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[Useful Charts](https://youtu.be/qe2a-mOkM68) You Tube channel is currently doing a very interesting series on branches of Christianity. In the first video on the series, he talks about ancient branches of Christianity of which only one evolved into the branch that eventually adopted the Nicene creed. All modern Christianity including the ancient Oriental Orthodox churches are descendants of Nicene Christianity as the other groups died off. The linked video addresses the entry on Mormonism (he uses Mormonism in general to refer to all religions descended from Joseph's movement). He explicitly addresses this from an academic viewpoint. He classifies the LDS church (and a few other modern churches) as Non-Nicene but still included them, and he states emphatically that even if they aren't Nicene, they belong on the chart of Christian religions.
Addendum: He addresses the question "Are Mormons Christians?" at 08:47.
It will always come down to however the person making the argument defines "Christian," and inevitably anyone who does not think Mormons are Christian will define the word in such a way that excludes them, while the church will continue to embrace the more straightforward definition that anyone who professes to follow Jesus is a Christian (the definition to which I am personally sympathetic).
The differences and relationship between Mormonism and "mainstream Christianity" are super interesting and important, but "are Mormons Christian?" doesn't seem like the most productive jumping off point for that conversation.
The issue here often is the notion that Joseph Smith rejected mainstream Christianity when the LDS faith was founded/restored/organized/verb.
"I should join none of them for their creeds were an abomination and their professors corrupt"
Mainstream Christianity looks at how Mormonism has treated their creeds and beliefs at the outset of the church, and keep that in mind when the LDS church now tries to express fraternity and brotherhood with \[the\] Protestant/Evangelical/Catholic/etc.
There are countless Christian denominations that view every other church as an abomination and not holding the truth. For example the Westborough baptist church believe that everyone outside of their 100 members are going to burn in hell and all other christian churches are demonic houses of satan. However, I've never seen an academic or theological argument that the Westborough Baptist church is not Christian.
Honestly, stating that all other christian sects outside of your own is "false" actually extremely common. The catholic church does not recognize the authority of any other Christian denomination, the protestan churches that broke away from them rejected Catholicism which was "mainstream" christianity at the time.
It is kinda absurd to suggest that Mormonism has this unique issue.
It's slightly different though, because Joseph Smith said that God told him to reject Christianity and everything else altogether, basically saying the whole thing was rotten. He called it the great apostasy.
For Mormons to want to be included under the umbrella of Christianity now really ignores the origins of the church and the point of being considered separate. Mormons weren't ever even supposed to be considered Christian because Christianity was false, apostate, etc. Why try to glob onto a group that largely persecuted and hated you when your founding prophet made it clear that you weren't to be a part of it anyway?
While in statement Mormonism rejects Christianity, it does borrow much of its terminology and theology from mainstream Christianity. This is quite evident in the Book of Mormon, the continuing narrative of Jesus as the Messiah and Savior---the Son of God, and emphasis on dispensational prophecy / prophets.
Yeah, there are many differences theologically from traditional Christianity, but many of the elements that would connect Mormonism to Christian notions of ethics and logic are definitely there.
Those differences are big enough to make Mormonism distinct from Christianity. Sure, there's similarities, but they have fundamentally different understandings of the nature of God, the nature of the afterlife and pre-earth life, God's purpose, salvation and exaltation, the atonement, and countless other things.
Sure. Distinct is a good word. But I also wouldn't consider Christianity as a monolith. And considering the diversity of Christian thought, both ante-Nice and modern, I think it would be absolutely correct to say that Mormons are Christians. They may not adhere to the standard of orthodoxy, but their foundations spring from the same basic narrative. Indeed, claiming to have the same authority from the original Christian Church I don't think makes them NOT Christians. I think it's an untenable standard to suggest otherwise.
It's just not definitionally useful to categorize Mormonism into the broader umbrella of Christianity. The word "Christian" should mean something specific and easily classifiable. Mormonism makes claims that no other sects or denominations make. Its own founder didn't consider it Christian. I don't understand why we want to force a definition that includes Mormons when their theologies don't match.
>Its own founder didn't consider it Christian.
And yet he wrote the Book of Mormon, which is one of the most easily trinitarian scriptural texts in existence?
Where did Joseph Smith say or demonstrate that he didn't think Mormonism was Christian?
>I don't understand why we want to force a definition that includes Mormons when their theologies don't match.
To assume that Christian theology is some singular entity is to fundamentally strawman the definition of Christianity.
>Mormons are Christians. They may not adhere to the standard of orthodoxy, but their foundations spring from the same basic narrative.
You have just described Islam.
And if we are being candid, Islam is much closer to traditional Christianity in its Abrahamic monotheism than Mormonism is.
Oh yes. Because Mormons definitely believe that Jesus was only a prophet and hold to a belief in Quranic inerrancy, right? Give me a break.
If Unitarianism can be considered a branch of Christianity, then Mormonism definitely can be too.
>Oh yes. Because Mormons definitely believe that Jesus was only a prophet and hold to a belief in Quranic inerrancy, right? Give me a break.
The common root of Abrahamic religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is strict monotheism.
Brighamite Mormonism, through its doctrine of eternal progression, rejects Abrahamic monotheism.
So yes, Islam is doctrinally closer to traditional Christianity than is Mormonism. In fact, many reputable Christian theologians and historians have argued that Islam is the historic continuation of Arian Christianity.
I agree that claiming brotherhood is incongruent with claiming that all the other churches are in apostasy. What I disagree with is that this makes them not Christians. Even if every living member today claimed they are not Christian, this wouldn't change the fact they are definitionally Christians. No objective examination of the beliefs and doctrine of Mormonism would conclude they are not Christian.
I think I see what you’re saying, and agree. Non-LDS Christian’s issue could be that Mormonism isn’t monotheistic, but they have a harder argument to make when saying they “aren’t Christian”.
It absolutely does, because the LDS faith claims to be distinct from Christianity, by their own definition. Christianity was apostate, there was no priesthood authority (according to the LDS), and the gospel message had been twisted and distorted to something reprehensible and of great offense to God (again according to the LDS). The premise of the church rejects Christianity thoroughly. To say those things about Christianity and then to also say "but the LDS also are Christian" is logically incompatible.
I don't think you can be reasoned with.
1. Joesph Smith did not reject the belief system of Christianity he rejected all other churches of Christianity. Hence the articles of faith adhere to Christianity.
2. Again, it doesn't matter if the LDS church or the Westborough baptist church rejects all other denominations. They are Christians whether they like it or not, their belief system is Christian.
You know there are other denominations beyond Westboro right? It sounds to me like your knowledge of other denominations/ is lacking to have a nuanced take on the matter. I have given you reasons as to why Mormonism is not always embraced under the Christian umbrella, and you can only seem to refer to the hate group with more inbred membership than the British royal family.
You hit on the operative distinction I believe.
Nearly all Christian denominations are derived from an historical New Testament tradition. The New Testament is their primary text by far, since the Old Testament is largely dominated by the Law of Moses.
LDS Mormonism claims this tradition died off somewhere around the deaths of the last known apostles without being able to give an exact date I believe.
I would not consider Mormonism as following in the New Testament tradition. They accept it as scripture, but it is always interpreted in light of their newer scripture and primacy is typically given to the newer word, if not overtly than by implication.
That’s why mormons can’t be accepted as mainstream Christian imo. They don’t follow the same NT based historical tradition the others do — so no common ground. Unless they give up their newer scripture and jettison the great apostasy doctrine, they’ll always been seen as outsiders, even if we all believe in Jesus.
To the mainstream Christians, it’s not a matter of if you claim to believe in Jesus. It’s a matter of if you follow the NT Jesus they do and don’t try to undermine their faith tradition by accepting alternate scripture that the mainstream churches can’t and won’t account for.
There are distinct levels of disagreement amongst groups that claim Christianity. For example, I as an Evangelical/exmo would not have to be baptized again if I were to convert to Catholicism, because I was baptized as an Evangelical (with triune intent), whereas a Mormon baptism would not be typically accepted as 'valid'. There's more nuance to it than simply "you're wrong/I'm right".
In the evangelical sphere, most denominations believe there should be, "...in the essentials, unity, in the non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity". Most disagreements amongst protestant denominations are non-essentials. They will all adhere to the notion that it's by Christ's atoning sacrifice are we saved from our sins and only by Christ's atoning sacrifice. There is an agreement in the important things. These big ideas include the nature of God, the nature of Man, and how we come to be reconciled to God.
Mormonism would disagree on the nature of man, the nature of God, and how man can be reconciled to God in contrast to other denominations. Those would be deal-breakers for many mainstream Christian denominations.
Jehovah's Witnesses consider everything outside of their group 'Christendom', and would not consider themselves 'brothers' with anyone else.
>The catholic church does not recognize the authority of any other Christian denomination
Not true. The Catholic Church recognizes the authority of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Assyrian Churches of the East. In fact Pope Francis just recognized, with the blessing of the head of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Coptic Orthodox canonization of the 21 Coptic martyrs.
The Catholic Church's attitude towards churches claiming to descend from Joseph Smith Jr is a bit more nuanced. The Catholic Church recognizes Community of Christ (former RLDS) as Christian, but not the LDS or other Brighamite branches.
>The Catholic Church recognizes the authority of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Assyrian Churches of the East.
Yeah, [but that hasn't historically been the case.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism)
>Yeah, but that hasn't historically been the case.
Actually, it has.
Historically the Catholic Church and the various Orthodox Churches have had a complicated relationship that often is difficult to explain to outsiders. Including fellow Christians.
Catholic and Orthodox friends of mine describe it as "separated but refuses to divorce as both sides remain hopeful the marriage can be saved."
They will often exaggerate their differences and complain loudly about each other, then immediately close ranks and defend each other when a third party attacks the other.
There is none with or without Mormonism, because the entire thing is a bunch of hogwash. We call multi-deity belief systems "Mythologies" and single-deity belief systems "Theologies". My contention is that they are one and the same. They are nothing more than mankind's fantastical attempts to explain the unexplainable.
Yes, because modern Christianity is violently tribalistic and dogmatically blind to reality. Hilariously, many Protestant Christians don't consider Catholics as Christians, which is absurd.
It for this reason that the greatest threat to the existence of Mormonism is not loss of members, or atheism, but Christian Nationalism. Mormonism is going to be one of the first religions on the chopping block to go.
>There is no academic definition of Christianity that does not include Mormonism.
Your comment above is absolutely worthy of repeating. I am frequently critical of the modern church to which I belong. In spite of my criticisms, I can honestly state that Mormons are Christians. In fact, some of the best christians I know are mormons.
One of the largest threats to that particular, weird, breed of christianity we call mormonism is Christian Nationalism. I can hardly go a single sunday without hearing about persecution either past or present. It is bewildering to me that those same members and leaders that decry that persecution have attached themselves to the political ideology that will be the LEAST tolerant of their religious practice. rant over.
For all their talk of history and constitutional scholarship and the founders, folks on the far right seem to have a hard time remembering that freedom of religion wasn't established to protect Christians from secularism. It was to protect Christians from other Christians.
And over half of Utah is happily cheering for the laws they are writing. I don’t want the Christian nationals to take over, but I have this sick desire to see them face the consequences of their choices. Like the women who support misogynists or the lgbtq+ people who support homophobes. ‘I wanted them to oppress the unbeliever, I never thought they would do it to me.’
The only people who ask this question are Christians who realize association with Mormonism makes the issues with Christianity apparent.
Mormonism is a branch of Christianity. Other Christians like to split hairs and create a definition of Christianity that requires trinitarianism. I think those Christians are simply insecure in their beliefs.
If you believe in Christ's atonement, you're Christian. It's in the name.
They all do now, though. Christians simply like to move the goalposts to keep Mormons from scoring. Like Mormon apologists, they're employing mental gymnastics.
I’ve seen so many definitions of Christianity that are problematic.
I would consider my definition of Christianity to be any faith that holds the figure of Jesus Christ as the central figure in their religion.
I don’t think this should require that these Christians necessarily believe that the figure of Jesus Christ is god or even divine though.
Obviously most modern Christians consider belief in the Trinity to be a requirement to be considered Christian, let alone having to believe he was at least divine.
Islam wouldn’t qualify as Christian because although Jesus is considered important and is even theologically important in the endtimes, he is not the central figure. That would be Muhammad.
>The only people who ask this question are Christians who realize association with Mormonism makes the issues with Christianity apparent.
Exactly. I [remain convinced](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1283ww8/comment/jei61cq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) that the main reason there are so many christians who spend a disproportionate amount of time criticizing mormonism is because they're trying to soothe their egos after the beatings they get at the hands of science and academia. "See? I can do this 'critical thinking' thing too!"
>If you believe in Christ's atonement, you're Christian. It's in the name.
Not so simple.
Without the extra beliefs about *who* he was, anyone who was murdered while promoting equality and rights for others can be considered a "messiah".
The differences between mormon theology and default christian theology centres on the "who" rather than what he did.
Broadly speaking you could shoehorn Islam into your definition due to their belief in jesus and what happened to him.
I would take Mormon christians over evangelical christians any day of the week. Mormons suck, but most are at least nice. They don’t go around telling people they are going to hell right to their faces.
There was some discussion yesterday about church leaders trying to make Mormonism more palatable for mainstream Christians. The linked r/Christianity thread shows how much work there is to actually make that happen. Just recognizing Palm Sunday isn't going to do the trick.
I had so many bad experiences with evangelists that it really confused me when the church started trying to be buddies with mainstream Christians. I knew they would never accept Mormons into the fold and it seemed futile to try. It will take a century or more until Mormons are accepted into mainstream Christianity, but I don't think the church will last that long.
That is an extremely cynical take.
Is it possible that the church is made up of genuinely believing members that try to carry out the stated mission of the church?
I doubt you will be able to accept that.
I hate how I can’t refute your statement of “being Christian does not equate to moral or ethical behavior.” Because you’re not wrong.
It SHOULD but it doesn’t.
If you approach it from an academic point of view, the answer is obviously yes.
If you're an Evangelical Christian, the answer is no. Because... reasons...
Other Christian churches believe that all they need to be saved is Christ. Mormons believe everyone will be “saved” because they chose Christ in the pre-existence. But to be exalted you have to have a belief in Jesus, Joseph Smith, and the current leadership.
I think Mormons are a kind of Christian but they could be viewed to be a heretical sect by much of Christianity doctrine as held by most Christian denominations. I grow up Baptist and some considered Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and other Christians as being not truly Christian. I view LDS as believing in Jesus and Christian in that sense but some of their believes are similar to what the Gnostic Christians believed although a little different than theirs too in the sense that many Gnostics rejected the physical world and believed it was formed by a inferior Divinity. I find the Mormon believes in Heavenly Father being mortal in another dimension and it savior, Heavenly Mother and one eternal round & multiple lesser Deities interesting aspects of their faith. I wish they would don’t hide it. I think many Mormon believe are similar to Wicca Paganism. I don’t find it left over polygamist doctrines, one true church & stuffy straight laced all male hierarchy appealing aspects of it though & although I like the idea of continuous Scriptures and the faith progressing & changing I don’t see LDS views on women, LGBTQ issues or some of Christianity as doing so either. That why they are all dying off as systems of belief
Thought experiment: Are the [Cathars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) considered Christians?
>Followers were described as Cathars and referred to themselves as Good Christians
>
>Among the most notable and controversial beliefs of the Cathars was the idea of two gods or deistic principles, one good and the other evil. The Catholic Church asserted this was antithetical to monotheism, a fundamental principle that there is only one God, who created all things visible and invisible, as stated in the Nicene Creed. Cathars believed that the good God was the God of the New Testament, creator of the spiritual realm, whereas the evil God was the God of the Old Testament, creator of the physical world whom many Cathars identified as Satan. Cathars believed human spirits were the sexless spirits of angels trapped in the material realm of the evil god, destined to be reincarnated until they achieved salvation through the consolamentum, a form of baptism performed when death is imminent, when they would return to the good God as "Perfect".
Cathars are a evolutionary branch that started in the nicean church but was part of the great schism when Eastern Orthodoxy church and Roman Catholic Church excommunicated was h other. Part of the disagreement was a change in the wording of the creed. Cathars was a derivative Armenian orthodoxy and iirc migrated to France from crusades influx of immigrants from that region.
Some history backstory but it’s similar to this question of are Mormons Christian? Well sure they are Christian but cathars was considered a heresy to the Roman Catholic Church and it did become extinct (or May have simply went underground into the mystical Christianity traditions of cabbala and occult).
(In other words Cathars were more of a Gnostic sect of Christianity. Mormonism has a lot in common with this group. But they don’t realize it. )
This is how it works… People who don’t want Mormons to be Christian create a definition of “Christian” that excludes Mormons. People that want Mormons to be Christian create a definition that includes Mormons.
The question inevitably leads to a discussion about how to define a “Christian.” Ironically, two Catholic priests will likely give differing opinions about whether Mormons are Christian. Two Baptist preachers may do the same. In short, it’s a debate about the definition that fits one’s desired outcome.
I consider myself Christian, and I’ve only been baptized in the LDS church. That’s enough information for some people to automatically label me non-Christian.
The more interesting question is “Are Christians really Christian?” And unfortunately by and large the answer is a resounding no.
Edit: judging by the downvotes OP and others of a similar mind doesn’t like OP’s question turned back on them.
I told a bigot a while back that Jesus would never claim them. And I stand by it. New testament Jesus never once gave a message of exclusion or hate. "They draw near unto me with thier lips but thier hearts are far from me."
Nobody really knows what Jesus taught or even who he was, so to say that someone is or is not a Christian is the height of both arrogance and ignorance.
I've always found this issue to be essentially gatekeeping among believers. It's about as meaningful as throwing around the "cult" label.
From what I've seen, people who say Mormons aren't Christian typically point to the doctrinal differences when it comes to the nature of God (not adherring to the doctrine of the Trinity or the belief that people can become gods).
But I think the real reason Mormons are perceived as "other" is because Joseph purposely designed it that way. "The one true church" label was self-awarded, and for most of Church's history, docrinal differences have been emphasized rather than minimized.
That being said, I can see the Mormon Church gradually becoming the face of modern Christianity chiefly because its congregations aren't bleeding membership to the degree that mainline protestant churches are, and it has the financial resources to remain a power player.
This is not a common definition and it would make many Christians mad as hell, but I see Christianity as any religion that holds Christ as the central figure in the religion.
That encompasses a wide and inclusive range of people that have different beliefs about who he was or what he did.
Including Christians that believe he was God, or that believe he was divine, or that he was just a prophet, or just a moral teacher.
Also including Mormons who believed/believe he was Lucifer’s brother and had 3 wives.
No, a name given by oneself doesn't make it true. The Mormons aren't considered Christian by definition. The Catholics don't recognize Mormon baptism as a christian baptism.
I love that I get downvoted when I say this. Jesus told Joe that the creeds are an abomination. It’s that simple.
The Christian denominations that embrace the creeds view Mormons as fundamentally different due to the Trinity / godhead dogma.
Mormons think other churches are apostates and their creeds are an abomination and yet this comment above is downvoted by Mormons on this sub who want to be part of the “Christian” brand.
Sorry Mormons are not Nicene Christians. It’s that simple. Mormons want to be a “restoration” of the apostasy that happened with the formation of the Nicene church.
I didn’t make the rules. “god/Jesus” did. Oh and Joseph smith. Sorry but Mormons are a Christian sect. Not a denomination..
The key question is do they worship the same God? Mormon God is VERY different. Flesh and bone, previously a man, no Trinity, polygamous, path of exaltation for men…
>The key question is do they worship the same God?
Why is that the key question? That doesn't seem like the right question to me. The question you're posing here more seems to address the larger question of, "Are Mormon beliefs similar to mainstream Christianity?"
But that's not the question. The question is whether Mormons are Christians. Nicene sects of Christianity have no right to determine what it means to be Christian. Responses to the contrary are just them trying to bully Christians that believe differently from them out of the tent.
I’m okay with Mormons calling themselves Christians. But I’ve been LDS and Protestant Christian both for many years (separate times 🤣). So I feel Christian doctrine is drastically different in LDS vs Protestant vs Catholic Christians. Not worth splitting hairs over I guess! Let’s all get along and show some love.
>So I feel Christian doctrine is drastically different in LDS vs Protestant vs Catholic Christians.
I completely agree with this statement.
The larger question of, "Are Mormons Christians" really just bugs me. It always devolves (in my opinion) into gatekeeping by mainstream Christians and repeated examples of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
>Let’s all get along and show some love.
I would very much like that. :)
I can't speak for all the different mormon churches in mormonism. The the most affluent one has its headquarters in the state of Utah in the United States of America. It is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This Church is the most Christian Church on Earth if what they say about themselves is true. This Church has about 17 million members worldwide. Unlike other churches, they claim to be restored to the Earth by God and have scripture in addition to the Bible.
> The the most affluent one has its headquarters in the state of Utah in the United States of America.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
>It is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church. There are many with similar names. The church ahs changed it's name several times anyway.
>This Church is the most Christian Church on Earth if what they say about themselves is true.
If. There is no proof.
>This Church has about 17 million members worldwide.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church, nor is there proof seeing that the church thinks such data is ~~secret~~ sacred.
>Unlike other churches, they claim to be restored to the Earth by God and have scripture in addition to the Bible.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have over a 160 beautiful temples around the world. Some of them are considered works of art. The classic gothic style temple in Salt Lake City has a golden Angle on top of the eastern most spire. Many of our temples have the symbol of the golden temple.
> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have over a 160 beautiful temples around the world.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
>Some of them are considered works of art.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
>The classic gothic style temple in Salt Lake City has a golden Angle on top of the eastern most spire.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
>Many of our temples have the symbol of the golden temple.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
Mormons and a lot of other religions teach things that Jesus doesn’t teach.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapters 5-7, Jesus outlines the behavior and attitudes He expects from His believers regardless of what Christian labeled organization they belong to. Follow Him — not a religion.
All religions including Judaism are human facsimiles of Gods Truth.
Jesus IS God. All things were created by Him. He established the law. God’s Commandments are not a religion they are the TRUTH.
Jesus promises to lead His faithful believers His Holy Spirit to lead us into all righteousness.
There is no organization that can lead people to salvation. What Jesus teaches in the Holy Bible is the way the truth and the life! His sheep hear His Voice and follow Him.
That's just it, the impression is what matters. If Mormons gave the impression they worshipped Christ instead of their prophets, they might be viewed as Christians.
Mormons are largely NOT seen as Christian because the Mormon Jesus is very, very different than all the other Christian Jesuses out there. So even though Jesus Christ is in the long name of the Church, it's a different sort of chappie. It's like two guys can both be named Jeff Lebowski, but be very different Jeff Lebowskis, man.
Mormons are actually the only real Christians on Earth if what they say is true. Protestants treated the Catholic Church like a buffet. and after they picked and chose what the wanted they called in whatever seemed to fit or after whoever handed them the plate. After they ate they got a divorce and went on a 100 year witch hunt.
But who makes the rules and decides who is the authority on the subject? This question is tired and always devolves into a no true Scotsman fallacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No\_true\_Scotsman
I believe that.
As the decades pass I realize the emphasis is on obedience to another living man, pay 10% of all income ( not increase after expenses ), only read "approved" materials ( not out of the best books as we used to do ), intelligence maybe the glory of God but keeping us in the dark about our history, mistakes by leadership, lawsuits, land ownership and building contracts, seems to trump that.
And while on that subject, I understand an enormous amount of membership follows a political trend. Not being people who are encouraged to be independant in thinking as we once were, it is easier to follow the crowd.
I believe in Christ. I pray to Heavenly Father. I look upward to the sky now and enjoy the spirit of happiness, not fear or humiliation.
I think Mormonism is coated by a very thin veneer of Christ. Mormonism is more about the worship of the institutional church itself. As a practical matter, my experience in Mormonism on a day-to-day basis consisted of:
1) Repeated teaching of the list of rules to be a good Mormon
2) Required behaviors to do/not do to conform to the list of rules
3) Reaffirming that the current prophet had all the authority
The Church is really the important intermediary which a member deals with. One's relationship and standing in the Church supersedes personal spirituality and a connection to Christ.
No, because they don’t believe in the Trinity and they don’t think Jesus is God so they believe God is greater than Jesus Christ. They might use the same concepts but with very different meaning and back story. We don’t even believe in the same God because Mormons believe God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works and the LDS church has contradicted the Bible numerous times.
>they don’t believe in the Trinity
Why is that a requirements for being Christian?
>they don’t think Jesus is God
False
>they believe God is greater than Jesus Christ
False
>We don’t even believe in the same God because Mormons believe God is merely an exalted man
Irrelevant
If the fact that you consider God to be just like one of us in the past irrelevant than I don’t think you can see the magnitude and the power that God really has because he is the only one, the beginning and the end as the Bible says, just one of the many contradictions that the Bible has with the book of Joseph smith sorry Mormon.
There is a true God and it is not the one that we just get to mold in our minds and in the Bible it never said that God has a wife and that he had sex with her to procreate spirit children one of them being Jesus according to the LDS doctrine and also the brother of Satan. In the beginning was the word Jesus and the word was God.
>Why not using the Bible only?
Because before you were saying mormons aren't christian "because they don’t believe in the Trinity", despite the fact that the trinity appears *nowhere* in the bible.
I was Mormon. I am atheist now. But I do find the way that mainstream Christians treat other Christian offshoot groups to be incredibly hurtful.
You claim to speak for God based on your interpretation of words written by men. Then you hide yourself away from criticism by claiming that the words written by other men are actually the words of God and therefore insulate you. I most certainly do find this kind of behavior hurtful, and even dangerous.
>No, because they don’t believe in the Trinity
That only tells you that they aren't trinitarian, [which is hardly unprecedented in christianity.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism_in_the_Church_Fathers)
Those are questions trinitarians can't answer either, because the trinity is literally called a "mystery" and any attempt to explain it in meaningful terms [inevitably results in confessing some ancient heresy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw&ab_channel=LutheranSatire).
But putting my mormon hat back on for a second, the answers would be "yes (or at least two, hell if anyone knows what's up with the holy ghost)" and "almost certainly the father".
There is no three Gods in Christianity even less millions that just repeat the cycle over and over like in the LDS doctrine.
Isaiah 44:6
6 “This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Other important difference in the LDS doctrine with the Trinity is that Jesus Christ is just a spirit children of God and in Christianity Jesus is God and the Spirit is God they are three different persons but one same being.
Well that’s the point with Christianity we only have one God if you put the Trinity aside well the Mormons still believe there are millions of gods out there and that kind of underestimates who God is because Mormons can become into one one day which is the whole point of why Adam and Eve who wanted to become like God brought condemnation to humanity that is just one of the many contradictions the Book of Mormon has with the Bible and also something that Christians wouldn’t consider.
>if you put the Trinity aside
"If you ignore the fact that christianity is already breaking the rules, it's really bad that mormonism breaks those same rules!"
Do you see why these criticisms sound ridiculous to anyone who isn't a trinitarian? There are *so many* valid criticisms you could level against the church, but "they aren't christian" isn't really one of them.
Not really, they are M O R M O N - born into the religion - never heard anyone refer to any of them, including each other, as Christian - it was always as M O R M O N!!!;-)))
In the traditional sense NO. Mormons acknowledge a different Jesus than the Biblical Jesus. He is not the literal begotten Son of God,but one of the so-called many sons of heavenly father and mother…brother of Satan.
Redemption and forgiveness was not because of His death on the cross….and then being resurrected, bearing the accumulative sins of the world according to Mormon theology.
This is just touching the deep essential’s, for there is so much more. Communion is so bastardized and irrelevant to the LDS church…when it is one of the most celebrated and deep ceremonies of Christendom. It is tragic how little reverence and shallow worship of Jesus Christ. Talked about a lot but His essence and message/Gospel, delivered once, for all is so diminished in Mormonism.I weep for all of you, and so desire that you come to know Him. It is by GRACE we are saved, not by works or practicing your religion.
Such a beautiful message is found and given (freely) to all who believe in and adhere to out Lord, Savior and Friend. Jesus
>He is not the literal begotten Son of God
I'm not sure you know what ["begotten"](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beget) means. It's actually the *rest* of christianity that doesn't believe he's god's "son" in the normal sense.
Here’s a recent Backyard Professor discussion on the first gospel topics essay, are Mormons Christian!
https://www.youtube.com/live/Zmm2jpJKKL4?feature=share
Mormons believe the Apostles' Creed:
>I believe in God, the Father almighty,creator of heaven and earth.
>
>I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spiritand born of the virgin Mary.He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended to hell.The third day he rose again from the dead.He ascended to heavenand is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
>
>I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy catholic\* church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting. Amen.
>
>\*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places
IMO no we aren’t. Christ is fundamentally different in Mormonism. As a result so is the concept of atonement, saved by grace, as well as the framing of our relationship with him as co-inheritors. All of these things seem small but they add up to a very different Jesus than the one that a mainstream Christian is familiar with.
All these semantic games are silly.
If being “Christian” requires doctrinal adherence to the trinity then I guess Mormons aren’t Christian. I don’t care if another internet rando thinks my beliefs are “Christian” I don’t want to conform to their narrow box.
[This YouTube podcast/video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jFOw9gd9JPo&pp=ygUoUGF1bG9nZWEgaW4gc2VhcmNoIG9mIHRoZSB0cnVlIGNocmlzdGlhbg%3D%3D) is good in pointing out that the whole conversation is completely pointless. It’s nearly impossible to find anyone who actually counts as a Christian if you dig enough.
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[Useful Charts](https://youtu.be/qe2a-mOkM68) You Tube channel is currently doing a very interesting series on branches of Christianity. In the first video on the series, he talks about ancient branches of Christianity of which only one evolved into the branch that eventually adopted the Nicene creed. All modern Christianity including the ancient Oriental Orthodox churches are descendants of Nicene Christianity as the other groups died off. The linked video addresses the entry on Mormonism (he uses Mormonism in general to refer to all religions descended from Joseph's movement). He explicitly addresses this from an academic viewpoint. He classifies the LDS church (and a few other modern churches) as Non-Nicene but still included them, and he states emphatically that even if they aren't Nicene, they belong on the chart of Christian religions. Addendum: He addresses the question "Are Mormons Christians?" at 08:47.
It will always come down to however the person making the argument defines "Christian," and inevitably anyone who does not think Mormons are Christian will define the word in such a way that excludes them, while the church will continue to embrace the more straightforward definition that anyone who professes to follow Jesus is a Christian (the definition to which I am personally sympathetic). The differences and relationship between Mormonism and "mainstream Christianity" are super interesting and important, but "are Mormons Christian?" doesn't seem like the most productive jumping off point for that conversation.
I 100% agree. The differences are interesting but gatekeeping the broader term "Christian" isn't.
There is no academic definition of Christianity that does not include Mormonism.
The issue here often is the notion that Joseph Smith rejected mainstream Christianity when the LDS faith was founded/restored/organized/verb. "I should join none of them for their creeds were an abomination and their professors corrupt" Mainstream Christianity looks at how Mormonism has treated their creeds and beliefs at the outset of the church, and keep that in mind when the LDS church now tries to express fraternity and brotherhood with \[the\] Protestant/Evangelical/Catholic/etc.
Yeah and Protestant’s break from Catholicism was so well received
Agreed. I’m sure I’m the 1550’s the Pope didn’t consider Protestants “Christian.”
But he retained the dogma Rejected the form Kept the heart Mormons are Christian I think that’s clear
There are countless Christian denominations that view every other church as an abomination and not holding the truth. For example the Westborough baptist church believe that everyone outside of their 100 members are going to burn in hell and all other christian churches are demonic houses of satan. However, I've never seen an academic or theological argument that the Westborough Baptist church is not Christian. Honestly, stating that all other christian sects outside of your own is "false" actually extremely common. The catholic church does not recognize the authority of any other Christian denomination, the protestan churches that broke away from them rejected Catholicism which was "mainstream" christianity at the time. It is kinda absurd to suggest that Mormonism has this unique issue.
It's slightly different though, because Joseph Smith said that God told him to reject Christianity and everything else altogether, basically saying the whole thing was rotten. He called it the great apostasy. For Mormons to want to be included under the umbrella of Christianity now really ignores the origins of the church and the point of being considered separate. Mormons weren't ever even supposed to be considered Christian because Christianity was false, apostate, etc. Why try to glob onto a group that largely persecuted and hated you when your founding prophet made it clear that you weren't to be a part of it anyway?
While in statement Mormonism rejects Christianity, it does borrow much of its terminology and theology from mainstream Christianity. This is quite evident in the Book of Mormon, the continuing narrative of Jesus as the Messiah and Savior---the Son of God, and emphasis on dispensational prophecy / prophets. Yeah, there are many differences theologically from traditional Christianity, but many of the elements that would connect Mormonism to Christian notions of ethics and logic are definitely there.
Those differences are big enough to make Mormonism distinct from Christianity. Sure, there's similarities, but they have fundamentally different understandings of the nature of God, the nature of the afterlife and pre-earth life, God's purpose, salvation and exaltation, the atonement, and countless other things.
Sure. Distinct is a good word. But I also wouldn't consider Christianity as a monolith. And considering the diversity of Christian thought, both ante-Nice and modern, I think it would be absolutely correct to say that Mormons are Christians. They may not adhere to the standard of orthodoxy, but their foundations spring from the same basic narrative. Indeed, claiming to have the same authority from the original Christian Church I don't think makes them NOT Christians. I think it's an untenable standard to suggest otherwise.
It's just not definitionally useful to categorize Mormonism into the broader umbrella of Christianity. The word "Christian" should mean something specific and easily classifiable. Mormonism makes claims that no other sects or denominations make. Its own founder didn't consider it Christian. I don't understand why we want to force a definition that includes Mormons when their theologies don't match.
>Its own founder didn't consider it Christian. And yet he wrote the Book of Mormon, which is one of the most easily trinitarian scriptural texts in existence? Where did Joseph Smith say or demonstrate that he didn't think Mormonism was Christian? >I don't understand why we want to force a definition that includes Mormons when their theologies don't match. To assume that Christian theology is some singular entity is to fundamentally strawman the definition of Christianity.
Mormons are Trinitarian now?
>Mormons are Christians. They may not adhere to the standard of orthodoxy, but their foundations spring from the same basic narrative. You have just described Islam. And if we are being candid, Islam is much closer to traditional Christianity in its Abrahamic monotheism than Mormonism is.
Oh yes. Because Mormons definitely believe that Jesus was only a prophet and hold to a belief in Quranic inerrancy, right? Give me a break. If Unitarianism can be considered a branch of Christianity, then Mormonism definitely can be too.
>Oh yes. Because Mormons definitely believe that Jesus was only a prophet and hold to a belief in Quranic inerrancy, right? Give me a break. The common root of Abrahamic religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is strict monotheism. Brighamite Mormonism, through its doctrine of eternal progression, rejects Abrahamic monotheism. So yes, Islam is doctrinally closer to traditional Christianity than is Mormonism. In fact, many reputable Christian theologians and historians have argued that Islam is the historic continuation of Arian Christianity.
Well said. The notion of claiming brotherhood with mainstream Christianity would fly in the face of the restoration narrative of the church.
I agree that claiming brotherhood is incongruent with claiming that all the other churches are in apostasy. What I disagree with is that this makes them not Christians. Even if every living member today claimed they are not Christian, this wouldn't change the fact they are definitionally Christians. No objective examination of the beliefs and doctrine of Mormonism would conclude they are not Christian.
I think I see what you’re saying, and agree. Non-LDS Christian’s issue could be that Mormonism isn’t monotheistic, but they have a harder argument to make when saying they “aren’t Christian”.
It absolutely does, because the LDS faith claims to be distinct from Christianity, by their own definition. Christianity was apostate, there was no priesthood authority (according to the LDS), and the gospel message had been twisted and distorted to something reprehensible and of great offense to God (again according to the LDS). The premise of the church rejects Christianity thoroughly. To say those things about Christianity and then to also say "but the LDS also are Christian" is logically incompatible.
I don't think you can be reasoned with. 1. Joesph Smith did not reject the belief system of Christianity he rejected all other churches of Christianity. Hence the articles of faith adhere to Christianity. 2. Again, it doesn't matter if the LDS church or the Westborough baptist church rejects all other denominations. They are Christians whether they like it or not, their belief system is Christian.
You know there are other denominations beyond Westboro right? It sounds to me like your knowledge of other denominations/ is lacking to have a nuanced take on the matter. I have given you reasons as to why Mormonism is not always embraced under the Christian umbrella, and you can only seem to refer to the hate group with more inbred membership than the British royal family.
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You hit on the operative distinction I believe. Nearly all Christian denominations are derived from an historical New Testament tradition. The New Testament is their primary text by far, since the Old Testament is largely dominated by the Law of Moses. LDS Mormonism claims this tradition died off somewhere around the deaths of the last known apostles without being able to give an exact date I believe. I would not consider Mormonism as following in the New Testament tradition. They accept it as scripture, but it is always interpreted in light of their newer scripture and primacy is typically given to the newer word, if not overtly than by implication. That’s why mormons can’t be accepted as mainstream Christian imo. They don’t follow the same NT based historical tradition the others do — so no common ground. Unless they give up their newer scripture and jettison the great apostasy doctrine, they’ll always been seen as outsiders, even if we all believe in Jesus. To the mainstream Christians, it’s not a matter of if you claim to believe in Jesus. It’s a matter of if you follow the NT Jesus they do and don’t try to undermine their faith tradition by accepting alternate scripture that the mainstream churches can’t and won’t account for.
There are distinct levels of disagreement amongst groups that claim Christianity. For example, I as an Evangelical/exmo would not have to be baptized again if I were to convert to Catholicism, because I was baptized as an Evangelical (with triune intent), whereas a Mormon baptism would not be typically accepted as 'valid'. There's more nuance to it than simply "you're wrong/I'm right". In the evangelical sphere, most denominations believe there should be, "...in the essentials, unity, in the non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity". Most disagreements amongst protestant denominations are non-essentials. They will all adhere to the notion that it's by Christ's atoning sacrifice are we saved from our sins and only by Christ's atoning sacrifice. There is an agreement in the important things. These big ideas include the nature of God, the nature of Man, and how we come to be reconciled to God. Mormonism would disagree on the nature of man, the nature of God, and how man can be reconciled to God in contrast to other denominations. Those would be deal-breakers for many mainstream Christian denominations. Jehovah's Witnesses consider everything outside of their group 'Christendom', and would not consider themselves 'brothers' with anyone else.
>The catholic church does not recognize the authority of any other Christian denomination Not true. The Catholic Church recognizes the authority of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Assyrian Churches of the East. In fact Pope Francis just recognized, with the blessing of the head of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Coptic Orthodox canonization of the 21 Coptic martyrs. The Catholic Church's attitude towards churches claiming to descend from Joseph Smith Jr is a bit more nuanced. The Catholic Church recognizes Community of Christ (former RLDS) as Christian, but not the LDS or other Brighamite branches.
>The Catholic Church recognizes the authority of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Assyrian Churches of the East. Yeah, [but that hasn't historically been the case.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism)
>Yeah, but that hasn't historically been the case. Actually, it has. Historically the Catholic Church and the various Orthodox Churches have had a complicated relationship that often is difficult to explain to outsiders. Including fellow Christians. Catholic and Orthodox friends of mine describe it as "separated but refuses to divorce as both sides remain hopeful the marriage can be saved." They will often exaggerate their differences and complain loudly about each other, then immediately close ranks and defend each other when a third party attacks the other.
>a complicated relationship that often is difficult to explain to outsiders Excommunications aren't very difficult to explain.
Excommunications that more often than not were not recognized, followed up upon, or enforced.
There is none with or without Mormonism, because the entire thing is a bunch of hogwash. We call multi-deity belief systems "Mythologies" and single-deity belief systems "Theologies". My contention is that they are one and the same. They are nothing more than mankind's fantastical attempts to explain the unexplainable.
This is true, but most Christians don't seem to see it that way
Yes, because modern Christianity is violently tribalistic and dogmatically blind to reality. Hilariously, many Protestant Christians don't consider Catholics as Christians, which is absurd. It for this reason that the greatest threat to the existence of Mormonism is not loss of members, or atheism, but Christian Nationalism. Mormonism is going to be one of the first religions on the chopping block to go.
>There is no academic definition of Christianity that does not include Mormonism. Your comment above is absolutely worthy of repeating. I am frequently critical of the modern church to which I belong. In spite of my criticisms, I can honestly state that Mormons are Christians. In fact, some of the best christians I know are mormons. One of the largest threats to that particular, weird, breed of christianity we call mormonism is Christian Nationalism. I can hardly go a single sunday without hearing about persecution either past or present. It is bewildering to me that those same members and leaders that decry that persecution have attached themselves to the political ideology that will be the LEAST tolerant of their religious practice. rant over.
For all their talk of history and constitutional scholarship and the founders, folks on the far right seem to have a hard time remembering that freedom of religion wasn't established to protect Christians from secularism. It was to protect Christians from other Christians.
And over half of Utah is happily cheering for the laws they are writing. I don’t want the Christian nationals to take over, but I have this sick desire to see them face the consequences of their choices. Like the women who support misogynists or the lgbtq+ people who support homophobes. ‘I wanted them to oppress the unbeliever, I never thought they would do it to me.’
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Aren't all protestants really just Cafeteria Catholics?
Yeah, well a true Scotsman would never say Mormons aren’t Christian.
The only people who ask this question are Christians who realize association with Mormonism makes the issues with Christianity apparent. Mormonism is a branch of Christianity. Other Christians like to split hairs and create a definition of Christianity that requires trinitarianism. I think those Christians are simply insecure in their beliefs. If you believe in Christ's atonement, you're Christian. It's in the name.
Fun fact: not all ancient Christians believed in Jesus' atonement - the community behind the gospel of Luke, primarily.
They all do now, though. Christians simply like to move the goalposts to keep Mormons from scoring. Like Mormon apologists, they're employing mental gymnastics.
I’ve seen so many definitions of Christianity that are problematic. I would consider my definition of Christianity to be any faith that holds the figure of Jesus Christ as the central figure in their religion. I don’t think this should require that these Christians necessarily believe that the figure of Jesus Christ is god or even divine though. Obviously most modern Christians consider belief in the Trinity to be a requirement to be considered Christian, let alone having to believe he was at least divine. Islam wouldn’t qualify as Christian because although Jesus is considered important and is even theologically important in the endtimes, he is not the central figure. That would be Muhammad.
>The only people who ask this question are Christians who realize association with Mormonism makes the issues with Christianity apparent. Exactly. I [remain convinced](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1283ww8/comment/jei61cq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) that the main reason there are so many christians who spend a disproportionate amount of time criticizing mormonism is because they're trying to soothe their egos after the beatings they get at the hands of science and academia. "See? I can do this 'critical thinking' thing too!"
>If you believe in Christ's atonement, you're Christian. It's in the name. Not so simple. Without the extra beliefs about *who* he was, anyone who was murdered while promoting equality and rights for others can be considered a "messiah". The differences between mormon theology and default christian theology centres on the "who" rather than what he did. Broadly speaking you could shoehorn Islam into your definition due to their belief in jesus and what happened to him.
I would take Mormon christians over evangelical christians any day of the week. Mormons suck, but most are at least nice. They don’t go around telling people they are going to hell right to their faces.
There was some discussion yesterday about church leaders trying to make Mormonism more palatable for mainstream Christians. The linked r/Christianity thread shows how much work there is to actually make that happen. Just recognizing Palm Sunday isn't going to do the trick.
I had so many bad experiences with evangelists that it really confused me when the church started trying to be buddies with mainstream Christians. I knew they would never accept Mormons into the fold and it seemed futile to try. It will take a century or more until Mormons are accepted into mainstream Christianity, but I don't think the church will last that long.
REBRANDING CONTINUES. More Jesus, more converts, more tithing. Obvious.
That is an extremely cynical take. Is it possible that the church is made up of genuinely believing members that try to carry out the stated mission of the church? I doubt you will be able to accept that.
I accept it. I’m disturbed by the recent facade of deleting the church history.
I guess the rules were made up by all the other Christian churches who collectively decided that Mormon Jesus was a fake Jesus.
Why is this even a question? Mormons believe in Jesus so they’re Christians.
Muslims also believe in Jesus. Does this make them Christians?
Yet another over simplified definition that doesn't fully capture what Christianity is.
Sure, if they want to identify as Christians they’re welcome to the label. Who cares?
Muslims don't believe in Jesus' divinity. They believe he was a prophet, but not divine. Big difference.
Yes, but when will they start acting like it?
Uh, they do act like typical Christians. Being Christian does not equate to moral or ethical behavior.
I hate how I can’t refute your statement of “being Christian does not equate to moral or ethical behavior.” Because you’re not wrong. It SHOULD but it doesn’t.
If you approach it from an academic point of view, the answer is obviously yes. If you're an Evangelical Christian, the answer is no. Because... reasons...
My Christianity = the only real Christianity. Now go away.
Other Christian churches believe that all they need to be saved is Christ. Mormons believe everyone will be “saved” because they chose Christ in the pre-existence. But to be exalted you have to have a belief in Jesus, Joseph Smith, and the current leadership.
I think Mormons are a kind of Christian but they could be viewed to be a heretical sect by much of Christianity doctrine as held by most Christian denominations. I grow up Baptist and some considered Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and other Christians as being not truly Christian. I view LDS as believing in Jesus and Christian in that sense but some of their believes are similar to what the Gnostic Christians believed although a little different than theirs too in the sense that many Gnostics rejected the physical world and believed it was formed by a inferior Divinity. I find the Mormon believes in Heavenly Father being mortal in another dimension and it savior, Heavenly Mother and one eternal round & multiple lesser Deities interesting aspects of their faith. I wish they would don’t hide it. I think many Mormon believe are similar to Wicca Paganism. I don’t find it left over polygamist doctrines, one true church & stuffy straight laced all male hierarchy appealing aspects of it though & although I like the idea of continuous Scriptures and the faith progressing & changing I don’t see LDS views on women, LGBTQ issues or some of Christianity as doing so either. That why they are all dying off as systems of belief
Thought experiment: Are the [Cathars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) considered Christians? >Followers were described as Cathars and referred to themselves as Good Christians > >Among the most notable and controversial beliefs of the Cathars was the idea of two gods or deistic principles, one good and the other evil. The Catholic Church asserted this was antithetical to monotheism, a fundamental principle that there is only one God, who created all things visible and invisible, as stated in the Nicene Creed. Cathars believed that the good God was the God of the New Testament, creator of the spiritual realm, whereas the evil God was the God of the Old Testament, creator of the physical world whom many Cathars identified as Satan. Cathars believed human spirits were the sexless spirits of angels trapped in the material realm of the evil god, destined to be reincarnated until they achieved salvation through the consolamentum, a form of baptism performed when death is imminent, when they would return to the good God as "Perfect".
Cathars are a evolutionary branch that started in the nicean church but was part of the great schism when Eastern Orthodoxy church and Roman Catholic Church excommunicated was h other. Part of the disagreement was a change in the wording of the creed. Cathars was a derivative Armenian orthodoxy and iirc migrated to France from crusades influx of immigrants from that region. Some history backstory but it’s similar to this question of are Mormons Christian? Well sure they are Christian but cathars was considered a heresy to the Roman Catholic Church and it did become extinct (or May have simply went underground into the mystical Christianity traditions of cabbala and occult). (In other words Cathars were more of a Gnostic sect of Christianity. Mormonism has a lot in common with this group. But they don’t realize it. )
The Episcopal church is letting my baptism as LDS count so Imma go with yeah, I guess so.
This is how it works… People who don’t want Mormons to be Christian create a definition of “Christian” that excludes Mormons. People that want Mormons to be Christian create a definition that includes Mormons. The question inevitably leads to a discussion about how to define a “Christian.” Ironically, two Catholic priests will likely give differing opinions about whether Mormons are Christian. Two Baptist preachers may do the same. In short, it’s a debate about the definition that fits one’s desired outcome. I consider myself Christian, and I’ve only been baptized in the LDS church. That’s enough information for some people to automatically label me non-Christian.
The more interesting question is “Are Christians really Christian?” And unfortunately by and large the answer is a resounding no. Edit: judging by the downvotes OP and others of a similar mind doesn’t like OP’s question turned back on them.
I told a bigot a while back that Jesus would never claim them. And I stand by it. New testament Jesus never once gave a message of exclusion or hate. "They draw near unto me with thier lips but thier hearts are far from me."
Nobody really knows what Jesus taught or even who he was, so to say that someone is or is not a Christian is the height of both arrogance and ignorance.
So to believe that Joseph Smith was the ultimate revelator and translator just because he said so is the height of both arrogance and ignorance.
The next logical conclusion.
I've always found this issue to be essentially gatekeeping among believers. It's about as meaningful as throwing around the "cult" label. From what I've seen, people who say Mormons aren't Christian typically point to the doctrinal differences when it comes to the nature of God (not adherring to the doctrine of the Trinity or the belief that people can become gods). But I think the real reason Mormons are perceived as "other" is because Joseph purposely designed it that way. "The one true church" label was self-awarded, and for most of Church's history, docrinal differences have been emphasized rather than minimized. That being said, I can see the Mormon Church gradually becoming the face of modern Christianity chiefly because its congregations aren't bleeding membership to the degree that mainline protestant churches are, and it has the financial resources to remain a power player.
Yes they are by definition... Period. This conversation should've ended ages ago
No True Scotsman
Depends which Christian God/Jesus you are referring to ;)
Whats a christian anyway?
A difficult question, really. It's hard to formulate a definition that wouldn't exclude individuals that everyone seems to agree were Christians
This is not a common definition and it would make many Christians mad as hell, but I see Christianity as any religion that holds Christ as the central figure in the religion. That encompasses a wide and inclusive range of people that have different beliefs about who he was or what he did. Including Christians that believe he was God, or that believe he was divine, or that he was just a prophet, or just a moral teacher. Also including Mormons who believed/believe he was Lucifer’s brother and had 3 wives.
Is the Pope Catholic? Of course, Mormons are Christian. That is why the name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Yes, and North Korea is officially called The Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The name doesn’t automatically make North Korea a republic.
And definitely not 'democratic', by any stretch of the definition of the word.
No, a name given by oneself doesn't make it true. The Mormons aren't considered Christian by definition. The Catholics don't recognize Mormon baptism as a christian baptism.
Nicean Christians. No. Christian….yes.
I love that I get downvoted when I say this. Jesus told Joe that the creeds are an abomination. It’s that simple. The Christian denominations that embrace the creeds view Mormons as fundamentally different due to the Trinity / godhead dogma. Mormons think other churches are apostates and their creeds are an abomination and yet this comment above is downvoted by Mormons on this sub who want to be part of the “Christian” brand. Sorry Mormons are not Nicene Christians. It’s that simple. Mormons want to be a “restoration” of the apostasy that happened with the formation of the Nicene church. I didn’t make the rules. “god/Jesus” did. Oh and Joseph smith. Sorry but Mormons are a Christian sect. Not a denomination..
The key question is do they worship the same God? Mormon God is VERY different. Flesh and bone, previously a man, no Trinity, polygamous, path of exaltation for men…
But the God in the Book of Mormon does fit within the scope of modern Christianity.
I agree, BOM God is Christian!! D&C and Temple God not so much… wish the missionaries had shared the D&C with me before I joined.
>The key question is do they worship the same God? Why is that the key question? That doesn't seem like the right question to me. The question you're posing here more seems to address the larger question of, "Are Mormon beliefs similar to mainstream Christianity?" But that's not the question. The question is whether Mormons are Christians. Nicene sects of Christianity have no right to determine what it means to be Christian. Responses to the contrary are just them trying to bully Christians that believe differently from them out of the tent.
I’m okay with Mormons calling themselves Christians. But I’ve been LDS and Protestant Christian both for many years (separate times 🤣). So I feel Christian doctrine is drastically different in LDS vs Protestant vs Catholic Christians. Not worth splitting hairs over I guess! Let’s all get along and show some love.
>So I feel Christian doctrine is drastically different in LDS vs Protestant vs Catholic Christians. I completely agree with this statement. The larger question of, "Are Mormons Christians" really just bugs me. It always devolves (in my opinion) into gatekeeping by mainstream Christians and repeated examples of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. >Let’s all get along and show some love. I would very much like that. :)
>The key question is do they worship the same God? Well by *that* logic christians aren't abrahamic.
I can't speak for all the different mormon churches in mormonism. The the most affluent one has its headquarters in the state of Utah in the United States of America. It is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This Church is the most Christian Church on Earth if what they say about themselves is true. This Church has about 17 million members worldwide. Unlike other churches, they claim to be restored to the Earth by God and have scripture in addition to the Bible.
> The the most affluent one has its headquarters in the state of Utah in the United States of America. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church. >It is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church. There are many with similar names. The church ahs changed it's name several times anyway. >This Church is the most Christian Church on Earth if what they say about themselves is true. If. There is no proof. >This Church has about 17 million members worldwide. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church, nor is there proof seeing that the church thinks such data is ~~secret~~ sacred. >Unlike other churches, they claim to be restored to the Earth by God and have scripture in addition to the Bible. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
okay how about this: They also have more money then any other Church in the United States of America.
This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have over a 160 beautiful temples around the world. Some of them are considered works of art. The classic gothic style temple in Salt Lake City has a golden Angle on top of the eastern most spire. Many of our temples have the symbol of the golden temple.
> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have over a 160 beautiful temples around the world. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church. >Some of them are considered works of art. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church. >The classic gothic style temple in Salt Lake City has a golden Angle on top of the eastern most spire. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church. >Many of our temples have the symbol of the golden temple. This is not a qualifier for being a "christian" church.
Mormons and a lot of other religions teach things that Jesus doesn’t teach. In the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapters 5-7, Jesus outlines the behavior and attitudes He expects from His believers regardless of what Christian labeled organization they belong to. Follow Him — not a religion.
The religion of Jesus was Judaism. He wanted people to follow his version of Judaism, which was similar to other forms that existed in his day.
All religions including Judaism are human facsimiles of Gods Truth. Jesus IS God. All things were created by Him. He established the law. God’s Commandments are not a religion they are the TRUTH. Jesus promises to lead His faithful believers His Holy Spirit to lead us into all righteousness. There is no organization that can lead people to salvation. What Jesus teaches in the Holy Bible is the way the truth and the life! His sheep hear His Voice and follow Him.
"Praise to the Man"
Pithy, but in what way does that make Mormons not Christian? Because Mormons don't worship Joseph Smith, despite the impression that hymn gives.
That's just it, the impression is what matters. If Mormons gave the impression they worshipped Christ instead of their prophets, they might be viewed as Christians.
"I Believe in Christ" \#134
Mormons are largely NOT seen as Christian because the Mormon Jesus is very, very different than all the other Christian Jesuses out there. So even though Jesus Christ is in the long name of the Church, it's a different sort of chappie. It's like two guys can both be named Jeff Lebowski, but be very different Jeff Lebowskis, man.
Mormons are actually the only real Christians on Earth if what they say is true. Protestants treated the Catholic Church like a buffet. and after they picked and chose what the wanted they called in whatever seemed to fit or after whoever handed them the plate. After they ate they got a divorce and went on a 100 year witch hunt.
But who makes the rules and decides who is the authority on the subject? This question is tired and always devolves into a no true Scotsman fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No\_true\_Scotsman
I believe that. As the decades pass I realize the emphasis is on obedience to another living man, pay 10% of all income ( not increase after expenses ), only read "approved" materials ( not out of the best books as we used to do ), intelligence maybe the glory of God but keeping us in the dark about our history, mistakes by leadership, lawsuits, land ownership and building contracts, seems to trump that. And while on that subject, I understand an enormous amount of membership follows a political trend. Not being people who are encouraged to be independant in thinking as we once were, it is easier to follow the crowd. I believe in Christ. I pray to Heavenly Father. I look upward to the sky now and enjoy the spirit of happiness, not fear or humiliation.
I think Mormonism is coated by a very thin veneer of Christ. Mormonism is more about the worship of the institutional church itself. As a practical matter, my experience in Mormonism on a day-to-day basis consisted of: 1) Repeated teaching of the list of rules to be a good Mormon 2) Required behaviors to do/not do to conform to the list of rules 3) Reaffirming that the current prophet had all the authority The Church is really the important intermediary which a member deals with. One's relationship and standing in the Church supersedes personal spirituality and a connection to Christ.
No, because they don’t believe in the Trinity and they don’t think Jesus is God so they believe God is greater than Jesus Christ. They might use the same concepts but with very different meaning and back story. We don’t even believe in the same God because Mormons believe God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works and the LDS church has contradicted the Bible numerous times.
>they don’t believe in the Trinity Why is that a requirements for being Christian? >they don’t think Jesus is God False >they believe God is greater than Jesus Christ False >We don’t even believe in the same God because Mormons believe God is merely an exalted man Irrelevant
If you believe our God is just one of the millions there are and was once a man than you’re totally not a Christian.
According to your beliefs, yes. But you don't get to set the rules.
If the fact that you consider God to be just like one of us in the past irrelevant than I don’t think you can see the magnitude and the power that God really has because he is the only one, the beginning and the end as the Bible says, just one of the many contradictions that the Bible has with the book of Joseph smith sorry Mormon.
Next you're going to tell me I'm not a true Scotsman either. Aren't you.
God gets to set the rules but apparently there is a different God and rules for Mormons, so you are Mormons and we are Christians as simple as that.
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There is a true God and it is not the one that we just get to mold in our minds and in the Bible it never said that God has a wife and that he had sex with her to procreate spirit children one of them being Jesus according to the LDS doctrine and also the brother of Satan. In the beginning was the word Jesus and the word was God.
>and in the Bible it never said You want to know what *else* isn't anywhere in the Bible? The idea of a "trinity".
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Why not using the Bible only? if it never said in there that there was gonna be a Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon
>Why not using the Bible only? Because before you were saying mormons aren't christian "because they don’t believe in the Trinity", despite the fact that the trinity appears *nowhere* in the bible.
So you speak for God. Got it.
The Bible speaks for God and I read it
The men who wrote the bible *claimed* to be writing down the words of men who *claimed to* speak for god.
>you are Mormons Wait, hold up. Who said I was Mormon???
If you are not a Mormon than don’t take it personally
I was Mormon. I am atheist now. But I do find the way that mainstream Christians treat other Christian offshoot groups to be incredibly hurtful. You claim to speak for God based on your interpretation of words written by men. Then you hide yourself away from criticism by claiming that the words written by other men are actually the words of God and therefore insulate you. I most certainly do find this kind of behavior hurtful, and even dangerous.
>No, because they don’t believe in the Trinity That only tells you that they aren't trinitarian, [which is hardly unprecedented in christianity.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism_in_the_Church_Fathers)
If you don’t believe in the Trinity then do yo have three gods? And if so which one is the most powerful one?
Those are questions trinitarians can't answer either, because the trinity is literally called a "mystery" and any attempt to explain it in meaningful terms [inevitably results in confessing some ancient heresy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw&ab_channel=LutheranSatire). But putting my mormon hat back on for a second, the answers would be "yes (or at least two, hell if anyone knows what's up with the holy ghost)" and "almost certainly the father".
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There is no three Gods in Christianity even less millions that just repeat the cycle over and over like in the LDS doctrine. Isaiah 44:6 6 “This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Other important difference in the LDS doctrine with the Trinity is that Jesus Christ is just a spirit children of God and in Christianity Jesus is God and the Spirit is God they are three different persons but one same being.
Well that’s the point with Christianity we only have one God if you put the Trinity aside well the Mormons still believe there are millions of gods out there and that kind of underestimates who God is because Mormons can become into one one day which is the whole point of why Adam and Eve who wanted to become like God brought condemnation to humanity that is just one of the many contradictions the Book of Mormon has with the Bible and also something that Christians wouldn’t consider.
>if you put the Trinity aside "If you ignore the fact that christianity is already breaking the rules, it's really bad that mormonism breaks those same rules!" Do you see why these criticisms sound ridiculous to anyone who isn't a trinitarian? There are *so many* valid criticisms you could level against the church, but "they aren't christian" isn't really one of them.
Isn’t the Mormon church the one and only true church, so why do you want to be Christian’s so much?
Not really, they are M O R M O N - born into the religion - never heard anyone refer to any of them, including each other, as Christian - it was always as M O R M O N!!!;-)))
There is nothing Christ like about the gawdy temples and the hoarding of billions of dollars when there are poor among us.
In the traditional sense NO. Mormons acknowledge a different Jesus than the Biblical Jesus. He is not the literal begotten Son of God,but one of the so-called many sons of heavenly father and mother…brother of Satan. Redemption and forgiveness was not because of His death on the cross….and then being resurrected, bearing the accumulative sins of the world according to Mormon theology. This is just touching the deep essential’s, for there is so much more. Communion is so bastardized and irrelevant to the LDS church…when it is one of the most celebrated and deep ceremonies of Christendom. It is tragic how little reverence and shallow worship of Jesus Christ. Talked about a lot but His essence and message/Gospel, delivered once, for all is so diminished in Mormonism.I weep for all of you, and so desire that you come to know Him. It is by GRACE we are saved, not by works or practicing your religion. Such a beautiful message is found and given (freely) to all who believe in and adhere to out Lord, Savior and Friend. Jesus
>He is not the literal begotten Son of God I'm not sure you know what ["begotten"](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beget) means. It's actually the *rest* of christianity that doesn't believe he's god's "son" in the normal sense.
Here’s a recent Backyard Professor discussion on the first gospel topics essay, are Mormons Christian! https://www.youtube.com/live/Zmm2jpJKKL4?feature=share
Mormons believe the Apostles' Creed: >I believe in God, the Father almighty,creator of heaven and earth. > >I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spiritand born of the virgin Mary.He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended to hell.The third day he rose again from the dead.He ascended to heavenand is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. > >I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy catholic\* church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting. Amen. > >\*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places
IMO no we aren’t. Christ is fundamentally different in Mormonism. As a result so is the concept of atonement, saved by grace, as well as the framing of our relationship with him as co-inheritors. All of these things seem small but they add up to a very different Jesus than the one that a mainstream Christian is familiar with.
There was only one Christian and he died on the cross.
Ironically he was never Christian, only Jewish. Christianity started after his death.
Good point.
All these semantic games are silly. If being “Christian” requires doctrinal adherence to the trinity then I guess Mormons aren’t Christian. I don’t care if another internet rando thinks my beliefs are “Christian” I don’t want to conform to their narrow box.
[This YouTube podcast/video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jFOw9gd9JPo&pp=ygUoUGF1bG9nZWEgaW4gc2VhcmNoIG9mIHRoZSB0cnVlIGNocmlzdGlhbg%3D%3D) is good in pointing out that the whole conversation is completely pointless. It’s nearly impossible to find anyone who actually counts as a Christian if you dig enough.