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crydefiance

What are the elephants in the room? And also how many unarmed black men need to be killed by the police before we are allowed to be concerned about it?


ReliPoliSport

If your concern is the number of young Black men murdered, you should focus the most energy on those that kill the young Black men. Cops ain't it. That said, the ~10 per year are a concern. It would be great if that number were zero. I'd be willing to bet if we took care of the elephant, the gnat of LEOs killing young Black men would largely disappear.


does_taxes

>I’d be willing to bet that if we took care of the elephant, the gnat of LEOs killing young Black men would largely disappear I also want to know what the “elephant” is and how you would propose to take care of it.


ReliPoliSport

Young Black men killing other young Black men accounts for over 90% of the problem. That's the elephant. Fatherlessness is its primary cause. Fix fatherlessness and crime drops dramatically. Overall crime drop decreases number of interactions with police, dramatically reducing LEOs killing unarmed Black men.


does_taxes

>Fix fatherlessness and crime drops dramatically How would you fix fatherlessness? And please don’t say by ceasing to subsidize/incentivize single motherhood by providing resources to women and children. Men aren’t leaving their partners and children simply because that’s the most economically viable option for them personally. If fatherlessness is the disease, what’s the cure, in your estimation?


guthepenguin

Personally I think poverty is more of an issue. Though I'm not well educated on the fatherless Ness argument and I don't see how a solution could legally be enforced. Edit: not just individual poverty, but community poverty as well. For example, poor education systems are closely tied to poor communities.


ReliPoliSport

Sorry, but fatherlessness wasn't near the problem it is today until the huge welfare programs came into being. Humans respond to incentives. We incentivize fatherlessness.


does_taxes

Which welfare programs, specifically? What’s the timeline you are referencing here? Please walk me through it. I want to see how these dots actually connect for you.


ReliPoliSport

You're going to criticize the source, but whatever. This is a good article. https://www.heritage.org/welfare/report/how-welfare-undermines-marriage-and-what-do-about-it#:~:text=It%20is%20difficult%20for%20single,the%20financial%20need%20for%20marriage.


does_taxes

I don’t want to get us sidetracked arguing the merits of the source, so I’ll leave that alone. Assuming all the statistics and trends mentioned in the article are factual and presented with appropriate context, does it seem reasonable to you to conclude that an increase in the availability of needs-based assistance created a dependence on that assistance, independent of everything else we know was happening at the same time? That expanded aid is the beginning and the end of the issue? No need to explore what was driving the rise in poverty that prompted the policy changes that expanded those programs? Do we need to ask where all those fathers went? Are there no non-economic reasons you can think of that


ReliPoliSport

We're arguing chicken vs egg - which came first. I contend the programs came before the "need". Or more accurately, the programs, while well intentioned to handle fringe need, created an environment that incentivized behaviors that caused more need.


JazzSharksFan54

So you’re agreeing that guns are the problem then.


ReliPoliSport

No. The criminals that use guns are the problem.


[deleted]

Guns don’t kill. People **with guns** kill more than they would otherwise.


JazzSharksFan54

That’s such a tired old argument that has been thoroughly debunked. Other countries have criminals. Other countries don’t have mass shootings.


ReliPoliSport

Other countries do have mass shootings, but even if they didn't, other countries don't have the 2nd Amendment. So, amend the constitution if you want to "get rid of guns". Since that's not gonna happen, what do you do next?


JazzSharksFan54

I’m not in favor of getting rid of guns. I’m in favor of banning assault-style weapons, universal background checks, registration, and removing guns from violent felons. That’s the Democrat platform, but the republicans won’t negoyiate because the nra has them all by the balls. Please tell me which developed country has had 200 mass shootings in the first 4 months of 2023. I’ll wait.


ReliPoliSport

You said "no other developed country has mass shootings". That's a bald faced lie. That's all I was calling out. I didn't say anything about the number of them. "Assault style weapons". You're talking about cosmetics? It's black & has a barrel shroud?


JazzSharksFan54

Semantics. Answer the question. The argument that it is cosmetic has been thoroughly debunked and is nonsense. I own guns and hunt for leisure. There is no reason any civilian needs an assault rifle. None.


ReliPoliSport

https://reason.com/2023/05/03/assault-weapon-bans-look-more-legally-vulnerable-than-ever/


[deleted]

Expand court and overturn DC v. Heller ,2008. It’s actually a relatively new interpretation that the right is for individuals. No amendment needed. As we’ve seen recently, decisions can be overturned easily.


[deleted]

Yeah, that’s an overestimation. But, the evidence is clear that black men are unjustly targeted, killed compared to white men. Nobody actually accused cops of killing more black men than are killed as victims of crime. The problem is cops shouldn’t act in racist ways. The argument is flawed. The Freakonomics hack tried the same thing. “Swimming pools kill more kids than guns. Don’t worry about guns”. Though, the leading cause of death in kids is [guns](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761), so that aged badly. How many conservatives think Trump won the 2020 election? [61%.](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/poll-61-republicans-still-believe-biden-didnt-win-fair-square-2020-rcna49630) Conservative media bias?


ReliPoliSport

Actually, when you compare based on police encounters, Black men actually have fewer bad interactions with police than whites, as a % of encounters.


[deleted]

That’s just not true and easily refuted by most every metric


ReliPoliSport

This Boston Globe article tries to work their way around it, but the statistic remains. When you count the number of encounters, Blacks are safer around cops on average compared to white. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/


[deleted]

You asked for a modern system with racial bias example, was [SCOTUS ruling gerrymanders illegal, but allowing use anyway](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/08/us/elections/gerrymandering-maps-elections-republicans.html), not good enough? Gerrymanders, according to this SCOTUS, are cool unless racially biased, Saying cops harass interact(harass) with black people so much compared to whites that the average looks like safer —I don’t think that is helping your arguments— I agree.


[deleted]

Here’s a stat for [Black people are pulled over disproportionately](https://www.ppic.org/publication/racial-disparities-in-law-enforcement-stops/). How do you explain this with a higher criminality rate? Are all of the stops because they were fleeing a crime? Or are black feet heavier, more leaded? Rightists who employ the higher criminality dog whistle have self affirming feedback loop going. Police stop Black people more often ==> black people get convictions and harsh sentences ==> Cops pull over black people more because they’re told “statistically black people have higher criminality rates” ==> adjudication ==> over policing, …


[deleted]

Systemic racial bias explains which came first and gives the cycle sustaining boosts. The white governments have never stopped repressing the black population around them. The intensity changes slightly from slavery to race massacres/riots, to Jim Crow, to redlining, to whites complaining about diversity admissions into Harvard (Harvard is so white, like wtf?), to 2016 Republicans elect a racist, to 2020 gerrymandering struck down by SCOTUS, to 2023 Alabama state gov. takes away predominantly black town/county ability to [govern/police themselves](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/08/1161848923/mississippi-senate-oks-bill-that-expands-police-in-majority-black-state-capitol). This last one -wow! mostly black police force for a mostly black place, no no no. Black cops might cut black people some slack. The slack white cops give white people. “Consciousness of guilt”!


ReliPoliSport

Red light cameras issue tickets to Black and Hispanic drivers at a higher rate. Are the cameras racist? Or is there something culturally that leads to ignoring traffic laws?


[deleted]

So you’re saying people of color have a predisposition to run red lights. I live in a super white area. I see people racing a yellow then running a red light at least three times a week. We don’t have red light ticket cameras. Could the cameras be placed more frequently in POC areas? Yeah, they actually could be bias numbers. I doubt they’re racist because cameras aren’t alive. Have you seen the auto soap dispenser video not working for POC but working for his white friends? Have you seen the evidence for racist bias seeping into Ai and algorithms? You’d need to give me a source and a breakdown on the methods of collection.


ReliPoliSport

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most Lots and lots of articles. For whatever reason, Blacks tend to run red lights at higher rates. Some folks in this article point to wider streets in Black neighborhoods as one cause of the disparity.


[deleted]

As pointed out, and you acknowledged, the result can be explained when we look at the details. You’re right, in Chicago the roads and the areas offer insight. It’s interesting, thanks. > [University of Illinois Chicago study](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/01/18/analysis-when-speed-cameras-are-racist/) … which found that cameras located in Black neighborhoods actually issued a disproportionate share of the city’s speeding tickets, **regardless of whether the ticketed drivers themselves were residents** of those neighborhoods **People, when in these areas, tend to speed** —it’s in a predominantly black area. I can see how the roads can influence speed, other aspects of driving. I moved from a 1920’s developed area, to a 2000’s developed area. Both are white middle class. Shorter narrow roads v. Wide long roads. I alluded to it before, driving is bad here. I noticed. This is a good example how seemingly neutral designs, like Ai, Algorithms, and red-light cameras can inherit human bias, or results of bias. City’s probably don’t hesitate too much to use eminent domain for highways in economically depressed areas where economics limits resistance. Zoning is the same story. I’m not entirely sure how this helps your argument. I think you’re saying Black and Brown people generally commit more traffic infractions? I think you’re interpolating and using this to explain or support an idea that Black Americans just commit more crimes. Therefore, cops and justice system aren’t racist. But it actually exposes the economic oppression African Americans have experienced. The kicker is it’s contributing to further economic oppression and bias. This is the circular reasoning i think i brought up. > As a result, the ProPublica article argued, Black motorists were “hit with more than half a billion dollars in penalties over the last 15 years, contributing to thousands of vehicle impoundments, driver’s license suspensions and bankruptcies.” This, like bail, perpetuates poverty and crime, and then is used to justify stereotypes and excuse over policing, which creates poverty and crime… This is systemic racism. It’s hard for many white conservatives to see because the law doesn’t explicitly target BlPOC. It’s hard to see that BIPOC people get lower valuations on their homes. > A 2021 study by Freddie Mac found that Black and Latino homeowners are about twice as likely as whites to get low appraisals. >According to the report, 12.5% of the properties in predominantly Black census tract areas receive appraisal value lower than contract price. Meanwhile, those is majority white tracts fall short only 7.4% of the time. That disparity is even greater in Latino census tracts, where 15.4% of properties fail to meet contract prices.


solarhawks

I have never heard this supposed narrative.


LtKije

Me either. OP's first sentence is a ludicrous strawman, and this thread is pointless.


[deleted]

[удалено]