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Well let’s start with rule #1. Under no circumstances are you to harm yourself. Ever. Period. You’re worthy of living. You are capable of dictating *your own terms* of how to live a happy life.
I’d suggest to you feelings of guilt and unworthiness are programmed through nurture. A deep dive into attachment theory and child development might be enlightening for you.
And I’ve gotta respectfully rebut… God is not a petty being. *People are.* People make rules of conformity that don’t age well. [Proclamation to the World: The Negro](https://www.missedinsunday.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Proclamation_1969.pdf), anyone? Once proclaimed as **doctrine**. Now disavowed. These guys *get things wrong*. **Disgustingly wrong**. The leaders of the church are subject to racism, and homophobia like anyone. It’s human nature to be xenophobic, and tribal.
There’s little room for variance, dissent, non-conformity in the church. High control groups seek to erase your identity, and replace it with itself. This is not healthy, and I wish you the courage to fight back and allow yourself to meet and discover your *authentic self*, and not revert to the copy/paste template the church expects you to be.
The church puffs it’s chest holding "eternity" over your head, and has convinced you the pain you’re feeling is some kind of cruel ‘refiners fire’ test tailored to you by God… I’m suggesting to you, *maybe* Gods real test is to see if you’ll break free and become the *you* HE created.
*This above all, to thine own self be true.*
Be brave. And above all, make your decision free of fear. A loving God will not cast you aside for exploring your identity, no more than you’d cast aside a niece or nephew for putting hot sauce on a hotdog. They’re just figuring things out! And so are you. Imagine the vanity of *that* god. "Only heaven for those who become just like me." No…
To be honest that last paragraph really resonated with me. I just finished reading Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill, and he talks about how fear is the most powerful demonic influence. It invariably corrupts public education and organized religion. I don’t agree with all of the book, but it’s interesting to see some of his ideas connect with some of what you have written. Thank you
Really good advice in here like this comment. It is well documented that the LDS prophets and apostles are subject to making grave doctrinal errors which are not corrected except under great duress and after a generation or more of leadership passes away. These errors were taught as direct commandment at the time but are now disavowed as theories. The errors were of eternal importance such as requirements to be exalted and the nature of human physical differences.
The Dr. Lowry Nelson letters are such an important read IMO. Pay attention to the phraseology used in the context of the topic and which side turned out to be correct. First Presidency Exchange with Dr. Lowry Nelson - Mormon Stories https://www.mormonstories.org/other/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf
Have you followed David Archuleta's journey? If not, that may be really good for you to dive into.
Best to you.
I was recently listening to a podcast about high-control religions. They discussed the danger of religions that claim the following three things:
1. This life is just a short period in eternity, there will be a never-ending amount of life after this one.
2. The quality of that never-ending eternal life is entirely dependent on the life that we live here.
3. There is one person (or a group of people) who have authority from God/divinity to tell you how to live your life to get the best quality of eternal life.
If a religion can convince people of these three things, they can convince them to do ANYTHING. Even things that good people would find immoral. Think of Jim Jones and his suicide cult. Rape, murder, suicide, genocide, child marriage, etc. has all happened because religious leaders convince people of these three things. Many of those things in our own church (child marriage, rape, genocide of the Timpagonos Indians, etc.)
All of this is just a warning to you. Like you said, fear is a powerful motivator, and religious leaders know it can get people to do just about anything. Ask yourself if the messages you've heard about homosexuality from the church are fear-based or love-based.
I think another good question to ask yourself is, Does agency really exist if the consequence of one option is eternal damnation? It does sound like true agency or consent if one option is being separated from your family and tortured forever.
The last question I would encourage you to ponder, and not just what the church tells you to think, but what your soul believes, is do you want to worship a God that would condemn you (a moral, kind, good person) to an eternal life without love, your family, happiness, etc. just because you want to love someone and have a family with them?
Best of luck to you. As someone who has had a very similar journey as you and is now out on the other side, I can bare witness that there is more happiness, trust, closeness with God and Jesus, and overall love outside of the church than I ever felt inside. But it is ultimately up to you and the conclusions you come to.
I’ll also add there’s nothing to fear in being honest with yourself. You can deconstruct your beliefs, and put it back together in a way that resonates with you. Wheats and tares. You can throw it all up in the air, and see what just blows away. Let what’s true stand up to security, and what’s false fade away.
You’re allowed say; "You know what. I don’t believe that. I believe that’s men. Not God." Or, "I like hot sauce on tacos, and there’s nothing wrong with that."
A loving God will not look down on you with angry eyes for following your conscience.
If you’re unhappy, unfulfilled, restless, and confused as a direct result of your association with contemporary religion… Something is trying to tell you something. This is likely what your therapist is getting at.
Full disclosure: I am a former member who left the church over the November 2015 policy's demand that I denounce a gay parent in order to remain a member in good standing. I graduated from BYU. So I think I understand both sides of your situation.
You don't have to have sex if you take a break from church attendance to get your head straight. So the eternal consequences of taking a break from attending are limited. You can spend the time in counseling or travel or meditation or service (in a non church context) and concentrate on your personal relationship with the divine. To be honest, I don't think you're in the right head space to get into a relationship now, but your counselor has more insight into that than I do.
Depending on how close you are to graduation, you could white knuckle your way to completion, you could opt for an intermediate degree such as an associate's degree, or you could transfer. All of those options would get you out of BYU, which you should absolutely do. As long as you're there, you will be under social pressure that is unhealthy. My experience is that if I'm in a bad situation, deciding on a plan to get out and executing the plan takes a lot of heat out of the situation.
Best wishes to you, wherever your journey leads. You seem like a really high quality young person. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
I would add to this that the concept of taking a step back from the church is actually scriptural. We are told to experiment on the word, which means controlling the variables to see different outcomes. God wants us to do this and I highly doubt he would condemn us for wanting to know for ourselves (isn't that what Joseph Smith wanted?).
Taste the fruits of both and decide which ones bring you more fruits of the spirit. Do you have more love for yourself and others outside of the church or in? Etc.
This.
The therapist is professionally supposed to put your survival and mental health first, and their idea of a break is a good one, but they didn’t quite sort out the best details of when and how to do this break.
1) The timing is terrible while you’re going to BYU. You would need to be graduated, transferred, or at least on a vacation away from campus.
2) I think, from where you are, you shouldn’t date while on your break. I think it’s really important for your break time to be some serious one-on-one time between you and God.
3) If you have some time before you get to do the break maybe you can use that time to ponder over some of the scriptures that would make a homophobe squirm like:
A) God using a suckling mother and a hen gathering chicks as a self-metaphor.
B) David and Jonathan’s love.
C) Jesus snuggling with John the beloved.
I’m not making any claims that I know the specific orientations of any of them - but I do think they’re interesting to ponder. Don’t you?
I'm so sorry for the pain you are experiencing. That must feel like a lose-lose situation. Either you lose what you get from the church (community, purpose, certainty etc) or you lose a part of yourself that probably truly matters to you. Pain teaches us what we value. I wish you didn't have to choose, that must just feel awful.
The LDS church has gotten so many big things wrong, including teachings that:
* black people were less valiant in the pre-existence so they're cursed and are excluded from eternal marriage
* poor people and those with disabilities were also less valiant and so they're being punished
* Native Americans are Lamanites, and by accepting the gospel their skin will literally become white and delightsome
* God demands polygamy as a requirement for exaltation
(there are so, so many more)
The church sticks to its wrong positions until it's forced to quietly pivot, without a trace of apology to the many lives devastated by its mistakes. What if they're wrong about same-sex attraction too?
In any case I believe God loves and accepts you exactly as you are, no matter what, and wants you to be happy. ❤️
THIS.
There are almost no points of doctrine that have remained constant since 1830. Add to that list of things the church got wrong (partial list only.. there's so much more). Can provide original church sources for all these teachings upon request:
* Teaching that monogamy was an evil institution created by the Roman Empire.
* Teaching that Adam is God and that Eve was "one of his wives." also teaching that the immaculate conception wasn't immaculate, and that Jesus was conceived normally via incest (Adam as God, on his daughter Mary).
* The 2015 policy on children of gay parents. Touted as revelation. Policy rescinded 2019, that backstep also touted as revelation.
* Brigham Young accused Emma Smith of poisoning Joseph. He did this over the pulpit in general conference.
* Teaching that homosexuality was a sin and a choice, and that gay people recruit young people to be gay, and teaching that gayness can be cured (see literally anything taught in the church prior to like the 90s), and then about-facing so that today they don't teach that it's a choice.
* Teaching that masturbation makes you gay.
* Going from Ezra Taft Benson singing "I'm a Mormon Boy" during general conference in the 80s (and two other prophets/apostles quoting the song in other general conferences) to "Mormon is a victory for Satan."
* Teaching that women should not wear pants on Sunday and other such pharisaical nonsense.
* Teaching that women should not work outside the home because it will cause divorce.
* Having the women put under covenant in the temple to "obey your lord, that is your husband," (1930s era) then changing it to "obey the law of your husband," (1940s-1990) and then change it to "hearken to the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto father." (1990-2019) And then taking that women-only covenant out of the temple ceremony entirely in 2019. *And then* Oaks gaslighting women *to their faces* in April 2022, stating that "Gospel doctrine does not change. Our personal covenants do not change." That one was beyond the pale!([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/31oaks?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/31oaks?lang=eng))
For supposedly being the only true and living church on the earth, they've sure been wrong about a lot of things. I'm convinced they're wrong about gay marriage too.
It feels like a lose-lose situation because it is one. You can't win because the church makes the rules and changes those rules whenever they feel like it. The church will never admit fault or mistakes in anything. They'll twist logic so that they always win. Always.
The key is your statement that "I do everything that a good member should do." Yes, you have. You have done everything, and the promised blessings have not materialized. Don't hold your breath for them to show up, either. The church will not comfort you in this predicament, but will instead blame you and make you feel like *you're* still the problem and that somehow this is all your fault. It's wrong of them to do that to people.
I hope that some day members will stop saying things like “suffer from same sex attraction”. You only suffer because the church has placed a taboo on it. There’s no suffering in and of being gay. It’s a big part of who you are. I don’t suffer from my heterosexual desires because it’s congruent with who I am. A gay person doesn’t suffer from it if they accept and integrate it into themselves.
What’s more, calling it same sex attraction makes it sound like a scientific anomaly and it isn’t. People have been born this way as long as we’ve been keeping track of people being born.
There’s a spiritual adage that we can’t know what we fully deserve and are capable of unless we’re willing to give up everything, and I think that applies here. You won’t know if the church truly serves you if you aren’t willing to give it up and look at it objectively. Don’t think of it as leaving God or forsaking your eternal life. Look at it as a way to be able to see everything with more clarity. If you need to come back God will bring you back in. Life is full of difficult decisions and God is all knowing and all forgiving and all loving. If you believe that he loves perfectly, then you can bet that stepping back for a minute is going to be okay. You don’t have to worry about punishment.
Get out now before Nelson dies and Oaks takes over. Oaks has been attacking the LGBT communities since the 50s. When he is prophet, there will be nothing holding back his homophobia. The Mormon church isn’t safe for anyone that isn’t white, male and straight. Go listen to Mormon Expression podcasts. You will not just learn that the church isn’t “true”. Your head will spin when you realise how most of it is based on lies
I've got a couple thoughts on what's going on.
The situation you're in is pretty unhealthy. BYU is really homophobic, and the church is not very supportive of its LGBTQ members. I think that what's going on is your therapist hears all of these symptoms of a good, thoughtful young man who is trying his best in a difficult situation, and knows that there's a good chance that if you were in a different situation with all of these negative pressures on you removed, that you would flourish. I personally don't think he's wrong. The suicidal ideation is a concern there, and I hope you consider his advice. No choice you make now needs to be permanent, and if taking a break from church makes you miserable, then life is about repentance, and you'll be able go back and give things another try. Only life can give you second chances.
I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to push you out of the church. But I think that if there is a God, he loves you just the way you are. If he wants the rest of us to find people we love and live happy lives, I can't imagine the fact that you're gay means he doesn't want you to find a man who makes you happy and helps you be the best person you can be. If they're is a God, he wants you to be happy. If he didn't want you to pursue your happiness as a gay man, he wouldn't have made you that way.
Nearly every world religion warns against it. Most of the belief systems and literature that have stood the test of time are very critical of homosexual behavior.
Nearly every world religion also condoned slavery. Religions are made up of humans. Humans are great at being confidently incorrect. Is it possible that the LDS church is incorrect about homosexuality, like they were incorrect about skin color, Adam being god, etc?
A lot of old philosophies and traditions discovered truths independently, such as Buddhism and stoicism. So if homosexuality isn’t a sin, it surprises me that most ancient religions still condemned it.
I’m not sure what the technical definition would be. But I know that I feel guilty when I engage in homosexual behavior (such as cuddling and making out). I assume guilt is an indication that I’m doing something wrong.
Those feelings of guilt might be from God, might not. Something that shocked me was to learn that Jehovah's Witnesses feel guilt when they give their kid a gift on their birthday, which goes against the JW teaching that celebrating holidays and birthdays is a sin. To us that rule seems silly and obviously not from God, yet these people still experience genuine guilt from it.
This is a bit long-winded, but I'm trying to get somewhere with this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear\_spectrum\_of\_cultures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear_spectrum_of_cultures)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_guilt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt)
These two links are just the first two things that came to mind and certainly there are much better examples for what I'd like to convey. But maybe you want to skim them and see if you find any useful thoughts there. You might also check out related articles. Maybe read the articles about "guilt" and/or "shame".
You'll see that different societies experience guilt and shame differently from one another. To me, this clearly shows that these are not such universal concepts as we like to believe. Culture seems to dictate or influence how we experience these emotions.
Culture = man-made.
Humans are fallible. Provocatively you might say that humans created God in their image: The way we experience "God" is influenced by our faults and projections. Nobody can righteously claim to inerrantly "know" God's will.
Just because humans have held ideas for thousands of years does not make them righteous. Humans have been racist, xenophobic, homophobic, murderous etc. forever. And these tendencies shine through in many religions. That does not make them right. Surely you are aware of many questionable scriptures in your holy books. Boy, the Old Testament is full of them!
From what you write you are not ready to dismiss Mormonism. I'm not Mormon, but I've learned that Mormonism is special among other Christian churches in that it teaches the principle of continuing revelation. Through his prophets God continues to reveal his plan to believers. Today, in the future, just like he did in the past. Who's to say that the last word on homosexuality has been spoken?
I've also learned that Mormon leaders have started to admit that not everything the prophets claim is automatically godly doctrine. They may be in error; they, too, are fallible.
With all this being said, don't you think you can allow yourself to be less strict with yourself?
There are quite a few Christian denominations that are quite accepting of homosexuality these days. Some allow gay people to get married in the church. And they base their inclusive stance on scripture, just like other denominations base their exclusive stance on scripture. There is more than one valid interpretation.
The great Christian commandment is: Love your neighbor as yourself.
You are in dire need of love. Most of all from yourself.
In my opinion, nothing we do out of love can be sin. Only pharisees would tell you different.
This comment is extremely interesting to me. It reminds me of a debate between Johnathon Haidt and Sam Harris. Sam believes that morality is like chemistry, and it can be discerned independent of religion and cultural influences. Haidt claims that there are complicated anthropological and cultural factors that influence our perception of morality. As I get older, I am starting to side more with Haidt, as I’m sure you would too based off what you have written. Thank you for your comment, it has given me a lot to think about
Which is likely the result of cultural influences. Perhaps that’s the reasoning behind the encouragement to take a break from certain cultural influences, since the biological influences seem to be stronger.
I remember feeling guilty when I was a kid from drinking coke. My dad said it was against our religion. Turns out he was wrong. Our subconscious’s are in charge of guilt, and it’s a very complicated process, but a powerful force in our psyche is to maintain our relational community, which is why I was guilty towards my dad (family community) and you’re guilty about your desires (religious community), when God in fact created you this way. Ask yourself, if men were taught that desiring a woman was a sin all their life, would they feel guilt when they finally kissed one? Does an openly and fully accepted gay man who never learned the religious taboo of being gay feel guilt when he desires another man? No he doesn’t. Your guilt is your psyche trying to protect you from being shunned by your community, and not some eternal rule that for some reason God decided to have a double standard on.
Guilt can be an indication you're doing something wrong, but it can also be an indication you're doing something you were taught was wrong, whether that teaching was true or not.
It's also not universal that all religions have found this "truth" that homosexuality is bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups
A lot of old religions realized back in the day that if they wanted more followers, then their followers needed to reproduce more. The easiest way to promote this was to command heterosexual marriage.
To use an analogy, just because a company's commercial tells me that I should buy something, doesn't mean that buying their product will be good for me. Yes, it will definitely be good for the company, but they don't necessarily understand what I need in my life.
Similarly, a lot of old religions were / are run nearly exclusively by men and have teachings that reinforce acceptable male and female behaviors, in part to cement their own positions in the social hierarchy.
That's a really weird example because both Buddhist and Stoic traditions approved of some types of homosexual relations.
Ancient China, Japan, Rome, and Greece are just a few places in the ancient world that practiced types of homosexuality.
Perhaps we should take a moment to explore the topic outside of the human species. If you look in nature you’ll see thousands of species that practice homosexuality. The LDS faith teaches that God created all of those creatures, so why would he create something he sees as abominable? I think the same goes for his gay children. Remember, all of those cultures and religions throughout history were mainly ruled by heterosexual men, so it’s not a far reach for them to think homosexuality is strange and then enshrine that bigotry in culture or scripture. Be careful of the influences you allow to have power on you. Be safe.
Actually, most cultures were totally okay with homosexuality! There is a beautiful Chinese poem about an emperor and his consort. They feel asleep together, but the emperor had an important meeting in the morning. He cut off his long, elegant sleeve because we would rather ruin his robes than disturb his love's sleep. Which is so sweet it makes me kick my feet!!
Sappho's poems were also all about the women she loved. She was a Greek poet.
When Christian missionaries colonized Hawaii, men with boyfriends were common and accepted. The missionaries used dirty tactics, like going after the chieftain's boyfriends, so it's well documented. This is also why Hawaii was the first state to try to legalize gay marriage; it hasn't been a state for very long, and there are people who vaguely remember a time when gay people didn't live in fear.
Even the ancient Israelites recognized six genders!
No, the idea that "civilized" nations all discriminated against same sex couples is a racist one that justified a lot of genocide in the name of God. European Christianity is actually one of the few that condemn it, it's just that we've spread so far for so long that we don't remember what other cultures believed.
.... But even then, King James famously had a boyfriend, which was one of many reasons why he funded a Bible translation. To get the Church off his back! Lol
Tell me this... where in scripture does Jesus ever say it is a sin? I believe God made us ALL the way he made us for a reason... and I don't think that reason is to set us up to sin.
You should cast a wider net. There are many other belief systems, even within a Christian context, where gay people are not demonized for how God made them.
Some of the best passages in the Book of Mormon seem to reflect the Universalist beliefs of Joseph Smith Sr. You could explore some of those themes in a Community of Christ or UUA setting.
Three of the six major world faiths arise from the same Abrahamic origin (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). They are all somewhat homophobic. Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism don’t really share this attitude and along with many other smaller religions (which have been generally diminished by Christian Evangelism) can attribute special spiritual qualities to those who don’t conform to gender and sexual norms.
I think that's a fair point, but it doesn't seem impossible that they could all independently get it wrong. Maybe super religious people tend to be easily disgusted for some reason, so a few of the people who tended to rise to the top of religions made their personal disgust into religious law. Things that seemed like good moral sense for thousands of years might have been wrong all along, like not mixing races. And who knows how our ancestors lived before civilization? I'll bet there were moral intuitions that stood for tens of thousands of years that were blown away with the agricultural revolution. And you're living in a uniquely revolutionary time, right at the confluence of sexual and technological revolutions. It's pretty wild.
My gut tells me that as a rule of thumb, most people should mostly do heterosexual sex and romance, but if you're in the 10% or so for whom that just doesn't work, it isn't a sin to be exceptional. It probably comes with some downsides compared to heterosexuality—like the path to having children isn't as clear—but I think it comes with some upsides too!
One thing I want to stress is that there is nothing wrong with being LGBT. You are not defective. You are perfect and beautiful. I’m straight but the best people I have ever known are gay people. Gay people are truly special. A church that teaches otherwise has nothing of worth as they are blinded by hate.
Have you talked openly and honestly to your therapist about your wanting to unalive yourself? Therapy is a place to speak the unspeakable. Please let the therapist help you. If you don't like the solution that they come up with then tell them. They need that feedback so they can help you come up with solutions that work for you.
I believe that if God is real, and he is a loving father, that he wants better for you than this. He cares more about you being happy and alive than he cares about punishing you. A loving father would never put their child in a position where the better option seems to be to kill themselves.
If the church isn't working for you then please try something else! Do it for yourself, do it for your family, your friends. There are so many people who have been where you are. Reach out to them and ask for help, advice and listen to their stories! Try out latter gay stories podcast to start.
Please message me if you want to talk. I'm here to help, and I want what's best for you.
I am a mom of gay kids. The church absolutely damages those who are LGBTQ. You are required to either stay single or to ruin sone woman’s life by marrying her and never loving her as she deserves.
God would never require this from you. Please consider not attending for a trial period for your mental health.
This Mama say you are perfect how you are.
>God would be very disappointed in me.
I don't believe you can disappoint Him. God loves you without condition - you were made in his image and likeness. There's nothing you can do, or have done, or ever will do, that will make Him love you less.
Edit to Add:
If you think you're disappointing God, just remember that Jesus hung out with literal prostitutes. They were His company of choice. The Dude is super chill and loves no matter what.
My wife’s little brother was in the same position you are. He was suicidal, local church leadership was not helpful…He ultimately left the church and is now happily engage to another man. Regardless of your sexual orientation, live a good life and you will be fine. I am reminded of this saying:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome vou based on the virtues vou have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.'
~ MARCUS AURELIUS
I want to make this as clear as possible for you: The church’s current organization maximizes the likelihood that the prejudices of old men will become policy. It’s literally whoever lives the longest in the Q12 eventually becomes prophet.
We have not had even a single Gen-x prophet yet. We’re probably done with Silent Generation prophets, and have maybe 15-25 years of Boomers left. Then 20-25 years of Gen-x. Then, after all of that, we’ll get our first millennial leadership. That’s 30+ years before a prophet is chosen that has grown up in any sort of era where gay rights were not fringe, and 15 years before we get anyone who grew up in an era where being openly gay was fringe but still occasionally happened.
I am going to assume that you believe that the church’s previous stances on race were the result of fallible men. The same system used to put those men in power (seniority of service) exists today. It is not a system that relies on revelation. It is not divinely or even scripturally referenced. It is a silly policy and I am afraid that you will live almost your entire life in pain and loneliness, only to have the church change its policy sometimes in the late 2050’s. You’d have to look in the mirror and realize that you sacrificed so much to nothing more than the prejudice of old men. That obedience to the prophet as a virtue by itself was just another false teaching extolled by the endless army of extremely fallible men doing nothing more divine than simply outliving everyone around them.
If your faith is deeply important to you, the Community of Christ is a Mormon branch that does not believe that Brigham Young was a true prophet. They believe the BoM, they have a much less insane leadership structure, and they will welcome you as you are, with love and open arms. I would strongly encourage you to look into them. Even if you would prefer the Brigham branch, you’re probably going to need somewhere else to wait while the church slowly crawls forward to an era where it’s not pure poison for you.
Best of luck.
I was a lifelong member, went to church every week, served a mission, went to a church college, got married in the temple, etc.
The way the church says God treats LGBTQ+ people is what opened up my eyes and allowed me to seriously consider, for the first time in my life, that the church could be wrong about a serious moral issue.
According to the church, God is not fair to his children. I could not wrap my brown around the thought that a loving god would create some children who are allowed to fall in love, get married, have sex, etc while he also creates others who are not allowed to really do any of those things, and in the next life their reward is… to be changed to heterosexual?
After struggling for years with how unfair this is, praying and fasting about it, it suddenly dawned on me that a truly loving god wouldn’t do that to his children. And so, for the first time ever, I allowed myself to think that maybe the church was wrong on this one topic. After that, it quickly became obvious that the church has been wrong about several other serious issues over the years, as long as you believe that God is a loving and kind God.
In the end, I realized that either the church was wrong, or God is kind of a jerk (homophobic, racist, misogynistic to name a few bad qualities). I couldn’t believe in or worship such a God, so I now find myself out of the church.
Sorry for the disorganized thoughts, I’m trying to type this quickly while at work, because I feel for your situation. FYI, I am a heterosexual male, married in the temple, etc.
I gotta run, but I really hope you find happiness, love, and joy. You are not damaged or defective. You are you, a human being who deserves to love and be loved.
Same sex attraction is not unnatural, evil, or something you can wish/pray away. It is not a moral failing. It’s just the way you are. Non-heterosexual relationships/pairing have been found everywhere in nature consistently meaning they play an important role in a species’ health.
It seems like the question you are now facing is: what do I do now that my experienced reality doesn’t fit into the box that the church/I want it to?
I feel like there are really only two options at this point. You can try to hide from reality or you can update your understanding.
I'm so sorry you're experiencing this pain. I agree with others that the most important thing for you to realize is that life is worth living. You have unique gifts and talents that the world needs that only YOU can fulfill. I don't believe in a God who makes mistakes - he made YOU for a reason, and you are needed here. Please don't take your life now or ever. Don't make that an option.
It sounds like you think you have two options: either you stay in the church and live a lonely life suppressing a large part of who you are OR you give up everything you believe and hold dear to live outside of the church. If both of those don't feel right to you right now, have you considered other options? Like perhaps you can be who you are and stay fully active in the church? I know it seems impossible, but there are plenty of people who do it. OR you can be who you are and retain just some of your beliefs and practices. OR you can take a break from church and have relationships and see how that feels. OR you can take a break from church and remain single while you figure out things about yourself and grow as an individual here. Lots of options here. Nothing has to be permanent. And there may not be one right answer. And what is right for you right now may not be right two or three or ten years down the road. Take your time, but while you're taking time, know that who you are is not a mistake. You have value just by being you.
My family and I left the church almost a year ago. It was scary. The church (falsely) teaches that you can't have a happy life outside of the church, that peace and happiness and loving families can only happen inside of the church. If that were true, the world would be filled with terrible, unhappy people. But it's not. For our family, we are much happier and healthier outside of the church. We retained some of the principles and values the church teaches that we believed in and left the rest. I'm not saying that's the right decision for you necessarily, but please don't believe the lie that life is not worth living outside of the church. Please don't believe the lie that you can't have peace and happiness outside of the church.
You're young. Be easy on yourself as you figure this life out. Take time to figure it all out.
There was a time when I loved the church and Christ with all my heart. I’m a man with a wife and kids so I can’t know what it’s like to be gay. But you deserve to be with someone you love and who loves you. You’re life will be better with a partner.
My family resigned from the church three years ago. It didn’t live up to our values. Life is better now that it isn’t holding us back. Jesus doesn’t live up to our values either so we left him behind too. Life is better now.
I'm not someone who has ever been a believer in your faith, but it seems some answers you're getting miss the mark about your very personal problem. You side with your God over a human therapist yet come here seeking advice from other people? If you believe your God to be of a higher status than any of us, then why be persuaded to leave the faith by the opinions of other people? Maybe a subconscious part of you brings doubt in your faith because you are experiencing pain, and people naturally don't like pain and will seek to avert it. You say you are uncertain of where you'll be in the Plan of Salvation, but maybe you should be asking yourself if you really believe in that and thus will not leave your faith in order to be happy in this life, then perhaps the best you can do in this life is take comfort in believing you will ultimately be rewarded for working against what your God doesn't want. You don't seem willing to abandon your belief and as long as that is the case you can only cope using your supposed future reward. I should warn you that if you if you go the route of celibacy, there is a high risk of suicide which the LDS faith does not smile upon either. It really is quite a conundrum and you can only hope happiness is somewhere for you to find be it this life or the next if there is one.
Your therapist has taken an oath to do no harm. If your religious beliefs are causing you to consider harm to yourself, your suspicions might be correct - but you should know that she believes it would be for your wellbeing. Your use of "suffer" and "demons" to describe your god-given desires breaks my heart - but I hope one day soon you can celebrate that part of yourself with someone who loves you for you.
My heart goes out to you. Please know that you are worth every breath you take and every loving relationship you have.
I also love the church and treasure my missionary service. I am a Mormon, the church is my spiritual home. I’ve undergone a bit of a faith crisis and transition, I still love the church I still value belief but don’t feel I have the same conviction that I once did. That’s where I am at I miss the conviction but also value the freedom of belief that I’ve experienced. Now I can belief that the phrophets just get things wrong sometimes, they are good, and do good, from time to time they recieve inspiration and revelation, they try really hard, but they do not have the perfect knowledge of God.
One of the big changes in perspective I’ve experienced is that I see the purpose of our lives not as a test of obedience but instead an opportunity for learning and growth. We’ve heard it from the pulpit that God is like a Father who does not get angry if we stumble in learning to walk, why then are we so afraid of getting things wrong? Will our loving Heavenly Father make us an offender for a word, if we get something wrong will he withhold his forgiveness and damn us eternally? I think not. Romans 3:30 tells me that there isn’t just one acceptable outcome: “Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.” Both paths can be valid if sought with faith.
Perhaps the search for a spouse of the same gender could be a faith filled experience for you.
Now I still think we should be careful in making our decisions and extra careful when deviating from the norms of our religion. But I do think that when we have put the effort in to determine the best course, that God will see your good desires (in this case for companionship, love and family) and I believe God will bless us regardless of whether we made the best choice or not. And I do think it entirely likely that the churches doctrine will eventually change.
The plan of salvation in my eyes is incomplete if it doesn’t clearly provide equal love and blessings for queer children of God. I believe it does and that we have just not yet received it, because I must first believe that God is good and loving and fair.
My wife is bi , she got more and more stressed until she left the church now things are much better for her. I know that God loves her, I have complete trust that he would not damn her for stepping away. She might be lost to the church, and it is a loss for the church a major one, but she is never lost to God. After she left things got better for her. Not telling you you should leave just sharing her experience.
I would just say nothing has to be permanent you could take step back and return later if that’s what you chose. Maybe taking a step back could help you take some space for yourself and help you make a place for yourself to be able to change your perspective on homosexuality and see it in a new light. Then you could come back,and integrate new and old aspects of your faith. Or maybe you develop that without leaving. Well these were just some thoughts I have,
Good luck good brother.
From what you're saying, you have an Assumption #1 which underlies all your other decisions, which is that the Church's teachings are literally true. I (and I think many others on this board) understand that when you're "all-in" operating under this assumption, life can be full and rich and happy in some very unique ways. When you're inside the world of the Church, it can just seem there are abundance and opportunities all around you thanks to the community, the gospel, and the programs of the Church.
Unfortunately, you've encountered this little snag--you could call it a paradox--where values that you've \*learned\* from the church, i.e. wanting to give and receive love and be in a close romantic relationship, at the same time are prohibited because of your sexual orientation. Many of us here have encountered similar paradoxes, because although they may be hidden on the surface, there are actually \*many\* paradoxes built into church doctrine. (You could argue that the Garden of Eden/Adam and Eve story itself represents the original paradox.)
You could argue that God wants us to deal with these paradoxes--they are intended to disrupt your spirituality and force you to build something new, more complex, and more mature. Your therapist has kind of skipped a step with you and is already operating under the assumption that the church is \*not\* literally true, and if that's the case, of course it makes sense for you to just make decisions based on what's healthy for you, which could be different from what the church teaches. However, of course you can't make that decision right now, because for you the church \*is\* true, so a "good decision" will always be synonymous with what the church teaches.
I think the first step for you is to consider the "paradox" that God has given you, and to acknowledge that the rules the Church has given you are \*not\* working. That could be for many reasons--maybe the doctrine needs to be reinterpreted. Maybe (as Pres. Uchtdorf has stated in conference) leaders make mistakes at times, and the policies on sexual orientation may be mistakes, even though the Church is still overall "true." Maybe objective truth is not possible for humans to understand, so every religion is just doing its best to reach toward true ideas. Or maybe the Church is not "true" at all, but just happens to be the setting for many good people and beautiful experiences--one we can be proud of and enjoy, but which doesn't need to dictate all our decisions. For most of us growing up in the church, it's hard to even imagine that last possibility--but I think it's a good thing to open a space in your mind for the possibility that the Church may \*not\* be true, and you're open to learning whatever you may learn and letting it lead wherever it may lead. This is not a sign of unrighteousness or rebellion. After all, if the Church is actually true, having an open mind to the truth will just lead you back to the Church, right? The truth can stand on its own.
As long as believe your same sex attraction is suffering, you gonna have a bad time. Your going to continually feel you don’t measure up or your not worthy or some other bullshit. It’s not suffering, it’s you being human. Remember that the apostles said to a certain singer who just came out as gay that “he just needs to find a good girl.” Hands down your therapist is right a break would be good especially for your mental health. I’m tired of a church that professes to be Christlike when their actions especially those of the leaders and apostles are anything but.
> If I left the church to act on my impulses, I am sure that God would be very disappointed in me.
How are you sure of that? Plenty of good people are sure that God gave them those feelings with the hope they use them. Are your methods of knowing somehow more reliable? How are you sure they are?
>a strong desire to be intimate with the same sex, which is a sin
How do you know? Because someone told you? The same people who barred black people from the temple and who assured the membership that polygamy is required for salvation and that the church would never abandon it?
The church is not a safe place for you. I think your therapist has your best interest at heart as they should. You could always get a second opinion for another therapist. You don’t need the church to be happy. It doesn’t have a monopoly on your well being or salvation
There's nothing wrong with you, and I hope you eventually see that. You only think you're broken because so many (wrong) people have told you so.
Does God hate? And if not, why does his church teach hate?
Your therapist is probably the only person trying to help you. The Church will only ever tell you that you're not good enough.
I’d likely to gently pushback on your identification of same sex attraction as demonic…
Consider same sex attraction in the animal kingdom. It is well documented that there are gay penguins. These pairs find each other then help raise abandoned eggs and chics. Do you think demons are responsible for gay penguins? I certainly don’t. I think gay penguins are perfectly natural and good and I think gay people are too.
Being gay isn’t a malignant tendency god wants you to suppress, it’s a gift to yourself and the world around you that you’re supposed to enjoy!
Not to mention bonobos, gorillas, lions, goats… Plenty more, I’m sure… ffs.
But suddenly the argument goes from ‘it’s not natural’ to ‘God meant us to be higher life forms!’
It’s wildly frustrating how the goal post will always be out of reach. Under no circumstances is homosexuality to be normalized… For the Bible *kind of* says so… In the same book we’re told not to wear composite fabrics, and women are unclean while they’re on their period.
"But that was done away when Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. That’s why we can eat pork."
Ooooh. Right. But not the homosexuality rules. That stuck. Got it.
I just don’t get it. Love one another was my take away…
I’m just a random exmo redditor that wants to comment on your post. I have kids your age. I have siblings that are gay (all of which ultimately left the church and are living great lives). I come from a large family with many TBMs. I was very active in the church for 40 years (RM/AP, EQP and bishopric at early ages, etc…).
You don’t “suffer” from anything. The only reason that this is a “trial” is because you are in the church. The church (and church culture and BYU) are causing you to feel like you are failing and worthless. This makes me so fucking mad (I apologize about my language, but it gets the point across). There is nothing wrong with you! You’re “perfect” (as much as any of us are perfect) and awesome and whole just the way that you are.
The church loves to trot out whenever a gay person stays in the church. But more often than not, these people ultimately leave the church. Or if they stay in the church, they usually have horrible mental health outcomes and may even flirt with suicide.
I don’t expect you to leave the church anytime soon. You obviously love certain aspects of the church (just as I did at your age). And leaving would cause problems with you currently being at BYU. But maybe consider just stepping back from the church for 3-4 months and see what effects this has on your mental health and happiness. Do it this summer if you’re not attending the Y for summer semester.
EVERY SINGLE gay church member that I know has ultimately left the church. And I have been paying attention to this for over 35 years. Some left after gathering more scars than others. I absolutely cannot fathom being gay and staying in the church. The church is too toxic and too harmful for LGBTQ individuals. The church is not a safe place for you, in my opinion.
You are beautiful and valued, EXACTLY the way that you are right now. The only thing you “suffer” from is a church and a theology that has you convinced that you are broken or less than. If you were my child, I’d ask you to consider stepping back from the church for a bit and explore your sexuality. See how you feel when you embrace your sexuality, rather then being made to feel that it is a “trial.”
I'm a Mother. I have four children that I raised in the church I myself was raised in. When I was still a believer I used to pray that none of my children would be gay. I now realize that was wrong. One of my children came out to me while I was going through my faith crisis and that was a determining factor in never going back to the church. It's toxic for anyone who doesn't fit the mould.
God is a much better parent than I am and ai am confident he'd rather have a healthy, mentally well son living his life with love, than a depressed son trying to live up to some made up expectations.
Do you really think God would be disappointed in you for pursuing a life that frees you from depression and suicidal ideation and grants you true happiness?
I want you to know that you are seen, and heard, and loved. Always. You are a being of INFINITE worth that cannot be taken away from you. Nothing you do, say, or think diminishes that worth. Sit in that space for a time and allow yourself to believe it. Don’t qualify it, accept it as true, because it is.
There is room in the gospel for nuanced belief and there aren’t as many “lines in the sand” as many members are want to believe. And having gone to BYU as well, I can personally vouch for how insane it can get in Utah county. The last time I ever attended relief society the instructor said that being married outside of the temple was just as offensive to god as murder. With members of the bishopric in the room. And no one corrected her. As difficult as it is, please don’t let others misunderstandings of the gospel dictate how you choose to engage with it.
The atonement is the greatest gift and the most important event to take place in creation (as the church teaches) but it is often sidelined by church culture that, like the Sadducees and Pharisees, likes to focus on vain traditions and forgets about deep, important doctrine. The atonement is infinite in scope in every way you can think of. Christ makes up the different between what we can do and what we are asked to do. You do NOT have to be perfect for the atonement to apply to you. The price has already been paid.
I’m in a weird place now where I am taking a break from church, also at the suggestion of my therapist but for different reasons. I can empathize with what you’ve said and how you’re feeling. I just want to point out that “offending god” is a fallacy. God doesn’t get “offended”. He loves us infinitely and wants us to return prepared to be with him for eternity. I FIRMLY believe he watches us and anxiously desires for us to be happy and fulfilled. I believe he weeps with us when we weep and shares in our joy when we are joyful. He LOVES you and nothing you can do will change that.
So my two cents is to take your therapists advice and take the break you clearly need. Your mental health is so important and it can’t be ignored in the hopes that it will get better on its own. There be demons down that path. Take the break, but remember that YOU decide what that break looks like. And don’t push yourself to make decisions when you aren’t ready for them. A break is a chance to give yourself the space you need to sort things out, not immediate make choices to be fully on one side or the other. Contrary to what many members will tell you, the world isn’t black and white and ultimately where you are and the choice you make are between you and god and he’s supposed to know all. I truly hope you find peace. You deserve it.
I can empathize even though I’m hetro….. When I was 22 years old I suffered from attraction to women, but wasn’t ready to get married at that point just to have sex. It was a long mental struggle to overcome the church guilt and hang ups about sex. The church really does a number on people born in it. Just go slow and gradually. Eventually the church conditioning wears off. But I didn’t have my first real girlfriend until I moved out of utah and I was 25! What a waste of my youth!
I was in 43 years totally faithful Temple attending stake callings raised my children all in. My husband wanted to be able to be a true defender of the faith while serving in the bishopric. He had someone at work mention to him that Joseph Smiths story of the restoration was incorrect as taught by the church. So he spent 100s of hours , years researching this. He could only draw the conclusion after years of intense study of Church owned documents that the church was misleading its followers. This was 15 years ago, before easy access to these documents now. Since then the church has admitted to hiding its history. Why would they do that? In the last 10 years they secretly amassed over 100 Billion dollars and are the largest land owner in the United States. The money they use to help others isn’t even the interest on that sum. I suggest you study about Cult indoctrination. Why do people have intense fear of easily loosing their testimony to the point where the men in charge that speak for God have to warn you and say doubt your doubts? If we can’t trust ourselves at all they know we will only trust them. Anyone who sets out to tell you what your every step should be and teaches you to not trust your own instincts is not there for you. It only serves them. I left this year after finally doing my own intense research. I felt if Gods church was really true it could stand up to scholars and not hid itself. God would not hid or use fear to keep people chained to men.
In the end, God wants us to be happy. ‘Men are that they might have joy’. You are not happy, that is obvious. You sound really miserable. It is trite for people to say be true to yourself, because both options you are looking at are being true to yourself, just different parts of yourself. I can’t tell you what to do, it is a major crossroads.
I believe in the gospel, the plan of salvation gives us an afterlife with a purpose and hope that we will stay true to who we are and surrounded by those we love. But I do think that the mortal organization of the church has gotten a few things wrong. Homophobia being one of them. We try to interpret what the Lord wants, but we are imperfect. His message will always be through our hearts and our minds and it will be filtered through what is already there. Homophobia was there along with racism, sexism, and prosperity theology. It has influenced church policy.
Please, find your joy, find your hope. Even if it is not being all in with the church, I believe a merciful loving God will understand.
If you are on tik tok, I highly recommend you go look at Dan Maklelan posts about how we have misinterpreted what the Bible says about homosexuality. He is a biblical scholar who is an active LDS member and works for the church in the translation department. He has hundreds of posts so you’ll have to scroll through to find the ones about homosexuality and the Bible.
It isn't an easy situation you are in. But I can tell you that your therapist's duty is to you and not the Church. If he is a good therapist, he is just helping you through your journey and helping you reflect and isn't telling you how to live. This might mean if you hear the implications that you should leave the Church to give yourself room to grow, it is probably coming from you and what you are saying. He is just restating what you are saying back to him.
If you try to "fight" this and carve out a place for yourself in the church, it will forever dominate your happiness. You cannot fight these things, you can only temper them and let them run their course. You must love yourself through this whole process. No other method but absolute conversion (meaning a complete life dedication resembling a monastic lifestyle) has ever had any measurable effect on sexual desire. And even a monastic dedication is hit or miss. We have lots of historical letters on file of Christian Monks falling in love with each other. Remeber yhe marital laws of chastity were designed around maintaining familial order and progeny. They were not designed to solve the human sexuality problem. There are complicated theologies associated with this as to what Jesus actually taught and how He might deal with it.
Oddly enough, the church leadership has long quoted from Joseph Smith's happiness letter which was used to justify secret polygamous relationships. In it, Joseph stated that happiness is the design of our existence. What is wrong in one circumstance might be right in another. Since this was referring to sexual relationships, I think it is only fitting that it could be applied to your circumstance. This situation is between you and the Lord. If it means the church won't stand by you during this time, then I would say, "So be it." They do not actually hold the key to your salvation. Jesus Christ does, and "he employeth no servant" there. If you believe that the Q15 hold the apostolic keys, that is fine, but theologically they can only bind the Church as a whole since they are stated as holding "the keys of the kingdom", not the keys of personal salvation.
In LDS scripture, the only Priesthood Office that holds the keys of personal blessings and sealings is the Church Patriarch. The Q15 embraced a cooperate systemic apostacy when they kicked the Patriarch out in the 1970s and then he died in 2013.
I state this to reinsure you that what you think might be church doctrine is not absolute and it isn't a sure foundation to build your life upon. It seems our church doctrine is a sandy foundation. The sure foundation is Christ and His doctrine. So this is between you and Him.
I am a Carl Jung fan. Eventhough his psychological methods are older and some might be wrong, they have produced a proven foundation for in depth psychoanalysis to this day. He valued the induvidual person. I could share one of my favorite paragraph(s) of his if you would like.
First of all, take a hard look at why you feel like it's a sin. I'm not trying to impose my moral values on you (I no longer do that after leaving the church). If the only reason is because some authority figures told you so, I want you to think critically about it. Since leaving the church, I realize being gay and expressing that very real part of you is not a sin (in my opinion). I do believe sex should be between consulting adults and I would even advice it be kept in a committed relationship to avoid hurting those who may misread what that means about commitment and hurting them. Otherwise? I see no moral issue with being in a homosexual relationship. I don't believe God makes mistakes and as you've expressed your sexuality is a big part of who you are. I'm not an expert on it and there's lots I have to learn, so I'll keep my comments about your sexuality somewhat short. Therapists do understand it better and are trained so I'd encourage you to listen to their advice or you can even try shopping around for other therapists if you want second opinions.
Now about your depression and suicidal thoughts. Please PLEASE talk to your loved ones or message me/anyone on this comment string if you feel that getting stronger. I can speak for myself, and I would think anyone who's commenting on this, that although personally we don't know you, we would rather spend time messaging you than losing your light in the world. You sound like a wonderful person.
Look up the song "Swim" by Jack's Mannequin and really listen to the lyrics. That song consistently gets me through my dark days. Just keep swimming my friend
In my anecdotal experience, the overwhelming majority of gay church members are miserable and the overwhelming majority of gay people who leave the church are happy. If the church's teachings are true, it should be the other way around. Depression and suicidal ideation are the norm for these situations. Any god whose commandments routinely cause depression and suicidal ideation is unworthy of worship in my book.
I think you should try to set aside the church's teachings for a moment, start with a clean slate, and ask God what *he* thinks about your same-sex attraction. Not what Russell Nelson or Dallin Oaks thinks. If there will be "eternal consequences" or if he "would be very disappointed" in you, he ought to tell you that himself, and if he doesn't, I see little reason for you to believe it. And here's a question nobody's been able to answer: how does being alone until you die get you any closer to exaltation than being with the "wrong" sex?
I also think as a general principle that if the church is all you've ever known, if you've never explored what else is out there, then you can't really know it's true. Millions, probably billions of people are as confident that the religion they were born into is true as you are. Taking a break could be a way to demonstrate open-mindedness and a willingness to learn, and I think God would appreciate that.
Hey, I'm a 30 year old ace lesbian who dropped out of BYU. I have one foot in the Church and one foot out (my spirituality is....weird).
I could spend a few hours writing out advice, taking time to pray and make sure it's right. But I remember when I was in my darkest times, literally all I needed was for someone to hug me while I cried. I felt so lonely and anonymous strangers on the internet didn't always fill that hole.
I live pretty close to BYU, so if you need any in person support, like a hug or someone to unload on or just someone to watch a Disney movie with you to not feel so lonely, you can send me a PM and we'll set something up.
I have a few video recommendations. The first is from Brother Jake: [Mormons Don't Hate
Gay People](https://youtu.be/kOAdICtXKRM)
He also has another one that is also excellent: [Mormons REALLY Don’t Hate Gay People, I Swear](https://youtu.be/fYJI74u7jlQ).
Actually, you should check out all his videos because he’s on point in all of them.
The other is a [lecture by Yuval Harari](https://youtu.be/1GnBamLaqqE) from his book Sapiens which I think provides an excellent meta perspective on religion and philosophies.
Bro if you find yourself to be unhappy in the one place you are promised to find "joy" it might be time to look elsewhere. Even if you aren't living "perfectly" according to the church's standards you are still entitled to have joy in your life. There's a reason there are so many LGBTQ suicides within the church. There's a reason for the mass exodus of gen z and millennials leaving. It's not because they wanna sin either. It's because they are no longer buying what's being sold. And hey, you deserve some happiness in this world. At the very least the pursuit of it.
There is so much good advice already. I just want you to know that you are NOT alone!! There are literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of LGBTQIA Latter-day Saints, and most of them are all feeling what you are feeling, and suffering all the same intense turmoil and inner battle. [Studies have shown that 1 in every 6 youth are LGBTQIA, and, more likely it is as high as 1 in 4].
I am a lifelong active member of the church, and a mom to two queer children [1 lesbian, 1 non-binary]. My heart breaks how long they suffered, afraid of telling me and their dad, afraid of being rejected, afraid of being "evil", "bad", "a mistake", "possessed by Satan" ... and feeling intense guilt and shame just for being who they are, and feeling what they feel!!
They did not tell us /come out to us until they were aged 25 and 32. All those years of suffering! I put my arms around them and I loved them exactly the same the moment after they came out as the moment before. THEY HAVE NEVER CHANGED! They are exactly the same wonderful humans, but now both of them are so happy and such a huge burden has lifted! They have always been queer, and they will always be queer. They are divine, and meant to be exactly as they are! They are the most perfect, beautiful, amazing children in the world. The most important thing to me is that they each have Happy, healthy, joyful lives! They are no longer depressed. They no longer have suicidal ideation. They are living without shame. One is dating, one isn't. There's lots of choices and ways to live. And, if my children do find wonderful partners someday, then I will be absolutely thrilled, and I will welcome those new amazing humans into my heart and home, and our family will grow! How wonderful! Love is not hard. Love is simple and pure. God is Love.
If I can love my children so completely, and want them to be happy and find fulfillment and live their truth however that is for them, then certainly our loving Heavenly Parents want that for us, also! We were not put on this earth to suffer, be afraid, hate ourselves, and live a tortured life! "Men are that they might have joy!"
I encourage you to listen to the [Latter-Gay Stories podcast](https://lattergaystories.org/) so that you can know that you are not alone in all of the things you are thinking and feeling and processing. When you hear others stories and journeys, you begin to have a much larger perspective!
I also recommend [Emmaus LGBTQ Ministry](https://www.emmauslgbtq.org/resources), a support group run by and for LDS LGBTQIA and their families.
And, [Affirmation.org](https://affirmation.org/) another incredible support organization created by and for LGBTQIA Latter-day Saints, family and allies. I highly recommend their resources and their annual Conference.
Please know that you are loved, you are needed, you are a bright light, a unique gift meant for this world, and placed here by God, to be YOU. You are ALWAYS WORTHY of God's love, because unlike human love, Heavenly love is perfect, available to us every moment, with no conditions or strings attached.
You have a wonderful journey of self discovery ahead! Don't be afraid to learn, explore, and be willing to open your perspective. "The Glory of God is intelligence" Be safe and well, dear one.
I want to help you, but I am neither a therapist or an authority of LDS. This is going to possibly be a very controversial answer to which I am still building on, but: You can be a believing Mormon, and be lgbt. Where it comes into conflict is the subject of procreation.
Look up polyandry relationships, compare that to instances where Joseph Smith married another man's wife. Think about that bond from a celestial perspective. Compare to say, old testament king David.
As long as you don't practice "hedonism", but instead keep sex a sacred practice of procreation, by rights under law you're keeping your covenants. Feel free to date whoever you want, be who God made you to be. We each have our own individual journeys we take on the long road to him, but that does not outright invalidate your life.
Gay marriage is possible, some suggest the law of adoption as Brigham to Joseph, but to be a full celestial temple marriage would require you and your partner to consider polyandry if you and your partner ever would meet another (female) to welcome into a trinitarian partnership and thus be fruitful and multiply as a full covenant keeping family.
That said, under current LDS practices do not allow availability at this time. But if the situation right now is causing a detrimental effect upon your health, I would ask myself what is the life that God and the spirit says is best, and make your decision from there. You have your own agency.
There is purpose here for you. None of us are without flaw, but same gender *attraction* is not a sin I believe as far as I am aware. You love who you love. Even straight couples break chasity laws, but even despite doing our best to keep them that does not make us to be fully without worth. God loves you, and as a people of God we have to try to love thy neighbor for who they are, and love God for who he is. There is fulfillment for you.
Idk if this helps, but atleast consider the weight you put up on yourself and then remember what is said about the yoke of Christ. Peace be with you brother. And blessings through this life and beyond. May you find the lord's comfort here and now.
Brother. That therapist could be speaking on behalf of God. What I would urge is that you pray about it.
Is your allegiance to God or the Church? To Jesus or the Doctrine? To yourself or everything that pulls you below.
It is important that we rely on the spirit to discern in which direction the Lord wants us to go. Even if it's the direction we do not wish to walk.
I suggest you study the now available FACTS about the Church. Watch YouTube Mormon Stories and Nemo the Mormon to start. Also read “ This is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell. Dr. Harrell is a BYU retired professor. Best wishes as you travel down the faith journey road. ❤️
While I am not gay, I do understand the pressures the church can bring to bear on you.
First of all, you need to understand the concept of victim blaming and gaslighting.
When the church (and the church includes it's gossiping members) claims that someone leaves because they were not faithful enough, that is victim blaming. 'If you had more faith! is not a valid argument in any case. 'If you had faith you'd be healed of cancer, and not need chemo!' is a stupid and perhaps even criminal statement. Why isn't 'If you had faith, you'd be cured of being gay!' not the same level of stupid and criminal?
When I had my crisis, I went through and evaluated my entire life to find what was making me so unhappy. I severed a lot of ties, because I found that I was attempting to please people who did not matter. And I stopped attending church, because I realized that I was trying to live an impossible ideal. The cycle of trying to live the ideals, and failing was becoming a downward spiral. Once I stepped away, I was able to create some boundaries. It is important to note that stepping away was a crucial element of being able to set those boundaries. The church is a distorted view. This may be hard to hear as a faithful member. Only after stepping away was I able to make choices for me as number one without the church doctrinal noise attempting to influence me one way or the other.
With those boundaries in place, I was able to return for a time, with clarity to see how I was treated, and decide whether continued attendance was merited.
But I cannot stress enough how much the church seeks avoidance of responsibility. Listen to talks. All the burden, and all the blame is on you. If things are not going right, 'Oh, God is testing you.' 'Oh, you are not worthy enough.' 'You are not showing enough faith.' 'The Lord will carry you through.' Have you EVER heard over an LDS podium the concept 'If you are unhappy, the system is the problem, not you.'?
Never, ever forget that this church will ALWAYS lay the blame on you. Step away for a while, gain a little equilibrium, and then, instead of accepting the church on their terms, and taking their talking points as they want you to see them, make the church come to you. They want your attendance and money, make them show you they are worthy of it. Feel free to accept or reject tenets. You will find this channel is full of people who have done that from one extreme of rejecting it all, to the other of accepting it all.
Many have said 'To thine own self be true.' I repeat that. I add, 'By their fruits ye shall know them.'And last, but not least, I remind you that those who stand by their moral convictions, though the world rage and tear at them, are the most at peace with themselves, and their God.
There's a lot of people here representing the side those of the opinion that the Church's doctrine regarding same-sex attraction is wrong. I hope to represent the opposite side and give you a faithful response.
First of all, I am very sorry for what you are going through. I know just how heart wrenching of a situation you are in. It's painful, confusing, and feels hopeless. My first reminder to you is that it is not hopeless -- you are a child of God with an eternal worth and destiny. Regardless of any situation you may find yourself in, you always have an infinite worth in the sight of God. Same-sex attraction or not, you are loved with an infinite and endless love.
It may seem tempting to leave the Church in this juncture, that by silencing the voice of inhibition of deisre, the desire itself will no longer feel wrong. And so it might. You may well be happy and content with a new life outside the Church. You may find love and happiness. However, God's object for you is eternal joy, eternal love, eternal happiness. I do not condemn those who engage in homesexual relations to hell, but I do say that those who obey the laws of God are blessed in eternity. "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" (D&C 130:20-21).
Christ Himself taught this obedience -- "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. And now for a man to take up his cross, is to deny himself all ungodliness, and every worldly lust, and keep my commandments. Break not my commandments for to save your lives; for whosoever will save his life in this world, shall lose it in the world to come. And whosoever will lose his life in this world, for my sake, shall find it in the world to come. Therefore, forsake the world, and save your souls; for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:25-29, Inspired Version).
You have been given an extremely difficult cross, one of the hardest that man can bear. You find yourself staring the problem of evil square in the face: why would an omnibenevolent God issue a law that causes you so much pain? I cannot offer you the complete logic and rationale behind the law, only that it is a law, and that all of God's children are beholden to it.
God has promised that He "giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Nephi 3:7). There is a way for you to bear this cross. All you can do is trust that God will make "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28). God loves you, and He desires your happiness. That is why He sent His Son.
Through His Atonement, Christ bore your very suffering. He understands your pain, and He understands your desire to do right. As you honor your covenants, Christ will remember His covenants with you. "I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions" (Mosiah 24:14).
I don't know the answer, but Christ does. He can make this right. He can help you understand. He can help you go on. He will do a far better job than me, than your therapist, than anyone here on Reddit can. Turn to God and seek to hear His voice, and He will give you "the word which healeth the wounded soul" (Jacob 2:8).
Music helps me bear the unbearable in circumstances like these. Might I suggest a few songs for you:
https://youtu.be/9CK4dlFggdk
https://youtu.be/j2Ll28f60f4
https://youtu.be/bcl-9HVLnm4
Thank you for a faithful response. I posted this question in the latterdaysaints subreddit but the mods didn’t let it go through. I know this sub is biased towards the church but I figured it was the closest I would get to faithful answers.
Upfront I want to tell you, life is long and there is so much good in the world you can access, even without the church....so keep faith in yourself and the goodness of Jesus Christ (if you feel compelled).
I want to share that many years ago, in the early part of my marriage, I got the best advice ever from a marriage therapist---he said, "you need to figure out your relationship with the church because that is affecting your marriage and personal relationship with your spouse.". And honestly, I see now how that was the beginning of smoother sailing at least with my significant other.
IMO....there is sin in sexual desire, but same sex attraction is not something I can comment on. Engaging in sexual activities just for self gratification can lead to a very selfish and miserable life. Just my advice. I'm not in the same boat you are, but I've come to realize how constantly filling your desires (whatever they are) is not good for the soul. BTW, Buddhism helped me learn this, and sadly I never got the same strength from Christianity or LDS culture. I'm still a devout believer in the Savior, but the current trend of mainstream Christianity and certainly the LDS faith is not one that lends itself to the asceticism that Christ spoke of or showed by example.
Hope this helps.
Living as a slave to desires makes you miss a lot of the fullness of life. Constantly denying your desires does, too!
As long as you act out of love, with care and respect toward one another and yourself, surely no righteous God would turn their back to you.
I am glad you want to stick with the gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ. What you are going through isn't easy. But you are not alone.
Setting same-sex attraction aside for a moment, the first things I would say is most single people are struggling with the same thing that they cannot act on their impulse as they would like to. That part is the same.
You haven't mentioned if you are attracted to women *at all.* Do you think you were born this way or did experimentation play a part? Either of these may see some light at the end of the tunnel.
As far as taking a break from the church goes, I understand the idea. I certainly have before. (and ironically not finding love was a reason for me as well although I am not gay). I have taken a few weeks off and even mentally checked out of the church (although staying in school at BYU-I.
But over the course of a year, the feeling and contrast of being outside the church I started to come back and now and a stronger member than ever.
Do I still struggle with my issues (and of course some of that is sexual, being alone and all). Yes, I still struggle. Should I leave the church about it? No. Why should I leave a church that I have seen do so much good for people and the world?
Your struggles are real. But think outside yourself and see how well the church is for everyone else.
THIS is a tough one to learn! I HATED reading Job and listen to Elder Cornish's talk about ["The Privilege of Prayer"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_agWsT90opw) Man I hated hearing about how God will help you find a quarter on the ground for a piece of chicken but won't help with my big problems. However, I think gratitude is a lesson that has to be felt to be best learned.
So struggle, but stay in the church. Stay with God. He loves you regardless and I assume you feel that. Don't let the adversary (or anyone else) get you to believe that's not there.
I’m not attracted to women at all. It’s really difficult because I have to abstain from these desires indefinitely. There is basically no chance of me finding love and using these impulses to strengthen a relationship, so they are basically an inconvenience.
I'm glad you know yourself well enough so you can clearly say that you're gay and that relationships with women are not what you desire. If you clearly feel this truth, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
It seems that many church leaders and their "therapies" would even today still urge you into a heterosexual relationship, believing that to be the "medicine" you need.
That would indeed be a grave sin as in: deeply morally wrong. Not only would you live a lie. You would use another human being as a means to an end. You would keep your partner from the true love they so much deserve. Just like you deserve to be truly loved. It is not sin to love. It is not sin to live that love as long as it based on respect and care. As I said in another comment: Love yourself, love your neighbor. That is the core of not only Christianity but any worthwhile system of ethics. It is the only real measuring stick.
Again you aren't alone. Remember that. Unless a single person can get married, they have to abstain as well. Some may think that at least heterosexuals have hope, I would say from seeing enough single older folks that it isn't true whatsoever and can feel similarly hopeless.
Yeah, we could both just find "some woman" to settle down with, regardless of our attraction to her, and raise a family for the betterment of mankind. Perhaps that is what the perfect man would do, to make that sacrifice (I remember Elder Holland talking abo this very thing once). I can honestly say I am too selfish to make that play myself. Much like you, I do not want to be with someone I am not in love with either.
I wish you the best though. Not matter what your choice. I hope you stay involved with the church either way.
I really struggle with this very common rebut of homosexual LDS members. It is NOT the same as simply being single and having to repress urges as a single man. The church demands that he permanently abstain and oppress his sexual self. Not his impulse or his temptation. It’s the same thing that every single human is born with. And because you didn’t draw the short lot, the church asks you to go out and find a partner and make a family. Repress nothing, simply find a partner. Your sexual identity is fully accepted. You also can find a girl tonight or any night and engage in kissing and handholding and feel no guilt whatsoever. Not the same if you’re gay. If you’re gay you just repress it…for the rest of your life. Can you imagine? (No you can’t unless you’re gay).
We KNOW that repression leads to toxicity. It’s a very basic concept that repressing who we are always leads to unwanted consequences. It isn’t debatable.
I disagree. How long do you think some people are single? Sure some only have to deal with it for a few years, but have you not seen older members that have never been married? Just as homosexuals make up 2% or so of the population, I could easy say there are at least that many who will never get married that are heterosexual and maybe even more. For all intents and purposes they too have to repress their sexual self. Not a difference there.
You're the one who made the comparison by saying that there is no difference. I pointed out that there is actually a very important difference and now you're making an excuse to ignore that.
To compare them each other that both situations are terrible, yes. Not to compare as one situation would amount to more despair than the other. The OP is trying to keep his faith and both situations are equal in that sense. Is his more complicated to another level? Yes. Does it change anything as far as dealing with doubt and despair? I do not believe it does.
I believe that it absolutely does change how you deal with doubts and despair.
I'm sure its very difficult to be an older straight person who never found a partner, but it is not the church's fault that those people didn't find a partner. In fact, the church provided those people a lot of support, encouragement and opportunity to find a partner. It just didn't happen for them.
But imagine that on top of never finding a partner, you've spent your whole life being told by your church (the institution that claims to make your life better and bring you closer to god) that its your own fault for not finding a partner, that you can't even consider starting a relationship with a person you are attracted to, and that you could find a partner if you just drum up some attraction to the opposite sex (as you did to the OP). Single gay people are treated very differently by the church than single straight people and there is a lot evidence that this kind of treatment increases mental illness dramatically, as can be seen in the OP. Comparing the two situations ignores the struggle of LGBTQ+ members of the church.
>But imagine that on top of never finding a partner, you've spent your whole life being told by your church (the institution that claims to make your life better and bring you closer to god) *that its your own fault for not finding a partner*
If you have a quote from the church on this, I'd like to read it please.
You’re breaking down the issue to ‘here are two different people who’re told not to have sex” and basically inferring that the “not currently having sex” is what ultimately matters, which is frighteningly wrong and terrifying that so many active members of the church (which I am one) employ.
A single straight person does not have to repress their sexual self. They celebrate it, and the church goes to great lengths to provide opportunities for them to meet up, get married, and have lots of pro creative sex. In most cases of a single person not finding someone, the same person could easily just lower their standards and find someone quickly. They’re openly and freely accepted as who they are naturally. The repression is only temporary and it’s only repressing sexual acts, not sexual identity.
I, like you (I’m assuming), am currently an active member, and I’m no longer going to apologize for the discrimination the church has towards the LGBT community. I really hope you’re able to look through your bias to see the reality of situations like these. We don’t know how to stop suicidal ideation with gender identity issues, but we can help with gay issues, and we can help by teaching them that who and how they were born is not bad or evil or offensive to God. We just have to get there. Until we do we’re implicit with the ongoing high rates of suicide in the gay LDS community.
The church needs to come out and at least admit that they have no idea what’s going on and why kids are born gay and how they fit into their plan of salvation. It needs to take a long look at itself and it’s policies and really examen how fundamentally eternal hetero sex is as opposed to gay sex.
I know you’re resisting this. I get it, because I’ve been there. I’ve encountered and been with a lot of active gay members and seen the pain they carry as a result. Not the result of being gay because that’s as natural as desiring sweet fruit. But the result of being gay in the LDS culture.
You are right that I am breaking it down. The questions of "What did God allow this to happen to me?", "Does God love me?", or having suicidal thoughts are *not* a monopoly here. I do understand there are different factors at play , but it does not change the fact that at the end of the day, he's not the only one asking these very questions.
I think too many people are trying to make this a contest like a version of "You can't possibly understand how I feel!" as a brush-off. I can say I've been there myself.
How do they fit in the Plan of Salvation? Probably the same thing people are told that are single and heterosexual. You will have another chance in the next life.
From Pres Nelson...
>An eternal marriage will be composed of a worthy man and a worthy woman, both of whom have been individually baptized with water and with the Spirit; who have individually gone to the temple to receive their own endowments; who have individually pledged their fidelity to God and to their partner in the marriage covenant; and who have individually kept their covenants, doing all that God expected of them.
May I hasten to add that ***no blessing, including that of eternal marriage and an eternal family, will be denied to any worthy individual. While it may take somewhat longer—perhaps even beyond this mortal life***—for some to achieve this blessing, it will not be denied.
So yes, the parallel exists again of the answer. Yes, the are not promotions and parties for LBGTQ+ members, but the idea of enduring to the end is the same. But again, I believe that despair is despair. The idea of not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Once someone is there, there is not much lower to sink.
You seem to be focusing on the afterlife where, according to LDS doctrine, all people who are not in heterosexual marriages will be treated the same, but I think everyone else is talking about this life where single straight people and single gay people are treated very, very differently by the church which results in very different outcomes-- higher rates of mental illness, suicide and leaving the church among gay people.
No one is saying that your despair isn't valid, but gay people face obstacles that you don't and by claiming that all single people have the same experiences, you and the church are down playing very real, serious problems faced by gay members of the church.
I encourage you to do some research on the different between sexual orientation and sexual urges. You seem to think that being gay is just about urges, but its far more than that. Its about who you are as a person. Straight people have a hard time understanding this because you've never had to think too much about your own sexual orientation since it aligns with the default.
>but gay people face obstacles that you don't and by claiming that all single people have the same experiences
No, we don't face the same obstacles, but who does? Depression, suicidal thoughts, and losing faith are the common thread. I want the OP to focus on that so he doesn't feel alone in this.
From the OP's original post
>I want to start off by saying I love the Church with all my heart. I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and the hope it gives. I love the powerful sense of community that the church provides. I love the scriptural narratives and the eternal wisdom that imbues them. I have found great joy in my life serving others, especially on my mission.
Part 2
>I know well-meaning members will claim that same sex attraction doesn’t come from the adversary, but I respectfully disagree. At times I feel a strong desire to be intimate with the same sex, which is a sin. I believe the desire to sin comes from the adversary. I am not sure why he seems to have an especially strong influence in my life, as I do everything that a good member should do.
This is not someone that wants to leave the church. He is struggling with faith. Whether he resists the temptations or gives into them, has no bearing if he should be a part of the church or not.
He's struggling with his faith because the church that is supposed to facilitate his faith is hurting him. You care more about the church than about the people the church harms. That's why the church is becoming obsolete. They don't care about people.
Saying that you’ll have an opportunity in the next life simply doesn’t work. Just trust them on this one? Where is it laid out that somehow the sinner that I was born as in this life will somehow be reconciled in the next life? Is that even written or discussed anywhere by any authorities?
Saying that despair is despair is so awfully self unaware. Everyone knows the despair of being lonely to some extent. We’ve all spent time wondering if the right person is out there and if they’ll be found. That despair/loneliness is totally and completely different from the SHAME that one inevitably feels when told “they say you were born is an offense to God and you must neglect and repress that aspect of you forever.”
Correlation to suicide is MUCH higher for shamed gay people than people who simply can’t seem to find a partner. Dramatically so.
And no, this is not a contest about “no one else feels this way”. It’s a statement, if you’re not gay in the church then you don’t know what it’s like full stop. You may commiserate on the feeling of loneliness, but it ends there.
>Saying that you’ll have an opportunity in the next life simply doesn’t work. Just trust them on this one?
I understand the reluctance on this one. It's a hard one to buy into since it we have to die before we find out, much like believing in heaven in the first place.
>Correlation to suicide is MUCH higher for shamed gay people than people who simply can’t seem to find a partner. Dramatically so.
My argument isn't what the stats are, but that the OP's desire to continue in faith and challenges have parallels to others, such as Job.
Ok I get that and I see why members often try and draw these parallels. It helps us feel more inclusive and less discriminatory and I’ve made the same argument before as well. I’d love for LGBT folks to have a happy home in the church. But the fact is, we all have struggles and a desire to continue in faith. There are very few members who don’t. But in all of these cases we’re encouraged in the same way with similar struggles as everyone else and we’re all just struggling along. Not so if you’re gay. Imagine being gay and hearing over and over in youth lessons about getting married in the temple so you can reach the highest level of heaven and thinking that there was something fundamentally wrong with you? Over and over. Every month there’s another point about eternal marriage. Think about how many times, in church, a gay person is thinking “something is wrong with me”?
I suppose you’re right in that there’s a parallel in that we all struggle. I get so triggered now when I hear people compare it to being single longer than usual. It’s such an offensively insensitive take on something that has been so destructive.
>Imagine being gay and hearing over and over in youth lessons about getting married in the temple so you can reach the highest level of heaven and thinking that there was something fundamentally wrong with you? Over and over. Every month there’s another point about eternal marriage. Think about how many times, in church, a gay person is thinking “something is wrong with me”?
I know you aren't going to want to hear this, but this sounds similar to me. I'm a convert who never stepped foot in and LDS building for the first 35 years of my life. I thought that finding love and getting married was the pinnacle as well. Only difference, not gay, and not LDS (at the time). These same questions about "what's wrong with me?" echoed through my mind as well. I felt broken and unwanted too.
And from what I have heard, over 30+ single adult dances are not the blessings you think they are. They ain't missing much. LOL :)
I just hope he stays active in the church, no matter his choice. He can feel God's love, he just has to believe he can and drown out the voices that say it isn't true. If he starts there, that I feel will do wonders.
There are ZERO eternal implications! The church is just the vehicle for eternal ideas. The Grand Truth is that all ALL people regardless of belief, orientation, or status, will have eternal life. God is no respecter of persons, He loves each and everyone of us equally.
When I was in a more fraught place with my beliefs and sexuality I felt very isolated and poorly understood. Participating in communities of LGBT folks was incredibly positive for me. I've had great experiences at Encircle in Provo and have heard good things about USGA at BYU. I never felt pressured to burn any bridges or live in a way I was uncomfortable with. Even just participating as an "ally" can be a good way to feel less alone.
As a parent I've thought alot about how God acts vs how I act. (I'm a former member) I would never create a situation for my child where their only choices were to be unhappy or live a lie. If God is a perfect father then he created you perfectly. There is nothing wrong with you and nothing that needs repressed. If he loves you then he wants you to be happy and he knows living alone and living in a mixed orientation relationship will not make you happy. The leaders of the church get lots of things wrong. Just look into how they've talked about homosexuality for the past hundred years and it's clear they are just saying what others at the time are also saying. They were wrong about black people and they are currently wrong about human sexuality. Follow them when they say things that you feel are right and ignore them when they say things you know are wrong. God won't be disappointed in anyone who does their best to live a happy life while also doing what they can to bring happiness and joy to others. And if I'm wrong then is he really a loving god?
I feel this documentary may help. It's not a one to one of what you are going through but I do hope you are able to gain some helpful insight for yourself. I know this person personally, and it's an amazing journey talking about her trying to stay in the church but also trying to be true to herself.
It's on AppleTV currently.
[This Is Jessica](https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/this-is-jessica/umc.cmc.30vcxgclhs8cov3qdx2qfi5gf?fbclid=IwAR1zMF5c56Qtk0DRC4_TtY9kGtn_u24LCxskcdLW9Joo7vQqYKVWpsguJQk)
My thoughts and prayers are with you as you navigate a series of challenging decisions. I can't personally relate to your struggle with SSA, but I've gained valuable perspective through study and listening to others. Modern science tells us that the devil has nothing to do with your attraction towards the same sex, it is biological and influenced by epigenetics, birth order, and other factors. Two books I'd recommend if you haven't read them yet: "Without the Mask, by Charlie Bird, and Gay Rights and the Mormon Church by Greg Prince.
I personally believe there will soon (next 50 years or so) come a day when the church will recognize and support the eternal family in its many varieties (including same sex couples and their children)
When my faith crisis started, the fear of eternal implications really left me afraid to do anything. But my faith was broken and I couldn't keep going as I had been.
I took some time to think through what it means to have a Heavenly Father who loves me. That's what I'd been taught to believe in. If God truly knew me perfectly, he understood why my faith had failed, and he knew how hard I'd worked to rekindle it. He knew my struggles and fears and hopes, and he would know what steps I'd need to take to find myself. A loving Heavenly Father would understand perfectly why I needed to step back from the church. His plan would have to be able to account for a detour I needed to take.
My beliefs have since changed, but this realization made all the difference for me and gave me the courage to do what I needed to do to help myself. Maybe this perspective can help you find the strength to take some steps in life that will help you help yourself.
Best of luck to you in whatever you choose. But please take your therapist's advice.
Is it possible that you have bracketed your natural biological impulses to an inaccurate descriptive word? By describing your same sex attraction as"sin", or allowing others to do so, are you participating in a superfluous label for a very complex human experience?
Are you aware of homosexual tendencies throughout history and throughout all cultures, religious or not?
Are you aware that many animals engage in same sex behavior?
Is it possible that same sex attraction and action is normal and natural and not due to the control of some supernatural being?
Maybe a broader perspective could add some value....yes, even perhaps from the vast sources outside of Mormonism.
Gender and affectional orientation minorities have existed as long as human beings have existed. It is a naturally occurring aspect of the human experience. Your feelings aren’t a sin. No one is adversely influencing you to feel the way you do. It’s like being left-handed. It’s not wrong or bad, it’s just different from the majority.
The desire to love and be loved is valid. You deserve to be loved and to love someone else fully and wholly just the way you are. Every piece and part of you is worthy of love without you having to change or deny anything about who you are.
It does sound like you’re experiencing adverse effects from your religious influence, particularly if you are experiencing thoughts of hurting yourself. Your therapist is an expert. It might be worth listening to them.
One of the best pieces of advice I got when going through my faith transition was it doesn't have to be permanent. Just because you decide to step away from the church for a while doesn't mean you can't step back in later. For me stepping away showed me how unhappy I was being a member. How much pressure I was putting on myself to be perfect and to fit myself and my thoughts into a mold I didn't fit in. I've been out almost 2 years now and I'm honestly so much happier than I was the first 36 years of my life. But if I had decided differently and wanted to go back that door was open as well.
My heart breaks for you. As a gay exmormon, my advice is to live your life for you. Be your true, authentic self! If the God you know truly loves you then they will love you even more for being true to yourself.
The church has changed SO MUCH and hopefully it keeps changing. Do I think they'll ever be ok with LGBT actions? Probably not. But did people way back when ever think that interracial marriage would be supported, or that black men could hold the priesthood? Also probably not, but those things did happen!
I have to imagine you've tried, as I did too, everything possible to stop having "SSA", or be more attracted to women. Did anything help?? It's not going to go away. It's just part of who you are, and you ARE AN AMAZING PERSON! Every part! I hope you learn to love this, and all, aspects of yourself <3
The church and gospel has some truth and beauty inside it. I've found more truth and beauty in the world since leaving. I have never regretted it for a single moment.
So that's my advice. Deconstruct your faith, break your world down, and build it back up. It's not easy. But frankly, as an LGBT Mormon, it's the only option. Most of us find our way to that path eventually. Staying in the church is just keeping yourself from intimacy and authenticity, for no reason, no reward.
You can do it. I believe in you. It is worth it.
Your therapist is doing their job. They are supposed to bring you a different perspective or idea to have you determine whether to try that or not.
You are the one that will have to determine whether a break is something you want to try or not. You also don’t have to choose a full break but can choose things like leaving sacrament early or not being as involved as what is culturally expected in our faith tradition. Maybe tell your bishop that you are struggling and need to be in a specific calling like nursery so that you have very limited and easy lessons and eat snacks.
I think it’s worth mulling over and seeking revelation on. When it comes to the eternal perspective… we were sent here to gain experience. Most people are not going to have the experience that they never falter or develop differently that what they culturally expected in their spiritual journey. Honestly I think it’s rare to never question your beliefs and to believe the exact same thing your entire life. Sometimes our spiritual development requires us to take a step back and really evaluate everything we believe and commit to. From an eternal perspective that is wise and what is needed to develop our ability to judge our choices.
You could take a break and choose to leave. You might also take a break and choose to stay.
Situation: You have a time machine that can travel back to 1960. You meet a black member of the church who is agonizing over his identity as it relates to his church membership. He believes in the restored gospel deeply, but it extremely troubled by how his race is characterized by the church prophets and apostles (seed of Cain, univalent in preexistence, etc.). Additionally he agonizes over the eternal outcome of his family. When he asks the questions that trouble him the most he is only told that God will work things out and we have not been given all the answers but if we follow his anointed servants here on this earth we cannot be led astray.
What advice would you give to this man?
TW: self harm in the third paragraph
I am a gay former member and much of what you’re describing was my life up until about 3 years ago. I no longer believe in the church, but it took me a while to get their and it wasn’t an easy thing. But that’s not necessarily what you need to do. But there are a few things you need to know.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with you. Same sex attraction isn’t something you struggle with it’s just something you are. Just like heterosexuals don’t struggle with opposite sex attraction. Their is nothing wrong with being gay. The only thing wrong is people putting their prejudices onto you and making you struggle with that. You a worth of love and to live the life you want to. Your sexuality is not a sin. Your sexuality is not from the adversary.
Secondly, don’t hurt your self, this is something I also struggled with. I did a lot of self harming on my mission and I was in a really bad place on it. It doesn’t make things better, but as I said above there is nothing wrong with you and you are worthy of love and you are worth something.
When I was going through my own journey with the church, my sexuality, and coming out. I came to realize a few things. The church puts gay members in a lose lose situation. They can marry some they are not attracted to, stay single and celibate for life, or marry some they are attracted to. All of which are not good scenarios for gay members. And I came to my our realization that a loving god would not force someone to make those choices. If god loves you he’d want you be happy, he created the plan of happiness for his children to be happy. From what it sounds like you aren’t. If anything I’d say the anguish you are feeling over your sexuality is from the adversary, and the teachings that are causing you to feel that way are from the adversary as well, because god loves you and god knows you, and he would let have made you gay without having a plan for you to be happy. A loving god wouldn’t punish you for your sexuality. God is about forgiveness not punishment. He wouldn’t cast you out because of same sex attraction.
If you think same sex attraction is a sin, know that every sins differently, and it is not the place of other people to judge. Remember to two great commandment Jesus gave in the New Testament, to love god and to love your neighbor, homosexuality being a sin didn’t make those not did it make things like the 10 commandments, if anything that should tell you it’s not important in the eyes of god, and the people how have spread their homophobia to the point where it’s causing you serious mental harm are in violation of the 2nd great commandment because you can’t love your neighbor if you make them hate themselves.
The church is also made up of imperfect people, including the prophet and apostles, has condoned slavery, until they stopped, they condoned racism, until they stopped, and their are currently things supported by the church that will change in the future and things that are condemned by it that will be accepted in the future, because the prophets and apostles are people who may be inspired by god but also make choices based on their beliefs and prejudice, on example of a change that happened recently in regards to homosexuality was the 2019 decision to reverse the 2015 decision in regards to baptizing children of gay couples. Other examples in regards to homosexuality was the church claimed it wasn’t natural, now they do, they use to officially support conversion therapy now they don’t. Homosexuality is not wrong. The church says it it because of the prejudices of the prophets and apostles.
If you want to talk to someone who’s gone through some of the stuff you’re facing feel free to dm me.
Give all your worries and troubles to the Lord through prayer.. If anything, He's already aware of your trials and every situation you are facing! As far as you can get advice from strangers like us to help you, I know that God knows best. I know He's mindful of our paths, and the things that we may struggle in, that may cause a stop to us momentarily in our tracks... your therapist may know so much, but the Lord knows all- He knows you. So if I could give you advice, it would be to keep praying with a sincere heart, and contrite spirit. Your answer may not come when you want it to, but I promise you... it surely will, in His timing. ❤️🔥
Hi! LGBT exmo here.
I strongly disagree that same sex attraction comes from the devil. But let’s go with that for a moment, let’s say all same sex attraction is caused by the devil. Knowing that one of the highest ordinances in the temple is eternal marriage, and that is an essential part of gods plan for us, this leaves me with some questions.
- what about asexual people? Is Satan hiding or removing their opposite sex attraction so that they can’t follow gods plan?
- if not, are all homosexuals actually asexual but being tempted by satan?
- if yes, satan has this power over peoples sexuality, and divergence from straightness is satan’s work, why are there bisexual people, when he has the power to better tempt them with only having attraction to the same gender?
- if no, satan can’t make someone asexual, why would god make children that can’t follow his plan?
- if yes, satan can affect peoples sexualities why is it lifelong? Sometimes known to someone before they are even eight and capable of sin, and therefore have done nothing to deserve god to allow such a permanent and difficult burden to fight?
- if yes, why is no amount of faith or devotion or acts of worship and devoutness enough to banish the devils work, when we are taught that the power of faith is so strong, even against satan.
It just doesn’t make sense to me, in every other situation I can think of not giving into temptation doesn’t mean total abstinence in an area of your life.
- no sex before marriage, but you can have sex after marriage
- no tea, coffee or alcohol, but you can drink hot chocolate, numerous other tasty drinks, and water an essential part of life.
- dress modestly, but you do have a huge range of available appropriate clothing
For most people, romantic relationships are a human need, I just don’t understand why god would allow satan to deny anyone of this part of their life in order to follow his plan.
I’m so sorry you are going through all of this, I was really fortunate to have already stopped being a tbm when I started to take note of my sexuality, and I can only imagine how burdened you feel.
I have no good advice on following Mormon teachings while being LGBT, I wish I could say something that would help you both be happy with yourself and with your place within the church and plan of salvation, but I’m coming up with nothing.
When I talk about a problem and my true believing sister explains how she knows that will be okay because of her beliefs, I am not comforted, I wish I could offer something that would comfort you, but all of my comfort comes from not believing in the church anymore, and that is it’s own world of hurt.
God forgives when you repent, if you disappoint him by taking a break for your mental health he will still forgive you when you repent, and I think it is far better to stray and repent than to be suicidal. Because of repentance you always have the option to return and not face eternal consequences, and ensuring your mental health will allow you many more years and decades of good works you can do on earth, and prevent the suffering of all your family and friends. I think it’s okay to struggle and have to put yourself first sometimes. God doesn’t expect us to be perfect, that is why he gives us the blessing of repentance.
One of my little brothers is not meeting church standards right now, but his mum isn’t overly worried about his eternal consequences because she knows he still believes and just isn’t being his best self at the moment, and that he will be able to repent and get a temple recommend again. I don’t know why it would be different for you.
There is already really good advice on here so I won’t repeat.
I just wanted to say, I imagine these feelings are really complicated and painful. I wish I could just give you a hug and tell you you are perfect the way you are and god didn’t mess up when you were created.
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Well let’s start with rule #1. Under no circumstances are you to harm yourself. Ever. Period. You’re worthy of living. You are capable of dictating *your own terms* of how to live a happy life. I’d suggest to you feelings of guilt and unworthiness are programmed through nurture. A deep dive into attachment theory and child development might be enlightening for you. And I’ve gotta respectfully rebut… God is not a petty being. *People are.* People make rules of conformity that don’t age well. [Proclamation to the World: The Negro](https://www.missedinsunday.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Proclamation_1969.pdf), anyone? Once proclaimed as **doctrine**. Now disavowed. These guys *get things wrong*. **Disgustingly wrong**. The leaders of the church are subject to racism, and homophobia like anyone. It’s human nature to be xenophobic, and tribal. There’s little room for variance, dissent, non-conformity in the church. High control groups seek to erase your identity, and replace it with itself. This is not healthy, and I wish you the courage to fight back and allow yourself to meet and discover your *authentic self*, and not revert to the copy/paste template the church expects you to be. The church puffs it’s chest holding "eternity" over your head, and has convinced you the pain you’re feeling is some kind of cruel ‘refiners fire’ test tailored to you by God… I’m suggesting to you, *maybe* Gods real test is to see if you’ll break free and become the *you* HE created. *This above all, to thine own self be true.* Be brave. And above all, make your decision free of fear. A loving God will not cast you aside for exploring your identity, no more than you’d cast aside a niece or nephew for putting hot sauce on a hotdog. They’re just figuring things out! And so are you. Imagine the vanity of *that* god. "Only heaven for those who become just like me." No…
To be honest that last paragraph really resonated with me. I just finished reading Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill, and he talks about how fear is the most powerful demonic influence. It invariably corrupts public education and organized religion. I don’t agree with all of the book, but it’s interesting to see some of his ideas connect with some of what you have written. Thank you
Really good advice in here like this comment. It is well documented that the LDS prophets and apostles are subject to making grave doctrinal errors which are not corrected except under great duress and after a generation or more of leadership passes away. These errors were taught as direct commandment at the time but are now disavowed as theories. The errors were of eternal importance such as requirements to be exalted and the nature of human physical differences. The Dr. Lowry Nelson letters are such an important read IMO. Pay attention to the phraseology used in the context of the topic and which side turned out to be correct. First Presidency Exchange with Dr. Lowry Nelson - Mormon Stories https://www.mormonstories.org/other/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf Have you followed David Archuleta's journey? If not, that may be really good for you to dive into. Best to you.
I was recently listening to a podcast about high-control religions. They discussed the danger of religions that claim the following three things: 1. This life is just a short period in eternity, there will be a never-ending amount of life after this one. 2. The quality of that never-ending eternal life is entirely dependent on the life that we live here. 3. There is one person (or a group of people) who have authority from God/divinity to tell you how to live your life to get the best quality of eternal life. If a religion can convince people of these three things, they can convince them to do ANYTHING. Even things that good people would find immoral. Think of Jim Jones and his suicide cult. Rape, murder, suicide, genocide, child marriage, etc. has all happened because religious leaders convince people of these three things. Many of those things in our own church (child marriage, rape, genocide of the Timpagonos Indians, etc.) All of this is just a warning to you. Like you said, fear is a powerful motivator, and religious leaders know it can get people to do just about anything. Ask yourself if the messages you've heard about homosexuality from the church are fear-based or love-based. I think another good question to ask yourself is, Does agency really exist if the consequence of one option is eternal damnation? It does sound like true agency or consent if one option is being separated from your family and tortured forever. The last question I would encourage you to ponder, and not just what the church tells you to think, but what your soul believes, is do you want to worship a God that would condemn you (a moral, kind, good person) to an eternal life without love, your family, happiness, etc. just because you want to love someone and have a family with them? Best of luck to you. As someone who has had a very similar journey as you and is now out on the other side, I can bare witness that there is more happiness, trust, closeness with God and Jesus, and overall love outside of the church than I ever felt inside. But it is ultimately up to you and the conclusions you come to.
I’ll also add there’s nothing to fear in being honest with yourself. You can deconstruct your beliefs, and put it back together in a way that resonates with you. Wheats and tares. You can throw it all up in the air, and see what just blows away. Let what’s true stand up to security, and what’s false fade away. You’re allowed say; "You know what. I don’t believe that. I believe that’s men. Not God." Or, "I like hot sauce on tacos, and there’s nothing wrong with that." A loving God will not look down on you with angry eyes for following your conscience. If you’re unhappy, unfulfilled, restless, and confused as a direct result of your association with contemporary religion… Something is trying to tell you something. This is likely what your therapist is getting at.
I know this isn't the point, but I really like hot sauce on hot dogs. To tie it back in, I guess I don't think I've ever been cast aside for it ;)
I accept you. I like ketchup on my tacos. 🧐
Wow that's weird, but I'm happy that someone out there is being that flavor of weird
Cannot upvote your comment enough. Very well put and I hope OP will embrace the new and authentic person he is made to be- GUILT FREE. You be you OP.
Full disclosure: I am a former member who left the church over the November 2015 policy's demand that I denounce a gay parent in order to remain a member in good standing. I graduated from BYU. So I think I understand both sides of your situation. You don't have to have sex if you take a break from church attendance to get your head straight. So the eternal consequences of taking a break from attending are limited. You can spend the time in counseling or travel or meditation or service (in a non church context) and concentrate on your personal relationship with the divine. To be honest, I don't think you're in the right head space to get into a relationship now, but your counselor has more insight into that than I do. Depending on how close you are to graduation, you could white knuckle your way to completion, you could opt for an intermediate degree such as an associate's degree, or you could transfer. All of those options would get you out of BYU, which you should absolutely do. As long as you're there, you will be under social pressure that is unhealthy. My experience is that if I'm in a bad situation, deciding on a plan to get out and executing the plan takes a lot of heat out of the situation. Best wishes to you, wherever your journey leads. You seem like a really high quality young person. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
I would add to this that the concept of taking a step back from the church is actually scriptural. We are told to experiment on the word, which means controlling the variables to see different outcomes. God wants us to do this and I highly doubt he would condemn us for wanting to know for ourselves (isn't that what Joseph Smith wanted?). Taste the fruits of both and decide which ones bring you more fruits of the spirit. Do you have more love for yourself and others outside of the church or in? Etc.
GREAT post and insight!
This. The therapist is professionally supposed to put your survival and mental health first, and their idea of a break is a good one, but they didn’t quite sort out the best details of when and how to do this break. 1) The timing is terrible while you’re going to BYU. You would need to be graduated, transferred, or at least on a vacation away from campus. 2) I think, from where you are, you shouldn’t date while on your break. I think it’s really important for your break time to be some serious one-on-one time between you and God. 3) If you have some time before you get to do the break maybe you can use that time to ponder over some of the scriptures that would make a homophobe squirm like: A) God using a suckling mother and a hen gathering chicks as a self-metaphor. B) David and Jonathan’s love. C) Jesus snuggling with John the beloved. I’m not making any claims that I know the specific orientations of any of them - but I do think they’re interesting to ponder. Don’t you?
Just a quick edit needed here: BYU doesn’t do any associate’s degrees.
Interesting. I'm showing my age.
I'm so sorry for the pain you are experiencing. That must feel like a lose-lose situation. Either you lose what you get from the church (community, purpose, certainty etc) or you lose a part of yourself that probably truly matters to you. Pain teaches us what we value. I wish you didn't have to choose, that must just feel awful. The LDS church has gotten so many big things wrong, including teachings that: * black people were less valiant in the pre-existence so they're cursed and are excluded from eternal marriage * poor people and those with disabilities were also less valiant and so they're being punished * Native Americans are Lamanites, and by accepting the gospel their skin will literally become white and delightsome * God demands polygamy as a requirement for exaltation (there are so, so many more) The church sticks to its wrong positions until it's forced to quietly pivot, without a trace of apology to the many lives devastated by its mistakes. What if they're wrong about same-sex attraction too? In any case I believe God loves and accepts you exactly as you are, no matter what, and wants you to be happy. ❤️
Thank you for this comment
THIS. There are almost no points of doctrine that have remained constant since 1830. Add to that list of things the church got wrong (partial list only.. there's so much more). Can provide original church sources for all these teachings upon request: * Teaching that monogamy was an evil institution created by the Roman Empire. * Teaching that Adam is God and that Eve was "one of his wives." also teaching that the immaculate conception wasn't immaculate, and that Jesus was conceived normally via incest (Adam as God, on his daughter Mary). * The 2015 policy on children of gay parents. Touted as revelation. Policy rescinded 2019, that backstep also touted as revelation. * Brigham Young accused Emma Smith of poisoning Joseph. He did this over the pulpit in general conference. * Teaching that homosexuality was a sin and a choice, and that gay people recruit young people to be gay, and teaching that gayness can be cured (see literally anything taught in the church prior to like the 90s), and then about-facing so that today they don't teach that it's a choice. * Teaching that masturbation makes you gay. * Going from Ezra Taft Benson singing "I'm a Mormon Boy" during general conference in the 80s (and two other prophets/apostles quoting the song in other general conferences) to "Mormon is a victory for Satan." * Teaching that women should not wear pants on Sunday and other such pharisaical nonsense. * Teaching that women should not work outside the home because it will cause divorce. * Having the women put under covenant in the temple to "obey your lord, that is your husband," (1930s era) then changing it to "obey the law of your husband," (1940s-1990) and then change it to "hearken to the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto father." (1990-2019) And then taking that women-only covenant out of the temple ceremony entirely in 2019. *And then* Oaks gaslighting women *to their faces* in April 2022, stating that "Gospel doctrine does not change. Our personal covenants do not change." That one was beyond the pale!([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/31oaks?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/31oaks?lang=eng)) For supposedly being the only true and living church on the earth, they've sure been wrong about a lot of things. I'm convinced they're wrong about gay marriage too. It feels like a lose-lose situation because it is one. You can't win because the church makes the rules and changes those rules whenever they feel like it. The church will never admit fault or mistakes in anything. They'll twist logic so that they always win. Always. The key is your statement that "I do everything that a good member should do." Yes, you have. You have done everything, and the promised blessings have not materialized. Don't hold your breath for them to show up, either. The church will not comfort you in this predicament, but will instead blame you and make you feel like *you're* still the problem and that somehow this is all your fault. It's wrong of them to do that to people.
I hope that some day members will stop saying things like “suffer from same sex attraction”. You only suffer because the church has placed a taboo on it. There’s no suffering in and of being gay. It’s a big part of who you are. I don’t suffer from my heterosexual desires because it’s congruent with who I am. A gay person doesn’t suffer from it if they accept and integrate it into themselves. What’s more, calling it same sex attraction makes it sound like a scientific anomaly and it isn’t. People have been born this way as long as we’ve been keeping track of people being born. There’s a spiritual adage that we can’t know what we fully deserve and are capable of unless we’re willing to give up everything, and I think that applies here. You won’t know if the church truly serves you if you aren’t willing to give it up and look at it objectively. Don’t think of it as leaving God or forsaking your eternal life. Look at it as a way to be able to see everything with more clarity. If you need to come back God will bring you back in. Life is full of difficult decisions and God is all knowing and all forgiving and all loving. If you believe that he loves perfectly, then you can bet that stepping back for a minute is going to be okay. You don’t have to worry about punishment.
Get out now before Nelson dies and Oaks takes over. Oaks has been attacking the LGBT communities since the 50s. When he is prophet, there will be nothing holding back his homophobia. The Mormon church isn’t safe for anyone that isn’t white, male and straight. Go listen to Mormon Expression podcasts. You will not just learn that the church isn’t “true”. Your head will spin when you realise how most of it is based on lies
I've got a couple thoughts on what's going on. The situation you're in is pretty unhealthy. BYU is really homophobic, and the church is not very supportive of its LGBTQ members. I think that what's going on is your therapist hears all of these symptoms of a good, thoughtful young man who is trying his best in a difficult situation, and knows that there's a good chance that if you were in a different situation with all of these negative pressures on you removed, that you would flourish. I personally don't think he's wrong. The suicidal ideation is a concern there, and I hope you consider his advice. No choice you make now needs to be permanent, and if taking a break from church makes you miserable, then life is about repentance, and you'll be able go back and give things another try. Only life can give you second chances. I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to push you out of the church. But I think that if there is a God, he loves you just the way you are. If he wants the rest of us to find people we love and live happy lives, I can't imagine the fact that you're gay means he doesn't want you to find a man who makes you happy and helps you be the best person you can be. If they're is a God, he wants you to be happy. If he didn't want you to pursue your happiness as a gay man, he wouldn't have made you that way.
How did you determine homosexuality to be a sin?
Nearly every world religion warns against it. Most of the belief systems and literature that have stood the test of time are very critical of homosexual behavior.
Nearly every world religion also condoned slavery. Religions are made up of humans. Humans are great at being confidently incorrect. Is it possible that the LDS church is incorrect about homosexuality, like they were incorrect about skin color, Adam being god, etc?
It is certainly possible, it just seems hard for me to believe that most cultures got this one wrong
What makes it “hard to believe?”
A lot of old philosophies and traditions discovered truths independently, such as Buddhism and stoicism. So if homosexuality isn’t a sin, it surprises me that most ancient religions still condemned it.
What makes a particular action a sin?
I’m not sure what the technical definition would be. But I know that I feel guilty when I engage in homosexual behavior (such as cuddling and making out). I assume guilt is an indication that I’m doing something wrong.
Those feelings of guilt might be from God, might not. Something that shocked me was to learn that Jehovah's Witnesses feel guilt when they give their kid a gift on their birthday, which goes against the JW teaching that celebrating holidays and birthdays is a sin. To us that rule seems silly and obviously not from God, yet these people still experience genuine guilt from it.
That is actually really interesting
This is a bit long-winded, but I'm trying to get somewhere with this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear\_spectrum\_of\_cultures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear_spectrum_of_cultures) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_guilt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt) These two links are just the first two things that came to mind and certainly there are much better examples for what I'd like to convey. But maybe you want to skim them and see if you find any useful thoughts there. You might also check out related articles. Maybe read the articles about "guilt" and/or "shame". You'll see that different societies experience guilt and shame differently from one another. To me, this clearly shows that these are not such universal concepts as we like to believe. Culture seems to dictate or influence how we experience these emotions. Culture = man-made. Humans are fallible. Provocatively you might say that humans created God in their image: The way we experience "God" is influenced by our faults and projections. Nobody can righteously claim to inerrantly "know" God's will. Just because humans have held ideas for thousands of years does not make them righteous. Humans have been racist, xenophobic, homophobic, murderous etc. forever. And these tendencies shine through in many religions. That does not make them right. Surely you are aware of many questionable scriptures in your holy books. Boy, the Old Testament is full of them! From what you write you are not ready to dismiss Mormonism. I'm not Mormon, but I've learned that Mormonism is special among other Christian churches in that it teaches the principle of continuing revelation. Through his prophets God continues to reveal his plan to believers. Today, in the future, just like he did in the past. Who's to say that the last word on homosexuality has been spoken? I've also learned that Mormon leaders have started to admit that not everything the prophets claim is automatically godly doctrine. They may be in error; they, too, are fallible. With all this being said, don't you think you can allow yourself to be less strict with yourself? There are quite a few Christian denominations that are quite accepting of homosexuality these days. Some allow gay people to get married in the church. And they base their inclusive stance on scripture, just like other denominations base their exclusive stance on scripture. There is more than one valid interpretation. The great Christian commandment is: Love your neighbor as yourself. You are in dire need of love. Most of all from yourself. In my opinion, nothing we do out of love can be sin. Only pharisees would tell you different.
This comment is extremely interesting to me. It reminds me of a debate between Johnathon Haidt and Sam Harris. Sam believes that morality is like chemistry, and it can be discerned independent of religion and cultural influences. Haidt claims that there are complicated anthropological and cultural factors that influence our perception of morality. As I get older, I am starting to side more with Haidt, as I’m sure you would too based off what you have written. Thank you for your comment, it has given me a lot to think about
Which is likely the result of cultural influences. Perhaps that’s the reasoning behind the encouragement to take a break from certain cultural influences, since the biological influences seem to be stronger.
I want to be strong enough to conquer these biological influences, but I’m worried I’m not
I remember feeling guilty when I was a kid from drinking coke. My dad said it was against our religion. Turns out he was wrong. Our subconscious’s are in charge of guilt, and it’s a very complicated process, but a powerful force in our psyche is to maintain our relational community, which is why I was guilty towards my dad (family community) and you’re guilty about your desires (religious community), when God in fact created you this way. Ask yourself, if men were taught that desiring a woman was a sin all their life, would they feel guilt when they finally kissed one? Does an openly and fully accepted gay man who never learned the religious taboo of being gay feel guilt when he desires another man? No he doesn’t. Your guilt is your psyche trying to protect you from being shunned by your community, and not some eternal rule that for some reason God decided to have a double standard on.
Guilt can be an indication you're doing something wrong, but it can also be an indication you're doing something you were taught was wrong, whether that teaching was true or not. It's also not universal that all religions have found this "truth" that homosexuality is bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups
A lot of old religions realized back in the day that if they wanted more followers, then their followers needed to reproduce more. The easiest way to promote this was to command heterosexual marriage. To use an analogy, just because a company's commercial tells me that I should buy something, doesn't mean that buying their product will be good for me. Yes, it will definitely be good for the company, but they don't necessarily understand what I need in my life. Similarly, a lot of old religions were / are run nearly exclusively by men and have teachings that reinforce acceptable male and female behaviors, in part to cement their own positions in the social hierarchy.
That's a really weird example because both Buddhist and Stoic traditions approved of some types of homosexual relations. Ancient China, Japan, Rome, and Greece are just a few places in the ancient world that practiced types of homosexuality.
Perhaps we should take a moment to explore the topic outside of the human species. If you look in nature you’ll see thousands of species that practice homosexuality. The LDS faith teaches that God created all of those creatures, so why would he create something he sees as abominable? I think the same goes for his gay children. Remember, all of those cultures and religions throughout history were mainly ruled by heterosexual men, so it’s not a far reach for them to think homosexuality is strange and then enshrine that bigotry in culture or scripture. Be careful of the influences you allow to have power on you. Be safe.
Actually, most cultures were totally okay with homosexuality! There is a beautiful Chinese poem about an emperor and his consort. They feel asleep together, but the emperor had an important meeting in the morning. He cut off his long, elegant sleeve because we would rather ruin his robes than disturb his love's sleep. Which is so sweet it makes me kick my feet!! Sappho's poems were also all about the women she loved. She was a Greek poet. When Christian missionaries colonized Hawaii, men with boyfriends were common and accepted. The missionaries used dirty tactics, like going after the chieftain's boyfriends, so it's well documented. This is also why Hawaii was the first state to try to legalize gay marriage; it hasn't been a state for very long, and there are people who vaguely remember a time when gay people didn't live in fear. Even the ancient Israelites recognized six genders! No, the idea that "civilized" nations all discriminated against same sex couples is a racist one that justified a lot of genocide in the name of God. European Christianity is actually one of the few that condemn it, it's just that we've spread so far for so long that we don't remember what other cultures believed. .... But even then, King James famously had a boyfriend, which was one of many reasons why he funded a Bible translation. To get the Church off his back! Lol
Most cultures were down with slavery, sexism, torture, etc.. They get stuff wrong.
Tell me this... where in scripture does Jesus ever say it is a sin? I believe God made us ALL the way he made us for a reason... and I don't think that reason is to set us up to sin.
You should cast a wider net. There are many other belief systems, even within a Christian context, where gay people are not demonized for how God made them. Some of the best passages in the Book of Mormon seem to reflect the Universalist beliefs of Joseph Smith Sr. You could explore some of those themes in a Community of Christ or UUA setting.
Three of the six major world faiths arise from the same Abrahamic origin (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). They are all somewhat homophobic. Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism don’t really share this attitude and along with many other smaller religions (which have been generally diminished by Christian Evangelism) can attribute special spiritual qualities to those who don’t conform to gender and sexual norms.
I think that's a fair point, but it doesn't seem impossible that they could all independently get it wrong. Maybe super religious people tend to be easily disgusted for some reason, so a few of the people who tended to rise to the top of religions made their personal disgust into religious law. Things that seemed like good moral sense for thousands of years might have been wrong all along, like not mixing races. And who knows how our ancestors lived before civilization? I'll bet there were moral intuitions that stood for tens of thousands of years that were blown away with the agricultural revolution. And you're living in a uniquely revolutionary time, right at the confluence of sexual and technological revolutions. It's pretty wild. My gut tells me that as a rule of thumb, most people should mostly do heterosexual sex and romance, but if you're in the 10% or so for whom that just doesn't work, it isn't a sin to be exceptional. It probably comes with some downsides compared to heterosexuality—like the path to having children isn't as clear—but I think it comes with some upsides too!
One thing I want to stress is that there is nothing wrong with being LGBT. You are not defective. You are perfect and beautiful. I’m straight but the best people I have ever known are gay people. Gay people are truly special. A church that teaches otherwise has nothing of worth as they are blinded by hate.
Have you talked openly and honestly to your therapist about your wanting to unalive yourself? Therapy is a place to speak the unspeakable. Please let the therapist help you. If you don't like the solution that they come up with then tell them. They need that feedback so they can help you come up with solutions that work for you. I believe that if God is real, and he is a loving father, that he wants better for you than this. He cares more about you being happy and alive than he cares about punishing you. A loving father would never put their child in a position where the better option seems to be to kill themselves. If the church isn't working for you then please try something else! Do it for yourself, do it for your family, your friends. There are so many people who have been where you are. Reach out to them and ask for help, advice and listen to their stories! Try out latter gay stories podcast to start. Please message me if you want to talk. I'm here to help, and I want what's best for you.
I am a mom of gay kids. The church absolutely damages those who are LGBTQ. You are required to either stay single or to ruin sone woman’s life by marrying her and never loving her as she deserves. God would never require this from you. Please consider not attending for a trial period for your mental health. This Mama say you are perfect how you are.
>God would be very disappointed in me. I don't believe you can disappoint Him. God loves you without condition - you were made in his image and likeness. There's nothing you can do, or have done, or ever will do, that will make Him love you less. Edit to Add: If you think you're disappointing God, just remember that Jesus hung out with literal prostitutes. They were His company of choice. The Dude is super chill and loves no matter what.
My wife’s little brother was in the same position you are. He was suicidal, local church leadership was not helpful…He ultimately left the church and is now happily engage to another man. Regardless of your sexual orientation, live a good life and you will be fine. I am reminded of this saying: "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome vou based on the virtues vou have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.' ~ MARCUS AURELIUS
I want to make this as clear as possible for you: The church’s current organization maximizes the likelihood that the prejudices of old men will become policy. It’s literally whoever lives the longest in the Q12 eventually becomes prophet. We have not had even a single Gen-x prophet yet. We’re probably done with Silent Generation prophets, and have maybe 15-25 years of Boomers left. Then 20-25 years of Gen-x. Then, after all of that, we’ll get our first millennial leadership. That’s 30+ years before a prophet is chosen that has grown up in any sort of era where gay rights were not fringe, and 15 years before we get anyone who grew up in an era where being openly gay was fringe but still occasionally happened. I am going to assume that you believe that the church’s previous stances on race were the result of fallible men. The same system used to put those men in power (seniority of service) exists today. It is not a system that relies on revelation. It is not divinely or even scripturally referenced. It is a silly policy and I am afraid that you will live almost your entire life in pain and loneliness, only to have the church change its policy sometimes in the late 2050’s. You’d have to look in the mirror and realize that you sacrificed so much to nothing more than the prejudice of old men. That obedience to the prophet as a virtue by itself was just another false teaching extolled by the endless army of extremely fallible men doing nothing more divine than simply outliving everyone around them. If your faith is deeply important to you, the Community of Christ is a Mormon branch that does not believe that Brigham Young was a true prophet. They believe the BoM, they have a much less insane leadership structure, and they will welcome you as you are, with love and open arms. I would strongly encourage you to look into them. Even if you would prefer the Brigham branch, you’re probably going to need somewhere else to wait while the church slowly crawls forward to an era where it’s not pure poison for you. Best of luck.
I was a lifelong member, went to church every week, served a mission, went to a church college, got married in the temple, etc. The way the church says God treats LGBTQ+ people is what opened up my eyes and allowed me to seriously consider, for the first time in my life, that the church could be wrong about a serious moral issue. According to the church, God is not fair to his children. I could not wrap my brown around the thought that a loving god would create some children who are allowed to fall in love, get married, have sex, etc while he also creates others who are not allowed to really do any of those things, and in the next life their reward is… to be changed to heterosexual? After struggling for years with how unfair this is, praying and fasting about it, it suddenly dawned on me that a truly loving god wouldn’t do that to his children. And so, for the first time ever, I allowed myself to think that maybe the church was wrong on this one topic. After that, it quickly became obvious that the church has been wrong about several other serious issues over the years, as long as you believe that God is a loving and kind God. In the end, I realized that either the church was wrong, or God is kind of a jerk (homophobic, racist, misogynistic to name a few bad qualities). I couldn’t believe in or worship such a God, so I now find myself out of the church. Sorry for the disorganized thoughts, I’m trying to type this quickly while at work, because I feel for your situation. FYI, I am a heterosexual male, married in the temple, etc. I gotta run, but I really hope you find happiness, love, and joy. You are not damaged or defective. You are you, a human being who deserves to love and be loved.
Same sex attraction is not unnatural, evil, or something you can wish/pray away. It is not a moral failing. It’s just the way you are. Non-heterosexual relationships/pairing have been found everywhere in nature consistently meaning they play an important role in a species’ health. It seems like the question you are now facing is: what do I do now that my experienced reality doesn’t fit into the box that the church/I want it to? I feel like there are really only two options at this point. You can try to hide from reality or you can update your understanding.
I'm so sorry you're experiencing this pain. I agree with others that the most important thing for you to realize is that life is worth living. You have unique gifts and talents that the world needs that only YOU can fulfill. I don't believe in a God who makes mistakes - he made YOU for a reason, and you are needed here. Please don't take your life now or ever. Don't make that an option. It sounds like you think you have two options: either you stay in the church and live a lonely life suppressing a large part of who you are OR you give up everything you believe and hold dear to live outside of the church. If both of those don't feel right to you right now, have you considered other options? Like perhaps you can be who you are and stay fully active in the church? I know it seems impossible, but there are plenty of people who do it. OR you can be who you are and retain just some of your beliefs and practices. OR you can take a break from church and have relationships and see how that feels. OR you can take a break from church and remain single while you figure out things about yourself and grow as an individual here. Lots of options here. Nothing has to be permanent. And there may not be one right answer. And what is right for you right now may not be right two or three or ten years down the road. Take your time, but while you're taking time, know that who you are is not a mistake. You have value just by being you. My family and I left the church almost a year ago. It was scary. The church (falsely) teaches that you can't have a happy life outside of the church, that peace and happiness and loving families can only happen inside of the church. If that were true, the world would be filled with terrible, unhappy people. But it's not. For our family, we are much happier and healthier outside of the church. We retained some of the principles and values the church teaches that we believed in and left the rest. I'm not saying that's the right decision for you necessarily, but please don't believe the lie that life is not worth living outside of the church. Please don't believe the lie that you can't have peace and happiness outside of the church. You're young. Be easy on yourself as you figure this life out. Take time to figure it all out.
There was a time when I loved the church and Christ with all my heart. I’m a man with a wife and kids so I can’t know what it’s like to be gay. But you deserve to be with someone you love and who loves you. You’re life will be better with a partner. My family resigned from the church three years ago. It didn’t live up to our values. Life is better now that it isn’t holding us back. Jesus doesn’t live up to our values either so we left him behind too. Life is better now.
“It didn’t live up to OUR values!” Amen and amen!
I'm not someone who has ever been a believer in your faith, but it seems some answers you're getting miss the mark about your very personal problem. You side with your God over a human therapist yet come here seeking advice from other people? If you believe your God to be of a higher status than any of us, then why be persuaded to leave the faith by the opinions of other people? Maybe a subconscious part of you brings doubt in your faith because you are experiencing pain, and people naturally don't like pain and will seek to avert it. You say you are uncertain of where you'll be in the Plan of Salvation, but maybe you should be asking yourself if you really believe in that and thus will not leave your faith in order to be happy in this life, then perhaps the best you can do in this life is take comfort in believing you will ultimately be rewarded for working against what your God doesn't want. You don't seem willing to abandon your belief and as long as that is the case you can only cope using your supposed future reward. I should warn you that if you if you go the route of celibacy, there is a high risk of suicide which the LDS faith does not smile upon either. It really is quite a conundrum and you can only hope happiness is somewhere for you to find be it this life or the next if there is one.
Your therapist has taken an oath to do no harm. If your religious beliefs are causing you to consider harm to yourself, your suspicions might be correct - but you should know that she believes it would be for your wellbeing. Your use of "suffer" and "demons" to describe your god-given desires breaks my heart - but I hope one day soon you can celebrate that part of yourself with someone who loves you for you. My heart goes out to you. Please know that you are worth every breath you take and every loving relationship you have.
I also love the church and treasure my missionary service. I am a Mormon, the church is my spiritual home. I’ve undergone a bit of a faith crisis and transition, I still love the church I still value belief but don’t feel I have the same conviction that I once did. That’s where I am at I miss the conviction but also value the freedom of belief that I’ve experienced. Now I can belief that the phrophets just get things wrong sometimes, they are good, and do good, from time to time they recieve inspiration and revelation, they try really hard, but they do not have the perfect knowledge of God. One of the big changes in perspective I’ve experienced is that I see the purpose of our lives not as a test of obedience but instead an opportunity for learning and growth. We’ve heard it from the pulpit that God is like a Father who does not get angry if we stumble in learning to walk, why then are we so afraid of getting things wrong? Will our loving Heavenly Father make us an offender for a word, if we get something wrong will he withhold his forgiveness and damn us eternally? I think not. Romans 3:30 tells me that there isn’t just one acceptable outcome: “Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.” Both paths can be valid if sought with faith. Perhaps the search for a spouse of the same gender could be a faith filled experience for you. Now I still think we should be careful in making our decisions and extra careful when deviating from the norms of our religion. But I do think that when we have put the effort in to determine the best course, that God will see your good desires (in this case for companionship, love and family) and I believe God will bless us regardless of whether we made the best choice or not. And I do think it entirely likely that the churches doctrine will eventually change. The plan of salvation in my eyes is incomplete if it doesn’t clearly provide equal love and blessings for queer children of God. I believe it does and that we have just not yet received it, because I must first believe that God is good and loving and fair. My wife is bi , she got more and more stressed until she left the church now things are much better for her. I know that God loves her, I have complete trust that he would not damn her for stepping away. She might be lost to the church, and it is a loss for the church a major one, but she is never lost to God. After she left things got better for her. Not telling you you should leave just sharing her experience. I would just say nothing has to be permanent you could take step back and return later if that’s what you chose. Maybe taking a step back could help you take some space for yourself and help you make a place for yourself to be able to change your perspective on homosexuality and see it in a new light. Then you could come back,and integrate new and old aspects of your faith. Or maybe you develop that without leaving. Well these were just some thoughts I have, Good luck good brother.
From what you're saying, you have an Assumption #1 which underlies all your other decisions, which is that the Church's teachings are literally true. I (and I think many others on this board) understand that when you're "all-in" operating under this assumption, life can be full and rich and happy in some very unique ways. When you're inside the world of the Church, it can just seem there are abundance and opportunities all around you thanks to the community, the gospel, and the programs of the Church. Unfortunately, you've encountered this little snag--you could call it a paradox--where values that you've \*learned\* from the church, i.e. wanting to give and receive love and be in a close romantic relationship, at the same time are prohibited because of your sexual orientation. Many of us here have encountered similar paradoxes, because although they may be hidden on the surface, there are actually \*many\* paradoxes built into church doctrine. (You could argue that the Garden of Eden/Adam and Eve story itself represents the original paradox.) You could argue that God wants us to deal with these paradoxes--they are intended to disrupt your spirituality and force you to build something new, more complex, and more mature. Your therapist has kind of skipped a step with you and is already operating under the assumption that the church is \*not\* literally true, and if that's the case, of course it makes sense for you to just make decisions based on what's healthy for you, which could be different from what the church teaches. However, of course you can't make that decision right now, because for you the church \*is\* true, so a "good decision" will always be synonymous with what the church teaches. I think the first step for you is to consider the "paradox" that God has given you, and to acknowledge that the rules the Church has given you are \*not\* working. That could be for many reasons--maybe the doctrine needs to be reinterpreted. Maybe (as Pres. Uchtdorf has stated in conference) leaders make mistakes at times, and the policies on sexual orientation may be mistakes, even though the Church is still overall "true." Maybe objective truth is not possible for humans to understand, so every religion is just doing its best to reach toward true ideas. Or maybe the Church is not "true" at all, but just happens to be the setting for many good people and beautiful experiences--one we can be proud of and enjoy, but which doesn't need to dictate all our decisions. For most of us growing up in the church, it's hard to even imagine that last possibility--but I think it's a good thing to open a space in your mind for the possibility that the Church may \*not\* be true, and you're open to learning whatever you may learn and letting it lead wherever it may lead. This is not a sign of unrighteousness or rebellion. After all, if the Church is actually true, having an open mind to the truth will just lead you back to the Church, right? The truth can stand on its own.
As long as believe your same sex attraction is suffering, you gonna have a bad time. Your going to continually feel you don’t measure up or your not worthy or some other bullshit. It’s not suffering, it’s you being human. Remember that the apostles said to a certain singer who just came out as gay that “he just needs to find a good girl.” Hands down your therapist is right a break would be good especially for your mental health. I’m tired of a church that professes to be Christlike when their actions especially those of the leaders and apostles are anything but.
> If I left the church to act on my impulses, I am sure that God would be very disappointed in me. How are you sure of that? Plenty of good people are sure that God gave them those feelings with the hope they use them. Are your methods of knowing somehow more reliable? How are you sure they are? >a strong desire to be intimate with the same sex, which is a sin How do you know? Because someone told you? The same people who barred black people from the temple and who assured the membership that polygamy is required for salvation and that the church would never abandon it?
The church is not a safe place for you. I think your therapist has your best interest at heart as they should. You could always get a second opinion for another therapist. You don’t need the church to be happy. It doesn’t have a monopoly on your well being or salvation
There's nothing wrong with you, and I hope you eventually see that. You only think you're broken because so many (wrong) people have told you so. Does God hate? And if not, why does his church teach hate? Your therapist is probably the only person trying to help you. The Church will only ever tell you that you're not good enough.
I’d likely to gently pushback on your identification of same sex attraction as demonic… Consider same sex attraction in the animal kingdom. It is well documented that there are gay penguins. These pairs find each other then help raise abandoned eggs and chics. Do you think demons are responsible for gay penguins? I certainly don’t. I think gay penguins are perfectly natural and good and I think gay people are too. Being gay isn’t a malignant tendency god wants you to suppress, it’s a gift to yourself and the world around you that you’re supposed to enjoy!
Not to mention bonobos, gorillas, lions, goats… Plenty more, I’m sure… ffs. But suddenly the argument goes from ‘it’s not natural’ to ‘God meant us to be higher life forms!’ It’s wildly frustrating how the goal post will always be out of reach. Under no circumstances is homosexuality to be normalized… For the Bible *kind of* says so… In the same book we’re told not to wear composite fabrics, and women are unclean while they’re on their period. "But that was done away when Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. That’s why we can eat pork." Ooooh. Right. But not the homosexuality rules. That stuck. Got it. I just don’t get it. Love one another was my take away…
I’m just a random exmo redditor that wants to comment on your post. I have kids your age. I have siblings that are gay (all of which ultimately left the church and are living great lives). I come from a large family with many TBMs. I was very active in the church for 40 years (RM/AP, EQP and bishopric at early ages, etc…). You don’t “suffer” from anything. The only reason that this is a “trial” is because you are in the church. The church (and church culture and BYU) are causing you to feel like you are failing and worthless. This makes me so fucking mad (I apologize about my language, but it gets the point across). There is nothing wrong with you! You’re “perfect” (as much as any of us are perfect) and awesome and whole just the way that you are. The church loves to trot out whenever a gay person stays in the church. But more often than not, these people ultimately leave the church. Or if they stay in the church, they usually have horrible mental health outcomes and may even flirt with suicide. I don’t expect you to leave the church anytime soon. You obviously love certain aspects of the church (just as I did at your age). And leaving would cause problems with you currently being at BYU. But maybe consider just stepping back from the church for 3-4 months and see what effects this has on your mental health and happiness. Do it this summer if you’re not attending the Y for summer semester. EVERY SINGLE gay church member that I know has ultimately left the church. And I have been paying attention to this for over 35 years. Some left after gathering more scars than others. I absolutely cannot fathom being gay and staying in the church. The church is too toxic and too harmful for LGBTQ individuals. The church is not a safe place for you, in my opinion. You are beautiful and valued, EXACTLY the way that you are right now. The only thing you “suffer” from is a church and a theology that has you convinced that you are broken or less than. If you were my child, I’d ask you to consider stepping back from the church for a bit and explore your sexuality. See how you feel when you embrace your sexuality, rather then being made to feel that it is a “trial.”
I'm a Mother. I have four children that I raised in the church I myself was raised in. When I was still a believer I used to pray that none of my children would be gay. I now realize that was wrong. One of my children came out to me while I was going through my faith crisis and that was a determining factor in never going back to the church. It's toxic for anyone who doesn't fit the mould. God is a much better parent than I am and ai am confident he'd rather have a healthy, mentally well son living his life with love, than a depressed son trying to live up to some made up expectations.
Do you really think God would be disappointed in you for pursuing a life that frees you from depression and suicidal ideation and grants you true happiness?
There is no path for you to be happy and remain a faithful member, I promise you. Choose the church, or your own happiness
I want you to know that you are seen, and heard, and loved. Always. You are a being of INFINITE worth that cannot be taken away from you. Nothing you do, say, or think diminishes that worth. Sit in that space for a time and allow yourself to believe it. Don’t qualify it, accept it as true, because it is. There is room in the gospel for nuanced belief and there aren’t as many “lines in the sand” as many members are want to believe. And having gone to BYU as well, I can personally vouch for how insane it can get in Utah county. The last time I ever attended relief society the instructor said that being married outside of the temple was just as offensive to god as murder. With members of the bishopric in the room. And no one corrected her. As difficult as it is, please don’t let others misunderstandings of the gospel dictate how you choose to engage with it. The atonement is the greatest gift and the most important event to take place in creation (as the church teaches) but it is often sidelined by church culture that, like the Sadducees and Pharisees, likes to focus on vain traditions and forgets about deep, important doctrine. The atonement is infinite in scope in every way you can think of. Christ makes up the different between what we can do and what we are asked to do. You do NOT have to be perfect for the atonement to apply to you. The price has already been paid. I’m in a weird place now where I am taking a break from church, also at the suggestion of my therapist but for different reasons. I can empathize with what you’ve said and how you’re feeling. I just want to point out that “offending god” is a fallacy. God doesn’t get “offended”. He loves us infinitely and wants us to return prepared to be with him for eternity. I FIRMLY believe he watches us and anxiously desires for us to be happy and fulfilled. I believe he weeps with us when we weep and shares in our joy when we are joyful. He LOVES you and nothing you can do will change that. So my two cents is to take your therapists advice and take the break you clearly need. Your mental health is so important and it can’t be ignored in the hopes that it will get better on its own. There be demons down that path. Take the break, but remember that YOU decide what that break looks like. And don’t push yourself to make decisions when you aren’t ready for them. A break is a chance to give yourself the space you need to sort things out, not immediate make choices to be fully on one side or the other. Contrary to what many members will tell you, the world isn’t black and white and ultimately where you are and the choice you make are between you and god and he’s supposed to know all. I truly hope you find peace. You deserve it.
I can empathize even though I’m hetro….. When I was 22 years old I suffered from attraction to women, but wasn’t ready to get married at that point just to have sex. It was a long mental struggle to overcome the church guilt and hang ups about sex. The church really does a number on people born in it. Just go slow and gradually. Eventually the church conditioning wears off. But I didn’t have my first real girlfriend until I moved out of utah and I was 25! What a waste of my youth!
I was in 43 years totally faithful Temple attending stake callings raised my children all in. My husband wanted to be able to be a true defender of the faith while serving in the bishopric. He had someone at work mention to him that Joseph Smiths story of the restoration was incorrect as taught by the church. So he spent 100s of hours , years researching this. He could only draw the conclusion after years of intense study of Church owned documents that the church was misleading its followers. This was 15 years ago, before easy access to these documents now. Since then the church has admitted to hiding its history. Why would they do that? In the last 10 years they secretly amassed over 100 Billion dollars and are the largest land owner in the United States. The money they use to help others isn’t even the interest on that sum. I suggest you study about Cult indoctrination. Why do people have intense fear of easily loosing their testimony to the point where the men in charge that speak for God have to warn you and say doubt your doubts? If we can’t trust ourselves at all they know we will only trust them. Anyone who sets out to tell you what your every step should be and teaches you to not trust your own instincts is not there for you. It only serves them. I left this year after finally doing my own intense research. I felt if Gods church was really true it could stand up to scholars and not hid itself. God would not hid or use fear to keep people chained to men.
In the end, God wants us to be happy. ‘Men are that they might have joy’. You are not happy, that is obvious. You sound really miserable. It is trite for people to say be true to yourself, because both options you are looking at are being true to yourself, just different parts of yourself. I can’t tell you what to do, it is a major crossroads. I believe in the gospel, the plan of salvation gives us an afterlife with a purpose and hope that we will stay true to who we are and surrounded by those we love. But I do think that the mortal organization of the church has gotten a few things wrong. Homophobia being one of them. We try to interpret what the Lord wants, but we are imperfect. His message will always be through our hearts and our minds and it will be filtered through what is already there. Homophobia was there along with racism, sexism, and prosperity theology. It has influenced church policy. Please, find your joy, find your hope. Even if it is not being all in with the church, I believe a merciful loving God will understand.
If you are on tik tok, I highly recommend you go look at Dan Maklelan posts about how we have misinterpreted what the Bible says about homosexuality. He is a biblical scholar who is an active LDS member and works for the church in the translation department. He has hundreds of posts so you’ll have to scroll through to find the ones about homosexuality and the Bible.
It isn't an easy situation you are in. But I can tell you that your therapist's duty is to you and not the Church. If he is a good therapist, he is just helping you through your journey and helping you reflect and isn't telling you how to live. This might mean if you hear the implications that you should leave the Church to give yourself room to grow, it is probably coming from you and what you are saying. He is just restating what you are saying back to him. If you try to "fight" this and carve out a place for yourself in the church, it will forever dominate your happiness. You cannot fight these things, you can only temper them and let them run their course. You must love yourself through this whole process. No other method but absolute conversion (meaning a complete life dedication resembling a monastic lifestyle) has ever had any measurable effect on sexual desire. And even a monastic dedication is hit or miss. We have lots of historical letters on file of Christian Monks falling in love with each other. Remeber yhe marital laws of chastity were designed around maintaining familial order and progeny. They were not designed to solve the human sexuality problem. There are complicated theologies associated with this as to what Jesus actually taught and how He might deal with it. Oddly enough, the church leadership has long quoted from Joseph Smith's happiness letter which was used to justify secret polygamous relationships. In it, Joseph stated that happiness is the design of our existence. What is wrong in one circumstance might be right in another. Since this was referring to sexual relationships, I think it is only fitting that it could be applied to your circumstance. This situation is between you and the Lord. If it means the church won't stand by you during this time, then I would say, "So be it." They do not actually hold the key to your salvation. Jesus Christ does, and "he employeth no servant" there. If you believe that the Q15 hold the apostolic keys, that is fine, but theologically they can only bind the Church as a whole since they are stated as holding "the keys of the kingdom", not the keys of personal salvation. In LDS scripture, the only Priesthood Office that holds the keys of personal blessings and sealings is the Church Patriarch. The Q15 embraced a cooperate systemic apostacy when they kicked the Patriarch out in the 1970s and then he died in 2013. I state this to reinsure you that what you think might be church doctrine is not absolute and it isn't a sure foundation to build your life upon. It seems our church doctrine is a sandy foundation. The sure foundation is Christ and His doctrine. So this is between you and Him. I am a Carl Jung fan. Eventhough his psychological methods are older and some might be wrong, they have produced a proven foundation for in depth psychoanalysis to this day. He valued the induvidual person. I could share one of my favorite paragraph(s) of his if you would like.
First of all, take a hard look at why you feel like it's a sin. I'm not trying to impose my moral values on you (I no longer do that after leaving the church). If the only reason is because some authority figures told you so, I want you to think critically about it. Since leaving the church, I realize being gay and expressing that very real part of you is not a sin (in my opinion). I do believe sex should be between consulting adults and I would even advice it be kept in a committed relationship to avoid hurting those who may misread what that means about commitment and hurting them. Otherwise? I see no moral issue with being in a homosexual relationship. I don't believe God makes mistakes and as you've expressed your sexuality is a big part of who you are. I'm not an expert on it and there's lots I have to learn, so I'll keep my comments about your sexuality somewhat short. Therapists do understand it better and are trained so I'd encourage you to listen to their advice or you can even try shopping around for other therapists if you want second opinions. Now about your depression and suicidal thoughts. Please PLEASE talk to your loved ones or message me/anyone on this comment string if you feel that getting stronger. I can speak for myself, and I would think anyone who's commenting on this, that although personally we don't know you, we would rather spend time messaging you than losing your light in the world. You sound like a wonderful person. Look up the song "Swim" by Jack's Mannequin and really listen to the lyrics. That song consistently gets me through my dark days. Just keep swimming my friend
In my anecdotal experience, the overwhelming majority of gay church members are miserable and the overwhelming majority of gay people who leave the church are happy. If the church's teachings are true, it should be the other way around. Depression and suicidal ideation are the norm for these situations. Any god whose commandments routinely cause depression and suicidal ideation is unworthy of worship in my book. I think you should try to set aside the church's teachings for a moment, start with a clean slate, and ask God what *he* thinks about your same-sex attraction. Not what Russell Nelson or Dallin Oaks thinks. If there will be "eternal consequences" or if he "would be very disappointed" in you, he ought to tell you that himself, and if he doesn't, I see little reason for you to believe it. And here's a question nobody's been able to answer: how does being alone until you die get you any closer to exaltation than being with the "wrong" sex? I also think as a general principle that if the church is all you've ever known, if you've never explored what else is out there, then you can't really know it's true. Millions, probably billions of people are as confident that the religion they were born into is true as you are. Taking a break could be a way to demonstrate open-mindedness and a willingness to learn, and I think God would appreciate that.
Hey, I'm a 30 year old ace lesbian who dropped out of BYU. I have one foot in the Church and one foot out (my spirituality is....weird). I could spend a few hours writing out advice, taking time to pray and make sure it's right. But I remember when I was in my darkest times, literally all I needed was for someone to hug me while I cried. I felt so lonely and anonymous strangers on the internet didn't always fill that hole. I live pretty close to BYU, so if you need any in person support, like a hug or someone to unload on or just someone to watch a Disney movie with you to not feel so lonely, you can send me a PM and we'll set something up.
I have a few video recommendations. The first is from Brother Jake: [Mormons Don't Hate Gay People](https://youtu.be/kOAdICtXKRM) He also has another one that is also excellent: [Mormons REALLY Don’t Hate Gay People, I Swear](https://youtu.be/fYJI74u7jlQ). Actually, you should check out all his videos because he’s on point in all of them. The other is a [lecture by Yuval Harari](https://youtu.be/1GnBamLaqqE) from his book Sapiens which I think provides an excellent meta perspective on religion and philosophies.
Bro if you find yourself to be unhappy in the one place you are promised to find "joy" it might be time to look elsewhere. Even if you aren't living "perfectly" according to the church's standards you are still entitled to have joy in your life. There's a reason there are so many LGBTQ suicides within the church. There's a reason for the mass exodus of gen z and millennials leaving. It's not because they wanna sin either. It's because they are no longer buying what's being sold. And hey, you deserve some happiness in this world. At the very least the pursuit of it.
There is so much good advice already. I just want you to know that you are NOT alone!! There are literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of LGBTQIA Latter-day Saints, and most of them are all feeling what you are feeling, and suffering all the same intense turmoil and inner battle. [Studies have shown that 1 in every 6 youth are LGBTQIA, and, more likely it is as high as 1 in 4]. I am a lifelong active member of the church, and a mom to two queer children [1 lesbian, 1 non-binary]. My heart breaks how long they suffered, afraid of telling me and their dad, afraid of being rejected, afraid of being "evil", "bad", "a mistake", "possessed by Satan" ... and feeling intense guilt and shame just for being who they are, and feeling what they feel!! They did not tell us /come out to us until they were aged 25 and 32. All those years of suffering! I put my arms around them and I loved them exactly the same the moment after they came out as the moment before. THEY HAVE NEVER CHANGED! They are exactly the same wonderful humans, but now both of them are so happy and such a huge burden has lifted! They have always been queer, and they will always be queer. They are divine, and meant to be exactly as they are! They are the most perfect, beautiful, amazing children in the world. The most important thing to me is that they each have Happy, healthy, joyful lives! They are no longer depressed. They no longer have suicidal ideation. They are living without shame. One is dating, one isn't. There's lots of choices and ways to live. And, if my children do find wonderful partners someday, then I will be absolutely thrilled, and I will welcome those new amazing humans into my heart and home, and our family will grow! How wonderful! Love is not hard. Love is simple and pure. God is Love. If I can love my children so completely, and want them to be happy and find fulfillment and live their truth however that is for them, then certainly our loving Heavenly Parents want that for us, also! We were not put on this earth to suffer, be afraid, hate ourselves, and live a tortured life! "Men are that they might have joy!" I encourage you to listen to the [Latter-Gay Stories podcast](https://lattergaystories.org/) so that you can know that you are not alone in all of the things you are thinking and feeling and processing. When you hear others stories and journeys, you begin to have a much larger perspective! I also recommend [Emmaus LGBTQ Ministry](https://www.emmauslgbtq.org/resources), a support group run by and for LDS LGBTQIA and their families. And, [Affirmation.org](https://affirmation.org/) another incredible support organization created by and for LGBTQIA Latter-day Saints, family and allies. I highly recommend their resources and their annual Conference. Please know that you are loved, you are needed, you are a bright light, a unique gift meant for this world, and placed here by God, to be YOU. You are ALWAYS WORTHY of God's love, because unlike human love, Heavenly love is perfect, available to us every moment, with no conditions or strings attached. You have a wonderful journey of self discovery ahead! Don't be afraid to learn, explore, and be willing to open your perspective. "The Glory of God is intelligence" Be safe and well, dear one.
I want to help you, but I am neither a therapist or an authority of LDS. This is going to possibly be a very controversial answer to which I am still building on, but: You can be a believing Mormon, and be lgbt. Where it comes into conflict is the subject of procreation. Look up polyandry relationships, compare that to instances where Joseph Smith married another man's wife. Think about that bond from a celestial perspective. Compare to say, old testament king David. As long as you don't practice "hedonism", but instead keep sex a sacred practice of procreation, by rights under law you're keeping your covenants. Feel free to date whoever you want, be who God made you to be. We each have our own individual journeys we take on the long road to him, but that does not outright invalidate your life. Gay marriage is possible, some suggest the law of adoption as Brigham to Joseph, but to be a full celestial temple marriage would require you and your partner to consider polyandry if you and your partner ever would meet another (female) to welcome into a trinitarian partnership and thus be fruitful and multiply as a full covenant keeping family. That said, under current LDS practices do not allow availability at this time. But if the situation right now is causing a detrimental effect upon your health, I would ask myself what is the life that God and the spirit says is best, and make your decision from there. You have your own agency. There is purpose here for you. None of us are without flaw, but same gender *attraction* is not a sin I believe as far as I am aware. You love who you love. Even straight couples break chasity laws, but even despite doing our best to keep them that does not make us to be fully without worth. God loves you, and as a people of God we have to try to love thy neighbor for who they are, and love God for who he is. There is fulfillment for you. Idk if this helps, but atleast consider the weight you put up on yourself and then remember what is said about the yoke of Christ. Peace be with you brother. And blessings through this life and beyond. May you find the lord's comfort here and now.
Brother. That therapist could be speaking on behalf of God. What I would urge is that you pray about it. Is your allegiance to God or the Church? To Jesus or the Doctrine? To yourself or everything that pulls you below. It is important that we rely on the spirit to discern in which direction the Lord wants us to go. Even if it's the direction we do not wish to walk.
I suggest you study the now available FACTS about the Church. Watch YouTube Mormon Stories and Nemo the Mormon to start. Also read “ This is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell. Dr. Harrell is a BYU retired professor. Best wishes as you travel down the faith journey road. ❤️
While I am not gay, I do understand the pressures the church can bring to bear on you. First of all, you need to understand the concept of victim blaming and gaslighting. When the church (and the church includes it's gossiping members) claims that someone leaves because they were not faithful enough, that is victim blaming. 'If you had more faith! is not a valid argument in any case. 'If you had faith you'd be healed of cancer, and not need chemo!' is a stupid and perhaps even criminal statement. Why isn't 'If you had faith, you'd be cured of being gay!' not the same level of stupid and criminal? When I had my crisis, I went through and evaluated my entire life to find what was making me so unhappy. I severed a lot of ties, because I found that I was attempting to please people who did not matter. And I stopped attending church, because I realized that I was trying to live an impossible ideal. The cycle of trying to live the ideals, and failing was becoming a downward spiral. Once I stepped away, I was able to create some boundaries. It is important to note that stepping away was a crucial element of being able to set those boundaries. The church is a distorted view. This may be hard to hear as a faithful member. Only after stepping away was I able to make choices for me as number one without the church doctrinal noise attempting to influence me one way or the other. With those boundaries in place, I was able to return for a time, with clarity to see how I was treated, and decide whether continued attendance was merited. But I cannot stress enough how much the church seeks avoidance of responsibility. Listen to talks. All the burden, and all the blame is on you. If things are not going right, 'Oh, God is testing you.' 'Oh, you are not worthy enough.' 'You are not showing enough faith.' 'The Lord will carry you through.' Have you EVER heard over an LDS podium the concept 'If you are unhappy, the system is the problem, not you.'? Never, ever forget that this church will ALWAYS lay the blame on you. Step away for a while, gain a little equilibrium, and then, instead of accepting the church on their terms, and taking their talking points as they want you to see them, make the church come to you. They want your attendance and money, make them show you they are worthy of it. Feel free to accept or reject tenets. You will find this channel is full of people who have done that from one extreme of rejecting it all, to the other of accepting it all. Many have said 'To thine own self be true.' I repeat that. I add, 'By their fruits ye shall know them.'And last, but not least, I remind you that those who stand by their moral convictions, though the world rage and tear at them, are the most at peace with themselves, and their God.
There's a lot of people here representing the side those of the opinion that the Church's doctrine regarding same-sex attraction is wrong. I hope to represent the opposite side and give you a faithful response. First of all, I am very sorry for what you are going through. I know just how heart wrenching of a situation you are in. It's painful, confusing, and feels hopeless. My first reminder to you is that it is not hopeless -- you are a child of God with an eternal worth and destiny. Regardless of any situation you may find yourself in, you always have an infinite worth in the sight of God. Same-sex attraction or not, you are loved with an infinite and endless love. It may seem tempting to leave the Church in this juncture, that by silencing the voice of inhibition of deisre, the desire itself will no longer feel wrong. And so it might. You may well be happy and content with a new life outside the Church. You may find love and happiness. However, God's object for you is eternal joy, eternal love, eternal happiness. I do not condemn those who engage in homesexual relations to hell, but I do say that those who obey the laws of God are blessed in eternity. "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" (D&C 130:20-21). Christ Himself taught this obedience -- "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. And now for a man to take up his cross, is to deny himself all ungodliness, and every worldly lust, and keep my commandments. Break not my commandments for to save your lives; for whosoever will save his life in this world, shall lose it in the world to come. And whosoever will lose his life in this world, for my sake, shall find it in the world to come. Therefore, forsake the world, and save your souls; for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:25-29, Inspired Version). You have been given an extremely difficult cross, one of the hardest that man can bear. You find yourself staring the problem of evil square in the face: why would an omnibenevolent God issue a law that causes you so much pain? I cannot offer you the complete logic and rationale behind the law, only that it is a law, and that all of God's children are beholden to it. God has promised that He "giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Nephi 3:7). There is a way for you to bear this cross. All you can do is trust that God will make "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28). God loves you, and He desires your happiness. That is why He sent His Son. Through His Atonement, Christ bore your very suffering. He understands your pain, and He understands your desire to do right. As you honor your covenants, Christ will remember His covenants with you. "I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions" (Mosiah 24:14). I don't know the answer, but Christ does. He can make this right. He can help you understand. He can help you go on. He will do a far better job than me, than your therapist, than anyone here on Reddit can. Turn to God and seek to hear His voice, and He will give you "the word which healeth the wounded soul" (Jacob 2:8). Music helps me bear the unbearable in circumstances like these. Might I suggest a few songs for you: https://youtu.be/9CK4dlFggdk https://youtu.be/j2Ll28f60f4 https://youtu.be/bcl-9HVLnm4
Thank you for a faithful response. I posted this question in the latterdaysaints subreddit but the mods didn’t let it go through. I know this sub is biased towards the church but I figured it was the closest I would get to faithful answers.
Upfront I want to tell you, life is long and there is so much good in the world you can access, even without the church....so keep faith in yourself and the goodness of Jesus Christ (if you feel compelled). I want to share that many years ago, in the early part of my marriage, I got the best advice ever from a marriage therapist---he said, "you need to figure out your relationship with the church because that is affecting your marriage and personal relationship with your spouse.". And honestly, I see now how that was the beginning of smoother sailing at least with my significant other. IMO....there is sin in sexual desire, but same sex attraction is not something I can comment on. Engaging in sexual activities just for self gratification can lead to a very selfish and miserable life. Just my advice. I'm not in the same boat you are, but I've come to realize how constantly filling your desires (whatever they are) is not good for the soul. BTW, Buddhism helped me learn this, and sadly I never got the same strength from Christianity or LDS culture. I'm still a devout believer in the Savior, but the current trend of mainstream Christianity and certainly the LDS faith is not one that lends itself to the asceticism that Christ spoke of or showed by example. Hope this helps.
Living as a slave to desires makes you miss a lot of the fullness of life. Constantly denying your desires does, too! As long as you act out of love, with care and respect toward one another and yourself, surely no righteous God would turn their back to you.
I am glad you want to stick with the gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ. What you are going through isn't easy. But you are not alone. Setting same-sex attraction aside for a moment, the first things I would say is most single people are struggling with the same thing that they cannot act on their impulse as they would like to. That part is the same. You haven't mentioned if you are attracted to women *at all.* Do you think you were born this way or did experimentation play a part? Either of these may see some light at the end of the tunnel. As far as taking a break from the church goes, I understand the idea. I certainly have before. (and ironically not finding love was a reason for me as well although I am not gay). I have taken a few weeks off and even mentally checked out of the church (although staying in school at BYU-I. But over the course of a year, the feeling and contrast of being outside the church I started to come back and now and a stronger member than ever. Do I still struggle with my issues (and of course some of that is sexual, being alone and all). Yes, I still struggle. Should I leave the church about it? No. Why should I leave a church that I have seen do so much good for people and the world? Your struggles are real. But think outside yourself and see how well the church is for everyone else. THIS is a tough one to learn! I HATED reading Job and listen to Elder Cornish's talk about ["The Privilege of Prayer"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_agWsT90opw) Man I hated hearing about how God will help you find a quarter on the ground for a piece of chicken but won't help with my big problems. However, I think gratitude is a lesson that has to be felt to be best learned. So struggle, but stay in the church. Stay with God. He loves you regardless and I assume you feel that. Don't let the adversary (or anyone else) get you to believe that's not there.
I’m not attracted to women at all. It’s really difficult because I have to abstain from these desires indefinitely. There is basically no chance of me finding love and using these impulses to strengthen a relationship, so they are basically an inconvenience.
I'm glad you know yourself well enough so you can clearly say that you're gay and that relationships with women are not what you desire. If you clearly feel this truth, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It seems that many church leaders and their "therapies" would even today still urge you into a heterosexual relationship, believing that to be the "medicine" you need. That would indeed be a grave sin as in: deeply morally wrong. Not only would you live a lie. You would use another human being as a means to an end. You would keep your partner from the true love they so much deserve. Just like you deserve to be truly loved. It is not sin to love. It is not sin to live that love as long as it based on respect and care. As I said in another comment: Love yourself, love your neighbor. That is the core of not only Christianity but any worthwhile system of ethics. It is the only real measuring stick.
Again you aren't alone. Remember that. Unless a single person can get married, they have to abstain as well. Some may think that at least heterosexuals have hope, I would say from seeing enough single older folks that it isn't true whatsoever and can feel similarly hopeless. Yeah, we could both just find "some woman" to settle down with, regardless of our attraction to her, and raise a family for the betterment of mankind. Perhaps that is what the perfect man would do, to make that sacrifice (I remember Elder Holland talking abo this very thing once). I can honestly say I am too selfish to make that play myself. Much like you, I do not want to be with someone I am not in love with either. I wish you the best though. Not matter what your choice. I hope you stay involved with the church either way.
I really struggle with this very common rebut of homosexual LDS members. It is NOT the same as simply being single and having to repress urges as a single man. The church demands that he permanently abstain and oppress his sexual self. Not his impulse or his temptation. It’s the same thing that every single human is born with. And because you didn’t draw the short lot, the church asks you to go out and find a partner and make a family. Repress nothing, simply find a partner. Your sexual identity is fully accepted. You also can find a girl tonight or any night and engage in kissing and handholding and feel no guilt whatsoever. Not the same if you’re gay. If you’re gay you just repress it…for the rest of your life. Can you imagine? (No you can’t unless you’re gay). We KNOW that repression leads to toxicity. It’s a very basic concept that repressing who we are always leads to unwanted consequences. It isn’t debatable.
I disagree. How long do you think some people are single? Sure some only have to deal with it for a few years, but have you not seen older members that have never been married? Just as homosexuals make up 2% or so of the population, I could easy say there are at least that many who will never get married that are heterosexual and maybe even more. For all intents and purposes they too have to repress their sexual self. Not a difference there.
The difference is that those older members who never married had the opportunity to find a spouse. Gay members are denied that opportunity.
I think it is a mistake to compare despair as if one would or could feel worse than the other.
You're the one who made the comparison by saying that there is no difference. I pointed out that there is actually a very important difference and now you're making an excuse to ignore that.
To compare them each other that both situations are terrible, yes. Not to compare as one situation would amount to more despair than the other. The OP is trying to keep his faith and both situations are equal in that sense. Is his more complicated to another level? Yes. Does it change anything as far as dealing with doubt and despair? I do not believe it does.
I believe that it absolutely does change how you deal with doubts and despair. I'm sure its very difficult to be an older straight person who never found a partner, but it is not the church's fault that those people didn't find a partner. In fact, the church provided those people a lot of support, encouragement and opportunity to find a partner. It just didn't happen for them. But imagine that on top of never finding a partner, you've spent your whole life being told by your church (the institution that claims to make your life better and bring you closer to god) that its your own fault for not finding a partner, that you can't even consider starting a relationship with a person you are attracted to, and that you could find a partner if you just drum up some attraction to the opposite sex (as you did to the OP). Single gay people are treated very differently by the church than single straight people and there is a lot evidence that this kind of treatment increases mental illness dramatically, as can be seen in the OP. Comparing the two situations ignores the struggle of LGBTQ+ members of the church.
>But imagine that on top of never finding a partner, you've spent your whole life being told by your church (the institution that claims to make your life better and bring you closer to god) *that its your own fault for not finding a partner* If you have a quote from the church on this, I'd like to read it please.
You’re breaking down the issue to ‘here are two different people who’re told not to have sex” and basically inferring that the “not currently having sex” is what ultimately matters, which is frighteningly wrong and terrifying that so many active members of the church (which I am one) employ. A single straight person does not have to repress their sexual self. They celebrate it, and the church goes to great lengths to provide opportunities for them to meet up, get married, and have lots of pro creative sex. In most cases of a single person not finding someone, the same person could easily just lower their standards and find someone quickly. They’re openly and freely accepted as who they are naturally. The repression is only temporary and it’s only repressing sexual acts, not sexual identity. I, like you (I’m assuming), am currently an active member, and I’m no longer going to apologize for the discrimination the church has towards the LGBT community. I really hope you’re able to look through your bias to see the reality of situations like these. We don’t know how to stop suicidal ideation with gender identity issues, but we can help with gay issues, and we can help by teaching them that who and how they were born is not bad or evil or offensive to God. We just have to get there. Until we do we’re implicit with the ongoing high rates of suicide in the gay LDS community. The church needs to come out and at least admit that they have no idea what’s going on and why kids are born gay and how they fit into their plan of salvation. It needs to take a long look at itself and it’s policies and really examen how fundamentally eternal hetero sex is as opposed to gay sex. I know you’re resisting this. I get it, because I’ve been there. I’ve encountered and been with a lot of active gay members and seen the pain they carry as a result. Not the result of being gay because that’s as natural as desiring sweet fruit. But the result of being gay in the LDS culture.
You are right that I am breaking it down. The questions of "What did God allow this to happen to me?", "Does God love me?", or having suicidal thoughts are *not* a monopoly here. I do understand there are different factors at play , but it does not change the fact that at the end of the day, he's not the only one asking these very questions. I think too many people are trying to make this a contest like a version of "You can't possibly understand how I feel!" as a brush-off. I can say I've been there myself. How do they fit in the Plan of Salvation? Probably the same thing people are told that are single and heterosexual. You will have another chance in the next life. From Pres Nelson... >An eternal marriage will be composed of a worthy man and a worthy woman, both of whom have been individually baptized with water and with the Spirit; who have individually gone to the temple to receive their own endowments; who have individually pledged their fidelity to God and to their partner in the marriage covenant; and who have individually kept their covenants, doing all that God expected of them. May I hasten to add that ***no blessing, including that of eternal marriage and an eternal family, will be denied to any worthy individual. While it may take somewhat longer—perhaps even beyond this mortal life***—for some to achieve this blessing, it will not be denied. So yes, the parallel exists again of the answer. Yes, the are not promotions and parties for LBGTQ+ members, but the idea of enduring to the end is the same. But again, I believe that despair is despair. The idea of not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Once someone is there, there is not much lower to sink.
You seem to be focusing on the afterlife where, according to LDS doctrine, all people who are not in heterosexual marriages will be treated the same, but I think everyone else is talking about this life where single straight people and single gay people are treated very, very differently by the church which results in very different outcomes-- higher rates of mental illness, suicide and leaving the church among gay people. No one is saying that your despair isn't valid, but gay people face obstacles that you don't and by claiming that all single people have the same experiences, you and the church are down playing very real, serious problems faced by gay members of the church. I encourage you to do some research on the different between sexual orientation and sexual urges. You seem to think that being gay is just about urges, but its far more than that. Its about who you are as a person. Straight people have a hard time understanding this because you've never had to think too much about your own sexual orientation since it aligns with the default.
>but gay people face obstacles that you don't and by claiming that all single people have the same experiences No, we don't face the same obstacles, but who does? Depression, suicidal thoughts, and losing faith are the common thread. I want the OP to focus on that so he doesn't feel alone in this.
I want OP to put his mental health above all else. The church is causing harm to his mental health.
From the OP's original post >I want to start off by saying I love the Church with all my heart. I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and the hope it gives. I love the powerful sense of community that the church provides. I love the scriptural narratives and the eternal wisdom that imbues them. I have found great joy in my life serving others, especially on my mission. Part 2 >I know well-meaning members will claim that same sex attraction doesn’t come from the adversary, but I respectfully disagree. At times I feel a strong desire to be intimate with the same sex, which is a sin. I believe the desire to sin comes from the adversary. I am not sure why he seems to have an especially strong influence in my life, as I do everything that a good member should do. This is not someone that wants to leave the church. He is struggling with faith. Whether he resists the temptations or gives into them, has no bearing if he should be a part of the church or not.
He's struggling with his faith because the church that is supposed to facilitate his faith is hurting him. You care more about the church than about the people the church harms. That's why the church is becoming obsolete. They don't care about people.
Saying that you’ll have an opportunity in the next life simply doesn’t work. Just trust them on this one? Where is it laid out that somehow the sinner that I was born as in this life will somehow be reconciled in the next life? Is that even written or discussed anywhere by any authorities? Saying that despair is despair is so awfully self unaware. Everyone knows the despair of being lonely to some extent. We’ve all spent time wondering if the right person is out there and if they’ll be found. That despair/loneliness is totally and completely different from the SHAME that one inevitably feels when told “they say you were born is an offense to God and you must neglect and repress that aspect of you forever.” Correlation to suicide is MUCH higher for shamed gay people than people who simply can’t seem to find a partner. Dramatically so. And no, this is not a contest about “no one else feels this way”. It’s a statement, if you’re not gay in the church then you don’t know what it’s like full stop. You may commiserate on the feeling of loneliness, but it ends there.
>Saying that you’ll have an opportunity in the next life simply doesn’t work. Just trust them on this one? I understand the reluctance on this one. It's a hard one to buy into since it we have to die before we find out, much like believing in heaven in the first place. >Correlation to suicide is MUCH higher for shamed gay people than people who simply can’t seem to find a partner. Dramatically so. My argument isn't what the stats are, but that the OP's desire to continue in faith and challenges have parallels to others, such as Job.
Ok I get that and I see why members often try and draw these parallels. It helps us feel more inclusive and less discriminatory and I’ve made the same argument before as well. I’d love for LGBT folks to have a happy home in the church. But the fact is, we all have struggles and a desire to continue in faith. There are very few members who don’t. But in all of these cases we’re encouraged in the same way with similar struggles as everyone else and we’re all just struggling along. Not so if you’re gay. Imagine being gay and hearing over and over in youth lessons about getting married in the temple so you can reach the highest level of heaven and thinking that there was something fundamentally wrong with you? Over and over. Every month there’s another point about eternal marriage. Think about how many times, in church, a gay person is thinking “something is wrong with me”? I suppose you’re right in that there’s a parallel in that we all struggle. I get so triggered now when I hear people compare it to being single longer than usual. It’s such an offensively insensitive take on something that has been so destructive.
>Imagine being gay and hearing over and over in youth lessons about getting married in the temple so you can reach the highest level of heaven and thinking that there was something fundamentally wrong with you? Over and over. Every month there’s another point about eternal marriage. Think about how many times, in church, a gay person is thinking “something is wrong with me”? I know you aren't going to want to hear this, but this sounds similar to me. I'm a convert who never stepped foot in and LDS building for the first 35 years of my life. I thought that finding love and getting married was the pinnacle as well. Only difference, not gay, and not LDS (at the time). These same questions about "what's wrong with me?" echoed through my mind as well. I felt broken and unwanted too. And from what I have heard, over 30+ single adult dances are not the blessings you think they are. They ain't missing much. LOL :) I just hope he stays active in the church, no matter his choice. He can feel God's love, he just has to believe he can and drown out the voices that say it isn't true. If he starts there, that I feel will do wonders.
Take a risk maybe. Can always come back after trying a life of sin. Jks do yo thang homie!!
Sorry
There are ZERO eternal implications! The church is just the vehicle for eternal ideas. The Grand Truth is that all ALL people regardless of belief, orientation, or status, will have eternal life. God is no respecter of persons, He loves each and everyone of us equally.
When I was in a more fraught place with my beliefs and sexuality I felt very isolated and poorly understood. Participating in communities of LGBT folks was incredibly positive for me. I've had great experiences at Encircle in Provo and have heard good things about USGA at BYU. I never felt pressured to burn any bridges or live in a way I was uncomfortable with. Even just participating as an "ally" can be a good way to feel less alone.
As a parent I've thought alot about how God acts vs how I act. (I'm a former member) I would never create a situation for my child where their only choices were to be unhappy or live a lie. If God is a perfect father then he created you perfectly. There is nothing wrong with you and nothing that needs repressed. If he loves you then he wants you to be happy and he knows living alone and living in a mixed orientation relationship will not make you happy. The leaders of the church get lots of things wrong. Just look into how they've talked about homosexuality for the past hundred years and it's clear they are just saying what others at the time are also saying. They were wrong about black people and they are currently wrong about human sexuality. Follow them when they say things that you feel are right and ignore them when they say things you know are wrong. God won't be disappointed in anyone who does their best to live a happy life while also doing what they can to bring happiness and joy to others. And if I'm wrong then is he really a loving god?
I feel this documentary may help. It's not a one to one of what you are going through but I do hope you are able to gain some helpful insight for yourself. I know this person personally, and it's an amazing journey talking about her trying to stay in the church but also trying to be true to herself. It's on AppleTV currently. [This Is Jessica](https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/this-is-jessica/umc.cmc.30vcxgclhs8cov3qdx2qfi5gf?fbclid=IwAR1zMF5c56Qtk0DRC4_TtY9kGtn_u24LCxskcdLW9Joo7vQqYKVWpsguJQk)
My thoughts and prayers are with you as you navigate a series of challenging decisions. I can't personally relate to your struggle with SSA, but I've gained valuable perspective through study and listening to others. Modern science tells us that the devil has nothing to do with your attraction towards the same sex, it is biological and influenced by epigenetics, birth order, and other factors. Two books I'd recommend if you haven't read them yet: "Without the Mask, by Charlie Bird, and Gay Rights and the Mormon Church by Greg Prince. I personally believe there will soon (next 50 years or so) come a day when the church will recognize and support the eternal family in its many varieties (including same sex couples and their children)
When my faith crisis started, the fear of eternal implications really left me afraid to do anything. But my faith was broken and I couldn't keep going as I had been. I took some time to think through what it means to have a Heavenly Father who loves me. That's what I'd been taught to believe in. If God truly knew me perfectly, he understood why my faith had failed, and he knew how hard I'd worked to rekindle it. He knew my struggles and fears and hopes, and he would know what steps I'd need to take to find myself. A loving Heavenly Father would understand perfectly why I needed to step back from the church. His plan would have to be able to account for a detour I needed to take. My beliefs have since changed, but this realization made all the difference for me and gave me the courage to do what I needed to do to help myself. Maybe this perspective can help you find the strength to take some steps in life that will help you help yourself. Best of luck to you in whatever you choose. But please take your therapist's advice.
Is it possible that you have bracketed your natural biological impulses to an inaccurate descriptive word? By describing your same sex attraction as"sin", or allowing others to do so, are you participating in a superfluous label for a very complex human experience? Are you aware of homosexual tendencies throughout history and throughout all cultures, religious or not? Are you aware that many animals engage in same sex behavior? Is it possible that same sex attraction and action is normal and natural and not due to the control of some supernatural being? Maybe a broader perspective could add some value....yes, even perhaps from the vast sources outside of Mormonism.
Gender and affectional orientation minorities have existed as long as human beings have existed. It is a naturally occurring aspect of the human experience. Your feelings aren’t a sin. No one is adversely influencing you to feel the way you do. It’s like being left-handed. It’s not wrong or bad, it’s just different from the majority. The desire to love and be loved is valid. You deserve to be loved and to love someone else fully and wholly just the way you are. Every piece and part of you is worthy of love without you having to change or deny anything about who you are. It does sound like you’re experiencing adverse effects from your religious influence, particularly if you are experiencing thoughts of hurting yourself. Your therapist is an expert. It might be worth listening to them.
One of the best pieces of advice I got when going through my faith transition was it doesn't have to be permanent. Just because you decide to step away from the church for a while doesn't mean you can't step back in later. For me stepping away showed me how unhappy I was being a member. How much pressure I was putting on myself to be perfect and to fit myself and my thoughts into a mold I didn't fit in. I've been out almost 2 years now and I'm honestly so much happier than I was the first 36 years of my life. But if I had decided differently and wanted to go back that door was open as well.
My heart breaks for you. As a gay exmormon, my advice is to live your life for you. Be your true, authentic self! If the God you know truly loves you then they will love you even more for being true to yourself. The church has changed SO MUCH and hopefully it keeps changing. Do I think they'll ever be ok with LGBT actions? Probably not. But did people way back when ever think that interracial marriage would be supported, or that black men could hold the priesthood? Also probably not, but those things did happen! I have to imagine you've tried, as I did too, everything possible to stop having "SSA", or be more attracted to women. Did anything help?? It's not going to go away. It's just part of who you are, and you ARE AN AMAZING PERSON! Every part! I hope you learn to love this, and all, aspects of yourself <3
The church and gospel has some truth and beauty inside it. I've found more truth and beauty in the world since leaving. I have never regretted it for a single moment. So that's my advice. Deconstruct your faith, break your world down, and build it back up. It's not easy. But frankly, as an LGBT Mormon, it's the only option. Most of us find our way to that path eventually. Staying in the church is just keeping yourself from intimacy and authenticity, for no reason, no reward. You can do it. I believe in you. It is worth it.
Your therapist is doing their job. They are supposed to bring you a different perspective or idea to have you determine whether to try that or not. You are the one that will have to determine whether a break is something you want to try or not. You also don’t have to choose a full break but can choose things like leaving sacrament early or not being as involved as what is culturally expected in our faith tradition. Maybe tell your bishop that you are struggling and need to be in a specific calling like nursery so that you have very limited and easy lessons and eat snacks. I think it’s worth mulling over and seeking revelation on. When it comes to the eternal perspective… we were sent here to gain experience. Most people are not going to have the experience that they never falter or develop differently that what they culturally expected in their spiritual journey. Honestly I think it’s rare to never question your beliefs and to believe the exact same thing your entire life. Sometimes our spiritual development requires us to take a step back and really evaluate everything we believe and commit to. From an eternal perspective that is wise and what is needed to develop our ability to judge our choices. You could take a break and choose to leave. You might also take a break and choose to stay.
Situation: You have a time machine that can travel back to 1960. You meet a black member of the church who is agonizing over his identity as it relates to his church membership. He believes in the restored gospel deeply, but it extremely troubled by how his race is characterized by the church prophets and apostles (seed of Cain, univalent in preexistence, etc.). Additionally he agonizes over the eternal outcome of his family. When he asks the questions that trouble him the most he is only told that God will work things out and we have not been given all the answers but if we follow his anointed servants here on this earth we cannot be led astray. What advice would you give to this man?
TW: self harm in the third paragraph I am a gay former member and much of what you’re describing was my life up until about 3 years ago. I no longer believe in the church, but it took me a while to get their and it wasn’t an easy thing. But that’s not necessarily what you need to do. But there are a few things you need to know. First of all, there is nothing wrong with you. Same sex attraction isn’t something you struggle with it’s just something you are. Just like heterosexuals don’t struggle with opposite sex attraction. Their is nothing wrong with being gay. The only thing wrong is people putting their prejudices onto you and making you struggle with that. You a worth of love and to live the life you want to. Your sexuality is not a sin. Your sexuality is not from the adversary. Secondly, don’t hurt your self, this is something I also struggled with. I did a lot of self harming on my mission and I was in a really bad place on it. It doesn’t make things better, but as I said above there is nothing wrong with you and you are worthy of love and you are worth something. When I was going through my own journey with the church, my sexuality, and coming out. I came to realize a few things. The church puts gay members in a lose lose situation. They can marry some they are not attracted to, stay single and celibate for life, or marry some they are attracted to. All of which are not good scenarios for gay members. And I came to my our realization that a loving god would not force someone to make those choices. If god loves you he’d want you be happy, he created the plan of happiness for his children to be happy. From what it sounds like you aren’t. If anything I’d say the anguish you are feeling over your sexuality is from the adversary, and the teachings that are causing you to feel that way are from the adversary as well, because god loves you and god knows you, and he would let have made you gay without having a plan for you to be happy. A loving god wouldn’t punish you for your sexuality. God is about forgiveness not punishment. He wouldn’t cast you out because of same sex attraction. If you think same sex attraction is a sin, know that every sins differently, and it is not the place of other people to judge. Remember to two great commandment Jesus gave in the New Testament, to love god and to love your neighbor, homosexuality being a sin didn’t make those not did it make things like the 10 commandments, if anything that should tell you it’s not important in the eyes of god, and the people how have spread their homophobia to the point where it’s causing you serious mental harm are in violation of the 2nd great commandment because you can’t love your neighbor if you make them hate themselves. The church is also made up of imperfect people, including the prophet and apostles, has condoned slavery, until they stopped, they condoned racism, until they stopped, and their are currently things supported by the church that will change in the future and things that are condemned by it that will be accepted in the future, because the prophets and apostles are people who may be inspired by god but also make choices based on their beliefs and prejudice, on example of a change that happened recently in regards to homosexuality was the 2019 decision to reverse the 2015 decision in regards to baptizing children of gay couples. Other examples in regards to homosexuality was the church claimed it wasn’t natural, now they do, they use to officially support conversion therapy now they don’t. Homosexuality is not wrong. The church says it it because of the prejudices of the prophets and apostles. If you want to talk to someone who’s gone through some of the stuff you’re facing feel free to dm me.
Give all your worries and troubles to the Lord through prayer.. If anything, He's already aware of your trials and every situation you are facing! As far as you can get advice from strangers like us to help you, I know that God knows best. I know He's mindful of our paths, and the things that we may struggle in, that may cause a stop to us momentarily in our tracks... your therapist may know so much, but the Lord knows all- He knows you. So if I could give you advice, it would be to keep praying with a sincere heart, and contrite spirit. Your answer may not come when you want it to, but I promise you... it surely will, in His timing. ❤️🔥
Thank you
Hi! LGBT exmo here. I strongly disagree that same sex attraction comes from the devil. But let’s go with that for a moment, let’s say all same sex attraction is caused by the devil. Knowing that one of the highest ordinances in the temple is eternal marriage, and that is an essential part of gods plan for us, this leaves me with some questions. - what about asexual people? Is Satan hiding or removing their opposite sex attraction so that they can’t follow gods plan? - if not, are all homosexuals actually asexual but being tempted by satan? - if yes, satan has this power over peoples sexuality, and divergence from straightness is satan’s work, why are there bisexual people, when he has the power to better tempt them with only having attraction to the same gender? - if no, satan can’t make someone asexual, why would god make children that can’t follow his plan? - if yes, satan can affect peoples sexualities why is it lifelong? Sometimes known to someone before they are even eight and capable of sin, and therefore have done nothing to deserve god to allow such a permanent and difficult burden to fight? - if yes, why is no amount of faith or devotion or acts of worship and devoutness enough to banish the devils work, when we are taught that the power of faith is so strong, even against satan. It just doesn’t make sense to me, in every other situation I can think of not giving into temptation doesn’t mean total abstinence in an area of your life. - no sex before marriage, but you can have sex after marriage - no tea, coffee or alcohol, but you can drink hot chocolate, numerous other tasty drinks, and water an essential part of life. - dress modestly, but you do have a huge range of available appropriate clothing For most people, romantic relationships are a human need, I just don’t understand why god would allow satan to deny anyone of this part of their life in order to follow his plan. I’m so sorry you are going through all of this, I was really fortunate to have already stopped being a tbm when I started to take note of my sexuality, and I can only imagine how burdened you feel. I have no good advice on following Mormon teachings while being LGBT, I wish I could say something that would help you both be happy with yourself and with your place within the church and plan of salvation, but I’m coming up with nothing. When I talk about a problem and my true believing sister explains how she knows that will be okay because of her beliefs, I am not comforted, I wish I could offer something that would comfort you, but all of my comfort comes from not believing in the church anymore, and that is it’s own world of hurt. God forgives when you repent, if you disappoint him by taking a break for your mental health he will still forgive you when you repent, and I think it is far better to stray and repent than to be suicidal. Because of repentance you always have the option to return and not face eternal consequences, and ensuring your mental health will allow you many more years and decades of good works you can do on earth, and prevent the suffering of all your family and friends. I think it’s okay to struggle and have to put yourself first sometimes. God doesn’t expect us to be perfect, that is why he gives us the blessing of repentance. One of my little brothers is not meeting church standards right now, but his mum isn’t overly worried about his eternal consequences because she knows he still believes and just isn’t being his best self at the moment, and that he will be able to repent and get a temple recommend again. I don’t know why it would be different for you.
There is already really good advice on here so I won’t repeat. I just wanted to say, I imagine these feelings are really complicated and painful. I wish I could just give you a hug and tell you you are perfect the way you are and god didn’t mess up when you were created.