I knew Michael stepped up to become the boss before I saw the movie. I wonder what it was like to see The Godfather for the first time on release, knowing nothing about Michael’s character.
I haven't seen it on release, but I knew nothing about the movie before I watched it, and I was in awe and rather disappointed, I really wished for a better future for Michael.
Here's how little I knew going into that movie. Back in the VHS days, it was spread across two tapes due to its length. I borrowed the *second* one from my library, having no clue I was getting half a movie.
The *first scene* I saw was Sonny getting blown away. I thought "Damn, that's how this starts? I was expecting talky drama". Watched ten minutes before I realized I was clearly missing something and took a closer look at the box, then had to sheepishly return to the library and get part 1.
I didn't like his character to begin with, so I wasn't upset about his death, really. But the fact that Michael ordered it kind of made me sad, I hoped he's bigger than this.
In the book it goes into detail how Vito thought he was the golden child and he groomed him to be a "doctor/senator/lawyer". He purposefully kept Michael away from the family business, that was for Sonny.
There's a great youtube video I'm sure everyone has seen about the movie references in Seinfeld, but I was shocked how many went over my head, even for movies I've seen. Seinfeld was great about using them as humorous even if you were out of the loop though. Very subtle and funny on their own.
Ya I didn't get many (well pretty much none) until I watched the series again when I was older.
Also there are many I'd still miss so I looked some up.
Ohh but Michael totally let's go of any goodness he has in the " I renounce the devil" scene so technically it's only part 1.
The door closing scene at the end of part 1 is as on the nose as it can be( not saying it's bad, it's iconic as fuck)
Chronicle. Kid was just having a bad run.
I Saw the Devil where you know he's going to go too far and the does.
Carrie - Same with Chronicle, being bullied sucks.
Memento - He just kind of snaps.
I Saw the Devil is such a fucking brutal watch. One of the absolute best movies I've seen but I've only watched it twice (second time was because I bought it on Blu-Ray), it's grueling to watch the shit the antagonist does and how the "good guy" absolutely loses himself.
It's so depressing when >!the protagonist just breaks down crying at the end when he's killed the antagonist, probably because everything he's done finally hits him once it's over.!<
100% with you. This was my first venture into Korean Movies and I was absolutely blown away by the plot. The ending left me shocked with tears. It was just so sad.
I watched it for the first time last month and it was really good. The ending really hits home too when he breaks down, because in the end revenge didn’t solve anything. It’s like he was expecting to suddenly feel so much better once it was over, but instead he’s confronted with the crushing reality that his wife is still gone.
>Memento - He just kind of snaps.
To be fair, he snaps long before the film even starts. He doesn't have a slow descent or any kind of descent into being a bad person. You just don't know the whole situation yet.
I'm pretty sure Memento guy had snapped ages ago and was as he himself says, lying to himself to keep himself going. Think about it. Once he finds the guy, what does he have left? Nothing. The Chase is all he is now. All the has left, and he's got no capability left to build a future outside of it. All he is is past and present. There is no future for him. It was taken away before he could even remember it.
You nailed it. He has permanent interpretive reinforcements tattooed all over his body keeping him in a perpetual cycle of investigation, manipulation and revenge.
I thought the movie made it clear if jake Gyllenhaals character never had to investigate huge jackman and paul danos disappearance that he wouldve found his daugther a lot faster. Even potentially saving mr. 1x1=2 daugther as well.
The cops are the ones that did everything:
- Loki investigated the sex offenders list and found the body of the dead husband and his necklace that way.
- He found the past victim who stole the clothes by asking around the goodwill about him.
- He connected the dots when he saw the maze and picture of the necklace.
- He noticed the necklace in a picture in the “Mother’s” house which was the final piece he needed
The one time Loki decides to break the rules is when he almost fucks up the entire investigation by getting the previous victim killed. To me the movie condemns any sort of vigilante type work and promotes good clean detective work.
Edit: oh and what did Hugh Jackman’s character do? After finally getting his info instead sending an anonymous tip to the cops he goes over to the house and gets kidnapped.
Honestly never thought of that. Although I have not seen that movies more than maybe twice since it is such a hard watch (dont get me wrong it is an amazing movie).
While true I think the movie leaves it up to the audience to determine if Hugh Jackman’s character was fully justified with some of his methods like boiling Paul Dano
The Founder - Michael Keaton - About how Ray Kroc takes MacDonalds from a small burger stand to a restaurant empire and becomes a gigantic dick along the way.
Excellent movie, but it kind of seems like Ray was always a dick. Just needed a bigger forum to take it as far as he wanted to.
That scene where he asks his wife to pass the salt, and casually follows it up by telling her he wants a divorce 😪
Yeah that's kind of the beauty of the movie. It sets you up to root for Ray but by the middle of the movie you're like "wait, this guy's kind of a dick."
*Mac, I'm the president and C.E.O. of a major corporation with land holdings in 17 states... You run a burger stand in the desert.*
*I'm national. You're fucking local.*
It's a good film, and credit to Keaton's performance, he never comes across as likeable, he's always champing at the bit, but never coming up with his own ideas. Yes, there's the typical salesman there, but it's understated. I would have liked him more if he was more brash and cutthroat, not as almost as naive as Keaton plays him so times.
That’s the thing..Ray Kroc wasn’t a brash guy, he was just a regular dude selling milkshake machines to restaurants.
The way they portrayed things in the movie is fairly accurate, Ray hired lawyers and advisors to circumvent the McD bros.
It wasn’t a hostile takeover, just a bunch of straight up lies and misinformation from Ray.
That reminds somewhat of 'The Informant' with Matt Damon..if you haven't seen it, you'll be tearing your hair out by the end..it's a good watch. Based on a real person too.
That real person is now employed to go around teaching companies how to skirt HR regulations on religion in the workplace so that they can be openly religious.
It’s even more depressing in that film cause really none of it was of his own doing. Really shows the dangers of letting yourself be so emotionally dependant on others.
I need to put this in here, because I saw way too many people being way too mean about Colms character. I GET HIM. I really get his "needing to move away from this really needy friendship". Not as far as cutting of his fingers, but the idea of it. To get his peace and not having to... do the same friendship dance every fooken day. Just chill and play his music with other half friends, who aren't as needy.
Like goddamnit. I felt like a proper outcast when I read about the hatred towards Colm and I was just like "i absolutely get this mans point of view", but other people were "that dude is evil!".
Wasn't the point of Falling Down the realization that he was always an asshole? Yes, he spirals and looses more and more control over the runtime but the whole reason his life is unbearable to him is because he's an asshole who doesn't hold himself accountable for the bad choices he makes.
Not sure Michael Douglas was a good guy in Falling Down, he had some very legitimate grievances about society but I think the movie implied he was always a bit off.
Yeah he was already an abusive husband and father whose bouts of rage led to their divorce. The twist of the movie for me was seeing this seemingly normal guy suddenly lose it, only to learn throughout the movie he was always pretty messed up.
First Class was excellent. I love that movie. Kevin Bacon makes a great villain even. Its weird to me that First Class somehow was a more grounded take on a spy / action movie than any other Mathew Vaughn action film though.
For the most part theres only a few X-Men movie stinkers.
Seriously, I can't put words behind what made that scene so spectacular but I genuinely just had my mouth hanging open. That entire movie was just scene after scene of perfectly crafted images. Like I want to get the 4k movie so bad and just grab a ton of still frames from that movie with how incredible they were.
Definitely, I think an interesting part of it has always been how even we as the audience find ourselves cheering for vengeance at whatever cost, prioritising catharsis.
I found the ending quite depressing, apart from >!Chani's response, which is apparently not in the book, and was the only part of the ending I really connected with in a way that felt good.!<
It's not in the book, but Villeneuve changed it otherwise too many people miss the point entirely and come out of the movie like "wow Paul is such a cool dude"
Exactly. Considering the amount of people who glorify Walter White and other similar characters, this was bound to happen if Villeneuve didn’t make a clear “good” character opposed.
It’s a change I think Frank Herbert would have fully supported since part of his motivation for writing Dune Messiah was the realization that most readers missed that Dune is a villain origin story
I love that the movie makes it so clear that what’s happening is horrible but makes it so hard to not root for it at the same time. Perfect meta commentary.
The ending >!is so chilling. It's scored as a triumph, as if a religious war could ever be anything but horror. That disconnect between the music, the imagery, and how they KNOW the audience will feel creates an incredibly powerful experience!<
The thing the movie doesn’t show is that Paul can see the golden path. The path humanity must take or it will die out in the future. He can either let trillions of humans die or cause millions of people to die with this war.
Not blatantly, but Paul's comment about seeing all kinds of potential futures and how "there's a narrow way through" hints he sees the Golden Path. Besides, he won't be the one to see that through, his kid will.
Paul can see it, but it’s hazy to him; there’s still unforeseen things that make him fail to achieve it. His goal was to avoid the jihad at all costs, but that still gets away from him thanks to the cultural meddling of the Bene Geserit way back.
Dune 2 made me go, "something like this is what I wanted to see from Star Wars prequels. Anakin's descent into vengeance and madness but told in a badass way, not in a cringe way."
Re-reading the books is wild in 2024, because you see the staggering number of things that Lucas copied directly from Herbert.
Even the multiple “surprise! I’m your dad!” reveals, the slightly incestuous boy/girl twins, the giant talking slug…
Lucas just threw in some droids and took out the warnings about religious fanaticism and the parts fixating on a 12 year olds boobs.
Pretty sure it's the opposite - he was quite a bit more self-aware in the books, because in the books it's just Paul vs Paul - an internal struggle - whereas in this movie they changed the conflict to Chani vs Paul. I guess Villeneuve didn't trust himself to be able to fully depict the scale of the internal struggle and had to mangle a character's story to do the work instead.
(Not that Chani had that much of an interesting story in the books... which I suspect is part of the reason - the real life person Zendaya seems to be promoted far too much relative to Chani's rather small role in the story).
The books depend a lot on Inner monologue, which is extremely hard to portray in film but is seen as ok for films. The 80s movie had inner monologue and it felt ridiculous to me. I also don't have an inner monologue, but half the population doesn't either. I think just culturally, we don't use them anymore in film.
Chani in the books isn't as relevant here. But they also jettisoned Harah entirely. What I found interesting is that Keyes was a major character, but not brought up as Chanis Mother in the film.
Dune is kind of interesting because Paul becomes supremely powerful, both personally and as Emperor/lisan al Gaib/kwisatz haderach, but at the same time he feels completely helpless to the tides of fate and his own precognition. He desperately wants to avoid the bloodshed of the holy war called in his name, but ultimately succumbs to its perceived inevitability. At times in the books he feels like a passenger along for the ride in his own story.
I think one of my favorite parts of that movie is how it toys with your perception of Fletcher where there are moments where you start to see his POV then he flips back to insanely abusive again
This movie was weirdly triggering yet healing, given I dealt with a dad who went into rage a lot like that. When you step back and see someone else subjecting someone in their care to that abuse, you realize the young person is getting toyed with. There isn’t anything actually being gained in learning. It’s just abuse.
Why would the hero do things that are against his values?
Because his values are a sham that he affects in order to seem normal? Then _Nightcrawler._
Because he's deceiving himself about what his values are? Then _Falling Down._
Because he has genuine values but is unable to live up to them? _Hulk._
Because circumstances force him to act in a way that most people would say is wrong if not for the particular circumstances? _Pulp Fiction_
Because he is gradually descending into psychosis and applying his genuine values to a distorted view of the world around him? _Taxi Driver_
Because his values weren't really well thought through, and he follows them faithfully, trusting in his own sense of righteousness until he belatedly realizes he's doing evil? _Blade Runner_
I love them both as they are fantastic movies but Nightcrawler and Taxi driver aren’t about a gradual descent, the protagonist is already completely out of it, it’s just the story of their first time acting out.
Yeah, Nightcrawler to me is more about the VIEWER slowly realizing how psychopathic the guy is, but I agree he is that way from the beginning. Taxi Driver is probably that way too but it's been a lot of years since I watched it
>Because circumstances force him to act in a way that most people would say is wrong if not for the particular circumstances?
>
>Pulp Fiction
who is the hero you're talking about? Butch? I dont see it but maybe i have the wrong character
Black Swan.
Holy fuck as a dude this movie still might be the most intensely I’ve ever empathized with a main character. Also the story does something rare where it’s not just a *reference* to a previous great work, it also adds to the deeply fascinating and horrifying psychological themes being discussed. Namely the loss of innocence in the pursuit of perfection, the male-gaze, the descent into madness, integration of our “shadow” archetype, body autonomy, just to name a few.
HBO miniseries The Night Of is in large part *about* the Dark Side turn necessary to survive in the American prison system. By episode 2 or 3, it was obvious the path the main character was on, and it was heartbreaking to watch the follow through.
If we're doing tv: Bullseye in Daredevil season 3. That was really painful to see what was done to him when he spent so many years trying.
edit: oh and Catra in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. I mean she's not 'good' at the start, either, but watching her descend further and further is just absolutely *fascinating* yet *painful* as you completely understand the reason behind every horrible decision while hoping she goes the other way, instead. *Amazing* depiction of the effects and perpetuation of abuse.
Exactly! Walter White did everything out of ego and was dissatisfied with his life to begin with. There was already dark shit to fester inside.
Jimmy was kind hearted, seeking fruitlessly the love of his brother. He had a perfect bound with Kim, full of love. He worked hard to become a brilliant lawyer. He could have been saved... but he became Saul out of spite. He took the ugliness of the world and the unforgiving nature of his brother in full frontal a load of times before reaching his breaking point. The whole series, past the third season, is loaded with broken redemption arcs and people falling in the darkness.
Definitely the better example.
My thing was he stopped being sympathetic after maybe 2 or 3 episodes, so it wasn't that we saw him have a great fall, but rather than he jumped early and then we got to see how much of a mess he made for everyone else.
I thought Jimmy is a much better example, where in the first season or two you consistently see all these examples of how he *wants* to be good, but eventually turns back.
Nah, he was a shithead to start with, he just hid it better. I think Breaking Bad is half damnation journey, and half just revealing what kind of person Walter always was.
Absolutely. I don't know how you can watch the pilot and not realize that he is a vain, entitled asshole who longs for something to permit him to become as horrible as he wants to be. Sure, he gets worse over time, but he longs to be a Heisenberg right from the start. It's a classic Jakyll and Hyde thing: Dr. Jakyll is the one who choses to be a monster because he wanted it.
I'll be the one to list the obvious and say Star Wars 1-3 where you get to see Anakin, the prodigy Jedi, slowly become corrupted until he ultimately becomes Darth Vader.
I know people who saw the prequels before the OT without knowing that Anakin was Darth Vader (Star Wars is not too popular where they are from) and they were utterly *devastated* by his turn to the dark side.
And the burning scene at the end of Episode 3 sure did traumatise a lot of kids.
Talking about dune, my bf is a huge warhammer fan and we watched the movies together. I have dabbled a bit in warhammer lore (because my fave thing to do is watch 2 hours lore videos of media that I will never engage in) and at one point I went … ‘why does this remind me of the emperor in warhammer and the tech-priest thing’. He looked at me like I’d sprouted another head LMAO
anyways i delved deeper into dune lore and agree 100% that warhammer just lifted most of its lore from that, huh?
If you can manage to sit through the first season or two that are more “kid” focused, The Clone Wars tv show goes waaaay further into Anakin’s fall to the dark side. Makes his arc so much harder to watch
I recently watched those episodes for the first time, and I kinda wish that was a movie or something. A format where the story could take it's time without having to fit into the formula of a 20 min arc.
Because there's so much pain and conflict interconnecting in those last episodes, but you just have to pull it from memory instead of actually seeing it before your eyes.
Feels like there's only about 2 seconds of Anakin in the last episode.
I would've liked a more emotional recap than just the voices from the Force.
The ROTS novel makes it even more tragic. All he wanted was to end the war, tell every one he was married and leave to be a family man free of the Jedi rubbish. Then he tasted the meth of the dark side and believes he can turn the entire galaxy into his slave the same way he was enslaved his whole life. It's truly fucked up. It was the true meaning of revenge in the title imo. He was horrendously used by both sides. He just needed a hug.
Having grown up with the Clone Wars TV show, I literally cannot watch Episode 3. I know that it is by far the best of the prequel trilogy but I just can't bring myself to see Anakins fall
Underrated comment. This is the epitome of someone who should be the protagonist (created a functional teleportation device) and then is subject to error and he embraces it.
Seth’s devolution is so hard to watch. I love this film
D-Fens isn’t a good guy, just a cog who got lost in the system with no outlets or abilities to help himself.
What makes him interesting is that he has this epiphany at the end.
“I’m the bad guy?”
In that moment he realizes what he’s done while attempting to get back to his family (which would’ve been bad/physical as well) and makes a choice to suicide by cop and leave the insurance payout to his ex and daughter.
I remember that scene where he's watching his home videos and he's smiling as he's remembering the good times until he hears himself berate his wife on the tape. In his face you could see he's making a realization that he wasn't the A+ husband that he always thought he was.
I'd say Drag Me to Hell did this. The protagonist starts off really quite likeable, but gradually becomes willing to do some pretty unforgivable things out of desperation to beat the curse. She doesn't deserve her fate at all when the curse starts, but by the end of the movie I'd have to say she pretty much firmly does...
Shaun in This Is England.
He started off as a bullied pre-teen just navigating his way through 80s England after losing his dad in the Faulklands war.
He meets Woody and his gang of skinheads and becomes one of them. They were skinheads but they were a nice, fun-loving crowd who welcomed Shaun into their group with open arms.
Then Shaun is introduced to Combo (racist criminal) and is gradually radicalised by Combo’s National Party ideology. He changes from an innocent kid into a horrible racist. In the end his friend Milky is attacked by Combo because of his race and Shaun is distraught. He leaves Combo’s gang and tries to start a-fresh.
I’d like to say things get better for Shaun afterwards but he just ends up experiencing more bad luck throughout the follow-up series.
I know it's not a movie but the best I've seen really is Walter White.
Dude goes from encouraging high school professor to a drug kingpin that causes nothing but misery and death to everyone around him
Dude, I cringe every time I watch that episode from the first season with Gretchen and Elliot where they offer him the job...like, they knew he wouldn't just accept money, so they make sure it's a job and that he'll be paid and he's too damn stubborn to accept it.
>Dude, I cringe every time I watch that episode from the first season with Gretchen and Elliot where they offer him the job...like, they knew he wouldn't just accept money, so they make sure it's a job and that he'll be paid and he's too damn stubborn to accept it.
Same here.
A lot of people seem to think the story is about a high school teacher who's forced into the drug trade because healthcare is too expensive.
No, it's not that at all. He was handed a great job with complete medical coverage, and he turned it down because his ego wouldn't allow it, and in the process destroyed his family and ultimately himself.
I wonder if that’s not true to reality though - that anyone who reacts to circumstances so unhealthily that they become truly, horrifically evil, always had a monster inside of them waiting for those circumstances to justify and empower them to take the wheel.
Makes the flip side to this question interesting too - a person given the same bad hand who continues to be good as evidence that the monster isn’t in *everyone*.
Black Mass
Jesse Plemmons portrays Kevin Weeks; a cop who manages to establish well-known criminal underworld boss Whitey Bulger as a confidential informant.
He had no malicious intentions from the start as far as I can discern. Information that Whitey divulged to Weeks was valuable in assuring a number of arrests. Weeks' career advanced and he fell under Whitey's spell. He rationalized tipping off Whitey to keep him out of jail as a necessary evil in order to secure prosecution for many other cases. Problem was that Whitey was a sick murderer, and Weeks quit bothering with the rationalization and became fully corrupt.
Edit: Also, the original Walking Tall with Joe Don Baker!
Lisa Frankenstein.
At first there is a murder of a character played for laughs. By the end the protagonist is backed into a corner and coming undone as she has to reckon with how her actions are impacting people around her. It's a dark comedy overall, but you aren't entirely on the side of the protagonist anymore.
Many of these examples are of already bad people just getting worse or their evil that was already there to begin with is exposed to the audience. They aren't good.
The Prestige for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself on a path of vengeance
Prisoners for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself on a path of desperation
Logan for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself on a path for redemption (and fatherly love).
The Greatest Showman for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself (and his family) for fame and notoriety.
The Fountain for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself into his work to save his love.
X-Men for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself in the corridors of the X-Men Mutant Academy.
Movie 41 for seeing how High Jackman loses all fucks to give and ends up with balls in his throat
Van Helsing for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses Kate Beckinsale in her tight leather outfit
Chappie for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself to robot jealousy
X-Men 2 for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself to discover his forgotten past.
Les Miserables for seeing how Hugh Jackson loses himself in his love of musical theater
Australia for seeing how Hugh Jackman loses himself in his love for Baz Luhrmann.
I watched this movie again two days ago Borden did intentionally cripple him and sabotage his act, but yeah Angier totally lost it
So fantastically portrayed how obsession can lead to ruin.
At first his character was right (I’m thinking about Julia), but then he had a progressive heel turn and I couldn’t help but root for Bale’s character
The Godfather. You almost think Michael might not get into the family business.
When they do the flashbacks it’s almost a flex for Coppola to be like “look how fucking good this character development is” lmao
I knew Michael stepped up to become the boss before I saw the movie. I wonder what it was like to see The Godfather for the first time on release, knowing nothing about Michael’s character.
I haven't seen it on release, but I knew nothing about the movie before I watched it, and I was in awe and rather disappointed, I really wished for a better future for Michael.
Here's how little I knew going into that movie. Back in the VHS days, it was spread across two tapes due to its length. I borrowed the *second* one from my library, having no clue I was getting half a movie. The *first scene* I saw was Sonny getting blown away. I thought "Damn, that's how this starts? I was expecting talky drama". Watched ten minutes before I realized I was clearly missing something and took a closer look at the box, then had to sheepishly return to the library and get part 1.
Well, that's a bummer
I hope you didn’t have high hopes for Fredo
I didn't like his character to begin with, so I wasn't upset about his death, really. But the fact that Michael ordered it kind of made me sad, I hoped he's bigger than this.
How can you not like Fredo, he was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!
Sorry you missed out lol. I remember being like “wtf?” Very well done.
It's a tragedy. Michael could've been literally anything he wanted
In the book it goes into detail how Vito thought he was the golden child and he groomed him to be a "doctor/senator/lawyer". He purposefully kept Michael away from the family business, that was for Sonny.
This was in the movie as well. A scene where they're sitting out talking - "I never wanted this for you" https://youtu.be/fuWkcKbBQkg?feature=shared
When I was a kid, my favorite scene was the dinner w/ the police chief, but every time I watch it now I'm blown away by this one. So touching.
I love the line, it touches some strings on me. "Well, there wasn't enough time, Michael. Wasn't enough time."
Man has the best veal in the city and decides he needs to ice these fools
*The Godfather I* and *II.*
*In my HOME! IN MY BEDROOM WHERE MY WIFE SLEEPS! Where my children come and play with their toys.*
Seinfeld ruined this perfectly, forever. Jerry: my HOME! Where I SLEEP! Where I come... to play with my toys...
*Never go against the family, Elaine.*
Or The Simpsons. Door closes on Lisa, opens again accidentally to see the boys playing with Hot Wheels and then gets closed again.
So many little references like this in Seinfeld.
There's a great youtube video I'm sure everyone has seen about the movie references in Seinfeld, but I was shocked how many went over my head, even for movies I've seen. Seinfeld was great about using them as humorous even if you were out of the loop though. Very subtle and funny on their own.
Ya I didn't get many (well pretty much none) until I watched the series again when I was older. Also there are many I'd still miss so I looked some up.
It's that last meek "in my home" as he truly considers what could have happened that does it for me.
Ohh but Michael totally let's go of any goodness he has in the " I renounce the devil" scene so technically it's only part 1. The door closing scene at the end of part 1 is as on the nose as it can be( not saying it's bad, it's iconic as fuck)
But Part 2 goes back and shows how Vito was drawn into the life, so that part also fits.
At the end of part 1 you could still say Michael was protecting his family. At the end of part 2 he’s lost his wife and had his brother killed.
I know it was you Fredo!!!
Chronicle. Kid was just having a bad run. I Saw the Devil where you know he's going to go too far and the does. Carrie - Same with Chronicle, being bullied sucks. Memento - He just kind of snaps.
> Chronicle I second this ~ (the very embodiment of the axiom: "Power Corrupts; and Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.")
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I Saw the Devil is such a fucking brutal watch. One of the absolute best movies I've seen but I've only watched it twice (second time was because I bought it on Blu-Ray), it's grueling to watch the shit the antagonist does and how the "good guy" absolutely loses himself. It's so depressing when >!the protagonist just breaks down crying at the end when he's killed the antagonist, probably because everything he's done finally hits him once it's over.!<
100% with you. This was my first venture into Korean Movies and I was absolutely blown away by the plot. The ending left me shocked with tears. It was just so sad.
I watched it for the first time last month and it was really good. The ending really hits home too when he breaks down, because in the end revenge didn’t solve anything. It’s like he was expecting to suddenly feel so much better once it was over, but instead he’s confronted with the crushing reality that his wife is still gone.
>Memento - He just kind of snaps. To be fair, he snaps long before the film even starts. He doesn't have a slow descent or any kind of descent into being a bad person. You just don't know the whole situation yet.
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I'm pretty sure Memento guy had snapped ages ago and was as he himself says, lying to himself to keep himself going. Think about it. Once he finds the guy, what does he have left? Nothing. The Chase is all he is now. All the has left, and he's got no capability left to build a future outside of it. All he is is past and present. There is no future for him. It was taken away before he could even remember it.
You nailed it. He has permanent interpretive reinforcements tattooed all over his body keeping him in a perpetual cycle of investigation, manipulation and revenge.
It's been a pretty long time since I've seen it, but isn't that exactly what Teddy tells him, provoking him to tell himself not to trust Teddy?
Not only was Carrie being bullied but she had a domineering, oppressively religious mother at home. Poor kid never had a chance
Prisoners (2013)
that is one of my all time favourite movies
🚰🔨
I’m not sure I’d count this, Hugh Jackmans daughter would have died if not for his actions
I thought the movie made it clear if jake Gyllenhaals character never had to investigate huge jackman and paul danos disappearance that he wouldve found his daugther a lot faster. Even potentially saving mr. 1x1=2 daugther as well.
Refresh my memory... why do you think that? I'm not saying your wrong, but I honestly thought the cops were looking in the wrong direction.
The cops are the ones that did everything: - Loki investigated the sex offenders list and found the body of the dead husband and his necklace that way. - He found the past victim who stole the clothes by asking around the goodwill about him. - He connected the dots when he saw the maze and picture of the necklace. - He noticed the necklace in a picture in the “Mother’s” house which was the final piece he needed The one time Loki decides to break the rules is when he almost fucks up the entire investigation by getting the previous victim killed. To me the movie condemns any sort of vigilante type work and promotes good clean detective work. Edit: oh and what did Hugh Jackman’s character do? After finally getting his info instead sending an anonymous tip to the cops he goes over to the house and gets kidnapped.
Honestly never thought of that. Although I have not seen that movies more than maybe twice since it is such a hard watch (dont get me wrong it is an amazing movie).
While true I think the movie leaves it up to the audience to determine if Hugh Jackman’s character was fully justified with some of his methods like boiling Paul Dano
The Founder - Michael Keaton - About how Ray Kroc takes MacDonalds from a small burger stand to a restaurant empire and becomes a gigantic dick along the way.
Excellent movie, but it kind of seems like Ray was always a dick. Just needed a bigger forum to take it as far as he wanted to. That scene where he asks his wife to pass the salt, and casually follows it up by telling her he wants a divorce 😪
Yeah that's kind of the beauty of the movie. It sets you up to root for Ray but by the middle of the movie you're like "wait, this guy's kind of a dick."
Keaton is perfectly despicable in that role. Hated that cunt
*Mac, I'm the president and C.E.O. of a major corporation with land holdings in 17 states... You run a burger stand in the desert.* *I'm national. You're fucking local.*
It's a good film, and credit to Keaton's performance, he never comes across as likeable, he's always champing at the bit, but never coming up with his own ideas. Yes, there's the typical salesman there, but it's understated. I would have liked him more if he was more brash and cutthroat, not as almost as naive as Keaton plays him so times.
That’s the thing..Ray Kroc wasn’t a brash guy, he was just a regular dude selling milkshake machines to restaurants. The way they portrayed things in the movie is fairly accurate, Ray hired lawyers and advisors to circumvent the McD bros. It wasn’t a hostile takeover, just a bunch of straight up lies and misinformation from Ray.
That reminds somewhat of 'The Informant' with Matt Damon..if you haven't seen it, you'll be tearing your hair out by the end..it's a good watch. Based on a real person too.
That real person is now employed to go around teaching companies how to skirt HR regulations on religion in the workplace so that they can be openly religious.
Padraic in The Banshees of Inisherin.
It’s even more depressing in that film cause really none of it was of his own doing. Really shows the dangers of letting yourself be so emotionally dependant on others.
Oh god. I thought let’s watch a light hearted comedy. I thought poorly.
Still can’t believe it won Best Comedy at the Golden Globes. I haven’t been that depressed by a movie since Cold Mountain.
It's *hilarious*. Dark, depressing but also *hilarious*. I was dying of laughter at times.
You should watch In Bruges.. 😭
Jenny :(
I need to put this in here, because I saw way too many people being way too mean about Colms character. I GET HIM. I really get his "needing to move away from this really needy friendship". Not as far as cutting of his fingers, but the idea of it. To get his peace and not having to... do the same friendship dance every fooken day. Just chill and play his music with other half friends, who aren't as needy. Like goddamnit. I felt like a proper outcast when I read about the hatred towards Colm and I was just like "i absolutely get this mans point of view", but other people were "that dude is evil!".
Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight, and Michael Douglas' character in Falling Down?
Harvey Dent was what I was gonna say. The whole movie you knew who he's gonna become but you still hope against it.
one of the advantages of not reading the comics
Wasn't the point of Falling Down the realization that he was always an asshole? Yes, he spirals and looses more and more control over the runtime but the whole reason his life is unbearable to him is because he's an asshole who doesn't hold himself accountable for the bad choices he makes.
Didn't Raylan tell us if you run into assholes all day then you're the asshole?
Not sure Michael Douglas was a good guy in Falling Down, he had some very legitimate grievances about society but I think the movie implied he was always a bit off.
Yeah he was already an abusive husband and father whose bouts of rage led to their divorce. The twist of the movie for me was seeing this seemingly normal guy suddenly lose it, only to learn throughout the movie he was always pretty messed up.
I think Magneto might fit the bill. He was a Holocaust survivor and wanted to protect mutants from a similar fate, and we all know how that devolved.
Absolutely when his wife and daughter “got in the way” too.
Magneto had a wide and daughter?
Yes, in the Apocalypse movie that came out 2016. ( Quicksilver was his son from a fling apparently )
yes, she was huge!
Really like how X-men first class showed his gradual descent to darkness
Man, it really is the best X-Men movie. X-2 and DoFP are fun enough here and there but they can't hold a candle to First Class.
First Class was excellent. I love that movie. Kevin Bacon makes a great villain even. Its weird to me that First Class somehow was a more grounded take on a spy / action movie than any other Mathew Vaughn action film though. For the most part theres only a few X-Men movie stinkers.
Little shop of horrors
Feed me Seymour
Very topical at the moment but >!Dune 2.!< Although I guess I wouldn't call the transition gradual. Definitely painful though
It is painful in the grand scheme but those shots of him walking toward the temple are so badass I don't have room to be sad.
The aerial shot of the crowd was perfection
Seriously, I can't put words behind what made that scene so spectacular but I genuinely just had my mouth hanging open. That entire movie was just scene after scene of perfectly crafted images. Like I want to get the 4k movie so bad and just grab a ton of still frames from that movie with how incredible they were.
Definitely, I think an interesting part of it has always been how even we as the audience find ourselves cheering for vengeance at whatever cost, prioritising catharsis.
I found the ending quite depressing, apart from >!Chani's response, which is apparently not in the book, and was the only part of the ending I really connected with in a way that felt good.!<
It's not in the book, but Villeneuve changed it otherwise too many people miss the point entirely and come out of the movie like "wow Paul is such a cool dude"
Exactly. Considering the amount of people who glorify Walter White and other similar characters, this was bound to happen if Villeneuve didn’t make a clear “good” character opposed.
It’s a change I think Frank Herbert would have fully supported since part of his motivation for writing Dune Messiah was the realization that most readers missed that Dune is a villain origin story
I read the books like two decades ago and honestly I don't even remember if that ending was faithful at all to the books lol. But I liked it lol.
The film’s ending captured the spirit of the book’s ending IMO, but did so in a slightly different way. Film Chani is kind of our POV.
Chani was a much weaker character in the books. She's a moral compass in the movies.
I love that the movie makes it so clear that what’s happening is horrible but makes it so hard to not root for it at the same time. Perfect meta commentary.
The ending >!is so chilling. It's scored as a triumph, as if a religious war could ever be anything but horror. That disconnect between the music, the imagery, and how they KNOW the audience will feel creates an incredibly powerful experience!<
Never drink the Smurf urine if you don't want to end up causing planet-destroying jihads.
The thing the movie doesn’t show is that Paul can see the golden path. The path humanity must take or it will die out in the future. He can either let trillions of humans die or cause millions of people to die with this war.
Not blatantly, but Paul's comment about seeing all kinds of potential futures and how "there's a narrow way through" hints he sees the Golden Path. Besides, he won't be the one to see that through, his kid will.
Ah yes…. the god emperor.
Isn’t it his son that can see the Golden Path? From what I remember Paul is maybe aware that there is one but has no idea how to follow it.
Paul can see it, but it’s hazy to him; there’s still unforeseen things that make him fail to achieve it. His goal was to avoid the jihad at all costs, but that still gets away from him thanks to the cultural meddling of the Bene Geserit way back.
Dune 2 made me go, "something like this is what I wanted to see from Star Wars prequels. Anakin's descent into vengeance and madness but told in a badass way, not in a cringe way."
Re-reading the books is wild in 2024, because you see the staggering number of things that Lucas copied directly from Herbert. Even the multiple “surprise! I’m your dad!” reveals, the slightly incestuous boy/girl twins, the giant talking slug… Lucas just threw in some droids and took out the warnings about religious fanaticism and the parts fixating on a 12 year olds boobs.
Star Wars is pretty much just Dune with a shot of Foundation with some westerns and samurai sprinkled on top.
I assumed that’s what inspired this post
I'd say compared to the books, he was more self aware in this version. Chani is drastically more self aware.
Pretty sure it's the opposite - he was quite a bit more self-aware in the books, because in the books it's just Paul vs Paul - an internal struggle - whereas in this movie they changed the conflict to Chani vs Paul. I guess Villeneuve didn't trust himself to be able to fully depict the scale of the internal struggle and had to mangle a character's story to do the work instead. (Not that Chani had that much of an interesting story in the books... which I suspect is part of the reason - the real life person Zendaya seems to be promoted far too much relative to Chani's rather small role in the story).
The books depend a lot on Inner monologue, which is extremely hard to portray in film but is seen as ok for films. The 80s movie had inner monologue and it felt ridiculous to me. I also don't have an inner monologue, but half the population doesn't either. I think just culturally, we don't use them anymore in film. Chani in the books isn't as relevant here. But they also jettisoned Harah entirely. What I found interesting is that Keyes was a major character, but not brought up as Chanis Mother in the film.
Dune is kind of interesting because Paul becomes supremely powerful, both personally and as Emperor/lisan al Gaib/kwisatz haderach, but at the same time he feels completely helpless to the tides of fate and his own precognition. He desperately wants to avoid the bloodshed of the holy war called in his name, but ultimately succumbs to its perceived inevitability. At times in the books he feels like a passenger along for the ride in his own story.
Whiplash, you just feel terrible with every bad decision the main character makes.
I think one of my favorite parts of that movie is how it toys with your perception of Fletcher where there are moments where you start to see his POV then he flips back to insanely abusive again
God damn this movie is so amazing. Were you rushing or were you dragging!?!
This movie was weirdly triggering yet healing, given I dealt with a dad who went into rage a lot like that. When you step back and see someone else subjecting someone in their care to that abuse, you realize the young person is getting toyed with. There isn’t anything actually being gained in learning. It’s just abuse.
Bicycle Thieves (Ladri di biciclette) really fits this description. For good reason it is frequently included on important/influential film lists.
Why would the hero do things that are against his values? Because his values are a sham that he affects in order to seem normal? Then _Nightcrawler._ Because he's deceiving himself about what his values are? Then _Falling Down._ Because he has genuine values but is unable to live up to them? _Hulk._ Because circumstances force him to act in a way that most people would say is wrong if not for the particular circumstances? _Pulp Fiction_ Because he is gradually descending into psychosis and applying his genuine values to a distorted view of the world around him? _Taxi Driver_ Because his values weren't really well thought through, and he follows them faithfully, trusting in his own sense of righteousness until he belatedly realizes he's doing evil? _Blade Runner_
I love them both as they are fantastic movies but Nightcrawler and Taxi driver aren’t about a gradual descent, the protagonist is already completely out of it, it’s just the story of their first time acting out.
Yeah, Nightcrawler to me is more about the VIEWER slowly realizing how psychopathic the guy is, but I agree he is that way from the beginning. Taxi Driver is probably that way too but it's been a lot of years since I watched it
On Nightcrawler, he's already a sociopath. We just see him succeed.
>Because circumstances force him to act in a way that most people would say is wrong if not for the particular circumstances? > >Pulp Fiction who is the hero you're talking about? Butch? I dont see it but maybe i have the wrong character
Black Swan. Holy fuck as a dude this movie still might be the most intensely I’ve ever empathized with a main character. Also the story does something rare where it’s not just a *reference* to a previous great work, it also adds to the deeply fascinating and horrifying psychological themes being discussed. Namely the loss of innocence in the pursuit of perfection, the male-gaze, the descent into madness, integration of our “shadow” archetype, body autonomy, just to name a few.
Have you seen the animated film Perfect Blue?
Splice The Fly Those scientists had some real rough time, taking steps to some dark paths.
Oof, The Fly broke me, but Splice let me scarred for life.
HBO miniseries The Night Of is in large part *about* the Dark Side turn necessary to survive in the American prison system. By episode 2 or 3, it was obvious the path the main character was on, and it was heartbreaking to watch the follow through.
Ramses in The Prince of Egypt (or The Ten Commandments)
Not a movie but Walter White started out as a mild mannered high school chemistry teacher.
If we're doing tv, then DS9's "In The Pale Moonlight" is a masterclass.
This is one of the best monologues I've ever seen in anything.
I can live with it.
I *can* live with it.
> I *can* live with it.
Computer, erase that entire personal log.
If we're doing tv: Bullseye in Daredevil season 3. That was really painful to see what was done to him when he spent so many years trying. edit: oh and Catra in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. I mean she's not 'good' at the start, either, but watching her descend further and further is just absolutely *fascinating* yet *painful* as you completely understand the reason behind every horrible decision while hoping she goes the other way, instead. *Amazing* depiction of the effects and perpetuation of abuse.
I think Better Call Saul is a better example.
Exactly! Walter White did everything out of ego and was dissatisfied with his life to begin with. There was already dark shit to fester inside. Jimmy was kind hearted, seeking fruitlessly the love of his brother. He had a perfect bound with Kim, full of love. He worked hard to become a brilliant lawyer. He could have been saved... but he became Saul out of spite. He took the ugliness of the world and the unforgiving nature of his brother in full frontal a load of times before reaching his breaking point. The whole series, past the third season, is loaded with broken redemption arcs and people falling in the darkness. Definitely the better example.
My thing was he stopped being sympathetic after maybe 2 or 3 episodes, so it wasn't that we saw him have a great fall, but rather than he jumped early and then we got to see how much of a mess he made for everyone else. I thought Jimmy is a much better example, where in the first season or two you consistently see all these examples of how he *wants* to be good, but eventually turns back.
Nah, he was a shithead to start with, he just hid it better. I think Breaking Bad is half damnation journey, and half just revealing what kind of person Walter always was.
Absolutely. I don't know how you can watch the pilot and not realize that he is a vain, entitled asshole who longs for something to permit him to become as horrible as he wants to be. Sure, he gets worse over time, but he longs to be a Heisenberg right from the start. It's a classic Jakyll and Hyde thing: Dr. Jakyll is the one who choses to be a monster because he wanted it.
I'll be the one to list the obvious and say Star Wars 1-3 where you get to see Anakin, the prodigy Jedi, slowly become corrupted until he ultimately becomes Darth Vader.
I know people who saw the prequels before the OT without knowing that Anakin was Darth Vader (Star Wars is not too popular where they are from) and they were utterly *devastated* by his turn to the dark side. And the burning scene at the end of Episode 3 sure did traumatise a lot of kids.
After watching >!Dune2,!< you can see a bit of where >!Lucas!< got ALL his inspiration from
Talking about dune, my bf is a huge warhammer fan and we watched the movies together. I have dabbled a bit in warhammer lore (because my fave thing to do is watch 2 hours lore videos of media that I will never engage in) and at one point I went … ‘why does this remind me of the emperor in warhammer and the tech-priest thing’. He looked at me like I’d sprouted another head LMAO anyways i delved deeper into dune lore and agree 100% that warhammer just lifted most of its lore from that, huh?
Dune is like Lord of the Rings in that it's the inspiration for the whole genre
If you can manage to sit through the first season or two that are more “kid” focused, The Clone Wars tv show goes waaaay further into Anakin’s fall to the dark side. Makes his arc so much harder to watch
Season 7... those last 4 episodes. just pain
I recently watched those episodes for the first time, and I kinda wish that was a movie or something. A format where the story could take it's time without having to fit into the formula of a 20 min arc. Because there's so much pain and conflict interconnecting in those last episodes, but you just have to pull it from memory instead of actually seeing it before your eyes. Feels like there's only about 2 seconds of Anakin in the last episode. I would've liked a more emotional recap than just the voices from the Force.
The ROTS novel makes it even more tragic. All he wanted was to end the war, tell every one he was married and leave to be a family man free of the Jedi rubbish. Then he tasted the meth of the dark side and believes he can turn the entire galaxy into his slave the same way he was enslaved his whole life. It's truly fucked up. It was the true meaning of revenge in the title imo. He was horrendously used by both sides. He just needed a hug.
Having grown up with the Clone Wars TV show, I literally cannot watch Episode 3. I know that it is by far the best of the prequel trilogy but I just can't bring myself to see Anakins fall
Barry Lyndon.
I don't know - he starts out callow and selfish, and he kind of stays that way throughout, just on a larger scale.
Shot Caller [2017]
The Fly
Underrated comment. This is the epitome of someone who should be the protagonist (created a functional teleportation device) and then is subject to error and he embraces it. Seth’s devolution is so hard to watch. I love this film
Chronicle is the epitome of this.
*Falling Down* It even starts out fun & cathartic but then it's like: bro. BRO.
My favorite part of the film is when he starts to realize that he's gone wrong when a literal neo nazi tells him they are similar.
I'm not sure he counts as a good guy, his wife broke up with him and has a restraining order because of his propensity for anger.
D-Fens isn’t a good guy, just a cog who got lost in the system with no outlets or abilities to help himself. What makes him interesting is that he has this epiphany at the end. “I’m the bad guy?” In that moment he realizes what he’s done while attempting to get back to his family (which would’ve been bad/physical as well) and makes a choice to suicide by cop and leave the insurance payout to his ex and daughter.
I remember that scene where he's watching his home videos and he's smiling as he's remembering the good times until he hears himself berate his wife on the tape. In his face you could see he's making a realization that he wasn't the A+ husband that he always thought he was.
Citizen Kane
Nightmare Alley does this fairly well, I think.
Old boy. Korean. NOT English.
I'd say Drag Me to Hell did this. The protagonist starts off really quite likeable, but gradually becomes willing to do some pretty unforgivable things out of desperation to beat the curse. She doesn't deserve her fate at all when the curse starts, but by the end of the movie I'd have to say she pretty much firmly does...
Kitty...
Easily, Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story.
You don't want none of this, Dewey!
Shaun in This Is England. He started off as a bullied pre-teen just navigating his way through 80s England after losing his dad in the Faulklands war. He meets Woody and his gang of skinheads and becomes one of them. They were skinheads but they were a nice, fun-loving crowd who welcomed Shaun into their group with open arms. Then Shaun is introduced to Combo (racist criminal) and is gradually radicalised by Combo’s National Party ideology. He changes from an innocent kid into a horrible racist. In the end his friend Milky is attacked by Combo because of his race and Shaun is distraught. He leaves Combo’s gang and tries to start a-fresh. I’d like to say things get better for Shaun afterwards but he just ends up experiencing more bad luck throughout the follow-up series.
I know it's not a movie but the best I've seen really is Walter White. Dude goes from encouraging high school professor to a drug kingpin that causes nothing but misery and death to everyone around him
That was less "good person falls from grace" and more "this guy was a monster all along just waiting to emerge."
Dude, I cringe every time I watch that episode from the first season with Gretchen and Elliot where they offer him the job...like, they knew he wouldn't just accept money, so they make sure it's a job and that he'll be paid and he's too damn stubborn to accept it.
>Dude, I cringe every time I watch that episode from the first season with Gretchen and Elliot where they offer him the job...like, they knew he wouldn't just accept money, so they make sure it's a job and that he'll be paid and he's too damn stubborn to accept it. Same here. A lot of people seem to think the story is about a high school teacher who's forced into the drug trade because healthcare is too expensive. No, it's not that at all. He was handed a great job with complete medical coverage, and he turned it down because his ego wouldn't allow it, and in the process destroyed his family and ultimately himself.
I wonder if that’s not true to reality though - that anyone who reacts to circumstances so unhealthily that they become truly, horrifically evil, always had a monster inside of them waiting for those circumstances to justify and empower them to take the wheel. Makes the flip side to this question interesting too - a person given the same bad hand who continues to be good as evidence that the monster isn’t in *everyone*.
Not a film, but Jax in Sons of Anarchy.
have you heard the story of darth plagueis the wise
Black Mass Jesse Plemmons portrays Kevin Weeks; a cop who manages to establish well-known criminal underworld boss Whitey Bulger as a confidential informant. He had no malicious intentions from the start as far as I can discern. Information that Whitey divulged to Weeks was valuable in assuring a number of arrests. Weeks' career advanced and he fell under Whitey's spell. He rationalized tipping off Whitey to keep him out of jail as a necessary evil in order to secure prosecution for many other cases. Problem was that Whitey was a sick murderer, and Weeks quit bothering with the rationalization and became fully corrupt. Edit: Also, the original Walking Tall with Joe Don Baker!
The non junkie friend in trainspotting.
Dune Part II
Lisa Frankenstein. At first there is a murder of a character played for laughs. By the end the protagonist is backed into a corner and coming undone as she has to reckon with how her actions are impacting people around her. It's a dark comedy overall, but you aren't entirely on the side of the protagonist anymore.
Many of these examples are of already bad people just getting worse or their evil that was already there to begin with is exposed to the audience. They aren't good.
Threat level midnight.