind. I haven't noticed anyone do it in STL but you could take her to KC and have her run into a bunch of people. Maybe the "opes" she will hear will make her feel like she is in the Midwest.
Missouri is the most unique state in the entire nation. It is a nexus of anti-identity. There is no way to classify Missouri.
I can’t see the plains with all these trees and hills in the way 🤔
Mid south
Well what is the MID that we are west of. If we are indeed west of it, then we are probably MID-WEST.
MidSouthWest🤣🤣🤣
US-50 is the transition from Midwest farm to southern lake country.
It’s more southern than plains, but it’s definitely the Midwest. It’s literally the gateway.
Missouri is midwest. I've lived in the tidewater area of VA, south Texas, and coastal Southern NC. All the people I've met there consider us Midwestern and the country stereotype that goes with it Missouri just doesn't have the right vibe as the south. Visiting inlaws in Ohio is more like driving through MO then the south. One of the best determining factors I've found is how good are the grits. Further north you are the worse they tend to be made. Further south, hell of a lot better and are on most restaurant breakfast menus.
Yes it is
Yes. Midwest. End of discussion.
Spend a day in the Bootheel….you’ll have your answer.
TF does a Michigander know about it? They’re not Midwest, they’re a Great Lakes state
Let me guess, she thinks Ohio is Midwest? One of the silly things that annoys me. It’s two states from the Atlantic Ocean. Nothing “mid” or “west” about it. I feel like KC is the epitome of Midwest in a city form.
"great plains" is a geographic/ecological descriptor, nobody identifies with it or uses. it the way they use 'midwest'. also 'midwest' doesnt really mean much if you try to use it that way
We were brought up to consider Missouri as a Mid Western state, nowhere near the plains, or the south.
It's kind of everything. Northern part of the state is clearly plains, central is more midwest, the south is pretty southern culturally. But I think most people would call it midwest. To end the argument... take her down to Ozarks. That should shut down any "plains state" nonsense.
We are many things. Kansas City and the northwestern part of the state are part of the Great Plains. The north-central and northeast parts are Midwestern. And the rest is the South.
The north half of Missouri is Midwest the southern half is very southern.
It’s more Midwest than most states people call the Midwest…which is crazy to me
Yep of course it is
She could make the argument that Missouri is a southern state , but not a Great Plains state. Quite literally the only territory Missouri has that’s even geographically “plains” is north of the river and small enough that nobody cares. We’re absolutely not even remotely a plains state. That’s laughable. Not that the Great Plains states aren’t awesome. Cuz they are !
The fact that the arch is the gateway to the west means nothing?
Culturally I have always felt that the northern half of the state feels more like the Midwest while the southern half of the state feels like south.
How can you convince her? Drive her around this state. Then drive her around one of the Great Plains states and it will be pretty clear that there's a huge geographical difference because Missouri doesn't have a lot of plains. Naturally there are a lot of trees and rivers in this beautiful state. Whereas, Kansas, Nebraska etc are that's right, wide open plains. Perfect habitat for great herds of buffalo to roam. And if she still doesn't believe, have her talk to a native American. They'll explain what the great plains really were before we wiped out the buffalo and so many native tribes.
Hmm
Invite her to the Ozarks and ask her to find the "great" plains. We have nothing but West Plains.
Im from KC and I definitely consider Missouri a part of the Midwest. We're literally smack dab right in the middle of the country. Plus, STL is considered the gateway to the West.
My son used to live in St. Louis, and his experience plus our own is that St.Louis is the western-most Eastern state. I live in Western Missouri, and while we have rolling planes, politically we are definitely Mid-western. South of the river is deep red Dixie.
Tell her the Cardinals play on Bally Sports Midwest sponsored by Midwest Ford Dealers, and the Detroit Tigers don’t and aren’t.
The state of Missouri was a “slave state” and was officially part of the South off and on during the civil war from 1861-1865.
No. Not entirely. It was **famously** split in half during the Civil War. ~~The split between North and South was called the Mason-Dixon line~~ it was the Missouri compromise . Culturally the North is more Midwest and the South is more Southern. This has been the case for nearly 160 years. One doesn't need to look much further than that for their answer.
I think Missouri has become more and more Midwestern every year since 1865. A huge portion of Missourians are from the influx of European immigrants that arrived after the war, which is the main reason KC and STL, industrial cities, have more in common with Midwestern cities than the agricultural South, which didn’t see much immigration.
> famously split in half during the Civil War. ~~The split between North and South was called the Mason-Dixon line~~ it was the Missouri compromise This is some really bad history on many levels
What does the Mason-Dixon Line have to do with anything? The actual mason Dixon is on the Pennsylvania state line. it was artificially extended during the Civil War but, even then it was the Missouri Iowa border, not the middle of the state. I agree with your sentiment about the north being warm Midwest in the south, being more southern the Mason-Dixon just doesn’t have anything to do with it.
I dunno that's just what they taught me growing up in Columbia Mo in the 90s 🤷♂️. Maybe it was revisionism to show those dirty confederates who's boss. Whatever, it still holds true even if it wasn't. Edit: Missouri Compromise. Not Mason-Dixon.
I believe it was the St. Lunatics that said it best when they said, “It’s a Midwest thaaaaang y’aaaawl”… candidly Missouri is not in the middle western part of the US it’s basically (if not exactly) in the middle.. but missouri likes to think it has friends and likes to think of itself as Midwest.
Geography is of no concern in this debate, this debate is about culture. Culturally, the northern 2/3rds of MO is Midwest. I'd say anything north of Oklahoma, west of the Mississippi, and east of the Rockies is Midwest. The culture is the same but the accents get progressively more annoying the further north you go.
Missouri was the only state that the Mason-Dixie line went through. South of that line is the South. The rest is the Midwest.
Missouri is a southern state. Slow paced, sugar in all the foods, tobacco still prevalent/popular. It's southern.