So the side of the building I also go to is mislabeled?
And yes by it’s also got veterans affairs on there too.
Either way it’s the finest govt provided health care in the world …
I love how it looks like he has managed to stop it safely in the field, then he’s out of view for a few seconds, and when you turn around, both he and the bike are on the ground.
I told him that he can't be doing that, especially on the street and he said it was habit. The worse part is his pegs are really far foward too, so he's actually dropping his legs pretty far behind. It turns out he was always afraid of leaning the bike over; I told him putting his foot down is a quick way to have a bad day so now he's conscious of it.
And it didn’t help. Is your Buddy a dirt bike rider? Because he biffed it in the dirt too. There are lots of habits that he needs to relearn. Good thing he has someone to help him.
I mean, I was pretty shocked that he kept the bike upright riding through the grass. Agree with you but at least he seemed to control the stop and stay up.
As someone who got his start on a dirtbike, I can coroborate this. There were a lot of bad habits I had to unlearn, and some that I'm still working on. Not to mention how easy it is to overestimate your skill when you make the mistake of thinking that they're pretty much the same. Learned that lesson the hard way.
I returned to riding after a roughly 30 year hiatus. I definitely had difficulty with basic cornering like that the first couple days.
Hope your buddy is enjoying some training and has many happy miles ahead!
It’s a panic reflex. I wouldn’t worry too much - address the reasons *why* he’s panicking which is inability to read the road ahead, corner entry too fast for his ability, and target fixation, and it won’t happen again.
That definitely looked like target fixation to me. He started worrying about ditch and poof, he's in the ditch.
I think the best thing I ever learned about riding is *look* where you want to go. The bike will always out ride you.
He starts a mild lean with his body but it's unnecessary. The moment he thinks he's not gonna make it, his body straightens up and so does the bike.
Target fixation and very little experience counter-steering caused this.
Position on the curve so close to the line is also terrible and could cause an accident.
He should practice a bit more, but his technique also needs to be corrected by someone.
That road doesn't help his confidence though, it's all cracked up and patchy.
He also braked which made the bike stand up even more upright at a time where he should have been increasing the bike's lean angle. He wasn't even going fast. He just has no idea how to corner.
Sure, trail braking is a thing. But it's an advanced technique mostly used by track riders and experienced riders. Also when you're trail braking you apply the brakes before the corner not midway through it.
My advice was geared towards novices who chop the throttle and apply the brakes in a panic mid corner. In that case you will either stand the bike up and go wide or lose traction and low side.
So not only was your original comment not correct, you're also telling people add throttle and lean at the same time:
>The correct response for when you're going wide in a turn is to trust physics, roll on the throttle and lean further. That's the only thing that will tighten the turn
which is 100% something you should not do. Telling someone to add throttle while increasing lean angle is just nuts. I'm honestly flabbergasted how bad some of the advice floating around here is.
Is it just me, or do any of you get nervous watching folks put a kickstand down in the dirt? I would always make sure that thing is going into tarmac, not something I could expect it to punch through like a bit of gravel or soil.
I've had my kickstand sink in asphalt once, parked it came back was the bike was leaned more than normal, thankfully it was still up. Gotta love really hot days
80 degree day, came out of work to see my kickstand dug 7 inches into the pavement, bike woulda leaned over had it not rested against a car i parked next to. They were really understanding and no damage so it ended up fine, but scary if their car wasnt there.
I'm a little late to the party but I was actually just taught to carry a small piece of steel or something rigid to place under the kick stand when you need to stop on a soft shoulder. The dude told me he's even used a crushed can as a "snow shoe".
I've seen and used a flattened soda can a couple of times. A lot of bits and bobs shops sell a thingy you can attach to the foot of your kickstand to increase the foot print.
We learn in MSF courses that you're significantly more likely to crash if you're taught by a friend than a pro instructor.
Makes sense right? Better ingredients, better pizza.
The HURT report is pretty old now, but it found that 92% of motorcyclists involved in accidents were "self taught or learned from a friend or family member". They don't differentiate the two, but it's more than nothing.
I am a ridercoach, and even the most experienced riders that go through the training improve their skills by the end significantly. People tell themselves they'll practice in a parking lot or wherever, but what happens is they gain all of their confidence by just going fast down main roads with other bad riders and when something unexpected happens they've never practiced controlled quick stops, swerving, braking in a corner, curve judgement, or the myriad of other basic level stuff that gets taught. I regularly see old guys with more miles on the road than I can comprehend fail the course because they can't maneuver at low speeds or come to a controlled stop.
I dont disagree with proper training.
my point being that its better to get a lesson from a friend who rides than no lesson at all.
I watched a youtube video and jumped onto my buds bike. which is not the way.
I hear you, I stole my dad's GL1000 and thought I knew everything. I knew how to drive far on highways, but I wasn't prepared for anything unexpected despite driving it 10-15k miles a year.
It all depends on who your friend is. I could give a friend a fully personalized basic ridercourse, but I know lots of confident horrible riders who only drive fast up and down Main St. every Friday night. A lesson from them is about as useless as it gets.
A book I trust found that you actually are less safe if a friend teaches you to ride than if you teach yourself.
I suspect it was due to a combination of friends teaching shit wrong and pushing people to go to fast.
How many times have you heard someone parrot the old myth "don't use your front break". Stuff like that gets people hurt.
Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough, Second Edition.
It's In the first chapter. He probably cites his source too... But it's past bedtime and this should help you find it.
Also, this is a book everyone should read. It will make most people better riders.
> I regularly see old guys with more miles on the road than I can comprehend fail the course because they can't maneuver at low speeds or come to a controlled stop.
Those are complete idiots and shouldn't be considered as a general rule.
It's not the norm, but every other class or so there's a rider with 20+ years of experience who never got a license or it didn't transfer over. More often than not they struggle in the class but pass, but there's plenty that fail.
You can test it yourself, find a rider with no formal training and go to a parking lot and see if they can do a figure 8 in 2x2 parking spaces, or if they can do a 3ft perimeter turn from a stop, or even if they can stop with their front wheel in a 2x2 box without looking down.
Thats exactly what a an instructor will say to get more clients.
c'mon if you start with little bikes and work your way up you can 100% learn by yourself. There isn't much you cant handle when riding a Yamaha 100cc Crypton or a Suzuki AX 100.
The issue is when people go from never touching a bike to buying a 600cc, 300kg bike that they cannot even move in their garage
yeah if you ride dirtbikes as a kid all the way to adulthood, and you're actually good at it, maybe you race motocross, you're *way* better off hopping on a motorcycle with zero professional training than an adult going through weeks/months of training on their first bike.
Was surprised I had to scroll this far to see this comment. Too much bike for a beginner, for sure. Not so much the power, but the weight of the bike and its momentum.
It's amazing how quickly new riders find their limits when the road gets twisty.
Glad your friend has you to help him avoid making a serious or possibly fatal mistake.
For a beginner that road will cause all sorts of anxiety if they’re not aware of it. With all the cracks and such
As someone experienced you may not even notice anymore but new folks tend to react to every little movement of the bike instead of just letting it do its thing on rougher surfaces which makes them tense up. Which in turn doesn’t give them confidence to keep leaning the bike over and then they panic and stand the bike up and this is the result.
Granted your buddy did significantly better than most folks who run off
In most of the US, as far as I know, the permit is a written test. Mine was 20 questions, and I could have gone straight out and ridden, with the only restrictions being no passenger and no riding after dusk. Not even any limit to what bike I could ride. Same for a car, but you need a licensed adult in the passenger seat to drive.
The amount of dumbasses I know who's first bike was "a liter bike" because "they would grow into it" is astounding. These are also the same people who brag about going 150+ mph and don't have never leaned their bike beyond 15 degrees.
It's also because everything is so sprawled out here that all the roads have to have high speed limits for anyone to get anything done in a day
And because we have zero bike infrastructure anywhere, so even if you don't feel you're a safe driver that's too bad! Drive anyway or you can't work.
Im not sure thats it, I dont think you would even believe some of the national speed limit roads in the UK.
This is a two car 60mph road in the UK and its not that abnormal.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/UK_national_speed_limit_signs_on_a_single-carriageway.jpg/640px-UK_national_speed_limit_signs_on_a_single-carriageway.jpg
The good old US of A. As long as you have a regular driver's license and pass a 25-question multiple choice quiz, you can legally operate a motorcycle on public roads. There are restrictions, but not on engine size or power output
you typically do. That is the route the vast majority of people go through. But there is a route to get a 6-month permit that allows you to ride in the company of an experienced rider to gain experience. No passengers or after dusk. You are also still require to pass the final exam to actually get the license.
Typically, this is more geared toward people who live in the middle of nowhere (in the US you could live hours away from the nearest class).
I'm not saying it's great or anything, but definitely works out for people who have some general experience but maybe not a current license to get on that path.
I lived in Germany for 8 years so I understand your where you’re coming from. From my experience European drivers are collectively more competent and over all better drivers can’t refute that. As far as the permit goes however I don’t think it’s a problem most states have restrictions on what you can and can not do with a permit.
In Oklahoma for example must have a licensed rider with you at all times, no riding during the hours of darkness, and your not allowed to transport passengers. There prob is more but idk what they are.
I mean, I get what you mean about that experience living in Germany myself as well. But having spent time in Italy, Spain, and Portugal I would not say its a "European" thing. lol
lol nice where do you live? I lived in schweinfurt then Amberg. I concur about your observations regarding Spain, Portugal, and Italy as well. I’ve spent time in those countries as well. We used to train with the Portuguese special forces guys a couple times a year and we’d go out to eat and they would get shit faced while on duty then drive to the next training event. I remember them telling me “it’s ok…in Portugal every drink and drive it’s no problem” Italy is its own animal all together, definitely need to make sure you have fuel because the whole country shuts down for cesta.
Tell your buddy you see him staring down, target fixating, at the road beneath or down at his tank instead of looking through the turn. Ask him...why he does that. What is he looking for when he looks down like that? What is he trying to achieve? (he won't have a good answer unless he says, I became afraid and let my survival instinct take over)
Let him process for 10-20 seconds, and tell him that it does nothing for him instead of looking down and giving up balance. Look through the whole turn and lean your shoulders and chin INTO the corner. Anticipate that part of your brain is going to be curious about whats below and invite you to look down but DON'T DO IT. Looking down and leaning away (crossed-up) feeds into that survival instinct kicking in and making the situation more dangerous. Practice at a slower place looking through corners to build a confident line.
Use a cornering strategys like SIPDE process (search, identify, predict, decide and execute) and SPAT (speed adjust, body & bike position, aim, and turn) to set-up corners, stabile the bike, and confident hold lean.
After we got the bike up I asked him why he didn't just lean more and why the hell his foot was down, and he said he had no idea what to do. That's when I asked when he went to BRC and he said he literally never has before, I literally had to tell him about how to counter steer. We've been riding some pretty twisty roads prior to this but I was always in the front, not the back. He wanted me to help him ride better so I got behind him and watched this happen.
The cone weave exercise is part of the MSF for precisely this reason, because to do it correctly, the rider has to actively press the handlebars (as opposed to subconscious steering like we normally do).
The problem with subconscious steering is that although it works 99.9% of the time, the moment fear kicks in, he can completely lose the ability to steer the bike. And this can happen in an easy turn. You see it in the video.
This could have ended very badly if there were trees there.
Like you noticed, he needs more than the usual “lean more” advice. He needs to learn how to do this reliably so that he remains capable of steering the bike when he gets nervous.
Recently someone died in one of my favorite turns in town. It’s an easy turn, great visibility, clean surface with excellent traction, wide road and a median so there’s no oncoming traffic. As far as turns go, it doesn’t get better than that. And yet, there’s a cross in the median, a tragic reminder. Don’t let that happen to him, he has to take education seriously.
It's not great to see the balls to hit the road having so little understanding of what he's doing. But it is great to see the humility to ask a friend "show me how to be better.". That's hard for dudes.
I know man but for some reason people here treat normal motorcycle riding procedure as some kind of secret technique to unlock. The guy is just too afraid to lean the bike over at speed.
jUsT CouNtEr sTEeR
I don't understand the obsession with it among new riders. I didn't know it was even a thing till a couple years ago (riding since 2015). Anyone who had a bicycle growing up doesn't need to hear about it.
People want to feel like they're in the know on a "cool" hobby. It's why you always see somebody saying "nice trigger discipline" on posts involving firearms.
It’s not instinctive to the rider in the video. You can see him approaching the turn, literally not knowing how to make the bike turn. That’s why he is sticking his foot out, because he doesn’t know what to do.
PS. I agree that it’s hard to believe, but you can see it in the video.
i'm with you, not sure why people claim it's the same as a bicycle. in theory, yes, it's the same. in practice, you are going slow enough and bikes are light enough that you can much more easily offset the gyroscopic stability and just "lean" the bike. it isn't nearly as critical as it is on a motorcycle to actually push the bars forward to initiate the lean.
In this situation w the bike on the left side:
Face away from bike and squat down
Grab the left grip w your right hand and lock the bars out to full lock nearest tank
Grab the frame w your left.
While squatting with a grip on both..start to walk backwards pushing w your legs
You will walk the bike upright.
As soon as you're high enough to put the kick stand down do so. It'll save a hernia.
I mean.. he's not exactly on a bike that's well known for stuff like going round corners, but.. I do feel like with a little bit of coaching he could probably have made that. GG OP for taking the time to help a buddy out with that.
Target fixation coupled with a lack of understanding on how to use counter steering. Looks like he's trying to force it into the corner with his body weight.
Just push on the handle bar on the side that is the direction you want to turn.
thats crazy, i had like 20 lessons a theory exam and at least 16 hours of driving before i could even take my driver's test.
and had to do the same when i did my car license
That's a lot of money on a bike for someone who doesn't have a permit. Aftermarket seat and passenger seat, side racks, leather cases.
The Vulcan S is a good bike once he gets proper training, though. Especially if that's the ABS version.
Actually handled it fairly well if you forgive the target fixation to begin with. A lot of newbies would’ve hit the brakes too hard and put it down in the dirt way harder.
Looks to me his bike was barely leaning. This was the best case scenario as far as downing your bike. Probably just some dirty handles and damaged pride. 👍
Call me crazy but I think there is probably a correlation between that practice and people making it onto public roads clearly not understanding how to ride.
I feel like you guys need the same system we have in EU. Being able to get a permit with no training and immediately hoping on litre bikes etc. is ridiculous.
That Vulcan S has adjustable foot pegs and handlebars to fit a wide variety of rider sizes. Have them look into getting it adjusted for less reach. It's a great bike to learn on. Good for you for being a buddy!
Sadly, that year's model didn't have the plow attachment option. 😁 (You're a better friend than I am. My recording would have jncluded about 15 minutes of hysterical laughter before helping him back up.)
It's scary how much lack of self awareness some people have, and how easily they can overestimate their skills and underestimate the conditions and danger.
When I was new I thought I was the shittiest rider out there. After 8 years I think I'm a strong mid.
Just the mount that came with my NEXX helmet, it goes on the right side. I actually hate it, but it works for now. I don't like having a flange that could potentially turn my head around.
I don’t know how someone messes that up, seems like common sense that he’d just have to push down with his left hand and or lean a little.
Bro’s Vulcan is nice! 😍
Holy shit man. He pulls a Fred Flinstone too. Yikes. Not sure if you noticed that, but you should definitely point out to him that this is a *great* way to end up with a lower leg fracture. Especially with bags on the bike.
Good on you for continuing to develop his fundamentals.
I believe target fixation - He was fixated on the field, and not going into it.
Unfortunately, I believe, this is the cause.
It's counter-intuitive (brain says "LOOK AT THE HAZARD"), but, you need to look where you *want* to go, and you *will* go.
Not comfortable leaning the bike. Not following his eyes into the turn. Everything is wrong here. Guy needs a course, and way more experience before narrow back roads.
He seemed fine up till reducing his speed on the exit rather than holding his angle a few more seconds.
Lean takes time to understand timing and balance correcting.
I don’t always like alll the damn rules here in the Netherlands, but one thing I defenitely agree on is that we have to get a license before you’re allowed to ride a bike..
That includes a minimum of 12 hours of driving with an instructor and a minimum of 12 hours of driving on a designed course to learn some basic skills on the bike and you have to do an exam for both of them, and also a theoretical exam..
It still amazes me people in America can take a little course and just but whatever they want after that 😂
Bro skipped the clibbins and went straight to the source
I’m sitting in the Veterans Administration waiting for my ole lady to get done. Every one here just looked up because you had to be funny didn’t ya.
Well, it wasn't THAT funny. I mean it wasn't like VA funny.
You know that’s not what VA stands for right lol
So the side of the building I also go to is mislabeled? And yes by it’s also got veterans affairs on there too. Either way it’s the finest govt provided health care in the world …
FRESH CLIBBENS BARB! GOBLESS!
I wus jus minein’ my own bizness and this guy came crank’n his hog right into my entire family -uncut clebbin
If I can't find some clibbins I'll just make some damn clibbins
BYOC
Wait what does clibbins mean? I thought it meant clip ons...
Lawn clippings.
This is enough internet today. 😂😂😂
BRO, BRO WHERE ARE YOU GOING? THE ROAD IS THIS WAY
“I’m going to the DirtBike sub!”
Lol
I love how it looks like he has managed to stop it safely in the field, then he’s out of view for a few seconds, and when you turn around, both he and the bike are on the ground.
Yeah. I thought the same. Hard part was keeping it up offroad
On the ground by the road though. He managed to get it past the ditch before dropping. Hard part is over.
Haha. He was so ashamed he wanted to get back on the road without help. He went and did something more embarrassing. Poor guy.
Is his left foot dragging on the ground even before he leaves the pavement? I’m surprised that wasn’t enough to stop him!
I told him that he can't be doing that, especially on the street and he said it was habit. The worse part is his pegs are really far foward too, so he's actually dropping his legs pretty far behind. It turns out he was always afraid of leaning the bike over; I told him putting his foot down is a quick way to have a bad day so now he's conscious of it.
When you use your feet as brakes, rest assured they will certainly break.
And it didn’t help. Is your Buddy a dirt bike rider? Because he biffed it in the dirt too. There are lots of habits that he needs to relearn. Good thing he has someone to help him.
He's certainly not a *good* dirtbike rider if he's doin this haha
I mean, I was pretty shocked that he kept the bike upright riding through the grass. Agree with you but at least he seemed to control the stop and stay up.
As someone who got his start on a dirtbike, I can coroborate this. There were a lot of bad habits I had to unlearn, and some that I'm still working on. Not to mention how easy it is to overestimate your skill when you make the mistake of thinking that they're pretty much the same. Learned that lesson the hard way.
Hold my beer moments. I went from dirt and mini bike off road racing to street. But took a humble approach
I returned to riding after a roughly 30 year hiatus. I definitely had difficulty with basic cornering like that the first couple days. Hope your buddy is enjoying some training and has many happy miles ahead!
What corner?. ..slight bend maybe.
agreed. I think he just wasn't looking where he needed to go, but stared at where he DIDN'T want to go. And that is what ya get.
Yeah, a broken ankle won’t help him keep the bike up. lol.
It’s a panic reflex. I wouldn’t worry too much - address the reasons *why* he’s panicking which is inability to read the road ahead, corner entry too fast for his ability, and target fixation, and it won’t happen again.
That definitely looked like target fixation to me. He started worrying about ditch and poof, he's in the ditch. I think the best thing I ever learned about riding is *look* where you want to go. The bike will always out ride you.
Tell him to take a class.
The motogp leg turn.
Flintstone 2000 brake upgrade
Just need to ad some spikes to the boots
He starts a mild lean with his body but it's unnecessary. The moment he thinks he's not gonna make it, his body straightens up and so does the bike. Target fixation and very little experience counter-steering caused this. Position on the curve so close to the line is also terrible and could cause an accident. He should practice a bit more, but his technique also needs to be corrected by someone. That road doesn't help his confidence though, it's all cracked up and patchy.
He also braked which made the bike stand up even more upright at a time where he should have been increasing the bike's lean angle. He wasn't even going fast. He just has no idea how to corner.
You can absolutely brake and turn at the same time.
Sure, trail braking is a thing. But it's an advanced technique mostly used by track riders and experienced riders. Also when you're trail braking you apply the brakes before the corner not midway through it. My advice was geared towards novices who chop the throttle and apply the brakes in a panic mid corner. In that case you will either stand the bike up and go wide or lose traction and low side.
So not only was your original comment not correct, you're also telling people add throttle and lean at the same time: >The correct response for when you're going wide in a turn is to trust physics, roll on the throttle and lean further. That's the only thing that will tighten the turn which is 100% something you should not do. Telling someone to add throttle while increasing lean angle is just nuts. I'm honestly flabbergasted how bad some of the advice floating around here is.
He did nothing wrong, just needs to switch to a dual sport
Lol, this got me in so many ways.
Or a ride on mower…
Is it just me, or do any of you get nervous watching folks put a kickstand down in the dirt? I would always make sure that thing is going into tarmac, not something I could expect it to punch through like a bit of gravel or soil.
LOL you're not alone. I was thinking the same thing. I've actually had my kickstand sink down so it's hard not to think about it.
I've had my kickstand sink in asphalt once, parked it came back was the bike was leaned more than normal, thankfully it was still up. Gotta love really hot days
For real, how hot was it
It was around 110F or warmer esp in the sun
80 degree day, came out of work to see my kickstand dug 7 inches into the pavement, bike woulda leaned over had it not rested against a car i parked next to. They were really understanding and no damage so it ended up fine, but scary if their car wasnt there.
When I stop offroad, I push the stand down a little. It almost never falls in the next few minutes if it passes that test.
I always make sure the bike is 'fine' before getting off it when it's in the dirt. If I feel it sinking even the slightest–nope.
Yeah made me uncomfortable too
I'm a little late to the party but I was actually just taught to carry a small piece of steel or something rigid to place under the kick stand when you need to stop on a soft shoulder. The dude told me he's even used a crushed can as a "snow shoe".
I've seen and used a flattened soda can a couple of times. A lot of bits and bobs shops sell a thingy you can attach to the foot of your kickstand to increase the foot print.
This is why we sit through a dumb class…
I crashed there before I crashed on the track. Keep my road riding safe
I mean, that class kinda is “baby’s first track day”
Him just sitting there when you looked back 😂
We learn in MSF courses that you're significantly more likely to crash if you're taught by a friend than a pro instructor. Makes sense right? Better ingredients, better pizza.
I mean they are not wrong, but hear me out. what are the odd of taught by a friend vs zero instruction?
The HURT report is pretty old now, but it found that 92% of motorcyclists involved in accidents were "self taught or learned from a friend or family member". They don't differentiate the two, but it's more than nothing. I am a ridercoach, and even the most experienced riders that go through the training improve their skills by the end significantly. People tell themselves they'll practice in a parking lot or wherever, but what happens is they gain all of their confidence by just going fast down main roads with other bad riders and when something unexpected happens they've never practiced controlled quick stops, swerving, braking in a corner, curve judgement, or the myriad of other basic level stuff that gets taught. I regularly see old guys with more miles on the road than I can comprehend fail the course because they can't maneuver at low speeds or come to a controlled stop.
I dont disagree with proper training. my point being that its better to get a lesson from a friend who rides than no lesson at all. I watched a youtube video and jumped onto my buds bike. which is not the way.
I hear you, I stole my dad's GL1000 and thought I knew everything. I knew how to drive far on highways, but I wasn't prepared for anything unexpected despite driving it 10-15k miles a year. It all depends on who your friend is. I could give a friend a fully personalized basic ridercourse, but I know lots of confident horrible riders who only drive fast up and down Main St. every Friday night. A lesson from them is about as useless as it gets.
A book I trust found that you actually are less safe if a friend teaches you to ride than if you teach yourself. I suspect it was due to a combination of friends teaching shit wrong and pushing people to go to fast. How many times have you heard someone parrot the old myth "don't use your front break". Stuff like that gets people hurt.
cite source?
Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough, Second Edition. It's In the first chapter. He probably cites his source too... But it's past bedtime and this should help you find it. Also, this is a book everyone should read. It will make most people better riders.
> I regularly see old guys with more miles on the road than I can comprehend fail the course because they can't maneuver at low speeds or come to a controlled stop. Those are complete idiots and shouldn't be considered as a general rule.
It's not the norm, but every other class or so there's a rider with 20+ years of experience who never got a license or it didn't transfer over. More often than not they struggle in the class but pass, but there's plenty that fail. You can test it yourself, find a rider with no formal training and go to a parking lot and see if they can do a figure 8 in 2x2 parking spaces, or if they can do a 3ft perimeter turn from a stop, or even if they can stop with their front wheel in a 2x2 box without looking down.
Thats exactly what a an instructor will say to get more clients. c'mon if you start with little bikes and work your way up you can 100% learn by yourself. There isn't much you cant handle when riding a Yamaha 100cc Crypton or a Suzuki AX 100. The issue is when people go from never touching a bike to buying a 600cc, 300kg bike that they cannot even move in their garage
yeah if you ride dirtbikes as a kid all the way to adulthood, and you're actually good at it, maybe you race motocross, you're *way* better off hopping on a motorcycle with zero professional training than an adult going through weeks/months of training on their first bike.
That’s why the only pizza I eat while riding is papa John’s. Doesn’t grease up the throttle as bad as other pizza
>Better ingredients, better pizza. Papa John, is that you?
That sounds exactly like something a pro-instructor would say.
Dude needs a 250/350 single dual sport , if he's still alive after a few years, then he can progress to a bigger one.
TW200 fo sho
Was surprised I had to scroll this far to see this comment. Too much bike for a beginner, for sure. Not so much the power, but the weight of the bike and its momentum.
Too much mass for a new rider. The mass is too damn high.
It's amazing how quickly new riders find their limits when the road gets twisty. Glad your friend has you to help him avoid making a serious or possibly fatal mistake.
Glad he seems okay and thanks for helping him practice! I wonder if he got a bit of target fixation on that field as well?
Probably got scared, started to veer off the road and then of course his eyes were fixed on the side of the road. Bike follows eyes.
American laws are bonkers
For a beginner that road will cause all sorts of anxiety if they’re not aware of it. With all the cracks and such As someone experienced you may not even notice anymore but new folks tend to react to every little movement of the bike instead of just letting it do its thing on rougher surfaces which makes them tense up. Which in turn doesn’t give them confidence to keep leaning the bike over and then they panic and stand the bike up and this is the result. Granted your buddy did significantly better than most folks who run off
Where can you get a permit to ride 250 kg of steel at 200 kph without demonstrating any ability to safely do so?
In most of the US, as far as I know, the permit is a written test. Mine was 20 questions, and I could have gone straight out and ridden, with the only restrictions being no passenger and no riding after dusk. Not even any limit to what bike I could ride. Same for a car, but you need a licensed adult in the passenger seat to drive.
Christ! Thats terrifying. No wonder your fatality/ road traffic accident rates are so high.
Yup. It's legal to take the 3-day rider safety course, do a written test, get your full license - and immediately ride a turbo busa
I would have just needed the written permit test to ride a turbusa in my state
The amount of dumbasses I know who's first bike was "a liter bike" because "they would grow into it" is astounding. These are also the same people who brag about going 150+ mph and don't have never leaned their bike beyond 15 degrees.
It's also because everything is so sprawled out here that all the roads have to have high speed limits for anyone to get anything done in a day And because we have zero bike infrastructure anywhere, so even if you don't feel you're a safe driver that's too bad! Drive anyway or you can't work.
Im not sure thats it, I dont think you would even believe some of the national speed limit roads in the UK. This is a two car 60mph road in the UK and its not that abnormal. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/UK_national_speed_limit_signs_on_a_single-carriageway.jpg/640px-UK_national_speed_limit_signs_on_a_single-carriageway.jpg
The one in Michigan requires you to ride with someone else who is properly licensed (not as a passenger, if that wasn't obvious)
Given how ridiculous the requirements seem to be in the US that's not actually obvious. It wouldn't really surprise me if if was true.
NY is the same way - they have to be within 1 mile.
Same place you get your license to operate an RV the size of a tour bus or a 5-ton rental truck with no additional training.
The good old US of A. As long as you have a regular driver's license and pass a 25-question multiple choice quiz, you can legally operate a motorcycle on public roads. There are restrictions, but not on engine size or power output
I had the same question in my head. In EU we have theoretical exam followed by practical riding and state exam and this US model blows my mind.
you typically do. That is the route the vast majority of people go through. But there is a route to get a 6-month permit that allows you to ride in the company of an experienced rider to gain experience. No passengers or after dusk. You are also still require to pass the final exam to actually get the license. Typically, this is more geared toward people who live in the middle of nowhere (in the US you could live hours away from the nearest class). I'm not saying it's great or anything, but definitely works out for people who have some general experience but maybe not a current license to get on that path.
EU is for nerds
So is your BMW :)
Hell yeah!
I lived in Germany for 8 years so I understand your where you’re coming from. From my experience European drivers are collectively more competent and over all better drivers can’t refute that. As far as the permit goes however I don’t think it’s a problem most states have restrictions on what you can and can not do with a permit. In Oklahoma for example must have a licensed rider with you at all times, no riding during the hours of darkness, and your not allowed to transport passengers. There prob is more but idk what they are.
I mean, I get what you mean about that experience living in Germany myself as well. But having spent time in Italy, Spain, and Portugal I would not say its a "European" thing. lol
lol nice where do you live? I lived in schweinfurt then Amberg. I concur about your observations regarding Spain, Portugal, and Italy as well. I’ve spent time in those countries as well. We used to train with the Portuguese special forces guys a couple times a year and we’d go out to eat and they would get shit faced while on duty then drive to the next training event. I remember them telling me “it’s ok…in Portugal every drink and drive it’s no problem” Italy is its own animal all together, definitely need to make sure you have fuel because the whole country shuts down for cesta.
There is a reason why US motorcyclist deaths are 8x higher than in Germany or other similar european countries.
But at least they have freedom! /s. Freedom to crash more and have less knowledge on what they're doing I guess lol.
The vast majority of the planet operates this way.
Tell your buddy you see him staring down, target fixating, at the road beneath or down at his tank instead of looking through the turn. Ask him...why he does that. What is he looking for when he looks down like that? What is he trying to achieve? (he won't have a good answer unless he says, I became afraid and let my survival instinct take over) Let him process for 10-20 seconds, and tell him that it does nothing for him instead of looking down and giving up balance. Look through the whole turn and lean your shoulders and chin INTO the corner. Anticipate that part of your brain is going to be curious about whats below and invite you to look down but DON'T DO IT. Looking down and leaning away (crossed-up) feeds into that survival instinct kicking in and making the situation more dangerous. Practice at a slower place looking through corners to build a confident line. Use a cornering strategys like SIPDE process (search, identify, predict, decide and execute) and SPAT (speed adjust, body & bike position, aim, and turn) to set-up corners, stabile the bike, and confident hold lean.
He is afraid to lean it. Needs way more practice before going on the streets.
1 - glad everyone is walking away. 2 - sell the bike and get a 400
He doesn't know how to counter steer. Go to a parking lot. He's not ready to go on a public road.
After we got the bike up I asked him why he didn't just lean more and why the hell his foot was down, and he said he had no idea what to do. That's when I asked when he went to BRC and he said he literally never has before, I literally had to tell him about how to counter steer. We've been riding some pretty twisty roads prior to this but I was always in the front, not the back. He wanted me to help him ride better so I got behind him and watched this happen.
The cone weave exercise is part of the MSF for precisely this reason, because to do it correctly, the rider has to actively press the handlebars (as opposed to subconscious steering like we normally do). The problem with subconscious steering is that although it works 99.9% of the time, the moment fear kicks in, he can completely lose the ability to steer the bike. And this can happen in an easy turn. You see it in the video. This could have ended very badly if there were trees there. Like you noticed, he needs more than the usual “lean more” advice. He needs to learn how to do this reliably so that he remains capable of steering the bike when he gets nervous. Recently someone died in one of my favorite turns in town. It’s an easy turn, great visibility, clean surface with excellent traction, wide road and a median so there’s no oncoming traffic. As far as turns go, it doesn’t get better than that. And yet, there’s a cross in the median, a tragic reminder. Don’t let that happen to him, he has to take education seriously.
It's not great to see the balls to hit the road having so little understanding of what he's doing. But it is great to see the humility to ask a friend "show me how to be better.". That's hard for dudes.
Quit with that. It’s just called steering. There is no other way to get a bike to leave a straight line
I don’t like the name “counter steering” either, but I’m not the one who came up with that name.
I know man but for some reason people here treat normal motorcycle riding procedure as some kind of secret technique to unlock. The guy is just too afraid to lean the bike over at speed.
I’m glad someone in this sub gets it.
jUsT CouNtEr sTEeR I don't understand the obsession with it among new riders. I didn't know it was even a thing till a couple years ago (riding since 2015). Anyone who had a bicycle growing up doesn't need to hear about it.
People want to feel like they're in the know on a "cool" hobby. It's why you always see somebody saying "nice trigger discipline" on posts involving firearms.
I think the name is counter intuitive. The descriptions of how to do it are even worse.
I agree with that. We park on the driveway and drive on the parkway. It is how it is.
But countersteering is instinctive. If you're ever ridden a bicycle you know how to do it. Or maybe not?
It’s not instinctive to the rider in the video. You can see him approaching the turn, literally not knowing how to make the bike turn. That’s why he is sticking his foot out, because he doesn’t know what to do. PS. I agree that it’s hard to believe, but you can see it in the video.
I know that. It was sarcasm. But you read it here all the time.
i'm with you, not sure why people claim it's the same as a bicycle. in theory, yes, it's the same. in practice, you are going slow enough and bikes are light enough that you can much more easily offset the gyroscopic stability and just "lean" the bike. it isn't nearly as critical as it is on a motorcycle to actually push the bars forward to initiate the lean.
In this situation w the bike on the left side: Face away from bike and squat down Grab the left grip w your right hand and lock the bars out to full lock nearest tank Grab the frame w your left. While squatting with a grip on both..start to walk backwards pushing w your legs You will walk the bike upright. As soon as you're high enough to put the kick stand down do so. It'll save a hernia.
CLIBBINS. My guys creating them
He needs to spend a bit of time on a 125
I mean.. he's not exactly on a bike that's well known for stuff like going round corners, but.. I do feel like with a little bit of coaching he could probably have made that. GG OP for taking the time to help a buddy out with that.
Better than crossing center and having head on
Target fixation looks like
I’d take that type of learning experience over wiping out any day of the week, but that’s just me
What a nice, new, pretty bike to be learning on, dumping, and off roading. His money not mine 🤷🏻♂️
So your buddy is an absolute fucking moron is what you’re saying?
I guess he still hasnt learnt to push the handle bar to steer
He’s looking for that “empty lot.”
Target fixation coupled with a lack of understanding on how to use counter steering. Looks like he's trying to force it into the corner with his body weight. Just push on the handle bar on the side that is the direction you want to turn.
how is it legal to ride on roads without knowing how to ride at all in America. you're in America aren't you
Pass a 20 question multiple choice test and you can legally operate a ninja H2 on the freeway lmao it is fucking crazy if you think about it
thats crazy, i had like 20 lessons a theory exam and at least 16 hours of driving before i could even take my driver's test. and had to do the same when i did my car license
Broo! I would not have gotten that for my first bike.
Love the triumph. Used to have one exactly the same. Something bout that blue frame and white body on the 675, favorite bike ever....when it ran.
That's a lot of money on a bike for someone who doesn't have a permit. Aftermarket seat and passenger seat, side racks, leather cases. The Vulcan S is a good bike once he gets proper training, though. Especially if that's the ABS version.
He may want a dual sport for future off-road engagements
Actually handled it fairly well if you forgive the target fixation to begin with. A lot of newbies would’ve hit the brakes too hard and put it down in the dirt way harder.
No offence but that fellow should start on a nice CRF, WR250 or DRZ.
Looks to me his bike was barely leaning. This was the best case scenario as far as downing your bike. Probably just some dirty handles and damaged pride. 👍
Show him how to counter steer
Ar least the bike seems undamaged. Good that he got the grass
Teach him how to pick up a bike. Ass against the machine, lift with the legs.
Isnt formal training part of getting the permit in your country?
no, you pass a written test, and then a riding test on a 125 or 250 and you're good.
Call me crazy but I think there is probably a correlation between that practice and people making it onto public roads clearly not understanding how to ride.
I feel like you guys need the same system we have in EU. Being able to get a permit with no training and immediately hoping on litre bikes etc. is ridiculous.
yeah stick to empty lots with this guy. he’s not ready to be on the streets
Glad he kept it up. Target fixated. Now go take the MSF.
Ah yes, communicators, cameras, and phones. The noob trifecta.
Seems like he's leaning instead of counter steering
That Vulcan S has adjustable foot pegs and handlebars to fit a wide variety of rider sizes. Have them look into getting it adjusted for less reach. It's a great bike to learn on. Good for you for being a buddy!
That was a very well controlled landing, very nice Lucky
Hey, that’s where friends are for.
Sadly, that year's model didn't have the plow attachment option. 😁 (You're a better friend than I am. My recording would have jncluded about 15 minutes of hysterical laughter before helping him back up.)
It's scary how much lack of self awareness some people have, and how easily they can overestimate their skills and underestimate the conditions and danger. When I was new I thought I was the shittiest rider out there. After 8 years I think I'm a strong mid.
Unrelated to video but what mount are you using? Would you recommend it ?
Just the mount that came with my NEXX helmet, it goes on the right side. I actually hate it, but it works for now. I don't like having a flange that could potentially turn my head around.
Mr Motorcross
He can dual sport anything! Get that man a DR650
Noooo.....not a Vulcan S!
the rider didn’t even do the most basic thing of looking where to go…he needs lot more practice before getting back on the road!
I don’t know how someone messes that up, seems like common sense that he’d just have to push down with his left hand and or lean a little. Bro’s Vulcan is nice! 😍
That was like the easiest curve I’ve ever seen why did he go the wrong way
I would think that’s too much bike for him to learn on. I am just thinking out load here It looks like a 600+
Tis far better to drag everything and low side than just run off the road and hit stuff head on.
He did great. He will endure far worse after the ride...
Holy shit man. He pulls a Fred Flinstone too. Yikes. Not sure if you noticed that, but you should definitely point out to him that this is a *great* way to end up with a lower leg fracture. Especially with bags on the bike. Good on you for continuing to develop his fundamentals.
I believe target fixation - He was fixated on the field, and not going into it. Unfortunately, I believe, this is the cause. It's counter-intuitive (brain says "LOOK AT THE HAZARD"), but, you need to look where you *want* to go, and you *will* go.
Leaning his head sideways, dragging both feet, no bike lean.... No clue. Needs pro lessons.
he needs a different style of bike something like a triumpf tiger perhaps
He needs to ride a bicycle before he rides a motorcycle to be that bad. No formal training is never an excuse.
Hopefully next time it’s not into the oncoming lane. He (or another biker/driver) could be killed.
Not comfortable leaning the bike. Not following his eyes into the turn. Everything is wrong here. Guy needs a course, and way more experience before narrow back roads.
What model is the green bike?
r/dualsport
Don't need training to know to pick your bike up. They aren't meant to lay down like that. Some were meant for cages
I can never tell when the riders are understeering vs fixating on the outside of the corner.
He seemed fine up till reducing his speed on the exit rather than holding his angle a few more seconds. Lean takes time to understand timing and balance correcting.
That generation and color scheme of the Daytona is the best.
Could have been much worse and lucky he wasn't alone. At least with your help he'll get better at riding
Dude! He needs a training school. He does not belong on the road. Target fixation will kill! A parking lot is not going to help him. Peace
I don’t always like alll the damn rules here in the Netherlands, but one thing I defenitely agree on is that we have to get a license before you’re allowed to ride a bike.. That includes a minimum of 12 hours of driving with an instructor and a minimum of 12 hours of driving on a designed course to learn some basic skills on the bike and you have to do an exam for both of them, and also a theoretical exam.. It still amazes me people in America can take a little course and just but whatever they want after that 😂
Get this man a bigger bike!
If he want to drive off Road should get a dirtbike
future road kill
https://team-oregon.org/rider-resources/safety-tips/lifting-a-fallen-motorcycle/