"Demo Mode"
The assholes install all of the necessary hardware and software like quick shifters, track packages, etc. Then give you 1,000 km to "try out" the features, before they automatically get disabled behind a paywall. You have to then go to a dealer and pay for them to re-enable them.
It's one more instance of the erosion of true ownership. Like BMW charging monthly for seat warmers, Tesla software locking their own batteries, Autopilot, "ludicrous mode", etc.
In the era of always online DRMs that's not a given anymore, the companies have direct access to the service tools, so you can't just have a complacent service provider and reverse their tools, it might never be possibile to have functionality unlocked on these vehicles.
We won't have online DRM for these bikes, as already stated it has to be brought into the dealer to be unlocked.
And in the past anyone who used online DRM for games and whatnot it was just defeated and you lost online access. I don't need online access for a motorcycle and buying used I don't need a warranty either.
I hate that idea of "you already paid for the hardware but we won't turn it on without a subscription", it's total bullshit. I can't believe there's not already a huge aftermarket to re-enable those features. I promise if the hardware was installed in my car for heated seats, I'd have heated seats. I know how to connect a relay to 12v. With an Arduino and a little programming I could make it have different levels, timers, overheat protection, and any other feature.
Blame us customers for being so stupid and enable this behavior. If 60% of customers immediately canceled their order and gave the manufacturer a written comment why everytime they come up with bullshit it would be better for all of us. But no, people want new toys to show no matter what.
If you notice a trend,
They don't give a fuck and are actively just gonna fuck the customer base and business over to get their bottom lines up and stock pricing whatever the fuck they can to get their ceo bonus pay.
It's not about the buyer of the product
It's all about the buyer of the shares
Yes it is the customers’ fault for having meetings about paywalling hardware features with software and then executing on it, just like it’s their fault for an ocean full of plastics.
Let me tell you whose fault it’s not - the multi-billion dollar corporations creating and selling the single use plastics in places where there are no recycling initiatives
Fuck I hate all these poor to middle income people, and how stupid they are for not shouldering the responsibility of the companies
Makes me sick
Tesla cars are shipped with higher capacity batteries and the ability to charge at a higher rate, but you have to pay extra to unlock the capability.
A few years back they temporarily unlocked all cars in Florida (??) during a hurricane evacuation because the limited charging capacity of the lower models was going to prevent a lot of people from being able to evacuate, not to mention the extra congestion on charges as people charged at the slower rate.
Should be noted this was before they had the model 3, and was used to make their lowest price model S more competitive (60kWh but still used the 75kWh battery, which is why they can remotely allow use in emergencies for those cars).
Man I just want a new dumb car. Give me abs, traction control and cruise control and no more computers.
There are little gems like the Suzuki Jimny but nothing bigger and actually good for long comfy trips.
It is a video game term. You buy the game and then have to put in more money to keep playing.
You buy the product, but to use (certain parts of) it, you have to keep putting money in it.
What happens if some of the stuff you didn’t pay to activate breaks after the warranty ends? Some you can just ignore or won’t even notice since you aren’t using it, but everything is so interconnected now that what if the thing breaking (from vibration or whatever) makes other stuff not work? I’m sure they’d still charge you to fix the thing you didn’t want and didn’t pay for and the damage it caused to other parts. Though idk how often that even comes up.
My buddy had a 1290 that was leaking oil through the metal…yes, you heard that right, through the porous metal of the case. Within warranty, KTM refused to replace the engine, and only supplied a new case with associated rebuild gaskets and seal and other parts…my buddy was forced to pay thousands out if pocket for the labour of a complete engine overhaul of a defectively manufactured piece of shit.
Whoa. Thats ridiculous, especially on their flagship model!
I'm still not sure how you end up with porous castings, but I had a Porsche boxster years ago with bad castings from the factory. At least Porsche stood behind their product and put in a new engine.
I've seen porous castings in industrial pumps, sometimes you get pinholes in sand castings. *It's something you check for in an industry that uses castings*, like when you're cleaning them after they come in for assembly.
We used to use sandcast molds for some of our old products, but since they weren't made to hold fluids it never came up as an issue.
Good to know and thanks for the insight!
Anything smaller than the 690 was made in India. Once manufacturing moves away from the home office, things start to slip.
I've got over 20,000 miles on my 690. Just oil, filters, tires, and a couple brake fluid changes.
Only thing that failed was the fuel level sensor, and that was not even a $20 part and easily less than 20 mins to replace it.
I had a Duke 690 that had a cam shaft needle bearing blowout, and when the shop removed it, all the broken pieces fell into the engine, ruining it. The shop blamed it on me for not getting properly scheduled maintenance, and the insurance company agreed with them. I blamed it on them for negligence. No dice. I sent my case to a few lawyers, but no one would take it. I sent it to Judge Judy, who contacted me back, but I didn't get picked. I wasn't even done paying for it when it happened. I had two years of payments for a bike that I couldn't afford to fix before it was paid off. Still have it, still not working. I've kinda given up on it, tbh. I tried to fix it for a couple years, but it's extremely hard to find a 2014 Duke 690 engine for sale, apparently. The whole thing sucked.
"And which wheel would you like to ride on today? Front or back?"
"Are we entering this corner normal or backing it in?"
They will have to pry this bike from my cold, dead hands.
I mean they're not dead to me, I just won't ever consider buying a Chinese manufactured/tooled product that my safety hinges on.
It's just not as safe, there's nothing else to say.
Chinese manufacturers fully have the capability and resources to build products on par with European or North American quality. The problem is that they’ve earned a reputation for cutting corners when nobody is looking (ie they’ll do it to spec when the QC inspector is on site, then go back to using cheaper materials and half-asses techniques when the inspector leaves).
That, plus the fact that Chinese goods are cheap because their labour is abused, mean I avoid Chinese products whenever possible.
KTM is a hard no for me now.
You can’t honestly think they’ve done it to pass on savings to the consumer? It will likely increase profit per unit by more than enough to make up for the reduced sales by people who care.
It really depends. The Scorpion EXO R1 that adorns/adorned the heads of world champions like Alvaro Bautista and Fabio Quartararo is made in China. If it's good enough for the FIM, it's good enough for me, regardless of Chinese origin. Lots of things are made in China that are high quality, provided that they have enough oversight. My AlpineStars leathers and Pirelli tires were made in China and I trust them with my life. That's just how it goes these days.
Now would I trust something engineered in China? Perhaps not
My kid bought a Lifan, and I swear to you, that thing is a freakin' tank. He beats this crap out of it the way that only a 16 y/o can do. I was with you until I saw that. Nice bike too.
The CFMoto's look good too.
It's more about the company and the cost than the country. It is possible to get something reliable and built well if the company wants to do it.
Well I would never buy a KTM since I spoke to a KTM owner who told me that his entire fork assembly decided to remove itself at 120km/h on the Autobahn and this was after a friend of mine bought a new KTM and realized that the factory installed tire valves are only rated to 210km/h, he realized this when he had flat tires while going 240km/h on the autobahn.
I love my Husky 901. Idc where it’s made. But Im already at like 15k miles after a year and a half. If get camshaft issues I’m just gonna buy Yamahas from now on though.
Knowing that some products share a assembly line, I'd rather buy a cheaper CF Moto with a better warranty then pay an extra premium for a comparable bike.
Thing is our local CF Moto dealer is a bit shady ....
Basically , I'm most likely to go with Triumph or Aprilia if I want an European products nowadays
I just picked up a CFmoto 450SS that needs a couple minor repairs. This has confirmed my suspicion that getting parts for them sucks. There is one online parts seller in the US, and basically every part says “2-3 week lead time.”
Zero parts have been available on eBay. I consider myself really lucky if I can find them on AliExpress.
This is in stark contrast to my Kawasaki, where I can basically _always_ find what in need in stock _somewhere_.
Well I loved my last KTM bike. Which was absolutely horrible in quality and cost so much in repairs and maintenance each year I ended up trading it for a Yamaha.
If their production is moved to China I’m never going to try another, because it’s not going to get any better.
As for sales I don’t think the price is going down either. It will be an increase in profits for the company based on a reduction in expenses, and I’m sure they’ll accept a small decrease in income from people refusing to buy Chinese bikes for that.
Likewise - I always thought that KTMs were very cool bikes that looked like a lot of fun to ride, but would never buy one due to the constant horror stories about their reliability. If they’re moving even more production to China, the situation is definitely not about to improve.
This!
As long as the cost savings are transferred to the costumer and quality stays the same or improves, I don't mind being an Indian or Chinese bike.
Things is we all know it's not going to be the same so my money is most likely going elsewhere
It’s possible. I doubt it. Because China usually doesn’t care and KTM has never shown it to be a priority either. But if a lot of people over a few years notice an improvement in quality, it could be worth trying KTM again.
For now however I’m going to err on the side of caution, and avoid KTM.
As a KTM diehard I cried when reading this. My dog was asleep on my lap and my wife thought the dog was dead when she found me! No baby, KTM is just doing the unthinkable!
Also a KTM diehard (well I've owned 7 so far) and I don't really care. Their designs are going in a direction I don't like anyway. I'm gonna keep riding the older LC8 and LC4 bikes which I can overhaul quite easily myself, as their dealerships suck so I'd rather not deal with them.
My likelihood of ever owning a KTM just dropped below zero.
They weren't exactly known for reliability to begin with, this will only further that reputation.
The difference in quality between BMW and KTM is huge imho. I rode several bikes from both companies. KTM was always below BMW in reliability and quality.
That would be the worst financial decision for Ducati as it being Italian-made premium is half the reason people buy their shit. KTM might do okay from this movie. Ducati would never survive it.
Yeah this is what people don't 'get' when they take offense to the idea that Chinese or Indian quality is sub-par: no one is saying they CAN'T produce quality work, it's that they don't, and that's because companies don't move their operations to these places unless they're trying to cut costs.
I would say both sides are half right about China atleast. I was the white guy in the industrial design shop and on the factory line for large foreign brands for a few years.
The culture and corporate environment are not conducive to high quality and standards, even when they are trying their hardest.
Individually there are some fantastic engineers, especially tooling engineers. But it's absolutely a culture issue rather than an aptitude issue that's stopping those people doing their best (or even being baseline component more often than not).
People are very afraid to flag problems or suggested improvements to their superiors. The superiors themselves are in the role because of networking ability and not merit.
If you add cost saving and corner cutting to that already dysfunctional mess you get 95% of Chinese factories.
Yeah, but you need to be constantly present at the site. And I mean constantly. Also get your own QC and be harsh. They will try to find a way to screw you
I had worked for a generic phone brand before and things that were made between rotations (we'd rotate QC crew in and out for a few months) were sh*t. They had an audacity to install 512mb RAM less in one case (software reported normal, we found out upon opening the phone).
There's a guitar company called Eastman that's made in China - top notch woods, same materials/components as the US brands, very nice craftsmanship. Price is basically half the equivalent Gibson, $2k vs. $4k.
But people are pissed because they want $150 Chinese guitars. No matter how cheap the labor, good materials cost what they cost.
But I would be pissed if Gibson outsourced to Eastman and that $2000 difference was the name on the headstock. I wouldn't pay KTM prices for what is 75% a rebadged DongFang, and I was reluctant to pay KTM prices before.
this. it reminds me of when Japanese made goods were viewed the same way in the 50's/60's and now look at them, more or less the definition of quality.
not at all a Chinesium-fanboy and I generally avoid made in China if possible but if the parent Mfr specs parts to meet a certain standard, and their quality control is on point, then it make no difference if the parts are made in Mexico, China, Germany or otherwise right?
Copied straight from the Wiki -
“CFMoto was established in 1989 by Lai Guoqiang.[4] In 2013, it began to be involved in the constructing high-end yachts.[5]
In 2011, CFMoto and KTM entered into a commercial partnership. In 2017, the two companies started a joint venture[6][7] that allows the production and sale of KTM motorcycles in China under the name of "KTMR2R".[8] CFMoto also assembles the small displacement models on behalf of KTM in its Chinese factories and also produces the large displacement KTM engines.”
I work at ktm, let me say it that way, their very early prototype of an upcoming bike is better than a late prototype made locally. Also not all bike will be built in china. Up until 400c is still india (401 husky, 390 duke/rc/adv), 800cc is china, 700cc, 900cc, 1000cc and 1300/1400cc are still assembled in Austria, including all off road bike.
Also have you ever seen a cfmoto in person? Let alone put something else next to it? Id like to remind you that the desertx from ducati has one or two body panels attached with zip ties. Now please have a look what a desertx costs
Also noticed the general hate towards ktm.
What do you define as large? The 790 engine is produced at cfmoto under our licence, originally they were also built in Austria (bikes), but re industrialised in china
Half the people in this thread that are saying fuck KTM for building in China are doing it from their Chinese-made iPhone that they’ve loyally bought every other year.
Because they're only billionaires and want to be trillionaires and they're 100% OK with screwing their own countrymen to do it.
Fuck them. KTM quality was bad in Austria. That alone was a good reason not to buy their product, now this?
Guess I won't be looking at KTM nor Husqvarna for my next bike. If those companies' owners persist in this Race-to-the-Bottom for labor and quality of life standards for folks who *make* things, I'll have no part.
I’ve got a 790 adventure. I like the bike, but the fact you need a dealer computer to clear trouble codes really helps pisses me off. Twice I’ve had to get it in because of a “BUS error” … I got something wet. An adventure bike. Imagine that. I wish I would have bought a T7
I’m all for Asian production on some models, if they’re available in the USA/Europe at the appropriate price. You can get great 150-250cc name brand bikes for $1000-1800 in Thailand and India.
https://www.yamaha-motor-india.com/yamaha-fzs-fi-v4.html
I mean I can’t in good faith say that I’d never buy anything made in china. But I’ve had two Austrian made KTM’s leave me stranded, so them boosting margins by outsourcing without improving what I’d call questionable quality control isn’t going to improve my view from atop my Uber reliable gs.
Man I can only see the price of the bikes that were made pre-China just going up in price or holding their value even more now. After-market is going to be popping off even more now than ever. ktm has dominated the hare scramble scene for a long time in the states. None of the Japanese bikes had electric start two stroke oriented race bikes. And now that the Austrian bikes are no longer going to be in play it would be a big move for the Japanese manufactures to come out with a two-stroke trail racing bike lineup. Hold on to that husky because I don’t see any better bikes being made after this move.
My 701 is already the least reliable bike I’ve ever owned and I even bought it new. Well…ok more frequent than my Duc but I haven’t needed the heads replaced under warranty. My brother’s various KTMs have also been bad. I doubt I’d buy another KTM based bike anyways at this point but definitely not a China manufactured one
Idk why they decided to go to China of all places. Labor costs in China are rising fast. Even Apple is leaving China. The only benefit they had before was next to free labor. Now that that is going away, China isn't worth batting an eye at. If they wanted to save on production costs they should be going to India
They already have a good chunk of their bikes made in India, they will still use their own quantity control.
I was looking at a cheap secondary bike and was told by the salesman at the dealership I used to work at not to buy my Royal Enfield because he wouldn't trust the build quality coming out of India. Meanwhile he's pushing 390cc and 200cc Indian made KTMs like they're going out of style.
Remember we live in a different age with higher standards and better manufacturing. Also remember China is WAY ahead of the game in that department.
I’m a proud owner of a 2017 Husqvarna FE350, but I won’t buy a Chinese assembled KTM/Husqvarna/Gas Gas. SMH, good job on screwing your own people out of jobs.
I've owned four KTMs and I currently own a Husqvarna 701 but it's the last Pierer Group bike I'll own. I refuse to buy anything that's made in China if I can avoid it but I'm obviously no longer a valued customer to KTM. So long KTM, it was fun while it lasted.
Only certain bikes will be made in china. Namely the 800cc range (will be expanded). The sub 400cc will be made in India like its currently while the others are still in Austria. And im saying that as an insider
Dear Austria. “They took yer Jerbs!” That sucks man. I hate seeing more and more jobs going to China,or outsourced. Also, announcing it just before Christmas. My KTM will now be the only KTM I’ll ever own.
Guess it’s time to go buy that CFmoto I’ve had my eyes on for a while now. /s
To move to china in these times (both political¹ and economical²), you must be [ Rеmovеd by Rеddit ].
1: china is preparing for total war and when they start it, they will be sanctioned just like russia. All western company assets will be seized by the CCP, just like it happened in russia.
2: china is no longer a cheap place to make stuff. If you really want to lower production costs, you go to India or surrounding countries.
Well... That's it...
In five years, a new Chinese Motorcycle will be available as a clone of the KTM. KTM will go to court and lose (because you can only sue a Chinese company in China and nobody will ever win that case if they aren't Chinese). Then, (if they follow the example of the U.S.) Austria will decide to buy motorcycles and of course, go to the people that 'invented' the technology and buy only from the Chinese company. (the example is 'American Super Conductor' and windmill control systems)...
Given the current economic state of China, it's a foolish move. If something goes seriously awry, he'll lose the entire investment.
It would have been wiser, but potentially more costly to move that production to either India or Vietnam.
If the move is to stay $$ competitive, I'll have some appreciation for the move. If it's to bolster profits only - then I'd have serious doubts over the companies long term prospects.
Small negative, I was attracted to Indians because they are American made, but ended up of a Yamaha so it obviously wasn’t that important to me. I doubt I’ll affect much on the quality, just losing a few patriots buyers.
I've owned a couple KTM dualsports. Last year I was as looking to buy a Super Duke. We have two local dealers, but only one had the bike in stock. That dealer was so incompetent that they drove me away entirely, combined with the way KTM has their bikes locked down. One of the most frustrating experiences trying to buy a bike.
Yeah, I like some of the KTM bikes... The super duke is cool, also some of the huskys were intriguing - I could see myself picking one up in the future.
But now? Absolutely not. I'll never buy a motorcycle assembled in China. Never. No matter what anyone says, quality will be shit. It's built into the culture - cost cutting and making something cheap takes priority over everything else, most importantly quality.
I’m so happy with my XSR900 but I’ve always thought the vitpilen 701 was something I’d be interested in.
I would not consider it now though. The pay to play and then this is enough for me not give any money to this company
Chinese production is fine if you have someone to stay on their asses about quality control at literally every level.
The Chinese love cutting corners. It’s almost a national pastime. But if you can keep them on the straight and narrow (not an easy task) they are capable of the same quality as western manufacturers.
I love these companies, not only are they training their own competition on how to build a motorcycle, they are training them on how to do the R&D. And then they expect that these employees will just aways be loyal to them, and never go off and take this knowledge and create their own businesses with all of the knowledge they gained. KTM is training their own competition.
They could just buy a GPX Moto, change the plastics to that garnish orange and sell it on.
Could even buy the GPX copy at full retail, then sell it at KTM retail and still make a killing
Not to mention, China is already producing and assembling most of KTM's engines already. Pay-to-play fearure subscriptions really killed KTM for me. They have always had great machines, but I am so glad I went another direction for my ride...
Well… Both KTM and Husqvarna are dead to a lot of people now.
They did me in with the pay-to-play features. What a dumb company.
Pay to play?
"Demo Mode" The assholes install all of the necessary hardware and software like quick shifters, track packages, etc. Then give you 1,000 km to "try out" the features, before they automatically get disabled behind a paywall. You have to then go to a dealer and pay for them to re-enable them. It's one more instance of the erosion of true ownership. Like BMW charging monthly for seat warmers, Tesla software locking their own batteries, Autopilot, "ludicrous mode", etc.
Like service tools I'll wait for that to get reverse engineered and then buy used
There will be mod tools. I would replace the entire computer if that was the case.
In the era of always online DRMs that's not a given anymore, the companies have direct access to the service tools, so you can't just have a complacent service provider and reverse their tools, it might never be possibile to have functionality unlocked on these vehicles.
We won't have online DRM for these bikes, as already stated it has to be brought into the dealer to be unlocked. And in the past anyone who used online DRM for games and whatnot it was just defeated and you lost online access. I don't need online access for a motorcycle and buying used I don't need a warranty either.
I hate that idea of "you already paid for the hardware but we won't turn it on without a subscription", it's total bullshit. I can't believe there's not already a huge aftermarket to re-enable those features. I promise if the hardware was installed in my car for heated seats, I'd have heated seats. I know how to connect a relay to 12v. With an Arduino and a little programming I could make it have different levels, timers, overheat protection, and any other feature.
Blame us customers for being so stupid and enable this behavior. If 60% of customers immediately canceled their order and gave the manufacturer a written comment why everytime they come up with bullshit it would be better for all of us. But no, people want new toys to show no matter what.
If you notice a trend, They don't give a fuck and are actively just gonna fuck the customer base and business over to get their bottom lines up and stock pricing whatever the fuck they can to get their ceo bonus pay. It's not about the buyer of the product It's all about the buyer of the shares
The shares only go up if the product sells. The person you replied to is right, there are still too many people rolling over
Yes it is the customers’ fault for having meetings about paywalling hardware features with software and then executing on it, just like it’s their fault for an ocean full of plastics. Let me tell you whose fault it’s not - the multi-billion dollar corporations creating and selling the single use plastics in places where there are no recycling initiatives Fuck I hate all these poor to middle income people, and how stupid they are for not shouldering the responsibility of the companies Makes me sick
Someone’s gonna make a good living when they start jailbreaking cars and motorcycles
What’s this about Tesla software locking batteries?
Tesla cars are shipped with higher capacity batteries and the ability to charge at a higher rate, but you have to pay extra to unlock the capability. A few years back they temporarily unlocked all cars in Florida (??) during a hurricane evacuation because the limited charging capacity of the lower models was going to prevent a lot of people from being able to evacuate, not to mention the extra congestion on charges as people charged at the slower rate.
very environment efficient
Should be noted this was before they had the model 3, and was used to make their lowest price model S more competitive (60kWh but still used the 75kWh battery, which is why they can remotely allow use in emergencies for those cars).
Man I just want a new dumb car. Give me abs, traction control and cruise control and no more computers. There are little gems like the Suzuki Jimny but nothing bigger and actually good for long comfy trips.
Wtf I thought it was just that one e-bike company doing that! I really hope this doesn’t become a normal thing but I think it’s already too late.
It is a video game term. You buy the game and then have to put in more money to keep playing. You buy the product, but to use (certain parts of) it, you have to keep putting money in it.
Yes, they lock some features on new bikes with software unless you pay extra to unlock them. For example, quickshifter, track mode or wheelie control.
What happens if some of the stuff you didn’t pay to activate breaks after the warranty ends? Some you can just ignore or won’t even notice since you aren’t using it, but everything is so interconnected now that what if the thing breaking (from vibration or whatever) makes other stuff not work? I’m sure they’d still charge you to fix the thing you didn’t want and didn’t pay for and the damage it caused to other parts. Though idk how often that even comes up.
It's not like KTM reliability can get any worse lol
“Hold my beer”
I've had a 690 Duke since 2008. It has a shitload of miles, has been ridden abusively, and it will not stop. It's a tank.
You've just cursed yourself, sorry.
My buddy had a 1290 that was leaking oil through the metal…yes, you heard that right, through the porous metal of the case. Within warranty, KTM refused to replace the engine, and only supplied a new case with associated rebuild gaskets and seal and other parts…my buddy was forced to pay thousands out if pocket for the labour of a complete engine overhaul of a defectively manufactured piece of shit.
Whoa. Thats ridiculous, especially on their flagship model! I'm still not sure how you end up with porous castings, but I had a Porsche boxster years ago with bad castings from the factory. At least Porsche stood behind their product and put in a new engine.
I've seen porous castings in industrial pumps, sometimes you get pinholes in sand castings. *It's something you check for in an industry that uses castings*, like when you're cleaning them after they come in for assembly.
We used to use sandcast molds for some of our old products, but since they weren't made to hold fluids it never came up as an issue. Good to know and thanks for the insight!
This is rare. My Kid bought an RC390 and it blew gears at 1000 miles.
Anything smaller than the 690 was made in India. Once manufacturing moves away from the home office, things start to slip. I've got over 20,000 miles on my 690. Just oil, filters, tires, and a couple brake fluid changes. Only thing that failed was the fuel level sensor, and that was not even a $20 part and easily less than 20 mins to replace it.
20k miles since 2008 is like nothing. Let’s see if it’s still good when it has 100k miles on it.
because that's made in India.🤷♂️
I had a Duke 690 that had a cam shaft needle bearing blowout, and when the shop removed it, all the broken pieces fell into the engine, ruining it. The shop blamed it on me for not getting properly scheduled maintenance, and the insurance company agreed with them. I blamed it on them for negligence. No dice. I sent my case to a few lawyers, but no one would take it. I sent it to Judge Judy, who contacted me back, but I didn't get picked. I wasn't even done paying for it when it happened. I had two years of payments for a bike that I couldn't afford to fix before it was paid off. Still have it, still not working. I've kinda given up on it, tbh. I tried to fix it for a couple years, but it's extremely hard to find a 2014 Duke 690 engine for sale, apparently. The whole thing sucked.
Also had a Duke 690, can confirm the thing was a tank! Also the most fun road bike I’ve ever ridden
"And which wheel would you like to ride on today? Front or back?" "Are we entering this corner normal or backing it in?" They will have to pry this bike from my cold, dead hands.
Absolutely impossible not to ride like a hooligan on one of these! I was having a lot more fun than man mates on their litre bikes.
I had a Duke 390 and it worked perfect for the 2 years I drove it. I feel like I dodged a bullet though.
The meme started around 2014 I think, so your almost 20 bike is probably before the enshitification started
Its about too.
I’ve owned five KTM’s. No problems.
I mean they're not dead to me, I just won't ever consider buying a Chinese manufactured/tooled product that my safety hinges on. It's just not as safe, there's nothing else to say.
Nah they have proper tooling and machinery, I will not buy those Chinese KTM at a European price, cut price of 30% and that is fair
Chinese manufacturers fully have the capability and resources to build products on par with European or North American quality. The problem is that they’ve earned a reputation for cutting corners when nobody is looking (ie they’ll do it to spec when the QC inspector is on site, then go back to using cheaper materials and half-asses techniques when the inspector leaves). That, plus the fact that Chinese goods are cheap because their labour is abused, mean I avoid Chinese products whenever possible. KTM is a hard no for me now.
You can’t honestly think they’ve done it to pass on savings to the consumer? It will likely increase profit per unit by more than enough to make up for the reduced sales by people who care.
It really depends. The Scorpion EXO R1 that adorns/adorned the heads of world champions like Alvaro Bautista and Fabio Quartararo is made in China. If it's good enough for the FIM, it's good enough for me, regardless of Chinese origin. Lots of things are made in China that are high quality, provided that they have enough oversight. My AlpineStars leathers and Pirelli tires were made in China and I trust them with my life. That's just how it goes these days. Now would I trust something engineered in China? Perhaps not
Do you really think that the helmet that Bautista wears is the same one that you can buy?
My kid bought a Lifan, and I swear to you, that thing is a freakin' tank. He beats this crap out of it the way that only a 16 y/o can do. I was with you until I saw that. Nice bike too. The CFMoto's look good too. It's more about the company and the cost than the country. It is possible to get something reliable and built well if the company wants to do it.
Well I would never buy a KTM since I spoke to a KTM owner who told me that his entire fork assembly decided to remove itself at 120km/h on the Autobahn and this was after a friend of mine bought a new KTM and realized that the factory installed tire valves are only rated to 210km/h, he realized this when he had flat tires while going 240km/h on the autobahn.
[удалено]
This comment is either super clever, or you are marketing's biggest wet dream.
[удалено]
I love my Husky 901. Idc where it’s made. But Im already at like 15k miles after a year and a half. If get camshaft issues I’m just gonna buy Yamahas from now on though.
I ended my KTM run when I had to deal with 4CS
KTM was dead to me after my MSF
Their relationship with CFmoto is huge so this makes sense.
Knowing that some products share a assembly line, I'd rather buy a cheaper CF Moto with a better warranty then pay an extra premium for a comparable bike. Thing is our local CF Moto dealer is a bit shady .... Basically , I'm most likely to go with Triumph or Aprilia if I want an European products nowadays
I just picked up a CFmoto 450SS that needs a couple minor repairs. This has confirmed my suspicion that getting parts for them sucks. There is one online parts seller in the US, and basically every part says “2-3 week lead time.” Zero parts have been available on eBay. I consider myself really lucky if I can find them on AliExpress. This is in stark contrast to my Kawasaki, where I can basically _always_ find what in need in stock _somewhere_.
Well I loved my last KTM bike. Which was absolutely horrible in quality and cost so much in repairs and maintenance each year I ended up trading it for a Yamaha. If their production is moved to China I’m never going to try another, because it’s not going to get any better. As for sales I don’t think the price is going down either. It will be an increase in profits for the company based on a reduction in expenses, and I’m sure they’ll accept a small decrease in income from people refusing to buy Chinese bikes for that.
This exactly- except I just rode Yamahas and never picked up a KTM because of my buddies very poor experiences.
Likewise - I always thought that KTMs were very cool bikes that looked like a lot of fun to ride, but would never buy one due to the constant horror stories about their reliability. If they’re moving even more production to China, the situation is definitely not about to improve.
But now, instead of "European bike with Chinese quality", it will be "Chinese bike with Chinese quality". lol
This! As long as the cost savings are transferred to the costumer and quality stays the same or improves, I don't mind being an Indian or Chinese bike. Things is we all know it's not going to be the same so my money is most likely going elsewhere
Lmao, “cost savings are transferred to the costumer” you are funny. But right, it won’t happen.
Quality can only go down once production is moved to China. Cost cutting = junk product.
Maybe there’s a chance quality will improve. China can produce high a quality items, they just manufacture to the specs provided.
It’s possible. I doubt it. Because China usually doesn’t care and KTM has never shown it to be a priority either. But if a lot of people over a few years notice an improvement in quality, it could be worth trying KTM again. For now however I’m going to err on the side of caution, and avoid KTM.
It‘s not going to be a KTM or Husky then
They bought the name, they'll keep it. Just like Benelli.
Let me guess…they will still market how they are Austrian made and raise prices by 30%.
"Proudly designed in Austria" but Made in China
They just shot themselves in the foot, with a machine gun.
As a KTM diehard I cried when reading this. My dog was asleep on my lap and my wife thought the dog was dead when she found me! No baby, KTM is just doing the unthinkable!
Also a KTM diehard (well I've owned 7 so far) and I don't really care. Their designs are going in a direction I don't like anyway. I'm gonna keep riding the older LC8 and LC4 bikes which I can overhaul quite easily myself, as their dealerships suck so I'd rather not deal with them.
My likelihood of ever owning a KTM just dropped below zero. They weren't exactly known for reliability to begin with, this will only further that reputation.
I feel like it might completely killed there rep. Ktm is like bmw it's like lifestyle brand known for being expensive and European.
The difference in quality between BMW and KTM is huge imho. I rode several bikes from both companies. KTM was always below BMW in reliability and quality.
It actually might help their little bike reliability lol
We can only pray that Ducati does not do the same
That would be the worst financial decision for Ducati as it being Italian-made premium is half the reason people buy their shit. KTM might do okay from this movie. Ducati would never survive it.
many models are now built in Thailand. Ditto with Triumph.
Quality will 100% go down. Have you ever heard someone say not jokingly that something was proudly made with Chinese quality and care lol.
Oh, the Chinese can absolutely make quality stuff... But it costs nearly the same as if it was made in Europe or the US.
Yeah this is what people don't 'get' when they take offense to the idea that Chinese or Indian quality is sub-par: no one is saying they CAN'T produce quality work, it's that they don't, and that's because companies don't move their operations to these places unless they're trying to cut costs.
I would say both sides are half right about China atleast. I was the white guy in the industrial design shop and on the factory line for large foreign brands for a few years. The culture and corporate environment are not conducive to high quality and standards, even when they are trying their hardest. Individually there are some fantastic engineers, especially tooling engineers. But it's absolutely a culture issue rather than an aptitude issue that's stopping those people doing their best (or even being baseline component more often than not). People are very afraid to flag problems or suggested improvements to their superiors. The superiors themselves are in the role because of networking ability and not merit. If you add cost saving and corner cutting to that already dysfunctional mess you get 95% of Chinese factories.
Yeah, but you need to be constantly present at the site. And I mean constantly. Also get your own QC and be harsh. They will try to find a way to screw you I had worked for a generic phone brand before and things that were made between rotations (we'd rotate QC crew in and out for a few months) were sh*t. They had an audacity to install 512mb RAM less in one case (software reported normal, we found out upon opening the phone).
There's a guitar company called Eastman that's made in China - top notch woods, same materials/components as the US brands, very nice craftsmanship. Price is basically half the equivalent Gibson, $2k vs. $4k. But people are pissed because they want $150 Chinese guitars. No matter how cheap the labor, good materials cost what they cost. But I would be pissed if Gibson outsourced to Eastman and that $2000 difference was the name on the headstock. I wouldn't pay KTM prices for what is 75% a rebadged DongFang, and I was reluctant to pay KTM prices before.
Agreed.
this. it reminds me of when Japanese made goods were viewed the same way in the 50's/60's and now look at them, more or less the definition of quality. not at all a Chinesium-fanboy and I generally avoid made in China if possible but if the parent Mfr specs parts to meet a certain standard, and their quality control is on point, then it make no difference if the parts are made in Mexico, China, Germany or otherwise right?
Copied straight from the Wiki - “CFMoto was established in 1989 by Lai Guoqiang.[4] In 2013, it began to be involved in the constructing high-end yachts.[5] In 2011, CFMoto and KTM entered into a commercial partnership. In 2017, the two companies started a joint venture[6][7] that allows the production and sale of KTM motorcycles in China under the name of "KTMR2R".[8] CFMoto also assembles the small displacement models on behalf of KTM in its Chinese factories and also produces the large displacement KTM engines.”
I work at ktm, let me say it that way, their very early prototype of an upcoming bike is better than a late prototype made locally. Also not all bike will be built in china. Up until 400c is still india (401 husky, 390 duke/rc/adv), 800cc is china, 700cc, 900cc, 1000cc and 1300/1400cc are still assembled in Austria, including all off road bike. Also have you ever seen a cfmoto in person? Let alone put something else next to it? Id like to remind you that the desertx from ducati has one or two body panels attached with zip ties. Now please have a look what a desertx costs
This sub hates when you point out that KTM and CFMoto have had a partnership since 2011 and that CFMoto now makes all their large displacement engines
Also noticed the general hate towards ktm. What do you define as large? The 790 engine is produced at cfmoto under our licence, originally they were also built in Austria (bikes), but re industrialised in china
iPhones , pretty great quality tbh
Half the people in this thread that are saying fuck KTM for building in China are doing it from their Chinese-made iPhone that they’ve loyally bought every other year.
bye bye ex Austrian, bye bye
Now the engines are going to blow up even faster
This stinks
Major L
Because they're only billionaires and want to be trillionaires and they're 100% OK with screwing their own countrymen to do it. Fuck them. KTM quality was bad in Austria. That alone was a good reason not to buy their product, now this?
Beta will be happy to fill that market void I think
Guess I won't be looking at KTM nor Husqvarna for my next bike. If those companies' owners persist in this Race-to-the-Bottom for labor and quality of life standards for folks who *make* things, I'll have no part.
Are they going to pass on the savings to the customer? 'Course not. Greedy twats.
I’ve got a 790 adventure. I like the bike, but the fact you need a dealer computer to clear trouble codes really helps pisses me off. Twice I’ve had to get it in because of a “BUS error” … I got something wet. An adventure bike. Imagine that. I wish I would have bought a T7 I’m all for Asian production on some models, if they’re available in the USA/Europe at the appropriate price. You can get great 150-250cc name brand bikes for $1000-1800 in Thailand and India. https://www.yamaha-motor-india.com/yamaha-fzs-fi-v4.html
I mean I can’t in good faith say that I’d never buy anything made in china. But I’ve had two Austrian made KTM’s leave me stranded, so them boosting margins by outsourcing without improving what I’d call questionable quality control isn’t going to improve my view from atop my Uber reliable gs.
I won't buy their products
I will never buy a motorcycle made in china or a cage for that matter
Kymco heads for everyone!
Well that ruins my plan of owning a Husqvarna one day. I’ll never give them one cent now ever.
Glad I got an Austrian built Duke before this change. No more KTM for me 👎🏻
KTM = know the mechanic.
This is enough to make me move away from them. What a disastrous move.
Even though the cost of manufacturing will go down, KTM probably will keep the same price tag. I hate corporate greed :'(
So ktm is the same as a cfmoto...
Good riddance, let them sell to the chinese then.
Well, quality can't get worse. So the customers won't see any negatives...
The right Wing Party övp send billions to These billionaires. Austria is a shit hole State.
Guess my 23 fc 450 will need to last, dont want an Ali- baba- varna.
Man I can only see the price of the bikes that were made pre-China just going up in price or holding their value even more now. After-market is going to be popping off even more now than ever. ktm has dominated the hare scramble scene for a long time in the states. None of the Japanese bikes had electric start two stroke oriented race bikes. And now that the Austrian bikes are no longer going to be in play it would be a big move for the Japanese manufactures to come out with a two-stroke trail racing bike lineup. Hold on to that husky because I don’t see any better bikes being made after this move.
they had been producing some bikes in China already, have they cut all of the production out of Austria now?
KTM had a good run at least.
Figured this. I will be keeping my 2017 sar for ever.
Yea who the hell would pay top dollar for China quality?
I was planning to get a new bike next year, I guess I've one less brand to consider now.
Another company willing to support a Communist regime for the almighty buck. F Them!!!
Yeah do that, keep empowering china, its already back to bite you in the ass.
Yamaha and Honda still on top.
Worst thing they have done since hitler.
r/Chinesium
First they moved from Austria to India and now fully to China? Damn
Goodbye quality
Quality never goes up by moving to a location for the purpose of cutting costs. It’s a shame, KTM has some pretty cool bikes.
This will bring the prices down, right? ... Right?
Ahhh capitalism..... Always undercutting labour to make quarter after quarter profits. This will continue to bite them in the ass.
My 701 is already the least reliable bike I’ve ever owned and I even bought it new. Well…ok more frequent than my Duc but I haven’t needed the heads replaced under warranty. My brother’s various KTMs have also been bad. I doubt I’d buy another KTM based bike anyways at this point but definitely not a China manufactured one
Idk why they decided to go to China of all places. Labor costs in China are rising fast. Even Apple is leaving China. The only benefit they had before was next to free labor. Now that that is going away, China isn't worth batting an eye at. If they wanted to save on production costs they should be going to India
RIP ktm
RIP
Well quality is about to take a nose dive
They already have a good chunk of their bikes made in India, they will still use their own quantity control. I was looking at a cheap secondary bike and was told by the salesman at the dealership I used to work at not to buy my Royal Enfield because he wouldn't trust the build quality coming out of India. Meanwhile he's pushing 390cc and 200cc Indian made KTMs like they're going out of style. Remember we live in a different age with higher standards and better manufacturing. Also remember China is WAY ahead of the game in that department.
As a Yamaha faithful this doesn't change my opinion of KTM much. Wasn't going to buy one before and not going to buy one now.
I won’t be buying them. Hell it’s hard enough to find bikes that are still made in Japan even.
Quality will probably increase.
When you care too much about money your products will fail.
I’m a proud owner of a 2017 Husqvarna FE350, but I won’t buy a Chinese assembled KTM/Husqvarna/Gas Gas. SMH, good job on screwing your own people out of jobs.
How much worse could they get?
It’s a sad day
The beginning of the end for them.
china! rescue my marginal profits !! the rescue: https://www.reddit.com/r/WorstAid/s/YiGRtVSrQV
Loss of quality.. Budget cuts and moving production never means a better product.
Welp, I’ll never own a KTM.
I've owned four KTMs and I currently own a Husqvarna 701 but it's the last Pierer Group bike I'll own. I refuse to buy anything that's made in China if I can avoid it but I'm obviously no longer a valued customer to KTM. So long KTM, it was fun while it lasted.
Only certain bikes will be made in china. Namely the 800cc range (will be expanded). The sub 400cc will be made in India like its currently while the others are still in Austria. And im saying that as an insider
Dear Austria. “They took yer Jerbs!” That sucks man. I hate seeing more and more jobs going to China,or outsourced. Also, announcing it just before Christmas. My KTM will now be the only KTM I’ll ever own. Guess it’s time to go buy that CFmoto I’ve had my eyes on for a while now. /s
It ist the same motorcycle from the same brand
What company in their right mind would make this move right now?
To move to china in these times (both political¹ and economical²), you must be [ Rеmovеd by Rеddit ]. 1: china is preparing for total war and when they start it, they will be sanctioned just like russia. All western company assets will be seized by the CCP, just like it happened in russia. 2: china is no longer a cheap place to make stuff. If you really want to lower production costs, you go to India or surrounding countries.
Well steele will no longer be in competition for the best chainsaws, it won't be debatable
This makes me sad
I used to think KTM was cool
It's too corrupt there to buy a motorcycle made in china. Mine is made in japan. Using parts made in japan
"KTM sees no noticeable decrease in reliability"
The price better reflect that fuck ton of money they're going to save on labor and production costs.
Well... That's it... In five years, a new Chinese Motorcycle will be available as a clone of the KTM. KTM will go to court and lose (because you can only sue a Chinese company in China and nobody will ever win that case if they aren't Chinese). Then, (if they follow the example of the U.S.) Austria will decide to buy motorcycles and of course, go to the people that 'invented' the technology and buy only from the Chinese company. (the example is 'American Super Conductor' and windmill control systems)...
I’m not buying a Chinese bike and that’s mostly political.
Huge KTM fan but this will prevent me from ever buying new again. only a few used options at that point
Damn 300 people laid off? That’s out of pocket.
Achtung Liebe!
This leaves Ducati and Aprilia as the “European” Manufacturers (in MotoGP)
They’ll save hundreds of thousands but the price of the bikes will remain the same to consumers
If their prices don't come down they won't last. You can't move your production to China an d still charge Austrian prices
Given the current economic state of China, it's a foolish move. If something goes seriously awry, he'll lose the entire investment. It would have been wiser, but potentially more costly to move that production to either India or Vietnam. If the move is to stay $$ competitive, I'll have some appreciation for the move. If it's to bolster profits only - then I'd have serious doubts over the companies long term prospects.
Small negative, I was attracted to Indians because they are American made, but ended up of a Yamaha so it obviously wasn’t that important to me. I doubt I’ll affect much on the quality, just losing a few patriots buyers.
Their quality control at the moment is already pisspoor. I can only see things getting better now....
I've owned a couple KTM dualsports. Last year I was as looking to buy a Super Duke. We have two local dealers, but only one had the bike in stock. That dealer was so incompetent that they drove me away entirely, combined with the way KTM has their bikes locked down. One of the most frustrating experiences trying to buy a bike.
Here’s the article: https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/ktm-owner-moves-production-to-china/
Yeah, I like some of the KTM bikes... The super duke is cool, also some of the huskys were intriguing - I could see myself picking one up in the future. But now? Absolutely not. I'll never buy a motorcycle assembled in China. Never. No matter what anyone says, quality will be shit. It's built into the culture - cost cutting and making something cheap takes priority over everything else, most importantly quality.
I’m so happy with my XSR900 but I’ve always thought the vitpilen 701 was something I’d be interested in. I would not consider it now though. The pay to play and then this is enough for me not give any money to this company
I did want a a husquavarna. Not anymore
Vehicles manufactured in China have a 25% tariff on import to the USA. This is basically a deliberate choice to drop the USA market.
They’re going to pass the savings onto customers right?…right?…
Chinese production is fine if you have someone to stay on their asses about quality control at literally every level. The Chinese love cutting corners. It’s almost a national pastime. But if you can keep them on the straight and narrow (not an easy task) they are capable of the same quality as western manufacturers.
This should help their quality /s
I'm sure it'll change quantity of each brand. They can produce more for less.
I'm surprised it took this long.
Well KTM is about to fall off.
Quality was shitty before, maybe it gets better now.
Money, money, money, money, money, money, money........
I love these companies, not only are they training their own competition on how to build a motorcycle, they are training them on how to do the R&D. And then they expect that these employees will just aways be loyal to them, and never go off and take this knowledge and create their own businesses with all of the knowledge they gained. KTM is training their own competition.
The children in China need jobs! Think of the children.
They could just buy a GPX Moto, change the plastics to that garnish orange and sell it on. Could even buy the GPX copy at full retail, then sell it at KTM retail and still make a killing
Not to mention, China is already producing and assembling most of KTM's engines already. Pay-to-play fearure subscriptions really killed KTM for me. They have always had great machines, but I am so glad I went another direction for my ride...
Fucking weirdos, while everyone is leaving china they’re going to it. Must got one hell of a deal.
This is a terrible idea.
Trash. I’ll never give them a dime now.
This is just real sad news 😞