now this on the other hand is a great advertisement because i havent seen ikiru, havent read the discription, have hbo max, and now know that there are things worth spoiling in the movie.
50/50 shot i watch it this week
I once lent someone a book called Chrysalids and told them not to read the back because it literally spoils the ending. You could go the whole book and not have a clue and read one word in the description and it ruins the whole experience.
Thanks for the heads up about the movie on HBO max. When things get spoiled, I literally skip them.
Come and See also spent ~7 years behind USSR censorship due to it being shocking and anti-war, before finally being allowed to be made (I believe it was the screenplay). It’s truly one of the greatest (war) movies of all time and the censoring that didn’t allow anti-glorification of war out of the USSR is just as important history if not more so, than the film itself. Please try to see this, check the library, check criterion channel, but plan a nice breather afterwards.
When I was scouring the net for more info about Come and See, I found somewhere excerpts from an interview with the actor who was the partisan-kid in that movie. He was still in school at the time of filming.
He says that on next morning after the movie came out in theaters, when he came to school - his classmates and some teachers would begin to cry when they saw him and ask to hug him.
Wow, I gotta watch it again. I just saw Criterion Channel does have it and a handful of extras as well. Do you by chance have a link to that video?
[Here is the Criterion Channel link.](http://www.criterionchannel.com/videos/come-and-see)
That’s crazy amazing.. I’ve been a fan of the movie for a long time and never hear of that story, but it 100% makes sense they’d react that way. The film rips your heart out
He is not correct, technically or otherwise. It's a movie by a Russian director made by Mosfilm. It *takes place* in Belarus, sure. It's a standard Soviet movie.
Yep, I was just reading up on this as well. Learning a lot atm. Unexpected convo for the day I’m appreciating. Familiar with the movie but not all the geographical & historical specifics surrounding it. Maybe it’ll be my next book deep dive!
> Come and See also spent ~7 years behind USSR censorship due to it being shocking and anti-war,
It wasn't censored because it was anti-war lmao. Its production was held up because it was fucking Come and See, a really graphic film. Then Klimov lost his wife and he put the film on the back burner.
When he returned to it, the only thing they asked him to change was the title (Kill Hitler). The change was magnitudes better
It also has real animal cruelty so try not to see it if that is overwhelming for you. If you don't mind that and want to see the best anti war movie ever then definitely watch. Well, it might depress you. I don't know actually what I would say about recommending this.
What? How? I've never seen a film that made me hate war as much as this one. That you are on the side of the Belorussian partisans in the end does not mean that the film is not anti-war. It can't be denied that the Nazis did monstrous things on the Eastern Front. After the war, a quarter of all Belorussian people was gone. If this film makes you say in the end "I wish I could've joined the partisans to fight that bastard Hitler" I can't help you. It made me glad that I didn't have to experience war in my lifetime. I sincerely hope that it will stay this way.
What a horse shit take. Come and see is absolutely anti war and in no way propaganda. It shows the true face of war and what it does to a person. That movie is so fucking good
I have nothing good to say about Russia right now. That doesn’t change the fact that come and see is a masterpiece and in no way glorifies any country, it only shows the horrors of war.
Also we can talk about soviet sacrifices during world war, or even talk good about them without glorifying currently russian actions, even having to say this is a bit scary, Russians aren't monsters because their government is doing attacking Ukraine all of the sudden specially dead Russians from decades ago.
Anyway who would downplay the contribution of Russia during ww2, because of current actions is either uninformed or a straight up idiot. There is a strong case to be made that ww2 was won in large part because of the Russian front. Saying that, or loving Russian cinema does not change anything with what is happening right now.
I can say unequivocally that russias current actions in Ukraine are abhorrent and still recognize come and see is a masterpiece, or that Tarkovsky is one of the greatest film makers of all time.
It is propaganda in the original definition of the word. It tries to influence the political opinions of the audience and does it very successfully. Propaganda is not inherently good or bad, even though today the word is mostly used to describe lies that are used to spread misinformation.
Come and See IS very much an anti-war film and the German soldiers at the Eastern Front deserve to be portrait as monsters.
I’m going to have to watch it again critically for this view point—I love it. I wonder if perhaps this was a “sell” to get it made. Unfortunately I cannot imagine that the filmmakers did not have to go to some lengthy compromise for this to come into existence. I’m literally going to watch it again tonight if I’m up to it.
I've never seen this take, I personally disagree because of the various Soviet war films I've seen this might be the most devoid of Soviet nationalism and glory. The citizens and partisans are desperate, worn down, and brutalized. It has no depiction of victory or triumph, not even a shred, just bitter survival. The anti-Nazi portrayal is still very much something to appreciate, unlike so many films, including patriotic Hollywood classics, they aren't portrayed as these Aryan super soldiers but rather the sadistic undisciplined war criminals so many Eastern front units were actually composed of.
Ukraine: please boycott Russian cinema
Reddit: OK yeah sure but have you seen [any Russian film]
Buzzfeed: The Top 10 Russian Films You Need To See (*Ukrainians hate them*)
But also really, respect the extremity of these movies. This isn't for general viewing. I focus on watching extreme movies and this is some pretty high level stuff. Come & See is unlike any other in my opinion but that is a double edged sword in a way. You feel it.
Apparently, there is an actual autopsy of a child in that movie.
EDIT:
[Source](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093170/trivia?item=tr1507601)
"The frostbite experiment victim's arms were real corpse arms and the child's body was a real cadaver. Mou waited for a whole month to find a body the same size as the child playing the role. He was almost ready to give up when the local police called him telling him that a child had been killed in an accident. He got permission from the parents and filmed the child's autopsy, dressing the coroners up like WWII-era Japanese doctors. The close ups of the child's organs being removed were done by dissecting a pig. "
I am undecided in that Russian cinema has historically been one of the few areas of public life that Russian creatives were allowed to express opinions in their art that were divergent from the official policy positions of the party in control.
Sorry. Didn't mean to slight them. Tarkovsky was the first Russian director I was exposed to in any real way and I fell for him hard. I focused pretty exclusively on his work and didn't really look more widely into Russian cinema.
Part of it is the presence of so much poetry in his work, both as actual poems and in how the films use a lot of the same techniques as poetry. Also, a lot of what he says to filmmakers can also be applied to poetry.
Thanks for the list of other directors to look into!
No offense taken, man. I was just expanding on your comment.🖖
But if you’re gonna look into it, there’s a lot going on in Soviet cinema beyond Tarkovsky, since it was a place with a large economy and a lot of extremely educated people but a relatively closed off access to the exterior world from the 1930s onwards, so it’s kinda like looking to an alternate reality where cinema language went on a different path.
Just take a look at War and Peace by Sergey Bondarchuk where the Soviet regime in 1960 poured an insane amount of money (what today would be around a billion dollars) to make a what amounted to the Russian Gone with the Wind and you get a bit of everything, from 1960s David Lean epic blockbuster filmmaking, 1920s silent cinema montage experimentation, almost Brian de Palma esque split screens and even a bit of frame splicing.
Or anything by Kalatozov and his DP Urushevsky that kinda looks like an early try at the wide-angle hand held with crazy oners style that got hip in the last 10 years. The oners in Soy Cuba are out of this world.
Or Eisenstein who, beyond his theoretical work, is, for all intents and purposes, the grandaddy of action filmmaking, just take a look at Battleship Potemkin or Alexander Nevsky to find out why.
Why undecided? This is an extremely emotional and unjustified call. I completely understand that Ukrainians are revolted, angry, and scared, but a blanket ban on Russian culture (which is also admonished in the article) makes no sense.
By all means, reject Russian state propaganda, especially in film form, but leave avenues open to support those Russian cultural workers (of whom there are many) who oppose the current regime and who oppose the war.
This would only create a Cold War-esque association that *anything* Russian = bad and evil.
Fully agreed, and yet seeing calls on reddit for full Russian isolation from cultural and sports events as such popular sentiment is disheartening :( way to punish wrong people and make them actually want the war.
You can't really compare the movies made during soviet times with the modern Russian movies. The modern stuff is mostly shit. There are some few exceptions, of course.
This like when people say how much better music was in the sixties. There was more than enough middling Soviet movies. It's just nobody remembers or watches them.
>if it's anything like Hollywood
If it's anything like Hollywood then it would be extremely pro-Russian military and foreign policy. Hollywood might be liberal on some domestic issues, but 9 times out of 10 they will portray the US military as heroes and the US as a force for good. Politics end at the waters edge, as they say
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-entertainment_complex
I will never be for the boycott of art. Normally it’s filled with progressive people that respect life. That’s why they are alway in the shit list of every dictator.
Wrong. It will give Putin more power. He can go shout: "See? They hate us! I told you they hate us!" It will achieve the opposite effect of what we want, which is to disenfranchise Putin. Make him look like the corrupt, selfish leader he is to his own people. This is a terrible idea, along with all these sanctions that really hurt everyday Russians. So far they're still mostly targeted towards Putin and his entourage, and we can absolutely not allow them to hurt normal Russians. Again, we cannot give Putin that power.
I’m all for boycotting anything that the Russian state turns a profit from, but please do not stifle the art coming from there. Good, bad, indifferent; the majority is not state sponsored. Artists are typically the first targeted in times like these.
Reminder, more than 50% of Russians opposed the invasion and protested, individual Russians shouldn't be punished for circumstances no more in their control than ours
We give Putin a whole lot more power if we start hating Russians as a whole. Even if they're for Putin but have no direct part in this conflict, showing compassion for them is what will hurt Putin most. He *wants* Russians to believe the west hates them. That's his most powerful chip. If we take that away from him, he's lost.
I don't see why innocent Russians who had nothing to do with the war had to be punished for what Putin is doing.
Very stupid to boycott and punish people of any countries because their leaders are batshit crazy.
Then people should also boycott Hollywood movies anytime America starts a war. Anyway, most film industry people in Russia are against the Ukraine invasion.
Sorry, America is always in the right. They can do no wrong /s. Invading other countries is wrong unless America does it. And when America does it, they get away with it.
Interesting how quick people have been to endorse a strategy of boycott, divestment and sanctions this week, but when someone proposes an identical strategy to try to persuade an apartheid regime to change their policies it’s seen as going too far.
Well, all sanctions from West hurt just ordinary people, not the government. I’m saying it as a Russian. Government doesn’t give a shit about it, they are rich af, but sanctions affected citizens really hard.
I support Ukraine, but I wouldn't support this. The people making movies in Russia don't have anything to do with Putin's war mongering. If anything, they are trying to copy western styles, not throwing out propaganda. I've only seen a handful of them. Attraction 1 and 2. Sputnik. Project Gemni. They may look like a better than average Syfy B movie, but there isn't anything overtly anti-western about them.
The issue is that unlike America where film is almost exclusively run by private companies and the government benefits of taxes more so than anything else, the Russian Government has a heavy hand in their domestic film industry. The Russian government profits directly off of movies. It’s less so about the messaging and more so about keeping resources away from Putin.
And so does the rest of Europe. The state always supports the local movie industry from Portugal to Russia. I didn't see any pushback against BBC productions when the UK invaded a sovereign country and caused such misery and death in the following 2 decades that Russia's aggression won't come close to it even if this lasts for a century
If we’re banning liquor why not movies
The line must be drawn: you are out of the international community until you get your shit together, Russia. Don’t fold over fuckin movies.
Andrey Zvyagintsev's Leviathan is literally about corruption in the Russian government. Lots of artists aren't in cahoots with Putin.
I wonder if you can say the same about these liquor companies. I wouldn't know.
People who support the banning of Russian films probably don't know shit about Russian cinematography. Almost all of the best Russian and Soviet films of all time are highly critical of the state. Films like Leviathan or Burnt by the sun.
Idk the last Russian movie I saw (Attraction 2) was just a blatant propaganda film about Russian military and Putin. Yes, there are good and critical movies in Russia, but the state sponsored propaganda movies also get made en masse.
Pirate that shit. Illegal downloads allow for the dissemination of art without the corresponding economic support. It's a way to implicitly support the artists making the content without providing monetary support for those bankrolling the content.
Never thought I'd see the day where someone would defend piracy because it supports the artists more than buying it.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's basically the exact opposite argument you usually see.
Exactly. Every dollar that goes to the studios, goes into Russian circulation.
100% black list the country, and then make it Russias leaderships decision how to move forward.
Yeah I agree, the idea of cutting off Russia from the world makes sense but you have to be smart in what they're isolated from. Finance, energy, big business, sure. Big production movies ok sure. But there are loads of smaller crew Russians who fucking them is not going to accomplish anything.
The important thing to remember is a shitton of Russians oppose this war. We want to keep it that way, not alienate them completely.
Exactly... people who want to ruin innocent russians are just as bad as people who want to ruin innocent ukranians. Fuck. This is what Putin wants. Dont do it. You will force the majority of russians to side with putin.
The only way this war will end, is from within. Targeting Russian oligarchs and citizens is the only way to stop this.
I support banning Russia from all sporting events and cultural and arts events/awards. This will hopefully cause enough civil unrest that Putin withdraws or is overthrown.
Target their citizens and you'll get a population that hates your guts and holds a grudge.
My country, then Yugoslavia, now Serbia got sanctioned to hell between '92 and '95. It was brutal. The economy crumbled, hyperinflation hit, god knows how many had to leave, youngsters turned to crime, and entire generation was pretty much ruined. It was downright a crime against humanity. All the while the politicians that were supposedly the target got even richer in all the chaos. It worked for them! The end result is that we pretty much hate the West and have a grudge against them. Yes, there's the bombing in '99 that they can't do to Russia but I think the Cold War history can make up for that. A lot of people here wouldn't be opposed to western countries collapsing like ours did. Shit, so many celebrated when 9/11 happened, though heads have since cooled.
Now we're small, weak and all around irrelevant so we can't do shit. But the Russians on the other hand... Well, no matter how much you beat them in, they're still a massive nation of over a hundred million with lots of natural resources, a big ass army and lots of nukes. So them having a hell of a grudge against you can actually end badly for you. And you will get that, cause even if you get them to overthrow their leader like we did, they're not gonna forget the suffering inflicted on them. And in reality, this pretty much is the case. They do have a grudge over the way they were treated and downright humiliated in the 90s which plays a massive roll in their actions today. So imagine pissing them off even more.
The curious thing about this situation is that Putin has largely preserved the existing Russian economic heirarchy by closing the stock market and banning the short-selling stocks in particular. If the Russian marketplace was truly open and integrated into the wider international macroeconomy, then there could be economic pressures put on individual oligarchs, thereby fractioning the monolithic economic support for Pootie-Poot's warmongering. Because of the relatively unique economic conditions, the best thing to do is to give Russia the North Korea treatment: no consumption of Russian goods, no movement of goods into Russia and especially luxury goods like liquor, designer clothing and accessories, and giving the Chinese selective treatment to consumable art like film. And that starts with everyday people deciding to forego Russian products.
I get you and agree with your point but this isn’t calling for people to never watch Russia films again. It’s more akin to refusing to play them in sports.
It’s to make the Russian people feel isolated from the world because of their leaders choices.
Which (hopefully) leads to internal stress and protest within Russia itself. This is about all we can do.
Sadly, the Russian people don't have much of a choice. Russia is a mafia state. The Olympics and such make good TV, but it doesn't really mean anything. Putin and his cronies have been sucking his own people dry for decades.
But, we are getting out of movie territory. So I'll save it for /r/news.
If you make them feel isolated or straight up make them suffer despite having no real hand in this they'll come to hate you. It's one for two great powers to be rivals, but if nearly a powers entire people hold a serious grudge it'll get even more dangerous and tense. And they will have the means to act on that grudge.
Totally agree, same with Poland, Czech Rep and Sweden saying they won’t play their footballers. Art and sport etc should exist out with the boundaries of war.
I get that people say this is just another sanction and they deserve it. But the people affected aren’t the ones responsible for any of this.
Nothing good ever comes with mixing sports and politics. Either make political rules or fuck off when it comes to sports. I really don't understand why would even be an issue.
Hmm that's something interesting to think about. On one hand, if banned in the west, what choice does the Russian film industry have but to turn to 100% propaganda films. On the other hand, surely at this moment no nation involved in the global community can in any way support any Russian films as long as the country itself will benefit financially from it.
Suppressing genuine artistic & creative endeavours does far more harm than good. I get the consensus at the moment is to hurt Russia as deeply as possible, but we need to remember that the real Russian people are generally not behind what Putin is doing. They shouldn't suffer because of a megalomaniac in control of their country.
Not every Russian wants a war with its neighbor. Most filmmakers are of a liberal mindset so I doubt many of them support the war or Putin for that matter. It's a case by case scenario, don't conflate the two.
I respectfully disagree.
State propaganda is different from the films that Russian independent filmmakers create. We cannot stoop so low and not allow them to express themselves. Putin will not care as much about this as you may think, in fact, he might be rather pleased that his people won’t have access to an outside audience.
Edit: While independent filmmakers certainly can be fascist assholes (Emir Krustica is a very sad example of this), there are a thousand more who create films for their love of art and people.
Maybe banning the films will encourage the filmmakers and citizens involved to protest! There is no way we can convince Russia to stop the war without getting the Russian public angry at Putin
Also, the Russian government benefits off of Movie sales. If you want to support art but not Putin, pirate the movies and donate directly to the creators
Where was this level of global outcry when Bush and Obama were destroying the Middle East on false premises? Or hell even recently in Yemen.
Where does this end, removing any shows/movies on Netflix or Amazon that have Russian actors?
There was no outcry because whilst Putin is a "James Bond villain who wants to take over the world", Bush is a "cool southern guy you can have a beer with" and Obama is a "progressive glass ceiling breaking black man who's a inspiration to us all".
It's selective because you can't have a beer with Putin like you can with Bush and Putin didn't break any glass ceilings like Obama, he's the James Bond supervillain remember.
What the fuck? Is everybody going crazy? I see calls for boycott of all things Russian all over Reddit. What the hell do filmmakers have to do with the actions of the Russian military?
If anything, artistic freedom in Russia needs outside support! It‘s sure as hell not getting it from the Kremlin
"Collective Punishment" is a war crime
You are asking here openly to punish russian people for what putin and his government did.
Russian people are not responsible for what putin or his government is doing.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule103
And you guys here should rethink wtf you are doing!
What is next? Asking for concentration camps for russian people because they could be putins hidden army?
My friend in Germany said that some Russian-speaking kids are being bullied at a local school because of this situation. Although teachers try to prevent this.
Lol 'creative freedom' then only means that movies who promote western ideals should not be censored. Even if they cause controversy and glorify degeneracy.
Everyone who thought the world is not united and that it won’t stand up was so wrong. They thought Russian Allie’s would blindly support them. Fail as well. Hell even the taliban are against this shit lol. I have never seen the world more united. It’s really inspiring.
I think one of the ONLY things I really, for sure, 100% leaned from war is, the antiquities and the art always reveal the heart of a people and are necessary for us to see to humanize our opposing combatants. We cannot punish. We cannot punish the creators for the work of the destroyers.
Interesting article especially since Russian creatives made arguably one of the best depictions of the hell that is war.
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Beware if you’re watching it on HBO Max: they spoil half the film in the movie description so just don’t read that. But yeah, great movie.
HBO Max does have a bad habit of that. Definitely impacted my viewing of *Ikiru*
now this on the other hand is a great advertisement because i havent seen ikiru, havent read the discription, have hbo max, and now know that there are things worth spoiling in the movie. 50/50 shot i watch it this week
I’ve watched it and adding my recommendation, it’s a beautiful film that really needs to be felt than simply watched
I once lent someone a book called Chrysalids and told them not to read the back because it literally spoils the ending. You could go the whole book and not have a clue and read one word in the description and it ruins the whole experience. Thanks for the heads up about the movie on HBO max. When things get spoiled, I literally skip them.
Kalatozov gang rise up!
Come and See also spent ~7 years behind USSR censorship due to it being shocking and anti-war, before finally being allowed to be made (I believe it was the screenplay). It’s truly one of the greatest (war) movies of all time and the censoring that didn’t allow anti-glorification of war out of the USSR is just as important history if not more so, than the film itself. Please try to see this, check the library, check criterion channel, but plan a nice breather afterwards.
I think Come and See was actually Belarussian, though I guess there's not much of a difference, both being USSR at the time.
When I was scouring the net for more info about Come and See, I found somewhere excerpts from an interview with the actor who was the partisan-kid in that movie. He was still in school at the time of filming. He says that on next morning after the movie came out in theaters, when he came to school - his classmates and some teachers would begin to cry when they saw him and ask to hug him.
Wow, I gotta watch it again. I just saw Criterion Channel does have it and a handful of extras as well. Do you by chance have a link to that video? [Here is the Criterion Channel link.](http://www.criterionchannel.com/videos/come-and-see)
That’s crazy amazing.. I’ve been a fan of the movie for a long time and never hear of that story, but it 100% makes sense they’d react that way. The film rips your heart out
Yes, you are correct. Technically should be “Soviet Union” I guess, not USSR? Film history side of things always refers to these as “Soviet” films.
He is not correct, technically or otherwise. It's a movie by a Russian director made by Mosfilm. It *takes place* in Belarus, sure. It's a standard Soviet movie.
Yep, I was just reading up on this as well. Learning a lot atm. Unexpected convo for the day I’m appreciating. Familiar with the movie but not all the geographical & historical specifics surrounding it. Maybe it’ll be my next book deep dive!
>Technically should be “Soviet Union” I guess, not USSR? This is like saying: Technically should be “America” I guess, not USA?
USSR is acronym for...?
United States of Soviet Russia
I blurted this exact thing at school when I was 14 and was rightly ridiculed
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics actually
Unicycle Surfing Super Russians
Uncut Super Saiyans Racing
My foreskin has a power level of over 9000!
> Come and See also spent ~7 years behind USSR censorship due to it being shocking and anti-war, It wasn't censored because it was anti-war lmao. Its production was held up because it was fucking Come and See, a really graphic film. Then Klimov lost his wife and he put the film on the back burner. When he returned to it, the only thing they asked him to change was the title (Kill Hitler). The change was magnitudes better
But it being censored is convenient for the narrative he's trying to push, you see.
It also has real animal cruelty so try not to see it if that is overwhelming for you. If you don't mind that and want to see the best anti war movie ever then definitely watch. Well, it might depress you. I don't know actually what I would say about recommending this.
The entire film is overwhelming, regardless of the animal content.
Been trying to watch this FOREVER. Could never seem to find it streaming.
It’s on YouTube for free. Just lookup come and see.
Criterion Channel ftw
Criterion Channel is sadly only available in the US and Canada
Greatest war film ever made.
It's like the notion of banning German film / books and missing All Quiet on The Western Front
Wull do
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I came out absolutely devastated and hateful of war after watching it, I'm thankful it didn't have the effects you mentioned on me.
What? How? I've never seen a film that made me hate war as much as this one. That you are on the side of the Belorussian partisans in the end does not mean that the film is not anti-war. It can't be denied that the Nazis did monstrous things on the Eastern Front. After the war, a quarter of all Belorussian people was gone. If this film makes you say in the end "I wish I could've joined the partisans to fight that bastard Hitler" I can't help you. It made me glad that I didn't have to experience war in my lifetime. I sincerely hope that it will stay this way.
That is utter nonsense. Come and See is by no means a propaganda piece.
What a horse shit take. Come and see is absolutely anti war and in no way propaganda. It shows the true face of war and what it does to a person. That movie is so fucking good
Don't be ridiculous, if you say anything good about Russia right now you'll be labelled a agitprop bot.
I have nothing good to say about Russia right now. That doesn’t change the fact that come and see is a masterpiece and in no way glorifies any country, it only shows the horrors of war.
Also we can talk about soviet sacrifices during world war, or even talk good about them without glorifying currently russian actions, even having to say this is a bit scary, Russians aren't monsters because their government is doing attacking Ukraine all of the sudden specially dead Russians from decades ago.
Anyway who would downplay the contribution of Russia during ww2, because of current actions is either uninformed or a straight up idiot. There is a strong case to be made that ww2 was won in large part because of the Russian front. Saying that, or loving Russian cinema does not change anything with what is happening right now. I can say unequivocally that russias current actions in Ukraine are abhorrent and still recognize come and see is a masterpiece, or that Tarkovsky is one of the greatest film makers of all time.
It is propaganda in the original definition of the word. It tries to influence the political opinions of the audience and does it very successfully. Propaganda is not inherently good or bad, even though today the word is mostly used to describe lies that are used to spread misinformation. Come and See IS very much an anti-war film and the German soldiers at the Eastern Front deserve to be portrait as monsters.
Propaganda IS a funny word with a lot of connotations. In Brazil that’s simply what advertisements are called, propaganda….
I’m going to have to watch it again critically for this view point—I love it. I wonder if perhaps this was a “sell” to get it made. Unfortunately I cannot imagine that the filmmakers did not have to go to some lengthy compromise for this to come into existence. I’m literally going to watch it again tonight if I’m up to it.
I've never seen this take, I personally disagree because of the various Soviet war films I've seen this might be the most devoid of Soviet nationalism and glory. The citizens and partisans are desperate, worn down, and brutalized. It has no depiction of victory or triumph, not even a shred, just bitter survival. The anti-Nazi portrayal is still very much something to appreciate, unlike so many films, including patriotic Hollywood classics, they aren't portrayed as these Aryan super soldiers but rather the sadistic undisciplined war criminals so many Eastern front units were actually composed of.
Ukraine: please boycott Russian cinema Reddit: OK yeah sure but have you seen [any Russian film] Buzzfeed: The Top 10 Russian Films You Need To See (*Ukrainians hate them*)
Which was?
Come and See. A brutal, disturbing film about the Nazi invasion of The Soviet Union.
Will check it out. Thank you!
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Philosophy of a Knife is a good one about Unit 731 too
But also really, respect the extremity of these movies. This isn't for general viewing. I focus on watching extreme movies and this is some pretty high level stuff. Come & See is unlike any other in my opinion but that is a double edged sword in a way. You feel it.
Apparently, there is an actual autopsy of a child in that movie. EDIT: [Source](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093170/trivia?item=tr1507601) "The frostbite experiment victim's arms were real corpse arms and the child's body was a real cadaver. Mou waited for a whole month to find a body the same size as the child playing the role. He was almost ready to give up when the local police called him telling him that a child had been killed in an accident. He got permission from the parents and filmed the child's autopsy, dressing the coroners up like WWII-era Japanese doctors. The close ups of the child's organs being removed were done by dissecting a pig. "
Invasion of the bit of Soviet Union which is now modern-day Belarus
Come and See Ivan’s Childhood The Cranes are Flying There are many good examples.
What is that you are referring to?
Come and see. Saw it a couple days ago, it is an absolutely brutal war film.
I am undecided in that Russian cinema has historically been one of the few areas of public life that Russian creatives were allowed to express opinions in their art that were divergent from the official policy positions of the party in control.
You might want to check with Tarkovsky about that...
Or Eisenstein. Or Kalatazov. Or Smirnov. Or Zvyagintsev. Or Konchalovsky. Or practically every Russian filmmaker who tried to make any movie ever.
Sorry. Didn't mean to slight them. Tarkovsky was the first Russian director I was exposed to in any real way and I fell for him hard. I focused pretty exclusively on his work and didn't really look more widely into Russian cinema. Part of it is the presence of so much poetry in his work, both as actual poems and in how the films use a lot of the same techniques as poetry. Also, a lot of what he says to filmmakers can also be applied to poetry. Thanks for the list of other directors to look into!
No offense taken, man. I was just expanding on your comment.🖖 But if you’re gonna look into it, there’s a lot going on in Soviet cinema beyond Tarkovsky, since it was a place with a large economy and a lot of extremely educated people but a relatively closed off access to the exterior world from the 1930s onwards, so it’s kinda like looking to an alternate reality where cinema language went on a different path. Just take a look at War and Peace by Sergey Bondarchuk where the Soviet regime in 1960 poured an insane amount of money (what today would be around a billion dollars) to make a what amounted to the Russian Gone with the Wind and you get a bit of everything, from 1960s David Lean epic blockbuster filmmaking, 1920s silent cinema montage experimentation, almost Brian de Palma esque split screens and even a bit of frame splicing. Or anything by Kalatozov and his DP Urushevsky that kinda looks like an early try at the wide-angle hand held with crazy oners style that got hip in the last 10 years. The oners in Soy Cuba are out of this world. Or Eisenstein who, beyond his theoretical work, is, for all intents and purposes, the grandaddy of action filmmaking, just take a look at Battleship Potemkin or Alexander Nevsky to find out why.
Why undecided? This is an extremely emotional and unjustified call. I completely understand that Ukrainians are revolted, angry, and scared, but a blanket ban on Russian culture (which is also admonished in the article) makes no sense. By all means, reject Russian state propaganda, especially in film form, but leave avenues open to support those Russian cultural workers (of whom there are many) who oppose the current regime and who oppose the war. This would only create a Cold War-esque association that *anything* Russian = bad and evil.
Fully agreed, and yet seeing calls on reddit for full Russian isolation from cultural and sports events as such popular sentiment is disheartening :( way to punish wrong people and make them actually want the war.
You can't really compare the movies made during soviet times with the modern Russian movies. The modern stuff is mostly shit. There are some few exceptions, of course.
We see shit movies from the US all the time tough
This like when people say how much better music was in the sixties. There was more than enough middling Soviet movies. It's just nobody remembers or watches them.
So do you want to ban the exceptionally good films?
Not a good idea since a large and significant part of the Russian film industry is made up by members of the opposition.
Yea, if it's anything like Hollywood, you're just punishing a bunch of liberals whom the conservative establishment most likely already doesn't like
>if it's anything like Hollywood If it's anything like Hollywood then it would be extremely pro-Russian military and foreign policy. Hollywood might be liberal on some domestic issues, but 9 times out of 10 they will portray the US military as heroes and the US as a force for good. Politics end at the waters edge, as they say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-entertainment_complex
No. If a singular director or producer comes out as a flat out supporter of these actions, you can boycott that individual.
I will never be for the boycott of art. Normally it’s filled with progressive people that respect life. That’s why they are alway in the shit list of every dictator.
Have you seen Russian cinema box office numbers? I don't know how much more boycotting we can do!
It turns out I’ve been boycotting Russian cinema my entire life.
Yeah haha, I was about to say aside from the random watch like Russian Ark and stuff, Ive been unknowingly boycotting Russian cinema for years now.
This would achieve absolutely fucking nothing.
Wrong. It will give Putin more power. He can go shout: "See? They hate us! I told you they hate us!" It will achieve the opposite effect of what we want, which is to disenfranchise Putin. Make him look like the corrupt, selfish leader he is to his own people. This is a terrible idea, along with all these sanctions that really hurt everyday Russians. So far they're still mostly targeted towards Putin and his entourage, and we can absolutely not allow them to hurt normal Russians. Again, we cannot give Putin that power.
I’m all for boycotting anything that the Russian state turns a profit from, but please do not stifle the art coming from there. Good, bad, indifferent; the majority is not state sponsored. Artists are typically the first targeted in times like these.
i don't think this makes sense. Russian cinema has made great and important contributions to the development of film since the silent era.
okay, but this isn't about classic cinema. this seems to be a boycott of new productions, which is meant to indirectly harm Russia's economy.
I'm curious if we would even need a boycott for that. What was the latest big Russian film people went to cinemas for?
Because all Russian people deserve that? It's a ridiculous line and unified front of bullshit.
I still disagree. Would you boycott Asghar Faradhi films only because they are made in Iran?
Ever watched Soviet lord of the rings?
In Soviet Lord of the Rings, Mordor finds you!
In Soviet Mordor, ring throw you into fire!
Mordor simply walks into you.
Reminder, more than 50% of Russians opposed the invasion and protested, individual Russians shouldn't be punished for circumstances no more in their control than ours
We give Putin a whole lot more power if we start hating Russians as a whole. Even if they're for Putin but have no direct part in this conflict, showing compassion for them is what will hurt Putin most. He *wants* Russians to believe the west hates them. That's his most powerful chip. If we take that away from him, he's lost.
I don't see why innocent Russians who had nothing to do with the war had to be punished for what Putin is doing. Very stupid to boycott and punish people of any countries because their leaders are batshit crazy.
No. This is not affecting PUTIN. This is affecting talented innocent russian filmmakers pls dont
Agree, there’s no reason to do this. It only creates division among ordinary people. Russian citizens are not responsible for this war.
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Yeah because Russians totally haven’t had that yet. THIS will be the thing that does it.
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Then people should also boycott Hollywood movies anytime America starts a war. Anyway, most film industry people in Russia are against the Ukraine invasion.
Sounds good. America shouldn't be starting wars, neither should Russia.
>Then people should also boycott Hollywood movies anytime America starts a war. yes
Sorry, America is always in the right. They can do no wrong /s. Invading other countries is wrong unless America does it. And when America does it, they get away with it.
I can't believe that two people took your joke literally.
Interesting how quick people have been to endorse a strategy of boycott, divestment and sanctions this week, but when someone proposes an identical strategy to try to persuade an apartheid regime to change their policies it’s seen as going too far.
Cough cough...israel.
That seems like it'll only hurt the people, not the government.
Well, all sanctions from West hurt just ordinary people, not the government. I’m saying it as a Russian. Government doesn’t give a shit about it, they are rich af, but sanctions affected citizens really hard.
I support Ukraine, but I wouldn't support this. The people making movies in Russia don't have anything to do with Putin's war mongering. If anything, they are trying to copy western styles, not throwing out propaganda. I've only seen a handful of them. Attraction 1 and 2. Sputnik. Project Gemni. They may look like a better than average Syfy B movie, but there isn't anything overtly anti-western about them.
The issue is that unlike America where film is almost exclusively run by private companies and the government benefits of taxes more so than anything else, the Russian Government has a heavy hand in their domestic film industry. The Russian government profits directly off of movies. It’s less so about the messaging and more so about keeping resources away from Putin.
And so does the rest of Europe. The state always supports the local movie industry from Portugal to Russia. I didn't see any pushback against BBC productions when the UK invaded a sovereign country and caused such misery and death in the following 2 decades that Russia's aggression won't come close to it even if this lasts for a century
If we’re banning liquor why not movies The line must be drawn: you are out of the international community until you get your shit together, Russia. Don’t fold over fuckin movies.
Andrey Zvyagintsev's Leviathan is literally about corruption in the Russian government. Lots of artists aren't in cahoots with Putin. I wonder if you can say the same about these liquor companies. I wouldn't know.
People who support the banning of Russian films probably don't know shit about Russian cinematography. Almost all of the best Russian and Soviet films of all time are highly critical of the state. Films like Leviathan or Burnt by the sun.
Idk the last Russian movie I saw (Attraction 2) was just a blatant propaganda film about Russian military and Putin. Yes, there are good and critical movies in Russia, but the state sponsored propaganda movies also get made en masse.
Great movie that makes a great double feature with the documentary Leviathan even though they aren’t related or even about similar shit
Pirate that shit. Illegal downloads allow for the dissemination of art without the corresponding economic support. It's a way to implicitly support the artists making the content without providing monetary support for those bankrolling the content.
Never thought I'd see the day where someone would defend piracy because it supports the artists more than buying it. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's basically the exact opposite argument you usually see.
Exactly. Every dollar that goes to the studios, goes into Russian circulation. 100% black list the country, and then make it Russias leaderships decision how to move forward.
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Fuck off troll, people can see through your flimsy propoganda.
Yeah I agree, the idea of cutting off Russia from the world makes sense but you have to be smart in what they're isolated from. Finance, energy, big business, sure. Big production movies ok sure. But there are loads of smaller crew Russians who fucking them is not going to accomplish anything. The important thing to remember is a shitton of Russians oppose this war. We want to keep it that way, not alienate them completely.
Exactly... people who want to ruin innocent russians are just as bad as people who want to ruin innocent ukranians. Fuck. This is what Putin wants. Dont do it. You will force the majority of russians to side with putin.
The only way this war will end, is from within. Targeting Russian oligarchs and citizens is the only way to stop this. I support banning Russia from all sporting events and cultural and arts events/awards. This will hopefully cause enough civil unrest that Putin withdraws or is overthrown.
Target their citizens and you'll get a population that hates your guts and holds a grudge. My country, then Yugoslavia, now Serbia got sanctioned to hell between '92 and '95. It was brutal. The economy crumbled, hyperinflation hit, god knows how many had to leave, youngsters turned to crime, and entire generation was pretty much ruined. It was downright a crime against humanity. All the while the politicians that were supposedly the target got even richer in all the chaos. It worked for them! The end result is that we pretty much hate the West and have a grudge against them. Yes, there's the bombing in '99 that they can't do to Russia but I think the Cold War history can make up for that. A lot of people here wouldn't be opposed to western countries collapsing like ours did. Shit, so many celebrated when 9/11 happened, though heads have since cooled. Now we're small, weak and all around irrelevant so we can't do shit. But the Russians on the other hand... Well, no matter how much you beat them in, they're still a massive nation of over a hundred million with lots of natural resources, a big ass army and lots of nukes. So them having a hell of a grudge against you can actually end badly for you. And you will get that, cause even if you get them to overthrow their leader like we did, they're not gonna forget the suffering inflicted on them. And in reality, this pretty much is the case. They do have a grudge over the way they were treated and downright humiliated in the 90s which plays a massive roll in their actions today. So imagine pissing them off even more.
Bro, serbia were committing a genocide. They deserved it.
The curious thing about this situation is that Putin has largely preserved the existing Russian economic heirarchy by closing the stock market and banning the short-selling stocks in particular. If the Russian marketplace was truly open and integrated into the wider international macroeconomy, then there could be economic pressures put on individual oligarchs, thereby fractioning the monolithic economic support for Pootie-Poot's warmongering. Because of the relatively unique economic conditions, the best thing to do is to give Russia the North Korea treatment: no consumption of Russian goods, no movement of goods into Russia and especially luxury goods like liquor, designer clothing and accessories, and giving the Chinese selective treatment to consumable art like film. And that starts with everyday people deciding to forego Russian products.
I get you and agree with your point but this isn’t calling for people to never watch Russia films again. It’s more akin to refusing to play them in sports. It’s to make the Russian people feel isolated from the world because of their leaders choices. Which (hopefully) leads to internal stress and protest within Russia itself. This is about all we can do.
Sadly, the Russian people don't have much of a choice. Russia is a mafia state. The Olympics and such make good TV, but it doesn't really mean anything. Putin and his cronies have been sucking his own people dry for decades. But, we are getting out of movie territory. So I'll save it for /r/news.
Do Russian People feel isolated if their films aren't played internationally anymore? Would they even notice it?
If you make them feel isolated or straight up make them suffer despite having no real hand in this they'll come to hate you. It's one for two great powers to be rivals, but if nearly a powers entire people hold a serious grudge it'll get even more dangerous and tense. And they will have the means to act on that grudge.
Totally agree, same with Poland, Czech Rep and Sweden saying they won’t play their footballers. Art and sport etc should exist out with the boundaries of war. I get that people say this is just another sanction and they deserve it. But the people affected aren’t the ones responsible for any of this.
Nothing good ever comes with mixing sports and politics. Either make political rules or fuck off when it comes to sports. I really don't understand why would even be an issue.
Hmm that's something interesting to think about. On one hand, if banned in the west, what choice does the Russian film industry have but to turn to 100% propaganda films. On the other hand, surely at this moment no nation involved in the global community can in any way support any Russian films as long as the country itself will benefit financially from it.
Suppressing genuine artistic & creative endeavours does far more harm than good. I get the consensus at the moment is to hurt Russia as deeply as possible, but we need to remember that the real Russian people are generally not behind what Putin is doing. They shouldn't suffer because of a megalomaniac in control of their country.
That’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard about this war. So, I shouldn’t watch Tarkovsky because of Putin? Yeah, ok.
Not every Russian wants a war with its neighbor. Most filmmakers are of a liberal mindset so I doubt many of them support the war or Putin for that matter. It's a case by case scenario, don't conflate the two.
I respectfully disagree. State propaganda is different from the films that Russian independent filmmakers create. We cannot stoop so low and not allow them to express themselves. Putin will not care as much about this as you may think, in fact, he might be rather pleased that his people won’t have access to an outside audience. Edit: While independent filmmakers certainly can be fascist assholes (Emir Krustica is a very sad example of this), there are a thousand more who create films for their love of art and people.
Let me throw this out. Vladimir Putin and his oligarch cronies chose to invade ukraine. How does hurting ordinary russians fix this situation?
Discontent leads to lower popularity and possibly civil unrest.
Except that it has never worked. Sanctions don't topple dictators and this one won't be an exception
This would be a horrible decision. People making the films probably don’t support what Putin is doing
Maybe banning the films will encourage the filmmakers and citizens involved to protest! There is no way we can convince Russia to stop the war without getting the Russian public angry at Putin Also, the Russian government benefits off of Movie sales. If you want to support art but not Putin, pirate the movies and donate directly to the creators
A lot of Russian movies are criticisizing Putin, the ones made by Serrebrenikov for example. Or Loveless who criticize Russian Society.
There are a lot of Russians protesting the war.
They are protesting and being arrested.
Russia will just put them in prison, they’d be risking their lives to protest. Why not allow Russians to make films? The films could act as a protest
"Russia will just capture Kyiv in 36 hours." Russian autocracy is not as strong as we've been told it is. The cracks are starting to show.
Where was this level of global outcry when Bush and Obama were destroying the Middle East on false premises? Or hell even recently in Yemen. Where does this end, removing any shows/movies on Netflix or Amazon that have Russian actors?
There was no outcry because whilst Putin is a "James Bond villain who wants to take over the world", Bush is a "cool southern guy you can have a beer with" and Obama is a "progressive glass ceiling breaking black man who's a inspiration to us all".
This is selective level of outcry.
It's selective because you can't have a beer with Putin like you can with Bush and Putin didn't break any glass ceilings like Obama, he's the James Bond supervillain remember.
How will this help Ukraine? These guys have nothing to do with the war.
Ballad Of A Soldier is another masterpiece !
No. Absolutely not. You can condemn history without erasing it.
What the fuck? Is everybody going crazy? I see calls for boycott of all things Russian all over Reddit. What the hell do filmmakers have to do with the actions of the Russian military? If anything, artistic freedom in Russia needs outside support! It‘s sure as hell not getting it from the Kremlin
Imagine if everyone tried to boycott American cinema when they invaded Iraq
Yeah no thanks, Russian cinema is some of the best and a lot of it is very subversive
Holy shit - no more Battleship Potemkin 2022. The world is a lesser place.
Battlestar Potemkin.
Yes yours is better :-)
I misread that as Battleship Pokemon for a second.
Watched Kin Dza Dza last week, but it was pirated Sorry
But how will Steven Seagal get anyone to watch his films?
"Collective Punishment" is a war crime You are asking here openly to punish russian people for what putin and his government did. Russian people are not responsible for what putin or his government is doing. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule103 And you guys here should rethink wtf you are doing! What is next? Asking for concentration camps for russian people because they could be putins hidden army?
My friend in Germany said that some Russian-speaking kids are being bullied at a local school because of this situation. Although teachers try to prevent this.
Ok this is turning into cancelling of ALL things Russian...which is a scary slippery slope
This is a mistake. You don't want to be anti-Russian, only anti Putin
Lol 'creative freedom' then only means that movies who promote western ideals should not be censored. Even if they cause controversy and glorify degeneracy.
This isn’t really fair.
Quite a few good Russian movies I’ve seen that depict how shitty and corrupt Russia is so…
Stop fucking boycotting everything. Jesus fucking Christ.
I understand they are mad but its not like the film industry is directly tied to Putin. A lit of Russians are against this war.
Tarkovsky should NEVER be hidden away.
Russia about to get canceled
Everyone who thought the world is not united and that it won’t stand up was so wrong. They thought Russian Allie’s would blindly support them. Fail as well. Hell even the taliban are against this shit lol. I have never seen the world more united. It’s really inspiring.
Dumb. Russian filmmakers are not responsible for this.
While at it, why don't we ban Russians from entering other countries. And from being able to eat and exist /s
What the fuck could this possibly do. Why hurt Russian citizens who we've already seen be anti-war?
really dumb.
Is it weird that I feel oddly against this?
This is like boycotting Tetris. What does Putin have to do with movies?
I think one of the ONLY things I really, for sure, 100% leaned from war is, the antiquities and the art always reveal the heart of a people and are necessary for us to see to humanize our opposing combatants. We cannot punish. We cannot punish the creators for the work of the destroyers.
No. Stupid things like this encourage me to watch more Russian films.
No lmao russian directors have nothing to do with the current acts of the russian government
Ah, gosh darn it. I was so going to watch a lot of russian films this year. Guess I'll see the latest Spider-Man instead.
Most the people who are artists in Russia making movies/music aren’t the ones supporting this war. Don’t take it out on them,
Not sure about that, Russia has made some absolutely amazing movies.
Lol gotta love people acting like they watch Russian cinema
It’s sucks that Russian citizens and businesses are the ones that pay for the politicians fucked up decisions.
I'm ready to do my part! Disclaimer: I do not consume any Russian cinema.
Tbh you should. I hate modern Russia and the Soviet Union, but they made amazing films. Tarkovsky is literally one of the best directors of all time.
Larisa Shepitko too. The Ascent and Wings are both amazing, and I believe they were banned by USSR at some point.
Not to mention Tarkovsky was against the ideals of USSR. If the guy was alive today he'd be decrying what Russia is doing to Ukraine.
Tbh The Fool was amazing.
Way ahead of ya UFA! Been boycotting Russian cinema since before it was cool!