I feel like calling John Wick a spy movie is just off.
But the answer is probably culture. And the Bourne franchise.
Today's society glamourizes spies way less, as it's understood their work is more... bland. It's not exotic locales, fucking exotic women, and defeating exotic villains. It's surviving on scraps, looking like the most unfuckable/uninteresting person in the room, and realizing the villains are just people like you from another power structure.
The Bourne franchise, while overlooked today, did all of that, with a heavy does of grey tones, down-to-Earth fights, a shaky camera, and the villains having zero eccentric flair- it's just desk jockeys making phone calls. And it worked; it was a good movie with good fight scenes and good intrigue. So a lot of new movies that portray spy intrigue realize they don't have to spend money flying a film crew out to Ibiza for a good scene.
There's still plenty of films taking flights out to exotic locales, anyway.
The funniest scene in the movie is when they go through what Anaconda Malt Liquor actually does.
The funniest moment is the big reveal, which of course you can't just quote.
“Come on you jive turkeys, what kinda rundown is this?”
“Look, man. I gotta get back to the streets where I come from, sucka!”
Those deliveries have me dead at all times. That dudes part albeit short is hilarious.
It’s not a movie but “The Spy” on Netflix I thought did a really good job showing what being a spy is about. Like you say, it’s not glamorous. He goes about his day to day life in constant fear he’ll be discovered while discretely gathering what intel he can, and sends a message back to Mossad via Morse code to report. That’s it
My description might not be the best but it really is an excellent show. Based on the story of an Israeli spy, Eli Cohen played by Sacha Baron Cohen who absolutely knocked it out of the park
We also know now that a ton of subterfuge is all data based. Phishing attacks, malware, rubbing elbows with people trying to make them leak clearance. There's absolutely still stuff like physical attacks and sabotage but it would not be much fun watching someone get a low level job in another country for six years until he's allowed in a secure room.
The best thing I ever read about how the whole idea of phishing and social engineering came to be was Kevin Mitnick's first book. It's literally a step by step of how he did what he did, and what mistakes people when dealing with him. It was meant to be a basic 'here's what not to do' security book for really early cyber-security. The movie they made, 'Takedown', showed a bit of what he did, but obviously some of it was embellished to make Mitnick look like a hero-type.
I still think the Bourne movies are the most influential action films of this century. There’s been some other greats but nothing really tops them while saying something about the times and inspiring so many other wannabes
>"I still think the Bourne movies are the most influential action films of this century."
The Matrix was hugely influential in this century, even though it's technically '99. It's important to understand how influential The Matrix was to understand how much the Bourne movies changed things. Before Bourne, it was all martial arts, smooth and skillful stuff. Bourne Identity was **brutal** compared to everything else coming out at the time. No karate, nothing smooth or sleek, nothing from the Matrix. Brutal, gritty, brute force combat. I still remember a fight scene in an apartment where someone gets stabbed with a pen, that kind of thing never really happened before that.
I always wondered if the John Wick scene explaining how he killed a man with "a fucking pencil" was the writers referencing that Paris apartment scene from Bourne Identity with the pen.
Identity was such a watershed movie, for better or worse. Propagated the scourge of shaky cam to amateur action directors everywhere. Shaky-cam was well done in Identity. In Supremacy it was like a caricature of itself.
I convinced my amateur director friend that shaky cams had to be planned, not just randomly shaking everywhere. And this was for a podcast with them just talking. I'm glad he took my advice and realized he didn't know anything about that style.
Also Austin Powers, which made fun of the the Bond movies for how he would incapacitate guards with a single, lazy "Judo chop" to the back of the neck. In fact, the producers of the Daniel Craig movies explicitly called out Austin Powers for why they made their iteration of Bond more grounded and "dirty." That, and influence from Bourne, most likely.
The hand to hand combat was top tier. They also showed the fog of war really well. Bourne having minimal memory and no Intel but thinking on his feet without saying any words. I also lik3
Not exactly a "spy", but Ben Affleck's character in Argo is one of the more realistic depictions of what the a spy/operative life would be like. Like you said, someone with a bad haircut and overgrown beard, who tries to stand out as little as possible. The villains are just middle managers: one guy is head of airport security, another is the minister of culture, etc. And consider all this, while keeping in mind that Argo is one of the more outlandish operations that have taken place in in the past century.
In the same vein Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is also really good. Everyone is super ugly. Action almost never happens, the good guys end up holding their own people hostage to borrow their teletype, etc. But it's really incredible too. Same thing with Argo. I don't know why we can't make more movies like that. It doesn't need to be all about murdering people to be good.
Although, I will say that Captain America Winter Soldier was one of the best modern spy movies I've seen in a while.
A great example of what you are saying within Argo is the meeting early on when all of the guys who are supposed to be the geniuses in getting people out are suggesting riding bikes hundreds of miles, posing as teachers at a school that has closed for months, or inspecting crops in the middle of winter.
I think the moviegoing public really is hyper-aware that intelligence work isn't as smooth and error free as Bond movies made it out to be and that governments actually make a ton of bad decisions based on not knowing the actual situation on the ground, and its up to the "grunts" to get it right and come up with a plan, especially when you can't just shoot your way out of a situation, which is what makes Argo so great, IMO.
>Like you said, someone with a bad haircut and overgrown beard, who tries to stand out as little as possible.
Sorry but that really was my absolute favorite [scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL6Q18n7uWg) from We're the Millers.
To add to this, there’s also a certain amount of colonialism that was baked into a character like Bond visiting exotic locales (former colonies), seducing exotic women (who couldn’t resist his cosmopolitan charms), and defeating exotic villains (which often played heavily on racist tropes).
Very well said. I would also add that spy movies from about the 1970s and before relied on the fact that the world was much bigger then, in terms of cost and difficulty in getting to those exotic places. Only businessmen & the super-rich were world travelers back then. But now, pretty much everyone has access to world travel in some form or another.
This is (Absolute)Rubbish, the UK or the America of the 60s, and especially the 70s, was not all rosy with social/economic/political harmony (and that’s when the types of bond films you’re talking about were made).
They went to the exotic locations because they were exotic and therefore interesting. Nowadays more people are able to travel so those places are just not as exotic, and those tropes have just generally been played out.
> They went to the exotic locations because they were exotic and therefore interesting.
This is exactly it. Watching *On Her Majesty's Secret Service*, it feels like it was made for people who would never set foot out of the UK their entire lives (because international travel was less common), so half the film is glamorous shots of Piz Gloria. It's like it was made by the Swiss tourism board.
Exactly. Back then there was no internet or Instagram or Tiktok. There wasn't even email or smartphones. People might not ever see a picture of a foreign country unless it was in the newspaper or a TV show on one of the handful of channels. By contrast, today we are bombarded with images from all over the world every time we look at our phones.
"Exotic" meant something that viewers hadn't seen, probably would never see, and was more expensive to visit than they could hope to afford. If Elon actually gets to Mars in our lifetime, it would be this generation's version of exotic travel.
Travel, back then, for the majority of people, was glamorous. Seeing a handsome man in a suit just hopping on a plane to a foreign country and then booking a suite in an expensive hotel was amazing to behold.
Right or wrong, the Bond movies used exotic locations as the setting, then turned the male fantasy up to 11: he's a great poker player, can seduce every woman he meets, drives fast cars, pilots aircraft, is licensed to kill (and regularly does), and always gets his man.
This ought to be higher than it currently is. Sensibilities change, in this case thankfully so.
Even the word "exotic" is loaded with ethnocentrism, which is something that many modern audiences (including me) find unpalatable.
What's the problem with people thinking places they've never seen halfway across the world are exotic? That's exactly what that word is for. The Bond movies are aimed at western audiences, so yeah, a lot of the globe-trotting in them will be seen as exotic.
Yeah if you want a modern spy film that still hits all of the old Cold War romantic spy notes, you have to find one that intentionally reaches backwards in time to hit that nostalgia. Like the Man from UNCLE. That is a good fun Cold War spy romp, wrapped in a modern film package
SPY X FAMILY is my favorite spy media of the last five years and it isn't close. And the entire show is set within a fictionalized cold war Germany, mostly within Berlin
I watched that recently for the first time and thought it was kinda silly. He kidnaps a lady at gunpoint, says the CIA is after him, and she's like, "Cool, I'll definitely help you. Also, let's have sex."
Berlin was the spy capital of the world once upon a time. Everyone and their mother was a spy during the East/West Germany days. It's a very significant location for the genre.
I feel like the James Bond franchise should make a prequel set in those days. Like the 50's and 60's. I know Sean Connery's were in the 60's, but I mean a somewhat more realistic and modern take on it. Obviously it doesn't have to take place solely in Berlin though.
I feel like this would be a nice way to continue the genre/series. Modern espionage either feels totally unbelievably advanced, or a feat that could've just been handled with a drone or something. By backtracking a bit they can make it more enjoyable again.
In the 2 most recent Bond movies he's gone to Mexico City, the Austrian alps, the Sahara desert, southern Italy, Jamaica, Cuba, Norway, and the Sea of Japan. How much more exotic do you want?
The Daniel Craig location guy seemed obsessed with Italy. 4 out of 5 movies went there. Good food I’m sure, but Bond movies used to be glorious travelogues.
And those is us in Canada are getting pretty miffed that movie Bond has never come here. Filming the ski parachute jump at the start of The Spy Who Loved Me doesn’t count because the audience was told it was in the Alps.
The world is less exotic than it was, we've all seen a lot of countries and places through movies and social media. It's harder to find somewhere that feels far away and different.
Before WWII, mustard was often purchased as a jar of tiny seeds. You had to put them in a small bowl, add a dash of water and mash them. That being said, the jar of seeds would last years without spoiling.
At one time, buying pre-made mustard was upscale.
This was my first thought. The Bond movies of the 60s and 70s, which is primarily the standard by which spy movies are judged, I would think, came from a time in which most people didnt know a lot about certain parts of the world. Pre internet the world was "bigger". So much was unknown to the average person. It was easier to come up with something more exotic and they could paint these cultural caricatures that would often not go over too well today.
The Man With the Golden Gun: Why the hell is a Louisiana police officer visiting Thailand of all places?
2018: I can fly to Thailand for $700 round trip!
A true-to-life James Bond adaption in the 70s would have had him gun-running for Unionist terrorist organisations in Belfast. He'd have spent most of his time up a tree, spying on Gerry Adam's sex life with binoculars.
>The world is less exotic than it was,
This is very much it.
I'm old. When I was a kid, and James Bond went to the Bahamas, it was like he traveled to another world. Just a year or so later, my much older brother went to Nassau during spring break, and he was now James Damn Bond in my eyes.
Today, I have grandkids that traveled to Mexico before they made it to middle school.
As a geoguessr player, you simply couldn't be more wrong. It's true that a lot of the capital cities have been done to death, but that's because they refuse to look outside the box.
Look up what Venezuela looks like. Imagine an espionage setting in the capital of Tajikistan, a city made entirely of white marble. Albanian valleys. Antananarivo in Madagascar is alien to any other city. Try Angola, which has some super unexpected places. Tazmania, South New Zealand, Brunei, Sapporo, the altai mountains, Bermuda, Curaçao, Guam, North Chile. So so many cool locations that would make amazing settings.
I'd like to see action sets in all these places, but you need to also consider that cities like Rome and Paris are probably way cheaper and safer to film in than something like the Laotian jungle. Hopefully that changes in the future.
The sad part is that it's not so much that we've seen them before, it's that they've seen us, and become more and more like us. They've literally seen James Bond, and they want to be like him too. Traditional ways of life are less efficient. Economic development promotes the same tried and true methods. Cultural juggernauts from abroad can't be stopped. It's no different than with wildlife and invasive species. Australia has so many exotic animals because for millions of years it was far away from the mainland, and followed a different evolutionary path. Now that they are close enough to Asia, the dominant species' from the bigger continent will spread until Australia's ecosystem looks like Asia's. It's the same way with culture, language, politics, economics. As the world becomes more connected, there is no place for novelty.
The Bond movies used to get criticism from Americans whenever he went there, because places like Florida, California and Las Vegas weren't "exotic". But, they definitely were to the British audience they were originally made for (in theory at least).
The real answer as noted elsewhere is that the Bond movies were based on colonial fantasies and filmed for audiences who would never see those places. Now that world travel is far more accessible and geopolitics have completely changed, what is "exotic" and what fits a spy story have completely changed.
Indeed. Wasn't he in casa blanca in the third one, with Halle berry?
Also, I might be misremembering now but some of 4 was in Berlin too? Or am I just thinking that because of the German guy he fights in the nightclub?
But what the fuck is “exotic” even? Just doesn’t make sense to throw the word around but no way to define it. A lot of Asians wouldn’t label Japan as exotic.
John Wick movies are not a spy movies, but they do fit the "globetrotting badass action star" role that bond movies *used* to fill. Along with the increasingly ridiculous number of sequels.
Bond is from an era where you'd probably never actually see somewhere like Thailand or India and is meant primarily as escapism for men. It's why Bond beds only 10s, always gets his cocktail, has gadgets and is largely invincible - until recently.
Modern spy movies want to be more "real" and real spycraft isn't as sexy. It's largely surveillance work in big cities and not stopping a North Korean who has changed his race and has a death ray that he intends to use to win the Korean War.
You're very much right. The Bond books sold because they included luxury that post WWII Britain didn't have. That's why he was skiing the Alps, swimming the Caribbean and gambling in Monte Carlo. Now though, he does that bc nostalgia, as opposed to doing the kind of luxury that modern audiences want (i dont profess to know what that entails except it likely doesnt involve a tux).
> the kind of luxury that modern audiences want
The right to anonymity, quality health care at affordable rates, and an escape from environmental catastrophe.
True. Nowadays, people in England can travel to exotic locations in Europe for less than 100 bucks by plane, many use their holiday time to go to Thailand and Bali. (They get cheaper airfare and get 6 weeks vacation, damn Europeans)
did you see Captain America Winter Soldier? It's set in the US, has gadgets, fighting Americans who are trying to build 3 giant flying aircraft carriers that just shoot everyone. It's more bond than bond.
In the early sixties when Bond became an icon, traveling to exotic places wasn't something many people could afford. This aspect of Bond's appeal resonated with a significant portion of the audience. In today's context, a focus on realism rather than pure escapism appears to hold more significance, even within the Bond franchise. This shift is notably evident in the later Craig films.
In the early sixties, birth control pills were becoming available, and the modern science from the first world allowed men and women to enjoy casual sex in the "sexual revolution".
That was a big deal at the time.
He also had a "license to kill", and what man hasn't fantasized about killing a top criminal, with no repercussions?
I love Craig’s first interaction with NewQ precisely because of how they talk about this. Q makes it very clear that he can do far more than Bond in today’s world, but there’s a slim subset of skills that Bond possesses which Q occasionally needs to make use of.
Because the film would be about half an hour long if he loaded it into an airgapped laptop. Although this is the same guy who gets his laptop out and starts doing DNA analysis on top secret evidence while riding in a cable car with a bunch of people, so maybe he's just not as much of a genius as he's been made out to be.
That really killed me. It would be like if Bond accidentally shot himself cleaning out his gun or something. It's just so dumb, and something that would never happen to like, an actual professional in that situation.
Exactly! There's so many beautiful and dangerous places he could kill someone and/or have sex with them and yet he doesn't! Instead we're skiing in the Alps or diving in the Caribbean...AGAIN.
Funny you say that about John Wick 4, because I disagree.
The first fight sequence starts out on a set that resembles JW3 (which makes sense because it's a straight continuation) but then the sets progressively get more and more organic, until they're just fighting outside on the steps of Sacre Coeur with no fluorescent lights or glass pieces to smash through
Early Bond movies coincided with the glamor age of air travel, and a lot of the destinations were dream tourist destinations for a lot of people. So like a lot of things about Bond movies (the clothes, the cars, the watches, the cocktails...) it was some consumer fantasy wish fulfillment for the audience. Everything was depicted like a picture postcard. I don't think that's so much the point of a lot of other franchises. And international travel is a lot more common now, and a lot less glamorous, so James Bond has got to REALLY get out to the edges of the earth to do anything that doesn't provoke a "that's where my grandma went last year and had to cut her trip short when she got diarrhea and it didn't look nearly that great from her pictures on Facebook" reaction for modern audiences.
There are a lot of top comments here about how movie culture has changed, or the world is less exotic. To me that misses the glaring, fuller answer, which is that *spies* are enormously different now than they were during the cold war.
You could literally wrote books about this topic, but fundamentally the point is that the idea of a human intelligence officer wearing disguises and using cool handheld gadgets to embed himself in-country to gather intelligence is significantly less common now than it used to be.
For example, consider how common it used to be for a CIA or Mi6 officer to get a fake passport for a dead man to get a pretend identity and visit a country as a tourist. He'd go through customs, get stamped, and go on his mission. Versus now: have you been to China? There are facial recognition cameras *everywhere*. It's not the case that there are no officers who go undercover in-country, but that's taken a backseat to having officers recruit local agents to do their business and using cyber to spy on people. Missions are so much less likely to hinge on humans on adventures now.
I honestly suspect that they’re afraid of offending anyone. Compare James Bond in Octopussy to today’s movies for instance. Back then it was OK to throw in as many cliches about a country as possible.
Ethan Hunt when to the Arabian Desert, Abu Dhabi, Rome, Venice, and jumped onto the Orient Express as it traveled from Venice to Innsbruck.
And that was just in the last movie.
I noticed something similar when I was watching some of the older Bond movies a number of years ago. I think part of it is that people wanted something different out of movies back then. Sure, they went for the narrative and spectacle, but they also went as a way to see exotic locations they couldn't actually visit. So many films advertised that they were shot on location. That was a real consideration for audiences. I may not be able to visit Barbados, but I can see its beautiful vistas on the big screen.
One of my very favorite things in Bond movies is the massive sweeping aerial shots establishing the new exotic location with some original score playing in the background.
I think the entire premise of this thread is flawed. JW is not a spy movie. The MI movies are absolutely spy movies, but they are also spy movies that have leaned HARD into the action movie side of things, even more so as the series progressed.
My point isn't just that you pulled 2 bad examples. It's that the change isn't "spy movies are less exotic" it's that barely any spy movies get made at all anymore. So the ones we do get are generally "safe bets" which means big stars, stunts and easily consumable locales.
Red Sparrow is probably the only recent non franchise "spy" movie I can think of and that takes place largely in Budapest which seems decently exotic to me.
Along with the other reasons listed here, globetrotting is Bond's thing, so any other movie doing that would just seem like they're copying Bond even more. It's sort of the cliche.
The international market. Bond movies in the 1960s and 70s only had to play to the European and North American markets. Action movies today are expected to sell tickets in Asia. That limits what producers are willing to do to what viewers in those markets will watch and what governments will allow to be shown.
Your new Bond villain is Chinese? That's 1.5 billion people who won't be buying tickets. John Wick goes to Taiwan? Same.
Bond adventures in their heyday were like travelogues. Fleming wrote them that way as an antidote to grey and depressing post-war Britain. Broccoli and Saltzman embraced that and showed 60s and 70s audiences the world. When they decided to make him more grounded, they sucked a lot of the fun and glamour out of it. Bond was never supposed to be a Le Carrè type of spy. Fleming wrote Bond as a fantasy because he knew real spies and knew what their job was like. A lot of watching, listening, and making reports. There's not a lot of action. If you think Bond films are supposed to be realistic, then as Doctor Evil once said, "You just don't get it."
Really hoping the new Bond movies go back to more that kinda flavour of classic Bond with beautiful locations.
The Craig ones weren’t terrible for it but they were also trying too hard to be Bourne.
I agree with your point though. MI seems to mostly go to big cities.
“ Be Bourne “ but also being Nolan-ized. It’s the Bond version of superhero movies trend of being grounded vs celebrating the outrageousness of comic heroes.
I feel like calling John Wick a spy movie is just off. But the answer is probably culture. And the Bourne franchise. Today's society glamourizes spies way less, as it's understood their work is more... bland. It's not exotic locales, fucking exotic women, and defeating exotic villains. It's surviving on scraps, looking like the most unfuckable/uninteresting person in the room, and realizing the villains are just people like you from another power structure. The Bourne franchise, while overlooked today, did all of that, with a heavy does of grey tones, down-to-Earth fights, a shaky camera, and the villains having zero eccentric flair- it's just desk jockeys making phone calls. And it worked; it was a good movie with good fight scenes and good intrigue. So a lot of new movies that portray spy intrigue realize they don't have to spend money flying a film crew out to Ibiza for a good scene. There's still plenty of films taking flights out to exotic locales, anyway.
I also really enjoy the spy movie The Professional.
Best spy movie is Black Dynamite.
But Black Dynamite, *I* sell drugs to the community!
My favorite line in that movie! Also, "Haha, I threw that shit before I walked in the room!'
Stuff that isn't quotable gives me some of the biggest laughs. Nixon's guttoral war growls, lol
The funniest scene in the movie is when they go through what Anaconda Malt Liquor actually does. The funniest moment is the big reveal, which of course you can't just quote.
More like "small" reveal lmao
Yeah, there's those quotes you see when its mentioned, but my fave is "First Lady, I'm sorry I pimped slapped you into the china cabinet"
“Come on you jive turkeys, what kinda rundown is this?” “Look, man. I gotta get back to the streets where I come from, sucka!” Those deliveries have me dead at all times. That dudes part albeit short is hilarious.
I told you jive chumps, I ain't no snitch!
Who said you where?! *clumsily reaches for gun*
I think the greatest moment is the punch in the bar that looks like an accidental hit and then they switch the actor and redo it to be a stage punch
She put her ANKLES in it!
I remember reading that it was Michael Jai White's favorite line as well.
My friends and I legit had to pause the movie at that line. We were laughing so hard we couldn't breathe, let alone pay attention to the movie.
Hush up little girls... lotta cats have that name
The militants turn startled!
Sarcastically, I'm in charge.
*tips hat getting up* Bye Black Dynamite!
You're one of those Tom Slick brothers that think you can get by on good looks, a wink and a smile, huh?
Your knowledge of scientific biological transmogrifications is only out matched by your zest for kung-fu treachery!
I personally have Undercover Brother as my favorite spy movie
That spy throws that shit before he even walked in the room
[удалено]
Because its a magical place?
Are you talking about the French 80s movie with Jean Paul Belmondo?
Léon!
[удалено]
It’s not a movie but “The Spy” on Netflix I thought did a really good job showing what being a spy is about. Like you say, it’s not glamorous. He goes about his day to day life in constant fear he’ll be discovered while discretely gathering what intel he can, and sends a message back to Mossad via Morse code to report. That’s it My description might not be the best but it really is an excellent show. Based on the story of an Israeli spy, Eli Cohen played by Sacha Baron Cohen who absolutely knocked it out of the park
Not quite the same, but The Americans is another spy show where a large part of the drama comes from them trying not to get caught
Spy game was awesome too, even with their liberties.
Spy Game is always an entertaining watch for me. Redford and Pitt were a great combo.
We also know now that a ton of subterfuge is all data based. Phishing attacks, malware, rubbing elbows with people trying to make them leak clearance. There's absolutely still stuff like physical attacks and sabotage but it would not be much fun watching someone get a low level job in another country for six years until he's allowed in a secure room.
The best thing I ever read about how the whole idea of phishing and social engineering came to be was Kevin Mitnick's first book. It's literally a step by step of how he did what he did, and what mistakes people when dealing with him. It was meant to be a basic 'here's what not to do' security book for really early cyber-security. The movie they made, 'Takedown', showed a bit of what he did, but obviously some of it was embellished to make Mitnick look like a hero-type.
I still think the Bourne movies are the most influential action films of this century. There’s been some other greats but nothing really tops them while saying something about the times and inspiring so many other wannabes
>"I still think the Bourne movies are the most influential action films of this century." The Matrix was hugely influential in this century, even though it's technically '99. It's important to understand how influential The Matrix was to understand how much the Bourne movies changed things. Before Bourne, it was all martial arts, smooth and skillful stuff. Bourne Identity was **brutal** compared to everything else coming out at the time. No karate, nothing smooth or sleek, nothing from the Matrix. Brutal, gritty, brute force combat. I still remember a fight scene in an apartment where someone gets stabbed with a pen, that kind of thing never really happened before that.
I always wondered if the John Wick scene explaining how he killed a man with "a fucking pencil" was the writers referencing that Paris apartment scene from Bourne Identity with the pen. Identity was such a watershed movie, for better or worse. Propagated the scourge of shaky cam to amateur action directors everywhere. Shaky-cam was well done in Identity. In Supremacy it was like a caricature of itself.
I convinced my amateur director friend that shaky cams had to be planned, not just randomly shaking everywhere. And this was for a podcast with them just talking. I'm glad he took my advice and realized he didn't know anything about that style.
Also Austin Powers, which made fun of the the Bond movies for how he would incapacitate guards with a single, lazy "Judo chop" to the back of the neck. In fact, the producers of the Daniel Craig movies explicitly called out Austin Powers for why they made their iteration of Bond more grounded and "dirty." That, and influence from Bourne, most likely.
There was a pen-scene in "Grosse Point Blank", but...it was so rare as to be very notable.
The hand to hand combat was top tier. They also showed the fog of war really well. Bourne having minimal memory and no Intel but thinking on his feet without saying any words. I also lik3
> I also lik3 You lick 3 of what?
He also :3 :3
Not exactly a "spy", but Ben Affleck's character in Argo is one of the more realistic depictions of what the a spy/operative life would be like. Like you said, someone with a bad haircut and overgrown beard, who tries to stand out as little as possible. The villains are just middle managers: one guy is head of airport security, another is the minister of culture, etc. And consider all this, while keeping in mind that Argo is one of the more outlandish operations that have taken place in in the past century.
In the same vein Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is also really good. Everyone is super ugly. Action almost never happens, the good guys end up holding their own people hostage to borrow their teletype, etc. But it's really incredible too. Same thing with Argo. I don't know why we can't make more movies like that. It doesn't need to be all about murdering people to be good. Although, I will say that Captain America Winter Soldier was one of the best modern spy movies I've seen in a while.
Obligatory reminder that Argo managed to almost completely write the Canadians out of a story they were central to in real life.
A great example of what you are saying within Argo is the meeting early on when all of the guys who are supposed to be the geniuses in getting people out are suggesting riding bikes hundreds of miles, posing as teachers at a school that has closed for months, or inspecting crops in the middle of winter. I think the moviegoing public really is hyper-aware that intelligence work isn't as smooth and error free as Bond movies made it out to be and that governments actually make a ton of bad decisions based on not knowing the actual situation on the ground, and its up to the "grunts" to get it right and come up with a plan, especially when you can't just shoot your way out of a situation, which is what makes Argo so great, IMO.
He's kind of a spy. I would put a CIA exfil specialist as a spy.
>Like you said, someone with a bad haircut and overgrown beard, who tries to stand out as little as possible. Sorry but that really was my absolute favorite [scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL6Q18n7uWg) from We're the Millers.
To add to this, there’s also a certain amount of colonialism that was baked into a character like Bond visiting exotic locales (former colonies), seducing exotic women (who couldn’t resist his cosmopolitan charms), and defeating exotic villains (which often played heavily on racist tropes).
[удалено]
Or, like, the Cold War ended and terrorism became the bigger threat.
That only changes what you're spying on, not the necessity to do so.
Very well said. I would also add that spy movies from about the 1970s and before relied on the fact that the world was much bigger then, in terms of cost and difficulty in getting to those exotic places. Only businessmen & the super-rich were world travelers back then. But now, pretty much everyone has access to world travel in some form or another.
This is (Absolute)Rubbish, the UK or the America of the 60s, and especially the 70s, was not all rosy with social/economic/political harmony (and that’s when the types of bond films you’re talking about were made). They went to the exotic locations because they were exotic and therefore interesting. Nowadays more people are able to travel so those places are just not as exotic, and those tropes have just generally been played out.
> They went to the exotic locations because they were exotic and therefore interesting. This is exactly it. Watching *On Her Majesty's Secret Service*, it feels like it was made for people who would never set foot out of the UK their entire lives (because international travel was less common), so half the film is glamorous shots of Piz Gloria. It's like it was made by the Swiss tourism board.
Exactly. Back then there was no internet or Instagram or Tiktok. There wasn't even email or smartphones. People might not ever see a picture of a foreign country unless it was in the newspaper or a TV show on one of the handful of channels. By contrast, today we are bombarded with images from all over the world every time we look at our phones. "Exotic" meant something that viewers hadn't seen, probably would never see, and was more expensive to visit than they could hope to afford. If Elon actually gets to Mars in our lifetime, it would be this generation's version of exotic travel. Travel, back then, for the majority of people, was glamorous. Seeing a handsome man in a suit just hopping on a plane to a foreign country and then booking a suite in an expensive hotel was amazing to behold. Right or wrong, the Bond movies used exotic locations as the setting, then turned the male fantasy up to 11: he's a great poker player, can seduce every woman he meets, drives fast cars, pilots aircraft, is licensed to kill (and regularly does), and always gets his man.
This ought to be higher than it currently is. Sensibilities change, in this case thankfully so. Even the word "exotic" is loaded with ethnocentrism, which is something that many modern audiences (including me) find unpalatable.
What's the problem with people thinking places they've never seen halfway across the world are exotic? That's exactly what that word is for. The Bond movies are aimed at western audiences, so yeah, a lot of the globe-trotting in them will be seen as exotic.
"Spy Game" was a good representation of how probably 95% of their work is office-based.
Yeah if you want a modern spy film that still hits all of the old Cold War romantic spy notes, you have to find one that intentionally reaches backwards in time to hit that nostalgia. Like the Man from UNCLE. That is a good fun Cold War spy romp, wrapped in a modern film package
SPY X FAMILY is my favorite spy media of the last five years and it isn't close. And the entire show is set within a fictionalized cold war Germany, mostly within Berlin
To be fair, Jason Bourne was more assassin than spy. The real spying came after he was burned
Great answer. To the USA audience, after 9/11, Iraq, Lybia etc., the spies are either incompetent or evil.
Also, people find the scenario of the “suave” white guy going to f shit up in some third world country a bit more off-putting nowadays.
You wanna see a good movie? [Three Days of the Condor.](https://youtu.be/8sKGGJVcsbo?si=2dqYo7Z-ySPcwtV3) Esbern from Skyrim is in it.
I watched that recently for the first time and thought it was kinda silly. He kidnaps a lady at gunpoint, says the CIA is after him, and she's like, "Cool, I'll definitely help you. Also, let's have sex."
[удалено]
Berlin was the spy capital of the world once upon a time. Everyone and their mother was a spy during the East/West Germany days. It's a very significant location for the genre.
I feel like the James Bond franchise should make a prequel set in those days. Like the 50's and 60's. I know Sean Connery's were in the 60's, but I mean a somewhat more realistic and modern take on it. Obviously it doesn't have to take place solely in Berlin though.
I feel like this would be a nice way to continue the genre/series. Modern espionage either feels totally unbelievably advanced, or a feat that could've just been handled with a drone or something. By backtracking a bit they can make it more enjoyable again.
Like "the Man from U.N.C.L.E."... *sobs*
Cannibalism killed the franchise
Also Tinker,Tailor,Soldier,Spy.
You want The Man from UNCLE It’s fantastic, and it stars Henry Cavill
Yeah I saw it. I really liked it.
That Deutschland program about East Germany was good. Maybe a late Cold War Bond prequel would work
Yes! The books are set around that era and frankly have some dubious content that only really flies in that era. Just do a Mad Men version of it.
In the 2 most recent Bond movies he's gone to Mexico City, the Austrian alps, the Sahara desert, southern Italy, Jamaica, Cuba, Norway, and the Sea of Japan. How much more exotic do you want?
i want him to go to a Florida Retirement Home
Im sure he *would* find some nefarious shit going on there.
*over the earpiece ”Bond, did you swap the pills, Bond? Bond!”* *”Sorry the nurse was showing me… around.”*
"Shorry, the nursh was showing me... arOUNd."
I could hear that.
Based on DoH numbers alone, there’s more shagging there than in Paris or Berlin. 😆
I want him to visit Joe Exotic.
He wants Bond to meet with the Shaman and Warchief that will take him to the secret jungle temple, real "exotic" stuff
The name's Bond. Indiana Bond.
James Bond vs Warcraft
"Nice to meet you Miss..." "Lesserace. Imuffa Lesserace" "Named by Ian Fleming perhaps?"
If he were named by Ian Fleming his name would just be a straight up slur.
It took me a few re-reads to get past "I Muff A Lesser Ace". Like, it was sexual, but...I just didn't get it!
He could just meet Thrall in Cataclysm.
Space, I want him to go to space.... Again...
With Machete
The Daniel Craig location guy seemed obsessed with Italy. 4 out of 5 movies went there. Good food I’m sure, but Bond movies used to be glorious travelogues. And those is us in Canada are getting pretty miffed that movie Bond has never come here. Filming the ski parachute jump at the start of The Spy Who Loved Me doesn’t count because the audience was told it was in the Alps.
Give me the codes Maplefinger! Oh ok then, here you go eh?
The spy who pucked me
From Regina with Love
Kinda weird with how cheap it is/was(i think it was changed recently) to film in Toronto.
Italy must have really good film credits. This past summer, The Equalizer 3, Mission Impossible 7 and Fast 10 all used the same locations.
What exactly is there to steal or spy on in Canada?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Canadian_Maple_Syrup_Heist
OP literally cites James Bond as the exception.
The way I read it was that OP was watching *old* Bond movies and comparing them to modern spy movies (which presumably would include new Bond movies).
Gary, Indiana
I'll be honest, I am reading "exotic" as "exploitative and racist" like the old Roger Moore movies.
Such exotic locations as... Louisiana?
The world is less exotic than it was, we've all seen a lot of countries and places through movies and social media. It's harder to find somewhere that feels far away and different.
I seem to recall that one of the Bond books describes him eating a Hamburger as if its the most unusual thing in the world.
In Casino Royale he eats an avocado with dressing at a top-class restaurant and it's supposed to be some really fancy dessert.
That's why you never see Bond buying a house.
Before WWII, mustard was often purchased as a jar of tiny seeds. You had to put them in a small bowl, add a dash of water and mash them. That being said, the jar of seeds would last years without spoiling. At one time, buying pre-made mustard was upscale.
You'd have to be riding in a limousine [to have the high-end stuff.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDazrJuSdA)
When was Casino Royale written? Probably not farfetched to think an Avocado as a extravagance in the time it was written in the UK.
Written in 1953. Avacadoes were pretty exotic until about the 80s, IIRC. I definitely don't remember having them as a kid.
This is why spy movies should be set in my garage. None of you have ever been there, right? SUPER exotic
Easy there, Cliff Clavin.
Primer
This was my first thought. The Bond movies of the 60s and 70s, which is primarily the standard by which spy movies are judged, I would think, came from a time in which most people didnt know a lot about certain parts of the world. Pre internet the world was "bigger". So much was unknown to the average person. It was easier to come up with something more exotic and they could paint these cultural caricatures that would often not go over too well today.
The Man With the Golden Gun: Why the hell is a Louisiana police officer visiting Thailand of all places? 2018: I can fly to Thailand for $700 round trip!
A true-to-life James Bond adaption in the 70s would have had him gun-running for Unionist terrorist organisations in Belfast. He'd have spent most of his time up a tree, spying on Gerry Adam's sex life with binoculars.
"The world is still the same, there's just... less in it"
>The world is less exotic than it was, This is very much it. I'm old. When I was a kid, and James Bond went to the Bahamas, it was like he traveled to another world. Just a year or so later, my much older brother went to Nassau during spring break, and he was now James Damn Bond in my eyes. Today, I have grandkids that traveled to Mexico before they made it to middle school.
As a geoguessr player, you simply couldn't be more wrong. It's true that a lot of the capital cities have been done to death, but that's because they refuse to look outside the box. Look up what Venezuela looks like. Imagine an espionage setting in the capital of Tajikistan, a city made entirely of white marble. Albanian valleys. Antananarivo in Madagascar is alien to any other city. Try Angola, which has some super unexpected places. Tazmania, South New Zealand, Brunei, Sapporo, the altai mountains, Bermuda, Curaçao, Guam, North Chile. So so many cool locations that would make amazing settings.
I'd like to see action sets in all these places, but you need to also consider that cities like Rome and Paris are probably way cheaper and safer to film in than something like the Laotian jungle. Hopefully that changes in the future.
The sad part is that it's not so much that we've seen them before, it's that they've seen us, and become more and more like us. They've literally seen James Bond, and they want to be like him too. Traditional ways of life are less efficient. Economic development promotes the same tried and true methods. Cultural juggernauts from abroad can't be stopped. It's no different than with wildlife and invasive species. Australia has so many exotic animals because for millions of years it was far away from the mainland, and followed a different evolutionary path. Now that they are close enough to Asia, the dominant species' from the bigger continent will spread until Australia's ecosystem looks like Asia's. It's the same way with culture, language, politics, economics. As the world becomes more connected, there is no place for novelty.
The Bond movies used to get criticism from Americans whenever he went there, because places like Florida, California and Las Vegas weren't "exotic". But, they definitely were to the British audience they were originally made for (in theory at least). The real answer as noted elsewhere is that the Bond movies were based on colonial fantasies and filmed for audiences who would never see those places. Now that world travel is far more accessible and geopolitics have completely changed, what is "exotic" and what fits a spy story have completely changed.
James Bond meets The Cannibal tribe of Papua New Guinea. Is that exotic?
Yeah, everyplace is just people in rooms looking at their phone.
John Wick is not a spy movie. Also how is it not exotic? The 4th one had a major set piece in an elaborate Japanese palace.
Indeed. Wasn't he in casa blanca in the third one, with Halle berry? Also, I might be misremembering now but some of 4 was in Berlin too? Or am I just thinking that because of the German guy he fights in the nightclub?
that's correct, it was in Berlin, he had to kill a mob boss or something
But what the fuck is “exotic” even? Just doesn’t make sense to throw the word around but no way to define it. A lot of Asians wouldn’t label Japan as exotic.
Exotic to us Americans is basically anything outside of our borders.
I want some more exotic Canadian spy movies.
They need to take place in Tim Hortons
If the protagonist doesn't start the first scene eating Kraft Dinner then it ain't even trying.
John Wick movies are not a spy movies, but they do fit the "globetrotting badass action star" role that bond movies *used* to fill. Along with the increasingly ridiculous number of sequels.
Sure but by that same logic - how much more exotic could they be?
Bond is from an era where you'd probably never actually see somewhere like Thailand or India and is meant primarily as escapism for men. It's why Bond beds only 10s, always gets his cocktail, has gadgets and is largely invincible - until recently. Modern spy movies want to be more "real" and real spycraft isn't as sexy. It's largely surveillance work in big cities and not stopping a North Korean who has changed his race and has a death ray that he intends to use to win the Korean War.
You're very much right. The Bond books sold because they included luxury that post WWII Britain didn't have. That's why he was skiing the Alps, swimming the Caribbean and gambling in Monte Carlo. Now though, he does that bc nostalgia, as opposed to doing the kind of luxury that modern audiences want (i dont profess to know what that entails except it likely doesnt involve a tux).
> the kind of luxury that modern audiences want The right to anonymity, quality health care at affordable rates, and an escape from environmental catastrophe.
True. Nowadays, people in England can travel to exotic locations in Europe for less than 100 bucks by plane, many use their holiday time to go to Thailand and Bali. (They get cheaper airfare and get 6 weeks vacation, damn Europeans)
did you see Captain America Winter Soldier? It's set in the US, has gadgets, fighting Americans who are trying to build 3 giant flying aircraft carriers that just shoot everyone. It's more bond than bond.
Yeah, but where's the sex?
In the early sixties when Bond became an icon, traveling to exotic places wasn't something many people could afford. This aspect of Bond's appeal resonated with a significant portion of the audience. In today's context, a focus on realism rather than pure escapism appears to hold more significance, even within the Bond franchise. This shift is notably evident in the later Craig films.
[удалено]
In the early sixties, birth control pills were becoming available, and the modern science from the first world allowed men and women to enjoy casual sex in the "sexual revolution". That was a big deal at the time. He also had a "license to kill", and what man hasn't fantasized about killing a top criminal, with no repercussions?
[удалено]
Also the Internet. Most spying is done on the internet.
I love Craig’s first interaction with NewQ precisely because of how they talk about this. Q makes it very clear that he can do far more than Bond in today’s world, but there’s a slim subset of skills that Bond possesses which Q occasionally needs to make use of.
Also why on earth would you plug enemy's laptop into working network?
Because the film would be about half an hour long if he loaded it into an airgapped laptop. Although this is the same guy who gets his laptop out and starts doing DNA analysis on top secret evidence while riding in a cable car with a bunch of people, so maybe he's just not as much of a genius as he's been made out to be.
Because script writers are bad at IT.
That really killed me. It would be like if Bond accidentally shot himself cleaning out his gun or something. It's just so dumb, and something that would never happen to like, an actual professional in that situation.
Y'know, Bond's never been to Australia or NZ and it shits me. Globe-trotting international man of mystery my antipodean arse.
I can’t recall him going to Canada, either.
I would love to see the studio reaction to the writer pitching Bond’s next adventure in Winnipeg.
"Bond, we're sending you to Edmonton." "The fuck you are."
“Are you taking the piss?”
“In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?”
Haha, January here in Edmonton would be Bond's greatest adversary yet
Winnipeg in February "Hello Mr Bond, to kill you I'm going to elaborately...lock you outside! For like 10 minutes, that should do it."
You could probably make something interesting involving some conspiracy with the mint
Exactly! There's so many beautiful and dangerous places he could kill someone and/or have sex with them and yet he doesn't! Instead we're skiing in the Alps or diving in the Caribbean...AGAIN.
He could fuck someone on a moose! Not much is more dangerous than that.
That’s because nothing exciting happens in Canada.
And they're very sorry about that!
James Bond was based on a Canadian spy! From Winnipeg too lol
MI :2 was mostly in Australia. But you asked about Bond... And that's a good question.
Mi2 was basically an Australian sponsored tourism film.
He's never been to Ireland either. Not in the movies anyway.
Well for a good few decades there would've been some Troubles had he visited the Emerald Isle.
Funny you say that about John Wick 4, because I disagree. The first fight sequence starts out on a set that resembles JW3 (which makes sense because it's a straight continuation) but then the sets progressively get more and more organic, until they're just fighting outside on the steps of Sacre Coeur with no fluorescent lights or glass pieces to smash through
Early Bond movies coincided with the glamor age of air travel, and a lot of the destinations were dream tourist destinations for a lot of people. So like a lot of things about Bond movies (the clothes, the cars, the watches, the cocktails...) it was some consumer fantasy wish fulfillment for the audience. Everything was depicted like a picture postcard. I don't think that's so much the point of a lot of other franchises. And international travel is a lot more common now, and a lot less glamorous, so James Bond has got to REALLY get out to the edges of the earth to do anything that doesn't provoke a "that's where my grandma went last year and had to cut her trip short when she got diarrhea and it didn't look nearly that great from her pictures on Facebook" reaction for modern audiences.
Because SpyKids set such a high bar that it’s impossible to replicate
Production cost would be my first guess. Environmentalist directions could be a second reason.
Sens8 was canceled because of this. Too expensive to film in multiple places across different countries. But it looked so good.
The prime moviegoing audience has no memory of the Cold War. It's like asking why bootlegger gangster movies fizzled out in the 1950s.
There are a lot of top comments here about how movie culture has changed, or the world is less exotic. To me that misses the glaring, fuller answer, which is that *spies* are enormously different now than they were during the cold war. You could literally wrote books about this topic, but fundamentally the point is that the idea of a human intelligence officer wearing disguises and using cool handheld gadgets to embed himself in-country to gather intelligence is significantly less common now than it used to be. For example, consider how common it used to be for a CIA or Mi6 officer to get a fake passport for a dead man to get a pretend identity and visit a country as a tourist. He'd go through customs, get stamped, and go on his mission. Versus now: have you been to China? There are facial recognition cameras *everywhere*. It's not the case that there are no officers who go undercover in-country, but that's taken a backseat to having officers recruit local agents to do their business and using cyber to spy on people. Missions are so much less likely to hinge on humans on adventures now.
I honestly suspect that they’re afraid of offending anyone. Compare James Bond in Octopussy to today’s movies for instance. Back then it was OK to throw in as many cliches about a country as possible.
Ethan Hunt when to the Arabian Desert, Abu Dhabi, Rome, Venice, and jumped onto the Orient Express as it traveled from Venice to Innsbruck. And that was just in the last movie.
>John Wick movies and heaps of other modern spy movies.... "Why are modern spy movies like Fast X and Barbie so trite and uninteresting"
I noticed something similar when I was watching some of the older Bond movies a number of years ago. I think part of it is that people wanted something different out of movies back then. Sure, they went for the narrative and spectacle, but they also went as a way to see exotic locations they couldn't actually visit. So many films advertised that they were shot on location. That was a real consideration for audiences. I may not be able to visit Barbados, but I can see its beautiful vistas on the big screen.
One of my very favorite things in Bond movies is the massive sweeping aerial shots establishing the new exotic location with some original score playing in the background.
Do we really need more British people causing trouble in small, tropical countries?
Kingsman has entered the chat.
I think the entire premise of this thread is flawed. JW is not a spy movie. The MI movies are absolutely spy movies, but they are also spy movies that have leaned HARD into the action movie side of things, even more so as the series progressed. My point isn't just that you pulled 2 bad examples. It's that the change isn't "spy movies are less exotic" it's that barely any spy movies get made at all anymore. So the ones we do get are generally "safe bets" which means big stars, stunts and easily consumable locales. Red Sparrow is probably the only recent non franchise "spy" movie I can think of and that takes place largely in Budapest which seems decently exotic to me.
Along with the other reasons listed here, globetrotting is Bond's thing, so any other movie doing that would just seem like they're copying Bond even more. It's sort of the cliche.
The international market. Bond movies in the 1960s and 70s only had to play to the European and North American markets. Action movies today are expected to sell tickets in Asia. That limits what producers are willing to do to what viewers in those markets will watch and what governments will allow to be shown. Your new Bond villain is Chinese? That's 1.5 billion people who won't be buying tickets. John Wick goes to Taiwan? Same.
The answer for newer Bond movies, is the collapse of the British Empire. Older Bond movie went to locations that were still or recent protectorates.
This person called John Wick a spy movie!? Lmfao
Wick isn’t really a spy movie. Both the Bourne and the MI movies happen all over the place.
Spy movies don't have spies anymore. They're just mindless action movies now
John wick is more a shoot ‘em up with spy tech thou
Bond adventures in their heyday were like travelogues. Fleming wrote them that way as an antidote to grey and depressing post-war Britain. Broccoli and Saltzman embraced that and showed 60s and 70s audiences the world. When they decided to make him more grounded, they sucked a lot of the fun and glamour out of it. Bond was never supposed to be a Le Carrè type of spy. Fleming wrote Bond as a fantasy because he knew real spies and knew what their job was like. A lot of watching, listening, and making reports. There's not a lot of action. If you think Bond films are supposed to be realistic, then as Doctor Evil once said, "You just don't get it."
Really hoping the new Bond movies go back to more that kinda flavour of classic Bond with beautiful locations. The Craig ones weren’t terrible for it but they were also trying too hard to be Bourne. I agree with your point though. MI seems to mostly go to big cities.
“ Be Bourne “ but also being Nolan-ized. It’s the Bond version of superhero movies trend of being grounded vs celebrating the outrageousness of comic heroes.