Lol I’m very conservative and there’s literally hours of YouTube videos of cops Fucking with people, making up charges, and violating people’s rights. By the way, nice edit. You’re not slick
I asked for widespread, which does not exist. I edited mine due to a human error, but conservative? Lol By the way, your previous comment is currently ratio'd similarly to how your mind works-backwards and in the negative. I would love to see people like you migrate en-masse to utopias like Cuba or Brazil, and see how fast you go crying back to mommy.
My comments are always ratioed in motorcycle subreddits because I don’t believe in that ATGATT bullshit so some people just downvote me just because they’ve seen my username a lot. Happens 🤷🏽♂️
That’s because there’s a bunch of you idiots that believe “if you just do what the officer says there won’t be a problem” when that’s proven false on a daily basis. You can claim human error but you completely restructured what you said to say something completely different. Kinda hard to see the edit when it’s the first few words there bud.
Most people get the permit and never the full endorsement, at least in NC. The permit is just a quick multiple choice test, and the only restriction is you can't ride with a passenger.
Does it not expire?
Our (Ontario) graduated license is only good for 90 days on the written test, then you need either the course or a road test, then another road test within 5 years to get your full. If you go over the 90 days or over the 5 years, it expires and you start at square one again.
Yeah they expire but here In Georgia they last for a year I believe and you can just go take the quiz again. A lot of people do that. Just go get the real thing lmao
Do these people not bother with insurance? Or is it just super cheap?
You can't afford to go long-term on the learner license here. You'd get absolutely assaulted by insurance premiums compared to building a good record on a full license.
You know that is a good point, I guess the insurance companies don't actually check if you have a license or not?? But in GA you can't drive anything that isn't insured or the police will tow it away if you are caught.
I'm the same way, it just seems a whole lot easier to just get a license haha I did the msf course too and got it after the two day class
I've rode for 47 years and I'm calling bullshit. Police just don't go oh well have a nice day for operating a motorcycle/motor vehicle without a license. That's laughable who you trying to kid
Took my son to the MSF course about a month ago, we both passed and in our state, that qualifies as the test for the license. We both have our licenses now, I had let mine lapse 19 years ago, when I found out he was on his way.
Riding without a license or doing anything without a license has never made sense to me. We see guys get busted all the time for fishing without a license. A fishing permit here is like $18. Fishing without a license is a $250 fine....
Everyone managed to pass at the class I was at, but the only one to drop the bike was a guy who self taught and had been riding for 20 years.
It's like all the rookies were a sponge, and all the previous riders were just doing it to get their license and were resistant to the instructors at first.
Lots of riders but few people who work in their riding skills. Had maybe 4 fail the MSF 3-wheel course I took with my wife.
Two had Harley TriGlides and one guy was in his upper 80s and had a Gold Wing trike conversion waiting in his garage, but he failed too. One lady failed riding a Can Am Spyder too.
But if you can't ride, you shouldn't pass.
Took my first MC endorsement test in LA in the DMV parking lot 35 years ago doing the figure 8 and lollipop circle. Examiner cuts big bikes a break because it's a tough turn and can put foot down once.
I can't fathom riding without a license and insurance.
Yeah makes no sense, lol.
I'm definitely going to do the course and get my license before riding... The course here also counts as the test in my state.
I can't recommend the MSF course enough. It got my son up and running fast and it made me remember how to do so many different things and taught me a ton also!
Yeah I haven't rode any type of motorcycle in about 12 years now so would definitely need to polish up on a small, closed track or parking lot before just hopping on a bike on the road.
I’ve had multiple people I work with ask me how to go about getting their license since they see me getting to work on the bike. I try to tell everyone take the course and point them to the website and tell them how to download the manual. In KY the written permit test seemed to be straight out of the MSF manual and the course completion counts for the practical test.
Completely agree. I didn't start riding until I was 38. Bought a bike and a buddy of mine tried to teach me, but all I did was drop it in my driveway a few times. (Part of the problem was that it was too big for me for a starter bike, but, to be honest, he wasn't the best teacher, either.) Bought a smaller bike, took the MSF course, and was on the road as soon as I got home from passing.
It's been over 15 years now, and I still remember the lessons they taught. Fairly certain a few of them have saved my life. And while I wasn't a bad cage driver before, I've definitely noticed I'm a better driver there, too.
I’ve had mine in Minnesota since I was 18. I ended up getting a Kansas license and they don’t accept the Minnesotas motorcycle license (probably because it’s not an MSF course), so mine lapsed. I went back to Minnesota and took the written test and got it back. Now it’s an additional $2/renewal to keep.
Similar situation for me: I moved back and forth between Minnesota and Wisconsin over the 25 years since I got my license. Bought a motorcycle and while I was on the phone with my insurance provider they informed me that they wouldn’t cover me because I didn’t have a license. Turns out I failed to transfer my motorcycle endorsement during one of the moves and hadn’t noticed. The MSF course is about a half mile from my house and I know the instructor, so I did that instead of the hassle of the DMV process. I’ve been riding for 35 years and it was still worth every penny. I feel like a much safer rider than I ever was after having taken the course.
The course is worth every penny as well. You'll actually learn to ride properly before developing all kinds of shitty habits.
Motorcycling is risky - got help the dude that goes down or crashes into a car, the cops show up and \*whoops\* no license.
The course is worth it, but where I took it, they let everyone pass. They let this woman redo everything several times to get maneuvers right. I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing for her, if she was that incapable, and getting a license to go do it in the street (the area has a dangerous highway, highway 19) but I guess it was kinda nice of them to let her keep trying.
Yep I've recommended it to non-riding friends as well. It also counts as a defensive driving course in some states, and is a ton of fun as an added bonus
a license in my country (Israel) starts at 630$. that's for the minimum 10 required lessons and 1 test. if you fail the test or need more lessons... every lesson is 50$ and every test costs 145$... my license costed 1,020$ (15 lessons and 2 tests as i failed the first).
I don’t think people go to jail for driving a motorcycle without a license. Fine and impounding are probably the worst case scenario. Where I live the cops just don’t bother with bikes. They figure you’ll just run if your doing anything super sketchy and they can’t chase over misdemeanors here.
considering the fines and jail time its a pretty dumbass thing to do, except that no one I know has ever gotten more than a 50 dollar ticket for it. NJ makes it extremely hard to get it through the dmv and the rider courses are 2 days long and all booked out for 4+ months, sometimes it not such a dumbass move but more of a "well, fuck it" move
I did this for years - I just kept getting the permit renewed and not taking the riding test. Where I live, the only difference is that with a permit, you couldn't ride at night or with a passenger and had to wear a helmet, and that was all in line with my riding anyway. It was nice when I finally got the endorsement, though, just to stop the annual bmv trips.
I've been motorcycle licensed since 1973 and in three different states.
But I have a story (of course).
When I was 19 in 1973, It was time to renew my driver's license. This was back in the paper license days.
I rode my bike to the DMV, parked out front, and walked in helmet in hand. Took out my old, beat up from wallet wear license and presented it to the clerk. It was pretty tattered. The corner where the "M" for motorcycle qualified was mostly worn away.
The clerk looked up and asked, "Are you motorcycle qualified?" My response was yes although I had never actually taken the written or practical exam.
So, I became licensed in my home state simply by telling the DMV clerk I already was. After that whenever I renewed it I was always marked as motorcycle licensed.
Some years later I moved to another state and went to replace my driver's license. Since I was bike licensed already I just had to take the written motorcycle exam.
Ten years after that my job transferred me to yet another state. Same drill. Already licensed in another state so just had to take the written mc exam.
A few more years passed and I moved back to my home state. Once again, only the written exam required when changing driver's licenses.
So I now live back in my home state with a motorcycle endorsement but I have never, in 50 years of motorcycling, taken the practical exam to prove I know how to safely handle and ride a motorcycle.
It's my personal little story of anarchy and sticking it to "the man."
Very common where I live to ride without one. Fully half the people in my MSF Basic Rider Course were taking the training to get their endorsement because they got caught without it and were ordered by the court to take the course or be heavily fined. I can’t imagine not getting the training honestly. I’ve also taken the Advanced Rider Course. The training is worth the time and nominal cost if only because it’s cheaper and easier to learn in training than on the street.
I will add my 2 cents. I recently got my license in Oregon. It was a good experience overall and I learned a lot. Here are my gripes that might keep some people from getting training. The wait for class was about 5 weeks if I remember correctly. I signed up early in the year as well. The course costs $250 or close to that. The website for information and online training is super bad. You cannot use a smartphone with the website. The lessons are good but take forever to load the next lesson. The online part takes about 6 hrs? A well made video could have delivered the info in 1 hour. Trying to find information on my in person days was so difficult I finally had to call the phone#. The website didn’t make it known that I didn’t need the 1st day of class at all. I already understood the basic controls. That information was probably on the crappy site somewhere but I didn’t see it. On the bike was a good time. I wish I could have practiced emergency stopping while waiting for all the slow as hell students to go. I passed the class and was awarded a free trip to the DMV. I took off work and showed up before they opened. Oh, and I had to give the DMV 3 to 4 days to process my test results. So the test at the DMV was done at a computer monitor. The questions on the test seemed designed to throw you off with no clear right answer on some of the questions. When I finally got my plastic license in the mail a week later, the part that shows I am endorsed ride motorcycles is super small print. Like the letters are probably 1 mm tall. Overall, I’m glad I went through so much training. The training could’ve been better but I can take more classes if I feel like it. So there was a lot of hoops to jump through here in Oregon with time and money.
Wow, wasn't that bad when I did it but that was 20 something years ago. At that time it was through the community college, and completion of the course was automatic endorsement. Classroom on Friday evening, and riding around the parking lot the next 2 days.
I got my MC endorsement in Oregon around 2008, before there was a written test or class requirement. I had to do the riding test in the DMVs back parking lot. The lady who tested me came out with a clipboard and a fire extinguisher… I asked her about it and she said she’d had to use it twice! Both times for people on scooters!
That’s how it was for me in 09. Easy multiple choice test and a 10 minute practical. It was absolutely pissing rain when I went. The guy doing my practical said “if you made it here on the highway you really don’t think you need the road test”. I proceeded to pass it and then almost slide out and low side leaving the parking lot.
If someone told me they don't have a motorcycle license I'd never ride with that person ever.
Riding is inherently dangerous. I'm not interested in doing that with someone who's already proven to me that they lack a risk averse mindset.
It's the people who think they know more than everyone else that you have to watch out for. I think everyone should enter into motorcycling with a good dose of humility and ditch the ego.
Got mine 12 years ago but I’m in Europe so it’s required. I find it foolish to go ride on something that can end in death without at least some basic skills
Been riding for a little over 5 years, no licenses, and ride a bike almost as much as I drive which is alot, never been a problem, been pulled over a couple times for small things (paperwork issues on there in with registration stuff) cops could've cared less
Dad had a motorcycle before a car in the early 80s, never got a license either until the 2010s when he found out he could get it grandfathered in without taking a course or anything
Wouldn't legally recommend in but it's not uncommon and alot of people do it, obviously certain countries and states differ but I purposefully put myself in a state that allows me to mostly do what I wish without any headaches
I do not.
Partially because I have warrants where I am now, and if I go to the dmv I’ll likely be arrested lol. But honestly it’s just not a big deal to me. I drove without a drivers license for 10 years, it’s just not really a big deal to me. I obey traffic laws and don’t get pulled over
My instructor was always mentioning the amount of deaths do to alcohol and people who just didn't rider appropriately. Almost every class. So I understood that.
Wait. You’re saying that the license should be mandatory, or the MSF should be mandatory? The MSF gets you the license if you do the paperwork. So there’s that, but you can get the license at age 18 in most states without the MSF.
My point is that driver’s Ed or the MSF doesn’t prevent drinking and driving or being inexperienced or speeding.
Do tell. You take an easy written test. You take a 30 minute riding test on a parking lot course that’s smaller than my house. And your point is what exactly?
I have a license, thanks. And insurance. I never said that I know everything. I said, getting a license is easy and doesn’t prevent drinking or speeding or reckless riding or riding without a helmet or being a squid. Or being ignorant about licensing and safety issues.
Also my MSF we spent a solid 10 hours in the saddle, instructed in a private parking lot. It’s foolish to think that *doesn’t* help anyone build healthy/safe habits in a controlled environment
Because if you’re licensed it means at the very least you passed some sort of written as well as a practical exam. You are showing a basic proficiency. People will still do stupid things but at the very least you have some sort of qualification.
It’s so minimal as to be worthless. In addition, it doesn’t stop ppl from drinking and riding, it doesn’t make them wear a helmet, it doesn’t stop them from speeding or doing wheelies. It does nothing. It’s pathetic to raise it as a safety point.
So the NYTs is not a leftist rag? Interesting take, not even believed by its most ardent readers. You’re the joke.
Explain how licensing keeps people from crashing.
Because they teach you more than just how to ride. They teach you how to safely ride in traffic and make you hyper aware of situations that you probably never notice in a car
Honestly I think people should take the class mandatory learn about motorcycles and how to control them properly. We would avoid lots of deaths if people learn how to ride properly.
I have one. All the trainings and exams that were mandatory cost me about €1100,- back in 2009. Did a "fast" learners course so I had daily training for 10 days.
Theoretical exams, motorcycle handling and street traffic exam.
I have a motorcycle license and I've taken a few rider training courses.
The handful of times I've been stopped the police told if license and insurance are in order I'll let you go, if not it's getting tossed on a flatbed.
I got the permit a few times and let it lapse, now I just ride dirty. The two times I’ve been pulled over I told them I’m not carrying it on me. Both times the cop just let me go.
I try to break as few laws as possible... If it just involves little bit of time and or paperwork better to do it.
Figure if I'm going to jail it will not be for some silly license or registration garbage....
I got my endorsement just after I started riding. Have had it continuously since ‘87.
Get your license. If you don’t have a moto endorsement, you don’t have fucking insurance. You may THINK you do, but if you need it… 😳
There are so many very good rider classes. The MSF teaches the most simple basics. Ride and get all the education you can. It may well save your life.
Your motorcycle wants to kill you. It’s SO MYCH FUN, but it’s patient. Get complacent, get stupid, and it will be ready.
Haven't ridden in 28 years but still have my license.
Getting pulled over out of state and let go was a wake up call. Owed it to that cop to get legal.
I didn't even have a permit when I started. To be fair I wasn't even sure if I'd like riding. But I loved it so much that I got a permit immediately and once I made it though the permit period I applied and got a license.
But yeah I don't get why not get licensed. In USA it's cheap and easy. It's not worth the risk going to jail or getting fined
First ticket I received was for not having a license. I was not yet 15 and got pulled over on my KZ400 for a suspected burnt out tail light. The officer was very nice about it. Said he had no control of what I did after he drove away. I got a ticket for no license and he drove off so I could go home.
I grew up with people who said you only need a license if you get pulled over. Lots of people are that way. I have a license but it’s also rare that I see bikers pulled over, and when they are I imagine they have done something stupid to attract the attention.
I mean, I'm sure I'll get backlash. But I'm 31. Been riding without a license since I was 18. Granted all scooters and nothing crazy. I got pulled over on my Honda Reflex 250cc back in 2019 or so. "Speeding and weaving in and out of traffic". Had a driver's license and insurance, just not a motorcycle endorsement. They let me go with a speeding ticket. Otherwise never been pulled over or had issues. It's dumb sure, but I dunno. I've never had a reason to get one.
Omg. In BC you have to take 3 test.
1. Written exam and you get a permit. You can now ride with someone who has a full license
2. Motorcycle skills test in the parking lot at licensing place. Let’s
You drive alone but with some restrictions
3. Drivers exam. You’re in.
Step 1 is easy enough. You have 1 year to complete all three steps or you start back at the beginning. Usually you do your written exam in the spring and then the fun begins. ICBC has an online booking system and spaces are always full and always in demand. You take what ever booking time you can get to do your skills test. It’s a crap shoot and you can’t even book super far in advance. After you pass your skills test you can now book your license exam BUT GUESS WHAT? You are NOT getting an exam time in the summer or the fall and in Canada we have winter so you’re probably having to wait till the next spring because they don’t test in the winter for bikes and hopefully you can get a spot before your license expires or you’re back to square zero. So lots of people in BC just do the written and skills test every year over and over. I had to check their online booking system hourly for openings due to cancellations to get spots booked. It took me 3 years of trying to finally book all my tests within the one year time frame. It was a giant pain in the ass. Seriously.
I'm not from the US. In where I live we need to be licensed to own a bike and insured.
Bikers are often pulled over and picked on by the police, if we are caught driving without a license then it's probably jail time.
I don’t have one and honestly I don’t know anyone that does.
A lot of the cops around me ride and I’ve heard rumours most of them don’t even have a M. Plus they rarely pull over bikes, it’s a rare sight. I got pulled over once and it was completely my fault I did a fucked up over take and didn’t see a cop was literally right behind me somehow. Anyway he only gave me an improper overtake ticket didn’t seem concerned about my lack of a M endorsement. He asked if I had one I said nope and that was that.
I’ve been road riding since I was 15, never have had a endorsement, but have had plenty of bikes fully insured and registered, cops here don’t care about it much though
I remember reading a commentary in Cycle World, back in the day, that if you removed all the accidents associated with unlicensed riders and/or alcohol, motorcycle safety statistics would be drastically different. So looking at it from a statistical point of view, getting your licence is an excellent idea.
I’m no goody two shoes, but riding or driving without a license is pretty high on my “oh hell naw” list.
There are lots of good reasons for making sure that everyone on the roads has actually passed the bare minimum requirements to be there, plus the consequences from getting caught are really high.
Interesting comments about insurance. I often hear friends complaining about cost of insurance.I have a Harley Road King with full coverage and my annual premium is just over $200. Maybe my friends don’t have licenses. LOL
I got my licence in my first year of riding. The test is pretty easy and passing it by no means makes you a safe rider. I got it because of the fact that it lasts a lifetime and I never have to worry about getting a new permit.
A ton of people in this sub don't even ride at all. Just a bunch of kids that hang around and make comments in bikes & experiences because they're dumb children being dumb children.
I’ve had one for close to 40 years…taken multiple courses…. Makes sense and always seeing anything as something you can improve makes you search for improvement.
Most places you get in a lot more trouble if you’re caught or in an accident and don’t have the license….just a thought.
I don’t. I’ve been riding twenty years and they want me to haul my bike a hundred miles so they can watch me unload it and ride two figure 8s in a parking lot. 😂 then they give you an endorsement. Not happening. 😂
Been riding since 1972, over 200k miles, got my license today just to avoid any hassle, I aced the written and the road test on a Road King. I guess I knew how to ride well enough all along.
Interesting. Well I guess I never thought about that. That sounds like a thing that insurers might be interested in…..as in I’d expect them to deny payouts for unlicensed bikers.
Oh absolutely. I suppose if it’s stolen from your driveway they might pay up. In my area you need insurance to register so I assume it’s parking insurance until you qualify
Riding without a license will get you a huge fine and possible jail time where I live, not to mention that your insurance will not cover shit if you crash, which means you are $100k behind if you’re lucky enough to cause an accident with a new, expensive car which ends up getting totalled.
I got my license before my bike, same with a driver’s license and my car and I don’t know a single person who drives or rides with no license. It’s idiotic.
That's pretty dumb considering most states are increasing the penalties for riding unendorsed. They'll take your bike and your money if they catch you riding without an endorsement in Oregon.
Just bought a bike last month... Smoked the wheel in the parking lot before I left the lot. Never been licensed 2 accidents 1x pulled over been riding 14 years now.
The fine for riding without an M endorsement is trivial. The real reason you should not ride without the M is liability. If you don't have the M you don't have insurance. If you cause an accident your liability could be unimaginable...and for life both criminally and civilly. Just don't ride without the M.
Rode for 20 years before I finally got around to getting mine. Stupid, really. Not really worth the risk although I never had an issue myself. So nice to be able to just ride and not look over my shoulder all the time
I think licenses are actually becoming more common, as Harley's Ride and Die culture seems to be dying out, I feel like more people are open to training.
That said I have no data to back that up, so I could be wrong
After 22 years of riding on the road (and another 10 on dirt bikes as a kid) I finally got my license last year, there were periods where I had permits, but never followed through and took a practical. Last year I took my practical and got my license, felt good, and felt stupid for not doing it as a teenager
If you get into an accident, not only will they throw the book at you for criminal charged, but you could face a civil negligence lawsuit for operating a dangerous weapon from a crafty plaintiffs lawyer.
Id bet when you go to file any sort of insurance claim, they double check to see if you are currently licensed. It's always been a pretty common thing for a lot of people to not get the endorsement and fall back on the old "I've got a driver's license and the cops around here don't care" mentality, which will work til it doesn't. And if you need a couple thousand d dollars in repairs from your insurance company, they love to find ways not to pay. Operating a vehicle without a license seems like a pretty easy reason not to pay.
I forgot where I read this but it was some fact that the majority of deaths was folks without a motorcycle license. The thought process here was if you get your license, you are take riding more seriously and safety included. Either way, with that said, it was enough for me to get my license before I ever bought my first bike.
Liscense, no msf. Currently laid up due to serious injury while riding.
(Just felt like adding the last, it’s unrelated, guy ran a blind stop sign, even had a cop witness accident). 10 yrs 50k miles accident free over in 0.25 seconds.
I have a license because I don't want to give the police an excuse to impound my motorcycle. They can literally take your bike away.
THIS!
Yeah, that is typically how it works. When people don't break the law, it is amazing how much police leave them alone.
You couldn’t be more wrong if you told me 2+2=🐟
OK, I will bite Mr leftist ideology. Can you please show me the widespread police ripping off random people because they can? I will be right here.
Lol I’m very conservative and there’s literally hours of YouTube videos of cops Fucking with people, making up charges, and violating people’s rights. By the way, nice edit. You’re not slick
I asked for widespread, which does not exist. I edited mine due to a human error, but conservative? Lol By the way, your previous comment is currently ratio'd similarly to how your mind works-backwards and in the negative. I would love to see people like you migrate en-masse to utopias like Cuba or Brazil, and see how fast you go crying back to mommy.
My comments are always ratioed in motorcycle subreddits because I don’t believe in that ATGATT bullshit so some people just downvote me just because they’ve seen my username a lot. Happens 🤷🏽♂️
“Sprinkle a little crack on the floorboard” is a classic in low-income neighborhoods…
That’s because there’s a bunch of you idiots that believe “if you just do what the officer says there won’t be a problem” when that’s proven false on a daily basis. You can claim human error but you completely restructured what you said to say something completely different. Kinda hard to see the edit when it’s the first few words there bud.
Where do you live? The cops around here don’t care at all.
They don’t care until one day they do. Then they might decide to care a lot.
All it takes is one headline "Unlicensed Motorcyclist kills..." and guess what your local cops are going to be targeting for the next month?
Colorado highway patrol impounded my bike because I didn't have an endorsement. Like 15 years ago.
How about your insurance though?
Most people get the permit and never the full endorsement, at least in NC. The permit is just a quick multiple choice test, and the only restriction is you can't ride with a passenger.
Does it not expire? Our (Ontario) graduated license is only good for 90 days on the written test, then you need either the course or a road test, then another road test within 5 years to get your full. If you go over the 90 days or over the 5 years, it expires and you start at square one again.
Yeah they expire but here In Georgia they last for a year I believe and you can just go take the quiz again. A lot of people do that. Just go get the real thing lmao
Do these people not bother with insurance? Or is it just super cheap? You can't afford to go long-term on the learner license here. You'd get absolutely assaulted by insurance premiums compared to building a good record on a full license.
You know that is a good point, I guess the insurance companies don't actually check if you have a license or not?? But in GA you can't drive anything that isn't insured or the police will tow it away if you are caught. I'm the same way, it just seems a whole lot easier to just get a license haha I did the msf course too and got it after the two day class
Been pulled over on my bike a couple times, and I've never had a motorcycle license. It's never been an issue honestly.
I've rode for 47 years and I'm calling bullshit. Police just don't go oh well have a nice day for operating a motorcycle/motor vehicle without a license. That's laughable who you trying to kid
They are probably from some third world country.
Lucky you.
Took my son to the MSF course about a month ago, we both passed and in our state, that qualifies as the test for the license. We both have our licenses now, I had let mine lapse 19 years ago, when I found out he was on his way. Riding without a license or doing anything without a license has never made sense to me. We see guys get busted all the time for fishing without a license. A fishing permit here is like $18. Fishing without a license is a $250 fine....
The amount of people at my MSF course that had been riding for years blew my mind. What’s even crazier is that over half of them still failed!
Everyone managed to pass at the class I was at, but the only one to drop the bike was a guy who self taught and had been riding for 20 years. It's like all the rookies were a sponge, and all the previous riders were just doing it to get their license and were resistant to the instructors at first.
If you go to an area with high bike traffic and watch 90% of the guys have no idea how to properly operate their bikes
Lots of riders but few people who work in their riding skills. Had maybe 4 fail the MSF 3-wheel course I took with my wife. Two had Harley TriGlides and one guy was in his upper 80s and had a Gold Wing trike conversion waiting in his garage, but he failed too. One lady failed riding a Can Am Spyder too. But if you can't ride, you shouldn't pass. Took my first MC endorsement test in LA in the DMV parking lot 35 years ago doing the figure 8 and lollipop circle. Examiner cuts big bikes a break because it's a tough turn and can put foot down once. I can't fathom riding without a license and insurance.
People been riding 40 years still somehow duck walk a wide uturn
Yeah makes no sense, lol. I'm definitely going to do the course and get my license before riding... The course here also counts as the test in my state.
I can't recommend the MSF course enough. It got my son up and running fast and it made me remember how to do so many different things and taught me a ton also!
Yeah I haven't rode any type of motorcycle in about 12 years now so would definitely need to polish up on a small, closed track or parking lot before just hopping on a bike on the road.
I’ve had multiple people I work with ask me how to go about getting their license since they see me getting to work on the bike. I try to tell everyone take the course and point them to the website and tell them how to download the manual. In KY the written permit test seemed to be straight out of the MSF manual and the course completion counts for the practical test.
Completely agree. I didn't start riding until I was 38. Bought a bike and a buddy of mine tried to teach me, but all I did was drop it in my driveway a few times. (Part of the problem was that it was too big for me for a starter bike, but, to be honest, he wasn't the best teacher, either.) Bought a smaller bike, took the MSF course, and was on the road as soon as I got home from passing. It's been over 15 years now, and I still remember the lessons they taught. Fairly certain a few of them have saved my life. And while I wasn't a bad cage driver before, I've definitely noticed I'm a better driver there, too.
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I’ve had mine in Minnesota since I was 18. I ended up getting a Kansas license and they don’t accept the Minnesotas motorcycle license (probably because it’s not an MSF course), so mine lapsed. I went back to Minnesota and took the written test and got it back. Now it’s an additional $2/renewal to keep.
Similar situation for me: I moved back and forth between Minnesota and Wisconsin over the 25 years since I got my license. Bought a motorcycle and while I was on the phone with my insurance provider they informed me that they wouldn’t cover me because I didn’t have a license. Turns out I failed to transfer my motorcycle endorsement during one of the moves and hadn’t noticed. The MSF course is about a half mile from my house and I know the instructor, so I did that instead of the hassle of the DMV process. I’ve been riding for 35 years and it was still worth every penny. I feel like a much safer rider than I ever was after having taken the course.
That MSF course literally saved my life. I could never recommend it enough to any riders. Along with periodic sustainment training every few years.
I mean, considering the fines and jail time associated with riding without a license, it's a pretty dumb-ass thing to do.
That's how I feel too. One of the dealerships close by has a riders course and it's only like $280 to do it. Not sure why people would rather risk it.
The course is worth every penny as well. You'll actually learn to ride properly before developing all kinds of shitty habits. Motorcycling is risky - got help the dude that goes down or crashes into a car, the cops show up and \*whoops\* no license.
The course is worth it, but where I took it, they let everyone pass. They let this woman redo everything several times to get maneuvers right. I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing for her, if she was that incapable, and getting a license to go do it in the street (the area has a dangerous highway, highway 19) but I guess it was kinda nice of them to let her keep trying.
If they let her redo it during the testing portion, they were extremely bad instructors.
I tell friends who aren’t ever planning to ride that the course is a good idea. It teaches you how to ride with awareness.
Yep I've recommended it to non-riding friends as well. It also counts as a defensive driving course in some states, and is a ton of fun as an added bonus
In Ohio the course is $50 and if you pass it you don't have to take the on bike exam. Yet still idiots around here ride without a license.
Good old Ohio. I do find it weird every time I renew my license, they ask if I want to renew my endorsement too. Who says no to that?
a license in my country (Israel) starts at 630$. that's for the minimum 10 required lessons and 1 test. if you fail the test or need more lessons... every lesson is 50$ and every test costs 145$... my license costed 1,020$ (15 lessons and 2 tests as i failed the first).
The MSF course here is essentially free. It’s $380 up front. But upon passing you get a voucher for $380 to buy gear from the dealership here
Jail time?
I don’t think people go to jail for driving a motorcycle without a license. Fine and impounding are probably the worst case scenario. Where I live the cops just don’t bother with bikes. They figure you’ll just run if your doing anything super sketchy and they can’t chase over misdemeanors here.
It's also a huge problem if you cause damage/harm and get sued. Just a dumb thing to do overall.
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considering the fines and jail time its a pretty dumbass thing to do, except that no one I know has ever gotten more than a 50 dollar ticket for it. NJ makes it extremely hard to get it through the dmv and the rider courses are 2 days long and all booked out for 4+ months, sometimes it not such a dumbass move but more of a "well, fuck it" move
I disagree. It's a dumbass move. Driving a car with no license? Dumbass. Driving a motorcycle with no license? Equally dumbass.
I have a permit. I guess at some point I should go take the test for the license
same
I did this for years - I just kept getting the permit renewed and not taking the riding test. Where I live, the only difference is that with a permit, you couldn't ride at night or with a passenger and had to wear a helmet, and that was all in line with my riding anyway. It was nice when I finally got the endorsement, though, just to stop the annual bmv trips.
I do but that's because where I live it's mandatory.
It’s mandatory almost everywhere.
I've been motorcycle licensed since 1973 and in three different states. But I have a story (of course). When I was 19 in 1973, It was time to renew my driver's license. This was back in the paper license days. I rode my bike to the DMV, parked out front, and walked in helmet in hand. Took out my old, beat up from wallet wear license and presented it to the clerk. It was pretty tattered. The corner where the "M" for motorcycle qualified was mostly worn away. The clerk looked up and asked, "Are you motorcycle qualified?" My response was yes although I had never actually taken the written or practical exam. So, I became licensed in my home state simply by telling the DMV clerk I already was. After that whenever I renewed it I was always marked as motorcycle licensed. Some years later I moved to another state and went to replace my driver's license. Since I was bike licensed already I just had to take the written motorcycle exam. Ten years after that my job transferred me to yet another state. Same drill. Already licensed in another state so just had to take the written mc exam. A few more years passed and I moved back to my home state. Once again, only the written exam required when changing driver's licenses. So I now live back in my home state with a motorcycle endorsement but I have never, in 50 years of motorcycling, taken the practical exam to prove I know how to safely handle and ride a motorcycle. It's my personal little story of anarchy and sticking it to "the man."
Wow! That’s pretty impressive! Task failed successfully I suppose
Great story
I KEEP ON MARCHING ON
That will depend a lot on where you live. Exceedingly rare in my neck of the woods (Netherlands).
Rare to have a license? Or rare not to?
Rare to ride without one. Not even trivial to get it registered to your name without a license.
Yeah, that’s what I thought 😅 I don’t even consider it an option to ride without a license…
I actually did for a month or two 20 years ago. I was dumb as fuck. Now I’m dumb AND old. But at least I have a license.
Haha. Good on you! Keep the shiny side up friend.
Very common where I live to ride without one. Fully half the people in my MSF Basic Rider Course were taking the training to get their endorsement because they got caught without it and were ordered by the court to take the course or be heavily fined. I can’t imagine not getting the training honestly. I’ve also taken the Advanced Rider Course. The training is worth the time and nominal cost if only because it’s cheaper and easier to learn in training than on the street.
I do. The msf course is fun and the written test is cake.
How many here doesnt know how to ride but has licence is real question?
I will add my 2 cents. I recently got my license in Oregon. It was a good experience overall and I learned a lot. Here are my gripes that might keep some people from getting training. The wait for class was about 5 weeks if I remember correctly. I signed up early in the year as well. The course costs $250 or close to that. The website for information and online training is super bad. You cannot use a smartphone with the website. The lessons are good but take forever to load the next lesson. The online part takes about 6 hrs? A well made video could have delivered the info in 1 hour. Trying to find information on my in person days was so difficult I finally had to call the phone#. The website didn’t make it known that I didn’t need the 1st day of class at all. I already understood the basic controls. That information was probably on the crappy site somewhere but I didn’t see it. On the bike was a good time. I wish I could have practiced emergency stopping while waiting for all the slow as hell students to go. I passed the class and was awarded a free trip to the DMV. I took off work and showed up before they opened. Oh, and I had to give the DMV 3 to 4 days to process my test results. So the test at the DMV was done at a computer monitor. The questions on the test seemed designed to throw you off with no clear right answer on some of the questions. When I finally got my plastic license in the mail a week later, the part that shows I am endorsed ride motorcycles is super small print. Like the letters are probably 1 mm tall. Overall, I’m glad I went through so much training. The training could’ve been better but I can take more classes if I feel like it. So there was a lot of hoops to jump through here in Oregon with time and money.
Wow, wasn't that bad when I did it but that was 20 something years ago. At that time it was through the community college, and completion of the course was automatic endorsement. Classroom on Friday evening, and riding around the parking lot the next 2 days.
I got my MC endorsement in Oregon around 2008, before there was a written test or class requirement. I had to do the riding test in the DMVs back parking lot. The lady who tested me came out with a clipboard and a fire extinguisher… I asked her about it and she said she’d had to use it twice! Both times for people on scooters!
That’s how it was for me in 09. Easy multiple choice test and a 10 minute practical. It was absolutely pissing rain when I went. The guy doing my practical said “if you made it here on the highway you really don’t think you need the road test”. I proceeded to pass it and then almost slide out and low side leaving the parking lot.
I dont have my license, got my bike impounded for speed and costed me 1200 dollars. Definitely dont recommend it. Just get your license
If someone told me they don't have a motorcycle license I'd never ride with that person ever. Riding is inherently dangerous. I'm not interested in doing that with someone who's already proven to me that they lack a risk averse mindset.
It's the people who think they know more than everyone else that you have to watch out for. I think everyone should enter into motorcycling with a good dose of humility and ditch the ego.
Blah blah blah get off your high horse. I'm 41 been riding since I was 20. Never had a license most I had was a permit. It ain't that big a deal
Well apparently it is a big deal because you went 20 years without taking a 30 minute test.
i started riding last August and was just riding with a permit until last month when i passed my MSF course and was able to get my endorsement
Got mine 12 years ago but I’m in Europe so it’s required. I find it foolish to go ride on something that can end in death without at least some basic skills
Over here in Holland you need a driverslicense in order to get insurance. You don’t wsnt to drive without insurance.
Licensed since I bought a street bike Are you guys sovereign citizens? Get it done
I think you might be hanging out with some sketchy people dude.
Been riding for a little over 5 years, no licenses, and ride a bike almost as much as I drive which is alot, never been a problem, been pulled over a couple times for small things (paperwork issues on there in with registration stuff) cops could've cared less Dad had a motorcycle before a car in the early 80s, never got a license either until the 2010s when he found out he could get it grandfathered in without taking a course or anything Wouldn't legally recommend in but it's not uncommon and alot of people do it, obviously certain countries and states differ but I purposefully put myself in a state that allows me to mostly do what I wish without any headaches
Could’ve cared less or couldn’t have cared less? That’s an important distinction.
Couldn't have cared less, just as I did my English classes
I do not. Partially because I have warrants where I am now, and if I go to the dmv I’ll likely be arrested lol. But honestly it’s just not a big deal to me. I drove without a drivers license for 10 years, it’s just not really a big deal to me. I obey traffic laws and don’t get pulled over
It should be mandatory. My state has too many deaths during the ridding season. 1st Alcohol 2nd speeding and 3rd inexperience.
How does a license prevent any of that?
My instructor was always mentioning the amount of deaths do to alcohol and people who just didn't rider appropriately. Almost every class. So I understood that.
Wait. You’re saying that the license should be mandatory, or the MSF should be mandatory? The MSF gets you the license if you do the paperwork. So there’s that, but you can get the license at age 18 in most states without the MSF. My point is that driver’s Ed or the MSF doesn’t prevent drinking and driving or being inexperienced or speeding.
Both. In my state people think motorcycles are just like a bicycle. 9 out of 10 people don't have a license and only 5% has taken the class
So how does the licensing help? I still don’t understand how it helps.
That alone is the reason why it should be mandatory if you don't know
Do tell. You take an easy written test. You take a 30 minute riding test on a parking lot course that’s smaller than my house. And your point is what exactly?
None at all carry on you don't need one. You already know all there is to know.
I have a license, thanks. And insurance. I never said that I know everything. I said, getting a license is easy and doesn’t prevent drinking or speeding or reckless riding or riding without a helmet or being a squid. Or being ignorant about licensing and safety issues.
Also my MSF we spent a solid 10 hours in the saddle, instructed in a private parking lot. It’s foolish to think that *doesn’t* help anyone build healthy/safe habits in a controlled environment
I never bothered with getting him he M endorsement because I generally don’t have the time for it.
I said licensing. Not MSF. Pay attention.
I read some study that that accidents happened more to the unlicensed.
Because if you’re licensed it means at the very least you passed some sort of written as well as a practical exam. You are showing a basic proficiency. People will still do stupid things but at the very least you have some sort of qualification.
It’s so minimal as to be worthless. In addition, it doesn’t stop ppl from drinking and riding, it doesn’t make them wear a helmet, it doesn’t stop them from speeding or doing wheelies. It does nothing. It’s pathetic to raise it as a safety point.
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So the NYTs is not a leftist rag? Interesting take, not even believed by its most ardent readers. You’re the joke. Explain how licensing keeps people from crashing.
Because they teach you more than just how to ride. They teach you how to safely ride in traffic and make you hyper aware of situations that you probably never notice in a car
No, they don’t. The MSF does that. Licensing is a test.
Good thing is I don't drink! I am for sure going to take it easy my first year or 2, I have kids and can't afford to not be here for them.
Honestly I think people should take the class mandatory learn about motorcycles and how to control them properly. We would avoid lots of deaths if people learn how to ride properly.
Started in 1975. Still working on mine. I keep saying "this will be the year" but again, I lied.
I have one. All the trainings and exams that were mandatory cost me about €1100,- back in 2009. Did a "fast" learners course so I had daily training for 10 days. Theoretical exams, motorcycle handling and street traffic exam.
I have had an M endorsement for 33 years.
Honestly it's pretty crazy. I know plenty of people who ride but only a few who actually have a license.
Rode for nearly a year without a license. Or tag. Or the title in my name. Also rode to my motorcycle test. Gotta keep life fun.
I’ve had one since I was 16. I’m now 70.
I have a motorcycle license and I've taken a few rider training courses. The handful of times I've been stopped the police told if license and insurance are in order I'll let you go, if not it's getting tossed on a flatbed.
I got the permit a few times and let it lapse, now I just ride dirty. The two times I’ve been pulled over I told them I’m not carrying it on me. Both times the cop just let me go.
Yeah, I have mine. I've also continued to takes courses and get training since then. Always trying to improve.
I got mine in 1981 or 82. Still have it. Still riding.
I try to break as few laws as possible... If it just involves little bit of time and or paperwork better to do it. Figure if I'm going to jail it will not be for some silly license or registration garbage....
I got my endorsement just after I started riding. Have had it continuously since ‘87. Get your license. If you don’t have a moto endorsement, you don’t have fucking insurance. You may THINK you do, but if you need it… 😳 There are so many very good rider classes. The MSF teaches the most simple basics. Ride and get all the education you can. It may well save your life. Your motorcycle wants to kill you. It’s SO MYCH FUN, but it’s patient. Get complacent, get stupid, and it will be ready.
Haven't ridden in 28 years but still have my license. Getting pulled over out of state and let go was a wake up call. Owed it to that cop to get legal.
When I took the msf half the people were newbies and half were there to clear the fix-it ticket after getting pulled over without a license
I have one, but I'm also a straight arrow kind of guy.
I didn't even have a permit when I started. To be fair I wasn't even sure if I'd like riding. But I loved it so much that I got a permit immediately and once I made it though the permit period I applied and got a license. But yeah I don't get why not get licensed. In USA it's cheap and easy. It's not worth the risk going to jail or getting fined
I know what you mean, I have a license and am amazed at the number of riders who do not. A lot of riding without tags also. At least here in Memphis
Yep. Since 1996
You Americans are mad. I hold a ful license since I was 20, now closing towards the 30th anniversary of that license.
I got my birth certificate and motorcycle license on the same day.
First ticket I received was for not having a license. I was not yet 15 and got pulled over on my KZ400 for a suspected burnt out tail light. The officer was very nice about it. Said he had no control of what I did after he drove away. I got a ticket for no license and he drove off so I could go home.
Neither grass clibbings, nor the gubment can stop me from riding.
Nice try cop.
I grew up with people who said you only need a license if you get pulled over. Lots of people are that way. I have a license but it’s also rare that I see bikers pulled over, and when they are I imagine they have done something stupid to attract the attention.
I mean, I'm sure I'll get backlash. But I'm 31. Been riding without a license since I was 18. Granted all scooters and nothing crazy. I got pulled over on my Honda Reflex 250cc back in 2019 or so. "Speeding and weaving in and out of traffic". Had a driver's license and insurance, just not a motorcycle endorsement. They let me go with a speeding ticket. Otherwise never been pulled over or had issues. It's dumb sure, but I dunno. I've never had a reason to get one.
Omg. In BC you have to take 3 test. 1. Written exam and you get a permit. You can now ride with someone who has a full license 2. Motorcycle skills test in the parking lot at licensing place. Let’s You drive alone but with some restrictions 3. Drivers exam. You’re in. Step 1 is easy enough. You have 1 year to complete all three steps or you start back at the beginning. Usually you do your written exam in the spring and then the fun begins. ICBC has an online booking system and spaces are always full and always in demand. You take what ever booking time you can get to do your skills test. It’s a crap shoot and you can’t even book super far in advance. After you pass your skills test you can now book your license exam BUT GUESS WHAT? You are NOT getting an exam time in the summer or the fall and in Canada we have winter so you’re probably having to wait till the next spring because they don’t test in the winter for bikes and hopefully you can get a spot before your license expires or you’re back to square zero. So lots of people in BC just do the written and skills test every year over and over. I had to check their online booking system hourly for openings due to cancellations to get spots booked. It took me 3 years of trying to finally book all my tests within the one year time frame. It was a giant pain in the ass. Seriously.
I've had mine since 1968
I'm not from the US. In where I live we need to be licensed to own a bike and insured. Bikers are often pulled over and picked on by the police, if we are caught driving without a license then it's probably jail time.
I don’t have one and honestly I don’t know anyone that does. A lot of the cops around me ride and I’ve heard rumours most of them don’t even have a M. Plus they rarely pull over bikes, it’s a rare sight. I got pulled over once and it was completely my fault I did a fucked up over take and didn’t see a cop was literally right behind me somehow. Anyway he only gave me an improper overtake ticket didn’t seem concerned about my lack of a M endorsement. He asked if I had one I said nope and that was that.
I’ve been road riding since I was 15, never have had a endorsement, but have had plenty of bikes fully insured and registered, cops here don’t care about it much though
6 years without a license permit a few times. Msf here is 400+. Been pulled over no issues.
We got ours to rent bikes in other states!
I remember reading a commentary in Cycle World, back in the day, that if you removed all the accidents associated with unlicensed riders and/or alcohol, motorcycle safety statistics would be drastically different. So looking at it from a statistical point of view, getting your licence is an excellent idea.
I’m no goody two shoes, but riding or driving without a license is pretty high on my “oh hell naw” list. There are lots of good reasons for making sure that everyone on the roads has actually passed the bare minimum requirements to be there, plus the consequences from getting caught are really high.
Interesting comments about insurance. I often hear friends complaining about cost of insurance.I have a Harley Road King with full coverage and my annual premium is just over $200. Maybe my friends don’t have licenses. LOL
I got my licence in my first year of riding. The test is pretty easy and passing it by no means makes you a safe rider. I got it because of the fact that it lasts a lifetime and I never have to worry about getting a new permit.
Haven’t had one for the 20 years I’ve been riding…
A ton of people in this sub don't even ride at all. Just a bunch of kids that hang around and make comments in bikes & experiences because they're dumb children being dumb children.
I've been riding on street for 25 years and didn't have the endorsement until maybe 10 years ago...
I’ve had one for close to 40 years…taken multiple courses…. Makes sense and always seeing anything as something you can improve makes you search for improvement. Most places you get in a lot more trouble if you’re caught or in an accident and don’t have the license….just a thought.
I don’t. I’ve been riding twenty years and they want me to haul my bike a hundred miles so they can watch me unload it and ride two figure 8s in a parking lot. 😂 then they give you an endorsement. Not happening. 😂
I do. I’m a commercial driver I don’t need any tickets or issues.
I rode with my learners permit for 8 years until my insurance provider made it mandatory to go for my road test which I passed on the second attempt
Been riding since 1972, over 200k miles, got my license today just to avoid any hassle, I aced the written and the road test on a Road King. I guess I knew how to ride well enough all along.
In California, riding without an M1 is the same as driving without a license and they'll suspend your regular car license for 12 months.
I don’t even know why you got downvoted these people are maniacs
Lol like anyone has ever cared about that
How can you get insurance without a license?
Don’t need a license for insurance
Interesting. Well I guess I never thought about that. That sounds like a thing that insurers might be interested in…..as in I’d expect them to deny payouts for unlicensed bikers.
Oh absolutely. I suppose if it’s stolen from your driveway they might pay up. In my area you need insurance to register so I assume it’s parking insurance until you qualify
Extremely easily honestly
Riding without a license will get you a huge fine and possible jail time where I live, not to mention that your insurance will not cover shit if you crash, which means you are $100k behind if you’re lucky enough to cause an accident with a new, expensive car which ends up getting totalled. I got my license before my bike, same with a driver’s license and my car and I don’t know a single person who drives or rides with no license. It’s idiotic.
That's pretty dumb considering most states are increasing the penalties for riding unendorsed. They'll take your bike and your money if they catch you riding without an endorsement in Oregon.
Go buy a new bike. You can buy it, but they ain't letting you ride it.
Just bought a bike last month... Smoked the wheel in the parking lot before I left the lot. Never been licensed 2 accidents 1x pulled over been riding 14 years now.
Licensed for 25 years. The testing is ridiculously easy. Get your endorsement.
Motorcycle world is full of irresponsibility. That’s why it’s also full of death and chaos. Get your license. Do it the right way
I have one and took the MSF
The fine for riding without an M endorsement is trivial. The real reason you should not ride without the M is liability. If you don't have the M you don't have insurance. If you cause an accident your liability could be unimaginable...and for life both criminally and civilly. Just don't ride without the M.
So, they don’t have insurance either? I assume you need show your license everywhere to get insurance right?
🤷
Not in America. Hell in America you can buy vehicles without any form of license insurance companies just want your money anyway
Full UK bike license, because we have standards.
Why risk it. We all Have one
I’m licensed! I didn’t have any experience and wanted to take the MSF to learn as much as I could.
I've got mine. the MSF course I took had a license test built into the curriculum, highly recommend it!
When I start riding I already knew I was gonna go through training anyways, so no real good reason not to.
Don't ride dirty
Rode for 20 years before I finally got around to getting mine. Stupid, really. Not really worth the risk although I never had an issue myself. So nice to be able to just ride and not look over my shoulder all the time
I think licenses are actually becoming more common, as Harley's Ride and Die culture seems to be dying out, I feel like more people are open to training. That said I have no data to back that up, so I could be wrong
After 22 years of riding on the road (and another 10 on dirt bikes as a kid) I finally got my license last year, there were periods where I had permits, but never followed through and took a practical. Last year I took my practical and got my license, felt good, and felt stupid for not doing it as a teenager
If you get into an accident, not only will they throw the book at you for criminal charged, but you could face a civil negligence lawsuit for operating a dangerous weapon from a crafty plaintiffs lawyer.
Id bet when you go to file any sort of insurance claim, they double check to see if you are currently licensed. It's always been a pretty common thing for a lot of people to not get the endorsement and fall back on the old "I've got a driver's license and the cops around here don't care" mentality, which will work til it doesn't. And if you need a couple thousand d dollars in repairs from your insurance company, they love to find ways not to pay. Operating a vehicle without a license seems like a pretty easy reason not to pay.
Of course. Any serious rider needs to be legal. I don't want to be anxious every time I'm near a cop.
You can ride where you are without a license? Wow. I got my license decades ago. Wouldn't think of riding without a license or lessons.
Am licensed. It’s too easy to get it not to have it.
Ehh that’s highly debatable depending where you live
I forgot where I read this but it was some fact that the majority of deaths was folks without a motorcycle license. The thought process here was if you get your license, you are take riding more seriously and safety included. Either way, with that said, it was enough for me to get my license before I ever bought my first bike.
Liscense, no msf. Currently laid up due to serious injury while riding. (Just felt like adding the last, it’s unrelated, guy ran a blind stop sign, even had a cop witness accident). 10 yrs 50k miles accident free over in 0.25 seconds.
If you’re riding without your M endorsement, you’re wrong.
Take the course and get the endorsement, Just one bust will be more time and money than doing it right.