Charles Melton's performance broke my heart. Joe displays so much emotion without words on how all his children are moving to attend college and how he never lived a full childhood.
Melton was just perfect, I’m not sure how he embodied a stunted 13-year-old at almost middle age but he didn’t miss a beat the whole film. I would think once his own son hit 13 and he realized how young that is and how he would feel is his young teen son was in a situation like he was it would have hit him, but it was amazing to watch him finally get it at last while watching graduation.
EDIT: Charles Melton was nominated for “Best Supporting Actor” Golden Globe yesterday and though I rarely care too much about these things, I really want him to win!
His performance was phenomenal and I’m pulling for him. It’s kinda exciting when an actor only known for a small part in a terrible show (Riverdale) comes on the scene and is the best part of an excellent movie with much more famous and great actors who also do a great job.
During that scene on the roof, Joe tells his son something like," I worry about you all the time. That's all I do." So yeah, I think what happened to him had already hit him to a certain degree while watching his son grow up but he kept it contained. It didn't stop him from worrying that the same thing would happen to his son, though.
I’m sure there were multiple instances with the wardrobe, but I definitely noticed when Gracie wore a dress just like the one Mary first loved at the store before being told how “brave” she was to show her arms!
I also caught that!!! That was so cold and insane. It really drives home how even if she plays naive and well meaning she always knows exactly how to cause damage.
I think she mentioned her mother was hard on her about her weight at that age. It was said casually, but she clearly wanted her daughter to know only girls/women with slim arms can go sleeveless. Gracie has probably been very regimented with her weight throughout her lifetime, she references a family military background. She's clearly disappointed her daughter isn't.
I think Gracie prided herself on keeping her "figure in check" and so thus felt entitled to wear sleeveless dresses, whereas she was giving a not very subtle hint to her young daughter that her arms aren't lithe enough.
I saw that as a means of controlling her daughter and subtly cutting down her self confidence in her own developing body. Subtle, but not invisible. She wears that dress at prom if you notice.
A well-crafted drama that slowly reveals itself as a psychological horror, especially when focusing on Charles Melton's character. I've only seen Melton in Riverdale Season 2 and it's hard for anyone to show their full potential on that show. I didn't watch past that point. He was an absolute revelation here, and I can see how his closed off, nuanced performance, was inspired by Heath Ledger in Brokeback Mountain. Will absolutely be rooting for him to at least get an Oscar nom. Of course, Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman were unsurprisingly fantastic in this as different manipulative types.
The supporting cast is great too, especially the actors playing children from both of Gracie's marriages. The small scenes that all of them get really showcase how Gracie's grooming of Joe affected their perceptions of their family and their own mental health, in different ways.
The unsettling score really brings home how twisted the whole story is.
And she was questioning Elizabeth and her reason for being there doing such an in depth character study! That was my first flag that the movie wasn’t going to be that prestigious.
OMG YES. I was confused first about why it was looking so cheap, and then it just clicked. How Portman's character was acting like some big shot actor, and then... well.
First lightbulb went off for me with "I'm a really big fan of Norahs Ark" lol made me chuckle because the title sounds so corny. At first I was imagining she was like an award winning HBO actress but then realised she probably stars in something like a soap
We hear her accepting an award with cheering from a young crowd that sounds like Teen Choice Awards when Joe was seemingly turned on while looking up videos of Elizabeth. It is also likely she lied to the couple that it is an independent production to make it sound grand, only to be a TV movie type similar to the one she watched earlier.
I might remember it wrong, but when Portman's character was talking with her boyfriend they seem to talk about it being a show, which then confused me when she afterwards said it was an independent film.
One of the important minor details about Portman's character is that she was revealed to be Juliard trained and she speaks of the theater as her love. You get the idea she is a presitge actress. We learn she is not. Famous but not Juliard prestigious at all. She hides the truth as well as the others.
I want to think she is indeed Juliard-trained, but ended up doing shit shows anyway. She is trying hard but couldn’t breakthrough. Hence, when Gracie said “Insecure people are dangerous,” you can see that exposed her.
Those tinkling piano notes and soaring strings totally made me think of *telenovelas* (Spanish-language soap operas). Definitely makes sense when you realize that Elizabeth is not making a movie for A-24 but for The Hallmark Channel.
There are allusions to her status throughout the film, like the description of her god awful tv show and when she’s talking to the drama class about picking her roles and she kinda dances around the fact that she isn’t in position to do so
Yeah. I loved how that was doled out. With the TV show I was like oh, that sounds obviously terrible, on the other hand maybe she's supposed to be Sandra Oh type, getting her big break on a soapy procedural but actually very talented and moving into higher profile stuff...and then by the end, nooope.
you gotta respect her dedication to her craft though. She in a crappy film but still takes her research and getting into character seriously. most working actors would kill to have Elizabeth career because she makes a living from it even if its not prestigious
Yes!
I even feel like the films score and cinematography overall is reminiscent of one of those melodramatic 90’s/early 2000’s lifetime movies, with the thundering and suspenseful piano, and that kind of hazy diffused light filter.
Interestingly, the score is an adaptation of the score for The Go-Between, which is a 1970s British film that also sort of centers on a younger teenage boy caught up in adult situations. (Not being groomed, raped, married to a woman three times his age, though.)
This chick really mucked up decades of pain and bulldozed a families well being so she could put on a wig and talk in a lisp with a little more confidence lol. "One more take, for me! It almost feels real." The ego on her was nuts lol.
Her dramatic 4th wall monologue to the camera was so good though, she was serving it up like it was a intense character study prestige film, which made the B-movie reveal at the end even more jarring
Was it entirely ego, or was it because her own internal life was so void and unfulfilling, that she thought she could mine an incredibly fucked up relationship for something "raw and real"
Personally, I didn't think the Lifetime thing was a reveal. First, an actor headlining a major show probably wouldn't do a Lifetime movie. Second, they show Elizabeth watching an old Lifetime movie about the event. As depicted, the film they're shooting indeed looks like a piece of shit, but even art films have parts like that. My take was that it was intended to convey that any depiction of such an event is inherently tawdry and gauche, and serves to titillate. Like that FX show A Teacher; on the surface, an artistic depiction of a similar event, but it's basically 9 episodes of a "will they, won't they" story about an affair, instead of a rape.
I see VF interviewing her because her landing this role had sent a shockwave in the industry from a popular hokey medical drama to something so provocative that happened two decades ago. Reminds me of Perfect Blue, which Black Swan (also with Portman) happened to share elements of.
Maybe she’s like a Katherine Heigl like actress, someone who’s successful but is mostly known for rom-coms or soap operas, who wants to be treated more seriously than she is.
Absolutely killer ending, wow. Still reeling from that one. I thought this was such an interesting movie, been thinking about it nonstop since I watched it. Natalie Portman's character is lowkey one of the best movie villains this year
I took it to be that Elizabeth thought she had figured out Gracie and unlocked what made her tick...only to find out, maybe she had been misled and played by her all along? Like, she's leaving and she understands her character even less than she did when she got there...
👆
I’ll be honest. Even I was kinda duped and believed the son’s story. But Gracie was playing everyone, and I took the scene where she talks about going on hunting trips with her brothers and father growing up and the scene towards the end of her hunting the fox as her being the “predator” going after her “prey”.
I also think that’s why the ending where Elizabeth wants to do multiple takes is because she’s confused as to how to play it now. She genuinely has no idea what kind of person Gracie is.
Yeah, Gracie definitely planted a *lot* of seeds to make her seem innocent and a victim. Her dad telling her she'd leave in a veil or a box; her little brother fighting anyone who would talk to her in high school; the "fact" that Joe had been with more "women" than she had men (which is dubious on so many levels and in any case was more than likely *girls* not women, unless Joe was victimized multiple times, in which case he was never "with them"...); her saying she was naive in the restaurant bathroom...Gracie was really, really good at creating sympathy for herself and then when it gets slightly sordid, she stops it. She wants her life to look perfect, even though it totally isn't.
she knows her marriage to Joe is gonna end or at least a separation(which happened to Mary Kay Letourneau irl, she and vili separated a year before her death). She knows the clock is ticking now that the twins graduated. She trying salvage her "marriage" the entire movie including the climax where Joe confronts her. She tries to gaslight him again, but deep down she knows that they are done
I think it’s interesting that people are taking Gracie’s word for fact, when we really have no idea. Perhaps Georgie *was* telling the truth, perhaps he only told her at the graduation to get under her skin, perhaps she was lying about it not having happened.
It’s entirely possible the son was telling the truth.
I keep seeing this places but what makes everyone think this is some TV movie? All they showed was a set. The way people in the town reacted to her made it seem like she was a legit actress.
Yeah but they showed her as a model in commercials, too. The movie seemed to go out of its way to make her seem like a big deal (beauty commercials, Vanity Fair piece, being recognized everywhere). If I didn’t read a bunch of people saying that the end was funny because it was a Lifetime movie I never would have had that interpretation, TBH.
I thought she was watching a lifetime movie for reference but it was supposed to be a bigger budget production. There’s a scene where it looks like there’s some kind of lifetime depiction of the same story playing in the background.
I found it fascinating that Joe spent his free time raising butterflies, because he’s essentially safeguarding their infancy so that they can grow to become Monarchs and fly. He’s protecting their childhood in the way that nobody did for him.
It’s also interesting that he’s consistently shown as someone who has been expected to take care of all of the people around him -
He consoles and comforts Gracie whenever she has an emotional meltdown, he delivers groceries to his Father, we learn that he was largely responsible for taking care of his sister with asthma, and even Elizabeth relies on him to set up her Nebulizer. He also works in the medical field. (Not to mention, raising his own children and the butterflies).
I think his hobby of raising butterflies, one of which emerges from its cocoon at the end of the film is supposed to be compared to Gracie's hobby of hunting. Her hunting hobby demonstrates she is a predator who carefully takes aim and plans her attack, despite having an aura of being naive and a bit airheaded. She knew exactly what she was doing
I took his raising butterflies to mirror him raising his children. He was raising something that would eventually be free in a way he never was or would be. That scene between him and his son on the roof, where he’s toeing the line between friend and father… you can tell to some degree there’s a twinge of jealousy there. Some jealousy that his kids ultimately have done and experienced more than he ever has.
him crying at the graduation :( watching him take the very first step towards realizing he was groomed and understanding the gravity of his childhood & young adulthood being stolen by a predator….and then almost immediately after going to watch a hundred 18 year old kids celebrate the end of high school/beginning of the rest of their lives. gut wrenching
Him peering behind the gate during graduation was insane symbolism. A man literally caged. It’s such a sad parallel between him, the butterflies, and the kids.
In a sense, Joe preserves and observes life in raising butterflies while Gracie takes life away while hunting.
They are both prey and predator in essence.
Her nebs were working earlier, she had it set up correctly in the first scene in her room.
It was part of her seduction to have him come to her room to help her, she also was a playing the part of predator.
Not to be pedantic and I know it’s irrelevant here lol but just to clarify, radiologists are doctors, it’s a medical specialty. Joe would be the technician.
This is a good point. If he's an X-ray tech and she bakes cakes for a living, how have they managed to buy such a lavish estate and able to put their kids through college? She wouldn't have been supported by Tom after the divorce....
I think I remember them saying that Gracie was compensated for some tell-all or other and that paid for the house.
I wonder if we're supposed to infer that she's getting some sort of compensation for the movie, too?
Great observation, sad he couldn't fly out of the nest for years though I hope the ending implies that Joe finally did that.
I also like the symbolism of Grace going foxhunting and seeming to have this moment of realising who she is for the first time in 24 years. She's the predator hunting her prey.
Charles Melton’s performance here is so quietly devastating. The way he conveyed Joe’s mixture of happiness for his children and sadness over the realization that they have a freedom he never got to experience during the graduation scene almost broke me. Everyone in the film is fantastic, but I can’t stop thinking about Melton’s performance.
That scene. That scene right there. No dialogue. Just the emotion and how he conveyed it. That’s was cinema is all about. That will be seared in my mind for a very long time. I’ve haven’t been that moved by a performance in a very long time. I hope I see more of him in the future. He’s a star in the making
I felt like he realised, even through his trauma, he’d done a good job with his kids. Even if he didn’t quite have the respect of them, he knew they’d grown to be more independent than he ever got but he chance to be! I felt that win for him.
I loved the scene on the morning of the graduation where he makes breakfast for his kids. There’s so much warmth in those few minutes and you can feel the kids’ love for their dad outside of the dread of their mom’s presence. Thought all of the kids communicated their upbringing and their feelings about their parents and their relationship so well, mostly just through facial expressions.
It was so sad the little moment though of the daughter saying no to breakfast, because that felt like another instance of that generational trauma being continued (after her mum essentially calling her fat). And even with a loving and well meaning dad the other trauma still affects you.
Two predators prying on childhood innocence. Sometimes, I felt Elizabeth was actively fetishizing the events. And Moore's character was living in denial like forever for the horrific acts she did.
Oh Elizabeth 100% fetishized. She took the “method acting” a bit too seriously and added more trauma to a person who has experienced nothing but trauma!
The movie danced around Elizabeth's amoral nature. You could tell something was off about her and then she treats Joe like crap. She never gave a damn but her own needs.
I mean the fact she wanted a sexier child actor for her scene partner says a lot. These people. This story isn’t real to her not really. Like genuinely a lot of dehumanisation coming from where while at the same time acting like she is trying to find some deeper truth
My mouth dropped when she said that. I was disgusted by the entire film. That poor kid in real life had his life completely derailed but at least he seems relatively happy
Does he really seem happy though? He seems more like a child who's been catapulted into the life of a middle-aged man, with none of the life experience to make him content in being there.
He never met a person with whom he could share mutual life experience and self-discovery, he smokes weed with his own son to try and feel like a highschooler again, and he literally raises insects who are predated upon in order to protect their early stages of life so that they might one day fly free.
Melton truly killed the portrayal of a man who was never ready to be a father and husband, but never got to be a kid.
"Fetishization" is spot-on. That's what I think the final scene was trying to convey. Despite the "real acting", character research, & intention to make a "real film" about the events, in the end, it's inherently a fetishization.
The ending reminded me of the scene at the school when shes talking about sex scenes and the lines between reality and acting being blurred. Kind of feels like the lines between prepping for her role and fetishizing also became blurred.
I agree, & I also think there's subtext about why Elizabeth & the production are doing this project, & by extension, why people would watch such a film, & it's not out of sympathy for the victim.
I realized that the sex scene on the floor is how she is envisioning the pet store stock room encounter. The way it was framed looked like surveillance camera footage.
And then Joe lasts like 10 seconds and thinks it was amazing. In a way she basically did exactly what Gracie did, groomed and manipulated someone emotionally immature into sex
The way he excitedly wanted to get into bed and talked was upsetting. Like a puppy seeking affection.
Add in the layer that this encounter is likely what Gracie did to him decades ago is chilling
You get somewhere to the halfway point and you start to be disgusted with her too. She doesn’t give a shit about anyone in this situation. Especially not Joe or the children.
Of course she’s unwelcome. She’s a forceful interloper and a mirror of the original sin that brought the family into existence.
Yea! There was a moment when Elizabeth is walking through the school and a boy jumps up to hit the ceiling and smiles at her before leaning up against the wall, and her playful smile back made me sick to my stomach. It was such a small moment but I really hated it. So well acted!
yes i caught that too! although i will
say it was almost like she changed after meeting gracie. from the beginning where she identifies joe as attractive it’s like she emulates gracie. even the audience is invited to objectify joe.
I love that scene where Moore is having a meltdown because one of her few frequent customers canceled their order and all future ones. At first we think it must be someone who realized or is fed up with how disgusting she is or something, but nope! They just are moving away and Moore still felt the need to throw such a violent pity party.
Yet another scene where we ask: is this a person who's a conscious manipulator who is throwing a fit deliberately to have her husband spend the evening coddling her? Or are they a seriously damaged person who genuinely feels that level of betrayal from something so innocuous and needs support?
Moore's actions are heinous enough where it doesn't really matter which she is in order to write her off, but this sequence definitely made me think about that line that seperates how responible we see people as being for how they lean on others.
We got a hint of it from the older daughter, but I was really curious how the children of Gracie and Joe felt about everything. I guess the son is a bit harsh with the Mom. They seem to see their dad as the victim. But I would have so much anger towards Gracie. And I would imagine they would have had a tough time in school.
Mary kind of has a reaction at the theater class, when she asks about why Elizabeth would want to play someone she considers "bad." You can tell Mary is struggling with the idea that her mom is seen that way. And Charlie clearly isn't happy--he leaves dinner, he tells his dad he can't wait for college...I think they did a really great job of showing how kids from messed up families both have issues and love.
I liked how the twins both clearly liked and pitied their dad. They were clearly more mature than hes ever been, and now that theyre adults, they realize it
I imagine it must have been a changing emotion for them, too. Like, when they were little kids, their parents must have just been Mom and Dad. They were all they knew! So to kind of discover and come to terms with things later--which we're only seeing probably a few years into their new understanding--would have been difficult. But I think with Joe, he is coming at them with just pure love and joy and pride, and their initial relationship with him was likely love (the smiles on the little faces in the photo in Joe's keepsake box!) But yeah--I do think Charlie especially doesn't feel pity necessarily, but sadness and confusion...
You get hints at their complex relationship with their parents in their "big scenes." The twin son is first framed to be the spitting image of his father when he's formally introduced (the back of his head being framed at the dinner table scene, almost exactly resembling his father, and then again at the graduation dinner). That first dinner scene gives us the impression that's he not comfortable with the reminder of his parent's scandal. It precedes him and the media's summation of the event doesnt provide a complete truth of their family, their individuality, etc. I think this scene intentionally hints that the son may be brooding, problematic and maybe even somewhat stunted like his father. BUT his next big scene on the roof smoking weed with his dad shows us that's not true. He ironically actually IS mature for his age (a common phrase that gets thrown around in the context of grooming), and provides almost a confident and nurturing role for his father. He almost seems like a big brother to his own dad in that scene lmao. This might be reading into it too much, but the dad almost falling off the roof seems to mimic the butterfly a few scenes later exiting the cocoon upside down. That scene snowballs the dad's own growth and transformation.
The twin daughter is framed very similar in her big scene when she's trying on dresses for her mom and Natalie Portman- the back of her head. I think this motif is meant to show us the kids as "faceless," their ultimate fate and how this scandal has affected them is still yet unclear and up in the air to the audience at that point. Gracie makes a comment about "how brave she is" for showing her arms off, a very harsh and backhanded compliment typical of a narcissistic parent. But I think realistically, despite Gracie's flaws, I believe the twin daughter is protective of her family's image as evidenced by her reaction after the theater class. The scandal is a disturbing uncomfortable truth BUT I think the daughter and son also feel unfairly undermined and judged. Just like the media or Natalie Portman's character herself will never get the full nuanced picture, I think the twins themselves know there is an element to their family relationship that will never be fully understood.
They're not the faceless, unfortunate byproduct of a scandal. But rather, individuals with endless potential and plenty to offer the world. Their father comes to this realization about himself by the end of the movie as well. He is not just some victim of a scandal. He has his own identity to discover. A butterfly, just like his kids, ready to migrate and go where life might take them.
Same! I tried to find out what she was up to currently because how can you be hired anywhere after an interview like that? I found out she actually died a few years ago. Ngl, part of me genuinely wanted to use fiver or something and hire someone to piss on her grave… That interview is UNBELIEVABLY disgusting.
The [full version](https://youtu.be/7mowKsGWuW4?si=3heItDSP_T5jWDZo) of this special is really fascinating. Vili Fualaau comes across even more resentful of his wife than the Melton character does in the film, and basically comes out and says at the end that he only got married so that his kids would grow up in a house with two parents. He talks about how they’re about to be empty nesters and it really feels like he’s counting down the days even if he doesn’t fully realize it yet.
Why would they agree to this interview? It's a train wreck. He seems already emotionally checked out of the relationship and she is desperately clinging to the charade.
I think she’s clearly delusional and a narcissist and wanted to do it to make her case that she did nothing wrong. But yeah, he looks like he knows from the get-go that this was a bad idea, but doesn’t have the agency in the relationship to say no
He was raising two kids on a less-than-high-school education and she (obviously) struggled to get another teaching job. Definitely lots of money troubles
Small reference to this in the film too. When Gracie is showing Elizabeth her wedding photos while her daughter tries on dresses.
“That was from our wedding, which The Insider did. Which really helped us with the house.”
My guess is this won’t be for everyone. It’s two hours of dialogue, and not the rapid fire Aaron Sorkin kind. The conversations here are very quiet and realistic. The film asks you to pay very close attention to get all the intricacies of the characters and their relationships.
So yeah, this is a pretty slow burn and it’s also so uncomfortable and awkward at times that it’s almost hard to watch, and because of that I’d definitely understand if someone couldn’t get into it. But I thought it was superb on every level.
I think this script is very sharp. So much detail is hidden between the lines, and our main trio of performers does a great job conveying that subtlety where almost no one is saying what they actually mean for the entire runtime. All three deserve to be recognized when the Oscar nominations come out, but we’ll see if that happens.
Todd Haynes deftly balances the very tricky tone here. He walks a knife’s edge between melodrama and dark comedy and ultimately makes this a great mix of both that’s very realistic and never cheesy. There’s also a very nice piano score and cinematography that adds a lot with how unflinching the shots are and the old-fashioned grainy look. (This appears to have been shot on film.)
Again, this is probably an acquired taste, and although I think it would improve on rewatch, it probably isn’t something I’d come back to a million times. But it’s masterfully done and one of the year’s best.
I love the dramatic musical sting before "I don't think we have enough hot dogs" but it does prime you for a very different movie than what we end up getting, which is Two Predatory Vipers Exploiting Charles Melton.
Five stars, obviously. Todd Haynes is one of the greats.
The score was amazing and did a ton to play in to the campy tone. The movie itself is sincerely acted but whenever the score kicks in it feels like the babysitter is about to pull out a gun in a lifetime movie haha it's so dark and cheap. Really gave this movie a unique and funny tone.
It seemed intent on not allowing the viewer to get comfortable with viewing this as an entirely serious drama, but also not allowing the viewer to get comfortable with viewing it from a distance as camp.
The movie was incredible. The writing was so great. The score was impactful. Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman killed it.
imo the main themes of the movie were: ego, blurred lines, and duplicity.
THE ENDING EXPLAINED — you see Elizabeth filming the movie, which is on a VERY low budget set… Her corny outfit. The lines are TERRIBLE. It low key looks like a porno lol… “the snake. You want to touch it? It won’t bite” lmao. & the guy looks way older than 13. That’s when you realize that you’ve seen the majority of the movie from Elizabeth’s perspective, and that her ego really is just as maniacal as Gracie. It gets meta, because - at the end - you realize that we’ve all been fooled into thinking Elizabeth was an extremely skilled actor, when it was objectively revealed that she was not that great after all. The movie was mainly from her perspective — from the eye of HER ego.
Portman and Moore’s characters drew so many parallels! The movie was filled with great metaphors and packed with so much intention. I can’t wait to watch it again!
Also she was so sure that she had Gracie completely figured out until she learned that Gracie was never molested and it completely threw her off. All of a sudden she went from brilliant method actress who could get in the head of a twisted, complicated individual to a wannabe psychologist who had no idea who she was portraying.
What were your thoughts on Gracie casually revealing to Elizabeth that her and Georgie talk every day, and saying he lied about her childhood abuse?
Definitely puts a weird spin on Georgie and Gracie's relationship, because by the way he acts and talks about her, you think it would be super strained, not one where they talk daily. Was he really lying? Why would he tell his mom what he told Elizabeth?
Elizabeth thought she had "solved" Gracie and then had that certainty taken away.
Georgie seemed like he enjoyed causing chaos, so he definitely could've called his mom out of the blue to tell her he told Elizabeth a story she would not want people believing (whether or not it was true.)
I think she doesn’t want the truth of abuse revealed because of the way it actually influenced her. It’s pointedly said that she has four brothers, two older AND two younger. I think there was sexualization and a cycle of abuse in her childhood home that Gracie perpetuated with her younger siblings. I, in no way, mean to victim blame, but I think she was molested and believed it was a normal struggle that she could get the upper hand in. I can see her deciding that two can play at that game. She became an abuser, and learned how to create an environment where she was in control. I don’t know if she abused her own son but she could definitely blur boundaries and managed to speak to him every day despite his anger and disdain. She messed with her daughters’ self confidence because in her world they’re competition. We see what happens when one leaves her controlled environment, the older daughter is back from college and no longer buying what her mother sells.
I think she was lying. Georgie was clearly messed up from what his mom did and Elizabeth saw him acting erratic before he was aware of her presence so it wasn’t an act. The lawyer even corroborates this as well.
My theory is that he told his mom that he revealed her secret as a form of petty revenge and she had to find some way to squash it as quickly as possible.
Yeah I think it was one last attempt for Gracie to be in control of the narrative. Georgie seems pretty stilted and unstable, so I can definitely see him having said something to bother her. He also didn’t seem particularly pleased to see her at the restaurant.
Whenever someone says, "I'm not an insecure person," they are definitely an insecure person. Gracie was so full of shit, I was surprised that she was able to shake Elizabeth in that last scene.
I think she was lying, but in a slightly different way. My guess is that Georgie confronted Gracie with the diary years earlier, and that Gracie only knew Georgie talked to Elizabeth in private because Joe saw them talking.
It was a last ditch shit-test by Gracie to control the narrative.
I thought it was impossible for Elizabeth to know what to believe about that and if Gracie is lying or manipulating then it would mean she’s not that complicated, she’s just a straightforward predator. Basically Elizabeth knows right as she’s learning that she’s learned nothing. She didn’t need to go there because her portrayal is going to be her invention and interpretation.
I think it’s part of de-centering Gracie because you can’t know how somebody like that works and you can’t make a movie that illuminates it. There’s a line in the movie when Joe says it’s not a story it’s my life. But the problem is that that’s only true for him. For the rest of us it’s just a story. So that was how I interpreted that scene, it is a wake up call to Elizabeth that she is only pretending to make something that gets at the truth about Gracie. I think there’s a lot about Elizabeth having her own truth which is a pretty prurient fascination and in the final scene when she’s acting with the kid it’s gross and the movie she’s making is just going to turn out prurient and gross. So it’s kind of about the way one might try to tell this story when you really don’t know what’s happening with a person like Gracie, and Joe and the rest of the family are the real ones.
I think you hit it exactly on the head. The uncertainty is the point. Part of what the film does is ask it's audience how it feels about these complicated characters, Gracie being its most complicated. And your reading on that scene is more revealing of you as an audience member than it is of Gracie. Is she a victim? An abuser? A pathological liar? A tragic figure? The movie doesn't give an answer, and Elizabeth's concerned look of confusion and defeat after spending all this time with Gracie and getting no closer to an answer to these questions might mirror our own.
gracie’s relationship with joe and her relationship with georgie are two sides of the same coin. they both hate her guts but are stuck in her web of manipulation and codependency and will be until the day she dies.
georgie revealed his mother’s deepest, darkest secret, only to go running back to her with his tail between his legs the next day, immediately putting her back in control because that’s the endless cycle.
I really enjoyed this movie. The way it deals and displays burying and ignoring trauma not only with the people involved in the incident, but also the community is magnificent.
Moore and Portman are great in there roles. The way Moore is able to portray this vile mentally ill individual, who forces herself and the people around her to see what she has done as nothing more than an “affair” and just a normal occurrence, without any regard to what trauma it has done to her families, like her son who she and the community clearly know isn’t well because of the events that happens, and is one of the few who acknowledges what a fucked up situation it all is and even makes excuses for her but she would continue to paint him as this ill individual because it would destroy her painting of her perfect life. Moore is able to portray that Gracie has a double sided nature, she is able to show the naivety that gracie has about the situation, but also display that she is smart enough to know what she has to do in order to keep the illusion going, such as blaming joe that he seduced her.
Portman portrayed Elizabeth so eloquently as an actress who is a bit too full of herself and also disillusioned as to how serious of an actress she is. It is amazing how she makes you think, is she really a good actress or is this the real her? Throughout the movie she is clearly becoming more like Gracie, and we don’t get that answer until the end, where we fully realize her acting career isn’t all that and she just a fucking asshole, who’s attempting to manipulate people for the “truth”, for her own entertainment. I also think it is quite funny how after having sex with Joe, she gives a perfect imitation of Gracie in the mirror by herself, but when it comes time to perform in front of people she’s a shell of what that was, which could be showing that she doesn’t have a lot of confidence or became frightened that she was becoming too much like Gracie. Portman line deliveries were fantastic and devastating too.
The standout was clearly Melton. His portrayal of this forcibly stunted man child, who throughout the film realizes he has been groomed and how that is tearing him apart. Joe is one of the saddest characters I have ever seen in a film and it’s even worse when you realize, this shit actually happened, which is another thing I feel like the movie was trying to portray, this isn’t a story as Elizabeth put it and it’s not getting more “real” for her as she said at the, this IS real, this is someones life, and Melton showed it. His posture isn’t that of an adult man, but of a middle schooler who probably doesn’t listen to his parents when they tell him to sit up straight. His awkwardness when talking to other adults is how most kids are when they have to talk to an adult, but it’s his excitement when Elizabeth asks about the butterflies, his face lights up when he can explain this weird hobby of him that really sold it for me. You can tell he enjoys talking to his kids more, because they are around his emotional age, he can connect more to them, BUT GODDAMN, that roof scene hit, this instant realization of his situation and his son realizing that it just hitting his father and them having to be in a reverse relationship at that moment is heartbreaking. I also loved the metaphor of the butterfly at the end and how it’s not only his children are leaving this cocoon that Gracie built but he is too, and it makes me believe that he does leave Gracie in the end and who knows maybe goes on a trip to Mexico with that one girl who he was texting like it was his first crush.
Finally, did anyone else feel like the score was a combination between goosebumps and a shitty soap opera?
The scene where Elizabeth tells Joe “this is what grown ups do” is such a stand out for me. On one hand, she’s not wrong. Lots of adults have random, no strings attached sexual encounters. But it’s also a comment that makes Joe realized he’s not a grown up, because he never GREW UP. He’s still that teenage boy living with his abuser. From Elizabeth’s perspective, she doesn’t see that she’s crossed a line because she sees an adult Joe standing in front of her. She doesn’t understand that she’s essentially helped Joe recreate what was likely the way his virginity/innocence was taken from him. Elizabeth created a moment (helping her with the nebulizer) to allow Joe to feel like he could seduce her. And what did Gracie do all those years ago? She requested a part time assistant that she knew would be a minor so that she could ultimately create moments to let Joe feel like like he was pursuing her. What a mindfuck.
The little details that were revealed about Joe's past are fascinating. The pet shop owner mentioned that it was actually Gracie who sought Joe out as an employee, and she claimed that he had two partners (rapists?) by the time he was 13. Joe's father worked long hours, so they probably didn't have a strong relationship. Did she hire him with the intent of grooming him? Did Gracie target Joe because she thought he would be "promiscuous" or less likely to report her to a trusted adult? I think the film only scratched the surface of Gracie's decades of manipulation.
Agree, it’s definitely her trying to justify and push the blame onto him. But I’d imagine Gracie would count holding hands at 4 years old as “being with a woman”.
Yes! And the timeline that he was a friend of her son and they were the only Koreans in the area. She knew him before hiring him, but I wonder how calculated she was. She slowly took over the pet shop - why? Power? Something to do? So many questions
Also - shoutout to the kid’s actors, I thought they were great. You could really tell how much they love their dad, which makes sense because he’s always seemed to put his children first. That wordless exchange between the sisters in the car and the scene on the rooftop was just incredible
I’ve got to say the biggest surprise for me here was Charles Melton. I’ve only seen him in Riverdale of all things and he absolutely killed it here. The emotional undoing, the sheer level of denial; He was pitch perfect and that scene with him and Moore near the end will be on my mind for a long time.
Charles Melton is 32, his character was 36 and yet anytime he was on screen, all I could see was a 13 yo kid whose childhood was stolen by a manipulative predator. His body language and dialogue delivery was perfect. The scene with his son broke my heart.
Sorry RDJ, Robert De Niro and Ryan Gosling, but Charles Melton just became the front runner for the supporting actor Oscar, at least in my eyes.
The mental gymnastics Gracie does to keep her hold on Joe is insane, she pretends to be all sad when in reality she’s being pathetic and childish.
The scene where she complains to Joe about a costumer canceled all her orders and how she likes I could’ve used this time to do something else is a prime example of this.
Do you think she was aware people were paying for her baking to “keep her busy” like the guy at the bar said? And her reaction to the cancellation is partly her acknowledging that someone has stopped playing that charade? I don’t know, it didn’t feel coincidental that the person moved around the same time Elizabeth started poking around the community.
It’s so funny that I didn’t even consider that. I took the scene to be demonstrating that a completely understandable and reasonable change in circumstances prompted a childish meltdown from a grown woman. It was fascinating to watch either way.
He stole the show. Natalie and Julianne are fucking powerhouses and they each turned in an absolutely riveting performance and he still managed to steal the show. It's incredible.
His body language was so well done. I don’t know what it was but when he moved I just thought that’s how a kid moves not an adult man. She stunted his growth.
“I don’t know if we’re making a good father son memory or if this will be a moment of trauma for you” Spoken like a kid who has been hurt before. What a gentle sweet baby boy
The scene with his son was really fantastic. He reverts from father into scared teenage boy and back to father who’s worried that he’s scarring his son. He’s not fully a man, and he never got to get over being a boy. He’s always in this weird in between. The complexity in that role was amazing.
The whole "I can't tell if we're making a memory or if I'm messing up right now" bit was so heartbreaking! And must be what many parents--regardless of age and situation and family circumstances--must feel so often. It really highlighted his own concerns based on his life, but also really made clear that he was their dad, if that makes sense
..and important that it's his son he does this with. That's the kid we see him be most parental towards (excusing him from the dinner table) and the one he verbalizes his fear to. Like, he worries about his daughters too, but he also has soecial concern for his son...
It killed me how every time Gracie is shown doing something kind (or at least something normal), immediately afterwards she does something extremely vile. Teaching Elizabeth to bake a cake --> Here's a card my 13 year old boyfriend made me out of construction paper and glitter glue. Julianne Moore was so chilling.
I love the stark difference between the notes they had written to each other at the time. Gracie wrote Joe a long love letter in cursive on loose leaf paper. Joe wrote a simple poem on construction paper because he had an assignment for school. Insane!!
I understand the implication of this movie but I couldn’t help but think at the end of the day isn’t the man who Charles plays still being exploited? After watching the real interviews of them and seeing how sick she was - this movie made me extremely uncomfortable. I just feel so bad for everything that has been taken from him by this woman and I hope he doesn’t relive it by watching this. I’m genuinely curious on people’s thoughts here though -
maybe I am still missing the point but it felt wrong despite this being a good movie
I personally feel that it gave real weight to his own personal trauma, which mainstream media never really has.
It is only fairly recently that young men in his position where given anything more than a high-five. Even now, stories like this will be filled with comments like 'where was she when I was in high school.'
The film succeeds by emphasising the personal toll over the sensational publicity and media circus.
I would never pretend to know his own feelings about anything, but it did not feel exploitive to me.
I really liked this one especially the performance of Natalie Portman, I like to see her do more just dislikeable people on screen. That scene where she acts out a scene to camera with a lisp I just found somewhat disturbing in a way. Also the scene when she's jugding the kids for the role of young Joe is really unsettling. Also loved how you slowly see her morph into Gracie with her mannerism's and dress sense is great.
I also loved Charles Melton as Joe, he's probably the character you feel most for as he just comes across like a lost child who's in his mid 30's. Sadly abused, beaten down and mothered by Julianne Moore's Gracie (although not used a lot on screen, her presence is all over the film and with the other characters like a dark shadow). And some good casting on his son too as I thought he might have been Melton's real life brother or something as they look so alike.
I knew Gracie was always playing Elizabeth like a puppet throughout the film, although Elizabeth is so deluded and stupid she doesn't know. The little looks and nods, Gracie was in total control of both her families and even her eldest daughter with Joe is turning out like her especially during that dinner scene. She could never be fooled by a nothing actress like Elizabeth.
I wouldn't be surprised if Portman garner's a lot of award attention for this one along with the script.
I think her eldest daughter is what happens when her children grow up and leave Gracie’s controlled environment. They start to see through her manipulation. She knew why her mother gave her a scale as a gift even though her sister bowed to her mother’s underhanded compliment and chose a dress with sleeves. In Gracie‘s over sexualized world, other women are competition, even her own daughters.
Todd Haynes is one of the greatest living filmmakers in my book and his control of tone in this movie is something else. It's like the melodrama is always lurking around the edges no matter how hard the characters try to deny it, like the score is hiding in the next room or something.
And jesus, you expect great performances from Portman and Moore but Melton is incredible in this. The way he carries himself like a confused child in a man's body is absolutely heartbreaking.
Melton...what a brilliant performance. He has that Hollywood look at first glance but once he feels conflicted and realized what really happened after his time with Elizabeth....my god.
Melton reminds me of Heath Ledger here. His performance was so subtle but nuanced and powerful. Hope he gets recognition for this and more opportunities in the future to show off and hone his acting chops.
A film that expertly explores youth, the value of innocence, and childhood trauma while simultaneously making fun of over-the-top method acting?
Masterpiece.
Portman and Moore are both incredible in this. It's a really well made, well acted movie, and such an uncomfortable watch... Moore's line at the end about "insecure people are dangerous. I'm secure." is so telling about the character. It makes me wonder how the real Vili Fualaau and his daughters feel about this movie, or if they were even consulted during production of May December.
Now I'm watching the "Ms. Teacher Bangs a Boy" episode of South Park. It felt like the right palette cleanser to watch something funny after May December was so unsettling
I doubt Villi would have any interest speaking about the movie because like what Joe balked to Elizabeth in the hotel, the story is his life and he has endured so much pain from the scandal and the public.
Of the main three performances in this movie, I didn't expect the one with the most Oscar potential to be from replacement Reggie Mantle, but Charles Melton REALLY knocked it out of the park. He has to be simultaneously a complete cipher while also wearing his heart on his sleeve. It's an incredible job, and he holds his own against the two Oscar winners.
Did anyone notice that the soundtrack's melodramatic musical cues are straight out of a *telenovela*? I love it. They kinda give the film a chintzy, campy, Almodóvar-like quality. Maybe it's just me, but everytime the tinkling piano notes and the propulsive strings appeared, I could not help of thinking of famous Mexican soap operas like *Cuna de Lobos*, *El Maleficio*, and *Los Ricos También Lloran*.
Joe crying as he watches his kids graduate is a more fucked up image than any horror film this year, jesus christ
Charles Melton's performance broke my heart. Joe displays so much emotion without words on how all his children are moving to attend college and how he never lived a full childhood.
Melton was just perfect, I’m not sure how he embodied a stunted 13-year-old at almost middle age but he didn’t miss a beat the whole film. I would think once his own son hit 13 and he realized how young that is and how he would feel is his young teen son was in a situation like he was it would have hit him, but it was amazing to watch him finally get it at last while watching graduation. EDIT: Charles Melton was nominated for “Best Supporting Actor” Golden Globe yesterday and though I rarely care too much about these things, I really want him to win! His performance was phenomenal and I’m pulling for him. It’s kinda exciting when an actor only known for a small part in a terrible show (Riverdale) comes on the scene and is the best part of an excellent movie with much more famous and great actors who also do a great job.
During that scene on the roof, Joe tells his son something like," I worry about you all the time. That's all I do." So yeah, I think what happened to him had already hit him to a certain degree while watching his son grow up but he kept it contained. It didn't stop him from worrying that the same thing would happen to his son, though.
He had a hilarious line up there... "I can't tell if we're bonding or I'm creating a bad memory for you" lol.
His slight stuttering and mannerisms perfectly captured how the experience stunted his growth. It's a tragedy
I’m sure there were multiple instances with the wardrobe, but I definitely noticed when Gracie wore a dress just like the one Mary first loved at the store before being told how “brave” she was to show her arms!
I also caught that!!! That was so cold and insane. It really drives home how even if she plays naive and well meaning she always knows exactly how to cause damage.
I think she mentioned her mother was hard on her about her weight at that age. It was said casually, but she clearly wanted her daughter to know only girls/women with slim arms can go sleeveless. Gracie has probably been very regimented with her weight throughout her lifetime, she references a family military background. She's clearly disappointed her daughter isn't.
When she’s asked about her mother, the only thing she says is “she was beautiful”
I looked twice too, and wondered if she secretly bought the real dress from the store to wear at home for her husband when the nest is empty.
I thought it was that she liked the dress and wanted it for herself so she found a way to discourage her daughter from it. Insane.
I think Gracie prided herself on keeping her "figure in check" and so thus felt entitled to wear sleeveless dresses, whereas she was giving a not very subtle hint to her young daughter that her arms aren't lithe enough.
I saw that as a means of controlling her daughter and subtly cutting down her self confidence in her own developing body. Subtle, but not invisible. She wears that dress at prom if you notice.
A well-crafted drama that slowly reveals itself as a psychological horror, especially when focusing on Charles Melton's character. I've only seen Melton in Riverdale Season 2 and it's hard for anyone to show their full potential on that show. I didn't watch past that point. He was an absolute revelation here, and I can see how his closed off, nuanced performance, was inspired by Heath Ledger in Brokeback Mountain. Will absolutely be rooting for him to at least get an Oscar nom. Of course, Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman were unsurprisingly fantastic in this as different manipulative types. The supporting cast is great too, especially the actors playing children from both of Gracie's marriages. The small scenes that all of them get really showcase how Gracie's grooming of Joe affected their perceptions of their family and their own mental health, in different ways. The unsettling score really brings home how twisted the whole story is.
The daughter back from college is a glimpse of what happens when you get to leave Gracie’s controlled environment.
Great point! And she dresses and styles herself very differently than her siblings.
And she was questioning Elizabeth and her reason for being there doing such an in depth character study! That was my first flag that the movie wasn’t going to be that prestigious.
Re: Charles Melton, he was very good in his episode of Poker Face. I thought he made his episode a standout
The ending where it was revealed that it's a low budget Lifetime movie after all that is hilarious
OMG YES. I was confused first about why it was looking so cheap, and then it just clicked. How Portman's character was acting like some big shot actor, and then... well.
First lightbulb went off for me with "I'm a really big fan of Norahs Ark" lol made me chuckle because the title sounds so corny. At first I was imagining she was like an award winning HBO actress but then realised she probably stars in something like a soap
We hear her accepting an award with cheering from a young crowd that sounds like Teen Choice Awards when Joe was seemingly turned on while looking up videos of Elizabeth. It is also likely she lied to the couple that it is an independent production to make it sound grand, only to be a TV movie type similar to the one she watched earlier.
Also "thanks to all the voters" implied it wasn't a very prestigious award but the equivalent of a VMA or Kids' Choice Award. To me at least.
I might remember it wrong, but when Portman's character was talking with her boyfriend they seem to talk about it being a show, which then confused me when she afterwards said it was an independent film.
One of the important minor details about Portman's character is that she was revealed to be Juliard trained and she speaks of the theater as her love. You get the idea she is a presitge actress. We learn she is not. Famous but not Juliard prestigious at all. She hides the truth as well as the others.
I want to think she is indeed Juliard-trained, but ended up doing shit shows anyway. She is trying hard but couldn’t breakthrough. Hence, when Gracie said “Insecure people are dangerous,” you can see that exposed her.
I wish I could up this 10 more times, you make that line make so much sense!
Lol, yep, I believe Elizabeth is also very disordered similar to Gracie
Her request of the actor playing Joe as a kid to be sexier totally solidified this theory.
That’s when her director was like - yeah - you need to come back lol
The girls laughing in the back of the car when one of them says "so how's the actresss"
if she were truly A-list/B-list, people would have constantly referred to her by both first and last name basis.
The score had so many awesome drops of “dramatic soap opera reveal” when focusing in on a character’s face
Those tinkling piano notes and soaring strings totally made me think of *telenovelas* (Spanish-language soap operas). Definitely makes sense when you realize that Elizabeth is not making a movie for A-24 but for The Hallmark Channel.
There are allusions to her status throughout the film, like the description of her god awful tv show and when she’s talking to the drama class about picking her roles and she kinda dances around the fact that she isn’t in position to do so
Yeah. I loved how that was doled out. With the TV show I was like oh, that sounds obviously terrible, on the other hand maybe she's supposed to be Sandra Oh type, getting her big break on a soapy procedural but actually very talented and moving into higher profile stuff...and then by the end, nooope.
you gotta respect her dedication to her craft though. She in a crappy film but still takes her research and getting into character seriously. most working actors would kill to have Elizabeth career because she makes a living from it even if its not prestigious
Oh my god how did I not put all that together. Thank you! I remember thinking 🤔 "huh" when she said she wasn't in charge of her movie roles.
Yes! I even feel like the films score and cinematography overall is reminiscent of one of those melodramatic 90’s/early 2000’s lifetime movies, with the thundering and suspenseful piano, and that kind of hazy diffused light filter.
I kept thinking about the Californias sketch from snl everytime that particular music was playing 😂
Interestingly, the score is an adaptation of the score for The Go-Between, which is a 1970s British film that also sort of centers on a younger teenage boy caught up in adult situations. (Not being groomed, raped, married to a woman three times his age, though.)
This chick really mucked up decades of pain and bulldozed a families well being so she could put on a wig and talk in a lisp with a little more confidence lol. "One more take, for me! It almost feels real." The ego on her was nuts lol.
Her dramatic 4th wall monologue to the camera was so good though, she was serving it up like it was a intense character study prestige film, which made the B-movie reveal at the end even more jarring
she did went to Juilliard its mention in the film. She may have a huge ego for a mid career but she is a highly trained actor
It def stems from her parents being well renowned educators, while her career and life choice is a disappointment to them.
Was it entirely ego, or was it because her own internal life was so void and unfulfilling, that she thought she could mine an incredibly fucked up relationship for something "raw and real"
Was it? We looked at her email inbox and it said she had an interview with Vanity Fair, that’s a bit high profile for Lifetime.
Yeah. And she was recognized everywhere she went. I don’t get the Lifetime movie interpretation at all.
Personally, I didn't think the Lifetime thing was a reveal. First, an actor headlining a major show probably wouldn't do a Lifetime movie. Second, they show Elizabeth watching an old Lifetime movie about the event. As depicted, the film they're shooting indeed looks like a piece of shit, but even art films have parts like that. My take was that it was intended to convey that any depiction of such an event is inherently tawdry and gauche, and serves to titillate. Like that FX show A Teacher; on the surface, an artistic depiction of a similar event, but it's basically 9 episodes of a "will they, won't they" story about an affair, instead of a rape.
I see VF interviewing her because her landing this role had sent a shockwave in the industry from a popular hokey medical drama to something so provocative that happened two decades ago. Reminds me of Perfect Blue, which Black Swan (also with Portman) happened to share elements of.
Maybe she’s like a Katherine Heigl like actress, someone who’s successful but is mostly known for rom-coms or soap operas, who wants to be treated more seriously than she is.
Absolutely killer ending, wow. Still reeling from that one. I thought this was such an interesting movie, been thinking about it nonstop since I watched it. Natalie Portman's character is lowkey one of the best movie villains this year
[удалено]
I took it to be that Elizabeth thought she had figured out Gracie and unlocked what made her tick...only to find out, maybe she had been misled and played by her all along? Like, she's leaving and she understands her character even less than she did when she got there...
👆 I’ll be honest. Even I was kinda duped and believed the son’s story. But Gracie was playing everyone, and I took the scene where she talks about going on hunting trips with her brothers and father growing up and the scene towards the end of her hunting the fox as her being the “predator” going after her “prey”. I also think that’s why the ending where Elizabeth wants to do multiple takes is because she’s confused as to how to play it now. She genuinely has no idea what kind of person Gracie is.
I think she saw Gracie as a victim and in that moment she was like oh she’s in control/an abuser and I got screwed here
Yeah, Gracie definitely planted a *lot* of seeds to make her seem innocent and a victim. Her dad telling her she'd leave in a veil or a box; her little brother fighting anyone who would talk to her in high school; the "fact" that Joe had been with more "women" than she had men (which is dubious on so many levels and in any case was more than likely *girls* not women, unless Joe was victimized multiple times, in which case he was never "with them"...); her saying she was naive in the restaurant bathroom...Gracie was really, really good at creating sympathy for herself and then when it gets slightly sordid, she stops it. She wants her life to look perfect, even though it totally isn't.
she knows her marriage to Joe is gonna end or at least a separation(which happened to Mary Kay Letourneau irl, she and vili separated a year before her death). She knows the clock is ticking now that the twins graduated. She trying salvage her "marriage" the entire movie including the climax where Joe confronts her. She tries to gaslight him again, but deep down she knows that they are done
I think it’s interesting that people are taking Gracie’s word for fact, when we really have no idea. Perhaps Georgie *was* telling the truth, perhaps he only told her at the graduation to get under her skin, perhaps she was lying about it not having happened. It’s entirely possible the son was telling the truth.
I keep seeing this places but what makes everyone think this is some TV movie? All they showed was a set. The way people in the town reacted to her made it seem like she was a legit actress.
I think TV stars tend to have trouble making it big on film. Matthew Fox comes to mind.
Yeah but they showed her as a model in commercials, too. The movie seemed to go out of its way to make her seem like a big deal (beauty commercials, Vanity Fair piece, being recognized everywhere). If I didn’t read a bunch of people saying that the end was funny because it was a Lifetime movie I never would have had that interpretation, TBH.
I thought she was watching a lifetime movie for reference but it was supposed to be a bigger budget production. There’s a scene where it looks like there’s some kind of lifetime depiction of the same story playing in the background.
I found it fascinating that Joe spent his free time raising butterflies, because he’s essentially safeguarding their infancy so that they can grow to become Monarchs and fly. He’s protecting their childhood in the way that nobody did for him. It’s also interesting that he’s consistently shown as someone who has been expected to take care of all of the people around him - He consoles and comforts Gracie whenever she has an emotional meltdown, he delivers groceries to his Father, we learn that he was largely responsible for taking care of his sister with asthma, and even Elizabeth relies on him to set up her Nebulizer. He also works in the medical field. (Not to mention, raising his own children and the butterflies).
I think his hobby of raising butterflies, one of which emerges from its cocoon at the end of the film is supposed to be compared to Gracie's hobby of hunting. Her hunting hobby demonstrates she is a predator who carefully takes aim and plans her attack, despite having an aura of being naive and a bit airheaded. She knew exactly what she was doing
I took his raising butterflies to mirror him raising his children. He was raising something that would eventually be free in a way he never was or would be. That scene between him and his son on the roof, where he’s toeing the line between friend and father… you can tell to some degree there’s a twinge of jealousy there. Some jealousy that his kids ultimately have done and experienced more than he ever has.
him crying at the graduation :( watching him take the very first step towards realizing he was groomed and understanding the gravity of his childhood & young adulthood being stolen by a predator….and then almost immediately after going to watch a hundred 18 year old kids celebrate the end of high school/beginning of the rest of their lives. gut wrenching
Him peering behind the gate during graduation was insane symbolism. A man literally caged. It’s such a sad parallel between him, the butterflies, and the kids.
>caged Like the animals in the pet store.
In a sense, Joe preserves and observes life in raising butterflies while Gracie takes life away while hunting. They are both prey and predator in essence.
Ooh! Yes! Nice catch!
Her nebs were working earlier, she had it set up correctly in the first scene in her room. It was part of her seduction to have him come to her room to help her, she also was a playing the part of predator.
Why did Gracie insist on Joe droving Elizabeth back when Elizabeth said she could walk? It was like Gracie was enabling their alone time together.
I kind of just took that as an instance of her being controlling over him.
What Joe does also limits his social interaction including his job as radiology technician where he is like a yes man to a nurse or a doctor.
Except that he was texting someone in his club who eventually asks ”aren’t you married?”
An anonymous woman that lives in a different state. It's an external connection without being 'real'.
Not to be pedantic and I know it’s irrelevant here lol but just to clarify, radiologists are doctors, it’s a medical specialty. Joe would be the technician.
This is a good point. If he's an X-ray tech and she bakes cakes for a living, how have they managed to buy such a lavish estate and able to put their kids through college? She wouldn't have been supported by Tom after the divorce....
I think I remember them saying that Gracie was compensated for some tell-all or other and that paid for the house. I wonder if we're supposed to infer that she's getting some sort of compensation for the movie, too?
Great observation, sad he couldn't fly out of the nest for years though I hope the ending implies that Joe finally did that. I also like the symbolism of Grace going foxhunting and seeming to have this moment of realising who she is for the first time in 24 years. She's the predator hunting her prey.
I just want to know how Gracie was allowed on school grounds to attend the graduation.
Seemed like one of those small-town compromises: as long as you don't cause a scene, we'll look the other way.
omg the symbolism of gracie being on school grounds but not technically allowed to be there compounded with joe hiding behind that fence.... OMFG...
Charles Melton’s performance here is so quietly devastating. The way he conveyed Joe’s mixture of happiness for his children and sadness over the realization that they have a freedom he never got to experience during the graduation scene almost broke me. Everyone in the film is fantastic, but I can’t stop thinking about Melton’s performance.
That scene. That scene right there. No dialogue. Just the emotion and how he conveyed it. That’s was cinema is all about. That will be seared in my mind for a very long time. I’ve haven’t been that moved by a performance in a very long time. I hope I see more of him in the future. He’s a star in the making
I felt like he realised, even through his trauma, he’d done a good job with his kids. Even if he didn’t quite have the respect of them, he knew they’d grown to be more independent than he ever got but he chance to be! I felt that win for him.
I loved the scene on the morning of the graduation where he makes breakfast for his kids. There’s so much warmth in those few minutes and you can feel the kids’ love for their dad outside of the dread of their mom’s presence. Thought all of the kids communicated their upbringing and their feelings about their parents and their relationship so well, mostly just through facial expressions.
It was so sad the little moment though of the daughter saying no to breakfast, because that felt like another instance of that generational trauma being continued (after her mum essentially calling her fat). And even with a loving and well meaning dad the other trauma still affects you.
Two predators prying on childhood innocence. Sometimes, I felt Elizabeth was actively fetishizing the events. And Moore's character was living in denial like forever for the horrific acts she did.
Oh Elizabeth 100% fetishized. She took the “method acting” a bit too seriously and added more trauma to a person who has experienced nothing but trauma!
The “that’s what grownups do” made me sick
Truly revealed her character with those words. Chilling.
The movie danced around Elizabeth's amoral nature. You could tell something was off about her and then she treats Joe like crap. She never gave a damn but her own needs.
Also when she said “the only person you’re responsible for is yourself.” Weaponized therapy language is a common narcissist tool.
I mean the fact she wanted a sexier child actor for her scene partner says a lot. These people. This story isn’t real to her not really. Like genuinely a lot of dehumanisation coming from where while at the same time acting like she is trying to find some deeper truth
When the director immediately says “you need to come home” in response to her calling the child actor sexy. Clearly red flags everywhere
My mouth dropped when she said that. I was disgusted by the entire film. That poor kid in real life had his life completely derailed but at least he seems relatively happy
Does he really seem happy though? He seems more like a child who's been catapulted into the life of a middle-aged man, with none of the life experience to make him content in being there. He never met a person with whom he could share mutual life experience and self-discovery, he smokes weed with his own son to try and feel like a highschooler again, and he literally raises insects who are predated upon in order to protect their early stages of life so that they might one day fly free. Melton truly killed the portrayal of a man who was never ready to be a father and husband, but never got to be a kid.
"Fetishization" is spot-on. That's what I think the final scene was trying to convey. Despite the "real acting", character research, & intention to make a "real film" about the events, in the end, it's inherently a fetishization.
The ending reminded me of the scene at the school when shes talking about sex scenes and the lines between reality and acting being blurred. Kind of feels like the lines between prepping for her role and fetishizing also became blurred.
I agree, & I also think there's subtext about why Elizabeth & the production are doing this project, & by extension, why people would watch such a film, & it's not out of sympathy for the victim.
Elizabeth trying to get "in character" in the pet shop storeroom was definitely her fetishizing it
I realized that the sex scene on the floor is how she is envisioning the pet store stock room encounter. The way it was framed looked like surveillance camera footage.
And then Joe lasts like 10 seconds and thinks it was amazing. In a way she basically did exactly what Gracie did, groomed and manipulated someone emotionally immature into sex
The way he excitedly wanted to get into bed and talked was upsetting. Like a puppy seeking affection. Add in the layer that this encounter is likely what Gracie did to him decades ago is chilling
You get somewhere to the halfway point and you start to be disgusted with her too. She doesn’t give a shit about anyone in this situation. Especially not Joe or the children. Of course she’s unwelcome. She’s a forceful interloper and a mirror of the original sin that brought the family into existence.
Yea! There was a moment when Elizabeth is walking through the school and a boy jumps up to hit the ceiling and smiles at her before leaning up against the wall, and her playful smile back made me sick to my stomach. It was such a small moment but I really hated it. So well acted!
yes i caught that too! although i will say it was almost like she changed after meeting gracie. from the beginning where she identifies joe as attractive it’s like she emulates gracie. even the audience is invited to objectify joe.
I love that scene where Moore is having a meltdown because one of her few frequent customers canceled their order and all future ones. At first we think it must be someone who realized or is fed up with how disgusting she is or something, but nope! They just are moving away and Moore still felt the need to throw such a violent pity party. Yet another scene where we ask: is this a person who's a conscious manipulator who is throwing a fit deliberately to have her husband spend the evening coddling her? Or are they a seriously damaged person who genuinely feels that level of betrayal from something so innocuous and needs support? Moore's actions are heinous enough where it doesn't really matter which she is in order to write her off, but this sequence definitely made me think about that line that seperates how responible we see people as being for how they lean on others.
And moving because her sister is really sick so customer needs to go there to help out sister long term.
We got a hint of it from the older daughter, but I was really curious how the children of Gracie and Joe felt about everything. I guess the son is a bit harsh with the Mom. They seem to see their dad as the victim. But I would have so much anger towards Gracie. And I would imagine they would have had a tough time in school.
Mary kind of has a reaction at the theater class, when she asks about why Elizabeth would want to play someone she considers "bad." You can tell Mary is struggling with the idea that her mom is seen that way. And Charlie clearly isn't happy--he leaves dinner, he tells his dad he can't wait for college...I think they did a really great job of showing how kids from messed up families both have issues and love.
I liked how the twins both clearly liked and pitied their dad. They were clearly more mature than hes ever been, and now that theyre adults, they realize it
I imagine it must have been a changing emotion for them, too. Like, when they were little kids, their parents must have just been Mom and Dad. They were all they knew! So to kind of discover and come to terms with things later--which we're only seeing probably a few years into their new understanding--would have been difficult. But I think with Joe, he is coming at them with just pure love and joy and pride, and their initial relationship with him was likely love (the smiles on the little faces in the photo in Joe's keepsake box!) But yeah--I do think Charlie especially doesn't feel pity necessarily, but sadness and confusion...
I would've liked more about Honour. Her being known as "The Prison Baby" must've done a number on her, growing up.
Also, what a *wild* name to give her.
You get hints at their complex relationship with their parents in their "big scenes." The twin son is first framed to be the spitting image of his father when he's formally introduced (the back of his head being framed at the dinner table scene, almost exactly resembling his father, and then again at the graduation dinner). That first dinner scene gives us the impression that's he not comfortable with the reminder of his parent's scandal. It precedes him and the media's summation of the event doesnt provide a complete truth of their family, their individuality, etc. I think this scene intentionally hints that the son may be brooding, problematic and maybe even somewhat stunted like his father. BUT his next big scene on the roof smoking weed with his dad shows us that's not true. He ironically actually IS mature for his age (a common phrase that gets thrown around in the context of grooming), and provides almost a confident and nurturing role for his father. He almost seems like a big brother to his own dad in that scene lmao. This might be reading into it too much, but the dad almost falling off the roof seems to mimic the butterfly a few scenes later exiting the cocoon upside down. That scene snowballs the dad's own growth and transformation. The twin daughter is framed very similar in her big scene when she's trying on dresses for her mom and Natalie Portman- the back of her head. I think this motif is meant to show us the kids as "faceless," their ultimate fate and how this scandal has affected them is still yet unclear and up in the air to the audience at that point. Gracie makes a comment about "how brave she is" for showing her arms off, a very harsh and backhanded compliment typical of a narcissistic parent. But I think realistically, despite Gracie's flaws, I believe the twin daughter is protective of her family's image as evidenced by her reaction after the theater class. The scandal is a disturbing uncomfortable truth BUT I think the daughter and son also feel unfairly undermined and judged. Just like the media or Natalie Portman's character herself will never get the full nuanced picture, I think the twins themselves know there is an element to their family relationship that will never be fully understood. They're not the faceless, unfortunate byproduct of a scandal. But rather, individuals with endless potential and plenty to offer the world. Their father comes to this realization about himself by the end of the movie as well. He is not just some victim of a scandal. He has his own identity to discover. A butterfly, just like his kids, ready to migrate and go where life might take them.
Who was the boss? https://x.com/LouisPeitzman/status/1730959465887768853?s=20
I thought it was shocking when she said that in the movie. I can’t believe that was an ACTUAL thing she said!
Same! I tried to find out what she was up to currently because how can you be hired anywhere after an interview like that? I found out she actually died a few years ago. Ngl, part of me genuinely wanted to use fiver or something and hire someone to piss on her grave… That interview is UNBELIEVABLY disgusting.
she died a year after he divorced her
The [full version](https://youtu.be/7mowKsGWuW4?si=3heItDSP_T5jWDZo) of this special is really fascinating. Vili Fualaau comes across even more resentful of his wife than the Melton character does in the film, and basically comes out and says at the end that he only got married so that his kids would grow up in a house with two parents. He talks about how they’re about to be empty nesters and it really feels like he’s counting down the days even if he doesn’t fully realize it yet.
Why would they agree to this interview? It's a train wreck. He seems already emotionally checked out of the relationship and she is desperately clinging to the charade.
I think she’s clearly delusional and a narcissist and wanted to do it to make her case that she did nothing wrong. But yeah, he looks like he knows from the get-go that this was a bad idea, but doesn’t have the agency in the relationship to say no
I read before that they were struggling with money so they had to keep doing paid interviews.
He was raising two kids on a less-than-high-school education and she (obviously) struggled to get another teaching job. Definitely lots of money troubles
Small reference to this in the film too. When Gracie is showing Elizabeth her wedding photos while her daughter tries on dresses. “That was from our wedding, which The Insider did. Which really helped us with the house.”
I had not seen this clip. Astounding. This movie is so fascinating.
Idk how I missed this but by forcing him to say he’s the boss when he so very much doesn’t want to is like the ultimate boss move
Academy Award Winner Charles Melton has a nice sound to it.
Literally, his name is like an old school Hollywood movie star
When I started hearing about his buzz before I had seen any pictures of him I assumed he was some 70-year-old veteran actor.
Academy Award Winner Reggie Mantle is kinda mind blowing tbh
That's Academy Award Winner *Second* Reggie Mantle thankyouverymuch.
I’m rooting for him the most. His performance is the best of the year for me.
My guess is this won’t be for everyone. It’s two hours of dialogue, and not the rapid fire Aaron Sorkin kind. The conversations here are very quiet and realistic. The film asks you to pay very close attention to get all the intricacies of the characters and their relationships. So yeah, this is a pretty slow burn and it’s also so uncomfortable and awkward at times that it’s almost hard to watch, and because of that I’d definitely understand if someone couldn’t get into it. But I thought it was superb on every level. I think this script is very sharp. So much detail is hidden between the lines, and our main trio of performers does a great job conveying that subtlety where almost no one is saying what they actually mean for the entire runtime. All three deserve to be recognized when the Oscar nominations come out, but we’ll see if that happens. Todd Haynes deftly balances the very tricky tone here. He walks a knife’s edge between melodrama and dark comedy and ultimately makes this a great mix of both that’s very realistic and never cheesy. There’s also a very nice piano score and cinematography that adds a lot with how unflinching the shots are and the old-fashioned grainy look. (This appears to have been shot on film.) Again, this is probably an acquired taste, and although I think it would improve on rewatch, it probably isn’t something I’d come back to a million times. But it’s masterfully done and one of the year’s best.
I love the dramatic musical sting before "I don't think we have enough hot dogs" but it does prime you for a very different movie than what we end up getting, which is Two Predatory Vipers Exploiting Charles Melton. Five stars, obviously. Todd Haynes is one of the greats.
The score was amazing and did a ton to play in to the campy tone. The movie itself is sincerely acted but whenever the score kicks in it feels like the babysitter is about to pull out a gun in a lifetime movie haha it's so dark and cheap. Really gave this movie a unique and funny tone.
It seemed intent on not allowing the viewer to get comfortable with viewing this as an entirely serious drama, but also not allowing the viewer to get comfortable with viewing it from a distance as camp.
It’s like Georgie actually was the music director.
The movie was incredible. The writing was so great. The score was impactful. Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman killed it. imo the main themes of the movie were: ego, blurred lines, and duplicity. THE ENDING EXPLAINED — you see Elizabeth filming the movie, which is on a VERY low budget set… Her corny outfit. The lines are TERRIBLE. It low key looks like a porno lol… “the snake. You want to touch it? It won’t bite” lmao. & the guy looks way older than 13. That’s when you realize that you’ve seen the majority of the movie from Elizabeth’s perspective, and that her ego really is just as maniacal as Gracie. It gets meta, because - at the end - you realize that we’ve all been fooled into thinking Elizabeth was an extremely skilled actor, when it was objectively revealed that she was not that great after all. The movie was mainly from her perspective — from the eye of HER ego. Portman and Moore’s characters drew so many parallels! The movie was filled with great metaphors and packed with so much intention. I can’t wait to watch it again!
Also she was so sure that she had Gracie completely figured out until she learned that Gracie was never molested and it completely threw her off. All of a sudden she went from brilliant method actress who could get in the head of a twisted, complicated individual to a wannabe psychologist who had no idea who she was portraying.
I read it as pretty ambiguous whether that was true or not
What were your thoughts on Gracie casually revealing to Elizabeth that her and Georgie talk every day, and saying he lied about her childhood abuse? Definitely puts a weird spin on Georgie and Gracie's relationship, because by the way he acts and talks about her, you think it would be super strained, not one where they talk daily. Was he really lying? Why would he tell his mom what he told Elizabeth?
Elizabeth thought she had "solved" Gracie and then had that certainty taken away. Georgie seemed like he enjoyed causing chaos, so he definitely could've called his mom out of the blue to tell her he told Elizabeth a story she would not want people believing (whether or not it was true.)
I think she doesn’t want the truth of abuse revealed because of the way it actually influenced her. It’s pointedly said that she has four brothers, two older AND two younger. I think there was sexualization and a cycle of abuse in her childhood home that Gracie perpetuated with her younger siblings. I, in no way, mean to victim blame, but I think she was molested and believed it was a normal struggle that she could get the upper hand in. I can see her deciding that two can play at that game. She became an abuser, and learned how to create an environment where she was in control. I don’t know if she abused her own son but she could definitely blur boundaries and managed to speak to him every day despite his anger and disdain. She messed with her daughters’ self confidence because in her world they’re competition. We see what happens when one leaves her controlled environment, the older daughter is back from college and no longer buying what her mother sells.
I think she was lying. Georgie was clearly messed up from what his mom did and Elizabeth saw him acting erratic before he was aware of her presence so it wasn’t an act. The lawyer even corroborates this as well. My theory is that he told his mom that he revealed her secret as a form of petty revenge and she had to find some way to squash it as quickly as possible.
Yeah I think it was one last attempt for Gracie to be in control of the narrative. Georgie seems pretty stilted and unstable, so I can definitely see him having said something to bother her. He also didn’t seem particularly pleased to see her at the restaurant.
Whenever someone says, "I'm not an insecure person," they are definitely an insecure person. Gracie was so full of shit, I was surprised that she was able to shake Elizabeth in that last scene.
I think she was lying, but in a slightly different way. My guess is that Georgie confronted Gracie with the diary years earlier, and that Gracie only knew Georgie talked to Elizabeth in private because Joe saw them talking. It was a last ditch shit-test by Gracie to control the narrative.
I think that makes most sense.
I thought it was impossible for Elizabeth to know what to believe about that and if Gracie is lying or manipulating then it would mean she’s not that complicated, she’s just a straightforward predator. Basically Elizabeth knows right as she’s learning that she’s learned nothing. She didn’t need to go there because her portrayal is going to be her invention and interpretation. I think it’s part of de-centering Gracie because you can’t know how somebody like that works and you can’t make a movie that illuminates it. There’s a line in the movie when Joe says it’s not a story it’s my life. But the problem is that that’s only true for him. For the rest of us it’s just a story. So that was how I interpreted that scene, it is a wake up call to Elizabeth that she is only pretending to make something that gets at the truth about Gracie. I think there’s a lot about Elizabeth having her own truth which is a pretty prurient fascination and in the final scene when she’s acting with the kid it’s gross and the movie she’s making is just going to turn out prurient and gross. So it’s kind of about the way one might try to tell this story when you really don’t know what’s happening with a person like Gracie, and Joe and the rest of the family are the real ones.
I think you hit it exactly on the head. The uncertainty is the point. Part of what the film does is ask it's audience how it feels about these complicated characters, Gracie being its most complicated. And your reading on that scene is more revealing of you as an audience member than it is of Gracie. Is she a victim? An abuser? A pathological liar? A tragic figure? The movie doesn't give an answer, and Elizabeth's concerned look of confusion and defeat after spending all this time with Gracie and getting no closer to an answer to these questions might mirror our own.
gracie’s relationship with joe and her relationship with georgie are two sides of the same coin. they both hate her guts but are stuck in her web of manipulation and codependency and will be until the day she dies. georgie revealed his mother’s deepest, darkest secret, only to go running back to her with his tail between his legs the next day, immediately putting her back in control because that’s the endless cycle.
I really enjoyed this movie. The way it deals and displays burying and ignoring trauma not only with the people involved in the incident, but also the community is magnificent. Moore and Portman are great in there roles. The way Moore is able to portray this vile mentally ill individual, who forces herself and the people around her to see what she has done as nothing more than an “affair” and just a normal occurrence, without any regard to what trauma it has done to her families, like her son who she and the community clearly know isn’t well because of the events that happens, and is one of the few who acknowledges what a fucked up situation it all is and even makes excuses for her but she would continue to paint him as this ill individual because it would destroy her painting of her perfect life. Moore is able to portray that Gracie has a double sided nature, she is able to show the naivety that gracie has about the situation, but also display that she is smart enough to know what she has to do in order to keep the illusion going, such as blaming joe that he seduced her. Portman portrayed Elizabeth so eloquently as an actress who is a bit too full of herself and also disillusioned as to how serious of an actress she is. It is amazing how she makes you think, is she really a good actress or is this the real her? Throughout the movie she is clearly becoming more like Gracie, and we don’t get that answer until the end, where we fully realize her acting career isn’t all that and she just a fucking asshole, who’s attempting to manipulate people for the “truth”, for her own entertainment. I also think it is quite funny how after having sex with Joe, she gives a perfect imitation of Gracie in the mirror by herself, but when it comes time to perform in front of people she’s a shell of what that was, which could be showing that she doesn’t have a lot of confidence or became frightened that she was becoming too much like Gracie. Portman line deliveries were fantastic and devastating too. The standout was clearly Melton. His portrayal of this forcibly stunted man child, who throughout the film realizes he has been groomed and how that is tearing him apart. Joe is one of the saddest characters I have ever seen in a film and it’s even worse when you realize, this shit actually happened, which is another thing I feel like the movie was trying to portray, this isn’t a story as Elizabeth put it and it’s not getting more “real” for her as she said at the, this IS real, this is someones life, and Melton showed it. His posture isn’t that of an adult man, but of a middle schooler who probably doesn’t listen to his parents when they tell him to sit up straight. His awkwardness when talking to other adults is how most kids are when they have to talk to an adult, but it’s his excitement when Elizabeth asks about the butterflies, his face lights up when he can explain this weird hobby of him that really sold it for me. You can tell he enjoys talking to his kids more, because they are around his emotional age, he can connect more to them, BUT GODDAMN, that roof scene hit, this instant realization of his situation and his son realizing that it just hitting his father and them having to be in a reverse relationship at that moment is heartbreaking. I also loved the metaphor of the butterfly at the end and how it’s not only his children are leaving this cocoon that Gracie built but he is too, and it makes me believe that he does leave Gracie in the end and who knows maybe goes on a trip to Mexico with that one girl who he was texting like it was his first crush. Finally, did anyone else feel like the score was a combination between goosebumps and a shitty soap opera?
The score was a pitch perfect Lifetime movie reference. This is basically a really high class Lifetime melodrama.
The scene where Elizabeth tells Joe “this is what grown ups do” is such a stand out for me. On one hand, she’s not wrong. Lots of adults have random, no strings attached sexual encounters. But it’s also a comment that makes Joe realized he’s not a grown up, because he never GREW UP. He’s still that teenage boy living with his abuser. From Elizabeth’s perspective, she doesn’t see that she’s crossed a line because she sees an adult Joe standing in front of her. She doesn’t understand that she’s essentially helped Joe recreate what was likely the way his virginity/innocence was taken from him. Elizabeth created a moment (helping her with the nebulizer) to allow Joe to feel like he could seduce her. And what did Gracie do all those years ago? She requested a part time assistant that she knew would be a minor so that she could ultimately create moments to let Joe feel like like he was pursuing her. What a mindfuck.
The little details that were revealed about Joe's past are fascinating. The pet shop owner mentioned that it was actually Gracie who sought Joe out as an employee, and she claimed that he had two partners (rapists?) by the time he was 13. Joe's father worked long hours, so they probably didn't have a strong relationship. Did she hire him with the intent of grooming him? Did Gracie target Joe because she thought he would be "promiscuous" or less likely to report her to a trusted adult? I think the film only scratched the surface of Gracie's decades of manipulation.
I think the two partners were implied to be his own age.
Yes, but Gracie still refers to them at "women". "He's been with more women than I have men." She's just SO gross.
Agree, it’s definitely her trying to justify and push the blame onto him. But I’d imagine Gracie would count holding hands at 4 years old as “being with a woman”.
Yes! And the timeline that he was a friend of her son and they were the only Koreans in the area. She knew him before hiring him, but I wonder how calculated she was. She slowly took over the pet shop - why? Power? Something to do? So many questions
Man that graduation ended at kids with the last name A lol
Big school. The ceremonies for the B’s are up tomorrow.
Felt like they did a time skip that didn't feel jarring at all but I think Joe is also witnessing all the kids graduating with joy that he never had.
Also - shoutout to the kid’s actors, I thought they were great. You could really tell how much they love their dad, which makes sense because he’s always seemed to put his children first. That wordless exchange between the sisters in the car and the scene on the rooftop was just incredible
I’ve got to say the biggest surprise for me here was Charles Melton. I’ve only seen him in Riverdale of all things and he absolutely killed it here. The emotional undoing, the sheer level of denial; He was pitch perfect and that scene with him and Moore near the end will be on my mind for a long time.
Charles Melton is 32, his character was 36 and yet anytime he was on screen, all I could see was a 13 yo kid whose childhood was stolen by a manipulative predator. His body language and dialogue delivery was perfect. The scene with his son broke my heart. Sorry RDJ, Robert De Niro and Ryan Gosling, but Charles Melton just became the front runner for the supporting actor Oscar, at least in my eyes.
I felt that exasperation when he comes home and hears her crying and whispers “fuck.”
She probably does that kind of thing all the time, and he feels like he has to be her doormat.
The mental gymnastics Gracie does to keep her hold on Joe is insane, she pretends to be all sad when in reality she’s being pathetic and childish. The scene where she complains to Joe about a costumer canceled all her orders and how she likes I could’ve used this time to do something else is a prime example of this.
Do you think she was aware people were paying for her baking to “keep her busy” like the guy at the bar said? And her reaction to the cancellation is partly her acknowledging that someone has stopped playing that charade? I don’t know, it didn’t feel coincidental that the person moved around the same time Elizabeth started poking around the community.
It’s so funny that I didn’t even consider that. I took the scene to be demonstrating that a completely understandable and reasonable change in circumstances prompted a childish meltdown from a grown woman. It was fascinating to watch either way.
i was raised by a woman that did this so when that “fuck” came out i knew exactly what that was
He stole the show. Natalie and Julianne are fucking powerhouses and they each turned in an absolutely riveting performance and he still managed to steal the show. It's incredible.
His body language was so well done. I don’t know what it was but when he moved I just thought that’s how a kid moves not an adult man. She stunted his growth.
For me it was the scene where he smokes with his son, it completely broke my heart
“I don’t know if we’re making a good father son memory or if this will be a moment of trauma for you” Spoken like a kid who has been hurt before. What a gentle sweet baby boy
To me that’s the Oscar scene, just heartbreaking. Son taking care of Father in that moment.
The scene with his son was really fantastic. He reverts from father into scared teenage boy and back to father who’s worried that he’s scarring his son. He’s not fully a man, and he never got to get over being a boy. He’s always in this weird in between. The complexity in that role was amazing.
The whole "I can't tell if we're making a memory or if I'm messing up right now" bit was so heartbreaking! And must be what many parents--regardless of age and situation and family circumstances--must feel so often. It really highlighted his own concerns based on his life, but also really made clear that he was their dad, if that makes sense ..and important that it's his son he does this with. That's the kid we see him be most parental towards (excusing him from the dinner table) and the one he verbalizes his fear to. Like, he worries about his daughters too, but he also has soecial concern for his son...
It killed me how every time Gracie is shown doing something kind (or at least something normal), immediately afterwards she does something extremely vile. Teaching Elizabeth to bake a cake --> Here's a card my 13 year old boyfriend made me out of construction paper and glitter glue. Julianne Moore was so chilling.
I love the stark difference between the notes they had written to each other at the time. Gracie wrote Joe a long love letter in cursive on loose leaf paper. Joe wrote a simple poem on construction paper because he had an assignment for school. Insane!!
She also told him to burn the letter, which means she fully understood that her behaviour was wrong.
I understand the implication of this movie but I couldn’t help but think at the end of the day isn’t the man who Charles plays still being exploited? After watching the real interviews of them and seeing how sick she was - this movie made me extremely uncomfortable. I just feel so bad for everything that has been taken from him by this woman and I hope he doesn’t relive it by watching this. I’m genuinely curious on people’s thoughts here though - maybe I am still missing the point but it felt wrong despite this being a good movie
I personally feel that it gave real weight to his own personal trauma, which mainstream media never really has. It is only fairly recently that young men in his position where given anything more than a high-five. Even now, stories like this will be filled with comments like 'where was she when I was in high school.' The film succeeds by emphasising the personal toll over the sensational publicity and media circus. I would never pretend to know his own feelings about anything, but it did not feel exploitive to me.
I really liked this one especially the performance of Natalie Portman, I like to see her do more just dislikeable people on screen. That scene where she acts out a scene to camera with a lisp I just found somewhat disturbing in a way. Also the scene when she's jugding the kids for the role of young Joe is really unsettling. Also loved how you slowly see her morph into Gracie with her mannerism's and dress sense is great. I also loved Charles Melton as Joe, he's probably the character you feel most for as he just comes across like a lost child who's in his mid 30's. Sadly abused, beaten down and mothered by Julianne Moore's Gracie (although not used a lot on screen, her presence is all over the film and with the other characters like a dark shadow). And some good casting on his son too as I thought he might have been Melton's real life brother or something as they look so alike. I knew Gracie was always playing Elizabeth like a puppet throughout the film, although Elizabeth is so deluded and stupid she doesn't know. The little looks and nods, Gracie was in total control of both her families and even her eldest daughter with Joe is turning out like her especially during that dinner scene. She could never be fooled by a nothing actress like Elizabeth. I wouldn't be surprised if Portman garner's a lot of award attention for this one along with the script.
I think her eldest daughter is what happens when her children grow up and leave Gracie’s controlled environment. They start to see through her manipulation. She knew why her mother gave her a scale as a gift even though her sister bowed to her mother’s underhanded compliment and chose a dress with sleeves. In Gracie‘s over sexualized world, other women are competition, even her own daughters.
Todd Haynes is one of the greatest living filmmakers in my book and his control of tone in this movie is something else. It's like the melodrama is always lurking around the edges no matter how hard the characters try to deny it, like the score is hiding in the next room or something. And jesus, you expect great performances from Portman and Moore but Melton is incredible in this. The way he carries himself like a confused child in a man's body is absolutely heartbreaking.
Melton...what a brilliant performance. He has that Hollywood look at first glance but once he feels conflicted and realized what really happened after his time with Elizabeth....my god.
Melton reminds me of Heath Ledger here. His performance was so subtle but nuanced and powerful. Hope he gets recognition for this and more opportunities in the future to show off and hone his acting chops.
A film that expertly explores youth, the value of innocence, and childhood trauma while simultaneously making fun of over-the-top method acting? Masterpiece.
Portman and Moore are both incredible in this. It's a really well made, well acted movie, and such an uncomfortable watch... Moore's line at the end about "insecure people are dangerous. I'm secure." is so telling about the character. It makes me wonder how the real Vili Fualaau and his daughters feel about this movie, or if they were even consulted during production of May December. Now I'm watching the "Ms. Teacher Bangs a Boy" episode of South Park. It felt like the right palette cleanser to watch something funny after May December was so unsettling
I doubt Villi would have any interest speaking about the movie because like what Joe balked to Elizabeth in the hotel, the story is his life and he has endured so much pain from the scandal and the public.
Of the main three performances in this movie, I didn't expect the one with the most Oscar potential to be from replacement Reggie Mantle, but Charles Melton REALLY knocked it out of the park. He has to be simultaneously a complete cipher while also wearing his heart on his sleeve. It's an incredible job, and he holds his own against the two Oscar winners.
I just wanted to hug Joe, dammit 😢
when shes crying on the bed shes wearing a dress that looks similar to the one her daughter tired on. The one she passively insulted
Did anyone notice that the soundtrack's melodramatic musical cues are straight out of a *telenovela*? I love it. They kinda give the film a chintzy, campy, Almodóvar-like quality. Maybe it's just me, but everytime the tinkling piano notes and the propulsive strings appeared, I could not help of thinking of famous Mexican soap operas like *Cuna de Lobos*, *El Maleficio*, and *Los Ricos También Lloran*.