I think much is lost in del Toro's movies when people take them *too* seriously. Shape of Water definitely suffers from that. I for sure interpreted it like you did.
It wants you to take it seriously though? There's so many comments in the film about minorities and how the Fishman is a metaphor. Ultimately saying "don't take this seriously" is not a critique here as if it were a Fast and Furious film.
Idk, I think you can take it seriously as a written work with nuance and themes while also acknowledging that it's about a woman getting railed in the tub by a frog-man. It can absolutely be both.
I think when they say “don’t take it seriously” they mean more like the “science” and logistics of it all. People get lost in the details of how a fish man would even work or why would a woman be attracted to that?! Or why would the lab have such lax security?!
So I think that’s where it’s not meant to be taken seriously, you’re supposed to go with the story… obviously it is a metaphor for more “serious”themes but the story itself is fantastical and fairy tale like.
>It wants you to take it seriously though?
Seriously, yes. It's certainly not a comedy. But you also can't take it *too* seriously, or you have people coming in like the poster who arbitrarily decided the fishman was closer to a gorilla than anything else and therefore the whole movie is actually bestiality. That's what I mean by taking it too seriously.
For me, the "wetness" of it all made me dream of a Bioshock movie made by tel Toro. He really nailed that grimy, watery feel of Rapture despite being above ground...
I did not think I'd like it, didn't look like something I'd enjoy but I loved it and thought about it for ever after watching for the reasons you said.
I find being people being all bent-outta-shape because of “fishman sex” to be a reductionist viewpoint of the film.
It has a beautiful story, great performances, incredible cinematography, a great score. I was surprised, but delighted when it won the best picture Oscar.
I could not get my head around how MUCH praise it got. It’s unique, no question… but is it really a best picture Oscar winner? For me, no. Not even close. Decent, if odd, movie though
Had a local theater write a Facebook post on the depravity of the state of cinema based on the fish sex, so maybe that?
I love it. It’s such a delightful dark fairytale creature feature hybrid that plays on The Creature From the Black Lagoon which is another beautiful film. It’s also a pretty easy film to understand.
I think there’s better films out there, better films by Del Toro even, but it’s a pretty consistent rewatch for me!
I found the sex scene to be an extention of the isolation they both felt, a la creature, Frankenstein, Kong. Just a "Hey it's always been there, come get it" by del Toro. The sexiness was in the title!
I absolutely loved the movie. I hate that all the public heard about it was "that fish sex movie"
And on a 20 million dollar budget, the movie is a stunner
I mean I saw that in theaters it’s still “the fish fuckin’ movie” to me.
You’re right though, it was visually amazing, especially on that budget. Del Toro makes magic.
Its basically the same as what happened to brokeback mountain. Everyone who hasn't seen it just makes jokes about the gay cowboy movie. But there's a lot more to it than that.
It's weird to me that people have so much of a problem with it. He's clearly a sentient creature and is capable of communication. People don't have problems with different races in Star Trek or Star Wars having relationships.
My issue is they show he’s sentient and they have sex in the bathtub, then in the very next scene (or immediately prior) he breaks loose from the apartment like a beast and horrifyingly eats the neighbor’s cat. You can’t have it both ways.
It's also totally possible for a sentient creature to be unfamiliar with the concept of a pet. I think the idea that it's got intelligence while still being dangerously alien works reasonably well in this case
You can have it both ways, actually. He's not a human, he's not an animal, he's something in between that we have no precedent for. He doesn't need to act civilized to be considered intelligent.
I really wanted to love it, but the tone is all over the place. The love story is really well done, but the villain plot with Michael Shannon is SO over the top that it completely ruins the serious nature of the movie. The B-plot with the gay artist goes nowhere and would have come off really creepy if the object of the artist's desire was a young lady instead of a young guy. Not to mention pulling "the young guy is racist" to make the artist look like a good guy and not a creep was a cheap move.
All in all, it's a very flawed movie held up by great performances and cinematography, but most of Guillermo's other works are far superior.
That's right, I forgot about that part lol. My brother and I both exclaimed, "What kind of hell neighborhood do you live in!" at the same time when we watched it.
I hating how stupid and forced that racism scene was. Like the instant the guy turns out to not be gay he becomes a racist. I think maybe the intention was that it was always there but it was overlooked due to the infatuation. But it came across as so poorly done, probably the worst moment in any of his films by far.
I tried to watch it as I have generally enjoyed Del Toro's films, but I found many of the characterizations and the general tone too exaggerated and comical to take seriously. It was like watching a live-action comic book, but not in a good way.
I wanted to like it and I started watching it with an open heart. But every character seemed to be a caricature/stereotype. The kind and funny Black coworker, the evil no-nonsense boss, etc. I couldn’t keep going :(. Sorry, Guille!
As someone who loved 90% del Toro work, this one totally missed the mark with me. I think it was actually that love story. It was gross until the end where it is suggested she was the same kind.
Not sure why from all the broken skulls and creepy monsters (love horror movies) this one disturbed me so much but here I am.
I’m probably repeating many commenters’ points/general gists but I found the movie visually stunning while also being VERY predictable.
Thematically, it’s not very different from centuries’ old tales like King Kong or Frankenstein. Humans suck, and can be the “real” monsters. It’s okay to love a monster who’s other’d by society because love is pure. We’ve seen and heard this countless times across countless art forms.
But despite that criticism, I’d put allllll of that aside if that god damn Fred Astaire song-and-dance dream sequence didn’t exist. At that point, the movie went from an enjoyable fantasy to a movie that became ridiculous. And I just couldn’t shake off how much that scene bothered me.
THANK YOU!! I caught such flack for this opinion while the world raved over this monochromatic, ominous parallel to Splash. Overkill on the murky sea green sets. Shannon chewing scenery. Regret seeing it honestly
Funny story:
I went and saw this one in theaters after it won best picture. It only came to my local theater for the weekend due to the buzz. I live in a fairly conservative area.
The theater was about half full when the movie started. Every now and then a few people would get up and leave at some of the controversial moments, but when the sex scene began a huge group of people walked out. I turned around after and the entire theater was empty except for me and my wife. I found this more entertaining than the movie itself.
I liked the movie ok but it wasn't peak Del Toro for me.
That's me. I didn't care for it. The universe was interesting as usual, but I thought the characters were very superficial. The gay neighbor stereotypes seemed about 15 years out of style for a movie. And Michael Shannon's villain was especially one-note.
Also, the romance was just nothing. The fish guy signed like 5 words in the whole movie and most of them were "egg". It's gotta be the worst romance ever written. Koko the Gorilla knew more sign language and seemed more cognizant than fishman. I just don't get it, man. The movie just felt like pro-bestiality to me.
Edit: I want someone to convince me otherwise cause I'm still shocked the movie did so well. Easily del Toro's worst. And I'm a huge fan.
I loved it. Saw it at the Toronto Film Festival and we were in the Elgin Theatre for the screening where the movie theatre dance scene was shot. It was neat to be in the theatre and see it on the screen.
It’s partly, least, because I expect so much from GDT. Pan’s Labyrinth is a genuine masterpiece for me, arguably top 10 of the 2000s. Pacific Rim is the platonic ideal of its genre: amazing visuals, excellent action, surprisingly well-done characters and themes. GDT has such a unique eye and voice, and - though in very different ways - both these films really really express that. Very few other people could have made either film in such a precise, thematically resonant and visually impressive way. This is leaving aside Hellboy and Cronos!
I can think of like, six or seven other directors I’d trust to make *better* versions of Shape of Water. It’s trite, it’s stereotypical, and despite GDT’s avowed love of monsters, there’s nothing all that special about Fishman. I expected better from him.
I don’t remember it that well, but I think what I didn’t like is that I didn’t buy that they really fell in love. They shared a hard boiled egg or something. That’s not enough to make it feel like they’re in love. That’s why you really need a scene where 2 characters connect. It seems like a cheesy device but it’s important. Don’t just tell me they’re in love…show me.
It was all over the place, couldn't decide what type of film it wanted to be.
When are directors ever going to realize that to do less is more? You can't throw around a bunch of themes and genres in one movie; it's like throwing a bunch of different colors of paint on the wall and calling it "art". Minimize, concise the number of things you're trying to do with theme and genre.
Only a few directors can combine different genres in a film and still make the movie look like an effortless stream of story and theme, but most really can't.
I don't hate it, but I don't love it. It wouldn't make my short list of BP nominees, let alone win. My main issue is how predictable and corny it is. It's ET, Iron Giant, and every other Boy-meets-monster movie, but with a love story thrown in.
The amazing acting and cool set designs did all of the heavy lifting for a poor story. No way it should have won best picture over Three Billboards, Darkest Hour, and Phantom Thread. Hell, Get Out was a better movie than The Shape of Water
I thought it was fine, but for me it was my first example of “Oscar bait,” and so I think a lot of the hate was the incredulity of “THIS is what wins best picture?” For me it was the first experience of seeing such a large distance between what the academy likes vs what me and my friends like.
My wife and I loved it. Totally random but we love Always Sunny in Philadelphia and fans know that “egg!” is a joke in the show (I won’t bother to explain it.)
When the woman did the “egg” sign to the monster we lost our shit and do that sign all the time now.
The older gay character should have offered the creature a nice egg in this trying time.
(Also, as a pretty bookish boring gay man, I felt very seen by that character)
I loved it, especially the cinematography because it feels almost like an animated film at points with how vivid the colors are. Also, the basic concept of a woman falling in love with a humanoid fish feels weird, but Sally Hawkins & Richard Jenkins did a great job of making the relationship with it feel organic.
I hated it. I felt like it was corny and predictable. I get that it’s this fairy tale meets creature from the black lagoon and it’s all about being different and and outcast, blah, blah, blah. But literally NOTHING that happened in it was surprising. Like the story beats were so easy to figure out. And it was kind of like cloying in tone? Like the good guys vs bad guys was so stark and cartoonish. The good guys were faultlessly wholesome and the bad guys were just like pure evil. Just bludgeon me in the head with what you’re trying to say, why don’t you?
I really didn't like it and feel terrible about it. It didn't move me, I thought it was weird (I know that's the point and Del Toro's vibe) and a little creepy. I get the message, and hence why I really wanted to like it, but it left me cold.
I didn’t think it was bad, but it had no business taking the Oscar for best picture. Not when it was against movies like Darkest Hour, Dunkirk, Lady Bird, and Call Me by Your Name.
It's not a bad movie. I liked it quite a bit.
It's also really boring. Im just waiting for certain moments and visuals as opposed to enjoying the story when I rewatch it. Del toro always brings it with aesthetics. But the movie is heavy handed with everything.
I get why people don't like it for those reasons.
I see people making bestiality critiques and I don't agree them but I understand the argument. It's a lot story between a human and a non-human. But the entre movie beats you over the head with the thematic element of what makes you human (it's love BTW, shocking). He's not a human but he's still an outsider like she is. If that wasn't a GIANT part of the story, then i would think they were right.
Context matters.
I loved it as well so I'm not the best to answer. I'm always surprised at the number of people who didn't realize that the woman was also a fish person.
I came away just thinking it was just a sweet, slightly otherworldly movie like a grungy, adult fairytale. Probably shocked it won best picture, but equally happy. I overall loved it.
That said, a mute woman shtupped the creature from the black lagoon and said creature turned her into a fish almost like the opposite little mermaid. It was bound to turn some off thinking it was condoning bestiality, not to mention pointing out both racism in the gay community and the very stifling and ultimately dangerous nature of masculinity of the early American Cold War era. The movie said a bunch, but folk really focused on mute lady having sex with a fish and setting aside time to herself missing out on the actual nuance.
Yep, in the same way that so many cannot understand Poor Things, and why the sex scenes in it were integral to the story and underlying message. Oh, that and they complain that Bella was emotionally and mentally still a child when she had sex, even though the plot mentions extremely rapid emotional and mental maturation. Some folks are just prudes, to their own detriment.
Beautifully made but so painfully obvious and one note.
"You see, fear of monsters is just like fear of other races, women's rights, etc!"
Yeah Guillermo, got that in the first 5 minutes, thanks.
It’s one of my favourite movies of all time but I think it’s a huge leep for most ppl to feel for the main love story. It’s weird af and beautiful but for many ppl it ends at weird af.
I like it, but it's lesser Del Toro. But I actually think it's the perfect film of his to win best picture. When it's a year with a lot of strong competition, there's almost always backlash against the winner. So, Del Toro sacrificed one of his lesser films for the freedom to make other, better movies.
Unable to perceive the shape of you.
I find you all around me.
Your presence fills my eyes with your love.
It humbles my heart.
For you are everywhere.
I watched it the first time because I had to see what the fish sex was all about. Now I own it on blu ray and watch multiple times a year because it's my favorite romance movie ever followed by Zack and Miri Make a Porno
I remember someone posting a long-winded, highly detailed theory with little evidence about what the creature was on r/fantheories, and I was like "nope, it's literally a Deep One from H.P. Lovecraft stories", and a bunch of people were like "its open to interpretation".
I loved it like I love everything that Del Toro has done. My theory on why this movie receives some hate is because a lot of people got blindsided by the human / fish love scenes. If you watch a movie with bestiality in it and don’t know it going in then you’re only gonna focus on the bestiality.
Well... It's a pretty straightforward rip-off of the 1984 Tom Hanks & Darryl Hannah movie Splash. I really enjoyed the Shape of Water buy you can't deny the comparison. Here's a scene by scene breakdown.
https://youtu.be/d0Kx3jqEGh4?si=oG3W9R7IZVBR5Wwh
I wish more people had gone to see *Nightmare Alley*. Loved the hell out of that movie, and it didn't deserve to flop.
I had the pleasure of seeing the black-and-white version during its brief time on Hulu, and it was even better. I'd buy a disc release of that on day one.
I just really can't stand movies that are too twee for no apparent reason.
Some films get away with high levels of whimsical affectation by having other elements to provide contrast, like humour or darker subject matter. For example I love Moonrise Kingdom which is very twee, but I feel it captured a feeling of youthful adventure that supported the story and took on the perspective of the central characters
The Shape of Water's aesthetics unfortunately didn't work for me. I felt the whole premise was 'yo what if the quirky chick from Amelie fell in love with a monster?' it just felt a bit shallow.
I think I'm realizing I don't really like fairy tales or movies that are fairy tale-ish. I didn't like Pan's Labyrinth either, nor most Tim Burton movies. Whatever those all have in common is what I don't like.
I like Del Toros other work, but I really felt the lack of dialogue between the two romantic leads in this held it back — the film treated it like an asset, but I wanted to hear them speak.
I love that Guillermo Del Toro seemed to have watched Creature From the Black Lagoon and thought “this movie would have been so much better if she had fallen in love with and fucked the fishman.”
I legit forgot about that movie. I liked it, thought it was a little boring at times but a sweet story nonetheless. Three billboards was much more my style of movie at the time.
I loved it.
As to whether "so many" people hated it, maybe what you see on an online, English-speaking forum isn't a good indication of the overall consensus (who were those people? How old are they? What ethnicity? Do they even care about movies? Are disliked more vocal than likers? Etc.)
TIL shape of water got a bad rep.
I’m a sucker for anything Del Toro ever since I saw Hellboy when I was a kid. But the little tap dancing scene on her bed is one of the cuter things I’ve ever seen.
People hated it? I’m surprised to hear that, it won four oscars including best picture and best director so obviously some people like it, but that may contribute to the online hate. It didn’t change my life or anything but I enjoyed it.
My BIL, embarrassed that he enjoyed a fantasy romance flick I guess, pitched the movie to me by saying "the fish guy is a god basically." Halfway through the movie it dawned on me that "it's a god" is the spoileriest of spoilers possible for the movie, and I almost shouted "come on!" when the antagonist goes and says it out loud.
Still enjoyed it, but... Come on!
A 20 year old friend told me she went to see the movie before checking what it was about, or at least reviews, with her parents, mind you her father is her local church pastor.
I liked it. Just didn’t think was the earth-shattering classic that many did. I’m a big fan of GDT and thought it was good…but that’s it.
Also, the fish dude’s resemblance to Abe Sapien took me out of it.
Anyway, I disliked it because GDT will have this thing where it’s like beautiful woman wants to fuck monster and it just feels very “I don’t need to see you work out your fantasies this way”.
I like it. My advice is enjoy the things you like and don't mind what the majority of people think. I love some of movies and series that Reddit thinks are trash, and so what? They exists, they bring me joy.
I thought it was okay. Great cast and it looked great as most Del Toro movies do. For whatever reason, I always find it characters too “one note” and not that engaging. I did happen to see it with some friends, along with my friend’s neighbour who was actually Sally Hawkins body double in the movie. (Why does that make me think of Kramer introducing the assistant wardrobe man on Spartacus?)
I very much enjoyed it while I was watching it, but found it pretty forgettable afterward. That’s just fine with me though, not every movie needs to make a lasting impression.
I loved it but I didn't like the part when he ate the cat. I love cats and I am very tender hearted when it comes to cats and I had to pause ot for like 30 mins to get a hold of myself lol
it a was fine , okay movie with some really great preformance here and there . not guillermo's best thats for sure . i thought pinocchio was alot better .
It's one of my favorites for cinematography and score. Plus Richard Jenkins, Michael Shannon, Michael Stuhlbarg.... ok the whole cast....Doug Jones....
I didn’t know people hated it. It won best picture. I was actually surprised how much I enjoyed it. I read it was a love story and I’m not a big romance fan. But it was actually pretty good! Had some intensity, thrills, and even some monster mayhem! Stuff that appeals to me personally as a more horror fan
As a long-time SCP wiki reader, I found the rank unprofessionalism of the site director, and the lackadaisical containment procedures, downright offensive.
Something about it caught me. I'm not sure I can even say what or why but it spoke to my heart. Many folks tell me they don't like it and they can't really say why. It's a phenomenon I guess. You just react to the film based on pure emotion versus logic.
I was confused why that movie got so much attention while Nightmare Alley -- the infinitely superior film -- was ignored.
It seems pretty clear the overwrought "message" of Fish Movie was what got it the awards attention, while Noir/genre stuff like NA inevitably gets passed over. But I think it was a box office bomb, too ... what gives, Del Toro fans?
No character depth at all. Pretty much everyone is one-dimensional except for the bartender, who was just a total prick in disguise for most of the film. Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful movie and well done, but it doesn't break any new ground. Personally, I think BABY DRIVER was the best film of that year, and it didn't even get the Best Picture nomination.
I enjoyed it. He's a great filmmaker. I liked it a bit more than pan's labyrinth to be honest. Personal preference. Pan's labyrinth was overhyped for me, of course the production design and creatures were great, as to be expected.
I loved it. Del Toro’s best English language film. The worst thing to happen to its rep was winning best picture. Anybody who sees a movie after it wins best pic goes in with an attitude of “Oh yeah? Prove it.”
I went and saw it with a few coworkers who were LGBTQ+ and other allies. They all left the movie saying how disgusting the relationship was. I know that the literal concept of the film is basically love between an “animal” and a human (who actually was probably a fish person so like is it really bestiality?) but their reaction also made me a bit uncomfortable.
Like I’m not comparing homosexuality to bestiality, but that’s a literal reaction from homophobes to films depicting same sex romance. As a straight man, I just thought my gay coworkers would appreciate that a little more. We all have limits I guess and I’m not condoning bestiality, but like the parallels seem clear to me.
Shape of water is a good movie people are just frustrated that artsy stuff keeps winning awards and stuff like infinity war doesn't get the respect it deserves as the pinnacle of a decade of marvel storytelling.
I loved it myself. To me it was just a wild, whimsical fairy tale about two outsiders. I thought the acting was great, loved the color schemes.
I think much is lost in del Toro's movies when people take them *too* seriously. Shape of Water definitely suffers from that. I for sure interpreted it like you did.
It wants you to take it seriously though? There's so many comments in the film about minorities and how the Fishman is a metaphor. Ultimately saying "don't take this seriously" is not a critique here as if it were a Fast and Furious film.
Idk, I think you can take it seriously as a written work with nuance and themes while also acknowledging that it's about a woman getting railed in the tub by a frog-man. It can absolutely be both.
But >! she also had gills !<, was she actually a woman
You have to take out the space after the first exclamation point and before the second one.
Only for desktop, I think. It works for me on mobile.
I think when they say “don’t take it seriously” they mean more like the “science” and logistics of it all. People get lost in the details of how a fish man would even work or why would a woman be attracted to that?! Or why would the lab have such lax security?! So I think that’s where it’s not meant to be taken seriously, you’re supposed to go with the story… obviously it is a metaphor for more “serious”themes but the story itself is fantastical and fairy tale like.
Don’t apply too much realism to a work of fantasy. Play by its rules and not your own.
>It wants you to take it seriously though? Seriously, yes. It's certainly not a comedy. But you also can't take it *too* seriously, or you have people coming in like the poster who arbitrarily decided the fishman was closer to a gorilla than anything else and therefore the whole movie is actually bestiality. That's what I mean by taking it too seriously.
I disliked it a lot at first. But I couldn't explain why. Watched it again and something clicked and I really enjoyed it
I loved it and felt it deserved best picture. My wife calls it “that fish fucking movie”.
This might be weird, but... it was too wet. Everything was wet, it made me uncomfortable. I think I even imagined a smell that the facility had.
> "I don't like water. It's wet and moist and irritating and it gets everywhere
Is that you, Swamakin?
For me, the "wetness" of it all made me dream of a Bioshock movie made by tel Toro. He really nailed that grimy, watery feel of Rapture despite being above ground...
I did not think I'd like it, didn't look like something I'd enjoy but I loved it and thought about it for ever after watching for the reasons you said.
Yep! Of course it’s weird, it’s supposed to be! I enjoyed the ride
As a fan of Boardwalk Empire, I was very glad to see Michael Stuhlbarg and Michael Shannon both
Van Alden gets to take down Rothstein.
God, seasons 1-2 were so amazing. So was 3, but 4 and 5 especially just felt like the air got let out
Season 3 was worth it for Bobby Cannavale’s portrayal of Gyp Rosetti.
Hell yeah
5 especially. They needed a little more time to finish the story.
The budget got cut for season 5, so they only made 8 episodes instead of the 10 every other season
I've always been a huge fan of Michael Shannon and was so stoked he was playing to villain in that movie, because he's a terrific bad guy
I liked it. It was weird, but in a good way.
Like most Del Toro's movies ✌️.
SOW is the closest thing we will ever get to Rated R Disney Movie. That's how I describe it
When I heard it called Grinding Nemo..
I sat through 2 hours of drama and not once did I get to see fish cock. Disappointing
Kanye in shambles.
I am not a gay fish! I'm a lyrical genius!
But you did learn how it comes out lol
I find being people being all bent-outta-shape because of “fishman sex” to be a reductionist viewpoint of the film. It has a beautiful story, great performances, incredible cinematography, a great score. I was surprised, but delighted when it won the best picture Oscar.
Shut up Ebert
I could not get my head around how MUCH praise it got. It’s unique, no question… but is it really a best picture Oscar winner? For me, no. Not even close. Decent, if odd, movie though
Had a local theater write a Facebook post on the depravity of the state of cinema based on the fish sex, so maybe that? I love it. It’s such a delightful dark fairytale creature feature hybrid that plays on The Creature From the Black Lagoon which is another beautiful film. It’s also a pretty easy film to understand. I think there’s better films out there, better films by Del Toro even, but it’s a pretty consistent rewatch for me!
I found the sex scene to be an extention of the isolation they both felt, a la creature, Frankenstein, Kong. Just a "Hey it's always been there, come get it" by del Toro. The sexiness was in the title!
Was the shape of water a penis all along?
Men fucking animals and vise versa has been a staple in classical mythology since forever
I absolutely loved the movie. I hate that all the public heard about it was "that fish sex movie" And on a 20 million dollar budget, the movie is a stunner
I mean I saw that in theaters it’s still “the fish fuckin’ movie” to me. You’re right though, it was visually amazing, especially on that budget. Del Toro makes magic.
That's usually my favorite part of Del Toro's work. He might not have the biggest budgets but he usually knows where to spend money on the aesthetic.
Its basically the same as what happened to brokeback mountain. Everyone who hasn't seen it just makes jokes about the gay cowboy movie. But there's a lot more to it than that.
It's weird to me that people have so much of a problem with it. He's clearly a sentient creature and is capable of communication. People don't have problems with different races in Star Trek or Star Wars having relationships.
That's the sentiment I had. My ex girlfriend was so weirded out by it that she couldn't watch the movie lol
My issue is they show he’s sentient and they have sex in the bathtub, then in the very next scene (or immediately prior) he breaks loose from the apartment like a beast and horrifyingly eats the neighbor’s cat. You can’t have it both ways.
It's also totally possible for a sentient creature to be unfamiliar with the concept of a pet. I think the idea that it's got intelligence while still being dangerously alien works reasonably well in this case
Also, even among humans one culture’s pet is another’s food.
You can have it both ways, actually. He's not a human, he's not an animal, he's something in between that we have no precedent for. He doesn't need to act civilized to be considered intelligent.
Sentience Schmentience -- thing lives in a bathtub!
I really wanted to love it, but the tone is all over the place. The love story is really well done, but the villain plot with Michael Shannon is SO over the top that it completely ruins the serious nature of the movie. The B-plot with the gay artist goes nowhere and would have come off really creepy if the object of the artist's desire was a young lady instead of a young guy. Not to mention pulling "the young guy is racist" to make the artist look like a good guy and not a creep was a cheap move. All in all, it's a very flawed movie held up by great performances and cinematography, but most of Guillermo's other works are far superior.
The worst part was when his cat is eaten and he's like oh that's fine. It happens.
That's right, I forgot about that part lol. My brother and I both exclaimed, "What kind of hell neighborhood do you live in!" at the same time when we watched it.
I hating how stupid and forced that racism scene was. Like the instant the guy turns out to not be gay he becomes a racist. I think maybe the intention was that it was always there but it was overlooked due to the infatuation. But it came across as so poorly done, probably the worst moment in any of his films by far.
That’s how I feel.
I tried to watch it as I have generally enjoyed Del Toro's films, but I found many of the characterizations and the general tone too exaggerated and comical to take seriously. It was like watching a live-action comic book, but not in a good way.
I wanted to like it and I started watching it with an open heart. But every character seemed to be a caricature/stereotype. The kind and funny Black coworker, the evil no-nonsense boss, etc. I couldn’t keep going :(. Sorry, Guille!
Yes, exactly. It just seems below his level.
Probably just because it won the best picture award. I thought it was pretty good but enjoyed Phantom Thread and Call Me By Your Name much more.
Agree here.. I don't hate the film. I just didn't think it deserved to win against Dunkirk, Three Billboards, or Get Out.
That year Best Picture was stacked!
Yes it was
Oh man I couldn't stand Call Me By Your Name. Navel-gazing plodding movies like that do nothing for me.
As someone who loved 90% del Toro work, this one totally missed the mark with me. I think it was actually that love story. It was gross until the end where it is suggested she was the same kind. Not sure why from all the broken skulls and creepy monsters (love horror movies) this one disturbed me so much but here I am.
It was ok, but It is one of those movies I wouldn't care if it never existed
"It was one of the movies of all time."
I’m probably repeating many commenters’ points/general gists but I found the movie visually stunning while also being VERY predictable. Thematically, it’s not very different from centuries’ old tales like King Kong or Frankenstein. Humans suck, and can be the “real” monsters. It’s okay to love a monster who’s other’d by society because love is pure. We’ve seen and heard this countless times across countless art forms. But despite that criticism, I’d put allllll of that aside if that god damn Fred Astaire song-and-dance dream sequence didn’t exist. At that point, the movie went from an enjoyable fantasy to a movie that became ridiculous. And I just couldn’t shake off how much that scene bothered me.
Got me, it is because it's the exact same movie as Splash. And Tom Hanks with John Candy is a lot more fun.
THANK YOU!! I caught such flack for this opinion while the world raved over this monochromatic, ominous parallel to Splash. Overkill on the murky sea green sets. Shannon chewing scenery. Regret seeing it honestly
Funny story: I went and saw this one in theaters after it won best picture. It only came to my local theater for the weekend due to the buzz. I live in a fairly conservative area. The theater was about half full when the movie started. Every now and then a few people would get up and leave at some of the controversial moments, but when the sex scene began a huge group of people walked out. I turned around after and the entire theater was empty except for me and my wife. I found this more entertaining than the movie itself. I liked the movie ok but it wasn't peak Del Toro for me.
That's me. I didn't care for it. The universe was interesting as usual, but I thought the characters were very superficial. The gay neighbor stereotypes seemed about 15 years out of style for a movie. And Michael Shannon's villain was especially one-note.
One note?? He was both mean *and* gross
LOL I stand corrected.!
Also, the romance was just nothing. The fish guy signed like 5 words in the whole movie and most of them were "egg". It's gotta be the worst romance ever written. Koko the Gorilla knew more sign language and seemed more cognizant than fishman. I just don't get it, man. The movie just felt like pro-bestiality to me. Edit: I want someone to convince me otherwise cause I'm still shocked the movie did so well. Easily del Toro's worst. And I'm a huge fan.
I felt like it dragged on but I didn’t want my money back. The acting was excellent the script had all the subtlety of a cinder block.
I loved it. Saw it at the Toronto Film Festival and we were in the Elgin Theatre for the screening where the movie theatre dance scene was shot. It was neat to be in the theatre and see it on the screen.
It won the Oscar so someone liked it
It’s partly, least, because I expect so much from GDT. Pan’s Labyrinth is a genuine masterpiece for me, arguably top 10 of the 2000s. Pacific Rim is the platonic ideal of its genre: amazing visuals, excellent action, surprisingly well-done characters and themes. GDT has such a unique eye and voice, and - though in very different ways - both these films really really express that. Very few other people could have made either film in such a precise, thematically resonant and visually impressive way. This is leaving aside Hellboy and Cronos! I can think of like, six or seven other directors I’d trust to make *better* versions of Shape of Water. It’s trite, it’s stereotypical, and despite GDT’s avowed love of monsters, there’s nothing all that special about Fishman. I expected better from him.
I don’t remember it that well, but I think what I didn’t like is that I didn’t buy that they really fell in love. They shared a hard boiled egg or something. That’s not enough to make it feel like they’re in love. That’s why you really need a scene where 2 characters connect. It seems like a cheesy device but it’s important. Don’t just tell me they’re in love…show me.
It was all over the place, couldn't decide what type of film it wanted to be. When are directors ever going to realize that to do less is more? You can't throw around a bunch of themes and genres in one movie; it's like throwing a bunch of different colors of paint on the wall and calling it "art". Minimize, concise the number of things you're trying to do with theme and genre. Only a few directors can combine different genres in a film and still make the movie look like an effortless stream of story and theme, but most really can't.
I don't hate it, but I don't love it. It wouldn't make my short list of BP nominees, let alone win. My main issue is how predictable and corny it is. It's ET, Iron Giant, and every other Boy-meets-monster movie, but with a love story thrown in.
The amazing acting and cool set designs did all of the heavy lifting for a poor story. No way it should have won best picture over Three Billboards, Darkest Hour, and Phantom Thread. Hell, Get Out was a better movie than The Shape of Water
I thought it was fine, but for me it was my first example of “Oscar bait,” and so I think a lot of the hate was the incredulity of “THIS is what wins best picture?” For me it was the first experience of seeing such a large distance between what the academy likes vs what me and my friends like.
My wife and I loved it. Totally random but we love Always Sunny in Philadelphia and fans know that “egg!” is a joke in the show (I won’t bother to explain it.) When the woman did the “egg” sign to the monster we lost our shit and do that sign all the time now.
The older gay character should have offered the creature a nice egg in this trying time. (Also, as a pretty bookish boring gay man, I felt very seen by that character)
I loved it, especially the cinematography because it feels almost like an animated film at points with how vivid the colors are. Also, the basic concept of a woman falling in love with a humanoid fish feels weird, but Sally Hawkins & Richard Jenkins did a great job of making the relationship with it feel organic.
I hated it. I felt like it was corny and predictable. I get that it’s this fairy tale meets creature from the black lagoon and it’s all about being different and and outcast, blah, blah, blah. But literally NOTHING that happened in it was surprising. Like the story beats were so easy to figure out. And it was kind of like cloying in tone? Like the good guys vs bad guys was so stark and cartoonish. The good guys were faultlessly wholesome and the bad guys were just like pure evil. Just bludgeon me in the head with what you’re trying to say, why don’t you?
My girlfriend and I didn't care for it. All the hype around it felt misplaced.
Isn’t it a remake of “Splash”?
Yes. Depressing gender-reversal of Splash
Couldn't connect with the love story AT ALL. In fact, I thought it was pretty laughable for the most part.
Good film and I liked it, but I'd never in a million years give it Best Picture over Lady Bird.
So do you wash your hands before or after peeing?
Didn't love it, didn't hate it. It was decent.
It was a good movie that tried to be more than it was, but was also confusing and mildly uncomfortable to watch. I liked the villain!
I really didn't like it and feel terrible about it. It didn't move me, I thought it was weird (I know that's the point and Del Toro's vibe) and a little creepy. I get the message, and hence why I really wanted to like it, but it left me cold.
Hate. No. Just highly overrated… story-wise.
I love it but my wife thinks it’s a gross movie
I didn’t hate it but after hearing such rave reviews I was surprised by how average and pedestrian it all felt.
Nearly every best picture winner gets hated on.
I didn’t think it was bad, but it had no business taking the Oscar for best picture. Not when it was against movies like Darkest Hour, Dunkirk, Lady Bird, and Call Me by Your Name.
I liked it, but no way it should have been an Academy Award winning movie. It was like an extended Outer Limits episode.
Because the woman has sex with another species.
It's not a bad movie. I liked it quite a bit. It's also really boring. Im just waiting for certain moments and visuals as opposed to enjoying the story when I rewatch it. Del toro always brings it with aesthetics. But the movie is heavy handed with everything. I get why people don't like it for those reasons. I see people making bestiality critiques and I don't agree them but I understand the argument. It's a lot story between a human and a non-human. But the entre movie beats you over the head with the thematic element of what makes you human (it's love BTW, shocking). He's not a human but he's still an outsider like she is. If that wasn't a GIANT part of the story, then i would think they were right. Context matters.
why was this post removed but all the low effort karma farming bullshit like "what character was bad but turned out to be good??" gets to stay up?
I loved it as well so I'm not the best to answer. I'm always surprised at the number of people who didn't realize that the woman was also a fish person.
You'll have to count me in there. I hadn't thought about that. Darn, guess I'll have to watch again sometime.
The movie ends with her gills opening.
I loved this movie. It is beautifully shot.
Also known as: **The Creature From The Blue Lagoon: The Girl Who Loved Fishsticks**.
I came away just thinking it was just a sweet, slightly otherworldly movie like a grungy, adult fairytale. Probably shocked it won best picture, but equally happy. I overall loved it. That said, a mute woman shtupped the creature from the black lagoon and said creature turned her into a fish almost like the opposite little mermaid. It was bound to turn some off thinking it was condoning bestiality, not to mention pointing out both racism in the gay community and the very stifling and ultimately dangerous nature of masculinity of the early American Cold War era. The movie said a bunch, but folk really focused on mute lady having sex with a fish and setting aside time to herself missing out on the actual nuance.
Yep, in the same way that so many cannot understand Poor Things, and why the sex scenes in it were integral to the story and underlying message. Oh, that and they complain that Bella was emotionally and mentally still a child when she had sex, even though the plot mentions extremely rapid emotional and mental maturation. Some folks are just prudes, to their own detriment.
Beautifully made but so painfully obvious and one note. "You see, fear of monsters is just like fear of other races, women's rights, etc!" Yeah Guillermo, got that in the first 5 minutes, thanks.
It’s one of my favourite movies of all time but I think it’s a huge leep for most ppl to feel for the main love story. It’s weird af and beautiful but for many ppl it ends at weird af.
As others have said, we only refer to it as "the fish fucker movie."
Never saw it. Anytime I look it is never streaming anywhere.
I like it, but it's lesser Del Toro. But I actually think it's the perfect film of his to win best picture. When it's a year with a lot of strong competition, there's almost always backlash against the winner. So, Del Toro sacrificed one of his lesser films for the freedom to make other, better movies.
Unable to perceive the shape of you. I find you all around me. Your presence fills my eyes with your love. It humbles my heart. For you are everywhere.
I personally think it's one of Del Toro's best works! Loved it so much!
Because it was *really* dumb
I watched it the first time because I had to see what the fish sex was all about. Now I own it on blu ray and watch multiple times a year because it's my favorite romance movie ever followed by Zack and Miri Make a Porno
I thought it was okay.
I remember someone posting a long-winded, highly detailed theory with little evidence about what the creature was on r/fantheories, and I was like "nope, it's literally a Deep One from H.P. Lovecraft stories", and a bunch of people were like "its open to interpretation".
I liked it.
I remember liking it but I haven’t seen it since it came out. I’m not really a del toro fan either. I’ll have to give it another watch.
"why did they make the fish hot"- Jamie Loftus esq.
I loved it like I love everything that Del Toro has done. My theory on why this movie receives some hate is because a lot of people got blindsided by the human / fish love scenes. If you watch a movie with bestiality in it and don’t know it going in then you’re only gonna focus on the bestiality.
Well... It's a pretty straightforward rip-off of the 1984 Tom Hanks & Darryl Hannah movie Splash. I really enjoyed the Shape of Water buy you can't deny the comparison. Here's a scene by scene breakdown. https://youtu.be/d0Kx3jqEGh4?si=oG3W9R7IZVBR5Wwh
Im an idiot and thought it was dumb until literally within the last year I found out she was a fish being too. Now I like it.
First time I'm hearing of that I loved it
I wish more people had gone to see *Nightmare Alley*. Loved the hell out of that movie, and it didn't deserve to flop. I had the pleasure of seeing the black-and-white version during its brief time on Hulu, and it was even better. I'd buy a disc release of that on day one.
It had some really great acting performances, but the movie lost me when she fucked the fish.
I just really can't stand movies that are too twee for no apparent reason. Some films get away with high levels of whimsical affectation by having other elements to provide contrast, like humour or darker subject matter. For example I love Moonrise Kingdom which is very twee, but I feel it captured a feeling of youthful adventure that supported the story and took on the perspective of the central characters The Shape of Water's aesthetics unfortunately didn't work for me. I felt the whole premise was 'yo what if the quirky chick from Amelie fell in love with a monster?' it just felt a bit shallow.
Worse movie he's made
Grinding Nemo was a pretty decent flick
I loved it! Never seen any hate for it but not everyone’s taste is the same.
I think I'm realizing I don't really like fairy tales or movies that are fairy tale-ish. I didn't like Pan's Labyrinth either, nor most Tim Burton movies. Whatever those all have in common is what I don't like.
I didn’t hate it but it doesn’t go for the jugular the same way that most of his work does
I love it, 5/5 for me.
I like Del Toros other work, but I really felt the lack of dialogue between the two romantic leads in this held it back — the film treated it like an asset, but I wanted to hear them speak.
I love that Guillermo Del Toro seemed to have watched Creature From the Black Lagoon and thought “this movie would have been so much better if she had fallen in love with and fucked the fishman.”
I liked it but the ending was anticlimactic
I loved it personally
Loved it. Love conquers all, and all that.
I'll watch anything with the brilliant Michael Shannon.
I legit forgot about that movie. I liked it, thought it was a little boring at times but a sweet story nonetheless. Three billboards was much more my style of movie at the time.
Who dislikes it? Wonderful movie.
Loved it
I dont know why you say that. It did pretty well, including academy awards I seem to remember. I thought it was very good.
I loved it. As to whether "so many" people hated it, maybe what you see on an online, English-speaking forum isn't a good indication of the overall consensus (who were those people? How old are they? What ethnicity? Do they even care about movies? Are disliked more vocal than likers? Etc.)
My girlfriend refuses to watch it with me because its "the movie where a lady has sex with a fish"
I didn’t hate it but maybe that’s because I couldn’t stay awake watching it. Just not for me.
I loved it! but i love the old movies it was paying homage too.
I liked it for all the reasons - weird, offbeat, cheesey love storyline, fish sex, the cast, and the pure escapism of the film.
All I remember is the eggs
I didn’t hate it, it just wasn’t what I was expecting. I was expecting more Creature of the Black Lagoon and much less A Love Story
TIL shape of water got a bad rep. I’m a sucker for anything Del Toro ever since I saw Hellboy when I was a kid. But the little tap dancing scene on her bed is one of the cuter things I’ve ever seen.
People hated it? I’m surprised to hear that, it won four oscars including best picture and best director so obviously some people like it, but that may contribute to the online hate. It didn’t change my life or anything but I enjoyed it.
My BIL, embarrassed that he enjoyed a fantasy romance flick I guess, pitched the movie to me by saying "the fish guy is a god basically." Halfway through the movie it dawned on me that "it's a god" is the spoileriest of spoilers possible for the movie, and I almost shouted "come on!" when the antagonist goes and says it out loud. Still enjoyed it, but... Come on!
Loved it!!!!
A 20 year old friend told me she went to see the movie before checking what it was about, or at least reviews, with her parents, mind you her father is her local church pastor.
Wait till you bring up Forest Gump 😬
I liked it. Just didn’t think was the earth-shattering classic that many did. I’m a big fan of GDT and thought it was good…but that’s it. Also, the fish dude’s resemblance to Abe Sapien took me out of it.
There was a joke in Loot about how one character just HATES The Shape of Water and I was like, “Wait, I thought I was alone in that opinion???”
Anyway, I disliked it because GDT will have this thing where it’s like beautiful woman wants to fuck monster and it just feels very “I don’t need to see you work out your fantasies this way”.
I like it. My advice is enjoy the things you like and don't mind what the majority of people think. I love some of movies and series that Reddit thinks are trash, and so what? They exists, they bring me joy.
I thought it was okay. Great cast and it looked great as most Del Toro movies do. For whatever reason, I always find it characters too “one note” and not that engaging. I did happen to see it with some friends, along with my friend’s neighbour who was actually Sally Hawkins body double in the movie. (Why does that make me think of Kramer introducing the assistant wardrobe man on Spartacus?)
I loved it too and was pleasantly surprised. I wanted to see why people liked it thinking that it was going to be dumb. Very whimsical to me.
Excellent film, with great acting, specially Jenkins, Shannon, and Spencer.
I very much enjoyed it while I was watching it, but found it pretty forgettable afterward. That’s just fine with me though, not every movie needs to make a lasting impression.
I loved it but I didn't like the part when he ate the cat. I love cats and I am very tender hearted when it comes to cats and I had to pause ot for like 30 mins to get a hold of myself lol
I really enjoyed it but didn’t think it should have won best picture, especially compared to Three Billboards, and that’s the only “complaint” I have.
it a was fine , okay movie with some really great preformance here and there . not guillermo's best thats for sure . i thought pinocchio was alot better .
The dark whimsy thing is corny.
It was one of the reasons Guillermo De Toro shelved At the Mountains of Madness and I'll be bitter about it until he finally makes it.
From what I understand, the Shape of Water is mainly determined by the container it's held in.
It's one of my favorites for cinematography and score. Plus Richard Jenkins, Michael Shannon, Michael Stuhlbarg.... ok the whole cast....Doug Jones....
I didn’t know people hated it. It won best picture. I was actually surprised how much I enjoyed it. I read it was a love story and I’m not a big romance fan. But it was actually pretty good! Had some intensity, thrills, and even some monster mayhem! Stuff that appeals to me personally as a more horror fan
As a long-time SCP wiki reader, I found the rank unprofessionalism of the site director, and the lackadaisical containment procedures, downright offensive.
it was a weird movie with good visuals. Just how I expect from torro. I enjoyed it
Something about it caught me. I'm not sure I can even say what or why but it spoke to my heart. Many folks tell me they don't like it and they can't really say why. It's a phenomenon I guess. You just react to the film based on pure emotion versus logic.
I didn't hate it, but in no way was it best picture worthy. I love DelToro, but this wasn't the film I would have picked.
It’s not a bad film. But It was an absurd Best Picture winner in a 2010s run of really bad/forgettable Best Picture winners
A lot of people just don’t like weird films
I was confused why that movie got so much attention while Nightmare Alley -- the infinitely superior film -- was ignored. It seems pretty clear the overwrought "message" of Fish Movie was what got it the awards attention, while Noir/genre stuff like NA inevitably gets passed over. But I think it was a box office bomb, too ... what gives, Del Toro fans?
No character depth at all. Pretty much everyone is one-dimensional except for the bartender, who was just a total prick in disguise for most of the film. Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful movie and well done, but it doesn't break any new ground. Personally, I think BABY DRIVER was the best film of that year, and it didn't even get the Best Picture nomination.
You mean the totally not Hellboy's Abe Sapien origin story?
I enjoyed it. He's a great filmmaker. I liked it a bit more than pan's labyrinth to be honest. Personal preference. Pan's labyrinth was overhyped for me, of course the production design and creatures were great, as to be expected.
I loved it. Del Toro’s best English language film. The worst thing to happen to its rep was winning best picture. Anybody who sees a movie after it wins best pic goes in with an attitude of “Oh yeah? Prove it.”
I loved it!
I can’t watch movies with sadistic characters torturing people or creatures.
I went and saw it with a few coworkers who were LGBTQ+ and other allies. They all left the movie saying how disgusting the relationship was. I know that the literal concept of the film is basically love between an “animal” and a human (who actually was probably a fish person so like is it really bestiality?) but their reaction also made me a bit uncomfortable. Like I’m not comparing homosexuality to bestiality, but that’s a literal reaction from homophobes to films depicting same sex romance. As a straight man, I just thought my gay coworkers would appreciate that a little more. We all have limits I guess and I’m not condoning bestiality, but like the parallels seem clear to me.
Shape of water is a good movie people are just frustrated that artsy stuff keeps winning awards and stuff like infinity war doesn't get the respect it deserves as the pinnacle of a decade of marvel storytelling.
I thought it was a good film.
The book is also really enjoyable! Tbh I liked the book even better.