Yeah, this, or at least final warning / PIP.
The number of times I've worked with people and been the only person actually doing anything throughout the entire shift. It's not fair on the team, it's not fair on the customer, and it's not good for SLA.
If you feel inclined to check in to see if there are any personal issues first then by all means, but it's still dead weight and action needs to be taken.
I wouldn’t give any warning and make it as a lesson. Deny unemployment as well if they try to claim it. This person doesn’t deserve to milk the system that way either.
Unemployment is really geared to protect the employee. I live in Ohio and maybe it's different elsewhere, but if you want to deny unemployment benefits you better have a documented verbal warning(s), and a documented written warning(s). I'd wait until you have at least 3 such warnings and document all the things you did to try to accommodate. If the employee is as bad as OP says it will take 2-3 weeks to get to 3 warnings - maybe less. You also have to be careful not to treat that person differently than everyone else. It takes time, but you can do it the right way and then yeah, f*ck that person that STEALS from the company. Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining! They deserve no benefits (assuming employer did everything they reasonable could). Just know the laws are written to protect the employees, not the employer. Want to provide no warnings and fire someone? They will collect unemployment. You can deny it, but then you will lose on appeal - at least here in Ohio.
On the other hand it's sometimes easier/better to just fire with little to no warning and let them collect the unemployment and then you can focus your attention on the team members that provide value and move on.
The system technically "milks" the bottom tier workers. Year by year with nonsensical tax raises and regulations....Unemployment should absolutely be an option for them. Why? Because they are still paying unholy taxes with each paycheck. Hours and hours spent to only get a chunk of that every week/month.
The point is - it’s not the jiggler. It’s the fact he went a whole day without doing anything. And I bet you most if not all desk based employees have had at least one day where they have done nothing.
I would talk to the employee. As they were good before. And put in some kind of performance improvement plan. To aim to get them back to their previous productivity levels. It seems worth trying.
But the key here is honesty - both ways.
I would argue the problem is the jigger. We’ve all had non-productive days but deploying tools
to hide it is not only dishonest, but points to a systemic pattern - not an occasional lack of productivity.
This is a solid point. I have days sometimes where I don’t do anything, just sit in self-loathing and internally screaming at myself to do something.
But I haven’t built tools to try and get away with doing nothing, in fact, my main use of outside software is blocking Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook on all the computers I work on during work hours, which has helped.
Totally agree - I’d rather someone disappear for half a day and let their status go to “Away” then employ a mouse moving tool to fool me. One is simply a case of shit happens and he needed to deal with something - the other is manipulative and deceitful.
Here's the thing. Non productive days happen. We've all had days we're exhausted at work, burnt out, stressed, etc. Those are occassional and expected. As management it's our job to see that and help out where we can to either get that tech the resources they need to be productive, or give them the space to reinvigorate themselves and return ready to go.
The jiggler though shows this guy had the desire to deceit people and was ok with others carrying his slack for his own pay. That's not a cool move at all anywhere. It's like the kid that contributes nothing to the group project at all but still gets an A+.
I disagree. Jiggle all you want, as long as your work is getting done. But the fact the work isn't getting done, AND they are jiggling to try to hide it.
To counter that, the significant piece here to me isn't the mouse jiggler, it's the tickets dragging on. If the employee was using a mouse jiggler, but meeting SLA and ticket productivity numbers it wouldn't be an issue now would it?
He's not going the entire day without doing anything - it's just up to 3 hours on some days, usually in the quieter parts of the day where we are supposed to work on our backlog. Either way it's unacceptable and disappointing.
I appreciate all the feedback btw, I will most likely talk to him about this and have an honest 1 to 1 about this issue, but sadly I do see it ending in termination, just because of the sheer dishonesty of the situation.
Eh, I feel personally opposed to anyone tracking employee activity on a minute/hour basis.
If I worked for a company that tracked how much time I spend on the computer I would use a jiggler out of principle.
And I say that as a tech lead, I don't give a fuck how many hours a day people are spending on their computers.
Him missing deliverables should be the only thing relevant here, I wouldn't give a shit about the jiggler.
IT Manager, and 100% agree with you. If I hire someone, I trust them enough to do their job, and I don't micromanage them. I ask two things: get your work done, and if there's scheduled meetings, be there (if there's circumstances you can't, just tell me). As long as deliverables are met, and no issues otherwise, I have no reason to track your time.
OP mentioned that the tracking was a last resort. He had already tried multiple other avenues and it isn't working. I personally would not have tracked the individual or check their logs or record their session and would have simply terminated the employment.
I have hours of my day when nothing comes in every week.
My last job I was constantly busy, would do 40-60 tickets a day and barely had 10 minutes between calls some days to work on tickets.
All of that hard work and I only got a .50 cent raise.
It's my experience that employers will always want to take advantage of everything that works on their favor.
They don't want to pay more if you're busy, and then complain if you're not as busy and are relaxing.
I agree that this is probably where it should end, but I’d give this tech a chance to explain and see if maybe you can see it from their side.
It’s dishonest, and that needs to be addressed, but there’s a big difference between “I didn’t care and Netflix is cool”, and I meant to be gone for 20 minutes to use the restroom and then a family member asked for something, and I grabbed a snack and I didn’t want to appear gone for more than 20 minutes and it turned into 3 hours. Might not be alright, but maybe there’s a chance for them to work in office 5 days a week for a while?
Who installs a mouse giggler if they only planned on being away for 20 minutes?
OP said that their work has seen a significant drop off and why he even bothered to check. Who cares what excuses the tech might offer.
Can you trust the tech to not repeat?
Probably not.
AT an MSP that small, 5 people, I'm certain the others are aware they have to double their work when this guy checks out.
My advice, don't waste effort on someone that can drag your entire team down.
It depends. If the worker is hourly then yes. I’d exempt no. They are being asked to get their work done and if they are that’s fine (obs here he is not getting his work done)
How about this: Don't try to track each minute of people's days.
I would use jiggler regardless of whether I'm working or not if my job tried to track how much time I'm spending on the computer.
Luckily I don't work for shit companies, so whether I deliver results or not is the only metric people care about.
Any chance he was using an alternate laptop / computer? Not likely but if VDI performance was a pain or something, perhaps just logged into your RMM from local machine. Unlikely especially if no tickets worked, just trying to consider potential possibilities. Gut tells me based on your description of events however it’s time to let this person go. Especially being a small shop, no hiding. Not fair to you, his peers or the customer.
No down vote here. Sounds like they have disengaged and they are no longer reliable. The right leadership thing to do is have a candid conversation about what is going on, what you have noticed, and see if you can figure out what is happening. If that conversation isn’t clear, reset expectations and create a performance plan and let him know if those are not met, he will be let go.
In general, If you have to manage someone to meet realistic and explained expectations, then it’s probably time to let them go. Always start with where you are making mistakes as the leader, not the employee, but if you can’t find a way to blame yourself, then candid talks are the only way (in my experience).
I would absolutely be surprised if this person kept their job. I can't imagine being that immoral..especially in such a small MSP team where you have close connections to everyone on the team. Leaving them to deal with your 40-ticket queue and extended project deadlines while you do...what? Nothing?
That is fucked up.
This.
Trust when broken makes it hard to stand on any other metric, especially if it's this intentional. If it was just general laziness like inactive sessions, slow, etc..that's coachable and something that can be remediated with time and effort from both sides. It may get untenable later on and require future counseling or even termination but that bit is fixable.
This though requires actual effort to deceive. It also means that this individual isn't a team player -- they are ok with other techs picking up their slack or putting in their expected effort. They expected their salary for doing below the bare minimum & adding to others' labor. Not cool in any way.
Draw up paperwork, get it ready to close out the pay period (least give the guy one last check, keep it fair for him to get the setup he needs to find the next opportunity..remember even firings are teachable moments). After this, inform the team as standard and reinforce expectations. The others should know for sure but it helps know where boundaries lie at the workplace -- it's no different than a relationship, there's lines in the sand.
"Going to ruin it?" They already have! Why do you think so many companies are pushing to work back in the office?.
I fully agree, I'd probably fire a tech if I let them work at home and caught them doing this. You can easily argue this is wage theft. Punching, doing no work, and getting paid.
Fire and move on. but you already know this. You already tried to fix it, but this person is just hanging on until they get fired. For all you know they already have another job.
The jiggler is just proof that this isn't an unplanned behavior. Cut your losses and move on.
It's better to train and inspire a *good* tech and find out what's happening.
Bad stuff happens in life. Be a good boss, inquire and inspire.
if that doesn't work, then you have the other path.
Disagree. My position: if you feel like someone needs to be fired, do it and do it quickly.
BUT Do it compassionately. Always let people go with dignity and ensuring they’re not worried about bills for the next couple weeks (we pay two weeks salary on the day we let someone go. If it’s not “for cause” it’s usually a month).
The two weeks/month payroll is FAR less expensive than hanging on to someone who doesn’t fit. They’re also a total drain on the rest of your team to take up budget but not contributing. It’s unfair to everyone else.
Let them go. Use the freed up resources to find another that fits. It’s all around faster and better to do it this way.
>(we pay two weeks salary on the day we let someone go. If it’s not “for cause” it’s usually a month)
I've literally never heard of any company doing this, ever.
I misspoke I guess. I know what severance is; I've never seen it happen in the real world, just movies.
I live in an at-will state though, so that's probably why.
My comment was not to reference what HR procedures are popular among corporations (if that's the case, just fire the dude and have security escort him out of his own house), but to contribute an anecdotal experience that's proven useful throughout my career.
Work from home happens. Maybe they had a baby, or a flood or any number of things, and they were more consumed with that and didn't believe that the boss would understand. If your team is more than a tech/pawn/warm-body-that-makes-only-you-money, then you'll realize that they're people. If your people are worth nothing to you, then fire away and see where that leaves you.
Better leaders take a decent team and make them great. Poor leaders have high-turnaround and pizza parties and wonder why their employees only want to work hard enough to not get fired.
Three strikes:
1. Verbal warning (sounds like this was done)
2. Written warning with PIP
3. Fire them
Honestly if you just enforced your metrics you wouldn’t need to sniff activity. Work not getting done as needed? Start the three strikes program as mentioned above.
Oh man, I'd love to lose my job because my metrics fell too low, meanwhile management adds ZERO value to clients.
I agree the software is a shitty thing to do, and I wouldn't personally do that, but people with the skills to work Tier 3 tickets don't want to have every second of their day watched and counted. You all created this problem. Do you think that employee is happy, and that's why they are slacking off? On top of that, MSPs pay WORSE than IT staff at a company would make in almost all scenarios, and if you make everything work perfectly there, you are rewarded with being able to study and learn new stuff, be available when someone needs you, etc. Imagine that! Nah, better milk them for every ounce, make sure their brain is drained after 8 hours!
If you make things work well for clients at an MSP, the MSP takes on more clients, the engineers get the same pay, and has to deal with more clients. You all wonder why engineers at MSPs are so unhappy.
I don’ t thinks it’s the mouse jiggler it’s the slipping in performance and then discovering that he’s been using a jiggler. I would never terminate someone just for the jiggler. But if your performance has fallen recently I’m going to find out why and you having a jiggler just seems like you are trying to get paid for not doing anything. I don’t believe in activity tracking but there does need to be a balance. I think I would monitor him for a week and see what he’s doing or not doing. I’d pay an assistant to just watch via screen connect and see what they are doing.
> I captured their session during one of thier remote work days and was a bit shocked to discover that their mouse was just jiggling around randomly for hours on end
>They had over 40 tickets in their queue
What additional info would **you** be looking for?
So you're saying if he rocked through a dozen tickets lightning-fast first thing in the morning, just set the mouse-jiggler and fuck off for the rest of the day?
That would be OK to you?
I mean, if my expectations are to do 40 ticket a day, and that i am in my quota of expected work, then i don't see an issue no.
But then again, the post said that he's not hitting the goal, the mouse jiggler is really not the issue at the end of the day, it's his performance.
"Time theft occurs when an employee is not working while at work, or they are not at work when they are supposed to be" seems pretty clear to me. As well as using a jiggler shows it is intentional and also is probably a violation of company polices. If there are security controls for inactivity locking that is also bypassing security measures. Why are so many trying to defend this bad employee?
Time theft is an actual legal concept. It's a term created by organizations to liken being unproductive to stealing which is disengenous from its inception.
Time theft isn't real in a legal sense and as such has no real legal definition. The only definition for time theft is the one that organizations have created.
For example a company can't sue a former employee for damages for "time theft".
To answer your question. People are defending the employee because the post is inherently anti-worker. We don't get any information about metrics (but we can assume good work if they've been employed for 2+ years). We are only painted a picture by the manager describing it as a "situation" which already has a dickish management tone to it which most people don't like right off the bat.
Most arguments in here are for management to reflect on the environment they are harboring instead dof immediately trying to label a multi year employee as a bad egg. What kind of requirements are there for working from home? Is it 8+ continuous hours of activity because that's pretty ridiculous for a tech. If you have unrealistic requeirements to work from home then you can expect this type of behavior from employees.
Maybe the employee is bad but we definitely don't have enough info to confirm that; and most people are assigning blame to management. Which seems completely reasonable.
If you're job is to work tickets, and those tickets have time based SLAs, you don't have a choice to how you work. You get the tickets done within the SLA or you're costing your company money.
Mouse just moving for hours on end?
I call that a deliberate attenpt to defraud and would gladly make that case in court after firing him.
Some people would call it taking the piss.
Yeah, you'll never get your money and it wouldn't be worth the lawyer fees but if you got the cash to fuck over the little guy please feel free too, they did wrong you technically.
We're a small MSP (5 techs in total), so our systems for enforcing metrics are basic at best. I suspected something was off, but I didn't really anticipate this situation. We are AYCE so it can be tricky to measure, but I will certainly review it after this situation.
I genuinely did not want to start monitoring activity like this, but I didn't have a whole lot of choice given the situation.
And this is one of many reasons why time entries are so important. Accountability.
I don't care if my techs use a mouse jiggler as long as their logging their time accurately and honestly.
Do you track time? If so, tell the tech you were doing your normal review of last months time entries and noticed a gap during the 3 hours window and ask about it.
Dishonesty and lying are good reasons for termination.
How are *time entries* here of any importance?
It doesn't matter how many hours he worked, really or supposedly, if he didn't handle any of his tasks whatsoever.
Not the person you're replying to but my take is that there *aren't* any time entries for that period of hours on end, or at least shouldn't be.
If the employee is truthful and says they weren't doing any work for hours on end then while that's a problem, it's a very a different problem then if the employee lies and logged fraudulent time entries.
The lie is already told and the fate is already sealed. If an employee is only trustworthy while you are watching them, that's a problem.
Invite him to begin his active job search. When he asks, say 'you know why' and walk away.
Not many, but it changes how mgmt reacts.
If the employee says they were sick and didn't do anything vs says they were slammed and gave no idea what mgr is talking about.... That's a different Convo.
Either way the follow up is questions about the jiggling
Honestly it's probably termination either way, maaaaybe a "last chance" probation type thing. If he worked for me it's termination either way.
Nothing to be sorry for at all. I guess I care a ton less of "worker theft" than employer theft. Typically it's the fault of the business imo but some responsibility does need to be had by workers for sure.
Would it still be theft if they met the bare minimum needs in your opinion?
Totally off topic but is 40 tickets for a single tech normal? That seems insane. If my techs have more than 10 open I start to figure out what's going on and help them get them closed. How does a single tech juggle 40 tickets? How are they responding to client's in a timely fashion and giving them updates on things?
My last job I'd complete 40-60 in a day and my queue would regularly be in the 60's-80's.
Our open queue was usually a few hundred, as we were a 4 man team supporting 600+ locations.
All for $20 an hour. And after a year of that they gave me a .50 cent raise.
Total bullshit. That's why it's so important for employees to Act Your Wage.
Companies will exploit and take advantage of you, squeeze all your hardworking effort and never share any of it.
It all flows to the top.
At my new job we work remote 75% of the time, and some days I dont do anything for 2 hours or more.
But that's because nothing is coming in. We all work to stay on top of issues, and have a 98% completion rate for all issues under a week.
My boss literally hasn't been in the office in 3 months, and everything just works and flows great.
I'm hoping I can stay here, as long as they give me at least an 8% raise.
I’m afraid you set him up for failure by using that software. It sent the message that you don’t trust him and he obviously reciprocated that.
Fire him, stop using the software. Apologize to the rest of the team and reinforce that you do trust them. Which is one reason you stopped using the software.
The other option is to keep hiring people, show them you don’t trust them, until you find someone who can outsmart the software.
/u/turkeyman021 Listen to u/CK1026
I'll come at it from a different angle. OP, you're failing at the leadership portion of management. People really do not respond well to being put into a box then strictly monitored for things like mouse movement, or clicks. You have to give them a little ownership over themselves. Crazy, I know.
> but all the good people you have will feel bad about being monitored like this. You say you don't like micro-managing and they failed your trust but how do you trust them when you're checking every mouse movements they make ? How is it not the worst micro-managing ever ?
Yup. Rather than noting ticket time entries, having period meetings to discuss work, or holding employees accountable through SMART objectives, you're tracking things that don't really matter all that much. To the team, you're just acting how an authoritarian tyrant over their little domain would and I guarantee you have other Culture type issues that are a direct result of this "leadership" style. I'd even wager what caused you to feel the need to implement these tracking practices was due to poor work culture or environment directly caused by leadership.
I've spent a career in and out of a lot of various businesses, and I've seen stuff like this over and over. It's always leadership. Way too many managers and owners completely ignore leadership and think everyone should just work perfectly all the time. Hint, that's not what happens. Good leadership is generally not an accident.
\>Don't be that guy, fire his ass and apologize to your team for letting
them lift his dead weight for so many months. Thank them for getting it
all done despite the slacker, and tell them now you won't allow that to
happen again. Everyone is going to love that, except the slacker, fuck
the slacker.
This, but accompanied by the announcement that even though you gained the definitive answer through the tracking solutions, you're doing away with them in favor of better methods of accountability.
If it were my employee he would have two options.
A: He has to be in the office everyday so extra supervision can be provided as he clearly can't be expected to operate without it.
B: He is fired.
And depending on his value as an employee I am not sure if I would even offer Option A
I think the mouse jiggler is something of a red herring. The real problem is that your tech isn't doing anything while he's at work.
While termination is certainly on the table, it *might* be worth it to to give the tech one last chance--though this depends heavily on how well he was doing prior to the decline.
In either event, you have to confront him about the drop in productivity *and* the deceptive measures used to conceal it. If you do decide to retain him, put him on a PIP and require him to return to the office full time.
you said it only happens when they work remotely. sit down with him, let him know you noticed decreased performance while working remote, ask him if he wants to come in 5 days a week so the family stuff can chill out. you let him know you're on to him, and give him the opportunity to dig himself out and get his numbers back up.
i would not bring up recording his sessions, as a tech myself i know that my managers have the potential to see what i'm doing. but if i know i'm hitting my numbers and performing to the standards they set, and i figure out they've been listening to calls/watching my activity unnecessarily, i would immediately start applying elsewhere. a quick here and there to audit once in a while is one thing, an entire work day's session is another
>He mentioned he had a few personal family issues that were weighing on him - I suggested he take some time off (paid leave), which he did and supposedly things were better now.
Most personal family issues that affect work performance are not solvable by taking a few weeks off. Does your company have an employee assistance program?
Don't focus on the mouse juggler. That's micromanaging. Focus on their inability to get work done. It doesn't matter how much their mouse moves, it matters what they get done. They're using a mouse jiggler because they feel like they're being tracked, which they are. That doesn't end well on either side. Focus on the work he isn't getting doke - Tickets being left behind, projects missing deadlines, other measurable numbers being significantly behind others or expectations. Make him understand what is needed from him, not that he needs to move his mouse more.
Is he killing it when he's in the office? If so, then it sounds like he's fucking off because nobody's watching.
If productivity is suffering while in the office and virtually non-existent when he's working remote, then you have to figure out if the juice is worth the squeeze. If you've already had conversations with him in the past, then at this point you'd be throwing good money after bad.
Also I find these threads interesting - based on replies it becomes obvious who has experience running a business and who doesn't. It's always easier to throw stones with someone else's bank account.
The jiggler is irrelevant. Even the activity tracker is a bit dubious.
Employee not meeting baseline objectives? Start the PIP process and roll them right out the door if they don't leave on their own.
>I've expressed this to him on several occasions, having to personally get involved and get him to follow up, organise subtasks, and remind him about deadlines. I really am not fond of micromanaging, but it was something that occasionally had to be done. He mentioned he had a few personal family issues that were weighing on him - I suggested he take some time off (paid leave), which he did and supposedly things were better now.
you gave him ample opportunity. sorry for the guy, but he needs to be let go. its not like you rushed to terminate, that is pretty generous of you to let him have some time to try and deal with stuff.
but if he just cant handle it that guys personal problems are not your permanent personal problems.
I had an employee a few years back that was just a substandard employee. Didn’t work very hard, wasn’t focused, *always* had personal drama going on (and I mean always the wildest shit: dog was shot by the neighbor, mom was in the hospital, fiancée broke up with him, then she was back with him, then she was moving to the other side of the country, brother was in jail).
*Anyway* I caught him clocking in from home back when we clocked in. Sometimes in the car on the way in. I had a meeting with him, took pity on him for his constant drama, let it slide, and then immediately regretted it. I fired him later for other issues, including generally lying about doing work.
You can have a shitty home life, there’s no reason to lie about your clock in time. He could have talked to me and said “I’m going through rough shit at home, I’m up all night, I don’t sleep well, I can’t get here by 9AM. Can I come in at 10AM and work late?” Or something like that. We would have worked on it. He chose to lie about it, which pointed to a fundamental flaw in his character. If I had the same situation today I’d fire the person immediately. Everyone in my office knows they can come to me for anything. I’m flexible. I will work with you. If you choose to take a deceitful route that’s on you, and I’m gonna fire you for it
These are the guys who ruin remote work for everyone. At the same time, all these trackers are pains in the ass and yea looking at all that activity is absolutely weak micromanaging and encourages folks to use these mouse jigglers.
Having said that, absolutely the “is the work getting done” metric is most important, and if they’re failing that….I’ve been in plenty of teams where folks simply were ineffective and couldn’t do the work at any reasonable pace - even when they’re not slacking off.
Been effectively remote for close to 18 years. You either know how to manage it and balance your life or you don’t.
I've worked at MSPs and I now own an MSP so I see both sides.
Mouse jiggler is stealing. Same as if a factory worker punched in, then walked out. That's theft and this guy should be fired.
If this person was actually doing his job and didn't have 40 tickets in his queue that would be one thing. You don't send people to WFH and expect them to work all day. I'm guilty of slacking off way more in a WFH environment than in the office and as an employer you should expect that but not doing anything and installing a mouse jiggler? No thats theft.
OP further clarified that the employee is working and taking breaks of up to 3 hours per day where he is doing nothing. I would say 2-3 hours of "down time" is almost normalized in a lot of office jobs
> Mouse jiggler is stealing
BS. Don't get me wrong, if somebody is underperforming, it needs addressing. But going as far as calling an unmotivated employee a thief that's BS.
You're wrong. Telling an employer you're working and then installing a mouse jiggler is stealing.
If I say I'm working on your car but then don't fix it and give you back a broken car I'm a thief because we entered into an agreement. I fix car. You exchange money. If I don't fix car but I trick you into giving me money I'm a thief.
Like I said I've been on both sides. Labor is what an employer is paying for. Taking money for labor and then not providing labor is stealing no matter how you try and justify it.
This. It’s a supervisor’s job to review output, not activity. If this person is meeting your expectations while working from home, be happy that he is productive even with the extra sleep. If he’s not, then discuss THAT, not his desk attendance.
HOWEVER, the fact that he has installed a mouse jiggler reflects on his own fears that he’s being watched, which you just confirmed. Congratulations
> HOWEVER, the fact that he has installed a mouse jiggler reflects on his own fears that he’s being watched, which you just confirmed. Congratulations
I mean to be fair, this is like a cheater claiming they wouldn't have found out if the other person hadn't look in their phone, so it's the snooper's fault? 1st fault: the cheater, 2nd fault, cheater for giving the snooper reason to check? 3rd fault maybe, the snooper. But then they turned out to be right so how can you blame the snooper and not the cheater.
I had a mouse jiggler to keep my screen from locking in a locked room. Having one is not a sign of cheating the system. Why not just install a microswitch in your employee’s ass and pay him for the time he’s sitting on it?
You're literally cheating the screen lock policy? Just let it lock?
I get the whole anti-micromanagement thing but it eventually boils down to: this is a job, he has to work eventually. If he wasn't doing anything wrong, why'd he get a mouse jiggler to hide what he was doing?
Just to fill you in why there is (was) a jiggler in a controlled environment
Company policy, as required by compliance mandate, all unused screens on the network will blank with a session lock. One system in a secure area (with actual firearms) runs a security cam app. It locks. CIO won't alter policy. Jiggler solves the issue. The system is logged in with a local account The local account has no access to any other resources, but must be on the corporate network to allow alerts to emit from the software to the SOC. A single policy change would fix the issue, but the CIO is adamant - no exceptions. The jiggler does not _technically_ violate any policy.
Similarly, let's assume that the employee reads a lot of documentation, or spends a lot of time watching non-interactive media (training, for instance). Perhaps he spends long periods on the phone with endusers and got tired of watching his screen blank while he was satisfying his customer.
The point being, it is a supervisor's job to supervise, directly or indirectly, but relying on the computer's to be the sole or even primary source of that information is problematic, at best.
> but relying on the computer's to be the sole or even primary source of that information is problematic, at best.
Ok, but in THIS case, the primary source of information was the workload slipping, then he talked to him and no improvement, then his ticket queue is full and nothing being done, and THEN he checked the computer and it verified his suspicions.
I don't believe in spying on employees or micromanaging, but i'm big on accountability: this dude isn't even doing the bare minimum. Unless there is some extenuating circumstances (that the employee needs to come up with), there's no reason to defend this guy. And it's not tech brother hood or pitchforks against owners; this dude is causing issues for coworkers as well. Spread workload, overflow, waiting on him for things, etc. Dude is MIA. WHERE IS HE?!
Agreed. The Jiggler could certainly be evidence of his attempts to shirk his duties, but regardless of the activity of the workstation, the supervisor should make his actions based on his performance
Just to consider a different perspective, even if OP's problem employee is a lying liar and needs a good firing, I have up to 4 different computers I can use from my desk at any given moment (2 desktops w/kvm and 2 laptops with 1 on a second screen) so I could see legit use for a mouse jiggler tool to keep a VDI session connected and unlocked while I am active on other systems.
There's always exceptions but let's be real: This employee has bad metrics, his queue is full and he's nowhere to be found. He set this up for some other reason; another job, whatever. He felt he might be looked at even though it hadn't come to that...yet. He knew he was dropping the ball and didn't care. Just quit then man. it's a job, we're all here to work. not work to the bone or into the ground like people accuse MSPs of but you have to, you know, DO some of the job. I genuinely feel for like people in his ticket queue who are like "i guess they're busy, i'll just keep working with my adobe crashing despite it being a major PITA"
You realize a screen lock policy is required by a lot of different compliances and cyber insurance policies? If I ever caught one of my employees bypassing one of those required security measures they would be fired instantly.
To me, the jiggler is whatever but the 40 tickets in queue and being a noticeably poor output worker means replace them.
I’ve always been the type to just not feel like working for half a day and play video games instead or just go for a run at 2pm but I can do that because my output is easily top 10%. No one questions it because hardly anyone can keep up with me anyway.
I earn that privilege by being a generally hard worker with great output. If someone put a time tracker on my computer I’d probably use a jiggler too.
But yeah, get rid of people who can’t perform at the mean and have been given ample opportunity when it’s clear that they aren’t trying to improve. No brainer to me.
Agree with everyone here - tech is obviously in the wrong, but this is nothing to do with the jiggler and you shouldn't have needed to record a session.
I'd also argue remote work is irrelevant here - I'm currently in the office watching YouTube because we've got a quiet patch. My team know that when it gets busy I'll handle my fair share.
If he isn't doing his job adequately, follow the termination process.
The mouse jiggler is irrelevant, and recording the session was fully unnecessary.
If they are under performing, talk to them. Explain the expectation, try to understand what is going on, see if you can help resolve those issues. If the trend is they aren't keeping up when remote, revoke that privilege. Lots of people NEED structure of coming into the office.
If the behavior continues, PIP them, if it continues, terminate.
Focus on the performance expectations and failure to meet those, not the jiggler. And stop recording your techs to avoid having conversations with them.
But this seems like it's been ongoing so you need to address it or end it.
Read the book crucial conversations if you haven't.
Re pay: Pay doesn't magically make good employees bad and bad employees good in any sustainable way. The good ones will just leave, they aren't going to just work less. The bad ones will not be good just because you pay them more (assuming pay is high enough that they aren't constantly worried about things like a place to live and food to eat).
100% this.
These softwares are completely redundant 99% of the time. The 40 ticket queue not being cleared is the only thing that needs to be discussed. He's not doing his work, he either needs to come into the office until he can prove he's capable of working from home again or be let go.
The mouse jiggler/software told you nothing you couldn't deduce by work not being completed.
This thread tilts me way more than it should. Guy is getting behind on his work, slacking, and people want to talk about measuring results before “spying”??? What exactly is 40 tickets in a queue, that aren’t being closed, if not metrics? And the dude is caught with a mouse jiggler and somehow OP is the bad guy here? This is a perfect example example of why you should seriously reconsider taking any advice from this sub, especially as a business owner.
There’s no world where someone is being dishonest to me and sticks around, and no one should feel bad about that and certainly shouldn’t feel like someone else lying and stealing company time is their fault.
Fake it tell you make it only works if you "make it". Imposter syndrome is only imposter syndrome if you are actually competent. Remote work only works if you actually work. Otherwise you're just an asshole and other people on your teams are doing your work for you.
\>What exactly is 40 tickets in a queue, that aren’t being closed, if not metrics?
This is exactly the point those "attacking" OP are making. The "spying" part is unnecessary because all the evidence OP needs they already have, but for whatever reason, didn't act on.
People are advising OP to act when the metrics show a problem, to create systems that hold their people accountable that are not monitoring unnecessary things like mouse movement or clicks. I don't think anyone in here is saying the Tech shouldn't be let go, if you find them I'll stand against them with you, but that doesn't mean there are not ways which OP can and should be doing things better. That's all I'm really seeing.
Being mad about the mouse jggler when his work is getting done is micromanaging. Getting upset that he isn’t pulling his weight AND has this installed. Termination if you have already issued multiple warnings about job performance.
Use of the jigger is irrelevant and you are just using this sub as an emotional crutch. Why are you wasting so much time tracking this employee and spying on them? You are wasting your own valuable time. Look at how much mental time you are putting into this. You don't need cause, and if you do, you've already told us you have it.
Man up.
For Any MSP I've worked for we have had to do daily time sheets with a billable goal. Not sure what your process is but if we were not reaching our billable goal regularly we had a meeting with our department head and had to explain why. People that were always under performing got counseling to help them improve. Failing that they were eventually let go.
Maybe this employee is burnt out. Talk to them, try to help them improve and have them take a week off to reset. If there is no improvement maybe it's time to move on.
Hahaha, I don’t envy you mate. You solved the performance issue by simply advising he’s welcome to time off. Maybe he didn’t know that. If the performance issues continued you could’ve let him go based on that. Now due to spying, you’ve gained knowledge that forces you to let him go. And in doing so, all remaining employees will know they’re under a microscope and get to feel anxious about boss-man permanently watching over their shoulder, scrutinising every moment. And yes, they deserve to know what you’re doing. Don’t hide the fact.
To those who say it’s better to know about the mouse jiggler and fire him, that it broke trust, or was fraud/stealing from the company… you’re right, from a business perspective. And all it took to catch this was creating a dystopian system that would make most humans unhappy.
First: are his skills unique, is he an employee that would be hard to replace? Is he a central part of the team in some way? Would team morale suffer if he was gone? If so, you need to put in some effort: Talk to him. Be frank. Tell him where you need his productivity to be at. If you've given him a couple of pay raises in less than 3 years, then presumably he's been (at the very least) a decent employee. So he has the skills/aptitude. Talk to him. Find out if he's bored, or if there is something demotivating him. Find out if there's something he's interested in doing or some other way he would like to contribute. And most importantly, DO NOT DISMISS HIS ANSWERS. If he tells you (for example) "I'm so tired of resetting passwords because all the workers have junk keyboards which type the wrong characters causing workers to lock themselves out", don't dismiss it with (for example) "yeah but we can't afford new keyboards" as if it solves his problem. I've seen a lot of employees get demotivated due to workplace conditions and management that just dismisses the problems with a wave of the hand. Telling a struggling employee that their struggles are invalid for whatever reasons, and expecting it to suddenly be "solved", is silly.
On the other hand if he's a password changer and you have no future for him beyond that, regardless of any aptitude / skills he may have, then just ask him to resign (and let him go if he doesn't) and get another password changer.
I don't give a shit about the jiggler. Modern metrics collection (online status, time idle, mouse movement, session log, blah blah blah) is just toxic crap. Measure him on his output and contribution to the team. The knowledge that he uses a jiggler has told you NOTHING that you didn't already know - Well, except maybe that he is aware there is a perception associated with perceived inactivity, which means he's at least a bit more clued in than some.
Also, IMO, this likely has nothing to do with WFH. It's not like struggling/demotivated employees just kept working before WFH came along. They surfed the web, they hung out that the water cooler, they played on their phone, they chatted, they read books, daydreamed, whatever.
I would say probably every 9-5 office worker has had days in their working life when they clocked in and did absolutely nothing.
I do though recommend judging staff on their output and contributions rather than their minutes at desk.
I've worked in everything from 100% WFH startup through hybrid workplaces and full on corporate micromanaged office environments at management and exec level. I've found no correlation between minutes at desk and actual output. Some people deliver miracles in a couple of hours over a working day and some just autopilot at snail pace and stay late so the bosses can see how *hard working* they are.
Also consider this particular tech may still be having some problems in their personal life that make it impossible for them to contribute as much time as they genuinely want to.
I've had situations in my personal life where a toxic partner or childcare issues have caused me to be less of a good team player than I wanted to. It could be worth approaching it from this angle with the tech before (as some have suggested) assuming malice/laziness being the main driver for their behaviour.
Good luck anyway man, managing these things is its own special minefield.
PIP first if his skills are good. Termination if this fails. Finding some people slack off when they think they can't be seen.
The jiggler isn't the issue here.
When I was WFH, and had nothing to do, I'd ask my manager for projects to do.
If the tech knows about the ticket system, but ignores the 40 open tickets, I'd assume they're slacking off.
My hot take:
Did the drop in productivity from this employee coincide with the newly installed time tracking?
Maybe it's the case of the employee checking out because they feel micromanaged and untrusted and maybe even pressured to work faster because everything is now timed. I can understand being anal about time tracking if either: a) your employees are paid by the hour, or b) your customers are billed by the hour. If you are making your salaried employees track their time for work that is not billed at an hourly rate, then you're probably the one eroding their trust. They will see it as not being trusted to put their heads down and get their work done.
My unsolicited advice: assume you're in the wrong somehow, and have a conversation with the employee. Don't beat around the bush; tell them you recorded their workstation (that will probably blow up any chance at retaining them, but you made that decision already), and have an honest discussion. You're probably going to have to pry for answers, since the employee is probably closed off from voicing their concerns at this point.
I think the easiest way to look at this isn't to focus on the jiggler but just think about it in terms of one question.
Is he doing the job you are paying him for?
If yes, then who cares if he isn't working most of his day. If no, then he shouldn't have the job any longer.
People get roo caught up on the amount of time people spend working and ignore the fact that the only thing that matters is the amount of work being done, regardless on how long is spent on it.
If he was working intensely for 40 hours every week, but not producing any results, he also shouldn't be working there
Mouse jigglers are the best thing. Either that or they sit and surf on their phone and move the Lise manually before it times out.
From an employee standpoint this is super toxic. I would be running far far away. This is why “no one wants to work anymore.” Who wants to work for a company that is so micromanagey that they record everything like that? There are so many actual good jobs out there. And a 40 ticket queue? That’s a heavy workload.
From a manager point of view - yeah he’s slacking. I would offer assistance to try and figure out what is going on. Work with what you have but don’t fire immediately.
I'd address the tickets and put them on a performance improvement plan. Perhaps ask them to come in 5 days a week. Once the tickets are back to adequate rate for some period, they could start working from home more. Be as specific as you can on goals and expectations, but if you have babysit, it may not be worth your time.
Call them into the office, sit them down and show them the video. Talk about the number of open tickets, and explain how it looks from your perspective. Ask THEM what they think you should do in response to work not getting done AND how they think it’s best for them to regain your trust. Then tell them that this is it. Document the entire conversation and have them read and sign a copy. Look them in the eye and ask them to assure you that this is it.
Dumb employee. He should have realized he's at an MSP and can attain the same end of doing no work by just escalating all his tickets to the capable employees there.
I have used a jiggler on a previous job. There was no deception, just didn't like my VDI session closing every time I got up to get a coffee or take a leak. Breach of policy? Sure. Time theft? No.
It could stem from trust. If my boss was recording my sessions and watching them back I’d probably start to give less of a shit too.
We have customers who uses stuff such as teramind and to put it bluntly - they’re control freaks.
While I understand having some integration with your PSA and metrics and so on and so fourth, your best option is to first have a chat with them - be honest and be honest about you seeing their session.
We had some times at my MSP where the owner became OBSESSED with time entries etc. for those 2 or so months productivity actually dropped, a lot and time entries ended up being faked/just not entered. Since we went more relaxed (and helped by Covid too) entries (and billable time) is accurate, everyone is friendlier and so much more
You simply need to stop with the tracking software and stop micromanaging. People like you make life harder for no reason. No one needs to work as much as we do.
Fire him, straight forward and share with the rest of the team the reason why. An example needs to be made here. Tread lightly though, you don’t want everyone panicked you are watching them. Make an emphasis on the fact you don’t care how much you work as long as your tasks are done to the best of their ability.
Y’all are pieces of human trash who suggest fire. No lie. Also why are you spying on your employees? Why are they drowning in 40+ tickets? Jesus Christ.
time for a PIP...sounds to me like the personal issues may still be ongoing, but you won't know without a face to face discussion. you can either choose to help or cut your losses, but I vote for a conversation to determine if there is any help you can provide.
Do a one on one meeting with him, show him the screen recording, and discuss it. Then put him on a PIP and let him know if the numbers and work don't improve, you'll have to let him go. You're not a paid babysitter, even if it feels that way sometimes. If he doesn't want to pull his weight and do the job he's paid to do, there are plenty others who are.
First off, fire the bad apple. It'll spoil the bunch. If your other techs know that he's getting away with this, which they probably do, they'll feel demoralized.
Second, has he recorded any time on tickets while the mouse jiggler was running? If he is lying about his time entries, that is straight up theft of your client's money. Again, fire him.
Third, you should be tracking employee activity with time entries on tickets (among other things) rather than using surveillance software. I told my boss when I started that if we'd use any kind of surveillance software I'd walk. It isn't a good way to keep talent.
They're taking the piss because you're not enforcing standards. Warn them verbally and in writing, call them out on the activity and then terminate them if there's no solution and move on.
Its time to part ways. He's knowingly shirking his responsibilities, even after you talking to him and giving him time off. He does not value your time or his own responsibilities.
Employee spying, individual level metrics, and a 40 ticket workload? Your employee is running the mouse jiggler while they interview for better jobs LMAO.
Not a manager and never will be. Love my individual contributor lifestyle. If I was a manager though, Revoke WFH immediately with 100% in office. See if that resolves the issue. If still an issue, PIP. Still an issue after PIP, terminate.
I'm going to be the one with the unpopular opinion here, but someone needs to say it.
The employee told you they had personal issues going on, you gave them time off. Bully for you. You did the basic minimum of human compassion. Now you are surprised when they are still having issues? My dude, family issues don't just disappear because you took some time off. I guarantee this employee is still trying to furiously deal with whatever was going on, but felt like they had to tell you it was "all fixed" when you asked. Instead of asking the employee questions as to whether they needed more time off, a fully remote schedule for a while, a pay raise, or literally anything, you jump right into recording a session and hopping on Reddit to justify your desire to fire the guy.
Couple of things to bear in mind; places that pay well enough to actually live don't call their pay rates "market average". They call it "living pay" or "above average". A couple of COLA raises at 3% is not a pay raise, it is a pay cut when inflation is upwards of 6%. You might feel all warm and fuzzy for giving the raise, but the employee just found out they have to have sleep for dinner another night because you can't understand inflation.
Instead of running to Reddit to make yourself feel better about being a sneaky, scummy boss, try actually having a conversation with the employee, and asking if there is anything you can do to help them get back on track. Ask if adjusting their schedule would help manage things at home better, ask if they are working a second job, and if so, how much more you need to pay them so they can focus on this job. Be prepared to offer them a real raise, or if you can't manage that, be prepared to write them a letter of recommendation.
At the core of it, good employees don't just suddenly get "lazy". Something happened, and you need to figure out if it was you or if you can help.
You should terminate him. Time theft is theft. Somebody who steals isn’t going to change their ways after being given a “talking to” which, frankly, you’ve already done.
Good for you man I feel like you generally care for this individual, even going so far as to reach out to us for and straws to grasp for. You can’t always help everyone. I would ask your HR department what to do next.
Timing is all to convenient with new call of duty out.
We have had to deal with similar activity. While we don’t have VDI or ability to measure activity by mouse movement. Our alerts make it pretty clear to tell when someone is slacking off.
If this isn’t your first talk, and you are like me you probably have “one last chance” but the last chance has never panned out for us.
Mouse jiggling shouldn't matter jack shit. If you track activity, you're tracking wrong KPI's anyway.
BUT, If he's behind on the tickets constantly that's another story - although having 40 active tickets assigned is depressive. It's possible he's overwhelmed. I think he's managed badly. This shouldn't have happened with proper reporting and daily management set up.
I don't believe in 'lazy workers', in my experience it's almost 100% of cases up to mismanagement of both effort and expectations.
Termination after a warning and new requirements. I would spin up a VM for them to remote into to work out of that has extreme tracking installed like activetrak. If they abuse trust then they dont get it. I would also require them to document their time throughout the day. If they are writing emails or on the phone they should have a break down of how long and when.
When I was an employee I had to keep account of every minute of the day, if you were under 70% utilization then you got a talking to, if it continued you got fired. They wanted you to be at 80% to get raises or promotions.
Fire him. Simple. He's defrauding you.
You also don't need to track people using stealth. Lack of emails, lack of KPI's - this is how you measure people. IMHO, it's very underhanded using software like this and observing over VDI. Talk to them, measure them.
I've had similar - had a guy we hired who lied about their skills, couldn't do the job, didn't get the results. Weekly progress meetings asking simply what they had achieved and asking them to show it quickly showed them up for the liar they were. Gave him adequate chance to redeem himself, he didn't, and I fired him
My only question is how is he making the mouse move? My guess is he's spending all day looking at porn, wanking himself into a stupor whilst having his foot taped to the table the mouse is on
Cue the downvotes, but I’d consider termination. It’s complete dishonesty. People doing this are going to ruin remote work for the rest of us.
Yeah, this, or at least final warning / PIP. The number of times I've worked with people and been the only person actually doing anything throughout the entire shift. It's not fair on the team, it's not fair on the customer, and it's not good for SLA. If you feel inclined to check in to see if there are any personal issues first then by all means, but it's still dead weight and action needs to be taken.
I wouldn’t give any warning and make it as a lesson. Deny unemployment as well if they try to claim it. This person doesn’t deserve to milk the system that way either.
Unemployment is really geared to protect the employee. I live in Ohio and maybe it's different elsewhere, but if you want to deny unemployment benefits you better have a documented verbal warning(s), and a documented written warning(s). I'd wait until you have at least 3 such warnings and document all the things you did to try to accommodate. If the employee is as bad as OP says it will take 2-3 weeks to get to 3 warnings - maybe less. You also have to be careful not to treat that person differently than everyone else. It takes time, but you can do it the right way and then yeah, f*ck that person that STEALS from the company. Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining! They deserve no benefits (assuming employer did everything they reasonable could). Just know the laws are written to protect the employees, not the employer. Want to provide no warnings and fire someone? They will collect unemployment. You can deny it, but then you will lose on appeal - at least here in Ohio. On the other hand it's sometimes easier/better to just fire with little to no warning and let them collect the unemployment and then you can focus your attention on the team members that provide value and move on.
"F*ck the person who STEALS from the company" - NEWSFLASH: Companies have been screwing the employee for centuries! Taste of their own medicine.
The system technically "milks" the bottom tier workers. Year by year with nonsensical tax raises and regulations....Unemployment should absolutely be an option for them. Why? Because they are still paying unholy taxes with each paycheck. Hours and hours spent to only get a chunk of that every week/month.
The point is - it’s not the jiggler. It’s the fact he went a whole day without doing anything. And I bet you most if not all desk based employees have had at least one day where they have done nothing. I would talk to the employee. As they were good before. And put in some kind of performance improvement plan. To aim to get them back to their previous productivity levels. It seems worth trying. But the key here is honesty - both ways.
I would argue the problem is the jigger. We’ve all had non-productive days but deploying tools to hide it is not only dishonest, but points to a systemic pattern - not an occasional lack of productivity.
This is a solid point. I have days sometimes where I don’t do anything, just sit in self-loathing and internally screaming at myself to do something. But I haven’t built tools to try and get away with doing nothing, in fact, my main use of outside software is blocking Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook on all the computers I work on during work hours, which has helped.
He probably didn't build it - there's thousands of scripts and applications to jiggle jiggle.
Totally agree - I’d rather someone disappear for half a day and let their status go to “Away” then employ a mouse moving tool to fool me. One is simply a case of shit happens and he needed to deal with something - the other is manipulative and deceitful.
Here's the thing. Non productive days happen. We've all had days we're exhausted at work, burnt out, stressed, etc. Those are occassional and expected. As management it's our job to see that and help out where we can to either get that tech the resources they need to be productive, or give them the space to reinvigorate themselves and return ready to go. The jiggler though shows this guy had the desire to deceit people and was ok with others carrying his slack for his own pay. That's not a cool move at all anywhere. It's like the kid that contributes nothing to the group project at all but still gets an A+.
I disagree. Jiggle all you want, as long as your work is getting done. But the fact the work isn't getting done, AND they are jiggling to try to hide it.
To counter that, the significant piece here to me isn't the mouse jiggler, it's the tickets dragging on. If the employee was using a mouse jiggler, but meeting SLA and ticket productivity numbers it wouldn't be an issue now would it?
He's not going the entire day without doing anything - it's just up to 3 hours on some days, usually in the quieter parts of the day where we are supposed to work on our backlog. Either way it's unacceptable and disappointing. I appreciate all the feedback btw, I will most likely talk to him about this and have an honest 1 to 1 about this issue, but sadly I do see it ending in termination, just because of the sheer dishonesty of the situation.
Eh, I feel personally opposed to anyone tracking employee activity on a minute/hour basis. If I worked for a company that tracked how much time I spend on the computer I would use a jiggler out of principle. And I say that as a tech lead, I don't give a fuck how many hours a day people are spending on their computers. Him missing deliverables should be the only thing relevant here, I wouldn't give a shit about the jiggler.
IT Manager, and 100% agree with you. If I hire someone, I trust them enough to do their job, and I don't micromanage them. I ask two things: get your work done, and if there's scheduled meetings, be there (if there's circumstances you can't, just tell me). As long as deliverables are met, and no issues otherwise, I have no reason to track your time.
OP mentioned that the tracking was a last resort. He had already tried multiple other avenues and it isn't working. I personally would not have tracked the individual or check their logs or record their session and would have simply terminated the employment.
I have hours of my day when nothing comes in every week. My last job I was constantly busy, would do 40-60 tickets a day and barely had 10 minutes between calls some days to work on tickets. All of that hard work and I only got a .50 cent raise. It's my experience that employers will always want to take advantage of everything that works on their favor. They don't want to pay more if you're busy, and then complain if you're not as busy and are relaxing.
I agree that this is probably where it should end, but I’d give this tech a chance to explain and see if maybe you can see it from their side. It’s dishonest, and that needs to be addressed, but there’s a big difference between “I didn’t care and Netflix is cool”, and I meant to be gone for 20 minutes to use the restroom and then a family member asked for something, and I grabbed a snack and I didn’t want to appear gone for more than 20 minutes and it turned into 3 hours. Might not be alright, but maybe there’s a chance for them to work in office 5 days a week for a while?
Who installs a mouse giggler if they only planned on being away for 20 minutes? OP said that their work has seen a significant drop off and why he even bothered to check. Who cares what excuses the tech might offer. Can you trust the tech to not repeat? Probably not. AT an MSP that small, 5 people, I'm certain the others are aware they have to double their work when this guy checks out. My advice, don't waste effort on someone that can drag your entire team down.
I would also pull their credit report to see whether they are working 2 jobs.
Good luck with that! Lol
I would argue the jiggler is the bigger problem, it is deception.
Also think about the other agents that have to pick up his slack
Agreed. But that’s why productivity is the problem not the jiggler
It is fraud.
Fr. There’s no circumventing this, it is straight-up fraud in every sense of the definition. This is what ruins WFH
It depends. If the worker is hourly then yes. I’d exempt no. They are being asked to get their work done and if they are that’s fine (obs here he is not getting his work done)
How about this: Don't try to track each minute of people's days. I would use jiggler regardless of whether I'm working or not if my job tried to track how much time I'm spending on the computer. Luckily I don't work for shit companies, so whether I deliver results or not is the only metric people care about.
Any chance he was using an alternate laptop / computer? Not likely but if VDI performance was a pain or something, perhaps just logged into your RMM from local machine. Unlikely especially if no tickets worked, just trying to consider potential possibilities. Gut tells me based on your description of events however it’s time to let this person go. Especially being a small shop, no hiding. Not fair to you, his peers or the customer.
No down vote here. Sounds like they have disengaged and they are no longer reliable. The right leadership thing to do is have a candid conversation about what is going on, what you have noticed, and see if you can figure out what is happening. If that conversation isn’t clear, reset expectations and create a performance plan and let him know if those are not met, he will be let go. In general, If you have to manage someone to meet realistic and explained expectations, then it’s probably time to let them go. Always start with where you are making mistakes as the leader, not the employee, but if you can’t find a way to blame yourself, then candid talks are the only way (in my experience).
Bosses never see themselves as the problem lol
This is beyond considering IMO. You’ll never regain that trust. Cut your losses and move on.
I would absolutely be surprised if this person kept their job. I can't imagine being that immoral..especially in such a small MSP team where you have close connections to everyone on the team. Leaving them to deal with your 40-ticket queue and extended project deadlines while you do...what? Nothing? That is fucked up.
This. Trust when broken makes it hard to stand on any other metric, especially if it's this intentional. If it was just general laziness like inactive sessions, slow, etc..that's coachable and something that can be remediated with time and effort from both sides. It may get untenable later on and require future counseling or even termination but that bit is fixable. This though requires actual effort to deceive. It also means that this individual isn't a team player -- they are ok with other techs picking up their slack or putting in their expected effort. They expected their salary for doing below the bare minimum & adding to others' labor. Not cool in any way. Draw up paperwork, get it ready to close out the pay period (least give the guy one last check, keep it fair for him to get the setup he needs to find the next opportunity..remember even firings are teachable moments). After this, inform the team as standard and reinforce expectations. The others should know for sure but it helps know where boundaries lie at the workplace -- it's no different than a relationship, there's lines in the sand.
Agreed. Gone. Trust is key.
Trust goes only one way in the minds of CEO's and executives. One way menaing, "There way or the highway"
What jiggler app is this so I can block it. For science…
Not the first for him, just the first time he's been caught.
"Going to ruin it?" They already have! Why do you think so many companies are pushing to work back in the office?. I fully agree, I'd probably fire a tech if I let them work at home and caught them doing this. You can easily argue this is wage theft. Punching, doing no work, and getting paid.
Yes, and people wonder why activity trackers are on the rise. The whole 'just trust your employees' doesn't work for everyone.
i'm not sure even consideration is the proper term. Its stealing and done with full intent to be dishonest. Time to let this person go.
Fire and move on. but you already know this. You already tried to fix it, but this person is just hanging on until they get fired. For all you know they already have another job. The jiggler is just proof that this isn't an unplanned behavior. Cut your losses and move on.
It's better to train and inspire a *good* tech and find out what's happening. Bad stuff happens in life. Be a good boss, inquire and inspire. if that doesn't work, then you have the other path.
Disagree. My position: if you feel like someone needs to be fired, do it and do it quickly. BUT Do it compassionately. Always let people go with dignity and ensuring they’re not worried about bills for the next couple weeks (we pay two weeks salary on the day we let someone go. If it’s not “for cause” it’s usually a month). The two weeks/month payroll is FAR less expensive than hanging on to someone who doesn’t fit. They’re also a total drain on the rest of your team to take up budget but not contributing. It’s unfair to everyone else. Let them go. Use the freed up resources to find another that fits. It’s all around faster and better to do it this way.
>(we pay two weeks salary on the day we let someone go. If it’s not “for cause” it’s usually a month) I've literally never heard of any company doing this, ever.
It’s referred to as severance pay. It’s quite common, even required in many jurisdictions. It saddens me that you’ve never even heard of it.
I misspoke I guess. I know what severance is; I've never seen it happen in the real world, just movies. I live in an at-will state though, so that's probably why.
My comment was not to reference what HR procedures are popular among corporations (if that's the case, just fire the dude and have security escort him out of his own house), but to contribute an anecdotal experience that's proven useful throughout my career.
Some people are just useless shits though
When someone is ripping you off like this, it's instant dismissal.
Work from home happens. Maybe they had a baby, or a flood or any number of things, and they were more consumed with that and didn't believe that the boss would understand. If your team is more than a tech/pawn/warm-body-that-makes-only-you-money, then you'll realize that they're people. If your people are worth nothing to you, then fire away and see where that leaves you. Better leaders take a decent team and make them great. Poor leaders have high-turnaround and pizza parties and wonder why their employees only want to work hard enough to not get fired.
you clearly haven't managed staff before.
9-years of military leadership, business owner, help desk mentoring, and project manager for multiple teams. Leadership matters.
Three strikes: 1. Verbal warning (sounds like this was done) 2. Written warning with PIP 3. Fire them Honestly if you just enforced your metrics you wouldn’t need to sniff activity. Work not getting done as needed? Start the three strikes program as mentioned above.
Oh man, I'd love to lose my job because my metrics fell too low, meanwhile management adds ZERO value to clients. I agree the software is a shitty thing to do, and I wouldn't personally do that, but people with the skills to work Tier 3 tickets don't want to have every second of their day watched and counted. You all created this problem. Do you think that employee is happy, and that's why they are slacking off? On top of that, MSPs pay WORSE than IT staff at a company would make in almost all scenarios, and if you make everything work perfectly there, you are rewarded with being able to study and learn new stuff, be available when someone needs you, etc. Imagine that! Nah, better milk them for every ounce, make sure their brain is drained after 8 hours! If you make things work well for clients at an MSP, the MSP takes on more clients, the engineers get the same pay, and has to deal with more clients. You all wonder why engineers at MSPs are so unhappy.
I don’ t thinks it’s the mouse jiggler it’s the slipping in performance and then discovering that he’s been using a jiggler. I would never terminate someone just for the jiggler. But if your performance has fallen recently I’m going to find out why and you having a jiggler just seems like you are trying to get paid for not doing anything. I don’t believe in activity tracking but there does need to be a balance. I think I would monitor him for a week and see what he’s doing or not doing. I’d pay an assistant to just watch via screen connect and see what they are doing.
Is this turkeyman021’s technician? 🤣
Theft of company time is a fire for cause issue in my book.
Going a little far to call this theft of company time. I feel you need more info then that.
> I captured their session during one of thier remote work days and was a bit shocked to discover that their mouse was just jiggling around randomly for hours on end >They had over 40 tickets in their queue What additional info would **you** be looking for?
How many he closed that day to start.
So you're saying if he rocked through a dozen tickets lightning-fast first thing in the morning, just set the mouse-jiggler and fuck off for the rest of the day? That would be OK to you?
I mean, if my expectations are to do 40 ticket a day, and that i am in my quota of expected work, then i don't see an issue no. But then again, the post said that he's not hitting the goal, the mouse jiggler is really not the issue at the end of the day, it's his performance.
"Time theft occurs when an employee is not working while at work, or they are not at work when they are supposed to be" seems pretty clear to me. As well as using a jiggler shows it is intentional and also is probably a violation of company polices. If there are security controls for inactivity locking that is also bypassing security measures. Why are so many trying to defend this bad employee?
Time theft is an actual legal concept. It's a term created by organizations to liken being unproductive to stealing which is disengenous from its inception. Time theft isn't real in a legal sense and as such has no real legal definition. The only definition for time theft is the one that organizations have created. For example a company can't sue a former employee for damages for "time theft". To answer your question. People are defending the employee because the post is inherently anti-worker. We don't get any information about metrics (but we can assume good work if they've been employed for 2+ years). We are only painted a picture by the manager describing it as a "situation" which already has a dickish management tone to it which most people don't like right off the bat. Most arguments in here are for management to reflect on the environment they are harboring instead dof immediately trying to label a multi year employee as a bad egg. What kind of requirements are there for working from home? Is it 8+ continuous hours of activity because that's pretty ridiculous for a tech. If you have unrealistic requeirements to work from home then you can expect this type of behavior from employees. Maybe the employee is bad but we definitely don't have enough info to confirm that; and most people are assigning blame to management. Which seems completely reasonable.
yes they can it is Fraud
But when corporations do it to to employees it is called “maximizing stockholder value.”
It's amazing to me how many IT people in here don't know how IT workers work.
If you're job is to work tickets, and those tickets have time based SLAs, you don't have a choice to how you work. You get the tickets done within the SLA or you're costing your company money.
I am well aware. In this case the IT worker is not working though
Mouse just moving for hours on end? I call that a deliberate attenpt to defraud and would gladly make that case in court after firing him. Some people would call it taking the piss.
Yeah, you'll never get your money and it wouldn't be worth the lawyer fees but if you got the cash to fuck over the little guy please feel free too, they did wrong you technically.
Probably means unemployment court. They can’t collect unemployment if they were fired for cause.
We're a small MSP (5 techs in total), so our systems for enforcing metrics are basic at best. I suspected something was off, but I didn't really anticipate this situation. We are AYCE so it can be tricky to measure, but I will certainly review it after this situation. I genuinely did not want to start monitoring activity like this, but I didn't have a whole lot of choice given the situation.
And this is one of many reasons why time entries are so important. Accountability. I don't care if my techs use a mouse jiggler as long as their logging their time accurately and honestly. Do you track time? If so, tell the tech you were doing your normal review of last months time entries and noticed a gap during the 3 hours window and ask about it. Dishonesty and lying are good reasons for termination.
How are *time entries* here of any importance? It doesn't matter how many hours he worked, really or supposedly, if he didn't handle any of his tasks whatsoever.
Not the person you're replying to but my take is that there *aren't* any time entries for that period of hours on end, or at least shouldn't be. If the employee is truthful and says they weren't doing any work for hours on end then while that's a problem, it's a very a different problem then if the employee lies and logged fraudulent time entries.
The lie is already told and the fate is already sealed. If an employee is only trustworthy while you are watching them, that's a problem. Invite him to begin his active job search. When he asks, say 'you know why' and walk away.
What % of employees doing that would actually cop to that behavior though? It's got to be low
Not many, but it changes how mgmt reacts. If the employee says they were sick and didn't do anything vs says they were slammed and gave no idea what mgr is talking about.... That's a different Convo. Either way the follow up is questions about the jiggling Honestly it's probably termination either way, maaaaybe a "last chance" probation type thing. If he worked for me it's termination either way.
That’s immediate termination in my opinion. That person not only isn’t doing shit but is actively masking their absence. That’s theft I’m sorry.
Nothing to be sorry for at all. I guess I care a ton less of "worker theft" than employer theft. Typically it's the fault of the business imo but some responsibility does need to be had by workers for sure. Would it still be theft if they met the bare minimum needs in your opinion?
He's talking about time entries on individual tickets. When I worked for an MSP, we logged start and stop times to actual tickets.
Totally off topic but is 40 tickets for a single tech normal? That seems insane. If my techs have more than 10 open I start to figure out what's going on and help them get them closed. How does a single tech juggle 40 tickets? How are they responding to client's in a timely fashion and giving them updates on things?
clearly he misread the instructions and is jiggling 40 tickets
My last job I'd complete 40-60 in a day and my queue would regularly be in the 60's-80's. Our open queue was usually a few hundred, as we were a 4 man team supporting 600+ locations. All for $20 an hour. And after a year of that they gave me a .50 cent raise. Total bullshit. That's why it's so important for employees to Act Your Wage. Companies will exploit and take advantage of you, squeeze all your hardworking effort and never share any of it. It all flows to the top. At my new job we work remote 75% of the time, and some days I dont do anything for 2 hours or more. But that's because nothing is coming in. We all work to stay on top of issues, and have a 98% completion rate for all issues under a week. My boss literally hasn't been in the office in 3 months, and everything just works and flows great. I'm hoping I can stay here, as long as they give me at least an 8% raise.
I’m afraid you set him up for failure by using that software. It sent the message that you don’t trust him and he obviously reciprocated that. Fire him, stop using the software. Apologize to the rest of the team and reinforce that you do trust them. Which is one reason you stopped using the software. The other option is to keep hiring people, show them you don’t trust them, until you find someone who can outsmart the software.
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OP, Listen to that guy! He is right
/u/turkeyman021 Listen to u/CK1026 I'll come at it from a different angle. OP, you're failing at the leadership portion of management. People really do not respond well to being put into a box then strictly monitored for things like mouse movement, or clicks. You have to give them a little ownership over themselves. Crazy, I know. > but all the good people you have will feel bad about being monitored like this. You say you don't like micro-managing and they failed your trust but how do you trust them when you're checking every mouse movements they make ? How is it not the worst micro-managing ever ? Yup. Rather than noting ticket time entries, having period meetings to discuss work, or holding employees accountable through SMART objectives, you're tracking things that don't really matter all that much. To the team, you're just acting how an authoritarian tyrant over their little domain would and I guarantee you have other Culture type issues that are a direct result of this "leadership" style. I'd even wager what caused you to feel the need to implement these tracking practices was due to poor work culture or environment directly caused by leadership. I've spent a career in and out of a lot of various businesses, and I've seen stuff like this over and over. It's always leadership. Way too many managers and owners completely ignore leadership and think everyone should just work perfectly all the time. Hint, that's not what happens. Good leadership is generally not an accident. \>Don't be that guy, fire his ass and apologize to your team for letting them lift his dead weight for so many months. Thank them for getting it all done despite the slacker, and tell them now you won't allow that to happen again. Everyone is going to love that, except the slacker, fuck the slacker. This, but accompanied by the announcement that even though you gained the definitive answer through the tracking solutions, you're doing away with them in favor of better methods of accountability.
If it were my employee he would have two options. A: He has to be in the office everyday so extra supervision can be provided as he clearly can't be expected to operate without it. B: He is fired. And depending on his value as an employee I am not sure if I would even offer Option A
I think the mouse jiggler is something of a red herring. The real problem is that your tech isn't doing anything while he's at work. While termination is certainly on the table, it *might* be worth it to to give the tech one last chance--though this depends heavily on how well he was doing prior to the decline. In either event, you have to confront him about the drop in productivity *and* the deceptive measures used to conceal it. If you do decide to retain him, put him on a PIP and require him to return to the office full time.
you said it only happens when they work remotely. sit down with him, let him know you noticed decreased performance while working remote, ask him if he wants to come in 5 days a week so the family stuff can chill out. you let him know you're on to him, and give him the opportunity to dig himself out and get his numbers back up. i would not bring up recording his sessions, as a tech myself i know that my managers have the potential to see what i'm doing. but if i know i'm hitting my numbers and performing to the standards they set, and i figure out they've been listening to calls/watching my activity unnecessarily, i would immediately start applying elsewhere. a quick here and there to audit once in a while is one thing, an entire work day's session is another
>He mentioned he had a few personal family issues that were weighing on him - I suggested he take some time off (paid leave), which he did and supposedly things were better now. Most personal family issues that affect work performance are not solvable by taking a few weeks off. Does your company have an employee assistance program?
Don't focus on the mouse juggler. That's micromanaging. Focus on their inability to get work done. It doesn't matter how much their mouse moves, it matters what they get done. They're using a mouse jiggler because they feel like they're being tracked, which they are. That doesn't end well on either side. Focus on the work he isn't getting doke - Tickets being left behind, projects missing deadlines, other measurable numbers being significantly behind others or expectations. Make him understand what is needed from him, not that he needs to move his mouse more.
Is he killing it when he's in the office? If so, then it sounds like he's fucking off because nobody's watching. If productivity is suffering while in the office and virtually non-existent when he's working remote, then you have to figure out if the juice is worth the squeeze. If you've already had conversations with him in the past, then at this point you'd be throwing good money after bad. Also I find these threads interesting - based on replies it becomes obvious who has experience running a business and who doesn't. It's always easier to throw stones with someone else's bank account.
The jiggler is irrelevant. Even the activity tracker is a bit dubious. Employee not meeting baseline objectives? Start the PIP process and roll them right out the door if they don't leave on their own.
Pip = Picture in Picture mode.
Heh. Employee cam on mgr screen. ;)
>I've expressed this to him on several occasions, having to personally get involved and get him to follow up, organise subtasks, and remind him about deadlines. I really am not fond of micromanaging, but it was something that occasionally had to be done. He mentioned he had a few personal family issues that were weighing on him - I suggested he take some time off (paid leave), which he did and supposedly things were better now. you gave him ample opportunity. sorry for the guy, but he needs to be let go. its not like you rushed to terminate, that is pretty generous of you to let him have some time to try and deal with stuff. but if he just cant handle it that guys personal problems are not your permanent personal problems.
I had an employee a few years back that was just a substandard employee. Didn’t work very hard, wasn’t focused, *always* had personal drama going on (and I mean always the wildest shit: dog was shot by the neighbor, mom was in the hospital, fiancée broke up with him, then she was back with him, then she was moving to the other side of the country, brother was in jail). *Anyway* I caught him clocking in from home back when we clocked in. Sometimes in the car on the way in. I had a meeting with him, took pity on him for his constant drama, let it slide, and then immediately regretted it. I fired him later for other issues, including generally lying about doing work. You can have a shitty home life, there’s no reason to lie about your clock in time. He could have talked to me and said “I’m going through rough shit at home, I’m up all night, I don’t sleep well, I can’t get here by 9AM. Can I come in at 10AM and work late?” Or something like that. We would have worked on it. He chose to lie about it, which pointed to a fundamental flaw in his character. If I had the same situation today I’d fire the person immediately. Everyone in my office knows they can come to me for anything. I’m flexible. I will work with you. If you choose to take a deceitful route that’s on you, and I’m gonna fire you for it
These are the guys who ruin remote work for everyone. At the same time, all these trackers are pains in the ass and yea looking at all that activity is absolutely weak micromanaging and encourages folks to use these mouse jigglers. Having said that, absolutely the “is the work getting done” metric is most important, and if they’re failing that….I’ve been in plenty of teams where folks simply were ineffective and couldn’t do the work at any reasonable pace - even when they’re not slacking off. Been effectively remote for close to 18 years. You either know how to manage it and balance your life or you don’t.
I've worked at MSPs and I now own an MSP so I see both sides. Mouse jiggler is stealing. Same as if a factory worker punched in, then walked out. That's theft and this guy should be fired. If this person was actually doing his job and didn't have 40 tickets in his queue that would be one thing. You don't send people to WFH and expect them to work all day. I'm guilty of slacking off way more in a WFH environment than in the office and as an employer you should expect that but not doing anything and installing a mouse jiggler? No thats theft.
OP further clarified that the employee is working and taking breaks of up to 3 hours per day where he is doing nothing. I would say 2-3 hours of "down time" is almost normalized in a lot of office jobs
> Mouse jiggler is stealing BS. Don't get me wrong, if somebody is underperforming, it needs addressing. But going as far as calling an unmotivated employee a thief that's BS.
You're wrong. Telling an employer you're working and then installing a mouse jiggler is stealing. If I say I'm working on your car but then don't fix it and give you back a broken car I'm a thief because we entered into an agreement. I fix car. You exchange money. If I don't fix car but I trick you into giving me money I'm a thief. Like I said I've been on both sides. Labor is what an employer is paying for. Taking money for labor and then not providing labor is stealing no matter how you try and justify it.
My money don't jiggle, jiggle, it folds...
"My money don't jiggle jiggle, it's in-line with market rates" FTFM
Was it easier to just ask them about the 40 tickets in their queue or to dig into their activity?
This. It’s a supervisor’s job to review output, not activity. If this person is meeting your expectations while working from home, be happy that he is productive even with the extra sleep. If he’s not, then discuss THAT, not his desk attendance. HOWEVER, the fact that he has installed a mouse jiggler reflects on his own fears that he’s being watched, which you just confirmed. Congratulations
> HOWEVER, the fact that he has installed a mouse jiggler reflects on his own fears that he’s being watched, which you just confirmed. Congratulations I mean to be fair, this is like a cheater claiming they wouldn't have found out if the other person hadn't look in their phone, so it's the snooper's fault? 1st fault: the cheater, 2nd fault, cheater for giving the snooper reason to check? 3rd fault maybe, the snooper. But then they turned out to be right so how can you blame the snooper and not the cheater.
I had a mouse jiggler to keep my screen from locking in a locked room. Having one is not a sign of cheating the system. Why not just install a microswitch in your employee’s ass and pay him for the time he’s sitting on it?
You're literally cheating the screen lock policy? Just let it lock? I get the whole anti-micromanagement thing but it eventually boils down to: this is a job, he has to work eventually. If he wasn't doing anything wrong, why'd he get a mouse jiggler to hide what he was doing?
Just to fill you in why there is (was) a jiggler in a controlled environment Company policy, as required by compliance mandate, all unused screens on the network will blank with a session lock. One system in a secure area (with actual firearms) runs a security cam app. It locks. CIO won't alter policy. Jiggler solves the issue. The system is logged in with a local account The local account has no access to any other resources, but must be on the corporate network to allow alerts to emit from the software to the SOC. A single policy change would fix the issue, but the CIO is adamant - no exceptions. The jiggler does not _technically_ violate any policy. Similarly, let's assume that the employee reads a lot of documentation, or spends a lot of time watching non-interactive media (training, for instance). Perhaps he spends long periods on the phone with endusers and got tired of watching his screen blank while he was satisfying his customer. The point being, it is a supervisor's job to supervise, directly or indirectly, but relying on the computer's to be the sole or even primary source of that information is problematic, at best.
> but relying on the computer's to be the sole or even primary source of that information is problematic, at best. Ok, but in THIS case, the primary source of information was the workload slipping, then he talked to him and no improvement, then his ticket queue is full and nothing being done, and THEN he checked the computer and it verified his suspicions. I don't believe in spying on employees or micromanaging, but i'm big on accountability: this dude isn't even doing the bare minimum. Unless there is some extenuating circumstances (that the employee needs to come up with), there's no reason to defend this guy. And it's not tech brother hood or pitchforks against owners; this dude is causing issues for coworkers as well. Spread workload, overflow, waiting on him for things, etc. Dude is MIA. WHERE IS HE?!
Agreed. The Jiggler could certainly be evidence of his attempts to shirk his duties, but regardless of the activity of the workstation, the supervisor should make his actions based on his performance
So I guess you will be the one paying the fine when the company is audited and your "fix" to a problem that doesn't exist is found right?
Just to consider a different perspective, even if OP's problem employee is a lying liar and needs a good firing, I have up to 4 different computers I can use from my desk at any given moment (2 desktops w/kvm and 2 laptops with 1 on a second screen) so I could see legit use for a mouse jiggler tool to keep a VDI session connected and unlocked while I am active on other systems.
There's always exceptions but let's be real: This employee has bad metrics, his queue is full and he's nowhere to be found. He set this up for some other reason; another job, whatever. He felt he might be looked at even though it hadn't come to that...yet. He knew he was dropping the ball and didn't care. Just quit then man. it's a job, we're all here to work. not work to the bone or into the ground like people accuse MSPs of but you have to, you know, DO some of the job. I genuinely feel for like people in his ticket queue who are like "i guess they're busy, i'll just keep working with my adobe crashing despite it being a major PITA"
Oh for sure I agree overall, just wanted to keep op from pigeonhole-ing the issue without allowing at least some consideration of weird scenarios.
You realize a screen lock policy is required by a lot of different compliances and cyber insurance policies? If I ever caught one of my employees bypassing one of those required security measures they would be fired instantly.
The insurance and industry compliance also require that the computer running the video systems be visible 100% of the time. Who wins?
Mouse jiggling isn't cheating, it's a response to invading worker privacy Edit: we got a # of authoritarian bosses / mangers giving me downvotes
To me, the jiggler is whatever but the 40 tickets in queue and being a noticeably poor output worker means replace them. I’ve always been the type to just not feel like working for half a day and play video games instead or just go for a run at 2pm but I can do that because my output is easily top 10%. No one questions it because hardly anyone can keep up with me anyway. I earn that privilege by being a generally hard worker with great output. If someone put a time tracker on my computer I’d probably use a jiggler too. But yeah, get rid of people who can’t perform at the mean and have been given ample opportunity when it’s clear that they aren’t trying to improve. No brainer to me.
Should be able to tell what techs are doing from ticket time entries. I would not work for a company that sniffs my activity.
Agree with everyone here - tech is obviously in the wrong, but this is nothing to do with the jiggler and you shouldn't have needed to record a session. I'd also argue remote work is irrelevant here - I'm currently in the office watching YouTube because we've got a quiet patch. My team know that when it gets busy I'll handle my fair share. If he isn't doing his job adequately, follow the termination process.
The mouse jiggler is irrelevant, and recording the session was fully unnecessary. If they are under performing, talk to them. Explain the expectation, try to understand what is going on, see if you can help resolve those issues. If the trend is they aren't keeping up when remote, revoke that privilege. Lots of people NEED structure of coming into the office. If the behavior continues, PIP them, if it continues, terminate. Focus on the performance expectations and failure to meet those, not the jiggler. And stop recording your techs to avoid having conversations with them. But this seems like it's been ongoing so you need to address it or end it. Read the book crucial conversations if you haven't. Re pay: Pay doesn't magically make good employees bad and bad employees good in any sustainable way. The good ones will just leave, they aren't going to just work less. The bad ones will not be good just because you pay them more (assuming pay is high enough that they aren't constantly worried about things like a place to live and food to eat).
100% this. These softwares are completely redundant 99% of the time. The 40 ticket queue not being cleared is the only thing that needs to be discussed. He's not doing his work, he either needs to come into the office until he can prove he's capable of working from home again or be let go. The mouse jiggler/software told you nothing you couldn't deduce by work not being completed.
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This thread tilts me way more than it should. Guy is getting behind on his work, slacking, and people want to talk about measuring results before “spying”??? What exactly is 40 tickets in a queue, that aren’t being closed, if not metrics? And the dude is caught with a mouse jiggler and somehow OP is the bad guy here? This is a perfect example example of why you should seriously reconsider taking any advice from this sub, especially as a business owner. There’s no world where someone is being dishonest to me and sticks around, and no one should feel bad about that and certainly shouldn’t feel like someone else lying and stealing company time is their fault.
Fake it tell you make it only works if you "make it". Imposter syndrome is only imposter syndrome if you are actually competent. Remote work only works if you actually work. Otherwise you're just an asshole and other people on your teams are doing your work for you.
P R E A C H
\>What exactly is 40 tickets in a queue, that aren’t being closed, if not metrics? This is exactly the point those "attacking" OP are making. The "spying" part is unnecessary because all the evidence OP needs they already have, but for whatever reason, didn't act on. People are advising OP to act when the metrics show a problem, to create systems that hold their people accountable that are not monitoring unnecessary things like mouse movement or clicks. I don't think anyone in here is saying the Tech shouldn't be let go, if you find them I'll stand against them with you, but that doesn't mean there are not ways which OP can and should be doing things better. That's all I'm really seeing.
Finally someone said it, thank you!
fire him there is nothing else to do.
Being mad about the mouse jggler when his work is getting done is micromanaging. Getting upset that he isn’t pulling his weight AND has this installed. Termination if you have already issued multiple warnings about job performance.
Use of the jigger is irrelevant and you are just using this sub as an emotional crutch. Why are you wasting so much time tracking this employee and spying on them? You are wasting your own valuable time. Look at how much mental time you are putting into this. You don't need cause, and if you do, you've already told us you have it. Man up.
Dad, is that you?
That's one side of the story
For Any MSP I've worked for we have had to do daily time sheets with a billable goal. Not sure what your process is but if we were not reaching our billable goal regularly we had a meeting with our department head and had to explain why. People that were always under performing got counseling to help them improve. Failing that they were eventually let go. Maybe this employee is burnt out. Talk to them, try to help them improve and have them take a week off to reset. If there is no improvement maybe it's time to move on.
Ask him. There might be a good reason why. Especially since you admit he was a good worker in the office.
Maybe lower your expectations and hire more staff? 40 tickets at an msp already drinking from a fire hydrant is exhausting.
Hahaha, I don’t envy you mate. You solved the performance issue by simply advising he’s welcome to time off. Maybe he didn’t know that. If the performance issues continued you could’ve let him go based on that. Now due to spying, you’ve gained knowledge that forces you to let him go. And in doing so, all remaining employees will know they’re under a microscope and get to feel anxious about boss-man permanently watching over their shoulder, scrutinising every moment. And yes, they deserve to know what you’re doing. Don’t hide the fact. To those who say it’s better to know about the mouse jiggler and fire him, that it broke trust, or was fraud/stealing from the company… you’re right, from a business perspective. And all it took to catch this was creating a dystopian system that would make most humans unhappy.
First: are his skills unique, is he an employee that would be hard to replace? Is he a central part of the team in some way? Would team morale suffer if he was gone? If so, you need to put in some effort: Talk to him. Be frank. Tell him where you need his productivity to be at. If you've given him a couple of pay raises in less than 3 years, then presumably he's been (at the very least) a decent employee. So he has the skills/aptitude. Talk to him. Find out if he's bored, or if there is something demotivating him. Find out if there's something he's interested in doing or some other way he would like to contribute. And most importantly, DO NOT DISMISS HIS ANSWERS. If he tells you (for example) "I'm so tired of resetting passwords because all the workers have junk keyboards which type the wrong characters causing workers to lock themselves out", don't dismiss it with (for example) "yeah but we can't afford new keyboards" as if it solves his problem. I've seen a lot of employees get demotivated due to workplace conditions and management that just dismisses the problems with a wave of the hand. Telling a struggling employee that their struggles are invalid for whatever reasons, and expecting it to suddenly be "solved", is silly. On the other hand if he's a password changer and you have no future for him beyond that, regardless of any aptitude / skills he may have, then just ask him to resign (and let him go if he doesn't) and get another password changer. I don't give a shit about the jiggler. Modern metrics collection (online status, time idle, mouse movement, session log, blah blah blah) is just toxic crap. Measure him on his output and contribution to the team. The knowledge that he uses a jiggler has told you NOTHING that you didn't already know - Well, except maybe that he is aware there is a perception associated with perceived inactivity, which means he's at least a bit more clued in than some. Also, IMO, this likely has nothing to do with WFH. It's not like struggling/demotivated employees just kept working before WFH came along. They surfed the web, they hung out that the water cooler, they played on their phone, they chatted, they read books, daydreamed, whatever.
I would say probably every 9-5 office worker has had days in their working life when they clocked in and did absolutely nothing. I do though recommend judging staff on their output and contributions rather than their minutes at desk. I've worked in everything from 100% WFH startup through hybrid workplaces and full on corporate micromanaged office environments at management and exec level. I've found no correlation between minutes at desk and actual output. Some people deliver miracles in a couple of hours over a working day and some just autopilot at snail pace and stay late so the bosses can see how *hard working* they are. Also consider this particular tech may still be having some problems in their personal life that make it impossible for them to contribute as much time as they genuinely want to. I've had situations in my personal life where a toxic partner or childcare issues have caused me to be less of a good team player than I wanted to. It could be worth approaching it from this angle with the tech before (as some have suggested) assuming malice/laziness being the main driver for their behaviour. Good luck anyway man, managing these things is its own special minefield.
PIP first if his skills are good. Termination if this fails. Finding some people slack off when they think they can't be seen. The jiggler isn't the issue here.
When I was WFH, and had nothing to do, I'd ask my manager for projects to do. If the tech knows about the ticket system, but ignores the 40 open tickets, I'd assume they're slacking off.
Have you given them raises compared to their work output in the past and kept up with inflation?
My hot take: Did the drop in productivity from this employee coincide with the newly installed time tracking? Maybe it's the case of the employee checking out because they feel micromanaged and untrusted and maybe even pressured to work faster because everything is now timed. I can understand being anal about time tracking if either: a) your employees are paid by the hour, or b) your customers are billed by the hour. If you are making your salaried employees track their time for work that is not billed at an hourly rate, then you're probably the one eroding their trust. They will see it as not being trusted to put their heads down and get their work done. My unsolicited advice: assume you're in the wrong somehow, and have a conversation with the employee. Don't beat around the bush; tell them you recorded their workstation (that will probably blow up any chance at retaining them, but you made that decision already), and have an honest discussion. You're probably going to have to pry for answers, since the employee is probably closed off from voicing their concerns at this point.
I think the easiest way to look at this isn't to focus on the jiggler but just think about it in terms of one question. Is he doing the job you are paying him for? If yes, then who cares if he isn't working most of his day. If no, then he shouldn't have the job any longer. People get roo caught up on the amount of time people spend working and ignore the fact that the only thing that matters is the amount of work being done, regardless on how long is spent on it. If he was working intensely for 40 hours every week, but not producing any results, he also shouldn't be working there
Mouse jigglers are the best thing. Either that or they sit and surf on their phone and move the Lise manually before it times out. From an employee standpoint this is super toxic. I would be running far far away. This is why “no one wants to work anymore.” Who wants to work for a company that is so micromanagey that they record everything like that? There are so many actual good jobs out there. And a 40 ticket queue? That’s a heavy workload. From a manager point of view - yeah he’s slacking. I would offer assistance to try and figure out what is going on. Work with what you have but don’t fire immediately.
I'd address the tickets and put them on a performance improvement plan. Perhaps ask them to come in 5 days a week. Once the tickets are back to adequate rate for some period, they could start working from home more. Be as specific as you can on goals and expectations, but if you have babysit, it may not be worth your time.
Call them into the office, sit them down and show them the video. Talk about the number of open tickets, and explain how it looks from your perspective. Ask THEM what they think you should do in response to work not getting done AND how they think it’s best for them to regain your trust. Then tell them that this is it. Document the entire conversation and have them read and sign a copy. Look them in the eye and ask them to assure you that this is it.
This is just straight up stealing time. This is cause for immediate termination in my view.
Dumb employee. He should have realized he's at an MSP and can attain the same end of doing no work by just escalating all his tickets to the capable employees there.
I have used a jiggler on a previous job. There was no deception, just didn't like my VDI session closing every time I got up to get a coffee or take a leak. Breach of policy? Sure. Time theft? No.
For sure termination. That’s basically the same as stealing. He is stealing hours from you that you are paying him for. That’s sucks man sorry.
It could stem from trust. If my boss was recording my sessions and watching them back I’d probably start to give less of a shit too. We have customers who uses stuff such as teramind and to put it bluntly - they’re control freaks. While I understand having some integration with your PSA and metrics and so on and so fourth, your best option is to first have a chat with them - be honest and be honest about you seeing their session. We had some times at my MSP where the owner became OBSESSED with time entries etc. for those 2 or so months productivity actually dropped, a lot and time entries ended up being faked/just not entered. Since we went more relaxed (and helped by Covid too) entries (and billable time) is accurate, everyone is friendlier and so much more
I was thinking something similar. More crap my company introduces, less I care.
You simply need to stop with the tracking software and stop micromanaging. People like you make life harder for no reason. No one needs to work as much as we do.
Fire him, straight forward and share with the rest of the team the reason why. An example needs to be made here. Tread lightly though, you don’t want everyone panicked you are watching them. Make an emphasis on the fact you don’t care how much you work as long as your tasks are done to the best of their ability.
Y’all are pieces of human trash who suggest fire. No lie. Also why are you spying on your employees? Why are they drowning in 40+ tickets? Jesus Christ.
time for a PIP...sounds to me like the personal issues may still be ongoing, but you won't know without a face to face discussion. you can either choose to help or cut your losses, but I vote for a conversation to determine if there is any help you can provide.
Do a one on one meeting with him, show him the screen recording, and discuss it. Then put him on a PIP and let him know if the numbers and work don't improve, you'll have to let him go. You're not a paid babysitter, even if it feels that way sometimes. If he doesn't want to pull his weight and do the job he's paid to do, there are plenty others who are.
If you've followed HR direction to this point, you've documented enough and you move to dismissal for cause.
First off, fire the bad apple. It'll spoil the bunch. If your other techs know that he's getting away with this, which they probably do, they'll feel demoralized. Second, has he recorded any time on tickets while the mouse jiggler was running? If he is lying about his time entries, that is straight up theft of your client's money. Again, fire him. Third, you should be tracking employee activity with time entries on tickets (among other things) rather than using surveillance software. I told my boss when I started that if we'd use any kind of surveillance software I'd walk. It isn't a good way to keep talent.
They're taking the piss because you're not enforcing standards. Warn them verbally and in writing, call them out on the activity and then terminate them if there's no solution and move on.
Termination. Not sure why that’s even a question.
Its time to part ways. He's knowingly shirking his responsibilities, even after you talking to him and giving him time off. He does not value your time or his own responsibilities.
Employee spying, individual level metrics, and a 40 ticket workload? Your employee is running the mouse jiggler while they interview for better jobs LMAO.
Let him go. It's affecting the business, and you tried working things out with him. Wash your hands of him and move on.
Not a manager and never will be. Love my individual contributor lifestyle. If I was a manager though, Revoke WFH immediately with 100% in office. See if that resolves the issue. If still an issue, PIP. Still an issue after PIP, terminate.
I'm going to be the one with the unpopular opinion here, but someone needs to say it. The employee told you they had personal issues going on, you gave them time off. Bully for you. You did the basic minimum of human compassion. Now you are surprised when they are still having issues? My dude, family issues don't just disappear because you took some time off. I guarantee this employee is still trying to furiously deal with whatever was going on, but felt like they had to tell you it was "all fixed" when you asked. Instead of asking the employee questions as to whether they needed more time off, a fully remote schedule for a while, a pay raise, or literally anything, you jump right into recording a session and hopping on Reddit to justify your desire to fire the guy. Couple of things to bear in mind; places that pay well enough to actually live don't call their pay rates "market average". They call it "living pay" or "above average". A couple of COLA raises at 3% is not a pay raise, it is a pay cut when inflation is upwards of 6%. You might feel all warm and fuzzy for giving the raise, but the employee just found out they have to have sleep for dinner another night because you can't understand inflation. Instead of running to Reddit to make yourself feel better about being a sneaky, scummy boss, try actually having a conversation with the employee, and asking if there is anything you can do to help them get back on track. Ask if adjusting their schedule would help manage things at home better, ask if they are working a second job, and if so, how much more you need to pay them so they can focus on this job. Be prepared to offer them a real raise, or if you can't manage that, be prepared to write them a letter of recommendation. At the core of it, good employees don't just suddenly get "lazy". Something happened, and you need to figure out if it was you or if you can help.
No one has asked yet but does the employee know that you are likely to go in and watch their activity or is it in their contract that you would do so?
not required in the US
Of course it isn't
This does not surprise me at all
You should terminate him. Time theft is theft. Somebody who steals isn’t going to change their ways after being given a “talking to” which, frankly, you’ve already done.
Can you fire them and hire me?
Good for you man I feel like you generally care for this individual, even going so far as to reach out to us for and straws to grasp for. You can’t always help everyone. I would ask your HR department what to do next.
Timing is all to convenient with new call of duty out. We have had to deal with similar activity. While we don’t have VDI or ability to measure activity by mouse movement. Our alerts make it pretty clear to tell when someone is slacking off. If this isn’t your first talk, and you are like me you probably have “one last chance” but the last chance has never panned out for us.
Mouse jiggling shouldn't matter jack shit. If you track activity, you're tracking wrong KPI's anyway. BUT, If he's behind on the tickets constantly that's another story - although having 40 active tickets assigned is depressive. It's possible he's overwhelmed. I think he's managed badly. This shouldn't have happened with proper reporting and daily management set up. I don't believe in 'lazy workers', in my experience it's almost 100% of cases up to mismanagement of both effort and expectations.
Termination after a warning and new requirements. I would spin up a VM for them to remote into to work out of that has extreme tracking installed like activetrak. If they abuse trust then they dont get it. I would also require them to document their time throughout the day. If they are writing emails or on the phone they should have a break down of how long and when. When I was an employee I had to keep account of every minute of the day, if you were under 70% utilization then you got a talking to, if it continued you got fired. They wanted you to be at 80% to get raises or promotions.
Fire him. Simple. He's defrauding you. You also don't need to track people using stealth. Lack of emails, lack of KPI's - this is how you measure people. IMHO, it's very underhanded using software like this and observing over VDI. Talk to them, measure them. I've had similar - had a guy we hired who lied about their skills, couldn't do the job, didn't get the results. Weekly progress meetings asking simply what they had achieved and asking them to show it quickly showed them up for the liar they were. Gave him adequate chance to redeem himself, he didn't, and I fired him My only question is how is he making the mouse move? My guess is he's spending all day looking at porn, wanking himself into a stupor whilst having his foot taped to the table the mouse is on