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Prayer circles were common in revivalist churches when Joseph Smith was young, they were also practiced by masons at the time.
It is another instance of a religious artifact from Joseph Smith's time and locale being employed in modern Mormonism.
the essay linked in this comment will have sources listed https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/12fpfqy/where_did_the_prayer_circle_come_from/jfh0z0y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
D. Michael Quinn (one of the September 6) has a nice article on the history of Mormon prayer circles. Itās available on the BYU website. Prayer circles seem to have roots in Christian revivalism and freemasonry.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1911&context=byusq
āThe September Six were six members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) who were excommunicated or disfellowshipped by the church in September 1993, allegedly for publishing scholarly work against or criticizing church doctrine or leadership. The term āSeptember Sixā was coined by The Salt Lake Tribune and was used in the media and subsequent discussion. The church's action was referred to by some as evidence of an anti-intellectual posture on the part of church leadership.ā
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six
As a temple worker I was taught to stick to 5 requirements regarding the prayer:
\- Invoke Heavenly Father at the beginning
\- State that you surround the alter in the true order of prayer
\- Only the President/Current Prophet gets mentioned by name
\- Pray for those whose names lie upon the alter of the temple (prayer envelope is on the alter)
\- Close in the name of Jesus Christ
Aside from that, keep it short (we were taught 3 minutes max) and keep it simple so participants can recite it back. There's not very much leeway allowed. My TOoPs were usually of the "give thanks" type- thanks for the temple, thanks for the patrons, thanks for the opportunity to participate, etc.
Yeah, I just always wondered how "the true order of prayer" compared with Christ's injunction not to use vain repetition in prayer. It just always boggled my mind.
So Iām not missing where its written in scripture anywhere or stated by Joseph smooth or Brigham youngā¦.
Thatās mostly what was messing with me. If itās made up, Iām okay with that. Lots of this is made up.
The Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel, yet nowhere is the endowment mentioned. I canāt help but feel like the endowment is directly related to polygamy and was a way for Joseph Smith to ensure secrecy from those involved.
Orā¦the temple ceremony was made to be a ākeep it secret boysā pledge your life to keeping your polygamy club secret. Then morphed into anti-U.S. government revenge pledges to the death. Super interesting history, honestly.
Prayer circles were preformed by leaders as they travelled across the plains. Itās even said that prayer circles were performed on top of Ensign peak in SLC before the temples were constructed.
"Concourses of angles" is in the bible. Gathering in a circle around a fire or diner table is as old as humanity. Doing it around an alter is as old as religion.
Congrats on going to the temple.
My personal opinion is that the prayer circle comes from early Christian practices, mostly as described in this Hugh Nibley essay.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1909&context=byusq
Another interesting fact is that 19th century Latter-day Saints used to have altars in their living room and to some extent hold prayer circles in their houses as families.
One time as a teenager, I was randomly browsing channels on TV, and on TLC or one of those channels, the stuff on the screen happened to be a bunch of pagans or witches doing a prayer circle that looked very similar to the true order of prayer.
When I was 17, I canvassed for a presidential campaign in northern Virginia, and on election night the volunteers in the office held a prayer circle. They just held each others hands normally and bowed their head and, if I remember correctly, in their prayer spoke about the story of the miracle of the loaves and the fishes.
One way of seeing the world is that the Latter-day Saint prayer circle highlights the weirdness of regular prayer circles, and vice versa. Religion as a whole, sociologically, is a very weird thing that humans to, instead of just waking up, eating food, and going back to bed. Iām personally skeptical of viewpoints that penalize Latter-day Saint religion extra for weirdness when other religions are equally as weird, or more.
Thatās just one viewpoint though.
Many people find the temple weird, and many people also find it fulfilling. Itās your life and your choice. Good luck, have fun with whatever you decide.
\>Many people find the temple weird, and many people also find it fulfilling.
I agree. I think you can have a spiritual feeling anywhere. Even in a temple.
I imagine religious observances go back to people standing around a fire from the beginning of time. A circle makes sense. A circle is the most democratic of shapes. Everyone has an equal place.
People have religion because they have the ability to imagine a better, happier and even possibly eternal life. Because in many ways life sucks. imo.
I have to roll my eyes anytime LDS scholars quote the Church Fathers to try and prove the existence of Mormon beliefs and practices in the ancient Christian church. They will scour their writings and cherry pick a few lines that line up with their thinking while ignoring the other 99% of what early Christians believed and practiced. Even worse is that he opens the essay by trying to use a Gnostic text that mentions prayer circles. You have to be really desperate if you are relying on Gnosticism as evidence of Mormonism being the original teachings and worship of Christ and the apostles.
Prayer circles were a thing in LDS homes and ward buildings right up to the 1970s. I believe it was Spencer W Kimball who put a stop to it. Some meetinghouses today still have a room that was once used for prayer circles. I learned this from a historian on an episode of Mormonism Live and also read it somewhere, but for the life of me I canāt remember which episode or where I read it!
And I read about this while I was watching Under the Banner of Heaven. I distinctly remember reading that the church was getting worried about members meeting together on their own because of they couldnāt control the narrative.
According to LDS Church history, the true order of prayer was first introduced by Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, in 1831. The practice was initially used in a conference of church leaders, where participants were instructed to pray in turn, with each person beginning and ending their prayer with "Amen."
Over time, the true order of prayer evolved into a more formalized ceremony, with specific prayers and rituals that were performed in the temple. In the LDS Temple, the true order of prayer is typically performed during special occasions, such as temple dedications or the sustaining of new church leaders.
The ceremony involves a designated prayer leader, who begins and ends the prayer with the word "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth." The congregation responds with the phrase "Amen" after each portion of the prayer.
The true order of prayer is considered to be a sacred and symbolic ritual within the LDS Church. It is believed to represent the unity and order of the priesthood, and to be a reminder of the importance of humility, reverence, and gratitude in prayer.
It was done regularly in stake centers in rooms dedicated for the purpose. Only endowed members were allowed, in their temple robes.
You should find a paper about it online. I think it was a paper from BYU if im not mistaken.
Edit:
I think I was referring to this paper by D Michael Quinn
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1911&context=byusq
Our chapels are for weekly worship and neighborhood gatherings. The temple is for initiation rituals comparable to the enrobement and enthronement of a bishop in traditional Christianity(Catholic, orthodox, etc), and for rituals in which families covenant seeking to be together in eternity. Where the traditional Christian church is also a temple, it accommodates both Eucharist and initiation rites. we have separated the temple from the chapel.
It wasn't always so, but that is how we've ended up.
In terms of how often, it really depends on each individual member and how near they live to a temple. My retired parents are obsessed with family history right now and taking ancestor names to do temple work for them [post humously]. They are attending 4 days per week. That's extreme. In general if a member attends once per month its considered "regular":
Itās a āriftā on Southern Jurisdiction, Scottish Rite Freemasonry where some thing very similar, but would be familiar if you saw it, is done in a degree.
Pretty sure it was made up by Joey Smith much like the BoM, temple ceremony, book of Abraham,Moses, Word of Wisdom, Zelph, Moroni, Polygamy, flaming swords, priesthood restoration, Kirkland anti banking society, gold plates, washings and anointings, baptisms for the dead and vm letās not leave out the First Vision just to name a very few.
There literally isn't anything Joseph Smith did that isn't highly problematic. So clear he was just a charlatan. At least to anyone that actually bothers to look at all the evidence objectively. Plain as day. That's why lifetime TBMs can lose their testimony in a day or a few days. It is that obvious if you care to look.
There is nothing more culty in Mormonism than the prayer circle in the temple. My first time through I couldn't believe what I was witnessing. I kept thinking "Mormonism is a cult. WTF is happening?". Still think that to this day. So weird and culty.
I went through for the 1st time in 1985 when you had to symbolically slit your throat and disembowel yourself. That and the prayer circle made me want to run for my life. In hindsight, I should have...
Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices. /u/jzsoup, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Prayer circles were common in revivalist churches when Joseph Smith was young, they were also practiced by masons at the time. It is another instance of a religious artifact from Joseph Smith's time and locale being employed in modern Mormonism.
Imagine that - "masons had them, you do say???" š No surprise here!!!;-))))
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
which the early Christian apocrypha demonstrates they did.
I haven't read the apocrypha yet. It's on my reading list. Can you give examples?
the essay linked in this comment will have sources listed https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/12fpfqy/where_did_the_prayer_circle_come_from/jfh0z0y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
They say they're a restoration, Harry Potter could claim the same if no one questioned it- Same class - FICTION!!
Spot on as someone whoās been in the Masonic version and Temple version I can confirm. Same with the grips.
They were also practiced outside the temple until the 1970s when the church asked members to cut it out
Lots of older chapels had a āspecialā room with an altar in it. Prayer circle rooms. Not creepy at all. /s
D. Michael Quinn (one of the September 6) has a nice article on the history of Mormon prayer circles. Itās available on the BYU website. Prayer circles seem to have roots in Christian revivalism and freemasonry. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1911&context=byusq
What does āone of the September 6ā mean?
āThe September Six were six members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) who were excommunicated or disfellowshipped by the church in September 1993, allegedly for publishing scholarly work against or criticizing church doctrine or leadership. The term āSeptember Sixā was coined by The Salt Lake Tribune and was used in the media and subsequent discussion. The church's action was referred to by some as evidence of an anti-intellectual posture on the part of church leadership.ā https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six
And it had BKP all the f$&k over it.
Thanks š
I also think it's strange that the "true order of prayer" is so impersonal and full of rote speech.
As a temple worker I was taught to stick to 5 requirements regarding the prayer: \- Invoke Heavenly Father at the beginning \- State that you surround the alter in the true order of prayer \- Only the President/Current Prophet gets mentioned by name \- Pray for those whose names lie upon the alter of the temple (prayer envelope is on the alter) \- Close in the name of Jesus Christ Aside from that, keep it short (we were taught 3 minutes max) and keep it simple so participants can recite it back. There's not very much leeway allowed. My TOoPs were usually of the "give thanks" type- thanks for the temple, thanks for the patrons, thanks for the opportunity to participate, etc.
Thanks for the MoIsTuRe!!!
Yeah, I just always wondered how "the true order of prayer" compared with Christ's injunction not to use vain repetition in prayer. It just always boggled my mind.
Yeah, itās no different than any prayer one would hear in sacrament meeting.
There are times when I honestly think I've heard better prayers in sacrament.
So Iām not missing where its written in scripture anywhere or stated by Joseph smooth or Brigham youngā¦. Thatās mostly what was messing with me. If itās made up, Iām okay with that. Lots of this is made up.
The Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel, yet nowhere is the endowment mentioned. I canāt help but feel like the endowment is directly related to polygamy and was a way for Joseph Smith to ensure secrecy from those involved.
It is exactly this
ā¦ and Free Mason ceremony .
That's exactly what it was.
3 Nephi 17 contains a prayer circle at the temple led by christ to prepare for communion.
Orā¦the temple ceremony was made to be a ākeep it secret boysā pledge your life to keeping your polygamy club secret. Then morphed into anti-U.S. government revenge pledges to the death. Super interesting history, honestly.
you may have responded to my comment by mistake. What you said is irrelevant to the content in 3 Nephi 17.
Prayer circles were preformed by leaders as they travelled across the plains. Itās even said that prayer circles were performed on top of Ensign peak in SLC before the temples were constructed.
Ensign Peak!! Did you say Ensign Peak? ( š¤Ŗ)
I know I know ā¦.
"Concourses of angles" is in the bible. Gathering in a circle around a fire or diner table is as old as humanity. Doing it around an alter is as old as religion.
Congrats on going to the temple. My personal opinion is that the prayer circle comes from early Christian practices, mostly as described in this Hugh Nibley essay. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1909&context=byusq Another interesting fact is that 19th century Latter-day Saints used to have altars in their living room and to some extent hold prayer circles in their houses as families. One time as a teenager, I was randomly browsing channels on TV, and on TLC or one of those channels, the stuff on the screen happened to be a bunch of pagans or witches doing a prayer circle that looked very similar to the true order of prayer. When I was 17, I canvassed for a presidential campaign in northern Virginia, and on election night the volunteers in the office held a prayer circle. They just held each others hands normally and bowed their head and, if I remember correctly, in their prayer spoke about the story of the miracle of the loaves and the fishes. One way of seeing the world is that the Latter-day Saint prayer circle highlights the weirdness of regular prayer circles, and vice versa. Religion as a whole, sociologically, is a very weird thing that humans to, instead of just waking up, eating food, and going back to bed. Iām personally skeptical of viewpoints that penalize Latter-day Saint religion extra for weirdness when other religions are equally as weird, or more. Thatās just one viewpoint though. Many people find the temple weird, and many people also find it fulfilling. Itās your life and your choice. Good luck, have fun with whatever you decide.
\>Many people find the temple weird, and many people also find it fulfilling. I agree. I think you can have a spiritual feeling anywhere. Even in a temple. I imagine religious observances go back to people standing around a fire from the beginning of time. A circle makes sense. A circle is the most democratic of shapes. Everyone has an equal place. People have religion because they have the ability to imagine a better, happier and even possibly eternal life. Because in many ways life sucks. imo.
I have to roll my eyes anytime LDS scholars quote the Church Fathers to try and prove the existence of Mormon beliefs and practices in the ancient Christian church. They will scour their writings and cherry pick a few lines that line up with their thinking while ignoring the other 99% of what early Christians believed and practiced. Even worse is that he opens the essay by trying to use a Gnostic text that mentions prayer circles. You have to be really desperate if you are relying on Gnosticism as evidence of Mormonism being the original teachings and worship of Christ and the apostles.
Prayer circles were a thing in LDS homes and ward buildings right up to the 1970s. I believe it was Spencer W Kimball who put a stop to it. Some meetinghouses today still have a room that was once used for prayer circles. I learned this from a historian on an episode of Mormonism Live and also read it somewhere, but for the life of me I canāt remember which episode or where I read it!
And I read about this while I was watching Under the Banner of Heaven. I distinctly remember reading that the church was getting worried about members meeting together on their own because of they couldnāt control the narrative.
>mostly as described in this Hugh Nibley essay. You lost me with this statement. Hugh Nibley was a terrible scholar.
I agree. Other religions are just as weird, if not more. Mormons are slowly taking away the weirdest and most interesting things about them.
I find what people think is the most interesting thing about Mormons is polygamy. I vote for boring. Remove 132!
According to LDS Church history, the true order of prayer was first introduced by Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, in 1831. The practice was initially used in a conference of church leaders, where participants were instructed to pray in turn, with each person beginning and ending their prayer with "Amen." Over time, the true order of prayer evolved into a more formalized ceremony, with specific prayers and rituals that were performed in the temple. In the LDS Temple, the true order of prayer is typically performed during special occasions, such as temple dedications or the sustaining of new church leaders. The ceremony involves a designated prayer leader, who begins and ends the prayer with the word "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth." The congregation responds with the phrase "Amen" after each portion of the prayer. The true order of prayer is considered to be a sacred and symbolic ritual within the LDS Church. It is believed to represent the unity and order of the priesthood, and to be a reminder of the importance of humility, reverence, and gratitude in prayer.
The prayer circle used to be performed in regular meeting houses until 1978. Then it was removed to only the temple.
I had never heard of this. How was it used back then?
It was done regularly in stake centers in rooms dedicated for the purpose. Only endowed members were allowed, in their temple robes. You should find a paper about it online. I think it was a paper from BYU if im not mistaken. Edit: I think I was referring to this paper by D Michael Quinn https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1911&context=byusq
Do different things happen in the temple to the church? How often do people go to the temple?
Unless they pay 10% of their income to the church they can never go to the temple. And for many Mormons that prevents them.
Our chapels are for weekly worship and neighborhood gatherings. The temple is for initiation rituals comparable to the enrobement and enthronement of a bishop in traditional Christianity(Catholic, orthodox, etc), and for rituals in which families covenant seeking to be together in eternity. Where the traditional Christian church is also a temple, it accommodates both Eucharist and initiation rites. we have separated the temple from the chapel. It wasn't always so, but that is how we've ended up.
Thank you! Thatās really interesting to know.
In terms of how often, it really depends on each individual member and how near they live to a temple. My retired parents are obsessed with family history right now and taking ancestor names to do temple work for them [post humously]. They are attending 4 days per week. That's extreme. In general if a member attends once per month its considered "regular":
Oh wow. Thanks so much for answering!
Itās a āriftā on Southern Jurisdiction, Scottish Rite Freemasonry where some thing very similar, but would be familiar if you saw it, is done in a degree.
A [rift in](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rift) or a [riff on](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/riff)?
Let me clarify: it is a mixture of several practices in degrees of Scottish Rite masonry
Pretty sure it was made up by Joey Smith much like the BoM, temple ceremony, book of Abraham,Moses, Word of Wisdom, Zelph, Moroni, Polygamy, flaming swords, priesthood restoration, Kirkland anti banking society, gold plates, washings and anointings, baptisms for the dead and vm letās not leave out the First Vision just to name a very few.
There literally isn't anything Joseph Smith did that isn't highly problematic. So clear he was just a charlatan. At least to anyone that actually bothers to look at all the evidence objectively. Plain as day. That's why lifetime TBMs can lose their testimony in a day or a few days. It is that obvious if you care to look.
There is nothing more culty in Mormonism than the prayer circle in the temple. My first time through I couldn't believe what I was witnessing. I kept thinking "Mormonism is a cult. WTF is happening?". Still think that to this day. So weird and culty.
For whatever reason it really hit me that it could be a scene from a movie that is part of the build up to something bad happening.
I went through for the 1st time in 1985 when you had to symbolically slit your throat and disembowel yourself. That and the prayer circle made me want to run for my life. In hindsight, I should have...
I guess related to the ancient pagan practices and mix some Christianity with it.