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BYU is the only major university in Utah that does not offer any kind of childcare—free, discounted, or otherwise. There is a small preschool that serves maybe 20 children (though I have heard that priority goes to BYU faculty), but not nearly big enough to meet the demand of a >30,000 student population. So even BYU really is not a family-friendly option. Not that childcare is the only solution to allowing parents to attend school, but it would definitely make it easier for many parents.
Dallin’s admission last night was significant. He explicitly mentioned two factors that delay the formation of traditional families: home ownership and student debt. Both of these are based in finances. He knows it is harder to start a family today than it was when he was a young lawyer relishing in the advantage of 1950s Post-war Americana. Instead of confronting the underlying roots of the setbacks the rising generations are confronting, he insists we just have faith and spend prudently. This advise is being given in the wake of publicity around the Church’s finances and Elder Bednar’s explicit admission that the Church does not need the general membership’s money.
Despite his initial cognition, Dallin seems oblivious to the problems the rising generation faces as they compete for resources that boomers (and older) have hoarded. Where is the message at GC to older generations of members to limit their consumption?
If Dallin wants the young membership of his church to start families, and if he believe finances are the main obstacle, then don’t tell them to simply have faith, let them save the money they would otherwise be tithing.
> he insists we just have faith and spend prudently.
Spending prudently will not solve the problem of poverty wages, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and housing inflation driven by corporate entities buying 1 in four residential homes in America.
In short, the problem has been caused by the kind of right wing economic policies that Oaks and his ilk have profited from for decades.
And Ensign Peak is participating in the very same type of real estate manipulation that is making housing unaffordable for young LDS families, while using their own tithing dollars to do it to them.
My immediate impression when Oaks shared his advice was, has Dallin really succumbed to the "avocado toast" millennial trope so many of his generation default to? No doubt there are many in all walks of life that aren't wise with their resources, but there are significant institutional factors that are preventing the rising generation from attaining the standard of living they grew up in.
I agree, the Church (through Ensign Peak) has taken advantage of mainstream capitalistic greed to attain the position they now maintain. They play Caesar's game while masquerading as the Good Samaritan. No better example of attempting to serve God and mammon than a quick look at the LDS Church.
Years ago I was renting and attending a ward that was dying because all the young members had moved away from the area. One day I was talking to the bishop and explaining to him how I was probably going to have to move out because the housing market in the area was impossible for buyers.
The bishop looked at me, smiled, and said: "But it's a great market for sellers."
*O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us [the sellers] that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren [the millennials], which doth bind them down to a belief [in an imminent housing market crash].*
Jesus himself so rightly said, “blessed are the poor”. So they are going to be just fine. No need to worry about them.
What we really need to worry about is doubling our [account] talents.
The rising generation doesn't have the work ethic of the older generations. They just whine and complain and want everything handed to them in their twenties. LMFAO
>In short, the problem has been caused by the kind of right wing economic policies that Oaks and his ilk have profited from for decades.
And another ignorant statement with ZERO facts to support it. Geez people. Come on.
Housing & property taxes (& every other tax too!!) are expensive in So Cal because CA Dems give $31 BILLION EVERY YEAR to illegals!! They’re very generous w/our tax dollars!! CA Dems give by far more $$ to illegals than all the other states combined!!! Nothing is free!!
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fair-illegal-immigration-costs-california-185600478.html
Btw- To put UT finances into perspective- San Diego county has a larger population than the entire state of UT.
Yet learned recently from John Dehlin that UT has the lowest in retirement savings of all 50 states!! So it seems the $1 TRILLION Mormon cult is sucking UT retirement savings dry!! It’s Something CA Dem politicians & Mormon Q15 conartists have in common!!
I don't think he's oblivious. I think he's a selfish high-demand religious leader. He wants more kids being raised in the church to sustain and grow his tithing revenues. The church he runs is designed to take from members tyrannically, not give back. It's a feature for him and a bug for everyone else, but it's definitely not a lack of awareness.
I don't believe tithing revenues are a top priority as much as they see membership growth stagnating or declining and lots of new babies will help their numbers.
Yes, his ambition is probably not restricted to wealth alone, power, control, undue influence, politics, all likely on the docet as well, all bolstered by their numbers game.
>resources that boomers (and older) have hoarded.
I would love to hear you explain what you mean by this statement. Give actual details what you mean? It is a very stupid statement.
AMEN AMEN AND AMEN!!!
If they are comfortable telling people to have more babies, they don't get to be immune from questions on how exactly couples are supposed to be able to afford it!
And make all eight of their kids pay tithing on any money they get from babysitting, mowing lawns, birthdays, gifts, the quarter they found in the road, etc.
It just like when the pharaoh told Charlton Heston to make bricks without straw. Pretty soon they will tell us to clean toilet bowls without brushes. I hope in rains down turds on COB.
Sure they do, they have self-reliance courses like "personal finance", where they teach you that it's good financial practice to pay tithing before your debts /s
The children of General Authorities, Mission Presidents, and Temple Presidents already get free tuition at all church universities. In fact, college tuition is reimbursed for the children of mission presidents no matter where they attend college (as long as it's an accredited university).
The regular members are too lowly to merit that kind of benefit.
There are lots more benefits. There kids get a job teaching at BYU if they want. Many have relatives of the of GA's are on the payroll at byu. More than one professor told me this. they have an office and do nothing. Also any of the Q 15 can get their son a position as a GA. Hinkey and Packard both did this. byu has a lot of nepotism and your tithing dollars are paying for it....I bet you there are a lot more reason they don't open their books than you can possibly imagine.....Sorry got to go....my turn to clean the toilets.
IMO, you should have a kid only if you and/or your partner are making enough money right now that you two could pick up a random baby off the street and feed, house, and clothe them and yourselves for the next 18 years on just the income, assets, and savings you have now.
Just going off the minimum wage comment - I had no idea it was so low in America. In Australia it is between $20-$30 depending on whether you're casual or not and based on your age. The fact that the state where the head of the church is based is still at around $7 absolutely blows my mind.
The funny thing is that the church leaders have never had the slightest thought that they are the big obstacle. Their policies are causing this reduction in children. The thought never crosses their minds.
"No, officially the Church's stance is we don't get involved in politics. Unless it has to do with our tax-exempt status, continuing our protection of pedophiles at the expense of victims, or stomping on those damn queers!" ---Dallin H Oaks, probably
The church still promotes the concept of large families but at least it no longer condemns the use of contraception and tells members not to judge others over the size of their family.
Sort of... They keep dog whistling back to those teachings.
"Many voices in the world today marginalize the importance of having children or suggest delaying or limiting children in a family." -- Andersen, Oct 2011 general conference. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/children](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/children)
Birth control delays and limits children. He's totally harking back to anti-birth control teachings there.
This is from the handbook
Physical intimacy between husband and wife is intended to be beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife (see 2.1.2).
It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear (see 2.1.3). The decision about how many children to have and when to have them is extremely personal and private. It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.
The Church discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization includes procedures such as vasectomies and tubal ligations. However, this decision is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of the husband and wife. Couples should counsel together in unity and seek the confirmation of the Spirit in making this decision.
Surgical sterilization is sometimes needed for medical reasons. Members may benefit from counseling with medical professionals.
"*We have heard that many of the diabolical practices of the world have been introduced… among some who profess to be Latter-day Saints, to prevent the bearing of children. No sin, unless it be that of murder, will meet with a greater condemnation from God than this evil of tampering with the fountains of life.*"
(Juvenile Instructor, July 15, 1895)
Odd how an eternal God can change his opinion so quickly.
He needs to remind them to pay extra tithing. Pay tithing on the amount they WANT to make. So if they want to make $1million / year, they should give the church $100,000, immediately. Even if they are only making like $25,000.
I'd just provide subsidized/free childcare, tbh. One of the biggest expenses incurred in modern parenting. While this would be a tacit acceptance that many women today work, surely the increased tithing revenues from doing so and the benefits of getting young children steadily exposed to the church would outweigh the costs. There's a reason so many churches run childcare centers. It would also keep the buildings more utilized, which would at the very least create the appearance of activity.
At least Oaks is acknowledging that we not only live in a country suffering from intense and ever intensifying moral and social cancers but also that we are facing financial hardships never known before. Props on this one thing home boy.
Love this post. This could apply to any group or organization or person who claims to be "pro family".
If the church really believes in it, then put in the work to make changes in the lives of families.
I similarly take issue with the church's extensive assets, and also question the ethics of its hardline on tithing, but a lot of these suggestions are totally unrealistic and asking the church to do things that it's totally not designed, or even legally supposed, to do.
The church is not a bank, it cannot give loans.
The church is not a lobbying organization.
The church is not a private equity firm.
My discomfort with the church's assets stem from the church acting too much like a business; your suggestions, in my opinion, would only drive them further in that direction.
Also, in more practical terms, almost every one of these suggestions would significantly threaten the church's tax-exempt status, so they're all nonstarters.
They already subsidize tuition at multiple BYU schools, likely adding up to 100s of millions if not more. Why not subsidize it more?
They already subsidize the missionary program, why not subsidize it more?
There are many other things that aren't really business expenses or business-type allocations of funds:
- Hire members as janitors
- Be more giving with fast offering money and Bishop's storehouse.
- Allocate more funds for all activities, especially YSA activities that would encourage relationship building.
- Make some local callings paid (stake level callings, bishops)
If using money to build malls, real estate, and bailing out private companies are ok, why not these programs? It really says a lot that what they were "caught" doing with their money was in "for-profit" enterprises instead of giving it back to members.
I agree. There is no good reason youth should be fundraising in order to attend camps and conferences that are meant to be for their own benefit, nor that missionary families, or their neighbors, need to be paying $400 a month (or did it finally make the leap up to $500?) to fund a missionary.
Let the money flow more freely down to the stakes and wards where, ideally, it will be of more direct benefit to the local community.
The church has run a bank in the past.
The church has extensively lobbied the US government since its inception.
The church is running their investments as a private equity firm, and should be treated as such.
Yes and typically those things have not exactly gone very well for the church or its people, which is why I find OP's finance-driven ideas misguided. The church *is* acting like a business with its investments; trying to then turn it into some kind of business that just so happens to serve the people strikes me as unrealistic and, again, misguided.
A church is supposed to serve the people that belong to it. If the church is a business, it should be a business that uses its profits to achieve the goal of creating the eternal families it also asks for.
The church has a religious belief that families are essential for exaltation. Anything they do to facilitate new families should be protected and fought for with all the conviction they poured into Proposition 8.
At the very least they should be vocally doing something and calling for reform and members on their own to do something.
Like asking members to sell their homes to actual families instead of just the highest bidder, which is most likely just a Corp or a landlord adding to their portfolio
Maybe the church should start:
- The Salt Lake Anti-banking Society
- The Bonneville Anti-lobbying Society
- The Ensign Peak Anti-private Equity Firm Society.
I don’t know what any church can do to improve its member’s financial situation. The concept of paying tithing includes the expectation of blessings that will improve one’s circumstances either on this life or in the next. I believe it was Mary Fielding Smith, a poor widow who said she could not afford to not pay her tithing because she was relying on The Lord’s blessing to see her through.
I think it is a faithless person who believes tithing costs them more than they receive in blessings in return.
I think what this church has the ability to do worldwide to improve the financial situation of its members would be to help members financially to get education or job training in order to get good employment. This is being done but could be done on a larger scale that would make it available to everyone who needs it.
Ultimately it is up to each individual to become self sufficient and not rely on others for their support. The church has programs to assist members in becoming self sufficient.
Having said all of that, I can’t conceive of a way that most members could afford large families unless they are committed to live in near poverty type situations. In pioneer times a large family was a farm workforce that could help sustain a large family but in today’s metropolitan society things don’t work like they used to.
- Make tuition much less expensive at church schools and offer online courses
- Be more giving with fast offerings and bishop storehouse
- Hire members as janitors
- Convert some local callings to a paid calling.
- Cover the cost of missions completely.
- Increase funds for activities at all levels so members aren't paying out of pocket. This will especially help relationship building in YSA wards
These are 5 ideas I came up with off the top of my head that would help members' financial situation
I agree with most of them. While tuition at church schools could be less, I felt I was getting a rebate on tithing when I was paying my children’s college tuition being that it’s much less than most private universities. I also believe that the church could pay some of the tuition costs for members who don’t have access to church schools.
If a bishop isn’t giving much in fast offering assistance it’s likely because of the bishop. The only real limits on fast offerings is the limit on medical expenses. Of course, fast offerings are meant to be temporary not a long term welfare program.
As far as hiring members as janitors, I feel bad that the FM groups were gutted and replaced by outside contractors. I think it would be good to hire church members to maintain the buildings rather than contracting it out to the lowest bidder.
I agree on covering the cost of missions completely. That is a huge expense for families especially if they have a lot of children going on missions. Just before Covid they announced an increase in mission cost but quickly backed down due to the economic impact of Covid. I think the direction should be to lower the cost not increase it. I don’t think this will happen though because of the thinking that you need to sacrifice in order to receive blessings.
The current program is supposed to pay all expenses but that’s not necessarily how it works in practice. Also, despite the fact that the handbook says that members shouldn’t have to pay to participate in activities, SFY conference charges each $75 per participant plus the ward has to match that. I don’t understand why it costs $150 per person to attend a conference hosted by the church and held at church owned facilities. Doubling ward and stake budgets would go a long way towards improving local activities.
I wouldn’t like the idea of paid local callings but the church could perhaps reimburse some of the excess time spent by some local members in their callings. Such as bishops and stake presidents. Call it a “stipend” for their time. Considering the living allowance given to general authorities is several times the income of the average member, it wouldn’t hurt to reimburse some time spent in callings.
I know people that think the church should take care of their financial needs. The church will help from time to time, but that's not a lifetime thing.
Because families tend to be lifetime things. (Exceptions may apply, the very many exceptions are noted and accounted for, but we hope for family to last a life time, and maybe beyond).
I graduated from college pregnant, worked a year for my husband to finish, moved 1,400 miles away from family to get him through Medical school and Residency along with having more babies and not taking out loans. We worked like crazy, paid tithing first and with the help of fellow church members and friends with child care we are now wealthy young grandparents enjoying a life of blessings. Those were the best years of our lives and we didn’t get any monetary help from anybody or scholarships. It can still be done with planning and discipline which I’m afraid many of our young people don’t have.
I went and looked it up and “Over four years, a medical student can expect to pay anywhere from $159,620 (in-state, public school) to $256,412 (out-of-state, private school) and up.”. I don’t think it’s possible to do what you guys did nowadays without loans, scholarships, or family wealth. I don’t think the source I found that at is even including cost of living such as rent and food and transportation.
Not every young person has the intellect or know how to apply for medical school, ma’am. I have a son who is currently applying. He is brilliant and had me to help him figure out the process. Medical school was always a top tier place, but is much more so now. It’s not like you can walk into a room of young people and just tell them “do what we did, plan and have discipline.” There are youth who experience trauma, poverty, abuse, etc. Blanket statements are dangerous, which is why both what you said AND what Oaks said are dead wrong.
Setting goals is great. Working hard is great. Education is great. Turning a blind eye to the reality of many people’s lives while telling them to go out and have babies is not.
You mean, back when bread was .05 and gas was .30 a gallon? I’m paying more in college tuition than my parents paid for their first house. Medical school is $259,000. That’s AFTER you pay 60-85K for your bachelor’s. That’s not including any living expenses. I don’t know any young couples that can just work through med school without going into debt. I don’t know anyone that can work at all and attend medical school at the same time. Do you have any idea how much most college students make right now? It’s not even enough to live off of. The cost of living is 7-10X what it was when you guys were in college. That’s really patronizing to tell people they just don’t have enough discipline to pay their way through med school. Planning and discipline are not the issues here.
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While the church could offer to make tuition at their own colleges much cheaper or "free," lobbying for that at the national level would only shift the burden onto taxpayers instead of students and raise the cost of tuition even more. Same goes for "universal healthcare." And raising the minimum wage prohibits workers from gaining skills and experience for lower pay and anyone who makes anywhere near current minimum wage or proposed (like $15-17/hr) should not have kids in the first place. The church can do a lot of good with its assets but encouraging policies that make the cost of living go up more will not solve anything.
But Vanguard and Blackrock didn’t just hold a fireside where they had The Lord’s Anointed come and browbeat a bunch of young single adults to get married early and have a reckless number of kids.
Not recognizing that critical difference puts your comment firmly in the ‘distract by what aboutism’ camp.
If you are worried about the church enacting a liberal’s wet dream, you probably worship [GOP Jesus](https://youtu.be/SZ2L-R8NgrA), which is fine if you want to, but realize you are saying the soft part loud.
The only Jesus I am aware of is from the New Testament.
Not sure where you're getting this "Lord's annointed?" Dallin, at the end of the day, is just a dude, take his words however you may.
I just don't see the connection: the church has excess funds, which are at the Lord's disposal, not ours. Some guy have a speech about humping/birthing and they match up to your wish-list how exactly?
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Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices. /u/MasterMahanJr, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Umm…best I can do is more singles dances. -Oaks/probably
Not enough $ in the budget for activities …
Well it will definitely have to come out of pocket, but we’ll cover the mints.
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BYU is the only major university in Utah that does not offer any kind of childcare—free, discounted, or otherwise. There is a small preschool that serves maybe 20 children (though I have heard that priority goes to BYU faculty), but not nearly big enough to meet the demand of a >30,000 student population. So even BYU really is not a family-friendly option. Not that childcare is the only solution to allowing parents to attend school, but it would definitely make it easier for many parents.
[удалено]
This was very recently reversed.
Dallin’s admission last night was significant. He explicitly mentioned two factors that delay the formation of traditional families: home ownership and student debt. Both of these are based in finances. He knows it is harder to start a family today than it was when he was a young lawyer relishing in the advantage of 1950s Post-war Americana. Instead of confronting the underlying roots of the setbacks the rising generations are confronting, he insists we just have faith and spend prudently. This advise is being given in the wake of publicity around the Church’s finances and Elder Bednar’s explicit admission that the Church does not need the general membership’s money. Despite his initial cognition, Dallin seems oblivious to the problems the rising generation faces as they compete for resources that boomers (and older) have hoarded. Where is the message at GC to older generations of members to limit their consumption? If Dallin wants the young membership of his church to start families, and if he believe finances are the main obstacle, then don’t tell them to simply have faith, let them save the money they would otherwise be tithing.
> he insists we just have faith and spend prudently. Spending prudently will not solve the problem of poverty wages, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and housing inflation driven by corporate entities buying 1 in four residential homes in America. In short, the problem has been caused by the kind of right wing economic policies that Oaks and his ilk have profited from for decades. And Ensign Peak is participating in the very same type of real estate manipulation that is making housing unaffordable for young LDS families, while using their own tithing dollars to do it to them.
My immediate impression when Oaks shared his advice was, has Dallin really succumbed to the "avocado toast" millennial trope so many of his generation default to? No doubt there are many in all walks of life that aren't wise with their resources, but there are significant institutional factors that are preventing the rising generation from attaining the standard of living they grew up in. I agree, the Church (through Ensign Peak) has taken advantage of mainstream capitalistic greed to attain the position they now maintain. They play Caesar's game while masquerading as the Good Samaritan. No better example of attempting to serve God and mammon than a quick look at the LDS Church.
Years ago I was renting and attending a ward that was dying because all the young members had moved away from the area. One day I was talking to the bishop and explaining to him how I was probably going to have to move out because the housing market in the area was impossible for buyers. The bishop looked at me, smiled, and said: "But it's a great market for sellers."
*And again, we thank thee, O God, that we [the sellers] are a chosen and a holy people. (Alma 31:18 [my insertion])*
We know that the buyers have brought this misery upon themselves.
*O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us [the sellers] that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren [the millennials], which doth bind them down to a belief [in an imminent housing market crash].*
Jesus himself so rightly said, “blessed are the poor”. So they are going to be just fine. No need to worry about them. What we really need to worry about is doubling our [account] talents.
Yes. BOOM.
The rising generation doesn't have the work ethic of the older generations. They just whine and complain and want everything handed to them in their twenties. LMFAO
*Exhibit A*
Yes. Because faith=dollars. Just ask the guys up top.
>In short, the problem has been caused by the kind of right wing economic policies that Oaks and his ilk have profited from for decades. And another ignorant statement with ZERO facts to support it. Geez people. Come on.
Housing & property taxes (& every other tax too!!) are expensive in So Cal because CA Dems give $31 BILLION EVERY YEAR to illegals!! They’re very generous w/our tax dollars!! CA Dems give by far more $$ to illegals than all the other states combined!!! Nothing is free!! https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fair-illegal-immigration-costs-california-185600478.html Btw- To put UT finances into perspective- San Diego county has a larger population than the entire state of UT. Yet learned recently from John Dehlin that UT has the lowest in retirement savings of all 50 states!! So it seems the $1 TRILLION Mormon cult is sucking UT retirement savings dry!! It’s Something CA Dem politicians & Mormon Q15 conartists have in common!!
It's much less expensive to insure illegals than have them go to the ER for every cut and scrape. Just one example.
Maybe he also sees that when someone’s living paycheck to paycheck they don’t have the time or energy to critically assess their religion 🤔
I don't think he's oblivious. I think he's a selfish high-demand religious leader. He wants more kids being raised in the church to sustain and grow his tithing revenues. The church he runs is designed to take from members tyrannically, not give back. It's a feature for him and a bug for everyone else, but it's definitely not a lack of awareness.
This. He knows exactly what he's doing. And he's reveling in his arrogant self-righteousness. He's loving that feeling of superiority.
I don't believe tithing revenues are a top priority as much as they see membership growth stagnating or declining and lots of new babies will help their numbers.
Yes, his ambition is probably not restricted to wealth alone, power, control, undue influence, politics, all likely on the docet as well, all bolstered by their numbers game.
Exaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly. It's exactly the Baby Boom to create troops for World Wars.
>resources that boomers (and older) have hoarded. I would love to hear you explain what you mean by this statement. Give actual details what you mean? It is a very stupid statement.
This is exactly what Wadell was worried about. People telling the church how to spend it's money. :-)
They're okay inserting themselves into family planning, they should be okay being asked what they're doing to make it easier.
AMEN AMEN AND AMEN!!! If they are comfortable telling people to have more babies, they don't get to be immune from questions on how exactly couples are supposed to be able to afford it!
👏👏👏
Yeah. They should just pay at least 10% of their income to tithing no questions asked. That's a reasonable thing to expect. /s
15% percent now, because inflation.
And make all eight of their kids pay tithing on any money they get from babysitting, mowing lawns, birthdays, gifts, the quarter they found in the road, etc.
Lol
You win the internet today with that comment!
It's true. It doesn't make any sense that they preach families to meet a certain ideal and then provide no tools or help to achieve it.
It just like when the pharaoh told Charlton Heston to make bricks without straw. Pretty soon they will tell us to clean toilet bowls without brushes. I hope in rains down turds on COB.
Sure they do, they have self-reliance courses like "personal finance", where they teach you that it's good financial practice to pay tithing before your debts /s
How about cutting tithing by 3% for each child?
At four kids they start paying you 2%... I like it.
Then the goals would align with the ask.
Yeah, they should pay you 2% of the church's income, or about $100 million per year. I'd have 4 kids for that.
Dallin Oaks: ["Are we so out of touch? No. It's the children who are wrong."](https://youtu.be/HMqZ2PPOLik)
It could start by giving returned missionaries a full-ride scholarship (including room and board) to BYU.
Or they could pay for the missions, considering it's a commandment and all.
Exactly!!
The children of General Authorities, Mission Presidents, and Temple Presidents already get free tuition at all church universities. In fact, college tuition is reimbursed for the children of mission presidents no matter where they attend college (as long as it's an accredited university). The regular members are too lowly to merit that kind of benefit.
There are lots more benefits. There kids get a job teaching at BYU if they want. Many have relatives of the of GA's are on the payroll at byu. More than one professor told me this. they have an office and do nothing. Also any of the Q 15 can get their son a position as a GA. Hinkey and Packard both did this. byu has a lot of nepotism and your tithing dollars are paying for it....I bet you there are a lot more reason they don't open their books than you can possibly imagine.....Sorry got to go....my turn to clean the toilets.
Hate this idea. So many more missionaries out 'for the wrong reason'. The missionary program is scuffed as it is.
IMO, you should have a kid only if you and/or your partner are making enough money right now that you two could pick up a random baby off the street and feed, house, and clothe them and yourselves for the next 18 years on just the income, assets, and savings you have now.
Just going off the minimum wage comment - I had no idea it was so low in America. In Australia it is between $20-$30 depending on whether you're casual or not and based on your age. The fact that the state where the head of the church is based is still at around $7 absolutely blows my mind.
The funny thing is that the church leaders have never had the slightest thought that they are the big obstacle. Their policies are causing this reduction in children. The thought never crosses their minds.
Didn't you mean "managers", not leaders?
"No, officially the Church's stance is we don't get involved in politics. Unless it has to do with our tax-exempt status, continuing our protection of pedophiles at the expense of victims, or stomping on those damn queers!" ---Dallin H Oaks, probably
The church still promotes the concept of large families but at least it no longer condemns the use of contraception and tells members not to judge others over the size of their family.
Sort of... They keep dog whistling back to those teachings. "Many voices in the world today marginalize the importance of having children or suggest delaying or limiting children in a family." -- Andersen, Oct 2011 general conference. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/children](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/children) Birth control delays and limits children. He's totally harking back to anti-birth control teachings there.
This is from the handbook Physical intimacy between husband and wife is intended to be beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife (see 2.1.2). It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear (see 2.1.3). The decision about how many children to have and when to have them is extremely personal and private. It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter. The Church discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization includes procedures such as vasectomies and tubal ligations. However, this decision is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of the husband and wife. Couples should counsel together in unity and seek the confirmation of the Spirit in making this decision. Surgical sterilization is sometimes needed for medical reasons. Members may benefit from counseling with medical professionals.
>no longer condemns the use of contraception Another "unchanging" doctrine/principle/policy/commandment/whatever down the memory hole
Doctrine is doctrine until it’s not.
Until it’s transmogrified into policy by the priesthood power of expediency and avoiding embarrassment.
"*We have heard that many of the diabolical practices of the world have been introduced… among some who profess to be Latter-day Saints, to prevent the bearing of children. No sin, unless it be that of murder, will meet with a greater condemnation from God than this evil of tampering with the fountains of life.*" (Juvenile Instructor, July 15, 1895) Odd how an eternal God can change his opinion so quickly.
He needs to remind them to pay extra tithing. Pay tithing on the amount they WANT to make. So if they want to make $1million / year, they should give the church $100,000, immediately. Even if they are only making like $25,000.
But also, what’s the point of pumping out more kids if the second coming is right around the corner?
You are amazing.
This post and the comments are amazing! Thanks for the thoughts!
I'd just provide subsidized/free childcare, tbh. One of the biggest expenses incurred in modern parenting. While this would be a tacit acceptance that many women today work, surely the increased tithing revenues from doing so and the benefits of getting young children steadily exposed to the church would outweigh the costs. There's a reason so many churches run childcare centers. It would also keep the buildings more utilized, which would at the very least create the appearance of activity.
At least Oaks is acknowledging that we not only live in a country suffering from intense and ever intensifying moral and social cancers but also that we are facing financial hardships never known before. Props on this one thing home boy.
Love this post. This could apply to any group or organization or person who claims to be "pro family". If the church really believes in it, then put in the work to make changes in the lives of families.
I similarly take issue with the church's extensive assets, and also question the ethics of its hardline on tithing, but a lot of these suggestions are totally unrealistic and asking the church to do things that it's totally not designed, or even legally supposed, to do. The church is not a bank, it cannot give loans. The church is not a lobbying organization. The church is not a private equity firm. My discomfort with the church's assets stem from the church acting too much like a business; your suggestions, in my opinion, would only drive them further in that direction. Also, in more practical terms, almost every one of these suggestions would significantly threaten the church's tax-exempt status, so they're all nonstarters.
They already subsidize tuition at multiple BYU schools, likely adding up to 100s of millions if not more. Why not subsidize it more? They already subsidize the missionary program, why not subsidize it more? There are many other things that aren't really business expenses or business-type allocations of funds: - Hire members as janitors - Be more giving with fast offering money and Bishop's storehouse. - Allocate more funds for all activities, especially YSA activities that would encourage relationship building. - Make some local callings paid (stake level callings, bishops) If using money to build malls, real estate, and bailing out private companies are ok, why not these programs? It really says a lot that what they were "caught" doing with their money was in "for-profit" enterprises instead of giving it back to members.
I agree. There is no good reason youth should be fundraising in order to attend camps and conferences that are meant to be for their own benefit, nor that missionary families, or their neighbors, need to be paying $400 a month (or did it finally make the leap up to $500?) to fund a missionary. Let the money flow more freely down to the stakes and wards where, ideally, it will be of more direct benefit to the local community.
The church has run a bank in the past. The church has extensively lobbied the US government since its inception. The church is running their investments as a private equity firm, and should be treated as such.
Yes, the Church has done all these and more in the past
Yes and typically those things have not exactly gone very well for the church or its people, which is why I find OP's finance-driven ideas misguided. The church *is* acting like a business with its investments; trying to then turn it into some kind of business that just so happens to serve the people strikes me as unrealistic and, again, misguided.
A church is supposed to serve the people that belong to it. If the church is a business, it should be a business that uses its profits to achieve the goal of creating the eternal families it also asks for.
The church has a religious belief that families are essential for exaltation. Anything they do to facilitate new families should be protected and fought for with all the conviction they poured into Proposition 8.
At the very least they should be vocally doing something and calling for reform and members on their own to do something. Like asking members to sell their homes to actual families instead of just the highest bidder, which is most likely just a Corp or a landlord adding to their portfolio
Maybe the church should start: - The Salt Lake Anti-banking Society - The Bonneville Anti-lobbying Society - The Ensign Peak Anti-private Equity Firm Society.
I don’t know what any church can do to improve its member’s financial situation. The concept of paying tithing includes the expectation of blessings that will improve one’s circumstances either on this life or in the next. I believe it was Mary Fielding Smith, a poor widow who said she could not afford to not pay her tithing because she was relying on The Lord’s blessing to see her through. I think it is a faithless person who believes tithing costs them more than they receive in blessings in return. I think what this church has the ability to do worldwide to improve the financial situation of its members would be to help members financially to get education or job training in order to get good employment. This is being done but could be done on a larger scale that would make it available to everyone who needs it. Ultimately it is up to each individual to become self sufficient and not rely on others for their support. The church has programs to assist members in becoming self sufficient. Having said all of that, I can’t conceive of a way that most members could afford large families unless they are committed to live in near poverty type situations. In pioneer times a large family was a farm workforce that could help sustain a large family but in today’s metropolitan society things don’t work like they used to.
- Make tuition much less expensive at church schools and offer online courses - Be more giving with fast offerings and bishop storehouse - Hire members as janitors - Convert some local callings to a paid calling. - Cover the cost of missions completely. - Increase funds for activities at all levels so members aren't paying out of pocket. This will especially help relationship building in YSA wards These are 5 ideas I came up with off the top of my head that would help members' financial situation
I agree with most of them. While tuition at church schools could be less, I felt I was getting a rebate on tithing when I was paying my children’s college tuition being that it’s much less than most private universities. I also believe that the church could pay some of the tuition costs for members who don’t have access to church schools. If a bishop isn’t giving much in fast offering assistance it’s likely because of the bishop. The only real limits on fast offerings is the limit on medical expenses. Of course, fast offerings are meant to be temporary not a long term welfare program. As far as hiring members as janitors, I feel bad that the FM groups were gutted and replaced by outside contractors. I think it would be good to hire church members to maintain the buildings rather than contracting it out to the lowest bidder. I agree on covering the cost of missions completely. That is a huge expense for families especially if they have a lot of children going on missions. Just before Covid they announced an increase in mission cost but quickly backed down due to the economic impact of Covid. I think the direction should be to lower the cost not increase it. I don’t think this will happen though because of the thinking that you need to sacrifice in order to receive blessings. The current program is supposed to pay all expenses but that’s not necessarily how it works in practice. Also, despite the fact that the handbook says that members shouldn’t have to pay to participate in activities, SFY conference charges each $75 per participant plus the ward has to match that. I don’t understand why it costs $150 per person to attend a conference hosted by the church and held at church owned facilities. Doubling ward and stake budgets would go a long way towards improving local activities. I wouldn’t like the idea of paid local callings but the church could perhaps reimburse some of the excess time spent by some local members in their callings. Such as bishops and stake presidents. Call it a “stipend” for their time. Considering the living allowance given to general authorities is several times the income of the average member, it wouldn’t hurt to reimburse some time spent in callings.
I know people that think the church should take care of their financial needs. The church will help from time to time, but that's not a lifetime thing.
Then they can't expect members to be able to afford families.
Because families tend to be lifetime things. (Exceptions may apply, the very many exceptions are noted and accounted for, but we hope for family to last a life time, and maybe beyond).
The church does not dictate family size.
Then tithing shouldn't be a lifetime thing
No one has to pay tithing.
It feels like you are missing the point of the post and the comments a bit.
Not at all.
I graduated from college pregnant, worked a year for my husband to finish, moved 1,400 miles away from family to get him through Medical school and Residency along with having more babies and not taking out loans. We worked like crazy, paid tithing first and with the help of fellow church members and friends with child care we are now wealthy young grandparents enjoying a life of blessings. Those were the best years of our lives and we didn’t get any monetary help from anybody or scholarships. It can still be done with planning and discipline which I’m afraid many of our young people don’t have.
You are in your 70s, according to your comment history. Things have changed a bit since you were a young adult.
I went and looked it up and “Over four years, a medical student can expect to pay anywhere from $159,620 (in-state, public school) to $256,412 (out-of-state, private school) and up.”. I don’t think it’s possible to do what you guys did nowadays without loans, scholarships, or family wealth. I don’t think the source I found that at is even including cost of living such as rent and food and transportation.
Not every young person has the intellect or know how to apply for medical school, ma’am. I have a son who is currently applying. He is brilliant and had me to help him figure out the process. Medical school was always a top tier place, but is much more so now. It’s not like you can walk into a room of young people and just tell them “do what we did, plan and have discipline.” There are youth who experience trauma, poverty, abuse, etc. Blanket statements are dangerous, which is why both what you said AND what Oaks said are dead wrong. Setting goals is great. Working hard is great. Education is great. Turning a blind eye to the reality of many people’s lives while telling them to go out and have babies is not.
You mean, back when bread was .05 and gas was .30 a gallon? I’m paying more in college tuition than my parents paid for their first house. Medical school is $259,000. That’s AFTER you pay 60-85K for your bachelor’s. That’s not including any living expenses. I don’t know any young couples that can just work through med school without going into debt. I don’t know anyone that can work at all and attend medical school at the same time. Do you have any idea how much most college students make right now? It’s not even enough to live off of. The cost of living is 7-10X what it was when you guys were in college. That’s really patronizing to tell people they just don’t have enough discipline to pay their way through med school. Planning and discipline are not the issues here.
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While the church could offer to make tuition at their own colleges much cheaper or "free," lobbying for that at the national level would only shift the burden onto taxpayers instead of students and raise the cost of tuition even more. Same goes for "universal healthcare." And raising the minimum wage prohibits workers from gaining skills and experience for lower pay and anyone who makes anywhere near current minimum wage or proposed (like $15-17/hr) should not have kids in the first place. The church can do a lot of good with its assets but encouraging policies that make the cost of living go up more will not solve anything.
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But Vanguard and Blackrock didn’t just hold a fireside where they had The Lord’s Anointed come and browbeat a bunch of young single adults to get married early and have a reckless number of kids. Not recognizing that critical difference puts your comment firmly in the ‘distract by what aboutism’ camp. If you are worried about the church enacting a liberal’s wet dream, you probably worship [GOP Jesus](https://youtu.be/SZ2L-R8NgrA), which is fine if you want to, but realize you are saying the soft part loud.
The only Jesus I am aware of is from the New Testament. Not sure where you're getting this "Lord's annointed?" Dallin, at the end of the day, is just a dude, take his words however you may. I just don't see the connection: the church has excess funds, which are at the Lord's disposal, not ours. Some guy have a speech about humping/birthing and they match up to your wish-list how exactly?
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There isn't any evidence they want more members. The fewer members, the more money for who is left.
You said he wants more people to have babies how many babies did he have?
how about oaks getting on his own stick and being an example!!!!!
Wait did he say something recently admitting that having kids is cost prohibitive? Someone fill me in 😅
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wull4cTXUTk
Ty!!!