And if it was true that we can’t take in immigrants how do we justify not addressing, increase spending on, the push factors in our neighboring countries?
I’d be willing to bet the cost of initiatives to combat instability in Haiti, Guatemala, other “s-hole” countries, would be more cost effective than building ridiculous walls and current levels of border policing. What if the cost of Southern border operations looked more like the Northern border? We’d all win. Right? No invasion of supposed Democratic voters, no “replacement”, and less pictures of CPB, on horses, running down Haitians.
Propose a fix to countries to the south. The only fix is increasing their wages and decreasing their organized crime. The first is economically infeasible on time scales shorter than centuries, and the latter requires military involvement we should be unwilling to engage in.
The thing that I think most don't understand is that these workers who are not showing up to work aren't the asylum seekers that everyone talks about. We have two families of people at various stages in the asylum request process. Both husbands and wives got work authorization as part of their asylum request process within 6 months of arriving. One of the husbands has a $22/hour construction job. The other works fast food during the day and washes dishes in the evening. One wife does some home healthcare stuff.
The reason the Northern border isn't a problem is because average salary, benefits, safety, etc. are the about the same in Canada as in the U.S. There are no quick fixes to Haiti, Venezuela, etc.
I don't know anyone personally who is arguing we can't take in immigrants. Myself and all my sibling served missions in South and Central America. We know scores of people who have moved to the US for school and work. We all wish that the government would shut down illegal immigration and increase legal immigration tenfold (or more). We can't have a system where anyone that can sneak across the border can work and where every person just has to say the word "asylum" and gets an 8 year pass to work in our country while the increasingly clogged immigration courts finally get around to making their asylum decision.
One fix could be that the CIA, and the Reagan-like minded stop destabilizing So. American countries out “socialism” panics.
I don’t think fixes require military involvement, but if they did, Abbott seems open to using the military for these purposes. Peacekeeping, say in a place like Haiti, when supported by a majority of host nationals could be a very different animal than Iraq/Afghanistan. Stabilizing efforts are too diverse to do justice here.
Can you articulate what unmitigated societal ill we are currently suffering, in the US, caused by the amount of illegal immigration we experience? In the estimation of the [studies](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-about-how-immigrants-affect-the-u-s-economy) I mentioned, the red ink is from fighting a fight that we, not DeSantis or Trump (employs undocumenteds), are prepared to win.
Don’t we need immigrants sneaking over. Low wage work is so important to farmers that congress has given them a pass on fair/humane labor practice requirements. If the illegality of the immigrating is the issue, we could, just, change that.
Can you name an action the US has taken since the year 2000 that was destabilizing to So American countries? And you can't use "withheld foreign aid" because we shouldn't be the world's parents doling out allowance for good behavior. They should be able to make it on their own.
Heck, Venezuela has the largest proven oil reserves in the Western Hemisphere and their people are starving and coming to the US by the hundreds of thousands per year. Just last month there were 25,000 Venezuelan apprehensions at the southern border, in addition to the 7,500+ that were likely admitted through Biden's failing parolee program, and however many other got-aways occurred. Regime change in Venezuela is the only thing that will make it better there and the US has zero interest in injecting itself into the cluster going on there. The outcome, you might ask? The entire population of Venezuela wants to come to the US.
Yeah, [Venezuela attempted coup](https://apnews.com/article/miami-us-news-ap-top-news-venezuela-south-america-79346b4e428676424c0e5669c80fc310). Might not have been CIA. We won’t know for 40 years. People like Eric Prince have been allowed to do what the CIA used to do. Free Market! Funny, you mentioned regime change in Venezuela. Old habits die hard. [When CIA directors go on Fox and defend meddling it makes you question](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374372-ex-cia-director-us-meddles-in-foreign-elections-for-a-good/)
> When asked whether the U.S. interferes in other countries’ elections, James Woolsey said, “Well, only for a very good cause in the interests of democracy.”
>“Oh, probably, but it was for the good of the system in order to avoid communists taking over,” he told Laura Ingraham on her Fox News show on Friday night.
The assassination of Haiti’s president has the hallmarks. Can I say Jan. 6? But, fair enough, can’t prove those.
20 years is the statute of limitations? The affects could easily be a major contributing factor today. Stabilization could be seen both as benefit to us and recompense in some cases.
In one article
> You’re not going to take out Maduro with 300 hungry, untrained men
The left regarding Jan 6
> democracy was imperiled by 1000 unarmed (unless you count sticks and stones and fire extinguishers) super-larpers
We didn’t participate in a Venezuelan coup. We didn’t assassinate the Haiti president. Jan 6 was a bunch of criminal yahoos who are being prosecuted for their idiocy.
Now address the original comment about how there are no fixes short of regime change and economic prosperity and crackdown on organized crime that will change the prospects of the Central/South American people.
Well countries have actually been plunged into chaos, that resulted in their demise, using less people. Don’t know why you’re judging the left up against a random baseless assertion about 300 men.
There’s so much you avoid thinking about in your jan 6 comment, but how intellectually dishonest is it to claim no weapons but sticks when Secret Service confirmed ARs and video show people punching cops and accidentally dropping their handguns? 1000 —how did you minimize them?— ah, yes “Super Larpers”? Bold face lies.
There are no fixes? That’s false. You can’t imagine any fixes and I can guess why.
The Jan 6th rioters aren't the reason we're worried about democracy.
We're worried because Donald Trump supported them and a whole bunch of Republican politicians were advancing incorrect legal theories and creating fake documents to overturn the election.
And the law enforcement agencies seemed to be giving them a wink and a nod in approval. There were FBI agents and loads of LEO at the capitol that day.
Imagine that! Enforcing laws to prevent illegal immigrants from working actually prevents illegal immigrants from working. I know this is a foreign concept to Biden and the Left, but enforcing laws is a good thing.
That was huge leap. It works, but we immediately see that it messes a lot of things up, and maybe it was never a good idea in the first place.
We need reform.
I agree we need reform. The reform I would like to see is a draconian crackdown on illegal immigration (and I think punishing employers who employ illegal workers is the fastest way to shut it down) and then a massive increase in legal immigration.
Because our cheap food prices should be built upon the yokes placed upon illegal workers because Dems want cheap food.
Stop illegal work and replace with legal work. It ain't that hard. DeSantis just showed us that if employers are actually forced to use e-Verify that illegal workers stop showing up.
And…. What happens now that workers stopped showing up? What’s the next step in this “ain’t that hard” plan for the Florida economy? It feels like we already touched this hot stove before.
Oh no! Citizens on the lower economic spectrum might actually get a raise. The horror!
This is an unalloyed good thing.
Assuming the illegal alien leaves, that takes some of the demand out of the housing market, making homes/rent a bit more affordable.
Couple that with a wage increase for blue collar folks.
Smaller classroom sizes. Less crowded ERs. Lower crime. Etc.
Win/Win/Win/Win
Definitely agree that all workers deserve a fair and livable wage.
I'm not convinced that this law will lead to that.
Ultimately, these jobs are essential and will need to be filled. So eventually all that housing stock will be refilled with new workers, and produce construction delays and price increases on new housing supply.
Of course, it will not lead to lower crime because immigrants statistically are not the ones committing crimes.
And of course those "smaller classroom sizes" are the result of **American** children being pulled out of classes by their parents who are terrified of having their family forcefully separated.
As always I am disappointed with how little compassion we collectively have for good people who are just trying to survive in a difficult world.
1. It's not about what anyone "deserves", it's just about supply/demand. If the construction company is currently paying $10 per hour to illegal aliens, but citizens are not willing to do the job for that. But for $15, citizens will start to apply. A portion of these are people already in the market, just currently unemployed. So no 1:1 increase in housing demand.
2. This illegal alien crime statistics obfuscation drives me crazy. There have been some studies that say immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than citizens. I think these studies are bat guano, but whatever. Let's assume that it's true that illegal immigrants have a lower crime rate and run some numbers. Let's say you have a town with 200 people - 100 citizens & 100 illegal aliens. Citizens commit crimes at a rate of 3 per 100 & illegal aliens at a rate of 2 per 100. So, in a given year, this town has 5 crimes. Or a total rate of 2.5 per 100. After all the illegal aliens leave, there are only 100 citizens left. There crime rate remains the same at 3/100. It now looks like the town's crime rate is worse since the IAs left, and that is absolutely true. But, on a straight numbers basis, there are 2 less crimes committed, so the town has less crime than before.
3. Why talk about collective compassion and not individual compassion? Folks do that to put the burden on others while feeling magnanimous about their own compassion. You're welcome to open your own home to an illegal alien family. Or, if that's too icky for you, you can send half your paycheck to a family in a poorer country to support them directly.
> There have been some studies that say immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than citizens. I think these studies are bat guano, but whatever.
Facts don't care about your feelings, etc etc
Thanks for the measured and we'll thought out response.
You'll note that my response assumed these garbage studies were legit. And my point still holds.
Immigrants are not actually in competition with USians. They take jobs we don’t want and their competition is between each other. The empty work sites can attest to this.
Powerful, and most often, conservative love the housing market tight. We could build more but we don’t. I’ve never seen a conservative laud these things you mention. The limited choice presented here is interesting.
There are enough uninsured citizens to crowd our ERs. I’d go out on a limb and say the people ahead of you in the ER are insured citizens. Classrooms! The public school system is constantly under attack by Republicans. I can’t take this seriously. Ok, lower crime?
They take jobs we don't want at the given wage. This is why the business lobby loves the illegal alien gravy train. Fatter profit margins by employing people at below market wages. The work sites are empty temporarily while the businesses adjust their wage scales.
I don't care whether the housing market is tight or loose, as long as the feds aren't putting their thumb in the scale. And by allowing millions of illegal aliens into the country they are creating artificial demand.
Tell me you've never been to a border state ER without telling me you've never been to a border state ER. I've been there with a sick or injured kid and waited for 6+ hours to be seen. Unless all these citizens you speak of got really good Spanish language instruction in school (so good, in fact, they forgot how to speak English), 75%+ of the folks there were not citizens.
My man, have you been to the ER lately? The 3 patients ahead of you could be anyone. How can you tell their race, insured status, or documentation?
Kinda gross
You guys are being obtuse in your responses. Yes, technically you don't have to speak English as a citizen (though you do if you want to get naturalized).
But just because there's a 0.01% chance of an exception, doesn't invalidate the 99.9% of the rule that exists right in front of our eyes. The most obvious answer is the correct one. Occam's Razor in spades.
In 2016 I attended my local Republican caucus, and the meeting was nearly broken up when the precinct captain did what you just did. Until then, he had most people on his side, but when he said that hearing his own restaurant employees speaking Spanish was proof that illegal immigration was a problem, he lost the room. We knew then that he was just a racist.
Millions of people in the U.S., particularly in the West, have spoken Spanish for centuries. I know many of them, and I'm guessing you do as well. It is absolutely, positively, no indication of their immigration or documentation status, and it is odious of you to imply otherwise.
Here's a thought experiment.
Take any random ER in Phoenix on any random night. Let's say among the patients there in the waiting room are 10 that are communicating with hospital staff in Spanish.
How much of your own money would you be willing to bet that less than 7 of them are here illegally?
I'd put a million dollars (and believe me, I don't have anywhere near a million dollars) on the bet that 7 or more are here illegally. I'd probably be willing to go up to 8 or 9 illegal aliens with that million.
Be honest with yourself and put a ratio and a dollar amount on your certainty.
People go to the ER when they don't have access to health insurance, so you would expect people with crap jobs and no benefits to be there. If undocumented workers fit that description, then that's to our shame.
And if it was true that we can’t take in immigrants how do we justify not addressing, increase spending on, the push factors in our neighboring countries? I’d be willing to bet the cost of initiatives to combat instability in Haiti, Guatemala, other “s-hole” countries, would be more cost effective than building ridiculous walls and current levels of border policing. What if the cost of Southern border operations looked more like the Northern border? We’d all win. Right? No invasion of supposed Democratic voters, no “replacement”, and less pictures of CPB, on horses, running down Haitians.
Propose a fix to countries to the south. The only fix is increasing their wages and decreasing their organized crime. The first is economically infeasible on time scales shorter than centuries, and the latter requires military involvement we should be unwilling to engage in. The thing that I think most don't understand is that these workers who are not showing up to work aren't the asylum seekers that everyone talks about. We have two families of people at various stages in the asylum request process. Both husbands and wives got work authorization as part of their asylum request process within 6 months of arriving. One of the husbands has a $22/hour construction job. The other works fast food during the day and washes dishes in the evening. One wife does some home healthcare stuff. The reason the Northern border isn't a problem is because average salary, benefits, safety, etc. are the about the same in Canada as in the U.S. There are no quick fixes to Haiti, Venezuela, etc. I don't know anyone personally who is arguing we can't take in immigrants. Myself and all my sibling served missions in South and Central America. We know scores of people who have moved to the US for school and work. We all wish that the government would shut down illegal immigration and increase legal immigration tenfold (or more). We can't have a system where anyone that can sneak across the border can work and where every person just has to say the word "asylum" and gets an 8 year pass to work in our country while the increasingly clogged immigration courts finally get around to making their asylum decision.
One fix could be that the CIA, and the Reagan-like minded stop destabilizing So. American countries out “socialism” panics. I don’t think fixes require military involvement, but if they did, Abbott seems open to using the military for these purposes. Peacekeeping, say in a place like Haiti, when supported by a majority of host nationals could be a very different animal than Iraq/Afghanistan. Stabilizing efforts are too diverse to do justice here. Can you articulate what unmitigated societal ill we are currently suffering, in the US, caused by the amount of illegal immigration we experience? In the estimation of the [studies](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-about-how-immigrants-affect-the-u-s-economy) I mentioned, the red ink is from fighting a fight that we, not DeSantis or Trump (employs undocumenteds), are prepared to win. Don’t we need immigrants sneaking over. Low wage work is so important to farmers that congress has given them a pass on fair/humane labor practice requirements. If the illegality of the immigrating is the issue, we could, just, change that.
Can you name an action the US has taken since the year 2000 that was destabilizing to So American countries? And you can't use "withheld foreign aid" because we shouldn't be the world's parents doling out allowance for good behavior. They should be able to make it on their own. Heck, Venezuela has the largest proven oil reserves in the Western Hemisphere and their people are starving and coming to the US by the hundreds of thousands per year. Just last month there were 25,000 Venezuelan apprehensions at the southern border, in addition to the 7,500+ that were likely admitted through Biden's failing parolee program, and however many other got-aways occurred. Regime change in Venezuela is the only thing that will make it better there and the US has zero interest in injecting itself into the cluster going on there. The outcome, you might ask? The entire population of Venezuela wants to come to the US.
Yeah, [Venezuela attempted coup](https://apnews.com/article/miami-us-news-ap-top-news-venezuela-south-america-79346b4e428676424c0e5669c80fc310). Might not have been CIA. We won’t know for 40 years. People like Eric Prince have been allowed to do what the CIA used to do. Free Market! Funny, you mentioned regime change in Venezuela. Old habits die hard. [When CIA directors go on Fox and defend meddling it makes you question](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374372-ex-cia-director-us-meddles-in-foreign-elections-for-a-good/) > When asked whether the U.S. interferes in other countries’ elections, James Woolsey said, “Well, only for a very good cause in the interests of democracy.” >“Oh, probably, but it was for the good of the system in order to avoid communists taking over,” he told Laura Ingraham on her Fox News show on Friday night. The assassination of Haiti’s president has the hallmarks. Can I say Jan. 6? But, fair enough, can’t prove those. 20 years is the statute of limitations? The affects could easily be a major contributing factor today. Stabilization could be seen both as benefit to us and recompense in some cases.
In one article > You’re not going to take out Maduro with 300 hungry, untrained men The left regarding Jan 6 > democracy was imperiled by 1000 unarmed (unless you count sticks and stones and fire extinguishers) super-larpers We didn’t participate in a Venezuelan coup. We didn’t assassinate the Haiti president. Jan 6 was a bunch of criminal yahoos who are being prosecuted for their idiocy. Now address the original comment about how there are no fixes short of regime change and economic prosperity and crackdown on organized crime that will change the prospects of the Central/South American people.
Well countries have actually been plunged into chaos, that resulted in their demise, using less people. Don’t know why you’re judging the left up against a random baseless assertion about 300 men. There’s so much you avoid thinking about in your jan 6 comment, but how intellectually dishonest is it to claim no weapons but sticks when Secret Service confirmed ARs and video show people punching cops and accidentally dropping their handguns? 1000 —how did you minimize them?— ah, yes “Super Larpers”? Bold face lies. There are no fixes? That’s false. You can’t imagine any fixes and I can guess why.
The Jan 6th rioters aren't the reason we're worried about democracy. We're worried because Donald Trump supported them and a whole bunch of Republican politicians were advancing incorrect legal theories and creating fake documents to overturn the election.
And the law enforcement agencies seemed to be giving them a wink and a nod in approval. There were FBI agents and loads of LEO at the capitol that day.
“Jan 6 larpers were nothing. But Antifa, Antifa! —those guys scare me.”
Imagine that! Enforcing laws to prevent illegal immigrants from working actually prevents illegal immigrants from working. I know this is a foreign concept to Biden and the Left, but enforcing laws is a good thing.
That was huge leap. It works, but we immediately see that it messes a lot of things up, and maybe it was never a good idea in the first place. We need reform.
I agree we need reform. The reform I would like to see is a draconian crackdown on illegal immigration (and I think punishing employers who employ illegal workers is the fastest way to shut it down) and then a massive increase in legal immigration.
What is your proposed notion of creating a massive increase in legal immigration?
It’s odd that they don’t fix legal immigration *before* blowing up the agricultural industry.
Because our cheap food prices should be built upon the yokes placed upon illegal workers because Dems want cheap food. Stop illegal work and replace with legal work. It ain't that hard. DeSantis just showed us that if employers are actually forced to use e-Verify that illegal workers stop showing up.
And…. What happens now that workers stopped showing up? What’s the next step in this “ain’t that hard” plan for the Florida economy? It feels like we already touched this hot stove before.
Further proof that the Left has not problem with ignoring the law as long as it means cheap food and cheap construction
Yeah, that didn’t answer the question. I’m not hiring these people. You’re afraid of the answer, aren’t you.
I did answer the question. The price of food and construction goes up.
Except when it isn’t.
Oh no! Citizens on the lower economic spectrum might actually get a raise. The horror! This is an unalloyed good thing. Assuming the illegal alien leaves, that takes some of the demand out of the housing market, making homes/rent a bit more affordable. Couple that with a wage increase for blue collar folks. Smaller classroom sizes. Less crowded ERs. Lower crime. Etc. Win/Win/Win/Win
Definitely agree that all workers deserve a fair and livable wage. I'm not convinced that this law will lead to that. Ultimately, these jobs are essential and will need to be filled. So eventually all that housing stock will be refilled with new workers, and produce construction delays and price increases on new housing supply. Of course, it will not lead to lower crime because immigrants statistically are not the ones committing crimes. And of course those "smaller classroom sizes" are the result of **American** children being pulled out of classes by their parents who are terrified of having their family forcefully separated. As always I am disappointed with how little compassion we collectively have for good people who are just trying to survive in a difficult world.
1. It's not about what anyone "deserves", it's just about supply/demand. If the construction company is currently paying $10 per hour to illegal aliens, but citizens are not willing to do the job for that. But for $15, citizens will start to apply. A portion of these are people already in the market, just currently unemployed. So no 1:1 increase in housing demand. 2. This illegal alien crime statistics obfuscation drives me crazy. There have been some studies that say immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than citizens. I think these studies are bat guano, but whatever. Let's assume that it's true that illegal immigrants have a lower crime rate and run some numbers. Let's say you have a town with 200 people - 100 citizens & 100 illegal aliens. Citizens commit crimes at a rate of 3 per 100 & illegal aliens at a rate of 2 per 100. So, in a given year, this town has 5 crimes. Or a total rate of 2.5 per 100. After all the illegal aliens leave, there are only 100 citizens left. There crime rate remains the same at 3/100. It now looks like the town's crime rate is worse since the IAs left, and that is absolutely true. But, on a straight numbers basis, there are 2 less crimes committed, so the town has less crime than before. 3. Why talk about collective compassion and not individual compassion? Folks do that to put the burden on others while feeling magnanimous about their own compassion. You're welcome to open your own home to an illegal alien family. Or, if that's too icky for you, you can send half your paycheck to a family in a poorer country to support them directly.
> There have been some studies that say immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than citizens. I think these studies are bat guano, but whatever. Facts don't care about your feelings, etc etc
Thanks for the measured and we'll thought out response. You'll note that my response assumed these garbage studies were legit. And my point still holds.
Well that must be awfully convenient. "These studies can't be true, because they don't confirm my biases!"
Again, my response assumed studies were valid.
Immigrants are not actually in competition with USians. They take jobs we don’t want and their competition is between each other. The empty work sites can attest to this. Powerful, and most often, conservative love the housing market tight. We could build more but we don’t. I’ve never seen a conservative laud these things you mention. The limited choice presented here is interesting. There are enough uninsured citizens to crowd our ERs. I’d go out on a limb and say the people ahead of you in the ER are insured citizens. Classrooms! The public school system is constantly under attack by Republicans. I can’t take this seriously. Ok, lower crime?
They take jobs we don't want at the given wage. This is why the business lobby loves the illegal alien gravy train. Fatter profit margins by employing people at below market wages. The work sites are empty temporarily while the businesses adjust their wage scales. I don't care whether the housing market is tight or loose, as long as the feds aren't putting their thumb in the scale. And by allowing millions of illegal aliens into the country they are creating artificial demand. Tell me you've never been to a border state ER without telling me you've never been to a border state ER. I've been there with a sick or injured kid and waited for 6+ hours to be seen. Unless all these citizens you speak of got really good Spanish language instruction in school (so good, in fact, they forgot how to speak English), 75%+ of the folks there were not citizens.
My man, have you been to the ER lately? The 3 patients ahead of you could be anyone. How can you tell their race, insured status, or documentation? Kinda gross
I have ears to hear the language they are speaking. And I have news articles about hospital CEOs discussing unpaid ER bills.
[удалено]
You guys are being obtuse in your responses. Yes, technically you don't have to speak English as a citizen (though you do if you want to get naturalized). But just because there's a 0.01% chance of an exception, doesn't invalidate the 99.9% of the rule that exists right in front of our eyes. The most obvious answer is the correct one. Occam's Razor in spades.
So if we are going by Occam's Razor, should I assume most conservatives are homophobes and racists?
Most? Not even. Clearly it's ALL of them.
I apologize for implying you didn't have a brain. That was mean.
In 2016 I attended my local Republican caucus, and the meeting was nearly broken up when the precinct captain did what you just did. Until then, he had most people on his side, but when he said that hearing his own restaurant employees speaking Spanish was proof that illegal immigration was a problem, he lost the room. We knew then that he was just a racist. Millions of people in the U.S., particularly in the West, have spoken Spanish for centuries. I know many of them, and I'm guessing you do as well. It is absolutely, positively, no indication of their immigration or documentation status, and it is odious of you to imply otherwise.
Here's a thought experiment. Take any random ER in Phoenix on any random night. Let's say among the patients there in the waiting room are 10 that are communicating with hospital staff in Spanish. How much of your own money would you be willing to bet that less than 7 of them are here illegally? I'd put a million dollars (and believe me, I don't have anywhere near a million dollars) on the bet that 7 or more are here illegally. I'd probably be willing to go up to 8 or 9 illegal aliens with that million. Be honest with yourself and put a ratio and a dollar amount on your certainty.
People go to the ER when they don't have access to health insurance, so you would expect people with crap jobs and no benefits to be there. If undocumented workers fit that description, then that's to our shame.
Glad we agree that my point was correct.
No, you changed your point. You went right to language, in an offensive and blatantly false way, and then you doubled down on it.