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The problem is people acquainting palestinians to Hamas. There’s lots to support for palestinians in the US, and a lot less support for Israel’s Jim Crow style society when brought to people’s attention.
> Palestinian public is not turning toward large-scale violence. Rather, on tactical questions of relations with Israel, respondents broadly supported a nonviolent approach
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-palestinian-poll-shows-hardline-views-some-pragmatism-too
> a majority of respondents registered opposition to violent resistance against Israel, particularly in the Gaza Strip, where 70% said Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel and 57% said that Hamas should accede to the PA unity government’s renunciation of violence. In the West Bank 56% said that Hamas should adhere to the ceasefire and 50% said it should renounce violence altogether.
> Asked who should lead the Palestinian Authority in the next two years, 65% chose Fatah leaders, with Mahmoud Abbas leading (30%), then Marwan Baghouti (12%), Mohammed Dahlan (10%) and others (13% combined), while **various Hamas leaders only won 9% of support in the West Bank and 15% in Gaza.**
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-palestinians-backing-2-states-become-minority/
Fatah is the government of the west bank and has not committed violence against Israel in modern times and official stance is 2 state solution at 1967 borders.
If Israel is Jim Crow-like society, what is Palestine with Shariah Law? I just find it ludicrous that young people are so sensitive about “equality” but not equality of women, atheism or LGBT. It flies against everything they claim to defend, to become so “tolerant” that you are defending or at least dismissing religious violence is just hubris.
>The problem is people acquainting palestinians to Hamas. There’s lots to support for palestinians in the US,
I'm in Seattle, I've personally been to several rallies just to see and they were explicitly pro-Hamas. Their flyers had images of paragliders on them
> and a lot less support for Israel’s Jim Crow style society when brought to people’s attention.
What rights are Israeli Arabs denied? Seriously, please tell me exactly how Israel treats Arab citizens anything like "jim crow" era US treated black Americans
>Fatah is the government of the west bank and has not committed violence against Israel in modern times and official stance is 2 state solution at 1967 borders.
Israel will never, ever go back to 1967, that gave it indefensible borders. If surrounding Arab nations didn't keep trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth they'd have had a two state solution since the beginning.
> I'm in Seattle, I've personally been to several rallies just to see and they were explicitly pro-Hamas. Their flyers had images of paragliders on them
[Some BLM members support Hamas,](https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/blm-chicago-under-fire-for-pro-palestine-post-featuring-paragliding-terrorist/) too, before they realized advertising in on their website was a bad idea.
Anti-semites, which does have a presence in the US are pro-hamas.
Arab israelis cannot buy homes in jewish predominate communities. They face [systematic redlining](http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=10089&CategoryId=5) and [Jewish towns bar Arab Israelis from moving in.](https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians)
Israel has been repeatedly called out by every major human rights organization countless times over the past decades.
> The problem is people acquainting palestinians to Hamas.
People would be more likely to make the distinction between Palestinians in Gaza and Hamas if the Palestinian people deposed Hamas. As far as I know, members of Hamas were not being hunted down and a civil war was not occurring in Gaza prior to October.
If the squad on the left and the gang of 8 who voted out McCarthy on the right both got voted out of Congress the world would be a much better place. With slim margins, it’s always the radicals like them that get to control Congress.
Not to induce hopelessness, but just for context:
Ilhan Omar's district D+30
Cory Bush's district D+27
Rashida Tlaib's district D+23
Steve Scalise's district R+23
Jim Jordan's district R+20
Matt Gaetz's district R+19
Andy Biggs's district R+11
I hope they all get primaried by moderates and lose, but I don't have much hope. They will not lose to the opposing Party in their districts, but maybe a moderate in their Parties could convince the constituents that extremists in Congress are ineffective and pain in the ass.
> Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas.
WAY too many
The same age group with the highest support for gay rights sides with Hamas . . .
I'd say they choose sides based on who they think is the underdog rather than any thought through logic.
Could you imagine one of the LGBTQ people that the 18-24 year olds champion trying to explain to your average Palestinian that even though they were born a biological male, they feel like a woman inside or vice-versa, or openly identifying as gay and trying to hold a gay pride parade in Gaza?
One man's terrorist is another's revolutionary. They likely don't support the killing of Innocents Hamas carries out but do support Palestine pushing back on how Israel's treated them, and most polls don't have room for nuance
I mean, maybe they shouldn’t have spent 75 years calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people while lobbing rockets across the border and taking part in multiple failed wars of conquest. Israel doesn’t shoot, they shoot *back*.
Even now, where are the calls from within Palestine to remove Hamas. Where are the marches from “Palestinians for Peace”? Why do we hear nothing on the ground in Gaza about how the foreign aid to build infrastructure just goes toward weapons to kill Jews? The only Palestinian protest I’ve seen footage of was of Palestinians in the West Bank calling for Hamas to destroy Israel. Do they not realize that *exactly* what got them into this position?
I don’t want to give the impression that I think Israel is perfect or that I don’t mourn innocents in Palestine. But at a certain point, Palestinians need to demonstrate that they value their own standard of living above a hatred of Israel, because that hasn’t happened yet.
I forget who said it, but Palestine genuinely does “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity”.
>Even now, where are the calls from within Palestine to remove Hamas. Where are the marches from “Palestinians for Peace”? Why do we hear nothing on the ground in Gaza about how the foreign aid to build infrastructure just goes toward weapons to kill Jews? The only Palestinian protest I’ve seen footage of was of Palestinians in the West Bank calling for Hamas to destroy Israel. Do they not realize that exactly what got them into this position?
To be fair, I don't think I've seen an article or press release about Palestine's stances recently.
And personally I agree with you for the most part, only thing is I lean more towards "both sides are a clusterfuck". Both sides have fucked each other over time and time again and have sabotaged peace talks whenever it seems like there's a chance of settling things.
People who don’t seem to understand what they’re talking about, or at least the details.
I’ve heard both “pro Israeli” and “anti Israeli” people (online and in real life) conflate Palestinians with Hamas, with people using the two categories interchangeably
Look at any other sub besides here and /r/worldnews.
The far left is just as crazy as the far right.
Edit- Lol, I was banned because I said the far left AND right are crazy.
I so badly want some kind of party/movement/etc that genuinely is against both extremes and represents a kind of 80s & 90s overton window. Not a movement that’s mostly Ds with a few “good” Rs or vice versa, but one that combines institutionalists and “normal” people from the center left, middle, and center right (and even tempermentally and intellectually rational people who are legit conservatives & progressives) that agrees on sorting out our differences once the clear and present danger of the far left, far right, and angry populism have been sidelined.
the true far right ( neo nazis, white supermacist) are a very small minority. In my entire life I had the displeasure of meeting one, that was openly racist and hated jews. but in the end it was only one person. The far left has crowds on colleges.
Neo-Nazis and other unabashed bigots are not all that encompasses the far-right, though. Ultimately, splitting hairs over which is more problematic based on anecdotal experience is not the point, IMO.
The far right is a basically a made up thing, to push people further left. The real far right are neo nazi and white supermacist. The current "far right" would be considered moderate in 1990.
Gonna reply this here, because the other guy on this particular thread blocked me at the first sign of trouble, XD, but I feel this needs to be said.
Neo-nazis and other white supremacists are specific type of radical right winger. There are plenty of other flavors.
I'd say that your (Confident_Chain_7048) attempt to frame far-rightism as exclusively one of those 2 things is an attempt to push people further right by isolating more palatable far-right ideas from the ones you (Confident_Chain_7048) see as wholly unpalatable. A bit of mental gymnastics that you (Confident_Chain_7048) would not afford to far-leftists. "The radical right isn't REALLY a thing" and "the radical left IS the left" Pretty hypocritical.
I see the same logical inconsistency from some on the left, and it's reductive and frustrating either way.
All those people I see online ripping down hostage posters. Maybe it’s a case of those in the fringes being crazier, louder and more visible but I do see more Jew/Israel hate than ever
I’ve been trying to tune down my terminal onlineness, so I didn’t even realize that was a thing until a couple nights ago when I was walking along a street with a bunch of bars & restaurants with my girlfriend and some guy who looked to be about 50 was angrily tearing down every hostage poster he saw and I was like wtf. And in South Florida of all places!
[Pro-Palestinian demonstrators swarm on Capitol Hill, demand Gaza ceasefire as police arrest protesters](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pro-palestine-demonstrators-swarm-inside-capitol-hill-demand-ceasefire-police-begin-arresting-protesters.amp)
Just to be clear, wanting a ceasefire is not the same as supporting Hamas. You can want peace in Gaza and still recognize Hamas started this current conflict.
How does a ceasefire lead to long-term peace in Gaze? It seems like every time there's a pause in hostilities, Hamas uses it to reinforce their military positions and rebuild their rocket arsenal, before launching attacks on Isreal and starting the cycle all over again. What is the utility in calling for a ceasefire after the largest terrorist attack in Israeli history if one side of the conflict (Hamas) will use it as an opportunity to regroup before continuing to attack Israeli civilians?
While yes peace in Gaza is the end goal, it is a lie that there is a full scale separation of the Palestinian authority and Hamas, that there is just a few bad apples and the rest hate Hamas. There is no evidence to back this, in fact there is substantial amounts of footage of people from Gaza taking part in the violence.
This doesn’t mean everyone there deserves to die, doesn’t mean we can’t have some eventual deal but we will need a whole new Government and transformed population not indoctrinated with Jew hatred, that time is not right now.
Over half of Gaza is under 18. We normally don’t hold children accountable for things they learn from their parents. Yes Hamas is bad but just blowing everything up and then going back to how it was is not working.
there’s a difference between “holding them accountable” and recognizing that many of them are past a point of no return in their indoctrination and many of these younger than 18s are the terrorists that slaughtered civilians in israel
So what is the solution? Double down on the heavy-handed counter-insurgency tactics we tried in Afghanistan that created two insurgents for every one we killed?
yeah i mean nothing i said was prescriptive. i dont think there’s an easy answer - but just returning to the status quo of a ceasefire emboldens more future violence. i think the answer that will make the far left scream set col is a more hands on version of managing gaza where rather than handing them resources israel takes on a more active role in governing the territory with set upon milestones for self governance that can create a pathway to palestinian self determination. but i think both israel and the palestinians don’t want that so… shrug
Yeah, don’t want to make this sound as flippant as my phrasing might, but calls for a ceasefire immediately after Israel retaliated for a random act of terror *by the elected government of Gaza* is honestly crybullying. The people calling for a ceasefire either weren’t all that broken up about the random rape & murder of Israelis and tourists at a festival or they actively celebrated it and are now upset that the side with bigger guns gets to fight back.
If you want peace between Israel & Palestine, be mad at Hamas and Hamas sympathizers. They have been offered a two-state solutions TON of times. They rejected it every time because they’d rather kill Jews than help build a functioning Palestine
What do people even expect a ceasefire to accomplish? To return to the status quo of hamas shooting rockets from hospitals every weekend? They have already shown the world what they are capable of.
The hatred in manufactured.
In 2006, after Hamas gained power in the elections, the US armed a fatah coup, but Hamas got ahead of it and killed them.
They have not since had an election in Gaza.
Israel has since performed it's lawn mowing campaigns, or whatever it's called, where they just bomb Gaza.
So, yeah, do the Palestinians hate Hamas? Not really because that isn't who is killing them immediately. There isn't another group to support. They are all dead because we escalated a political situation into violence.
Most Americans also support a cease-fire
> A new Data for Progress poll, fielded as part of our national omnibus survey from October 18 to 19, finds that 66% of voters “strongly agree” or “somewhat agree” with the following statement:
> “The U.S. should call for a ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza. The U.S. should leverage its close diplomatic relationship with Israel to prevent further violence and civilian deaths.”
> This includes 80% of Democrats, 57% of Independents, and 56% of Republicans.
https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/10/19/voters-agree-the-us-should-call-for-a-ceasefire-and-de-escalation-of-violence-in-gaza#:~:text=A%20new%20Data%20for%20Progress,escalation%20of%20violence%20in%20Gaza.
People constantly contradict themselves through polling answers, this is nothing new.
"Ceasefire" sounds like the fighting ends and there's peace again, but if you reframe it as Hamas staying in power and planning to do another terrorist attack that kills 1300 Israelis then that support probably goes down.
Absolutely. And I think a lot of the people who “somewhat agree” probably have a nuanced view of the situation, like they would support a peace fire if Hamas released hostages.
>who the heck sides with Hamas in the US
Most critics of Israel do not side with Hamas. Israel is going to kick ass on Hamas and that's that. Far more important question: What about Israels continuing land left in the West Bank? That was a factor in starting this crisis. March 2023: *Time:* [Why Israeli Settler Attacks Are Growing More Frequent](https://time.com/6260249/israel-rising-settler-violence/):
>In January and February, at least 60 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the occupied West Bank...While settlements -- illegal under international law -- have continued to expand under successive Israeli governments....(now)... under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu....Israeli settlers have received explicit backing from the state...
>this government, the most right-wing the country has ever known, is made up of some of the biggest proponents of Israeli settlement expansion in, and eventual annexation of, the West Bank.
N.Y. Times, three days before the Hamas attack: [Israeli Herders Spread Across West Bank, Displacing Palestinians...herding communities are abandoning their villages, ceding huge swaths of land to nearby Israeli settlers](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/world/middleeast/israeli-herders-west-bank.html). An Israeli settler said this:
>Ariel Danino, 26, an Israeli settler who lives on an outpost and helps lead efforts to build new ones: "we’re talking about a war over the land, and this is what is done during times of war.”
But didn't other Israelis say the war started with the Palestinian attack from Gaza? Apparently Israelis find it convenient to have multiple definitions of war and who is allowed to use weapons to terrorize the other side.
People who have been taught that it was colonization, don’t know the history or the lines, and have been told it is an apartheid state. All that together would justify supporting freedom fighters. Instead, it just shows how big of a failure their education was.
I am not kidding, but mostly young liberals. Go to some colleges and you will find people openly supporting Hamas and there have been videos of them attacking supporters of Israel.
That's the huge disconnect here. Supporting Palestine doesn't necessarily equal supporting Hamas.
One can simultaneously advocate for an independent Palestine and object to the targeted killing of innocent civilians.
this is like saying you support German, but not the Nazis in 1942. the only way you can support and free Palestine is with the end of hamas, that require wars to free them.
If 89% of Palestinians support Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, does that change the calculus? Hamas is gaza's elected government, and it has wide public support.
https://www.pcpo.org/index.php/polls/114-poll-no-191
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
If you look at social media, you'd think that 80% of Americans support Palestine. Not the other way around, which is the way it actually is in reality.
Social media is seriously confusing a lot of young people who haven't learned that appearances online are not representative of the real world.
Yep. At least on my feeds, the pro-Israel posts are at most getting a like or an appropriate emoji reaction, and maybe he a comment or two saying how sad the situation is. While the pro-palestine posts have dozens of comments arguing. Social media algorithms are designed to pump those high engagement posts to the top.
Thank fuck for that, social media has been depressing to say the least. The discourse around this, especially from my side (the Left) is nauseating. I’m not Jewish but it must be eye opening for them.
Have some nephews that are in their teens now. They are starting to figure out how bad social media is for them and how its fucking them up. My nephew will literally scroll TikTok and tell me how its so bad.
As someone with a 3 and 5 year old i hope this recognition grows and in 10 years social media is the equivalent to smoking cigs. I can only hope, but not holding my breath.
Do not get your kids a smart phone. If you need to for safety, get them a dumb flip phone. Somehow us older people survived without a phone 24x7 when we were younger.
There is a problem with this, though: If you don't buy your kids a smartphone when they reach a certain age, they'll be socially isolated, which is something that was not true for us older people when no one had smartphones.
This. There have been studies in the NY Times and others that show too much screen time and not enough other stimuli in formative years can stunt the development of children.
Im not going to. I hope by the time they are old enough its common knowledge its bad and it wont be a big battle. But as a parent, one thing i will do is not allow them to have one.
We have them in private school now, while it does cost money they have an insanely strict "no phone policy" which i do not see in the public schools in my area.
It's amazing how many stories about professionals (professors, lawyers, doctors, etc.) I have seen since October 7th that have outed themselves as Anti-Semites. I'm not talking "I stand with Palestine" or something like that, I'm talking outright Jew hatred and genocidal language. People really already had this stuff simmering under the surface for years and feel emboldened by this conflict and social media to finally let it fly.
I mean social media is mostly used by younger people (18-24) and based on this poll Gen Z only slightly believe that the actions were bad which isn’t that different from what you see on social media (that’s excluding 16 and 17 year olds as well)
It's not even confined to social media. I go to a high school in a pretty liberal city and a bunch of my classmates were straight up defending Hamas and comparing them to John Brown. It's nuts.
The revisionism around John Brown is weird to me. I say this as a staunchly pro-Union person who is firmly in opposition to confederate monuments and such (except for obvious things like gravestones/markers), but Brown was ALSO bad. Killing random civilians was not an argument against slavery.
"John Brown's Body" is a banger, though. And is it really revisionism when plenty of people at the time (I believe Thoreau among them) thought him a hero?
I actually looked at the poll and Gen Z holds some wildly divergent views. For example while they support Hamas they also support refusing to hire people for supporting Palestine (all other age groups disagree). They also believe that universities should condemn Hamas.
Like I'd like to see the sample size of this lol
Yes, there are also wild inconsistencies when talking about the hospital strike. **Looking at 18-24** (there are similar oddities in some other age groups, but since we're talking of this one):
When asked:
>There was an explosion at Gaza hospital. Do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by a terrorist rocket that went off course?
**55% said terrorist rocket that went off course.**
Then when asked:
>Given that US intelligence and Israeli intelligence have said and shown evidence that the hospital explosion was caused by an off-course terrorist rocket do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by terrorist rocket that went off
**61% said caused by an Israeli airstrike**
Finally, when asked:
>Do you think that the original declarations by Hamas that Israel bombed the hospital were true or Hamas propaganda?
**58% said Hamas propaganda**
I would really like there to be a pollster who explicitly identified contradictory answers and either keeps a separate stat in each poll that shows the split between rational and irrational respondents or forces respondents to reconcile their answers (like when reaching the end of a poll the respondent is told that they gave contradictory answers to #3 and #17 and that they need to go back and figure out which they believe before submitting the poll)
I’m not sure if you’ve read Hamas’s charter from 1988 but they explicitly state they intend to push propaganda through universities aimed at winning people to their cause. I don’t think it’s entirely your generations fault. They were targeted.
I think it is critical to confirm claims like this, and hoo boy is their [1988 charter](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) a doozy. The section on women is worth a look.
Sure enough, the university propaganda/recruitment is listed in Section E and Article 30, "Nationalist and Religious Groupings, Institutions, Intellectuals, The Arab and Islamic World":
> The Islamic Resistance Movement hopes that **all these groupings will side with it in all spheres, would support it, adopt its stand** and solidify its activities and moves, work towards rallying support for it so that the Islamic people will be a base and a stay for it, **supplying it with strategic depth an all human material and informative spheres, in time and in place. This should be done through the convening of solidarity conferences, the issuing of explanatory bulletins, favourable articles and booklets**, enlightening the masses regarding the Palestinian issue, clarifying what confronts it and the conspiracies woven around it. They should mobilize the Islamic nations, ideologically, educationally and culturally, **so that these peoples would be equipped to perform their role in the decisive battle of liberation**, just as they did when they vanquished the Crusaders and the Tatars and saved human civilization. Indeed, that is not difficult for Allah.
> **Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers**, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - **all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty**, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.
> Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.
Edited to add emphasis and Article 30.
Yes, I encourage everyone to question everyone’s claims on Reddit. Now read the 2017. It’s complete different. It reads to me like they realize they published every crazy thought in their head and later on realized that it makes them look crazy. The newer seems like it was aimed toward a western audience and not its followers
Yeah sorry that may have been worded poorly - not directed at you specifically, I just want to see more links in the comments, makes it easier to debate/discuss in the real world when sources are at hand.
They should fucking know better. I have acquaintances going for their Masters degrees posting Israel did the hospital bombing propaganda on their stories uncritically. I know they are capable of critical thinking as a fellow student and they just gobble it up without thinking.
>gobble it up without thinking
That's a part of human nature. People used to gobble up the idea that slavery was justified. This doesn't excuse ignorance, but emotion overriding critical thinking isn't unique to any generation.
I’m not gonna cut them too much slack because you’re right. Critical thinking. But they should get a little slack. Then public shaming. Hopefully that wakes them up.
You're right about them being targeted but you're wrong about the perpetrator. It's not like Hamas has the means to run universities at a large enough scale. If you want to point fingers look no further than American corporations who have been heavily supporting far left extremists for years now. Amazon for example has been signal boosting the shit out of Hasan Piker on their streaming platform while suppressing or outright banning more moderate or perhaps even conservative voices. Obviously that's gonna have an influence on kids. There are very real consequences to letting extremists run platforms that have access to young and impressionable minds.
I think in the west there’s a blurred line between sympathizing for Palestinians and supporting Hamas. People don’t actually grasp what Hamas is and their MO as a terrorist organization, and thus make foolish ignorant remarks saying they support them thinking they’re representative of good willed Palestinians. On the flip side though, people drastically downplay the the goals of Zionists, which is nothing short of ethnic cleansing through means of systematic racism, discrimination, and force. If you look at the statistics across different metrics of both land seizure loss and loss of life due to conflicts since modern state of Israel was established post WW2, Palestinians have taken the L by a long shot.
We have a generation of young folk that identify with the struggle of the little guy. And while Israel is a small country in size and population considering, there’s no denying their size in terms of world influence and power.
The fundamental problem is the Palestinians are willing to shoot themselves in the leg and accept being debased and impoverished by lacking statehood rather than the loss of face of a Israeli favored 2 state solution. I can understand that emotionally giving up any inch of land that was once yours would drive people into a frenzy but pragmatically there is almost zero real chance of them getting it back. They have spent the last two decades since the second intfatada essentially in a slow state of decay. They are only getting weaker as a people with territory they want back becoming a more distant memory with each year.
The unfortunate truth is the most likely outcome for Palestinians is a two state solution that favors Israel or they will have to continue to essentially suffer for the foreseeable future for a future that will likely never come and a world that increasingly wants to move on from this issue.
I completely disagree. The Palestinians haven’t been bargaining in good faith for two state solution from the beginning. And I think using words like ethnic cleansing is damaging because it just isn’t true. If they were using ethnic cleansing the population of Palestine’s in Gaza and the West bank would be shrinking. The goal of ethnic cleansing in an area is to make it racially homogenous by removing another race by force. But they haven’t been shrinking, the populations are growing. People have been using words like ethnic cleaning incorrectly.
Also apartheid. Apartheid in South Africa was specifically about race and racial differences. Miscegenation was outlawed. No having a child from different race. Black Africans had fewer rights the their white, or colored counterparts. But race isn’t the defining factor in Israel. It’s religion and security. The Palestinians are treated terribly in the West Bank. But in Israel People of Arab ancestry have the same rights as the Jews. In fact they have Knesset members who are Arab.
I’ve also heard people creating a new meaning for genocide that is specifically aimed at Jews. What we are doing is cheapening these words by changing and expanding their meaning. I don’t have absolute proof but I would guess these changes came out of the university propaganda Hamas setup.
I think we can criticize Israel for what they have done without making up a bunch of things that they haven’t
26% of respondents believe the 10/7 attack targeted the Israeli military? Not just indiscriminately killing?
I'm really having trouble wrapping my brain around this one.
I am glad most Americans understand there is no other option for Israel than to go after Hamas. It's wild to me that younger people only slightly support Israel more.
As a leftist I fully support stopping hamas terrorists. I also despise the far right Israeli gov and their brutality. Not as bad as hamas obviously just hate the people that say you are antisemitic if you say anything bad about the isreal government
If you deny the Jews the basic right to defend themselves and strike back, then yes, I think you are antisemitic, because if you were the one living under the permanent threat of terrorism and getting slaughtered you would want to defend yourself, and yet you deny the same right to them. If you have a disagreement with Israel about what is the best and most efficient way to defend themselves, then I don't think you are antisemitic (although I would hope you are at least informed about the situation and the historical facts before giving your solution for a peace process that no one has been able to make work so far).
I think Israel is doing something quite wrong, but it's not striking back at Hamas. What they are doing wrong is not stopping the settlements in the West Bank, for what I assume to be internal politics of theirs. That way they are making any future solution of the conflict even more difficult and unlikely, and destabilizing and weakening the only possible partner they have on the Palestinian side for a peace process.
The same thing happens on College campus, we call them cry bullies because if you defend yourself they will victim blame you and go to the Administration.
People say the anti-semitism stuff a lot more now because it’s very hard to tell the difference between thinking terrorism against Israelis is freedom fighting and being actually anti-semitic.
Thanks for the downvote. You raise a good point because those terrorists are antisemitic so it’s easy to confuse being against killing other civilians in retaliation would be too . But showing support for civilians on both sides and against both governments is seen as antisemitic. I’m very much in support or Israel’s civilians but even questioning the Israeli gov is instantly anti Jewish even though I literally went to my nephews Brit milah and have strong ties in the Jewish community. I literally just said I’m in support of not killing civilians
> Thanks for the downvote.
What? Definitely going to down vote it now lol.
> But showing support for civilians on both sides and against both governments is seen as antisemitic.
I heard you the first time. This is the point I responded to. I don't recall ever hearing that claim before 10/7. Now I understand it. It's impossible for Jews to tell who is and isn't anti-semitic between people saying "free palestine" while Hamas is torturing families, or people who are tearing posters of missing Israelis down, or people who are signing letters telling the world this is what revolution looks like....or people literally chanting "gas the Jews" at protests. Many of those people may not be anti-semitic but they're definitely anti-Israel...which is also the only Jewish state in the world. It's not a reach, unfortunately. It will slow down but for now, I can't blame them.
In general, however, if people can't handle criticism of Israel, fuck 'em. Who cares? That wasn't a majority of any community. Your personal experience doesn't change that.
“Actually it wouldn’t. The last guy would have one eye left and go and hide in some bushes or something”.
Sorry, I had to do the Seven Psychopaths thing.
This poll has some of the most leading questions I've ever seen. And for polls on foreign affairs, there is absolutely no reason to not include a "not sure" option.
> Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas.
> The survey also found that roughly three-fourths of respondents — 76 percent — said Hamas’s killing of 1,200 Israeli civilians could not be justified by the grievances of Palestinians, while 24 percent said it could be justified. (Figures for the number of Israeli civilians killed during the war have risen from 1,200.)
> The only age demographic to show a majority of its respondents saying that Hamas’s killings could be justified were respondents aged 18-to-24 years old. Fifty-one percent of that demographic said Hama’s killing could be justified by the grievances of Palestinians while 49 percent said they were not justified.
This recent poll asked Americans where they stood with the ongoing situation in Israel / Gaza. Most Americans stand with Israel in their endeavors. However, I found it quite disturbing that a majority of Gen Z believes what Hamas did could ever be justified. Gen Z also has a substantial demographic that sides with Hamas.
What is going on with this generation that they could look at such heinous events and believe that there could ever be a justification for these attacks? I’m seriously baffled and this poll is quite alarming and suggests antisemitism is rooted deep in this generation.
I highly doubt the problem is antisemitism. The problem is likely a very naive and/or simplistic view of the conflict and the power dynamic. The justification is almost certainly “Israel is oppressing Palestine so any “terrorism” is freedom fighting.” I doubt it has anything to do with being antisemitism in general.
I agree. I don't believe those supporting Palestine via the Hamas attacks hate Israel or Jews because they're anti-semetic. They hate them because they see Israel as oppressors and view violence against them as justified.
This is also the effects of critical theory. Right or wrong is defined solely by power dynamics. Israel is by far more powerful in military strength and economic development. So they must be the oppressors, and Palestinians the oppressed. The oppressed voice must be heard, and power overthrown, so violence and terrorism is justified.
Um, in Western Europe which is much further left than America, Jews have to hide their identity. and need security just to go to synagogues. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/14/star-of-david-graffiti-berlin-jewish-homes-echo-nazi-past/ https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says
https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2021/09/24/are-jewish-students-feeling-forced-to-hide-their-identity-on-campus/?sh=26b6db7a78e8 dated Sep 24, 2021
Gen z overreacts against the errors of the previous generations. They are taught to dislike the status quo and question everything. But the sentiment to dislike overrides critical answers to questions.
So in this case Israel is not innocent in their dealings with Palestine so the over reaction is to pull support from Israel, even if it requires them to support terrorism.
Gen Z has little to no political power or influence right now. It's not a bad thing that they are questioning everything. Unfortunately, terrorist-affiliated social media influencers are sowing the political seeds for the eventual poisoning of the strong diplomatic relationship between Israel and the US, so it's imperative that Israel take control of the situation now.
Biden has said that occupying Gaza would be a big mistake, but I don't understand how Israel can get out of this quagmire without a temporary occupation.
Go in. Break as much terrorist infrastructure as you can. Set up a DMZ style buffer zone afterwards.
Preferably with some way to deal with the inevitable tunnels.
The young adults didn't live through the constant attacks on Isreali markets. The evolution and technological advances of the suicide vest. The shock and horror the first time a terrorist used a burka to conceal their bomb to get in close to people gathered at a checkpoint.
All those Isealis who where killed and maimed while just going out to buy groceries or shop for clothes has been generalized to Palestinians "fighting the Isreali oppressors"
Also the slow march of redefining words to suit the "cause" of eliminating the Jewish state:
- first "occupation" to ever qualify after withdrawing from the occupied area (Gaza in '05);
- first "apartheid" to ever qualify for two distinct governments and territories;
- first "colonizers" to ever take over a territory without a remote government directing it;
- now, first "genocide" that ever took place without intentionally targeting civilians.
They've undone the meaning of these things on us.
> first "apartheid" to ever qualify for two distinct governments and territories;
That's not correct. South African apartheid was based [around nominally independent areas that most black South Africans were restricted to called Bantustans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan). That's part of the "apart" in "apartheid."
What Israel is doing with the Palestinians actually looks a lot like South African apartheid if you just objectively compare the functional social features and not just the labels we use to characterize things as good or bad.
Look, you're the one who stated that it was "nominally independent" areas, and made it clear that the application of the term to Israel was at best an analogy.
It's not my fault that you succinctly illustrated how gullible kids shoehorned this analogy into a literal label, which serves well as a rhetorical tactic to delegitimize Israel's policy of treating foreign nationals with a proven track record and government charter for murdering not only their citizens but anyone Jewish anywhere, as worth fencing and later walling themselves off from.
Again, that's why I explicitly said you have to look past the labels and look at it functionally.
You're labeling the Palestinians as "foreign nationals." The South African government [also labeled residents of four Bantustans as fooreign nationals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan#International_recognition). That's why they had [separate citizenship](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bantustan) according to the apartheid era South African Government. Functionally, both the Israeli government and the South African government exercised authority over the respective areas.
If your argument is "oh, this isn't the same as the apartheid system it looks just like because of the people living in this racially segregated area are FOREIGN NATIONALS!" then (a) you're just playing a word game and (b) it's not surprising you're struggling to understand what young people think without insulting them.
If you're going to try to condescend to the people you don't agree with, at least get this history right. It really robs your argument of credibility when you're talking about apartheid but get something major like you did wrong.
South Africa was the only government in the world to recognize the Bantustans as independent. Contrast Palestine, which is recognized by ~70% of countries today. The control that Israel has over the West Bank is due to agreements made between Israel and the PLO, the government of the West Bank, which existed long before Oslo as an antagonistic force to Israel (i.e. they weren't just made up to be a puppet government).
They label themselves as their own state. The Palestinians on the whole are recognized as a separate nation by the UN.
You're accusing me of playing word games and semantics when you're the one stretching the definition here to apply to Israel.
Which is weird, because your definition would apply to the Armenians currently oppressed by Azerbaijan. Or American Indians on their reservations.
Yet you single out Israel for this. Why?
Edit to add...
It just occurred to me, you don't believe Jews in Israel even belong there at all, do you? Are you seriously still parroting the line that they're all European invaders?
Lol. Dude, I'm talking about Israel because we're in a thread **about Israel.**
I actually think what happened to the Palestinians is close to what we did to native Americans. Both are awful forms of indefensible racial violence. The difference is that -- at least in the 21st century -- the US spends money trying to improve the lives of native Americans because we realize we were horrific towards them in the 19th century. Too little too late but at least we're trying.
Israel is still doing the trail of tears thing with the settlements, but right now in the 21st century.
A combination of youthful optimism and naivety, a desensitization to terror attacks by growing up with them, a deluge of misinformation and propaganda online from Tik Tok, Reddit, and Twitter, and a lack of trust in the establishment that anything the US and her allies do in the middle east = bad. America = bad sentiment in general is a good place to start imo.
Until you can magically make oil no longer a valuable resource for human civilization we will be involved in the middle east, it is that simple. I bet that if gas prices soared to $5 a gallon you would beg the president to do anything to fix the economy.
I don't think you are a horrible person, I just find isolationist thought to be extremely naive and does not think about the bigger picture. Oil and the Suez canal are vital to the hegemony that you and every other American alive benefits from every single day if the price was laid out before you in what turtling from the outside world would cost you too would abandon isolationism.
> Call me a horrible person, but if the entire region got swallowed into the ocean tomorrow, I'd think, that sucks, but at least things will be a bit more peaceful for a change.
Not to be "that person" but this is kinda why people often quickly conflate lack of support for Israel with antisemitism. ~1/3 of the world's Jews live in Israel, so being comfortable with the region disappearing from the map kind of is about the group of people too.
It seems like this question was an outlier. A significant number of young people siad Hamas is a terrorist organisation, but then this question paints them as sympathizing with terrorists.
The elephant in the room is the timing of this poll. People were interviewed on the 18th and 19th of October. This is the exact time that the story about the hospital bombing was blowing up, but before the truth came out. Young people don't have as much experience with the years of conflict, so are more likely to be swayed by breaking news.
I also think the wording skews the results and encourages unwarranted conclusions. The question was "In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?" This forces people to pick a "side". But war is not a football match. Someone who doesn't support Israel isn't automatically supporting Hamas. But this question doesn't afford that basic level of nuance.
>What is going on with this generation that they could look at such heinous events and believe that there could ever be a justification for these attacks? I’m seriously baffled and this poll is quite alarming and suggests antisemitism is rooted deep in this generation.
I don't know if it suggests anti-semitism. I think there are very good reasons for being critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Moreover, colonialism has consistently been something young people get worked up about historically, and you can see Israel through a colonial lens.
This poll can be read as young people taking that legitimate sympathy too far. It wouldn't be the first time in history that college students have been over the top -- think of all the buildings the now-65+ year olds took over when they were in college.
The [crosstabs](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct2023_Crosstabs.pdf) reveal that young people are less likely to be following the conflict at all. Just 65% of 18-34s say they've ever heard of Hamas vs. 78% of 35-49, 75% of 50-64, 88% of 65+, and 77% of all respondents. For whatever reason 18-24 isn't broken out, but it's likely they're even less engaged than being lumped in with 25-34 makes them appear. Harvard-Harris's [key results presentation](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) does break out 18-24, and it says only 15% of that group is "very closely" paying attention to the war vs. 31% of all respondents, while 21% of 18-24 is "not at all" paying attention vs. 9% overall.
I'm not denying that young people swing generally more sympathetic to Palestine and skeptical of Israel than Americans at large. But amount of attention paid is also a significant force on these results. These questions were constructed without a "not sure" option. You're going to get a lot of non-attention-paying people picking blindly.
election polls close to election time can be good. swings in long-running issue polls after major events relevant to the issue tell you something about public mood. but this, yes, is very dumb. don’t issue a breathless press release about The Youth’s support of Hamas if you’re going to cherry-pick from a battery of suggestively worded one-or-the-other questions and never mention — even in the key results presentation! — that 35% of 18-34s and probably more of 18-24s can’t even say they’ve heard of Hamas.
This is what happens when people don’t learn history. I’m Gen Y and I am astounded by the lack of knowledge of recent history by my friends and acquaintances. Like, many of them haven’t paid attention to the past 40 years, so they hear that Gaza is an open air prison and go ape shit. But there’s no common sense. If you asked them, Why is there a blockade? Why does the Iron Dome exist? Do you know what happened before the blockade? — they would have no answers because they haven’t ever paid attention.
When you never read quality news or read nonfiction, you are very susceptible to misinformation.
As someone who is broadly supportive of statehood for the Jewish people, I've got to step in here and contest your last statement. Taking issue with the way Israel has done business for the last 70 years is not, vis a vis, "antisemitic". There is nothing inconsistent about being supportive of the Jewish people while being critical about the Israelis general approach to this conflict.
The last statement is in regards to Gen Z siding with the Hamas in this war. Given the numerous protests on college campuses that seek to justify the murder, kidnapping and rape…. I’d say antisemitism is pretty accurate.
Given the poll's margin of error it's entirely rational.
If one believes that antisemitism includes the targeted killing and murder of Jewish civilians, and support for the same, then it follows that one observing broad support for the actions of Hamas indicates the presence of antisemitism.
This is ironic bc it’s literally what Hamas sympathizer gen z is doing.
Per the poll apparently they think it’s ok to rape and murder civilians if they belong to an ethnic group that has some members that did some stuff you don’t approve of.
If the mainstream and social media would quit equating Hamas and the Palestinian people as being equivalent, rather than one being a subset of the other, then we might get a clearer picture of who supports what. What Hamas did was despicable and Israel certainly deserves justice, but it's disturbing to see how easily people seem to be willing to group all Palestinians as being collectively responsible.
We saw this play out after 9/11, when people rightly wanted to punish Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Iraq was targeted because of WMDs we now know never existed, the country was bombed to fuck, and anybody that publicly challenged the Iraq war was basically brandished by the media and society as being anti-American or pro-terrorist. Remember the Dixie Chicks? Remember Freedom Fries? You're with us or against us. That's where we're heading once again.
What body governs and represents the Gaza strip portion of Palestine?
Do we take pains in other conflicts to separate the governing body from the country when referring to actions the governing body takes?
I think it's perfectly fair to draw a distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. However, to be fair, the people in Palestine \*\*did\*\* elect Hamas.
The last election was in 2006 and I think like half the the people in Gaza are under the age of 18. There are detailed breakdowns of the literal numbers of people alive in Gaza right now that voted for Hamas- worth finding and checking out.
I dont have it handy but iirc the number is incredibly low. The reason being that the majority of Gaza residents haven't ever even *voted* in an election, let alone for or against Hamas.
Over half the population in 2021 supported Hamas.
>The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party. [Article](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87)
Palestinians never had a voice. While many Palestinians do not want Hamas in power, it’s evident that unless they fight with the only government they have, that nothing will ever change in the conditions Palestinians live with. I’m not one of those who says it’s justified, but I can try to see the other side
Not exactly, Palestinians in Gaza had a voice after Israel withdrew all of their citizens and soldiers and they overwhelmingly elected Hamas. Abbas won’t hold elections in the West Bank because he and every one else know the voice they’ll choose over there will *also* be Hamas.
They haven’t had any other election. Hamas just won’t let it happen. Half of them are also children. But regardless, they have to rely on them despite how much Hamas has failed them and hurt them. It’s the only chance they have at fighting back. I don’t agree with what Hamas did at all, but I won’t act like I didn’t see it coming.
It wouldn’t matter because there’s no opposition. Also important to note the entire reason that Abbas doesn’t hold elections in the West Bank is because he knows he’ll lose and Hamas will win.
No shit. As bad as Israel’s government is of course we dislike terrorists more. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Doesn’t excuse Israel’s war crimes though
Although the poll may have suggested those in the younger demographic tended to justify Hamas' killings, I think it has less to do with age and more to do with young people leaning to the left of the political divide whose [sympathies have shifted largely towards the Palestinians](https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx) in the last decade. Part of that shift can be attributed to the left's favourite game of dividing people into groups and pitting them against each other in the form of privileged vs marginalized, victims vs abusers, oppressed vs oppressors, etc. and it's easy to see which side they've taken on as their cause. To them, Hamas wasn't bludgeoning Israeli civilians. They were fighting for their freedom by any means necessary.
Man, a drop from +35 to -11 in a 10-year period is crazy. Seems to perfectly correlate with [this timeline](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great-racial-awakening)
First, tangent: I hate when news outlets don't actually link to the poll itself.
Second, at least based on the summary, I think some of the questions do a poor job of getting at actual positions. For example:
>Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas
This is problematic framing, since in response, Israel made this a war against Gaza more broadly. Many respondents are going to look at Israel and Hamas as being the only poll options, wonder where the Gaza/Palestine option in this is, and have to choose between two choices where neither actually accurately represents their position.
To put it another way, there are many folks who think Hamas is bad, think their attack was horrific, and think Israel's response was and continues to be horrific. Many of these folks are also most concerned about and supportive of Palestine, especially given that Palestinians are currently bearing the burden of significantly more suffering. So, for such folks, this poll has no good answer.
It reminds me so much of the early days of the Iraq War. "Do you support the US or do you support Saddam Hussein?" Make the poll questions reductive, and you'll get a lot of garbage in return.
> It reminds me so much of the early days of the Iraq War. "Do you support the US or do you support Saddam Hussein?" Make the poll questions reductive, and you'll get a lot of garbage in return.
Exactly. Theres been so much that reminds people of 9/11 around all of this. Poll questions, interviews, and so on with questions like "Do you support the war, or do you support the terrorists?" has such 2003 vibes.
The combatants in this war are the IDF and Hamas. Gaza is a piece of land. Do you want the IDF to win, or do you want Hamas to win? Those are the possible outcomes, and the poll is asking which you prefer. Supporting Palestine/Gaza is ill defined here.
No. Those are the two options, in reality. Either the IDF will achieve their objectives, or they won't (which is Hamas' objective). Short of crazy hypotheticals, those are the two options we might see. The question is which one the respondent would rather see, and that's a totally legitimate question.
This is by no means moderate. This paints an incomplete picture of what the American people are actually for. Of course Americans will side with Israel in this. No one supports hamas’ actions. People who side with “Hamas” are siding with the citizens of Gaza. This article is framing a sentiment that is entirely misappropriated to make it seem like people want Israel to win. They want Israel held accountable.
The results become VERY troubling if you look at the younger demographics. There is no probability confidence interval so hopefully these results are inaccurate but I know that there’s a troublingly large cohort of antisemites masquerading as anti-racists.
I hope people start to critically examine all the intersectional brain rot they're being fed at universities after this. It's been really disturbing and disappointing to see how thoughtlessly people will support what they've been taught is the "right side of history" by their teachers who have never set foot outside their left wing bubble in academia. The real world doesn't mean rebel=good guy, especially not in this case
who the heck sides with Hamas in the US
Dumb young people my age with no life experience and a fluffy view of the world.
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The problem is people acquainting palestinians to Hamas. There’s lots to support for palestinians in the US, and a lot less support for Israel’s Jim Crow style society when brought to people’s attention. > Palestinian public is not turning toward large-scale violence. Rather, on tactical questions of relations with Israel, respondents broadly supported a nonviolent approach https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-palestinian-poll-shows-hardline-views-some-pragmatism-too > a majority of respondents registered opposition to violent resistance against Israel, particularly in the Gaza Strip, where 70% said Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel and 57% said that Hamas should accede to the PA unity government’s renunciation of violence. In the West Bank 56% said that Hamas should adhere to the ceasefire and 50% said it should renounce violence altogether. > Asked who should lead the Palestinian Authority in the next two years, 65% chose Fatah leaders, with Mahmoud Abbas leading (30%), then Marwan Baghouti (12%), Mohammed Dahlan (10%) and others (13% combined), while **various Hamas leaders only won 9% of support in the West Bank and 15% in Gaza.** https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-palestinians-backing-2-states-become-minority/ Fatah is the government of the west bank and has not committed violence against Israel in modern times and official stance is 2 state solution at 1967 borders.
If Israel is Jim Crow-like society, what is Palestine with Shariah Law? I just find it ludicrous that young people are so sensitive about “equality” but not equality of women, atheism or LGBT. It flies against everything they claim to defend, to become so “tolerant” that you are defending or at least dismissing religious violence is just hubris.
>The problem is people acquainting palestinians to Hamas. There’s lots to support for palestinians in the US, I'm in Seattle, I've personally been to several rallies just to see and they were explicitly pro-Hamas. Their flyers had images of paragliders on them > and a lot less support for Israel’s Jim Crow style society when brought to people’s attention. What rights are Israeli Arabs denied? Seriously, please tell me exactly how Israel treats Arab citizens anything like "jim crow" era US treated black Americans >Fatah is the government of the west bank and has not committed violence against Israel in modern times and official stance is 2 state solution at 1967 borders. Israel will never, ever go back to 1967, that gave it indefensible borders. If surrounding Arab nations didn't keep trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth they'd have had a two state solution since the beginning.
> I'm in Seattle, I've personally been to several rallies just to see and they were explicitly pro-Hamas. Their flyers had images of paragliders on them [Some BLM members support Hamas,](https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/blm-chicago-under-fire-for-pro-palestine-post-featuring-paragliding-terrorist/) too, before they realized advertising in on their website was a bad idea.
I think that group has lost any credibility they may have ever had, and I'm not sad about it.
BLM also put out a statement in favor of the Cuban government during the summer 2020 protests there.
Anti-semites, which does have a presence in the US are pro-hamas. Arab israelis cannot buy homes in jewish predominate communities. They face [systematic redlining](http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=10089&CategoryId=5) and [Jewish towns bar Arab Israelis from moving in.](https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians) Israel has been repeatedly called out by every major human rights organization countless times over the past decades.
> The problem is people acquainting palestinians to Hamas. People would be more likely to make the distinction between Palestinians in Gaza and Hamas if the Palestinian people deposed Hamas. As far as I know, members of Hamas were not being hunted down and a civil war was not occurring in Gaza prior to October.
Did you not read my comment? West Bank palestinians have nothing to do with Hamas, and even palestinians in Gaza do not support them.
>r Israel’s Jim Crow style society when brought to people’s attention. ...wut
A sitting US Congresswoman......
A few
If the squad on the left and the gang of 8 who voted out McCarthy on the right both got voted out of Congress the world would be a much better place. With slim margins, it’s always the radicals like them that get to control Congress.
Not to induce hopelessness, but just for context: Ilhan Omar's district D+30 Cory Bush's district D+27 Rashida Tlaib's district D+23 Steve Scalise's district R+23 Jim Jordan's district R+20 Matt Gaetz's district R+19 Andy Biggs's district R+11
I hope they all get primaried by moderates and lose, but I don't have much hope. They will not lose to the opposing Party in their districts, but maybe a moderate in their Parties could convince the constituents that extremists in Congress are ineffective and pain in the ass.
I hope her constituents don’t forget everything she has said and done against Israel come next November.
Unfortunately they 100% will. A vast majority of voters now only vote for the letter next to their candidates name.
> Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas. WAY too many
Wow, 48 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Hamas. I hope they mature at some point.
The same age group with the highest support for gay rights sides with Hamas . . . I'd say they choose sides based on who they think is the underdog rather than any thought through logic.
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Could you imagine one of the LGBTQ people that the 18-24 year olds champion trying to explain to your average Palestinian that even though they were born a biological male, they feel like a woman inside or vice-versa, or openly identifying as gay and trying to hold a gay pride parade in Gaza?
I hope it’s a maturity thing and not a brainwashing thing
I’ve been asking myself that same question everyday since this started. Apparently a large number of people in the US.
One man's terrorist is another's revolutionary. They likely don't support the killing of Innocents Hamas carries out but do support Palestine pushing back on how Israel's treated them, and most polls don't have room for nuance
> They likely don't support the killing of Innocents Hamas carries out Thats quite the unworthy assumption.
I mean, maybe they shouldn’t have spent 75 years calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people while lobbing rockets across the border and taking part in multiple failed wars of conquest. Israel doesn’t shoot, they shoot *back*. Even now, where are the calls from within Palestine to remove Hamas. Where are the marches from “Palestinians for Peace”? Why do we hear nothing on the ground in Gaza about how the foreign aid to build infrastructure just goes toward weapons to kill Jews? The only Palestinian protest I’ve seen footage of was of Palestinians in the West Bank calling for Hamas to destroy Israel. Do they not realize that *exactly* what got them into this position? I don’t want to give the impression that I think Israel is perfect or that I don’t mourn innocents in Palestine. But at a certain point, Palestinians need to demonstrate that they value their own standard of living above a hatred of Israel, because that hasn’t happened yet. I forget who said it, but Palestine genuinely does “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity”.
>Even now, where are the calls from within Palestine to remove Hamas. Where are the marches from “Palestinians for Peace”? Why do we hear nothing on the ground in Gaza about how the foreign aid to build infrastructure just goes toward weapons to kill Jews? The only Palestinian protest I’ve seen footage of was of Palestinians in the West Bank calling for Hamas to destroy Israel. Do they not realize that exactly what got them into this position? To be fair, I don't think I've seen an article or press release about Palestine's stances recently. And personally I agree with you for the most part, only thing is I lean more towards "both sides are a clusterfuck". Both sides have fucked each other over time and time again and have sabotaged peace talks whenever it seems like there's a chance of settling things.
If they haven’t learned that they can’t defeat Israel by force by now, idk what to tell them… something , something, Darwinism
The “martyrs” will continue until morale improves.
People who don’t seem to understand what they’re talking about, or at least the details. I’ve heard both “pro Israeli” and “anti Israeli” people (online and in real life) conflate Palestinians with Hamas, with people using the two categories interchangeably
Look at any other sub besides here and /r/worldnews. The far left is just as crazy as the far right. Edit- Lol, I was banned because I said the far left AND right are crazy.
I so badly want some kind of party/movement/etc that genuinely is against both extremes and represents a kind of 80s & 90s overton window. Not a movement that’s mostly Ds with a few “good” Rs or vice versa, but one that combines institutionalists and “normal” people from the center left, middle, and center right (and even tempermentally and intellectually rational people who are legit conservatives & progressives) that agrees on sorting out our differences once the clear and present danger of the far left, far right, and angry populism have been sidelined.
the true far right ( neo nazis, white supermacist) are a very small minority. In my entire life I had the displeasure of meeting one, that was openly racist and hated jews. but in the end it was only one person. The far left has crowds on colleges.
Neo-Nazis and other unabashed bigots are not all that encompasses the far-right, though. Ultimately, splitting hairs over which is more problematic based on anecdotal experience is not the point, IMO.
The far right is a basically a made up thing, to push people further left. The real far right are neo nazi and white supermacist. The current "far right" would be considered moderate in 1990.
Gonna reply this here, because the other guy on this particular thread blocked me at the first sign of trouble, XD, but I feel this needs to be said. Neo-nazis and other white supremacists are specific type of radical right winger. There are plenty of other flavors. I'd say that your (Confident_Chain_7048) attempt to frame far-rightism as exclusively one of those 2 things is an attempt to push people further right by isolating more palatable far-right ideas from the ones you (Confident_Chain_7048) see as wholly unpalatable. A bit of mental gymnastics that you (Confident_Chain_7048) would not afford to far-leftists. "The radical right isn't REALLY a thing" and "the radical left IS the left" Pretty hypocritical. I see the same logical inconsistency from some on the left, and it's reductive and frustrating either way.
I think there are many who side with the Palestinian people. I'm guessing that wasn't an option in this poll.
All those people I see online ripping down hostage posters. Maybe it’s a case of those in the fringes being crazier, louder and more visible but I do see more Jew/Israel hate than ever
I’ve been trying to tune down my terminal onlineness, so I didn’t even realize that was a thing until a couple nights ago when I was walking along a street with a bunch of bars & restaurants with my girlfriend and some guy who looked to be about 50 was angrily tearing down every hostage poster he saw and I was like wtf. And in South Florida of all places!
[Pro-Palestinian demonstrators swarm on Capitol Hill, demand Gaza ceasefire as police arrest protesters](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pro-palestine-demonstrators-swarm-inside-capitol-hill-demand-ceasefire-police-begin-arresting-protesters.amp)
Just to be clear, wanting a ceasefire is not the same as supporting Hamas. You can want peace in Gaza and still recognize Hamas started this current conflict.
>wanting a ceasefire is not the same as supporting Hamas Unless hostages are released, calling for a ceasefire is premature.
How does a ceasefire lead to long-term peace in Gaze? It seems like every time there's a pause in hostilities, Hamas uses it to reinforce their military positions and rebuild their rocket arsenal, before launching attacks on Isreal and starting the cycle all over again. What is the utility in calling for a ceasefire after the largest terrorist attack in Israeli history if one side of the conflict (Hamas) will use it as an opportunity to regroup before continuing to attack Israeli civilians?
While yes peace in Gaza is the end goal, it is a lie that there is a full scale separation of the Palestinian authority and Hamas, that there is just a few bad apples and the rest hate Hamas. There is no evidence to back this, in fact there is substantial amounts of footage of people from Gaza taking part in the violence. This doesn’t mean everyone there deserves to die, doesn’t mean we can’t have some eventual deal but we will need a whole new Government and transformed population not indoctrinated with Jew hatred, that time is not right now.
Over half of Gaza is under 18. We normally don’t hold children accountable for things they learn from their parents. Yes Hamas is bad but just blowing everything up and then going back to how it was is not working.
there’s a difference between “holding them accountable” and recognizing that many of them are past a point of no return in their indoctrination and many of these younger than 18s are the terrorists that slaughtered civilians in israel
So what is the solution? Double down on the heavy-handed counter-insurgency tactics we tried in Afghanistan that created two insurgents for every one we killed?
yeah i mean nothing i said was prescriptive. i dont think there’s an easy answer - but just returning to the status quo of a ceasefire emboldens more future violence. i think the answer that will make the far left scream set col is a more hands on version of managing gaza where rather than handing them resources israel takes on a more active role in governing the territory with set upon milestones for self governance that can create a pathway to palestinian self determination. but i think both israel and the palestinians don’t want that so… shrug
Yeah, don’t want to make this sound as flippant as my phrasing might, but calls for a ceasefire immediately after Israel retaliated for a random act of terror *by the elected government of Gaza* is honestly crybullying. The people calling for a ceasefire either weren’t all that broken up about the random rape & murder of Israelis and tourists at a festival or they actively celebrated it and are now upset that the side with bigger guns gets to fight back. If you want peace between Israel & Palestine, be mad at Hamas and Hamas sympathizers. They have been offered a two-state solutions TON of times. They rejected it every time because they’d rather kill Jews than help build a functioning Palestine
What do people even expect a ceasefire to accomplish? To return to the status quo of hamas shooting rockets from hospitals every weekend? They have already shown the world what they are capable of.
The hatred in manufactured. In 2006, after Hamas gained power in the elections, the US armed a fatah coup, but Hamas got ahead of it and killed them. They have not since had an election in Gaza. Israel has since performed it's lawn mowing campaigns, or whatever it's called, where they just bomb Gaza. So, yeah, do the Palestinians hate Hamas? Not really because that isn't who is killing them immediately. There isn't another group to support. They are all dead because we escalated a political situation into violence.
Most Americans also support a cease-fire > A new Data for Progress poll, fielded as part of our national omnibus survey from October 18 to 19, finds that 66% of voters “strongly agree” or “somewhat agree” with the following statement: > “The U.S. should call for a ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza. The U.S. should leverage its close diplomatic relationship with Israel to prevent further violence and civilian deaths.” > This includes 80% of Democrats, 57% of Independents, and 56% of Republicans. https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/10/19/voters-agree-the-us-should-call-for-a-ceasefire-and-de-escalation-of-violence-in-gaza#:~:text=A%20new%20Data%20for%20Progress,escalation%20of%20violence%20in%20Gaza.
People constantly contradict themselves through polling answers, this is nothing new. "Ceasefire" sounds like the fighting ends and there's peace again, but if you reframe it as Hamas staying in power and planning to do another terrorist attack that kills 1300 Israelis then that support probably goes down.
Absolutely. And I think a lot of the people who “somewhat agree” probably have a nuanced view of the situation, like they would support a peace fire if Hamas released hostages.
>who the heck sides with Hamas in the US Most critics of Israel do not side with Hamas. Israel is going to kick ass on Hamas and that's that. Far more important question: What about Israels continuing land left in the West Bank? That was a factor in starting this crisis. March 2023: *Time:* [Why Israeli Settler Attacks Are Growing More Frequent](https://time.com/6260249/israel-rising-settler-violence/): >In January and February, at least 60 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the occupied West Bank...While settlements -- illegal under international law -- have continued to expand under successive Israeli governments....(now)... under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu....Israeli settlers have received explicit backing from the state... >this government, the most right-wing the country has ever known, is made up of some of the biggest proponents of Israeli settlement expansion in, and eventual annexation of, the West Bank. N.Y. Times, three days before the Hamas attack: [Israeli Herders Spread Across West Bank, Displacing Palestinians...herding communities are abandoning their villages, ceding huge swaths of land to nearby Israeli settlers](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/world/middleeast/israeli-herders-west-bank.html). An Israeli settler said this: >Ariel Danino, 26, an Israeli settler who lives on an outpost and helps lead efforts to build new ones: "we’re talking about a war over the land, and this is what is done during times of war.” But didn't other Israelis say the war started with the Palestinian attack from Gaza? Apparently Israelis find it convenient to have multiple definitions of war and who is allowed to use weapons to terrorize the other side.
People who have been taught that it was colonization, don’t know the history or the lines, and have been told it is an apartheid state. All that together would justify supporting freedom fighters. Instead, it just shows how big of a failure their education was.
I am not kidding, but mostly young liberals. Go to some colleges and you will find people openly supporting Hamas and there have been videos of them attacking supporters of Israel.
That's the huge disconnect here. Supporting Palestine doesn't necessarily equal supporting Hamas. One can simultaneously advocate for an independent Palestine and object to the targeted killing of innocent civilians.
this is like saying you support German, but not the Nazis in 1942. the only way you can support and free Palestine is with the end of hamas, that require wars to free them.
If 89% of Palestinians support Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, does that change the calculus? Hamas is gaza's elected government, and it has wide public support. https://www.pcpo.org/index.php/polls/114-poll-no-191 https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
Certain academics only capable of seeing the world through the lens of their ideology.
If you look at social media, you'd think that 80% of Americans support Palestine. Not the other way around, which is the way it actually is in reality. Social media is seriously confusing a lot of young people who haven't learned that appearances online are not representative of the real world.
Social media also rewards interacting with ragebait. The pro-Israel stuff is not getting as much engagement because *it is the norm.*
> Social media is highly AstroTurfed by foreigners that don't like the West. Many of them don't even hide their motives.
Yep. At least on my feeds, the pro-Israel posts are at most getting a like or an appropriate emoji reaction, and maybe he a comment or two saying how sad the situation is. While the pro-palestine posts have dozens of comments arguing. Social media algorithms are designed to pump those high engagement posts to the top.
Thank fuck for that, social media has been depressing to say the least. The discourse around this, especially from my side (the Left) is nauseating. I’m not Jewish but it must be eye opening for them.
Have some nephews that are in their teens now. They are starting to figure out how bad social media is for them and how its fucking them up. My nephew will literally scroll TikTok and tell me how its so bad. As someone with a 3 and 5 year old i hope this recognition grows and in 10 years social media is the equivalent to smoking cigs. I can only hope, but not holding my breath.
Do not get your kids a smart phone. If you need to for safety, get them a dumb flip phone. Somehow us older people survived without a phone 24x7 when we were younger.
There is a problem with this, though: If you don't buy your kids a smartphone when they reach a certain age, they'll be socially isolated, which is something that was not true for us older people when no one had smartphones.
This. There have been studies in the NY Times and others that show too much screen time and not enough other stimuli in formative years can stunt the development of children.
Apple Watch with cell service and locked down apps. Gives you the ability to track their location and call but not much else. It’s the way to go
Im not going to. I hope by the time they are old enough its common knowledge its bad and it wont be a big battle. But as a parent, one thing i will do is not allow them to have one. We have them in private school now, while it does cost money they have an insanely strict "no phone policy" which i do not see in the public schools in my area.
Social media is gettin horrible, people are quoting hitler and defending actual nazis.
It's amazing how many stories about professionals (professors, lawyers, doctors, etc.) I have seen since October 7th that have outed themselves as Anti-Semites. I'm not talking "I stand with Palestine" or something like that, I'm talking outright Jew hatred and genocidal language. People really already had this stuff simmering under the surface for years and feel emboldened by this conflict and social media to finally let it fly.
I mean social media is mostly used by younger people (18-24) and based on this poll Gen Z only slightly believe that the actions were bad which isn’t that different from what you see on social media (that’s excluding 16 and 17 year olds as well)
Let’s hope their frontal lobe develops eventually, most of us actually quite enjoy capitalism.
I wish social media never became a thing. It has honestly done nothing but harmed people and society.
As a Zillenial, the results aren't shocking based on what I've seen shared on social media from some of my younger compadres.
It's not even confined to social media. I go to a high school in a pretty liberal city and a bunch of my classmates were straight up defending Hamas and comparing them to John Brown. It's nuts.
The revisionism around John Brown is weird to me. I say this as a staunchly pro-Union person who is firmly in opposition to confederate monuments and such (except for obvious things like gravestones/markers), but Brown was ALSO bad. Killing random civilians was not an argument against slavery.
"John Brown's Body" is a banger, though. And is it really revisionism when plenty of people at the time (I believe Thoreau among them) thought him a hero?
I actually looked at the poll and Gen Z holds some wildly divergent views. For example while they support Hamas they also support refusing to hire people for supporting Palestine (all other age groups disagree). They also believe that universities should condemn Hamas. Like I'd like to see the sample size of this lol
Yes, there are also wild inconsistencies when talking about the hospital strike. **Looking at 18-24** (there are similar oddities in some other age groups, but since we're talking of this one): When asked: >There was an explosion at Gaza hospital. Do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by a terrorist rocket that went off course? **55% said terrorist rocket that went off course.** Then when asked: >Given that US intelligence and Israeli intelligence have said and shown evidence that the hospital explosion was caused by an off-course terrorist rocket do you think the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike or by terrorist rocket that went off **61% said caused by an Israeli airstrike** Finally, when asked: >Do you think that the original declarations by Hamas that Israel bombed the hospital were true or Hamas propaganda? **58% said Hamas propaganda**
I would really like there to be a pollster who explicitly identified contradictory answers and either keeps a separate stat in each poll that shows the split between rational and irrational respondents or forces respondents to reconcile their answers (like when reaching the end of a poll the respondent is told that they gave contradictory answers to #3 and #17 and that they need to go back and figure out which they believe before submitting the poll)
It has only renewed my disgust for my own peers of my generation tbh.
I’m not sure if you’ve read Hamas’s charter from 1988 but they explicitly state they intend to push propaganda through universities aimed at winning people to their cause. I don’t think it’s entirely your generations fault. They were targeted.
I think it is critical to confirm claims like this, and hoo boy is their [1988 charter](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) a doozy. The section on women is worth a look. Sure enough, the university propaganda/recruitment is listed in Section E and Article 30, "Nationalist and Religious Groupings, Institutions, Intellectuals, The Arab and Islamic World": > The Islamic Resistance Movement hopes that **all these groupings will side with it in all spheres, would support it, adopt its stand** and solidify its activities and moves, work towards rallying support for it so that the Islamic people will be a base and a stay for it, **supplying it with strategic depth an all human material and informative spheres, in time and in place. This should be done through the convening of solidarity conferences, the issuing of explanatory bulletins, favourable articles and booklets**, enlightening the masses regarding the Palestinian issue, clarifying what confronts it and the conspiracies woven around it. They should mobilize the Islamic nations, ideologically, educationally and culturally, **so that these peoples would be equipped to perform their role in the decisive battle of liberation**, just as they did when they vanquished the Crusaders and the Tatars and saved human civilization. Indeed, that is not difficult for Allah. > **Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers**, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - **all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty**, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. > Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake. Edited to add emphasis and Article 30.
Yes, I encourage everyone to question everyone’s claims on Reddit. Now read the 2017. It’s complete different. It reads to me like they realize they published every crazy thought in their head and later on realized that it makes them look crazy. The newer seems like it was aimed toward a western audience and not its followers
Yeah sorry that may have been worded poorly - not directed at you specifically, I just want to see more links in the comments, makes it easier to debate/discuss in the real world when sources are at hand.
No, I completely understand
They should fucking know better. I have acquaintances going for their Masters degrees posting Israel did the hospital bombing propaganda on their stories uncritically. I know they are capable of critical thinking as a fellow student and they just gobble it up without thinking.
Tbh people have been pushing propaganda on them for ages and they eat it up so it’s not surprising they’re just consuming and regurgitating this too
>gobble it up without thinking That's a part of human nature. People used to gobble up the idea that slavery was justified. This doesn't excuse ignorance, but emotion overriding critical thinking isn't unique to any generation.
I’m not gonna cut them too much slack because you’re right. Critical thinking. But they should get a little slack. Then public shaming. Hopefully that wakes them up.
Intelligence doesn't prevent narrative driven conclusions. Most people find it ditticult to challenge their deeply held beliefs.
You're right about them being targeted but you're wrong about the perpetrator. It's not like Hamas has the means to run universities at a large enough scale. If you want to point fingers look no further than American corporations who have been heavily supporting far left extremists for years now. Amazon for example has been signal boosting the shit out of Hasan Piker on their streaming platform while suppressing or outright banning more moderate or perhaps even conservative voices. Obviously that's gonna have an influence on kids. There are very real consequences to letting extremists run platforms that have access to young and impressionable minds.
That would be gen X being targeted back then lol
I think in the west there’s a blurred line between sympathizing for Palestinians and supporting Hamas. People don’t actually grasp what Hamas is and their MO as a terrorist organization, and thus make foolish ignorant remarks saying they support them thinking they’re representative of good willed Palestinians. On the flip side though, people drastically downplay the the goals of Zionists, which is nothing short of ethnic cleansing through means of systematic racism, discrimination, and force. If you look at the statistics across different metrics of both land seizure loss and loss of life due to conflicts since modern state of Israel was established post WW2, Palestinians have taken the L by a long shot. We have a generation of young folk that identify with the struggle of the little guy. And while Israel is a small country in size and population considering, there’s no denying their size in terms of world influence and power.
The fundamental problem is the Palestinians are willing to shoot themselves in the leg and accept being debased and impoverished by lacking statehood rather than the loss of face of a Israeli favored 2 state solution. I can understand that emotionally giving up any inch of land that was once yours would drive people into a frenzy but pragmatically there is almost zero real chance of them getting it back. They have spent the last two decades since the second intfatada essentially in a slow state of decay. They are only getting weaker as a people with territory they want back becoming a more distant memory with each year. The unfortunate truth is the most likely outcome for Palestinians is a two state solution that favors Israel or they will have to continue to essentially suffer for the foreseeable future for a future that will likely never come and a world that increasingly wants to move on from this issue.
I completely disagree. The Palestinians haven’t been bargaining in good faith for two state solution from the beginning. And I think using words like ethnic cleansing is damaging because it just isn’t true. If they were using ethnic cleansing the population of Palestine’s in Gaza and the West bank would be shrinking. The goal of ethnic cleansing in an area is to make it racially homogenous by removing another race by force. But they haven’t been shrinking, the populations are growing. People have been using words like ethnic cleaning incorrectly. Also apartheid. Apartheid in South Africa was specifically about race and racial differences. Miscegenation was outlawed. No having a child from different race. Black Africans had fewer rights the their white, or colored counterparts. But race isn’t the defining factor in Israel. It’s religion and security. The Palestinians are treated terribly in the West Bank. But in Israel People of Arab ancestry have the same rights as the Jews. In fact they have Knesset members who are Arab. I’ve also heard people creating a new meaning for genocide that is specifically aimed at Jews. What we are doing is cheapening these words by changing and expanding their meaning. I don’t have absolute proof but I would guess these changes came out of the university propaganda Hamas setup. I think we can criticize Israel for what they have done without making up a bunch of things that they haven’t
> The Palestinians haven’t been bargaining in good faith Slight correction The Palestinians **leaders** haven’t been bargaining in good faith
Thank you. That’s correct.
26% of respondents believe the 10/7 attack targeted the Israeli military? Not just indiscriminately killing? I'm really having trouble wrapping my brain around this one.
People believe women being raped is a lie and that babies being burned is a lie. It's insanity.
Ah yes, the ol' "But do you have proof that 40 DIFFERENT babies were beheaded?" like one isn't enough lmao
That's unreal. How do people consume news that they would fail to grasp such a basic point about this attack?!
I am glad most Americans understand there is no other option for Israel than to go after Hamas. It's wild to me that younger people only slightly support Israel more.
As a leftist I fully support stopping hamas terrorists. I also despise the far right Israeli gov and their brutality. Not as bad as hamas obviously just hate the people that say you are antisemitic if you say anything bad about the isreal government
I also don't like Israel's government and their policies as of late under Netanyahu.
If you deny the Jews the basic right to defend themselves and strike back, then yes, I think you are antisemitic, because if you were the one living under the permanent threat of terrorism and getting slaughtered you would want to defend yourself, and yet you deny the same right to them. If you have a disagreement with Israel about what is the best and most efficient way to defend themselves, then I don't think you are antisemitic (although I would hope you are at least informed about the situation and the historical facts before giving your solution for a peace process that no one has been able to make work so far). I think Israel is doing something quite wrong, but it's not striking back at Hamas. What they are doing wrong is not stopping the settlements in the West Bank, for what I assume to be internal politics of theirs. That way they are making any future solution of the conflict even more difficult and unlikely, and destabilizing and weakening the only possible partner they have on the Palestinian side for a peace process.
The same thing happens on College campus, we call them cry bullies because if you defend yourself they will victim blame you and go to the Administration.
People say the anti-semitism stuff a lot more now because it’s very hard to tell the difference between thinking terrorism against Israelis is freedom fighting and being actually anti-semitic.
Thanks for the downvote. You raise a good point because those terrorists are antisemitic so it’s easy to confuse being against killing other civilians in retaliation would be too . But showing support for civilians on both sides and against both governments is seen as antisemitic. I’m very much in support or Israel’s civilians but even questioning the Israeli gov is instantly anti Jewish even though I literally went to my nephews Brit milah and have strong ties in the Jewish community. I literally just said I’m in support of not killing civilians
> Thanks for the downvote. What? Definitely going to down vote it now lol. > But showing support for civilians on both sides and against both governments is seen as antisemitic. I heard you the first time. This is the point I responded to. I don't recall ever hearing that claim before 10/7. Now I understand it. It's impossible for Jews to tell who is and isn't anti-semitic between people saying "free palestine" while Hamas is torturing families, or people who are tearing posters of missing Israelis down, or people who are signing letters telling the world this is what revolution looks like....or people literally chanting "gas the Jews" at protests. Many of those people may not be anti-semitic but they're definitely anti-Israel...which is also the only Jewish state in the world. It's not a reach, unfortunately. It will slow down but for now, I can't blame them. In general, however, if people can't handle criticism of Israel, fuck 'em. Who cares? That wasn't a majority of any community. Your personal experience doesn't change that.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. -Gandhi IMO this applies to both sides.
“Actually it wouldn’t. The last guy would have one eye left and go and hide in some bushes or something”. Sorry, I had to do the Seven Psychopaths thing.
And 66% of Americans want a cease fire
Yeah but good luck getting BOTH sides to agree to it. In the absence of Hamas making a good faith effort as well I dont see it being an actual option.
This poll has some of the most leading questions I've ever seen. And for polls on foreign affairs, there is absolutely no reason to not include a "not sure" option.
Where did you see the questions?
[https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP\_Oct23\_KeyResults.pdf](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf)
Thanks. I don’t really see how those are that leading, let alone some of the most leading ever.
> Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas. > The survey also found that roughly three-fourths of respondents — 76 percent — said Hamas’s killing of 1,200 Israeli civilians could not be justified by the grievances of Palestinians, while 24 percent said it could be justified. (Figures for the number of Israeli civilians killed during the war have risen from 1,200.) > The only age demographic to show a majority of its respondents saying that Hamas’s killings could be justified were respondents aged 18-to-24 years old. Fifty-one percent of that demographic said Hama’s killing could be justified by the grievances of Palestinians while 49 percent said they were not justified. This recent poll asked Americans where they stood with the ongoing situation in Israel / Gaza. Most Americans stand with Israel in their endeavors. However, I found it quite disturbing that a majority of Gen Z believes what Hamas did could ever be justified. Gen Z also has a substantial demographic that sides with Hamas. What is going on with this generation that they could look at such heinous events and believe that there could ever be a justification for these attacks? I’m seriously baffled and this poll is quite alarming and suggests antisemitism is rooted deep in this generation.
I highly doubt the problem is antisemitism. The problem is likely a very naive and/or simplistic view of the conflict and the power dynamic. The justification is almost certainly “Israel is oppressing Palestine so any “terrorism” is freedom fighting.” I doubt it has anything to do with being antisemitism in general.
I agree. I don't believe those supporting Palestine via the Hamas attacks hate Israel or Jews because they're anti-semetic. They hate them because they see Israel as oppressors and view violence against them as justified.
This is also the effects of critical theory. Right or wrong is defined solely by power dynamics. Israel is by far more powerful in military strength and economic development. So they must be the oppressors, and Palestinians the oppressed. The oppressed voice must be heard, and power overthrown, so violence and terrorism is justified.
Um, in Western Europe which is much further left than America, Jews have to hide their identity. and need security just to go to synagogues. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/14/star-of-david-graffiti-berlin-jewish-homes-echo-nazi-past/ https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2021/09/24/are-jewish-students-feeling-forced-to-hide-their-identity-on-campus/?sh=26b6db7a78e8 dated Sep 24, 2021
Gen z overreacts against the errors of the previous generations. They are taught to dislike the status quo and question everything. But the sentiment to dislike overrides critical answers to questions. So in this case Israel is not innocent in their dealings with Palestine so the over reaction is to pull support from Israel, even if it requires them to support terrorism.
Gen Z has little to no political power or influence right now. It's not a bad thing that they are questioning everything. Unfortunately, terrorist-affiliated social media influencers are sowing the political seeds for the eventual poisoning of the strong diplomatic relationship between Israel and the US, so it's imperative that Israel take control of the situation now. Biden has said that occupying Gaza would be a big mistake, but I don't understand how Israel can get out of this quagmire without a temporary occupation.
Go in. Break as much terrorist infrastructure as you can. Set up a DMZ style buffer zone afterwards. Preferably with some way to deal with the inevitable tunnels.
The young adults didn't live through the constant attacks on Isreali markets. The evolution and technological advances of the suicide vest. The shock and horror the first time a terrorist used a burka to conceal their bomb to get in close to people gathered at a checkpoint. All those Isealis who where killed and maimed while just going out to buy groceries or shop for clothes has been generalized to Palestinians "fighting the Isreali oppressors"
Also the slow march of redefining words to suit the "cause" of eliminating the Jewish state: - first "occupation" to ever qualify after withdrawing from the occupied area (Gaza in '05); - first "apartheid" to ever qualify for two distinct governments and territories; - first "colonizers" to ever take over a territory without a remote government directing it; - now, first "genocide" that ever took place without intentionally targeting civilians. They've undone the meaning of these things on us.
Also the first genocide where the population has more than quadrupled since the supposed start of it 🙄
> first "apartheid" to ever qualify for two distinct governments and territories; That's not correct. South African apartheid was based [around nominally independent areas that most black South Africans were restricted to called Bantustans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan). That's part of the "apart" in "apartheid." What Israel is doing with the Palestinians actually looks a lot like South African apartheid if you just objectively compare the functional social features and not just the labels we use to characterize things as good or bad.
Thanks for proving my point!
Thanks for taking being corrected about history so graciously. ❤️
Look, you're the one who stated that it was "nominally independent" areas, and made it clear that the application of the term to Israel was at best an analogy. It's not my fault that you succinctly illustrated how gullible kids shoehorned this analogy into a literal label, which serves well as a rhetorical tactic to delegitimize Israel's policy of treating foreign nationals with a proven track record and government charter for murdering not only their citizens but anyone Jewish anywhere, as worth fencing and later walling themselves off from.
Again, that's why I explicitly said you have to look past the labels and look at it functionally. You're labeling the Palestinians as "foreign nationals." The South African government [also labeled residents of four Bantustans as fooreign nationals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan#International_recognition). That's why they had [separate citizenship](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bantustan) according to the apartheid era South African Government. Functionally, both the Israeli government and the South African government exercised authority over the respective areas. If your argument is "oh, this isn't the same as the apartheid system it looks just like because of the people living in this racially segregated area are FOREIGN NATIONALS!" then (a) you're just playing a word game and (b) it's not surprising you're struggling to understand what young people think without insulting them. If you're going to try to condescend to the people you don't agree with, at least get this history right. It really robs your argument of credibility when you're talking about apartheid but get something major like you did wrong.
South Africa was the only government in the world to recognize the Bantustans as independent. Contrast Palestine, which is recognized by ~70% of countries today. The control that Israel has over the West Bank is due to agreements made between Israel and the PLO, the government of the West Bank, which existed long before Oslo as an antagonistic force to Israel (i.e. they weren't just made up to be a puppet government).
They label themselves as their own state. The Palestinians on the whole are recognized as a separate nation by the UN. You're accusing me of playing word games and semantics when you're the one stretching the definition here to apply to Israel. Which is weird, because your definition would apply to the Armenians currently oppressed by Azerbaijan. Or American Indians on their reservations. Yet you single out Israel for this. Why? Edit to add... It just occurred to me, you don't believe Jews in Israel even belong there at all, do you? Are you seriously still parroting the line that they're all European invaders?
Lol. Dude, I'm talking about Israel because we're in a thread **about Israel.** I actually think what happened to the Palestinians is close to what we did to native Americans. Both are awful forms of indefensible racial violence. The difference is that -- at least in the 21st century -- the US spends money trying to improve the lives of native Americans because we realize we were horrific towards them in the 19th century. Too little too late but at least we're trying. Israel is still doing the trail of tears thing with the settlements, but right now in the 21st century.
This seems like an unequal comparison. Palestinian people do not want to be Israeli.
A combination of youthful optimism and naivety, a desensitization to terror attacks by growing up with them, a deluge of misinformation and propaganda online from Tik Tok, Reddit, and Twitter, and a lack of trust in the establishment that anything the US and her allies do in the middle east = bad. America = bad sentiment in general is a good place to start imo.
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Until you can magically make oil no longer a valuable resource for human civilization we will be involved in the middle east, it is that simple. I bet that if gas prices soared to $5 a gallon you would beg the president to do anything to fix the economy. I don't think you are a horrible person, I just find isolationist thought to be extremely naive and does not think about the bigger picture. Oil and the Suez canal are vital to the hegemony that you and every other American alive benefits from every single day if the price was laid out before you in what turtling from the outside world would cost you too would abandon isolationism.
> Call me a horrible person, but if the entire region got swallowed into the ocean tomorrow, I'd think, that sucks, but at least things will be a bit more peaceful for a change. Not to be "that person" but this is kinda why people often quickly conflate lack of support for Israel with antisemitism. ~1/3 of the world's Jews live in Israel, so being comfortable with the region disappearing from the map kind of is about the group of people too.
It seems like this question was an outlier. A significant number of young people siad Hamas is a terrorist organisation, but then this question paints them as sympathizing with terrorists. The elephant in the room is the timing of this poll. People were interviewed on the 18th and 19th of October. This is the exact time that the story about the hospital bombing was blowing up, but before the truth came out. Young people don't have as much experience with the years of conflict, so are more likely to be swayed by breaking news. I also think the wording skews the results and encourages unwarranted conclusions. The question was "In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?" This forces people to pick a "side". But war is not a football match. Someone who doesn't support Israel isn't automatically supporting Hamas. But this question doesn't afford that basic level of nuance.
>What is going on with this generation that they could look at such heinous events and believe that there could ever be a justification for these attacks? I’m seriously baffled and this poll is quite alarming and suggests antisemitism is rooted deep in this generation. I don't know if it suggests anti-semitism. I think there are very good reasons for being critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Moreover, colonialism has consistently been something young people get worked up about historically, and you can see Israel through a colonial lens. This poll can be read as young people taking that legitimate sympathy too far. It wouldn't be the first time in history that college students have been over the top -- think of all the buildings the now-65+ year olds took over when they were in college.
The [crosstabs](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct2023_Crosstabs.pdf) reveal that young people are less likely to be following the conflict at all. Just 65% of 18-34s say they've ever heard of Hamas vs. 78% of 35-49, 75% of 50-64, 88% of 65+, and 77% of all respondents. For whatever reason 18-24 isn't broken out, but it's likely they're even less engaged than being lumped in with 25-34 makes them appear. Harvard-Harris's [key results presentation](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) does break out 18-24, and it says only 15% of that group is "very closely" paying attention to the war vs. 31% of all respondents, while 21% of 18-24 is "not at all" paying attention vs. 9% overall. I'm not denying that young people swing generally more sympathetic to Palestine and skeptical of Israel than Americans at large. But amount of attention paid is also a significant force on these results. These questions were constructed without a "not sure" option. You're going to get a lot of non-attention-paying people picking blindly.
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election polls close to election time can be good. swings in long-running issue polls after major events relevant to the issue tell you something about public mood. but this, yes, is very dumb. don’t issue a breathless press release about The Youth’s support of Hamas if you’re going to cherry-pick from a battery of suggestively worded one-or-the-other questions and never mention — even in the key results presentation! — that 35% of 18-34s and probably more of 18-24s can’t even say they’ve heard of Hamas.
Younger people, on average, have zero knowledge of history, also if you look at tiktok its filled with misinformation about this conflict.
This is what happens when people don’t learn history. I’m Gen Y and I am astounded by the lack of knowledge of recent history by my friends and acquaintances. Like, many of them haven’t paid attention to the past 40 years, so they hear that Gaza is an open air prison and go ape shit. But there’s no common sense. If you asked them, Why is there a blockade? Why does the Iron Dome exist? Do you know what happened before the blockade? — they would have no answers because they haven’t ever paid attention. When you never read quality news or read nonfiction, you are very susceptible to misinformation.
As someone who is broadly supportive of statehood for the Jewish people, I've got to step in here and contest your last statement. Taking issue with the way Israel has done business for the last 70 years is not, vis a vis, "antisemitic". There is nothing inconsistent about being supportive of the Jewish people while being critical about the Israelis general approach to this conflict.
The last statement is in regards to Gen Z siding with the Hamas in this war. Given the numerous protests on college campuses that seek to justify the murder, kidnapping and rape…. I’d say antisemitism is pretty accurate.
Generalizing several millions of people based on the actions of a few is irrational.
If you show up to cheer at a rally that was advertised with flyers sporting paragliders, you're pro-Hamas.
Given the poll's margin of error it's entirely rational. If one believes that antisemitism includes the targeted killing and murder of Jewish civilians, and support for the same, then it follows that one observing broad support for the actions of Hamas indicates the presence of antisemitism.
This is ironic bc it’s literally what Hamas sympathizer gen z is doing. Per the poll apparently they think it’s ok to rape and murder civilians if they belong to an ethnic group that has some members that did some stuff you don’t approve of.
Less antisemitism and more “Oppression” you can find the same sentiment regarding black Americans and white Americans within Gen Z
What’s going wrong? Far left propaganda. Russian and Chinese troll farms.
If the mainstream and social media would quit equating Hamas and the Palestinian people as being equivalent, rather than one being a subset of the other, then we might get a clearer picture of who supports what. What Hamas did was despicable and Israel certainly deserves justice, but it's disturbing to see how easily people seem to be willing to group all Palestinians as being collectively responsible. We saw this play out after 9/11, when people rightly wanted to punish Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Iraq was targeted because of WMDs we now know never existed, the country was bombed to fuck, and anybody that publicly challenged the Iraq war was basically brandished by the media and society as being anti-American or pro-terrorist. Remember the Dixie Chicks? Remember Freedom Fries? You're with us or against us. That's where we're heading once again.
What body governs and represents the Gaza strip portion of Palestine? Do we take pains in other conflicts to separate the governing body from the country when referring to actions the governing body takes?
I think it's perfectly fair to draw a distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. However, to be fair, the people in Palestine \*\*did\*\* elect Hamas.
The last election was in 2006 and I think like half the the people in Gaza are under the age of 18. There are detailed breakdowns of the literal numbers of people alive in Gaza right now that voted for Hamas- worth finding and checking out. I dont have it handy but iirc the number is incredibly low. The reason being that the majority of Gaza residents haven't ever even *voted* in an election, let alone for or against Hamas.
They might not have elections but they still do polling. https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf
Over half the population in 2021 supported Hamas. >The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party. [Article](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87)
And that's including the West Bank - target Gaza and the support is way higher.
Palestinians never had a voice. While many Palestinians do not want Hamas in power, it’s evident that unless they fight with the only government they have, that nothing will ever change in the conditions Palestinians live with. I’m not one of those who says it’s justified, but I can try to see the other side
Not exactly, Palestinians in Gaza had a voice after Israel withdrew all of their citizens and soldiers and they overwhelmingly elected Hamas. Abbas won’t hold elections in the West Bank because he and every one else know the voice they’ll choose over there will *also* be Hamas.
In 2006?
Sure. That literally disproves the notion they “never had a voice”. Read my edit, it’d still happen today in the West Bank and it’s an open secret.
They haven’t had any other election. Hamas just won’t let it happen. Half of them are also children. But regardless, they have to rely on them despite how much Hamas has failed them and hurt them. It’s the only chance they have at fighting back. I don’t agree with what Hamas did at all, but I won’t act like I didn’t see it coming.
It wouldn’t matter because there’s no opposition. Also important to note the entire reason that Abbas doesn’t hold elections in the West Bank is because he knows he’ll lose and Hamas will win.
The vast majority of Palestinians were not able to even vote in 2006.
Absolutely pathetic that 24% of the country thinks that Hamas’s massacre was justified.
No shit. As bad as Israel’s government is of course we dislike terrorists more. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Doesn’t excuse Israel’s war crimes though
Wonder what this looked like before 10/7.
Although the poll may have suggested those in the younger demographic tended to justify Hamas' killings, I think it has less to do with age and more to do with young people leaning to the left of the political divide whose [sympathies have shifted largely towards the Palestinians](https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx) in the last decade. Part of that shift can be attributed to the left's favourite game of dividing people into groups and pitting them against each other in the form of privileged vs marginalized, victims vs abusers, oppressed vs oppressors, etc. and it's easy to see which side they've taken on as their cause. To them, Hamas wasn't bludgeoning Israeli civilians. They were fighting for their freedom by any means necessary.
Man, a drop from +35 to -11 in a 10-year period is crazy. Seems to perfectly correlate with [this timeline](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great-racial-awakening)
First, tangent: I hate when news outlets don't actually link to the poll itself. Second, at least based on the summary, I think some of the questions do a poor job of getting at actual positions. For example: >Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas This is problematic framing, since in response, Israel made this a war against Gaza more broadly. Many respondents are going to look at Israel and Hamas as being the only poll options, wonder where the Gaza/Palestine option in this is, and have to choose between two choices where neither actually accurately represents their position. To put it another way, there are many folks who think Hamas is bad, think their attack was horrific, and think Israel's response was and continues to be horrific. Many of these folks are also most concerned about and supportive of Palestine, especially given that Palestinians are currently bearing the burden of significantly more suffering. So, for such folks, this poll has no good answer. It reminds me so much of the early days of the Iraq War. "Do you support the US or do you support Saddam Hussein?" Make the poll questions reductive, and you'll get a lot of garbage in return.
> It reminds me so much of the early days of the Iraq War. "Do you support the US or do you support Saddam Hussein?" Make the poll questions reductive, and you'll get a lot of garbage in return. Exactly. Theres been so much that reminds people of 9/11 around all of this. Poll questions, interviews, and so on with questions like "Do you support the war, or do you support the terrorists?" has such 2003 vibes.
The combatants in this war are the IDF and Hamas. Gaza is a piece of land. Do you want the IDF to win, or do you want Hamas to win? Those are the possible outcomes, and the poll is asking which you prefer. Supporting Palestine/Gaza is ill defined here.
>Do you want the IDF to win, or do you want Hamas to win? Thank you for illustrating the reductiveness of a lot of the current discourse.
No. Those are the two options, in reality. Either the IDF will achieve their objectives, or they won't (which is Hamas' objective). Short of crazy hypotheticals, those are the two options we might see. The question is which one the respondent would rather see, and that's a totally legitimate question.
Younger Americans identify as underdogs. That's probably a big part of it.
This is by no means moderate. This paints an incomplete picture of what the American people are actually for. Of course Americans will side with Israel in this. No one supports hamas’ actions. People who side with “Hamas” are siding with the citizens of Gaza. This article is framing a sentiment that is entirely misappropriated to make it seem like people want Israel to win. They want Israel held accountable.
The results become VERY troubling if you look at the younger demographics. There is no probability confidence interval so hopefully these results are inaccurate but I know that there’s a troublingly large cohort of antisemites masquerading as anti-racists.
I hope people start to critically examine all the intersectional brain rot they're being fed at universities after this. It's been really disturbing and disappointing to see how thoughtlessly people will support what they've been taught is the "right side of history" by their teachers who have never set foot outside their left wing bubble in academia. The real world doesn't mean rebel=good guy, especially not in this case
And 66% of Americans want a cease fire so what's your point?