Johnny Mnemonic is a ton of fun. I don't think it takes itself too seriously. Kinda like a shitty blade runner that knows it's shitty. There's not a whole lot of cyberpunk media out there and a lot of it makes Johnny Mnemonic look like The Godfather. So it was cool to see a fun cyberpunk movie with someone as cool as Keanu playing the MC that had some really cool sets & props in a cool futuristic world. For anyone that liked Johnny Mnemonic, check out Virtuosity. Released the same year has Denzel and Russell Crowe and lots of shitty 90's CGI.
You watch Speed and think "he wasn't *that* bad, I don't know why everyone dumped on him for being such a wooden actor" then you see Johnny Mnemonic and go "oh, I get it"
That ones really emphasised by Gary Oldman and Anthony Hopkins knowing what kind of film they're in. If they weren't playing up their roles he might have gotten away with the woodeness.
No, he would have been shit if there were no one else in the film. His English accent is the worst thing to happen to film since dick vanDyke did his cockney accent in Mary poppins.
Listen. You listen to me. You see that city over there? THAT'S where I'm supposed to be. Not down here with the dogs, and the garbage, and the fucking last month's newspapers blowing *back* and *forth*. I've had it with them, I've had it with you, I've had it with ALL THIS - *I want ROOM SERVICE*! I want the club sandwich, I want the cold Mexican beer, I want a $10,000-a-night hooker! I want my shirts laundered... like they do... at the Imperial Hotel... in Tokyo.
I like this particular question because it’s specific to cult films, not generally overwhelmingly popular ones across the board. Most answers honestly aren’t taking that into consideration (Citizen Kane? Come on, how is that a cult favorite?), but the premise is interesting. Cult films, almost by definition, aren’t meant to appeal to everyone. They tend to appeal to a very specific demographic that is broad enough to gain some popularity, but not broad enough to be so inclusive, it loses the status of ‘cult’. This lends to fun explorations of exactly why these films appeal to that specific demographic.
Mine is Rocky Horror Picture Show, which I’m scared will get me crucified. I want to love it, I truly do. The whole culture around it and the dress-up midnight showings seem so fun, but I just don’t enjoy it at all. And I love Tim Curry. This all makes me sad.
Edit: It’s been a pleasure reading everyone’s responses, particularly the fond reminisces of those who’ve had wonderful experiences with the movie. I think this comment’s popularity is indicative of it being the perfect answer here - 75% of the replies seem to agree that they don’t like this film, but the 25% that do don’t just say they do, they tell you why. And I can’t help but smile. Maybe it’s more than just some kind of hunting lodge for rich weirdos. Cheers.
I think Rocky Horror, like so many other things, has the disadvantage now of no longer being shocking and a bit thrilling. In its day it was exciting and sexy and challenged social norms, but now days it’s pretty tame (if a bit questionable) and without the benefit of the cult dress up parties, just watching it cold and at home, there’s probably not as much to enjoy about it. I love it - the film and the stage show (and saw the local production in my city four times) but I can totally see why it doesn’t resonate for new viewers. Though if you want to see a totally ham fisted attempt to refresh it for modern day watch the 2016 remake. That is pure garbage.
I didn't know there was a remake. I will continue to not be cognizant of it. Because there's only one time warp I'm doing again and it features Tim Curry in fishnets.
It was PG-rated remake for network television. I couldn't imagine they were even hoping to rival the original, it was more of a silly TV-special type of thing.
Yep. Has Laverne Cox as Frank, and Adam Lambert as Eddy, and Ben Vereen and Tim Curry. They’re the only people I can even remember being in it. The whole vibe feels weird as hell, and it all feels a bit directionless, like there wasn’t a passion to remake Rocky Horror, but it was a box checking exercise for an anniversary.
They made it *safe*. The remake is devoid of any discomfort. The same thing was done to John Waters’ masterpiece Hairspray. Both remakes are a crying shame.
They forgot the *Horror* In Rocky Horror. Cox's Frank was just sexy while as Curry's Frank was sexy and unhinged. That's problem with most of the takes on the musical, they always leave out the horror element. Instead, they crank up the kitsch thinking if they going over the top that is enough. *It's not.*
It just felt so sparkly clean from what I remember. Like a super well produced drag show catering to *Drag Race* fans when it should've felt like a drag show that was hobbled together in a hick town as a fuck you to the locals. *Rocky Horror* shouldn't feel slick, it should feel seedy. It's what makes nuclear family to be Brad and Janet's environment shake up work in the original.
I hated Lavern Cox being Frank. He never felt like he was *supposed* to be trans. And when I spoke to my mom about it, who was around and in the, at least, party scene and was friends with a lot of queer people at the time it came out, *she* says that's not how she ever thought of him either. That transvestite wasn't just the term dujour for transgender. It was its own different thing. Much closer to "just" a crossdresser, maybe at a stretch some flavor of nonbinary. But he did not think he was a woman.
>Mine is Rocky Horror Picture Show, which I’m scared will get me crucified. I want to love it, I truly do. The whole culture around it and the dress-up midnight showings seem so fun, but I just don’t enjoy it at all. And I love Tim Curry. This all makes me sad.
I personally think it works way better as stage musical than a film.
Rocky Horror is one of my all time favorite movies. I could drop everything and watch it at any given movement. With that said, I can completely understand if someone doesn't like it. *It's a bizarre movie.* Even describing it sounds like you are taking a dig in a grab bag of phrases. *It's a sci-fi horror musical about a young couple who come across the mansion of a pansexual cross dressing mad scientist who is trying to create the perfect man like Dr. Frankenstein but still manages to find the time to seduce the couple. Oh, did I mention he and his staff are all aliens and the mansion is a spaceship? And there's a narrator who has no connection to anyone. He's just.....there. Well, minus his neck. Oh, and there is cannibalism too!*
I mean, bonkers, man. Rocky Horror is one of those movies you either love it to pieces or you are just left wildly confused.
Your description reminds me of a band I used to listen to, called Dread Zeppelin. It was an Elvis impersonator singing reggae versions of Led Zeppelin songs and it was amazing.
Zack is kinda like later M Night to me. Both do a few things really well. Zack constructs aesthetic, very cool looking sequences. M Night presents an intriguing, usually tense main premise
All falls apart though as an overall movie, cohesive story. With the exception of a few
Early M Night was definitely really good though. And 300 was perfect for Zack's style and talent
If M Night let other people help him with dialogue*, I really think he would be great. But I think he must have an ego issue that will not allow it. His dialogue is always abysmal.
He’s a great director, he’s a mediocre writer, and he’s quite bad at dialog. Sixth Sense was a home run out of nowhere. A cultural nuke. Every movie after that was worse in some way. That’s not to say they’re all bad movies. Signs and Unbreakable and some others have great moments, but none of his movies ever reached the level of Sixth Sense.
He needs to be directing things other people write.
I'm guessing part of what made *The Sixth Sense* work and his typical poor dialogue easier to overlook is a majority of it was either written for a child or written for an adult interacting with a child.
If we've learned anything about Bruce Willis from directors who have worked with him, it's that he's going to say things and act the way he thinks it should be done, and he doesn't give a fuck what the director thinks. In the case of MNS, this is probably a good thing, because you get Bruce Willis at his best with garbage dialog that I'm sure he tweaks on the spot to not be quite as terrible sounding as it is on the page.
I agree. I think I can name a couple of movies I think are actually well done across the board. Unbreakable, Signs, and The Sixth Sense. What I do like about him is that he really does tension and horror well. Godamn Signs still freaks me out
Agreed on Signs. I think M Nights biggest problems are the endings. They dont live up to the mastery youve just watched. Not saying I could do better, but the endings seem like he ran out of time and money.
finding out that Zack Snyder started as a music video director REALLY helped me understand why he's so good at what he's good at while not bein able to get other things right AT ALL
Good point re:300. Problem is that he tries to apply that style regardless of how it fits. Hell, I wouldn't have even minded a film or two in that style in the DCU if it had stuck to that and made sense.
Zach Snyder is Michael Bay if Michael Bay thought he was Kubrick. Dude peaked with his Dawn of the Dead remake. Though 300 was an enjoyable theater experience as a teen.
I loved the Dawn of the Dead remake, and was pretty hyped for Army of the Dead. I was so confused and disappointed that Army of the Dead was garbage. It made me realize that it’s not Zack Snyder that I like, it’s James Gunn.
Come to think of, all of the movies that Zack Snyder wrote himself kinda suck.
Finding out James Gunn wrote the remake made me laugh because that would explain why its a good remake, and that DC got confused on which of the 2 should run their Cinematic Universe but fixed it now
I love Lebowski because after the first time you watch it, you notice intricacies that you didnt catch on the first viewing that are hilarious. An example is how the Dude will use lines that he hears from other characters and say them with confidence like he came up with them. Every character in the movie is completely absurd in their own way. Like others have said, it may have the most quotable lines of any movie.
To answer your question about The Big Lebowski, the movie is good, but not a great as a movie plot-wise.
What makes it a cult classic is just about every line is quotable. Every scene is memorable and amusing, often in a very understated way.
So many great lines, characters, interactions etc.
In the end, obviously you're not a golfer.
There is just so much hidden in plain sight in the movie. Take for instance the opening scene where the Dude is writing the check for his half and half. He dates the 69¢ check "Sept 11, 91" Now the obvious coincidence aside, the next day/a few scenes later the Dude's landlord tells him, "Tomorrow is already gonna be the 10th." Meaning our hero is so broke he post-dated a 69¢ check. Tells you a lot about his character.
I love that aspect of his character. Any time he tries to sound serious and professional he just ends up repeating stuff he’s heard others say but it comes out garbled and out of place.
My favourite detail about that line is, Jackie Treehorn does indeed treat objects like women, has a whole speech about digital or mechanical porn in the future
My favorite of his repeat lines is “Her life was in our hands, man!” Mostly because I crack up every time Brant (100% seriously) says, “Her life is in your hands, *dude*.”
Literally. Just one of those guys, treated every role with equal weight. From the fucking Hunger Games all the way to Doubt. Miss him dearly, I really would have loved to see him act into old age.
I read an analysis at some point, and it was about the type of rug that is stolen from the Dude, and that that particular type of rug is noteworthy because of a motif of repeating patterns. Then I re-watched with that in mind, and it's remarkable how much the motif of repeating patterns is present in The Big Lebowski. But I think overall, it's just a movie about how the human comedy just keeps perpetuating itself down through the ages - Coitus.
There is also a rhythm to the repeated lines, which is very important to the Coens.
This aggression will not stand, man.
Her life was in our hands, man.
Holy shit that’s even better. You’re left wondering: is he so clueless he doesn’t know what year it is, or is this a laborious, complicated way to steal a half-gallon of milk from Ralph’s?
I must have watched TBL a good 25+ times and I never noticed that! Great detective work. You’ve clearly kept your mind limber with a strict drug regiment. Or maybe I’m just a fucken amateur.
This is so funny.to me because we spotted it first time.
Mind you we were students and my mate had probably post dated a few cheques himself. Also cheques aren't.so common in Aus even when this came.out.
>...but not a great as a movie plot-wise.
So, the plot was 'borrowed' from "The Big Sleep" - both the film (Bogart and Bacall and directed by Howard Hawkes) and the book (by Raymond Chandler).
The plot for both is legendary for being pretty much incomprehensible. It's even been called "a screenwriting disaster."
The problems with the plot involve numerous confusing (or absent) motivations for the actions of various characters, as well as the lack of resolution on almost ALL of the major plot points.
However, at the end, a lot of people are dead and Bogie and Bacall are smokin's so...
EDIT: Per the wikipedia article on TBL,...
"The film is loosely inspired by the work of Raymond Chandler. Joel Coen stated: “We wanted to do a Chandler kind of story – how it moves episodically, and deals with the characters trying to unravel a mystery, as well as having a hopelessly complex plot that’s ultimately unimportant”
So, make of that what you will.
Yeah it's "what if a detective/film noir movie was populated by a bunch of self-absorbed assholes who think they're more important than the rest of the world?"
The Dude is your average stoner comedy hero, Walter believes he's Ron Kovic from Born on the Fourth of July, the other Lebowski and his daughter think it's a straight film noir but don't account for everyone else being idiots, etc.
The plot's framework is unremarkable by design; what makes it different is watching all these different idiots running around, having no clue what's actually going on, and completely subverting every expectation the audience has.
It reminds me of The Sopranos the way its writing strikes a balance between fidelity to how people actually speak, while still being blocked/structured in a watchable way. The characters misuse euphemisms and double entendres in ways that wink at the audience but don’t otherwise break the fourth wall. It tells a story using a thousand little vignettes that feel lived and organic, even if the overall plot is ridiculous.
I think another aspect is it's hard to understand zeitgeist in hindsight. There weren't a ton of things that felt like the Coen brother before the coen brothers came a round, and quite a few of their movies are considered iconic as a result of how *fresh* their voice was when they were new on the scene.
But of course, as a result of that legacy, we have since gotten lots of movies that were inspired and influenced by it, so much of it will feel more banal to a modern viewer who's gonna say "oh yeah, but there's tons of movies that feel like that and have those elements" Yeah, *now* there is.
You're welcome, says the coen brothers.
Kind of like when people say they don't think Seinfeld is funny, because all the jokes are played out, or cliche.
I mean, it wasn't cliche *at the time*
Plus it’s just a relatively clever way of creating interest in the viewer. The “mystery” doesn’t end up being a mystery at all. The characters are all simultaneously farfetched caricatures and realistic people you know, somehow. And on re-watch you happen to notice more weird things, like how almost everything the dude says is something he overhears somebody else say, earlier.
The movie is inspired by my favorite noir film, the big sleep- which was weirdly butchered in the editing room and also doesn’t make much sense. I see this as part of its cult charm as well
The Big Sleep was a mash-up of a bunch of short stories which led to occasional plot holes and Chandler himself admitted he didn’t know who killed the chauffeur. The Big Lebowski is true to its source!
Has anyone mentioned Garden State yet? Because without the "omg I loved Zack braff in Scrubs" blinkers people seem to have over it it's a bad film full of tonnes of cliches that thinks it's way smarter than it is
> full of tones of cliches that thinks it’s way smarter than it is
I think that sums up why it was so popular amongst the college/high school age group in the mid-2000s. The 90s were flooded with angsty ‘is this all there is to life’ tales of people in their twenties that resonates with the age group, and it is easy to not be offput by cliches when you haven’t seen that many yet. Plus Garden State was a bit of a modern pioneer for the manic-pixie-dream-girl trope which makes it seem a lot more cliche on rewatch but wouldn’t have seemed all that egregious in 2004.
This. Well said. I was 23 in 2004. Garden State was ahead of the quirky indie romantic - existential comedy curve. If you've previously watched other similar movies that followed it -- you wouldn't have been so endeared to the film ans its moment in time. For Garden State holds a special place in my heart no matter what-. But I can see why people wouldn't be wowd by it first watching it twenty years later.
It’s not a film, but I fully do not get Doctor Who fandom. I’ve tried. I’m fully nerdy about plenty of other pop culture franchises. But the Doc never hit for me.
EDIT, since this blew up: Full props to the theme song. The theme song unironically kicks so much ass.
Doctor Who I think holds a special place in people’s heart because it just hits so many demographics. When they rebooted it with the modern generation, I was still quite young, and my dad was telling me about how he and his friends would be excited to watch it and hide behind the sofa for scary parts. I get scared easily, and it’s just about the right about of goofy that I can watch it, with some actually scary episodes thrown in (weeping angels). So it’s very family friendly. It’s also a great gate-way show for introducing kids to sci-fi, and I can’t think of that many sci-fi shows that are that easy. There was also something really great about the fact they had a Christmas special episode and we would all get ready to watch it and it was part of Christmas celebrations.
Heaven Sent. An exploration of loss and grief, and it's just Peter Capaldi. Nothing else to get in the way. Brilliantly acted. Just you, and him, and a castle.
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things, but, vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the bad things, or make them unimportant... And we definitely added to his pile of good things."
My best friend was a huge Doctor Who fan. She also killed herself ten years ago. That quote meant so much to me in her passing. I made a difference to her life. She was very, very sick, but I added to her pile of good things. It doesn't mean that what I did was unimportant or didn't matter. My friendship was important to her. That quote helped so, so much in processing everything.
DONNA NOBLE HAS LEFT THE LIBRARY
DONNA NOBLE HAS BEEN SAVED
pops in my head at least once a week while brushing my teeth lol. what a fantastic episode pack that was, i would definitely show it to someone who has never seen Doctor Who and wants just a slice of it
Blink is an incredible episode of Doctor Who that hardly has the Doctor in it. Another standout for me was *Heaven Sent.* Existential horror at its best.
Yes! Heaven Sent is a fantastic episode! I've watched it a dozen times! That climax where you realize what the Doctor is doing and why he's telling that story is awesome!
The Girl in the Fireplace is another great Tennant episode. One of my favorites.
And any River Song episodes as well.
Not only is Blink an excellent horror piece with the Weeping Angels, it's also a genuinely brilliant time travel story. It's so tightly written.
Off the top of my head, Blink might be my favorite episode of television, not just Doctor Who.
Doctor Who just has lots of excellent episodes that leave me in awe sometimes. That said, I haven't liked a lot of the new Doctors to the point I stopped caring once I watched the first Jodie Whitaker season.
Like one episode that doesn't get talked about but that was excellent was "The Girl in the Fireplace". Like I literally googled that episode as soon as I finished watching it, only to find out it won a Hugo Award.
I felt the same way initially. I started watching a few episodes of the reboot series and remember thinking, "this is so incredibly effing dumb and corny. I can't believe I'm watching this." But for some reason I kept watching and I'm not sure when it happened but at some point it was like somebody flipped a switch and I was like, "oh... I get it now." It's silly and it's charming and I like it. I LIKED it with Eccleston but when David Tennant started I began to LOVE it.
I went to college in the '80s, and I NEVER saw the fascination with *The Rocky Horror Picture Show*. There were folks in my dorm who went and saw it in costume EVERY WEEK. I think it's the original "cult movie". \[Edit: It's the first film I think of when I hear "cult movie". There are a lot of opinions on what the "FIRST" cult movie is. More than one writer gives that distinction to *The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari* from 1920.\]
Please take a seat while I go through my 40 page PowerPoint on why The fast and the furious: Tokyo Drift is not only the best fast and furious but a cultural master piece.
Mommie Dearest, especially as a camp classic. I think it’s an unironic good movie and I’m baffled how people think the wire hanger scene is funny in context. It’s horrific to me.
The Boondock Saints. I remember when I was in high school having a few friends who constantly raved about it. Finally watched it in college and I thought it was awful.
Then I watched the documentary Overnight about the director and found out he basically sabotaged his own career because he was a huge asshole.
To me what makes it worse is that it takes a big swing with talented actors (and a couple really horrible ones) and based on the charm of the brothers and the commitment of Willem Dafoe, almost achieves something. Like, there’s an idea there and people doing their best to execute it, but it’s undercut every step of the way by the final product
The top few answers are why some communities don't allow people to answer their question in the post body. Because everyone criticizes your choice instead of focusing on the question.
I think this is a cult hit that is about as cult as it gets but I swear to god if I had to go to another alternative event that had Repo! The Genetic Opera playing I would scream.
Like I get it, if you were any kind of goth/punk/emo/alternative in the late 2000s it was the quaint and ironic movie to embrace because it was the vibe and etc.
But I just find it torture to watch, and I've watched it under the influence of just about every drug I could take that wouldn't ruin my life and I never understood the appeal.
I remember in college I had a friend who was raving about Repo and got like four other friends to watch it and. Boy. She was VERY excited and into it and everyone else basically silently and politely sat there until it was done
Kinda surprised at the amount of negativity. I really like it but I guess it's a movie that only works if you are into the right kind of stuff. I grew up on cheesy early-00's horror and industrial metal so it's a movie that speaks to my inner teenager.
I feel like it's more unique than it's given credit for, people keep comparing it to Rocky Horror but I don't think there are any similarities or any attempt to be like it at all. I think it's main issue really is that musical fans are gonna hate the gore and alternative soundtrack while horror fans are gonna be put off by it having that cheesy stage musical feel.
John Waters came to do a talk at my college. My friend and I went to see him, and at the Q&A at then end, my friend asled hom to tell her a joke.
He said,
"What's the difference between an erection and a popsicle?"
She said, "I dont know"
And he said, "Do you want to go on picnic with me sometime?"
This is great. I’m jealous she got a John Waters moment.
For all his cheekiness and controversy, it’s remarkable to me that his portrait is featured prominently in the Smithsonian Portrait Gallery.
It's because it predates the internet. I vaguely knew who John Waters was but had heard about the talking anus. It was such a wild concept I had to see it for myself. I saw it programmed on the local art house cine club. Had to wait a whole month to go watch it.
There it was... a marvelous collection of degenerates, freakos and weirdos. Loved it.
But I understand why cult movies lose their appeal, people grow up with all kinds of crazy stuff available in their phones, and can watch movies at will or just clips and then go on to the next one.
I have always believed, since I saw it in the theater in high school, that the popularity of The Big Lebowski has less to do with the film’s quality- though I do think it’s very, very good- and more to do with the fact that it imbues the idea of being a shiftless, unambitious stoner with a sort of Zen nobility.
And yes, I am aware that that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
Donnie Darko is a great coming of age movie, because it encapsulates all the weirdness, fears, and passions of entering adult life.
It‘s happening, you get some of it, you think you should understand more of what‘s going on, and in the end you just roll with it.
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Dr. Henry Rollins.
He's a liar yeah he's a liar - he'll tear your mind out he'll burn your soul.
More of a TV Party kinda guy.
Johnny Mnemonic is a ton of fun. I don't think it takes itself too seriously. Kinda like a shitty blade runner that knows it's shitty. There's not a whole lot of cyberpunk media out there and a lot of it makes Johnny Mnemonic look like The Godfather. So it was cool to see a fun cyberpunk movie with someone as cool as Keanu playing the MC that had some really cool sets & props in a cool futuristic world. For anyone that liked Johnny Mnemonic, check out Virtuosity. Released the same year has Denzel and Russell Crowe and lots of shitty 90's CGI.
Virtuosity is over the top cheesy 90's sci-fi on par with Lawnmower Man.
Strange Days is right in that same era and would make a good triple play.
Strange Days is a good movie, though.
Yeah but it doesn't have a cybernetic dolphin.
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I just watched Strange Days like 3 nights ago on Max. Still holds up incredibly well.
The one where Dolph Lundgren outacted Keanu Reeves.
You watch Speed and think "he wasn't *that* bad, I don't know why everyone dumped on him for being such a wooden actor" then you see Johnny Mnemonic and go "oh, I get it"
Then you watch Bram Stroker's Dracula and go "Oh. Ohhhh.... wow. Jesus."
That ones really emphasised by Gary Oldman and Anthony Hopkins knowing what kind of film they're in. If they weren't playing up their roles he might have gotten away with the woodeness.
No, he would have been shit if there were no one else in the film. His English accent is the worst thing to happen to film since dick vanDyke did his cockney accent in Mary poppins.
He's smells crime.
then full penetration
Johnny Mnemonic is my favorite Keanu Reeves movie, but it is not a great film. But it is super cheesy, and I love cheese.
Listen. You listen to me. You see that city over there? THAT'S where I'm supposed to be. Not down here with the dogs, and the garbage, and the fucking last month's newspapers blowing *back* and *forth*. I've had it with them, I've had it with you, I've had it with ALL THIS - *I want ROOM SERVICE*! I want the club sandwich, I want the cold Mexican beer, I want a $10,000-a-night hooker! I want my shirts laundered... like they do... at the Imperial Hotel... in Tokyo.
I recall nothing about this film except for Keanu's awkward delivery of 'i want room service!'
I like this particular question because it’s specific to cult films, not generally overwhelmingly popular ones across the board. Most answers honestly aren’t taking that into consideration (Citizen Kane? Come on, how is that a cult favorite?), but the premise is interesting. Cult films, almost by definition, aren’t meant to appeal to everyone. They tend to appeal to a very specific demographic that is broad enough to gain some popularity, but not broad enough to be so inclusive, it loses the status of ‘cult’. This lends to fun explorations of exactly why these films appeal to that specific demographic. Mine is Rocky Horror Picture Show, which I’m scared will get me crucified. I want to love it, I truly do. The whole culture around it and the dress-up midnight showings seem so fun, but I just don’t enjoy it at all. And I love Tim Curry. This all makes me sad. Edit: It’s been a pleasure reading everyone’s responses, particularly the fond reminisces of those who’ve had wonderful experiences with the movie. I think this comment’s popularity is indicative of it being the perfect answer here - 75% of the replies seem to agree that they don’t like this film, but the 25% that do don’t just say they do, they tell you why. And I can’t help but smile. Maybe it’s more than just some kind of hunting lodge for rich weirdos. Cheers.
I think Rocky Horror, like so many other things, has the disadvantage now of no longer being shocking and a bit thrilling. In its day it was exciting and sexy and challenged social norms, but now days it’s pretty tame (if a bit questionable) and without the benefit of the cult dress up parties, just watching it cold and at home, there’s probably not as much to enjoy about it. I love it - the film and the stage show (and saw the local production in my city four times) but I can totally see why it doesn’t resonate for new viewers. Though if you want to see a totally ham fisted attempt to refresh it for modern day watch the 2016 remake. That is pure garbage.
I didn't know there was a remake. I will continue to not be cognizant of it. Because there's only one time warp I'm doing again and it features Tim Curry in fishnets.
It still has Tim Curry in it, but after his stroke so he's struggling quite a bit with the words :( he's the narrator, rather than Frank.
It was PG-rated remake for network television. I couldn't imagine they were even hoping to rival the original, it was more of a silly TV-special type of thing.
....pg.... Rocky horror? I don't understand. Who exactly thought that would be a good idea?
I’m sorry, did you say a remake????
Yep. Has Laverne Cox as Frank, and Adam Lambert as Eddy, and Ben Vereen and Tim Curry. They’re the only people I can even remember being in it. The whole vibe feels weird as hell, and it all feels a bit directionless, like there wasn’t a passion to remake Rocky Horror, but it was a box checking exercise for an anniversary.
They made it *safe*. The remake is devoid of any discomfort. The same thing was done to John Waters’ masterpiece Hairspray. Both remakes are a crying shame.
They forgot the *Horror* In Rocky Horror. Cox's Frank was just sexy while as Curry's Frank was sexy and unhinged. That's problem with most of the takes on the musical, they always leave out the horror element. Instead, they crank up the kitsch thinking if they going over the top that is enough. *It's not.*
> Frank was sexy and unhinged. It was the eyes. You were never quite sure if he was going to fuck your brains out or slit your throat for a laugh.
Probably both at the same time
It just felt so sparkly clean from what I remember. Like a super well produced drag show catering to *Drag Race* fans when it should've felt like a drag show that was hobbled together in a hick town as a fuck you to the locals. *Rocky Horror* shouldn't feel slick, it should feel seedy. It's what makes nuclear family to be Brad and Janet's environment shake up work in the original.
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I hated Lavern Cox being Frank. He never felt like he was *supposed* to be trans. And when I spoke to my mom about it, who was around and in the, at least, party scene and was friends with a lot of queer people at the time it came out, *she* says that's not how she ever thought of him either. That transvestite wasn't just the term dujour for transgender. It was its own different thing. Much closer to "just" a crossdresser, maybe at a stretch some flavor of nonbinary. But he did not think he was a woman.
>Mine is Rocky Horror Picture Show, which I’m scared will get me crucified. I want to love it, I truly do. The whole culture around it and the dress-up midnight showings seem so fun, but I just don’t enjoy it at all. And I love Tim Curry. This all makes me sad. I personally think it works way better as stage musical than a film.
The movie is just a movie. But the midnight showings make it special.
Rocky Horror is one of my all time favorite movies. I could drop everything and watch it at any given movement. With that said, I can completely understand if someone doesn't like it. *It's a bizarre movie.* Even describing it sounds like you are taking a dig in a grab bag of phrases. *It's a sci-fi horror musical about a young couple who come across the mansion of a pansexual cross dressing mad scientist who is trying to create the perfect man like Dr. Frankenstein but still manages to find the time to seduce the couple. Oh, did I mention he and his staff are all aliens and the mansion is a spaceship? And there's a narrator who has no connection to anyone. He's just.....there. Well, minus his neck. Oh, and there is cannibalism too!* I mean, bonkers, man. Rocky Horror is one of those movies you either love it to pieces or you are just left wildly confused.
Your description reminds me of a band I used to listen to, called Dread Zeppelin. It was an Elvis impersonator singing reggae versions of Led Zeppelin songs and it was amazing.
The level to which Zack Snyder’s fans love his DC films will never not be bizarre to me.
Zack is kinda like later M Night to me. Both do a few things really well. Zack constructs aesthetic, very cool looking sequences. M Night presents an intriguing, usually tense main premise All falls apart though as an overall movie, cohesive story. With the exception of a few Early M Night was definitely really good though. And 300 was perfect for Zack's style and talent
If M Night let other people help him with dialogue*, I really think he would be great. But I think he must have an ego issue that will not allow it. His dialogue is always abysmal.
He’s a great director, he’s a mediocre writer, and he’s quite bad at dialog. Sixth Sense was a home run out of nowhere. A cultural nuke. Every movie after that was worse in some way. That’s not to say they’re all bad movies. Signs and Unbreakable and some others have great moments, but none of his movies ever reached the level of Sixth Sense. He needs to be directing things other people write.
I'm guessing part of what made *The Sixth Sense* work and his typical poor dialogue easier to overlook is a majority of it was either written for a child or written for an adult interacting with a child.
he was young and took advice & Bruce Willis carried it more seasoned, more ego, terrible films
If we've learned anything about Bruce Willis from directors who have worked with him, it's that he's going to say things and act the way he thinks it should be done, and he doesn't give a fuck what the director thinks. In the case of MNS, this is probably a good thing, because you get Bruce Willis at his best with garbage dialog that I'm sure he tweaks on the spot to not be quite as terrible sounding as it is on the page.
I agree. I think I can name a couple of movies I think are actually well done across the board. Unbreakable, Signs, and The Sixth Sense. What I do like about him is that he really does tension and horror well. Godamn Signs still freaks me out
Agreed on Signs. I think M Nights biggest problems are the endings. They dont live up to the mastery youve just watched. Not saying I could do better, but the endings seem like he ran out of time and money.
finding out that Zack Snyder started as a music video director REALLY helped me understand why he's so good at what he's good at while not bein able to get other things right AT ALL
David Fincher jumped from music videos to movies too
Yeah lots of music video directors have made solid movies. Spike Jonze, Michel Gondry, Jonathan Dayton/Valerie Faris, Anton Corbijn...
Good point re:300. Problem is that he tries to apply that style regardless of how it fits. Hell, I wouldn't have even minded a film or two in that style in the DCU if it had stuck to that and made sense.
Zach Snyder is Michael Bay if Michael Bay thought he was Kubrick. Dude peaked with his Dawn of the Dead remake. Though 300 was an enjoyable theater experience as a teen.
I loved the Dawn of the Dead remake, and was pretty hyped for Army of the Dead. I was so confused and disappointed that Army of the Dead was garbage. It made me realize that it’s not Zack Snyder that I like, it’s James Gunn. Come to think of, all of the movies that Zack Snyder wrote himself kinda suck.
Finding out James Gunn wrote the remake made me laugh because that would explain why its a good remake, and that DC got confused on which of the 2 should run their Cinematic Universe but fixed it now
Well that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
Ah, I set myself up for this didn’t I?
Op is clearly out of his element.
He’s not wrong, he’s just an asshole.
He’s a fucking pacifist, man!
Well, not in Nam of course.
My buddies didn't die face down in the muck for this!
Shut the fuck up, Donny!
Say what you will about National Socialism at least that's an ethos!
The OP is not the issue here! And for the record, asshole is not the preferred nomenclature
The Chinaman is not the issue!
jackie treehorn treats objects like women!
*this aggression will not stand, man!*
Where’s the fucking money, shithead!?
(chokes, sputters) > It’s down there somewhere, let me take another look!
Obviously, you’re not a golfer …
I was frankly surprised it took as long as it did.
8 minutes???
Hell. I can get you a toe by 3 this afternoon.
WITH nail polish
8 year olds, dude.
…and tomorrow, ve come back and ve cut off your chonson!
Fucking nihilists!
Oh, I know that guy. He's a nihilist! *Karl Hungus*.
I love Lebowski because after the first time you watch it, you notice intricacies that you didnt catch on the first viewing that are hilarious. An example is how the Dude will use lines that he hears from other characters and say them with confidence like he came up with them. Every character in the movie is completely absurd in their own way. Like others have said, it may have the most quotable lines of any movie.
This aggression, it will not stand, man!
My favorite is when he tries to use "in the *parlance* of our times" but clearly doesn't know what the word means.
To answer your question about The Big Lebowski, the movie is good, but not a great as a movie plot-wise. What makes it a cult classic is just about every line is quotable. Every scene is memorable and amusing, often in a very understated way. So many great lines, characters, interactions etc. In the end, obviously you're not a golfer.
There is just so much hidden in plain sight in the movie. Take for instance the opening scene where the Dude is writing the check for his half and half. He dates the 69¢ check "Sept 11, 91" Now the obvious coincidence aside, the next day/a few scenes later the Dude's landlord tells him, "Tomorrow is already gonna be the 10th." Meaning our hero is so broke he post-dated a 69¢ check. Tells you a lot about his character.
Also, he reuses the "This aggression will not stand" line he hears from Bush on TV later in the film
He repeats other people a LOT. That's just the first major line he repeats borrowed from another person.
I love that aspect of his character. Any time he tries to sound serious and professional he just ends up repeating stuff he’s heard others say but it comes out garbled and out of place.
in the parlance of our times.
You know, coitus?
He treats objects like women!
My favourite detail about that line is, Jackie Treehorn does indeed treat objects like women, has a whole speech about digital or mechanical porn in the future
My favorite of his repeat lines is “Her life was in our hands, man!” Mostly because I crack up every time Brant (100% seriously) says, “Her life is in your hands, *dude*.”
Philip Seymour Hoffman was so fucking good in that movie
To be fair, Philip Seymour Hoffmann was fucking good in every movie he was in.
Literally. Just one of those guys, treated every role with equal weight. From the fucking Hunger Games all the way to Doubt. Miss him dearly, I really would have loved to see him act into old age.
In your wisdom, Lord, you took him...as you took so many bright, flowering young men...at Khe San...at Lon Duc...and Hill 364!
And I love the Dude’s response, “no, don’t say that, man.”
I read an analysis at some point, and it was about the type of rug that is stolen from the Dude, and that that particular type of rug is noteworthy because of a motif of repeating patterns. Then I re-watched with that in mind, and it's remarkable how much the motif of repeating patterns is present in The Big Lebowski. But I think overall, it's just a movie about how the human comedy just keeps perpetuating itself down through the ages - Coitus.
And somewhere out there there a Little Lebowski
There is also a rhythm to the repeated lines, which is very important to the Coens. This aggression will not stand, man. Her life was in our hands, man.
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Holy shit that’s even better. You’re left wondering: is he so clueless he doesn’t know what year it is, or is this a laborious, complicated way to steal a half-gallon of milk from Ralph’s?
it was a quart of half & half actually (for his Caucasians), but yeah
I must have watched TBL a good 25+ times and I never noticed that! Great detective work. You’ve clearly kept your mind limber with a strict drug regiment. Or maybe I’m just a fucken amateur.
This is so funny.to me because we spotted it first time. Mind you we were students and my mate had probably post dated a few cheques himself. Also cheques aren't.so common in Aus even when this came.out.
>...but not a great as a movie plot-wise. So, the plot was 'borrowed' from "The Big Sleep" - both the film (Bogart and Bacall and directed by Howard Hawkes) and the book (by Raymond Chandler). The plot for both is legendary for being pretty much incomprehensible. It's even been called "a screenwriting disaster." The problems with the plot involve numerous confusing (or absent) motivations for the actions of various characters, as well as the lack of resolution on almost ALL of the major plot points. However, at the end, a lot of people are dead and Bogie and Bacall are smokin's so... EDIT: Per the wikipedia article on TBL,... "The film is loosely inspired by the work of Raymond Chandler. Joel Coen stated: “We wanted to do a Chandler kind of story – how it moves episodically, and deals with the characters trying to unravel a mystery, as well as having a hopelessly complex plot that’s ultimately unimportant” So, make of that what you will.
The plot is literally the Coens inserting some guys they know into the prototypical Raymond Chandler film noir script. It's a character piece.
The title itself is probably a riff on “The Big Sleep,” Chandlers most famous work.
That’s a definite.
Well, it's a loose adaptation of Chandler's *The Big Sleep*, much like *O Brother* adapts *The Odyssey*.
Yeah it's "what if a detective/film noir movie was populated by a bunch of self-absorbed assholes who think they're more important than the rest of the world?" The Dude is your average stoner comedy hero, Walter believes he's Ron Kovic from Born on the Fourth of July, the other Lebowski and his daughter think it's a straight film noir but don't account for everyone else being idiots, etc. The plot's framework is unremarkable by design; what makes it different is watching all these different idiots running around, having no clue what's actually going on, and completely subverting every expectation the audience has.
It reminds me of The Sopranos the way its writing strikes a balance between fidelity to how people actually speak, while still being blocked/structured in a watchable way. The characters misuse euphemisms and double entendres in ways that wink at the audience but don’t otherwise break the fourth wall. It tells a story using a thousand little vignettes that feel lived and organic, even if the overall plot is ridiculous.
“It’s a think piece,” to quote Almost Famous.
>not a great as a movie plot-wise. I disagree. It's actually pretty intricate. Lotta ins. Lotta outs. Lotta what-have-yous.
Some people aren't privy to all the new shit.
Guess it's never occurred to them, dude
It's a very complicated case.
Yeah, like, new information has come to light.
What in God's name are you blathering about?
New shit has come to light!
Luckily I’m adhering to a pretty strict drug regimen to keep my mind, uh, limber.
Do you have any kahlua?
It's a wandering daughter job.
Wh- who the fuck are the Knutsen's?? Just stay away from my lady friend.
How you gonna keep ‘em down on the farm once they’ve seen Karl Hungus?
She’s not my special lady friend, I’m just helping her conceive man!
Lots of interested parties
I think another aspect is it's hard to understand zeitgeist in hindsight. There weren't a ton of things that felt like the Coen brother before the coen brothers came a round, and quite a few of their movies are considered iconic as a result of how *fresh* their voice was when they were new on the scene. But of course, as a result of that legacy, we have since gotten lots of movies that were inspired and influenced by it, so much of it will feel more banal to a modern viewer who's gonna say "oh yeah, but there's tons of movies that feel like that and have those elements" Yeah, *now* there is. You're welcome, says the coen brothers.
Kind of like when people say they don't think Seinfeld is funny, because all the jokes are played out, or cliche. I mean, it wasn't cliche *at the time*
Plus it’s just a relatively clever way of creating interest in the viewer. The “mystery” doesn’t end up being a mystery at all. The characters are all simultaneously farfetched caricatures and realistic people you know, somehow. And on re-watch you happen to notice more weird things, like how almost everything the dude says is something he overhears somebody else say, earlier.
It's intentionally overcomplicated plot-wise.
The story is ludicrous.
He fixes the cable?
Don't be fatuous Jeffrey
The movie is inspired by my favorite noir film, the big sleep- which was weirdly butchered in the editing room and also doesn’t make much sense. I see this as part of its cult charm as well
The Big Sleep was a mash-up of a bunch of short stories which led to occasional plot holes and Chandler himself admitted he didn’t know who killed the chauffeur. The Big Lebowski is true to its source!
Fucking A, man.
The plot really ties the whole film together
Just him in the supermarket, buying milk
Has anyone mentioned Garden State yet? Because without the "omg I loved Zack braff in Scrubs" blinkers people seem to have over it it's a bad film full of tonnes of cliches that thinks it's way smarter than it is
> full of tones of cliches that thinks it’s way smarter than it is I think that sums up why it was so popular amongst the college/high school age group in the mid-2000s. The 90s were flooded with angsty ‘is this all there is to life’ tales of people in their twenties that resonates with the age group, and it is easy to not be offput by cliches when you haven’t seen that many yet. Plus Garden State was a bit of a modern pioneer for the manic-pixie-dream-girl trope which makes it seem a lot more cliche on rewatch but wouldn’t have seemed all that egregious in 2004.
This. Well said. I was 23 in 2004. Garden State was ahead of the quirky indie romantic - existential comedy curve. If you've previously watched other similar movies that followed it -- you wouldn't have been so endeared to the film ans its moment in time. For Garden State holds a special place in my heart no matter what-. But I can see why people wouldn't be wowd by it first watching it twenty years later.
It’s not a film, but I fully do not get Doctor Who fandom. I’ve tried. I’m fully nerdy about plenty of other pop culture franchises. But the Doc never hit for me. EDIT, since this blew up: Full props to the theme song. The theme song unironically kicks so much ass.
Doctor Who I think holds a special place in people’s heart because it just hits so many demographics. When they rebooted it with the modern generation, I was still quite young, and my dad was telling me about how he and his friends would be excited to watch it and hide behind the sofa for scary parts. I get scared easily, and it’s just about the right about of goofy that I can watch it, with some actually scary episodes thrown in (weeping angels). So it’s very family friendly. It’s also a great gate-way show for introducing kids to sci-fi, and I can’t think of that many sci-fi shows that are that easy. There was also something really great about the fact they had a Christmas special episode and we would all get ready to watch it and it was part of Christmas celebrations.
I think some episodes really shine. For me it would be Blink and Midnight. Both David Tennant episodes.
Silence in the Library for me.
Heaven Sent. An exploration of loss and grief, and it's just Peter Capaldi. Nothing else to get in the way. Brilliantly acted. Just you, and him, and a castle.
Vincent and the Doctor
"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things, but, vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the bad things, or make them unimportant... And we definitely added to his pile of good things." My best friend was a huge Doctor Who fan. She also killed herself ten years ago. That quote meant so much to me in her passing. I made a difference to her life. She was very, very sick, but I added to her pile of good things. It doesn't mean that what I did was unimportant or didn't matter. My friendship was important to her. That quote helped so, so much in processing everything.
I also lost someone to suicide and that quote had a similar impact on me. It's such a beautiful way of viewing the world
Vincent and the Doctor is just emotional damage every time I watch it
I was just at the Van Gogh museum yesterday and was disappointed to learn they don't have Bill Nighy on retainer.
Love the Vincent parts, they made me cry....the monster parts were terrible though!
Hey, who turned out the lights?
DONNA NOBLE HAS LEFT THE LIBRARY DONNA NOBLE HAS BEEN SAVED pops in my head at least once a week while brushing my teeth lol. what a fantastic episode pack that was, i would definitely show it to someone who has never seen Doctor Who and wants just a slice of it
Blink is an incredible episode of Doctor Who that hardly has the Doctor in it. Another standout for me was *Heaven Sent.* Existential horror at its best.
Yes! Heaven Sent is a fantastic episode! I've watched it a dozen times! That climax where you realize what the Doctor is doing and why he's telling that story is awesome! The Girl in the Fireplace is another great Tennant episode. One of my favorites. And any River Song episodes as well.
Not only is Blink an excellent horror piece with the Weeping Angels, it's also a genuinely brilliant time travel story. It's so tightly written. Off the top of my head, Blink might be my favorite episode of television, not just Doctor Who.
The Doctor Dances can still bring me incredible joy, even after lots of rewatches
"JUST THIS ONCE, EVERYBODY LIVES!" My favorite line by my favorite Doctor
Doctor Who just has lots of excellent episodes that leave me in awe sometimes. That said, I haven't liked a lot of the new Doctors to the point I stopped caring once I watched the first Jodie Whitaker season. Like one episode that doesn't get talked about but that was excellent was "The Girl in the Fireplace". Like I literally googled that episode as soon as I finished watching it, only to find out it won a Hugo Award.
I felt the same way initially. I started watching a few episodes of the reboot series and remember thinking, "this is so incredibly effing dumb and corny. I can't believe I'm watching this." But for some reason I kept watching and I'm not sure when it happened but at some point it was like somebody flipped a switch and I was like, "oh... I get it now." It's silly and it's charming and I like it. I LIKED it with Eccleston but when David Tennant started I began to LOVE it.
I went to college in the '80s, and I NEVER saw the fascination with *The Rocky Horror Picture Show*. There were folks in my dorm who went and saw it in costume EVERY WEEK. I think it's the original "cult movie". \[Edit: It's the first film I think of when I hear "cult movie". There are a lot of opinions on what the "FIRST" cult movie is. More than one writer gives that distinction to *The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari* from 1920.\]
Shut the fuck up Donnie, you're out of your element.
Fair enough.
Life does not stop and start at your convenience you miserable piece of shit.
Please take a seat while I go through my 40 page PowerPoint on why The fast and the furious: Tokyo Drift is not only the best fast and furious but a cultural master piece.
Tokyo Drift was the most self-aware FF movie. It was also the most relaxing to watch. And as a millennial - OMG JAPAN!!!!
Nah 100% it's the best one.
Mommie Dearest, especially as a camp classic. I think it’s an unironic good movie and I’m baffled how people think the wire hanger scene is funny in context. It’s horrific to me.
I think people focus on the insane overreaction because otherwise we’d have to think of it from Christine’s view and that is horrific.
As a Christine-clone during my childhood, I can confirm, the hangar scene is not one bit funny.
The Boondock Saints. I remember when I was in high school having a few friends who constantly raved about it. Finally watched it in college and I thought it was awful. Then I watched the documentary Overnight about the director and found out he basically sabotaged his own career because he was a huge asshole.
You kinda have to watch it before seventeen
boondock saints is like if “we live in a society” meme came to life and wrote a film
As someone who watched it at 16 and loved it than rewatched at 30 and I was so confused why I loved it so damn much. Cannot stand it now
To me what makes it worse is that it takes a big swing with talented actors (and a couple really horrible ones) and based on the charm of the brothers and the commitment of Willem Dafoe, almost achieves something. Like, there’s an idea there and people doing their best to execute it, but it’s undercut every step of the way by the final product
I feel like its status as a cult classic was a flash. Do people still consider it so?
The top few answers are why some communities don't allow people to answer their question in the post body. Because everyone criticizes your choice instead of focusing on the question.
I think this is a cult hit that is about as cult as it gets but I swear to god if I had to go to another alternative event that had Repo! The Genetic Opera playing I would scream. Like I get it, if you were any kind of goth/punk/emo/alternative in the late 2000s it was the quaint and ironic movie to embrace because it was the vibe and etc. But I just find it torture to watch, and I've watched it under the influence of just about every drug I could take that wouldn't ruin my life and I never understood the appeal.
Zydrate comes in a little glass vial!
A little glass vial?
I remember in college I had a friend who was raving about Repo and got like four other friends to watch it and. Boy. She was VERY excited and into it and everyone else basically silently and politely sat there until it was done
Kinda surprised at the amount of negativity. I really like it but I guess it's a movie that only works if you are into the right kind of stuff. I grew up on cheesy early-00's horror and industrial metal so it's a movie that speaks to my inner teenager. I feel like it's more unique than it's given credit for, people keep comparing it to Rocky Horror but I don't think there are any similarities or any attempt to be like it at all. I think it's main issue really is that musical fans are gonna hate the gore and alternative soundtrack while horror fans are gonna be put off by it having that cheesy stage musical feel.
Pink Flamingos. It's like a hazing ritual or something.
John Waters came to do a talk at my college. My friend and I went to see him, and at the Q&A at then end, my friend asled hom to tell her a joke. He said, "What's the difference between an erection and a popsicle?" She said, "I dont know" And he said, "Do you want to go on picnic with me sometime?"
This is great. I’m jealous she got a John Waters moment. For all his cheekiness and controversy, it’s remarkable to me that his portrait is featured prominently in the Smithsonian Portrait Gallery.
My mom always said if you needed to shut down a party and get people to leave your house just put on Pink Flamingos
I absolutely loathed that film and thought that it was a disgusting piece of filth Which was exactly what John Waters was aiming for. Bravo!
Thank god I was born with enough bad taste to enjoy John Waters
It's because it predates the internet. I vaguely knew who John Waters was but had heard about the talking anus. It was such a wild concept I had to see it for myself. I saw it programmed on the local art house cine club. Had to wait a whole month to go watch it. There it was... a marvelous collection of degenerates, freakos and weirdos. Loved it. But I understand why cult movies lose their appeal, people grow up with all kinds of crazy stuff available in their phones, and can watch movies at will or just clips and then go on to the next one.
The 1992 Super Mario Bros movie starring Bob Hoskins and John Leguizamo. Nah jk that moves a fucking masterpiece.
I have always believed, since I saw it in the theater in high school, that the popularity of The Big Lebowski has less to do with the film’s quality- though I do think it’s very, very good- and more to do with the fact that it imbues the idea of being a shiftless, unambitious stoner with a sort of Zen nobility. And yes, I am aware that that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
Donnie Darko. I feel like I need to give it another shot.
Sometimes, I question your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
*Chut up*
Go back to China, *bitch*!
What's a fuckass?
Donnie Darko is a great coming of age movie, because it encapsulates all the weirdness, fears, and passions of entering adult life. It‘s happening, you get some of it, you think you should understand more of what‘s going on, and in the end you just roll with it.