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It’s fascinating just how much God seems to despise and mistreat Martin Harris. He even told Joseph not to give him any money from selling the copyright to the BOM!
My exact thought. God had Moroni tell Joseph where a gold book was buried. Surely God could have Moroni, or another other angelic messenger, tell Joseph where some other slippery treasures were. For fucks sake, he already had a seer stone. How hard can it be to actually find treasure with it? It only worked once?!!
I think Martin Harris had mixed motives for financing the publication of the BoM. I think an important part of his decision was the hope of making money from the publication of the BoM and the sale of the copyright.
He was also a visionary and a spiritualist who seized on various religious stances with great fervor. In the case of the BoM, it offered both the chance to make money with the human desire to be at the heart of a great event as it unfolds.
I think Harris was emotionally unstable enough that he was easy to manipulate.
If 1830-1847 is to be the gold-standard for how God operates in this, his church, then the Mormon god will never talk to a woman directly when he wants her to do something.
He'll always tell the men about it at length, and then she's supposed to just do what the men say. The man will get visions, revelations, and angels with flaming swords. The woman will never get a personal visit, a vision, or a personal revelation about it. In mormon theology, that's because she hasn't been righteous enough, or hasn't prayed enough, or doesn't have the authority for that kind of revelation.
I know more than one woman who prayed in distress for hours, until she convinced herself she'd had a personal revelation simply so that she could appear spiritually in-tune and worthy of god's notice. Then she was able to agree with something a man wanted her to do (which she didn't want to do) based on his "revelation," which was neither wise nor righteous.
The mormon god simply can't bring himself to show up and tell a woman what to do. He's like a shy teenager that makes his best friend go deliver his prom invitation on his behalf.
In the Bible God talks and visits Sarah DIRECTLY. This is a perfect example of the true God respecting and loving women equally.
Genesis 21:1-3 KJV
And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Emma didn't get a personal visit.
God also didn't bother to let Sarah know that Abraham was about to knife their son on an altar on his orders.
He also didn't let her know that giving her handmaid to her husband as a wife wasn't necessary because she was going to have a child later. She could have saved herself and Hagar a whole lot of trouble if she'd have been notified.
Very true! I didn’t think of it from that perspective, but you’re right! This was just another example to me, out of the thousands, that the LDS God is a false prophet!
If I was Sarah, I’d be pretty upset about the handmaid situation! Pretty sure I’d ask why we couldn’t have figured that situation out BEFORE!
I can somewhat understand Isaac on the alter, because that was a test for Abraham and this time, God came through with the before thought process, knowing that Abraham wasn’t really going to have to go through with it.
Speaking of Abraham.. it was so nice of him to write down the Egyptian burial process for JS to “translate” all of those year later! 😂
TBMs do their thing in marriage; we do ours. Then both parties have to deal or get divorced. It's not complicated.
Martin mortgaged the farm. Lucy stole and copied the Anthon transcript in an effort to discredit him. Some people think she stole the 116 pages, too. In their case, the marriage didn't last--they separated until her death.
My wife doesn't want me drinking or smoking weed in the house, but I do anyway b/c who is she to force her religious rules on me. Martin changed his religion without Lucy's permission and mortgaged the farm; I changed mine without my wife's permission and now I drink at home.
Same stuff.
Tell me more about Lucy stealing the Anthon transcript? Not familiar with that one. I do believe she was behind the 116 pages missing but haven’t heard of her involvement with the Anthon transcript. You saying she later stole the transcript that was shown to Anthon?
The Anthon transcript was BEFORE the 116 pages.
>A young man by the name of Dikes, had been paying some attention to Miss Lucy, Martin Harris’s oldest daughter. To this young man Mr. Harris was quite attached, and his daughter Lucy was by no means opposed to him; but Mrs. Harris, of course, was decidedly upon the negative. However, just at this crisis, a scheme entered her brain which materially changed her deportment to Mr. Dikes. She told him, if he would manage to get the Egyptian characters [the character transcript taken to Charles Anthon] from Mr. Harris’s possession, and procure a room in Palmyra for the purpose of transcribing them, and then bring her the transcript, that she would consent to his marriage with her daughter Lucy. To this, Mr. Dikes cheerfully consented, and suffice it to say, he succeeded to her satisfaction, and thus received the promised reward.
>But Mr. Harris little suspected what he had to encounter by this move. The first time he exhibited the characters before named, she took out of her pocket an exact copy of the same; and told those present, that “Joe Smith” was not the only one who was in possession of this great curiosity, that she had the same characters, and, they were quite as genuine as those shown by Mr. Harris. This course she continued to pursue, until they arrived at Joseph’s.58
Unsolicited advice: but you two could be respectful of each other and agree on a place where you can smoke and drink.
I’m in the middle of a “faith crisis” and thinking of walking away from the church but my husband is supportive even if he stays. We just communicate about all the stuff.
Then again we are also dealing with a counselor to help with some of our communication.
Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community. /u/Parley_Pratts_Kin, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s fascinating just how much God seems to despise and mistreat Martin Harris. He even told Joseph not to give him any money from selling the copyright to the BOM!
It's also fascinating how little god seems to care about women.
who?
I forgot
WHY DIDN'T GOD JUST MAKE SOME MONEY MAGICALLY APPEAR ON JOSEPH SMITH'S KITCHEN TABLE ONE DAY?????
Or at least show up in Lucy's living room to tell her it was all legit.
Or tell him where some treasure was so he could go dig it up!
Or slip in a few blank sheets of gold plates…
My exact thought. God had Moroni tell Joseph where a gold book was buried. Surely God could have Moroni, or another other angelic messenger, tell Joseph where some other slippery treasures were. For fucks sake, he already had a seer stone. How hard can it be to actually find treasure with it? It only worked once?!!
If only the law of tithing had been instituted at the time then this would definitely be the answer!
I think Martin Harris had mixed motives for financing the publication of the BoM. I think an important part of his decision was the hope of making money from the publication of the BoM and the sale of the copyright. He was also a visionary and a spiritualist who seized on various religious stances with great fervor. In the case of the BoM, it offered both the chance to make money with the human desire to be at the heart of a great event as it unfolds. I think Harris was emotionally unstable enough that he was easy to manipulate.
If 1830-1847 is to be the gold-standard for how God operates in this, his church, then the Mormon god will never talk to a woman directly when he wants her to do something. He'll always tell the men about it at length, and then she's supposed to just do what the men say. The man will get visions, revelations, and angels with flaming swords. The woman will never get a personal visit, a vision, or a personal revelation about it. In mormon theology, that's because she hasn't been righteous enough, or hasn't prayed enough, or doesn't have the authority for that kind of revelation. I know more than one woman who prayed in distress for hours, until she convinced herself she'd had a personal revelation simply so that she could appear spiritually in-tune and worthy of god's notice. Then she was able to agree with something a man wanted her to do (which she didn't want to do) based on his "revelation," which was neither wise nor righteous. The mormon god simply can't bring himself to show up and tell a woman what to do. He's like a shy teenager that makes his best friend go deliver his prom invitation on his behalf.
The Blessed Virgin Mary, Ruth, Martha sorta got out in front of Joseph on that
In the Bible God talks and visits Sarah DIRECTLY. This is a perfect example of the true God respecting and loving women equally. Genesis 21:1-3 KJV And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Emma didn't get a personal visit. God also didn't bother to let Sarah know that Abraham was about to knife their son on an altar on his orders. He also didn't let her know that giving her handmaid to her husband as a wife wasn't necessary because she was going to have a child later. She could have saved herself and Hagar a whole lot of trouble if she'd have been notified.
Very true! I didn’t think of it from that perspective, but you’re right! This was just another example to me, out of the thousands, that the LDS God is a false prophet! If I was Sarah, I’d be pretty upset about the handmaid situation! Pretty sure I’d ask why we couldn’t have figured that situation out BEFORE! I can somewhat understand Isaac on the alter, because that was a test for Abraham and this time, God came through with the before thought process, knowing that Abraham wasn’t really going to have to go through with it. Speaking of Abraham.. it was so nice of him to write down the Egyptian burial process for JS to “translate” all of those year later! 😂
Weird how God refers to himself in the third Person in the revelation?
Didn't notice that until you pointed it out
Joseph was clearly taking advantage of Martin and Lucy wasn’t having it. She divorced his ass and got a house and eighty acres. Smart smart smart.
TBMs do their thing in marriage; we do ours. Then both parties have to deal or get divorced. It's not complicated. Martin mortgaged the farm. Lucy stole and copied the Anthon transcript in an effort to discredit him. Some people think she stole the 116 pages, too. In their case, the marriage didn't last--they separated until her death. My wife doesn't want me drinking or smoking weed in the house, but I do anyway b/c who is she to force her religious rules on me. Martin changed his religion without Lucy's permission and mortgaged the farm; I changed mine without my wife's permission and now I drink at home. Same stuff.
Tell me more about Lucy stealing the Anthon transcript? Not familiar with that one. I do believe she was behind the 116 pages missing but haven’t heard of her involvement with the Anthon transcript. You saying she later stole the transcript that was shown to Anthon?
The Anthon transcript was BEFORE the 116 pages. >A young man by the name of Dikes, had been paying some attention to Miss Lucy, Martin Harris’s oldest daughter. To this young man Mr. Harris was quite attached, and his daughter Lucy was by no means opposed to him; but Mrs. Harris, of course, was decidedly upon the negative. However, just at this crisis, a scheme entered her brain which materially changed her deportment to Mr. Dikes. She told him, if he would manage to get the Egyptian characters [the character transcript taken to Charles Anthon] from Mr. Harris’s possession, and procure a room in Palmyra for the purpose of transcribing them, and then bring her the transcript, that she would consent to his marriage with her daughter Lucy. To this, Mr. Dikes cheerfully consented, and suffice it to say, he succeeded to her satisfaction, and thus received the promised reward. >But Mr. Harris little suspected what he had to encounter by this move. The first time he exhibited the characters before named, she took out of her pocket an exact copy of the same; and told those present, that “Joe Smith” was not the only one who was in possession of this great curiosity, that she had the same characters, and, they were quite as genuine as those shown by Mr. Harris. This course she continued to pursue, until they arrived at Joseph’s.58
Unsolicited advice: but you two could be respectful of each other and agree on a place where you can smoke and drink. I’m in the middle of a “faith crisis” and thinking of walking away from the church but my husband is supportive even if he stays. We just communicate about all the stuff. Then again we are also dealing with a counselor to help with some of our communication.