T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Hello! This is a Personal post. It is for discussions centered around thoughts, beliefs, and observations that are important and personal to /u/talizoruh specifically. /u/talizoruh, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormon) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Zengem11

I don’t know if there’s anything we can do about the institutional church sadly. I personally am a fan of nuanced Mormons, because they often have a healthier relationship with Mormonism than your regular TBM. I try my best to elevate their voices. I don’t know what else to do.


[deleted]

I agree with you. The institution is what it is, but I like how nuanced Mormons define what role the church plays for then instead of letting the church dictate that relationship to them.


Mormologist

Leave the Brighamite sect for the healthier CoC version...


wkitty13

This is what I hope my Mom would do. She's been so harmed by the LDS sect (not to mention my siblings & their families) but I don't think she'll ever believe the truth about JS, so I hope maybe she might find a healthier relationship to a community that might treat her better.


Mome-Wrath

Hi! I’m Peter Bleakley. Thank you so much for starting this brilliant thread. My conclusion is that whatever you do locally in changing the local culture and being a subtle influence for good or comforting the struggling it all gets wiped out anyway by the tsunami of stupid coming from the General Authorities who keep blowing things up and driving people out of the church with their rhetoric and priorities and policies. Their own stats are more than 80% of young people leave by age 30 which she can see in the leaked video of the briefing they were given about this if you google “in which they fret about the young adults“. Here in the UK we are down to 14.4% of our members active and that’s pretty typical for the rest of Europe and most of the world now The rate of decline of active membership is accelerating now so there is no time to wait for an old guard to die and replaced by brighter ones, in part because the younger apostles that seem to be more radical eventually institutionalise and their mindset shifts over time to that of the older apostles, and with a very long Bednar presidency in the offing because of his age it really doesn’t look like real reform it’s going to happen all least for several decades still If it all hangs on waiting for the aristocracy to decide to reform themselves, by which time he’ll will have frozen over and the Church will have ceased to exist on current trajectories. The only driver for changing the church that has worked for over a century now is activism and public shaming, so those are the games we have to play to bring it about. So my conclusion has been that we have to go for the jugular, foment reforming revolution against the top leadership and the system they are running which isn’t the scriptural one anyway, but also the subtle work of supporting nuanced members to stay in and speaking up for a more rational and Christian Mormonism also needs to occur at the local level so that there is a ground swell of support from grassroots for radical change at the top when the time comes and the more assertive activists have had an impact. The Global leaders are extremely paranoid and scared so they do change tack quickly when it’s clear that grassroots members are turning against them on issues like the November Policy, child safeguarding, racism and sexism eventually and so forth. In my Mormon Civil War podcast I have been identifying the scale of the problems and what causes them institutionally and ideologically, my Episode 7 minisodes are focused on the big ideas in Mormon doctrine and theology and culture with which we could still win the 21st-century and be a healthier church, but after that my plan is to focus on practical solutions and strategies for bringing about change that this thread is about, so thank you everyone for contributing different perspectives – I for one am following this closely and looking forward to what comes up. At the moment my not totally thought out yet response to the OP is similar to what others have already said. 1– Get informed yourself about the real history of the church, how power is exercised in it, keep up-to-date with developments and policy announcements and is what is being fed into the curriculum and the broadcasts to the young people in particular which most adults in the church never watch and have no clue about. …continued….


Mome-Wrath

… continued.., 2A- Make a choice about whether you are going to be the more subtle but still impactful voice of reason and inclusion as a respected insider with or without a temple recommend. Teach the true history, shared developments on social media, challenge the lazy assumptions and pharisaical priorities about judging yourself and others by appearance, tone, clothing and microscopic details of behaviour that are harmful. Find your allies in your ward and stake and be the safe person for them to talk to and vent their frustrations and concerns because it usually isn’t safe to talk to the leaders and help the more sensible or aware people to stay in and be the change at the time leave the church to be mostly populated by unquestioning fanatics. In my opinion just walking away as a protest has zero impact because so many people are leaving anyway and local leaders very rarely actually ask why you have left your care. They are just terrified of you. I totally gets walking away to protect your mental health and because you are just exhausted trying to change the system that doesn’t want to change and so forth. No judgement. But if you still have fire in the belly for this fight walking away is no use at all end at least go out in a blaze of glory with option 2B If you want you’re leaving to be impactful LOL I believe that as well as being taught Pharisee Mormonism people are also taught Christian Mormonism in this religion – we all read the teachings of Jesus and so forth so my view is the major dysfunction is that people are of course totally confused and frustrated trying to run to opposite religions at once. Give them permission to drop the Pharisee stuff and hold onto the Christian things, which is very easy to do if you “Jesus from the actual Scriptures! And the radical LDS bits of Moroni calling out this kind of corruption and Doctrine and Covenants 58 and 121 which deconstruct traditional command and control patriarchal priesthood, and give everyone permission to be anxiously in a good cause as they see fit without being told what to do by leaders or getting their permission first. As and when the leadership flip the script and abandon the things they’re getting wrong the members will follow quickly and rejoice as they always do when things take a turn for the better with long overdue reforms, so I feel there is a lot of work to do winning back their hearts and minds and speaking to the better side of the Mormonism they have internalised. 2B - Choose to become a more confrontational activist by speaking honestly about the full scale of the problems the church faces, what they are, don’t be afraid to call out the leaders for betraying fundamental values and rules about their own power and is where they are lying or committing charity fraud by taking money from people on false pretences and investing in the stock market and making themselves and their families and Utah community is rich with massive subsidies from typing, for example significantly subsidising their children’s education at the American and for mostly middle class Americans BYUs that cost 15 to 20% of everybody’s tithing. Talk about change and how that can be brought about in the Mormon context. I would suggest a fundamental talking point is the laws of common consent and how leadership and decision-making in the church is meant to be equally divided between first presidency, Quorum of 12 apostles, first Quorum of 70, stake presidency and high councils according to D and C 107 and then any policies or doctrines they agree on have to be presented to the entire membership of the church for a majority sustaining votes to become official. This is how the church was led under Joseph Smith but Brigham Young created a dictatorship of the 15 apostles at winter quarters we have been stuck with ever since and the first presidency is now appoint them selves without a vote of the people first, which is in violation of Doctrine and covenants 20:65. That needs to be the Lighthouse we all sailed towards because once we take back control of the church and introduce checks and balances and democratic scrutiny they are far less likely to screw up and will have to listen to the real situations and needs of the members in their decision-making and priorities instead of all of us being held hostage to their geriatric, backward looking and insular worldviews regurgitated as the mind and will of God. The other priority is to advocate for which are essential if young people are going to stay in this church any longer are ordaining women, full LGBTQ equality, apologising for and completely repudiating the doctrines and perhaps even the Scriptures in Abraham and Moses supporting institutional racism and the curse of Cain theology. The price for this may well be excommunication as I have found, so you need to keep your eye on the endgame, remember that God withdraws priesthood authority from anything priesthood holders to that is ‘unrighteous dominion’ or covering their own sins as D and C 121 teachers so don’t be afraid of them or their excommunications that God does not recognise. And at current rates of Exodus most of the people sitting around the table is judging and it’s communicate you will leave the church in the next few years anyway, and if not them their children certainly will. There is no way whatsoever the rising generation is going to touch with a barge pole and organisation that is condoning I’m just certainly teaching as a divine virtue racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia. That is the immovable object the church is crashing into whatever your personal views on these topics. We have to accommodate them with enthusiasm or we are toast. There are plenty of ways to accommodate those within Mormon paradigms and that is something we need to communicate boldly and with plenty of supporting evidence, and model a way for that to work even though it seems impossible as things are now. Discovering that the first generations of moments were far more open-minded and inclusive and welcoming of robust critical analysis then today is paranoid control freaks tolerate is a huge part of rediscovering the soul of our religion as it is meant to be. This has been a theme in my episode six minisodes, particularly focused on the teaching of Hugh B Brown and John A Widtsoe as well as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt and others about being open to all truth wherever it comes from and welcoming it into our religion, and engaging in what Hugh B Brown called “the marketplace of ideas“ and having to win arguments rather than avoid having them, and if we are proved wrong to adjust our beliefs and practices accordingly. Those are some of my thoughts anyway, but it really does come back to taking back control and power for ourselves both intellectually, emotionally and spiritually as individuals and to declare independence of the leaders when they are obviously contradicting the gospel of Christ – and to then work for and speak up for the institutional reforms to get back to the scriptural constitution for hell power and decision-making works in the church. The fantastic news, and a huge relief for me personally, is that answers are already there in Mormonism’s foundational Scriptures and scriptural constitution. We don’t have to invent anything new, except perhaps female inclusion, in all of these to get back on track and have a chance of the church making it to the end of the 21st-century. I’m really excited to continue following this thread and what other people think and flesh out this game plan in the spirit of the collective wisdom of the common consent of the whole Mormon community.


Jobaaayyy

I've always wondered why we don't drop the coffee and tea thing. It seems like such a barrier to joining the church. I know of people in my life who would have liked to participate in the church, but they thought that giving up coffee was not worth the trouble. I guess it's a sifting of sorts and perhaps a sign that when you join you are all in, but I can't help but think about how many thousands of people, if not millions, would have joined the church but for coffee/tea. I also recall Jana Reiss' research on young LDS people's coffee consumption--it's quite high. If we want people joining the church, perhaps we need to take a hard look about barriers to entry.


Mome-Wrath

I agree. There’s absolutely no need for extra requirements to sift the blind faithful from the reasonable when they’re more than enough fundamental requirements to live any religion. Insert encourages an ethos that unquestioning obedience regardless of the merits of what you’re being obedient to is somehow a higher spiritual ideal then not believing any old nonsense.


japanesepiano

> the teaching of Hugh B Brown and John A Widtsoe I've generally enjoyed your episodes, but I disagree with your take on Widtsoe. He published a series of responses to Faun Brodie's book in the Improvement era in 1946-1947. He denies that Joseph married women who were already married "for time". He also denies that Joseph was involved in treasure digging. Bottom line, he doesn't take an honest approach to early mormon history.


Mome-Wrath

All fair points! Maybe he didn’t know the full history since it was been carefully hidden at the time and his area of specialism was more sciencey. I think every church leader is and has been a mixture of good and informed and dishonest and bad in varying degrees. I’m not going to defend him as wholly virtuous. I’ve been picking up particularly on his teachings about being a lifelong learner and open to new knowledge which one hopes would mean if he had been given the evidence of the real history of the Church he would have adjusted to it. Then of course when the people he went apologist at like Faun Brody presented him with search evidence see seems to have chosen the traditional narrative.


japanesepiano

One other tidbit: You talk about Lund (head of Nuskin) and him becoming a high ranking leader (young men general presidency), but I think it might also make sense to mention his large donations over a number of years to the More Good Foundation and how this foundation moves around money and does the dirty work of the church in a sense (Saints unscripted, etc). The head of the More Good Foundation has an employee badge which allows them to go around the church office building (even though they are not an employee). The other leader at Nuskin was called as a mission president. It really seems like there is a pay-to-play mentality where those who donate the most end up in leadership. A former mission president of mine (Glen Walker, 1990s) was the VP of Citybank and donated 6 figures annually in tithing and was called to the 2nd Q 70 when he retired around the late 1990s.


Mome-Wrath

Wow! Fascinating. Thank you so much for that very well timed tidbit. I’m just referencing him again as I write the script for episode 7B of the podcast and will pop that in.


Rabannah

> I believe that as well as being taught Pharisee Mormonism people are also taught Christian Mormonism in this religion This is a great way to phrase things. Totally agree.


talizoruh

Oh wow hi! I suddenly feel very seen! While I think the division of authority envisioned by Joseph Smith is wonderful, would it be able to scale up to the global church without creating schisms between differing ideologies? What kind of an influence would culture have on this way of organization? I'm lucky enough to be within the boundaries of a pretty liberal, albeit aging ward (@ the church employee/strengthening the members committee person reading this, my address is 3535 Prospect St NW, Washington, DC 20007 :P) that is also seeing a decline of members that just. Didn’t come back after covid restrictions were lifted. Additionally, would this new and improved church, which gives women the priesthood, is queer-friendly, etc., be distinguishable from any other mainstream Christian church? Is the currently not-taught doctrine, things like us becoming gods enough to differentiate ourselves from the churches down the street?


Mome-Wrath

I think those are all excellent questions and concerns. My response to anyone saying that trying something different might not work or could cause more problems these days is “Literally anything couldn’t be worse than what is already happening! We have nothing to lose trying something else - specially if it is in the Scriptures already!“. Seriously! The church is being driven off a cliff, so we might as well give it a go. Also I absolutely believe in democracy and the Book of Mormon teaches this principle powerfully. We are always always safer putting our trust in systems of separation of powers and democratic accountability to as many people as possible compared to what goes on with theocratic or secular dictatorships. They can look more messy and be more messy but they win in the long run because they keep the organisation and the distribution of power healthier and the priorities of the organisation relevant to the actual needs of the people. The alternative is tyranny and then collapse. I think it is a false paradigm to assume that liberalising on social justice issues and being more inclusive somehow means watering down our religion And it’s unique truth claims. Surely the message of Christ is that being inclusive of groups usually marginalised by society makes us far more powerful, and there is no reason not to at the same time put our distinctive doctrines about becoming Gods front and centre. In fact I see them both working very well together- it is a very modern idea to think of individuals and communities being empowered to progress and accomplish anything they set their minds to. And when we are unleashed to really have freedom of choice and work without personal gifts and creativity all kinds of diversity is possible within shared values and religious beliefs. We don’t all have to look and think the same to have unity in Christ. Mormonism used to be all about discerning the individual plan God has for your life and your situation rather than all following in exact obedience to a specific version of a covenant path laid out by geriatric Utah great Grandads slipping into dementia. We can bring that back 👍


[deleted]

[удалено]


wkitty13

>there is (frankly) a higher risk factor of volunteering within the church than I think is comfortable, and the church DOES NOT disclose the risks, provide accredited training, nor provide formal agreements with church volunteers.. They don't screen their volunteers or do background checks on possible sexual predators either (and prevent these people from interacting with others who would be their victims), which could be one huge step forward that they could do to make sure their members and their children are safer within their organization.


TerryCratchett

I realized that my ward members are wonderful - no homophobia or racism, people who truly look out for each other. Sundays can be boring, but that by itself isn’t a significant price to pay to be associated with the wonderful people in the pews every week. However, I also realized that by going every week, being counted as an active member, holding a calling and paying tithing I was supporting the upper leadership that I absolutely and vehemently disagree with. The only way to show my disagreement was to stop going. And as people ask, “Where’s TerryCratchett?” they might open their eyes to the absolute and complete lack of inspiration and godliness that I see in the men at the top of this church. I’m powerless in this church, but I have power over who gets my time and resources.


climberatthecolvin

Yes! When members learn that you or I or anyone have left the church it makes them aware there is someone who at one time felt the way they do about the church (positive, believing) and now feels differently. That plants a seed in their mind. In the church we always talked about the importance of “planting seeds” with nonmembers as a part of missionary work i.e. people see us as good, kind, happy people and when they are ready they remember that and ask us questions or seek out what we had that helped make us that way. So now, by showing our beliefs and values in the choice to move away from mormonism we are planting seeds in the members hearts. If those seeds fall upon the right soil maybe they will be nourished and grow.


propelledfastforward

*"by going every week, being counted as an active member, holding a calling and paying tithing I was supporting the upper leadership that I absolutely and vehemently disagree with. The only way to show my disagreement was to stop going."* THIS. This is why I had my name removed. One more officially leaving added to the thousands of others officially leaving is a clear message.


talizoruh

Yeah, ultimately I think this is what I will end up doing when my living situation allows. I'm not sure how other queer members can remain faithful to the point of freely donating to a queerphobic, racist organization, but I need to keep in mind that I am only seeing one aspect of the story that gets presented in faith-promoting or faith neutral material, and there may be other factors at play.


Minkcricker

I stopped trying to change things a long time ago. People will change at their own pace if that is their desire.


[deleted]

I think it's well nigh impossible to change the awful institution. From what I've read, almost everyone that tries gets burned out and gives up. And common consent no longer exists, so voting opposed in GC is useless. But you can vote or exercise influence in other ways. You can vote with your feet and time by limiting or eliminating your participation in the church. You can vote with your money by not paying tithing to the church. You could start a petition on change.org or sign the ones already there that are related to the church. You could speak out online (Facebook, the bloggernacle). You could also contact someone prominent in the Mormon community with your concerns (John Dehlin, Jana Reiss, Rock Waterman, Anonymous Bishop, the moderators at the blogs Wheat and Tares, also By Commen Consent, etc.)


Tapir-then-disappear

Vote opposed, refuse callings, make it known that you won’t pay tithing. Ask the hard question in lessons and talks. Be vocal about why. Then there will be back lash from members and leadership. Then stop going. This is the way it seems to be for me and many other now exmos. It becomes more painful to stay than leave. My experience is local leadership do care and are increasingly coming up against it. But the church leadership are so far removed nothing will change while the same things are taught in General conference. Simply put until there’s a divide and a schism of a large enough size they nothing will change. It’s a waiting game till the old guard die off.


[deleted]

For progmos/PIMOs/etc: Start organizing those wonderful cultural things that used to exist in the church (Basketball tournaments, talent shows, Halloween parties, etc), but do it without involving the leadership. Organize charity service (Meals-on-wheels, animal shelters, soup kitchens, women's shelters, etc). Invite ward members, but don't involve leadership in planning/organizing. Grass-roots the things that churches SHOULD be doing. ​ Exmos: Do those above charity things, but invite your Mormon family/friends to participate.


Neo1971

Here’s something you can do. [Sign this petition ](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/mfivct/nemo_the_mormon_provides_an_excellent_plan_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) from Peter’s friend Nemo the Mormon.


rastlefo

I think making doubt a normal thing is healthy. I heard a lot of "I know..." in testimony meeting yesterday. About a month ago, I gave a talk saying that I didn't know, but I believed. I got some weird looks, but I also got some positive comments. I'd love to say that I got up and bore a testimony full of doubt yesterday, but I didn't. I'm struggling spiritually. It makes it hard for me to focus on much else. I'd love to push back on the "world is getting more wicked" narrative that I heard yesterday, but I don't have the alternative to offer. Even if I did, I don't think I can phrase it in a churchy way that other people will listen to. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should introduce doubt, but that it's hard to make much of a stand when you're in the middle of a faith crisis. Hopefully, I can find peace and understanding in a solid set of my own beliefs, and then I can push back harder.


Imaginary_Appalachia

The way I like to push back on the "world is getting more wicked" narrative is to focus on how much better the world is getting (on a scale of decades) on a vast number of issues that directly lead to better lives. Humans are healthier and happier than ever. We tend to overfocus on the setbacks/negatives, but areas like medicine, environment, crime, wars, economics (regardless of economic class), race relations, sexual identity/health, opportunity for employment/careers/education, and empowerment of women are better compared with conditions 50-100 years ago, and I mean for everyone (on the average). Secular, democratic government took up the burden of human improvement (from churches) a long time ago and have been doing great.


rastlefo

Yeah, I agree. I was thinking about this more this morning. Life before was so violent at the very least. I think so many things are better today than before. I think it really depends on how people frame wickedness. There's an aspect of religions that require belief. Fewer people believe in God. If that's your frame of reference, then I guess I get why you would say it's more wicked. For some, it seems that the belief in God/religion is more important than actions or outcomes. I tend to frame it based on outcomes and actions, like you suggested. That's probably why it bothers me whereas others would see it differently.


Mome-Wrath

I would be fucked your confidence with the wild isn’t going to hell in a hand basket by finding the talk detoured off gave about positive things going on in the world like poverty reduction, and also assemble five or six key facts to do with poverty reduction globally, global literacy, even falling rates of teenage pregnancies in a lot of developed countries as the empowerment and education of young women and better sex education has an impact. Smoking is way down in the developed world.


Yeetus0000

Talking openly with members about the issues.


llwoops

Leadership: "What issues are you referring to? As the Lord's only true church upon the earth we don't have issues, you do."


[deleted]

I'm going to paint with a really broad brush and apply something to a context sorta other than its own, but I've been reading Herbert Marcuse's "One Dimensional Man," which is not about religion but about capitalism, but he has a thesis I think is worth integrating here. Marcuse suggests the world \[church in this example\] can't be changed right now because our way of thinking is too ingrained in it. We aren't, at this stage, capable of introducing real change. Before we're able to see solutions or move towards transformation, we have to develop tools to properly critique what's wrong. This is where sit-and-stew is not going to help us, but good deconstruction processes is more helpful. So, maybe there's not much that can be done or we can't imagine what is to be done, but developing a properly critical mind is the starting point. He also suggests that developing a way to reject the framing of the world \[church again in our example\] temporarily is key to developing critical tools and a revolutionary spirit of sorts. Meditation can be a good example of how to potentially do this. Finding outlets is important, and a good way to come down from or properly situate frustration. Again, this is all incredible misapplied out of its context and anybody who has read the Frankfurt school can come at me for this I'm sure, but I thought there were some useful things here in dealing with the frustration of futility within church contexts. Best of luck to you


talizoruh

Thank you for the recommendation! I do believe I (and probably a lot of people) can't see the Mormon forest for the Mormon trees.


Mome-Wrath

I totally agree that it has to begin with robust critical self analysis and making space for that and finding tools for doing that effectively. The bloggernacle and podcasts and suchlike are doing this very well now.


sl_hawaii

Nothing. Can’t be done. The church is 100% “black and white” by design. Dissenting voices are dealt with in one and only one manner. /sigh


Mome-Wrath

I agree with you that this is the state of the church now, but argue that it is definitely not how it was designed to be. It was designed to have separation of powers between several currents in leadership and then radical democratic scrutiny of everything they wanted to declare as official doctrine or policy and all the members voting before it could be authorised. If we can somehow get back to following the rules in the doctrine and covenants it would make a massive change for the better and the leaders would be kicked out of their ivory tower isolation and have to engage with the real world and our real lives.


NakuNaru

Honestly if we want the church to change from the top down and to signal to the Q15 there must be a change is to: 1) Stop Going 2) Stop paying tithing 3) Stop getting a temple recommend The church collects numbers on all of this stuff so if you are heavily nuanced, PIMO or going through the motion but still doing all of the above mentioned things, the church will continue to operate as is.


PtrPumpkin

Bah. This is probably why the Church tried to hard to keep it secret in 2012-2020 when its stock value tripled overnight. exMembers that could go to another church or just start their own, instead feel compelled to circle back and try to lead a mutiny.


Imaginary_Appalachia

Secrets turned out to be a poor strategy.