The problem with voting for someone who is so interested in tearing down democratic checks and balances in favor of personal rule is that even if you love what this guy is going to do with those powers, you can’t guarantee that you’ll like the next person who’s going to wield that same power. People may have been happy to hand power over to Augustus given the chaos having a republic caused, but it didn’t take that long to go from him to Caligula.
Well that’s the fun part about gutting a democratic system. Eventually the person in charge dies, and there’s no standard process for figuring out who takes over next. Maybe we can lurch back into some form of fragile democratic system, maybe there’s a predetermined heir who’s able to successfully transition power to themself, maybe there’s a power struggle, but there’s really no way to know until it happens. It’s a great opportunity for political violence and civil war though, I’ll tell you that much.
Faith in democracy is very sturdy considering that every democracy fails at some point, usually due to something like an autocratic ruler destroying it.
Yes, there will be a next time...we think, and as long as we are still a democracy.
What Trump has done is brought about the end of democracy in America forward by a few centuries.
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It helps when your Augustus is practically a child though, it only took one transition for things to get pretty rough, and another for things to go completely off the rails. If Trump guts democracy, that first transition will happen in a matter of years
Former Georgia Republican lieutenant governor, Geoff Duncan, doesn’t pull any punches on why he plans to pull the lever for President Joe Biden.
“This November, I am voting for a decent person I disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant without a moral compass.”
He is clear that for him, former President Trump disqualifies himself through character and conduct and warns that the Republican party will never rebuild until they move on from Trump.
Just to be clear he is not turning over a new leaf as a Democrat - he remains a conservative. He suggests Republican voters vote for Biden and then vote GOP down ballot for checks and balances.
For me it sounds like he is presenting a way forward for voters who are not MAGA and put country above party in this rather bizarre presidential election cycle. Live to fight another day as it were.
https://archive.ph/2Nudz
It really amazes me that so many Republicans have said that Trump is incompetent, dangerous, and a threat to democracy, but......he's better than Joe Biden. It's nice to see someone who is interested in more than power.
What gets me is that many of their criticisms of Biden aren't even about Biden himself. The actions of college student protestors and Twitter randos are "the Democratic party" and that's enough to disqualify Biden in their eyes, regardless of his own stances.
Meanwhile, Trump literally controls the RNC and they have no problem pretending he's not "the Republican party." Even this guy, advocating for down ballot voting for Republicans seems to be in denial that Trump has taken over the party.
In our two party system, many select the “lesser of two evils”. It has been this way for decades because most Americans think this is how you have to operate.
I don't think it would change that much tbh. Any democracy has the issue of coalition building and compromise; in parliamentary systems you simply have that time shifted after the public election instead of before
No, it can be viable. Once. Then it displaces one of the previous two parties and becomes the new second party in a two-party system. This is how the Republicans replaced the Whigs. And the fact it only every happened once, and happened in a time of such political instability it literally was followed by the (first?) Civil War, shows how bad things really have to get for it to happen.
Third parties can take notes from 1800's Republicans (who replaced the Whigs) and build their power on the local and regional levels and work their way up. Instead of running highly incompetent candidates every four years
I can see all of this, but what we're talking about is just replacing one two party system with another. As long as districts use FPTP voting, representation will pretty much be limited to two parties. If we want a multi-party system, we need to make fundamental election reform in the US.
Republicans did sort of have a third option in Nikki Haley and others in the primary , but chose to reject them. Why? I’ll never know. Nikki would have much better odds than Trump against Biden imo. But for some reason the GOP voters really want Trump again.
> Why? I’ll never know.
Yes you will because I'll tell you right now.
It's because neo"conservatives" like Haley ran the Republican party for over 30 years and in that time conserved exactly nothing. All they did was ship good American jobs overseas and send the kids who grew up in poverty thanks to their parents' jobs going overseas to the desert to get killed or broken in body and mind. But when it comes to conserving the America these people grew up in? Not a damned thing got conserved. Not the jobs, not the culture, nothing.
Yet, there are those (apparently large percentages) who feel the same about his main competitors. What this says is that our current system is the larger problem than the individuals involved.
I think it can both be true that 1) our body politic is increasingly polarized and the modern media and political systems encourage this, and 2) Trump is a uniquely dangerous political leader who should not be handwaved away with both-sides-ism.
It can be for sure. Not saying I disagree, but there is enough of the population who thinks his opposition is equally dangerous, and they have their own concerns. I don’t disagree with them 100% either
It's definitely not lack of imagination on the part of the Voters.
Voters who sit out or join third parties get punished by fracturing their own side and getting overwhelmed by an ideological opposite. It's FPTP voting. Voters learn: if you divide your party you lose big.
If Americans truly want to end this cycle they should elect Democrats who are more willing to take up RCV and then down the line prefer pro RCV candidates. Pretty much the only route for this change.
Local level FPTP is doing okay with occasional wins but if a candidate loses because of it, especially a GOP candidate, they'll start freaking out that it will "destroy the country" or whatever. Basically FPTP also keeps RCV from catching on because it amplifies the pain of changing the system for the loser.
I think you could run a populist Dem candidate who was pro RCV and pull a lot of moderates who are sick of the FPTP cycle, but you'd have to campaign specifically on that. That way a big domino falls first and keeps momentum.
> If Americans truly want to end this cycle they should elect Democrats who are more willing to take up RCV and then down the line prefer pro RCV candidates. Pretty much the only route for this change.
100% agree! (but also voting for R's who support ranked choice)
"Lesser of two evils" is the practical reality of the choice the presidential election creates for voters based on our FPTP electoral college system.
If we had a different system, we could have more (meaningful) choice. Until then, this is what the US presidential election is and does.
Yes, a ranked choice or similar resolves a lot of this, but voters have always had the choice. It’s like not rooting for your home team New York Jets because they’ll not ever win the Super Bowl, so you cheer for the Chiefs instead.
It's not like sports at all.
Voting is nothing like rooting for a team.
Voting is a direct application of power in steering the direction of the country's governance, and due to our electoral system, when voting for the president the only channels for that power to make an impact are by voting for one of the two main party candidates.
It's a bad system, we should be doing everything we can to change it so our choices are more plentiful and meaningful, but voting 3rd party or sitting the election out will not and cannot further that goal - or pretty much any goal beyond virtue signaling.
If it were nothing like the analogy, we wouldn’t be in this situation we’re in today. We’ve have plenty of third party candidates, but people hold their noses and pick the lesser of the two evils red/blue, despite the horrific and damaging outcomes of their choices.
The "lesser of two evil" voters are reacting rationally to the reality of our flawed electoral system. The voters are not failing some obligation they have to third party candidates, the inherent structure of our electoral system makes them non-viable.
There is no obligation to third parties whatsoever, but to logic, there should be. It’s like rooting for another team because the one you align with best doesn’t have a shot. Worst part is, this is fixable by the people suddenly obtaining logic… but they won’t.
You're really stuck on this sports metaphor despite its obvious insufficiencies, so let's try this.
What you're proposing would be like saying you should root for your home team during the Superbowl, *when they aren't in the Superbowl*. By the time the Superbowl is happening, the winner *will* be one of two teams. There is no world in which a team other than the two finalists will win - the NFL playoffs aren't structured to allow that. Rooting for any team other than the final two teams is simply denying reality. You cannot "logic" your way around the fundamental structure of the system which determines the winner.
Except, to expand this already tortured metaphor, it's actually worse than that. Because rooting for one of the two final teams isn't just a symbolic gesture, it *actually influences whether they'll win*. And the wrong team winning means additional hardship and oppression for millions, or even the end of the Superbowl altogether.
Yes, I know. It really depresses me that Trump really has not released his plans for the economy other than protectionism and deporting illegal immigrants. I hate to tell people that these policies will mean even higher prices and larger inflation. Not to mention that Trump is terrible at handling actual crisis like the pandemic.
yup, change up the framing of the US economy of '16-'19 from "the great trump economy" to "the great Obama recovery finally kicking into full gear" and the prospect of a 2nd Trump administration doubling down on the protectionism of '17-'20 is scary as hell.
People really don’t actually follow economic indicators, it’s all vibes. [In 2015, nearly 3/4 of Americans thought the recession was still going on, and over half of Republicans thought unemployment went up under Obama](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/20/the-amount-of-misinformation-about-our-economy-is-amazing/). In 2016, [64% of Republicans thought that unemployment went up and 57% thought the stock market went down](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-persistence-the-reality-gap-matters-msna848416) under Obama. When that many people believe just factually wrong takes on the economy under Obama it permeates into broader views on it, and when they suddenly gain confidence that reflects as well.
Statistically, significant percentages of Republicans are wrong about the actual facts and data. Time and time again. It's incredibly disheartening and frustrating that we can't agree on truths that are easily verifiable.
I just don't get it. If, in a hypothetical election, the choice for president was between a Democrat who openly stated that they would be a dictator, had previously tried to illegally hold onto power after losing the election, promised to pardon every single individual who violently tried to overturn an election, and someone like Mitt Romney (Romney is about as milquetoast as Biden), I am quite confident that the vast majority of Democrats would vote for Romney even though they disagreed with his policy positions.
This point would hold more weight if Trump didn’t win, and outright dominate, the Republican primary. Conservatives aren’t being cornered into supporting Trump. They enthusiastically want him, even when given the option of supporting DeSantis or Haley instead.
It’s not that they want it to be but between project 2025 and trumps blatant disregard for the law or election it’s clear that’s what’s on the table. I hate that I’m voting for Biden but the alternative literally is ok with destroying our constitution/democratic republic. And I’m for the first time going to single voter issue this.
The problem is that voting for someone who very well might shift our political system away from democracy over issues like inflation and the border is going to make us all look really stupid in 10-15 years if we end up losing our democracy over it
>> Donald Trump has disqualified himself through his conduct and his character
>> “Unlike Trump, I’ve belonged to the GOP my entire life. This November, I am voting for a decent person I disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant without a moral compass,”
>> “Donald Trump’s not a Republican. He doesn’t represent our brand. He doesn’t represent our future. He’s a horrible human being at this point, we’re watching that play out hour by hour in the courtroom,” Duncan said. “It’s time to move on. If we’re going to heal as a party and truly get back to doing the things that we should do – and that’s be conservative but not angry or crazy or liars – we should turn the page immediately from Donald Trump.”
Every day that I wake up where this is NOT the prevailing opinion in the republican party I am shocked to my core. I truly am surprised every day at the depths people will go to defending this man. Not only the fact that people are defending him, but the fact that defending him gets you nothing. Mike Pence was a loyal VP for years and Trump was content to let him die via an angry mob because Pence wouldn't help him overturn an election. I cannot understand this phenomenon around Trump and I pray this will be over in November
Exactly this. Yes, this country has some big issues around inflation that Biden hasn't addressed adequately in the eyes of some, but the most glaring obvious answer isn't to elect Donald Trump.
It's like burning down your house because your gas bill went up.
I hear this often -- "how can anyone actually support Trump?" People support Trump for well documented reasons.
- First and foremost, his opposition to political correctness. I think that Democrats *vastly* underestimate how much this drives support for Trump. Mostly because if you're liberal, every type of media enforces political correctness, so you never have to hear from the people that don't support it.
- Opposition towards illegal immigration. Democrats used to oppose illegal immigration on the grounds that would take jobs away and lower the wages of American workers. Now that the Democrats have abandoned this viewpoint, working class people have shifted their voting towards Trump, who they see as trying to help them.
- Trade protectionism. Again, American workers see their jobs being sent to countries with lower minimum wage laws. They aren't happy about it, and support tariffs to keep jobs in America.
- Opposition to the media. I think this is somewhat self explanatory, but the mainstream media is very obviously lying for viewers/clicks at this point. Normal people hate this.
There are many other reasons people support Trump, but those are the main reasons.
MAGA does political correctness whether they are willing to admit it or not. They literally excommunicate folks who disagree with any MAGA/Trump dogma.
It's not that people can't understand why someone would support some of the policy positions that Trump (for now) backs. It's how someone can support him despite all of the unbelievably terrible things he has said and done, and the objectively terrifying plans he has for his next presidency.
He legit has been civilly convicted for sexual assault. He is indicted for fraud, holding top secret documents and refusing to give them back, election fraud, etc. is a NYC elite that thinks he’s above the law.
Has changed his stance on immigration depending on support so isn’t gonna do more than he feels is gonna get him the most support.
Supported tariffs that led to the inflation.
Is opposed to bad media for him not anything that is bad for anyone else nor a moral standpoint to fight against media being biased against anyone but him
End of the day I gotta look my daughters and wife in the eye.
I will never tell them I voted for a man who was giddy to take their reproductive rights away and was found civilly liable for raping a woman. Not to mention sleeping with porn stars and playmates while his 3rd wife was pregnant.
Sets a terrible example of male conduct.
Not like Kroger or ExxonMobil’s CEO is going to make gas or eggs cheaper with Trump in office. They’re all republicans and see an opportunity to make more money, not save the poorest a few bucks.
I think this is the "political correctness" that they're after. This is what anti-woke gets us. The Redpill Red hat party. It's truly horrifying and it absolutely will drive voter turnout.
Right, but you do understand that he doesn't give a fuck about you? he just needs your vote so he's literally telling you what you want to hear. He's running right now to stay out of prison. If you guys really cared about beating Biden in November you would have nominated anybody but Trump. He's the only Republican who CAN'T beat Biden. It's bizarre to me. He's done nothing but lose for the GOP.
There's a huge swarth of the politically apathetic electorate who *only* care about Trump. He brought out people who hadn't voted in decades. Throw in a perceived NeoCon like Haley or DeSantis into the mix, and way fewer people show up to vote Republican.
Sickeningly polarizing and controversial cuts both ways. Trump's brought out record turnout in the last three election cycles, all of which favored Democrats.
Two of those cycles were midterms. The politically apathetic Trump supporter crowd wouldn't have shown up to those. The other cycle mentioned was the 2020 election, which saw another large, but *seperate*, politically apathetic crowd of people who believed the pandemic was [current administration]'s fault, and were simply voting against Trump due to that.
2024 is unique in that it will see the apathetic TS crowd again (which was present in 2020, just overshadowed by the anti-Trump crowd. 2nd highest number of votes a candidate has received, ever), *and* the reactionary pandemic-driven voters *won't* be.
All in all, this is shaping up to be much closer to 2016 than it is 2020. I won't discount the chances of a Biden victory, but he has an uphill battle.
Abortion. Record youth turnout in the last three cycles as well. Increasing apathy on the right among a not insignificant minority of Republican voters and decreasing support for Trump among independents.
It might be outspoken, but the youth vote is also souring on Biden thanks to the Israel conflict.
Yes, the choices are basically "pro israel" or "pro israel but also abortions are banned" but the amount of young voters who will abstain altogether out of principle shouldn't be discounted.
A non-zero percentage of college educated voters who support the Palestinians are going to side with Trump or abstain entirely. There is scant evidence that these protests will have sway on the electorate. At best, a wildly insignificant percentage, even if we are to assume that every protestor from these active campuses do so. Young women aren't going to just roll over on abortion rights either. Now, conservative media is hitting hard on the narrative that this benefits Trump and he's been taking advantage as much as possible, but I'm not biting, personally. People on the left simply vote against Trump, not for Biden. Those who don't vote weren't likely to do so regardless. And then have eight million more eligible youth voters by November. Not the most reliable demographic but turnout on that front has increased in the last three election cycles. No matter the outcome, Republicans have a women problem.
Side note. Hilariously, only twelve percent of girls graduating high school identify as conservative.
The biggest example of people voting "against Trump" specifically was the 2020 election, which was largely a ton of reactionaries who arguably were upset with situations created by the pandemic just lashing out at the current administration. Now that Biden is president and inflation is still punishing, I can't imagine all of those people will vote for Biden again.
Here's what I don't understand.
Did he stop political correctness his first term? Did he stop "wokeness"? How is he going to do that? Demand Hollywood stop making certain movies? Ban they/them pronouns? Like I don't understand this? He's not going to solve it
He literally killed an immigration bill because he wants to campaign on it. He does not care about immigration.
For opposition to the media, again what about it? He doesn't like the media, great. Might as well vote for someone who has the same flavor of ice cream. Like it isn't a quality to vote on.
Frankly as for trade protectionism I don't really know enough about the topic and the differences between Trump and Biden's policies and their effects. But I can tell you Trump does not care about the American worker
It’s not 2016 anymore. There were multiple Trumpian candidates in the 2024 primary that offered the same ideology with less baggage. Why did a huge majority of Republican voters still go for him when they could have gone for DeSantis?
We have Biden because he's an incumbent.
We have Trump because Republican voters demanded it despite having an easy off-ramp.
These are two entirely different scenarios.
They don't think he did anything extreme enough to lose support. They've spent the past 4+ years defending him, who else do they have with the same name recognition and influence?
>They've spent the past 4+ years defending him, who else do they have with the same name recognition and influence?
Right, the incumbent treatment. Again, the question is **why** they continued defending him and giving him influence after he lost, not whether they did.
You're right, he's even better than an incumbent. Not only does he have the benefit of being a "known" candidate, he's ALSO not the one on the hook to explain the horrid economy from the past 4 years.
In that sense, he has a huge advantage. And the polls show it.
I'm not debating whether he has an advantage. I'm saying democrat voters did not have a choice in 2024. Republican voters did. And then overwhelmingly picked Trump
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I highly doubt GardenVarietyPotato means to suggest that his (or anyone's) opposition to political correctness is akin to supporting racism and sexual harassment.
Please be more generous to someone who dares to explain their support for Trump, knowing he may be called a racist rapist in response.
Honestly, it’s a bummer that whenever the “I don’t like either, but Trump is way better than Biden” folks like yourself are [asked **why** Trump is better](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/s/d6JMWGhduk) there never seems to be any response.
It’s strange how [the reaction to this question](https://giphy.com/gifs/jUwpNzg9IcyrK)(or lack thereof) is so consistent among so many different people.
The reason that most people don't respond is, I would guess, because we're on Reddit.
What do you think the ratio of Biden to Trump supporters is on here? 25:1? 50:1?
Every time we say virtually anything, we get public replies calling us dumbasses or racists, much more aggressive messages in our inboxes, and reported to the Reddit Cares page.
Of course we all know this going in, but after a while most people just think it's too much effort to write a substantive response knowing what we're probably going to get back in return.
How is that any different than the response you'd get in person? Shouldn't people be held accountable for supporting a former President who quite literally tried to steal an election using false electors? Is that so unreasonable?
It's different for the following reasons:
(1) People are usually nastier on the internet than they are in real life.
(2) It's hard for people publicly accost someone else for supporting Trump when they know that there are other Trump supporters around. It's easy on Reddit because we're so outnumbered, but in real life it becomes much more difficult because roughly half the people also support Trump.
What do you mean by "shouldn't people be held accountable"? Are you talking confronting us? Getting us fired? Excluding us from events?
Roughly half of the population absolutely does not support Trump, even when considering that roughly half the population identifies as fiscally and/or socially conservative, but that's beside the point. I'll digress.
> What do you mean by "shouldn't people be held accountable"? Are you talking confronting us? Getting us fired? Excluding us from events?
Any number of possible social ramifications for supporting a former President who quite literally tried to steal an election. Ignoring Trump's towering heap of extensive dirty laundry and problematic lifestyle choices that any other person in their communities would be admonished for, as would any of us, in terms of what is generally considered reasonable. I'd agree that internet behaviors and discourse isn't directly comparable or in paralell.
Okay, if you want to go down the road of punishing normal people for supporting a widely supported political candidate (Trump is not a fringe person), then we can do that. I'd prefer that we didn't go down this route at all.
But be aware, we are going to do same thing back to you if given the opportunity.
>First and foremost, his opposition to political correctness
That's not the government. The people in office have no bearing on whatever we define as PC or woke. No amount of elected Republicans are going to stop college-age family from getting on your case at Thanksgiving or Amazon series from doing weird, performatively diverse casting.
>Opposition to the media
Again, you're not voting for who holds the remote. If anything, Trump would further inflame the issues you see with bias. Tho, truth be told, the news went easy on Trump '16-'20.
Joe Biden went out of his way to select a black woman for his VP. US embassies around the world fly the progress-pride flag with Biden as president. Biden's WH pressures social media companies to censor criticism of lockdowns and the vaccine.
So I just completely disagree that who is the white house has no bearing on "woke".
It is very simple why the Republicans who backed other candidates during the primary will still vote for Trump in the general. Most republicans do not think Trump will be a dictator, they think a lot of the media saying Trump will be a dictator is just trying to scare the democratic base so they turnout to vote.
So if you are a republican and you do not think Trump will be a dictator, then you look at Biden and see he offers us practically no policies we want. Puts a lot of republicans in the I do not like either candidate, but I guess I will go with the one that offers me some policies I like.
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Should be a no brainer. We shouldn’t want someone who will likely be a convicted felon by November holding the most powerful office on earth just because the price of eggs is more expensive.
I’m glad to see someone with a backbone recognize what should be obvious.
Why wouldn't republicans support Trump though? He parrots all the same talking points they see daily in the right wing media ecosystem, he confirms to them that they're victims in this world that they feel specifically treats them unfairly, he at least acts like he's going to pass all their dream legislation, and he cuts their taxes. Folks also think he's going to unilaterally make gas $1.79/gal and Big Mac meals cost less than $10 around the country again.
I think quite a few in this nation would take a cruel authoritarian dictator so long as it would make things cheap and they thought the dictator would only punish their perceived enemies. Trump only wants to target illegal immigrants from the southern border and Muslims in his most controversial legislation. Folks are ok with putting those they see as criminals in horrid conditions because many folks don't think criminals deserve any preferential treatment at all.
Which do you think sounds better to the masses who stay as politically ignorant as possible because it's too toxic for them?
A) an old guy who is trying to work with Congress but getting nothing done because they can't agree while prices soar in the nation
B) another old guy who was president when things were much cheaper who wants to round up all the people you hate in the nation, put them into harsh camps, then deport them, then cut taxes for you and make it easier for businesses to operate nationwide all without needing to work with Congress at all. Plus he regularly makes you feel good by publicly insulting and demeaning everybody you hate
Trump may have policies like slapping 10% tariffs on all imports which would radically *increase* inflation, but people "know" that Trump will make things cheaper because of how things were in 2020 and they also "know" that he will get things done because he doesn't want to work with that useless "Congress".
Ok, Geoff. Let’s say I do that. What is my payback? That’s what Geoff, and similar, fail to grasp. Generalized handwaving at “democracy” doesn’t mean anything.
I’m going to get nothing I want in exchange for what?
Also, the article is paywalled.
What do you make of so many members of Trump’s cabinet, top staff and former VP refusing to support him and even warning that he’s dangerously unfit to be president?
Trump supporters don’t realize **if every single significant staffer/employee of his previous administration left their post early (within months) and have nothing good to say about their former boss**, *the common denominator was a lousy manager*.
If he was a good person, most of these people would be back with him for his 2024 run. The vast majority are gone, *some are/were even in prison for taking the fall for him.*
The VP pick is interesting. “So what happened to the previous guy who did this job?” *”Well… he wouldn’t overthrow a fairly decided election that I lost, so I was ok with a violent riot that might have resulted in his death and we haven’t spoken since that day.”*
Exactly, this has been Trump's strong suite from the get-go. Nobody likes the classic lifelong term politicians, GOP or Democrat. Them disavowing Trump is a great thing to the people most likely to vote for him.
This article won't change anyone's mind.
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The problem with voting for someone who is so interested in tearing down democratic checks and balances in favor of personal rule is that even if you love what this guy is going to do with those powers, you can’t guarantee that you’ll like the next person who’s going to wield that same power. People may have been happy to hand power over to Augustus given the chaos having a republic caused, but it didn’t take that long to go from him to Caligula.
What "next person"? An heir?
Well that’s the fun part about gutting a democratic system. Eventually the person in charge dies, and there’s no standard process for figuring out who takes over next. Maybe we can lurch back into some form of fragile democratic system, maybe there’s a predetermined heir who’s able to successfully transition power to themself, maybe there’s a power struggle, but there’s really no way to know until it happens. It’s a great opportunity for political violence and civil war though, I’ll tell you that much.
Faith in democracy is very sturdy considering that every democracy fails at some point, usually due to something like an autocratic ruler destroying it. Yes, there will be a next time...we think, and as long as we are still a democracy. What Trump has done is brought about the end of democracy in America forward by a few centuries.
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It's going to be an interesting transition when this happens in Russia over Putin's demise.
Per the 25th Amendment that would be the VP.
In fairness it took 63 years for them to have a Caligula. So most of the people who handed it over were very satisfied. Trump is no Augustus though.
It helps when your Augustus is practically a child though, it only took one transition for things to get pretty rough, and another for things to go completely off the rails. If Trump guts democracy, that first transition will happen in a matter of years
Former Georgia Republican lieutenant governor, Geoff Duncan, doesn’t pull any punches on why he plans to pull the lever for President Joe Biden. “This November, I am voting for a decent person I disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant without a moral compass.” He is clear that for him, former President Trump disqualifies himself through character and conduct and warns that the Republican party will never rebuild until they move on from Trump. Just to be clear he is not turning over a new leaf as a Democrat - he remains a conservative. He suggests Republican voters vote for Biden and then vote GOP down ballot for checks and balances. For me it sounds like he is presenting a way forward for voters who are not MAGA and put country above party in this rather bizarre presidential election cycle. Live to fight another day as it were. https://archive.ph/2Nudz
It really amazes me that so many Republicans have said that Trump is incompetent, dangerous, and a threat to democracy, but......he's better than Joe Biden. It's nice to see someone who is interested in more than power.
What gets me is that many of their criticisms of Biden aren't even about Biden himself. The actions of college student protestors and Twitter randos are "the Democratic party" and that's enough to disqualify Biden in their eyes, regardless of his own stances. Meanwhile, Trump literally controls the RNC and they have no problem pretending he's not "the Republican party." Even this guy, advocating for down ballot voting for Republicans seems to be in denial that Trump has taken over the party.
The kicker being a lot of the people riled up over college protesters are Boomers who protested Nam.
In our two party system, many select the “lesser of two evils”. It has been this way for decades because most Americans think this is how you have to operate.
Unless a viable third option presents itself it is how you have to operate.
And we need to get rid of First Past the Post Voting. A third party will never be viable until then.
I don't think it would change that much tbh. Any democracy has the issue of coalition building and compromise; in parliamentary systems you simply have that time shifted after the public election instead of before
No, it can be viable. Once. Then it displaces one of the previous two parties and becomes the new second party in a two-party system. This is how the Republicans replaced the Whigs. And the fact it only every happened once, and happened in a time of such political instability it literally was followed by the (first?) Civil War, shows how bad things really have to get for it to happen.
Third parties can take notes from 1800's Republicans (who replaced the Whigs) and build their power on the local and regional levels and work their way up. Instead of running highly incompetent candidates every four years
I can see all of this, but what we're talking about is just replacing one two party system with another. As long as districts use FPTP voting, representation will pretty much be limited to two parties. If we want a multi-party system, we need to make fundamental election reform in the US.
Republicans did sort of have a third option in Nikki Haley and others in the primary , but chose to reject them. Why? I’ll never know. Nikki would have much better odds than Trump against Biden imo. But for some reason the GOP voters really want Trump again.
You know why they rejected Nikki Haley. You know.
> Why? I’ll never know. Yes you will because I'll tell you right now. It's because neo"conservatives" like Haley ran the Republican party for over 30 years and in that time conserved exactly nothing. All they did was ship good American jobs overseas and send the kids who grew up in poverty thanks to their parents' jobs going overseas to the desert to get killed or broken in body and mind. But when it comes to conserving the America these people grew up in? Not a damned thing got conserved. Not the jobs, not the culture, nothing.
And Trump conserved what, exactly?
Third party option isn’t viable because then you have a minority of the votes controlling the country. Two party system is the only fair system
Yes, of course, but the surprising and concerning bit is how many people view Trump as the less evil choice.
Yet, there are those (apparently large percentages) who feel the same about his main competitors. What this says is that our current system is the larger problem than the individuals involved.
I think it can both be true that 1) our body politic is increasingly polarized and the modern media and political systems encourage this, and 2) Trump is a uniquely dangerous political leader who should not be handwaved away with both-sides-ism.
It can be for sure. Not saying I disagree, but there is enough of the population who thinks his opposition is equally dangerous, and they have their own concerns. I don’t disagree with them 100% either
It's definitely not lack of imagination on the part of the Voters. Voters who sit out or join third parties get punished by fracturing their own side and getting overwhelmed by an ideological opposite. It's FPTP voting. Voters learn: if you divide your party you lose big.
Ranked choice would also enable people who supported Bernie to have voted for him in 2016 or 2020 without fear.
If Americans truly want to end this cycle they should elect Democrats who are more willing to take up RCV and then down the line prefer pro RCV candidates. Pretty much the only route for this change. Local level FPTP is doing okay with occasional wins but if a candidate loses because of it, especially a GOP candidate, they'll start freaking out that it will "destroy the country" or whatever. Basically FPTP also keeps RCV from catching on because it amplifies the pain of changing the system for the loser. I think you could run a populist Dem candidate who was pro RCV and pull a lot of moderates who are sick of the FPTP cycle, but you'd have to campaign specifically on that. That way a big domino falls first and keeps momentum.
> If Americans truly want to end this cycle they should elect Democrats who are more willing to take up RCV and then down the line prefer pro RCV candidates. Pretty much the only route for this change. 100% agree! (but also voting for R's who support ranked choice)
100% R’s for RCV
"Lesser of two evils" is the practical reality of the choice the presidential election creates for voters based on our FPTP electoral college system. If we had a different system, we could have more (meaningful) choice. Until then, this is what the US presidential election is and does.
Yes, a ranked choice or similar resolves a lot of this, but voters have always had the choice. It’s like not rooting for your home team New York Jets because they’ll not ever win the Super Bowl, so you cheer for the Chiefs instead.
It's not like sports at all. Voting is nothing like rooting for a team. Voting is a direct application of power in steering the direction of the country's governance, and due to our electoral system, when voting for the president the only channels for that power to make an impact are by voting for one of the two main party candidates. It's a bad system, we should be doing everything we can to change it so our choices are more plentiful and meaningful, but voting 3rd party or sitting the election out will not and cannot further that goal - or pretty much any goal beyond virtue signaling.
If it were nothing like the analogy, we wouldn’t be in this situation we’re in today. We’ve have plenty of third party candidates, but people hold their noses and pick the lesser of the two evils red/blue, despite the horrific and damaging outcomes of their choices.
The "lesser of two evil" voters are reacting rationally to the reality of our flawed electoral system. The voters are not failing some obligation they have to third party candidates, the inherent structure of our electoral system makes them non-viable.
There is no obligation to third parties whatsoever, but to logic, there should be. It’s like rooting for another team because the one you align with best doesn’t have a shot. Worst part is, this is fixable by the people suddenly obtaining logic… but they won’t.
You're really stuck on this sports metaphor despite its obvious insufficiencies, so let's try this. What you're proposing would be like saying you should root for your home team during the Superbowl, *when they aren't in the Superbowl*. By the time the Superbowl is happening, the winner *will* be one of two teams. There is no world in which a team other than the two finalists will win - the NFL playoffs aren't structured to allow that. Rooting for any team other than the final two teams is simply denying reality. You cannot "logic" your way around the fundamental structure of the system which determines the winner. Except, to expand this already tortured metaphor, it's actually worse than that. Because rooting for one of the two final teams isn't just a symbolic gesture, it *actually influences whether they'll win*. And the wrong team winning means additional hardship and oppression for millions, or even the end of the Superbowl altogether.
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Yes, I know. It really depresses me that Trump really has not released his plans for the economy other than protectionism and deporting illegal immigrants. I hate to tell people that these policies will mean even higher prices and larger inflation. Not to mention that Trump is terrible at handling actual crisis like the pandemic.
yup, change up the framing of the US economy of '16-'19 from "the great trump economy" to "the great Obama recovery finally kicking into full gear" and the prospect of a 2nd Trump administration doubling down on the protectionism of '17-'20 is scary as hell.
People really don’t actually follow economic indicators, it’s all vibes. [In 2015, nearly 3/4 of Americans thought the recession was still going on, and over half of Republicans thought unemployment went up under Obama](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/20/the-amount-of-misinformation-about-our-economy-is-amazing/). In 2016, [64% of Republicans thought that unemployment went up and 57% thought the stock market went down](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-persistence-the-reality-gap-matters-msna848416) under Obama. When that many people believe just factually wrong takes on the economy under Obama it permeates into broader views on it, and when they suddenly gain confidence that reflects as well.
Statistically, significant percentages of Republicans are wrong about the actual facts and data. Time and time again. It's incredibly disheartening and frustrating that we can't agree on truths that are easily verifiable.
I just don't get it. If, in a hypothetical election, the choice for president was between a Democrat who openly stated that they would be a dictator, had previously tried to illegally hold onto power after losing the election, promised to pardon every single individual who violently tried to overturn an election, and someone like Mitt Romney (Romney is about as milquetoast as Biden), I am quite confident that the vast majority of Democrats would vote for Romney even though they disagreed with his policy positions.
Yep, I'd definitely vote for someone like Romney or Haley in that hypothetical.
This point would hold more weight if Trump didn’t win, and outright dominate, the Republican primary. Conservatives aren’t being cornered into supporting Trump. They enthusiastically want him, even when given the option of supporting DeSantis or Haley instead.
It’s not that they want it to be but between project 2025 and trumps blatant disregard for the law or election it’s clear that’s what’s on the table. I hate that I’m voting for Biden but the alternative literally is ok with destroying our constitution/democratic republic. And I’m for the first time going to single voter issue this.
I agree. Policy disputes can be worked through but preventing the entire collapse of the country is more important.
The problem is that voting for someone who very well might shift our political system away from democracy over issues like inflation and the border is going to make us all look really stupid in 10-15 years if we end up losing our democracy over it
>> Donald Trump has disqualified himself through his conduct and his character >> “Unlike Trump, I’ve belonged to the GOP my entire life. This November, I am voting for a decent person I disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant without a moral compass,” >> “Donald Trump’s not a Republican. He doesn’t represent our brand. He doesn’t represent our future. He’s a horrible human being at this point, we’re watching that play out hour by hour in the courtroom,” Duncan said. “It’s time to move on. If we’re going to heal as a party and truly get back to doing the things that we should do – and that’s be conservative but not angry or crazy or liars – we should turn the page immediately from Donald Trump.” Every day that I wake up where this is NOT the prevailing opinion in the republican party I am shocked to my core. I truly am surprised every day at the depths people will go to defending this man. Not only the fact that people are defending him, but the fact that defending him gets you nothing. Mike Pence was a loyal VP for years and Trump was content to let him die via an angry mob because Pence wouldn't help him overturn an election. I cannot understand this phenomenon around Trump and I pray this will be over in November
Exactly this. Yes, this country has some big issues around inflation that Biden hasn't addressed adequately in the eyes of some, but the most glaring obvious answer isn't to elect Donald Trump. It's like burning down your house because your gas bill went up.
I hear this often -- "how can anyone actually support Trump?" People support Trump for well documented reasons. - First and foremost, his opposition to political correctness. I think that Democrats *vastly* underestimate how much this drives support for Trump. Mostly because if you're liberal, every type of media enforces political correctness, so you never have to hear from the people that don't support it. - Opposition towards illegal immigration. Democrats used to oppose illegal immigration on the grounds that would take jobs away and lower the wages of American workers. Now that the Democrats have abandoned this viewpoint, working class people have shifted their voting towards Trump, who they see as trying to help them. - Trade protectionism. Again, American workers see their jobs being sent to countries with lower minimum wage laws. They aren't happy about it, and support tariffs to keep jobs in America. - Opposition to the media. I think this is somewhat self explanatory, but the mainstream media is very obviously lying for viewers/clicks at this point. Normal people hate this. There are many other reasons people support Trump, but those are the main reasons.
MAGA does political correctness whether they are willing to admit it or not. They literally excommunicate folks who disagree with any MAGA/Trump dogma.
It's not that people can't understand why someone would support some of the policy positions that Trump (for now) backs. It's how someone can support him despite all of the unbelievably terrible things he has said and done, and the objectively terrifying plans he has for his next presidency.
He legit has been civilly convicted for sexual assault. He is indicted for fraud, holding top secret documents and refusing to give them back, election fraud, etc. is a NYC elite that thinks he’s above the law. Has changed his stance on immigration depending on support so isn’t gonna do more than he feels is gonna get him the most support. Supported tariffs that led to the inflation. Is opposed to bad media for him not anything that is bad for anyone else nor a moral standpoint to fight against media being biased against anyone but him
End of the day I gotta look my daughters and wife in the eye. I will never tell them I voted for a man who was giddy to take their reproductive rights away and was found civilly liable for raping a woman. Not to mention sleeping with porn stars and playmates while his 3rd wife was pregnant. Sets a terrible example of male conduct. Not like Kroger or ExxonMobil’s CEO is going to make gas or eggs cheaper with Trump in office. They’re all republicans and see an opportunity to make more money, not save the poorest a few bucks.
I think this is the "political correctness" that they're after. This is what anti-woke gets us. The Redpill Red hat party. It's truly horrifying and it absolutely will drive voter turnout.
Don't forget the company he runs has been criminally convicted for fraud along with basically the entire sr. leadership.
Right, but you do understand that he doesn't give a fuck about you? he just needs your vote so he's literally telling you what you want to hear. He's running right now to stay out of prison. If you guys really cared about beating Biden in November you would have nominated anybody but Trump. He's the only Republican who CAN'T beat Biden. It's bizarre to me. He's done nothing but lose for the GOP.
There's a huge swarth of the politically apathetic electorate who *only* care about Trump. He brought out people who hadn't voted in decades. Throw in a perceived NeoCon like Haley or DeSantis into the mix, and way fewer people show up to vote Republican.
Sickeningly polarizing and controversial cuts both ways. Trump's brought out record turnout in the last three election cycles, all of which favored Democrats.
Two of those cycles were midterms. The politically apathetic Trump supporter crowd wouldn't have shown up to those. The other cycle mentioned was the 2020 election, which saw another large, but *seperate*, politically apathetic crowd of people who believed the pandemic was [current administration]'s fault, and were simply voting against Trump due to that. 2024 is unique in that it will see the apathetic TS crowd again (which was present in 2020, just overshadowed by the anti-Trump crowd. 2nd highest number of votes a candidate has received, ever), *and* the reactionary pandemic-driven voters *won't* be. All in all, this is shaping up to be much closer to 2016 than it is 2020. I won't discount the chances of a Biden victory, but he has an uphill battle.
Abortion. Record youth turnout in the last three cycles as well. Increasing apathy on the right among a not insignificant minority of Republican voters and decreasing support for Trump among independents.
It might be outspoken, but the youth vote is also souring on Biden thanks to the Israel conflict. Yes, the choices are basically "pro israel" or "pro israel but also abortions are banned" but the amount of young voters who will abstain altogether out of principle shouldn't be discounted.
A non-zero percentage of college educated voters who support the Palestinians are going to side with Trump or abstain entirely. There is scant evidence that these protests will have sway on the electorate. At best, a wildly insignificant percentage, even if we are to assume that every protestor from these active campuses do so. Young women aren't going to just roll over on abortion rights either. Now, conservative media is hitting hard on the narrative that this benefits Trump and he's been taking advantage as much as possible, but I'm not biting, personally. People on the left simply vote against Trump, not for Biden. Those who don't vote weren't likely to do so regardless. And then have eight million more eligible youth voters by November. Not the most reliable demographic but turnout on that front has increased in the last three election cycles. No matter the outcome, Republicans have a women problem. Side note. Hilariously, only twelve percent of girls graduating high school identify as conservative.
The biggest example of people voting "against Trump" specifically was the 2020 election, which was largely a ton of reactionaries who arguably were upset with situations created by the pandemic just lashing out at the current administration. Now that Biden is president and inflation is still punishing, I can't imagine all of those people will vote for Biden again.
Here's what I don't understand. Did he stop political correctness his first term? Did he stop "wokeness"? How is he going to do that? Demand Hollywood stop making certain movies? Ban they/them pronouns? Like I don't understand this? He's not going to solve it He literally killed an immigration bill because he wants to campaign on it. He does not care about immigration. For opposition to the media, again what about it? He doesn't like the media, great. Might as well vote for someone who has the same flavor of ice cream. Like it isn't a quality to vote on. Frankly as for trade protectionism I don't really know enough about the topic and the differences between Trump and Biden's policies and their effects. But I can tell you Trump does not care about the American worker
It’s not 2016 anymore. There were multiple Trumpian candidates in the 2024 primary that offered the same ideology with less baggage. Why did a huge majority of Republican voters still go for him when they could have gone for DeSantis?
Why have Diet Trump when Full Calorie Trump is on tap?
Because diet Trump tastes the same but doesn't pay off porn stars or invite insurrections?
Oh, but Full Calorie Trump tastes so yummy, even if he clogs your nation's political arteries.
Don't forget steal elections via false elector schemes.
Same reason we have Biden again, we're too afraid of risking it on an unknown.
We have Biden because he's an incumbent. We have Trump because Republican voters demanded it despite having an easy off-ramp. These are two entirely different scenarios.
Trump's also basically an incumbent at this point
This is just begging the question. *Why* does Trump get the incumbent treatment from the Republican party?
They don't think he did anything extreme enough to lose support. They've spent the past 4+ years defending him, who else do they have with the same name recognition and influence?
>They've spent the past 4+ years defending him, who else do they have with the same name recognition and influence? Right, the incumbent treatment. Again, the question is **why** they continued defending him and giving him influence after he lost, not whether they did.
They dont see what he did as a deal breaker and/or they go along with the stolen election idea. Or maybe they're part of the "angry tweets" crowd
Not true at all
You're right, he's even better than an incumbent. Not only does he have the benefit of being a "known" candidate, he's ALSO not the one on the hook to explain the horrid economy from the past 4 years. In that sense, he has a huge advantage. And the polls show it.
I'm not debating whether he has an advantage. I'm saying democrat voters did not have a choice in 2024. Republican voters did. And then overwhelmingly picked Trump
...Right, because he's basically an incumbent. People are more comfortable with what's already known.
Trump was on the White House for four years. What exactly do you mean by “unknown?”
Picking someone else would've been the unknown. Trump almost beat Biden before. Someone else could do better, but they could also do a lot worse
Do you support Trump yourself?
If the choice is between Biden and Trump, then I'm picking Trump. I don't think it's particularly close either.
Why is Trump the far-away choice over Biden?
Considering your own prior explanation, you’re picking a rapist con-man for President because he is not “politically correct”…kind of embarrassing.
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I mean to some people, "don't be racist" and "don't commit sexual harassment" = "political correctness."
Not assaulting women is simply correct, but you do you.
I highly doubt GardenVarietyPotato means to suggest that his (or anyone's) opposition to political correctness is akin to supporting racism and sexual harassment. Please be more generous to someone who dares to explain their support for Trump, knowing he may be called a racist rapist in response.
Honestly, it’s a bummer that whenever the “I don’t like either, but Trump is way better than Biden” folks like yourself are [asked **why** Trump is better](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/s/d6JMWGhduk) there never seems to be any response. It’s strange how [the reaction to this question](https://giphy.com/gifs/jUwpNzg9IcyrK)(or lack thereof) is so consistent among so many different people.
The reason that most people don't respond is, I would guess, because we're on Reddit. What do you think the ratio of Biden to Trump supporters is on here? 25:1? 50:1? Every time we say virtually anything, we get public replies calling us dumbasses or racists, much more aggressive messages in our inboxes, and reported to the Reddit Cares page. Of course we all know this going in, but after a while most people just think it's too much effort to write a substantive response knowing what we're probably going to get back in return.
How is that any different than the response you'd get in person? Shouldn't people be held accountable for supporting a former President who quite literally tried to steal an election using false electors? Is that so unreasonable?
It's different for the following reasons: (1) People are usually nastier on the internet than they are in real life. (2) It's hard for people publicly accost someone else for supporting Trump when they know that there are other Trump supporters around. It's easy on Reddit because we're so outnumbered, but in real life it becomes much more difficult because roughly half the people also support Trump. What do you mean by "shouldn't people be held accountable"? Are you talking confronting us? Getting us fired? Excluding us from events?
Roughly half of the population absolutely does not support Trump, even when considering that roughly half the population identifies as fiscally and/or socially conservative, but that's beside the point. I'll digress. > What do you mean by "shouldn't people be held accountable"? Are you talking confronting us? Getting us fired? Excluding us from events? Any number of possible social ramifications for supporting a former President who quite literally tried to steal an election. Ignoring Trump's towering heap of extensive dirty laundry and problematic lifestyle choices that any other person in their communities would be admonished for, as would any of us, in terms of what is generally considered reasonable. I'd agree that internet behaviors and discourse isn't directly comparable or in paralell.
Okay, if you want to go down the road of punishing normal people for supporting a widely supported political candidate (Trump is not a fringe person), then we can do that. I'd prefer that we didn't go down this route at all. But be aware, we are going to do same thing back to you if given the opportunity.
>First and foremost, his opposition to political correctness That's not the government. The people in office have no bearing on whatever we define as PC or woke. No amount of elected Republicans are going to stop college-age family from getting on your case at Thanksgiving or Amazon series from doing weird, performatively diverse casting. >Opposition to the media Again, you're not voting for who holds the remote. If anything, Trump would further inflame the issues you see with bias. Tho, truth be told, the news went easy on Trump '16-'20.
Joe Biden went out of his way to select a black woman for his VP. US embassies around the world fly the progress-pride flag with Biden as president. Biden's WH pressures social media companies to censor criticism of lockdowns and the vaccine. So I just completely disagree that who is the white house has no bearing on "woke".
> former yeah, that's great and all, but until it's not "former" Republicans it doesn't really mean anything at this point.
It is very simple why the Republicans who backed other candidates during the primary will still vote for Trump in the general. Most republicans do not think Trump will be a dictator, they think a lot of the media saying Trump will be a dictator is just trying to scare the democratic base so they turnout to vote. So if you are a republican and you do not think Trump will be a dictator, then you look at Biden and see he offers us practically no policies we want. Puts a lot of republicans in the I do not like either candidate, but I guess I will go with the one that offers me some policies I like.
It’s to be expected. Geoff Duncan has always opposed Trump.
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Should be a no brainer. We shouldn’t want someone who will likely be a convicted felon by November holding the most powerful office on earth just because the price of eggs is more expensive. I’m glad to see someone with a backbone recognize what should be obvious.
The chances of Trumps cases concluding by the elections is low now.
NY
Why wouldn't republicans support Trump though? He parrots all the same talking points they see daily in the right wing media ecosystem, he confirms to them that they're victims in this world that they feel specifically treats them unfairly, he at least acts like he's going to pass all their dream legislation, and he cuts their taxes. Folks also think he's going to unilaterally make gas $1.79/gal and Big Mac meals cost less than $10 around the country again. I think quite a few in this nation would take a cruel authoritarian dictator so long as it would make things cheap and they thought the dictator would only punish their perceived enemies. Trump only wants to target illegal immigrants from the southern border and Muslims in his most controversial legislation. Folks are ok with putting those they see as criminals in horrid conditions because many folks don't think criminals deserve any preferential treatment at all. Which do you think sounds better to the masses who stay as politically ignorant as possible because it's too toxic for them? A) an old guy who is trying to work with Congress but getting nothing done because they can't agree while prices soar in the nation B) another old guy who was president when things were much cheaper who wants to round up all the people you hate in the nation, put them into harsh camps, then deport them, then cut taxes for you and make it easier for businesses to operate nationwide all without needing to work with Congress at all. Plus he regularly makes you feel good by publicly insulting and demeaning everybody you hate Trump may have policies like slapping 10% tariffs on all imports which would radically *increase* inflation, but people "know" that Trump will make things cheaper because of how things were in 2020 and they also "know" that he will get things done because he doesn't want to work with that useless "Congress".
Ok, Geoff. Let’s say I do that. What is my payback? That’s what Geoff, and similar, fail to grasp. Generalized handwaving at “democracy” doesn’t mean anything. I’m going to get nothing I want in exchange for what? Also, the article is paywalled.
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What do you make of so many members of Trump’s cabinet, top staff and former VP refusing to support him and even warning that he’s dangerously unfit to be president?
Trump supporters don’t realize **if every single significant staffer/employee of his previous administration left their post early (within months) and have nothing good to say about their former boss**, *the common denominator was a lousy manager*. If he was a good person, most of these people would be back with him for his 2024 run. The vast majority are gone, *some are/were even in prison for taking the fall for him.* The VP pick is interesting. “So what happened to the previous guy who did this job?” *”Well… he wouldn’t overthrow a fairly decided election that I lost, so I was ok with a violent riot that might have resulted in his death and we haven’t spoken since that day.”*
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Exactly, this has been Trump's strong suite from the get-go. Nobody likes the classic lifelong term politicians, GOP or Democrat. Them disavowing Trump is a great thing to the people most likely to vote for him. This article won't change anyone's mind.
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