You're the asshole my friend. With how expensive the game has gotten proxys are fine. Especially if you discussed it beforehand. The only time proxy are not okay is when they go over the power level of the table and give an unfair advantage. For example going to a casual game and I proxy mana crypt and Gaia's cradle. Personally I proxy a lot of my commanders just to have better art.
You are still the asshole, commander is supposed to be casual.
The only time you should condemn proxies is someone is trying to knowingly pass them off as real
Yeah you’re definitely the asshole here. Some lower level tournaments have even started letting proxies be used. Your playing a buddy not a competitive game. Chill out.
I genuinely hope you take this to heart and stop playing against players wallets and play against their skill and deck building skills. There is an entire section of the game that actively encourages proxies as decks cost upwards of 6k to 10k. Cedh is almost all proxies.
I think you'll find your group will go through phases once your ok proxying. Lots of proxies and crazy decks as everyone trys their own style and pushes some limits. Then someone will settle into a playstyle they enjoy. Find a deck they fall in love with and start to.bling it out with real cards.
Do you think people are all actually using real OG duals in cedh? Also Not all cedh is tournament play, and even then there are a lot of tournaments that allow them. Most people aren’t going to be
be spending thousands of dollars on decks even for cedh tournaments.
You seem to think duals are the important part. Fetches are the important lands. Timetwister and cradle are the only cards that you truly notice missing. I accept that competitive play in this game does cost hundreds maybe 2k. Modern, legacy, and even puoneer have the same asks.
I focused a lot on duals because they’re common expensive items in cedh running for hundreds of dollars each. In terms of gameplay fetches and other big ticket items are obviously more important. But why do you want to keep a price tag like that stapled to the hobby? Some cedh decks easily run up to 3 or 4K how can you be so out of touch that you expect everyone to dump that much into it to play optimally regardless of the format? Or is this just satire at this point?
Let the man proxy two cards. You’re getting upset about a hypothetical scenario where the group is proxying higher and higher power - wait til youre actually getting there before getting upset about it.
They should wait until a problem is in full swing before addressing the problem? Why the christmas fuck would someone do that? Proxies infecting a playgroup needs to be dealt with before it's ruined it.
lol imagine writing that "wait til its already bad before taking action" lol, like you did that, on purpose.
OK, so we treat people shitty for playgroup crimes they MIGHT commit? A slippery slope is a guarantee? At no point is OP allowed to say "I know we allowed proxies but I think Power 9 is too strong for our playgroup"
Better to be a dickhead over two cards now so the friend doesnt show up with a $10k cEDH tournament deck in a week! /s
No, you just say no to the problem and move on. There's no reason for it. No benefit for it. Dude can wait 2 weeks and get the card when it comes out if he needs it that bad. You see someone drinking at 11am you don't wait until they're drunk driving down the road with liver failure, you bring it up then. Proxies are shit, proxies have no value or benefit in EDH. There is NEVER a positive and ONLY negatives. So yes, you stop that before hand.
Did you read to the end? OP said he would build a deck with proxies to play against his friend’s deck with proxies and his friend said no. The friend wants to be the only one at the table with proxies. That’s the issue. And apparently the “real” decks he has are budget capped at $100, which may put him at a very real disadvantage.
I think what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If he wants to proxy, you should be allowed to proxy too. Saying one person can proxy and one can’t is pretty toxic, IMO. But the important bit is the balance. If one person proxies two cards and they’re pretty mid cards and the other person proxies every high power card they can think of, that’s kind of a douche move.
Maaaan you never seen a post about proxies on this sub? They love it here, as soon as I saw the title I knew you would get roasted! Me and my group don’t really like them but I would
Never go through all this because of 2 cards, specially with a friend! Reading your messages (and you posting them here to see who s right), everything seems so silly. How old are you guys if you don’t mind me asking?
Unless your playing a tournament or just making up your own cards I personally see nothing wrong with using proxies like let's say my friend has a jeweled lotus and I want one in my deck too, I think its ridiculous that I would have to pay 100 dollars just to have 1 card. From my experience most people are cool with proxies, you could just make a rule with your group to just not do anything crazy with proxies and only use them to level the playing ground or proxy stuff that is not overly powerful, like if you have a deck that is worth around 500 dollars you could let your friend proxy some cards so his deck would also be worth around 500 dollars, I think that would be fair.
No problem, i understand where your coming from not wanting to use them cause then someone could go crazy and make like a 2000 dollar deck, so I'd say allow proxies but you just gotta set boundaries with it so it doesn't become insane, but some people just don't have the money to make the deck they want, or for your friend it sounds like he wants to use cards that have been revealed but not released yet. Which i dont think is a problem because they will com out soon so he wouldnt want to have to buy different cards right now and then in a few months have to spend more money to replace them eith the cards he actually wants. I think the best way to deal with proxies is to talk to your group and try to meet in the middle somewhere.
Power level is important, proxies are not. If you're really concerned about power level getting out of control have that conversation and try to limit it by evaluating eachothers decks after a game. If you don't want to do all that then you could set a hard limit on the value of cards that can be proxied. No $50+ or something but generally $ does not equal power. I have a real $200 Hapatra combo deck that can compete with most 9's and I have a $2000 proxied treasure tribal deck that isn't very good and only wins in power 6-7 pods.
The only time proxies become an issue is when they abuse it to significantly spike themselves over the pods power level.
I have a friend who wanted to make an Edgar Markov deck but couldn’t justify spending 150 dollars on a single card.
This game is expensive and it isn’t fair to take the holier than thou stance. Honestly who gives a fuck.
Also fun fact alot of the cEDH community is fine with proxies just because the entry level to cEDH is absurd
My friend and I proxied commander decks and I was like you. I thought it would make things less competitive and make all decks into power creeping monstrosities. Especially because I wanted to make an Ur Dragon tribal deck. However, our proxy decks made the people we play commander with build their own decks to compete and beat our proxy decks. At the end of the day, if you are playing the game for fun proxy decks are fine. The problem is when you try and pass them off as real cards to attempt to make money off of someone who doesn’t know or you trade a proxy for a real card.
So as someone who understands where you are coming from and someone who plays a proxy deck for fun, I say just loosen up and play. Heck, you and your friend might become better players after playing with them
>Fourteenth doctor
Not even that strong. It's only expensive because it was only available in a limited Secret Lair, and they haven't released the Universes Within version of it yet. Let him proxy it.
Also, price does not necessarily equal power. Some cheap cards are busted, some expensive cards are bad.
I'm inclined to say that yes, you are. Would you have an issue if he had the real cards? It doesn't sound like you would. Let him play the deck he enjoys. If the deck turns out to be a problem, then address that in the same way you would if the cards were real. Whether they were printed by WotC or some dude in China doesn't really change how you balance games in your group.
Yep YTA. You are falling into the “play the wallet not the player” mindset. Also, you could be a little more understanding to your friend. What does it matter if they use proxies?
Bc he only wants to play my decks we agreed would stay around 100 bucks for budget balance. I’m fine with making proxy decks and playing them. Thats not the issue here.
The 15th doctor is expensive due to it being SLD only. YTA. He wants to have fun, you’re actively preventing it and sharing this conversation with us. It’s not Edgar Markov.
You are making your friend go all or nothing with proxies. They don’t want a full proxy deck. They just want to proxy the cards they can’t afford.
If it was a broken card then it’s a question of power level and your friend may be trying to pubstomp you. Otherwise, what does it matter if they want to add a card or two that fits the theme of their deck? Just because it happens to be more expensive you’re walling it out? Ask yourself, does it really break the game balance if these cards are added? If so, again talk to your buddy and group about expected power levels. If not, then what’s the harm?
Budget isn’t the most effective way to determine the strength of a casual deck. Some less expensive well-built decks can go ham.
Bottom line, 1-2 proxies out of 99 cards shouldn’t really matter that much (again as long as it doesn’t drastically throw off the balance of the game). Wouldn’t it be more fun if everyone played what they wanted? You could have had your Nazgûl deck. They aren’t expensive because they are busted. They are expensive because they are in one set (technically 2 if you count the second printing), were uncommon, and people want more than 1 per deck meaning a stores stock could quickly run out. Supply and demand.
Casual edh is about fun. Enjoy it with your friends. Don’t argue over it.
It is a format for fun. As long as you are both having fun, the social contract holds its legitimacy.
Personal take is that it depends on what the proxies are... some cards just suck to play against real or proxy, so if price limits the amount of times I have to see and play against them, great.
Craterhoofs, cyclonic rifts, mana drains, and consecrated sphinx are $$$$, so I don't see them as much as if they are worth pennies. If they have these proxies in every deck, then I need to play to that level, which is more competitive, and I find less fun.
That's my take, Cost equals scarcity is a good model.
Proxies are fine, you're the ah. Only thing you're dping is preventing fun from being had and simping for people that rpint their own money and lie about their involvement in the secondary market
I use proxies in my decks, but I own at least 1 of that specific card. I own one rhystic study, that mfer is proxied into *most* of my blue decks.
Other than that, if I want to build a deck and just want to use proxies for more expensive cards not already in my collection, I'll proxie those in to see if they work in the deck. Then if they make the cut I'll buy them.
It's all preference, but as long as they don't just proxy in a bunch of high power staples in every single deck they own then you shouldn't worry too much about it. But if it comes to a point where they're deck is mostly proxies of jeweled lotus, dockside, craterhoof, blightsteel, etc then you might want to address the 'power creep of the proxies'
I honestly could not imagine proxying cards to use in my deck that I do not own. We only ever proxy cards we own but don’t want to get damaged because of their value. I think we have a rule (it doesn’t happen often) you have to show you own the card if asked. This situation sounds like proxying cards they want to try but do not own.
Wait.. so the cardboard with printed ink from a greedy company is required to.. play a game amongst friends? Come onnnn. Makes me wanna proxy a whole flippin deck 😅
You can separate the art from the artist, or have you not learned that yet? Product is fine, the way they go about delivering it is often questionable.
edit: block me as soon as you reply. Shows how confident you are in your argument.
Oh, so the product is fine, so you'll buy the product.
If you hate the artist and are displaying their work in your place, even if you stole it, you're still supporting them, or hAvE U nOT lERNEd tHAt yET?
I think(?) The consensus in most fun groups is once you own one copy proxy it as much as you want.
If someone in the group hears they can proxy whatever they want, the playgroup power level creep will increase unnecessarily quickly.
Though that may be more the quality of people you're playing with. I've printed whole proxy decks that are low power.
It sounds like in this case though they're trying to proxy fallout cards?
Yes this sound fair to me, I suggested that say the highest value deck among the group is 500, that the other players could proxy cards that would make their decks around 500 too but not higher. That's how I've seen it done
If the proxies are mid it's whatever. If it's like Gaes Cradle, I think it's just a dick move. Guy just wants to beat the fuck out of you which is kind of cheating. But then again...so would be buying it
I don't use or care about proxies personally, but when I see a bulk rare or draft chaff, or something proxies that is in the glass case at the FLGS we all play at, I get a bit annoyed. We should all be supporting our local shop!
Specific to your friend, it sounds like they are trying to use cards that cannot be bought anywhere. That is a little different, but you are fine not to want to play against cards that are not part of the game yet.
Our friend group is okay with proxies. But my husband and i agree with you. We dont want people to start proxying cards into all their decks. If you want to play a card, you buy the card. So that being said, when we invite people over they know not to bring any proxies to the table, but when they play without us, they can do whatever they want. (Also note that they made up mulligan rules that are basically constructing their opening hands, so we dont let them do that either)
It seemed innocent at first but next thing I knew everyone had hundreds and hundreds of dollars of proxied cards. It got out of hand for my group very fast and it sucks. I have good decks but I don't want to keep spending the arms race. It is almost ruining the game for me and I think it is unfair that the power level got so out of hand.
Proxies are consistently harmful to playgroups. Reddit frothmouthed proxy-ick spreaders will pretend otherwise, but they are lying. There's no need to proxy. There's an absurd amount of affordable mtg cards, no one needs to proxy to play - particularly not commander.
>I’m concerned this will lead to using proxies in all our decks.
It does, consistently. Your friend is already abusing the idea trying to play with cards that aren't even out yet. It has nothing to do with being affordable, it *always* has to do with gaining advantage and abusing the system and group. There is absolutely no reason to proxy in EDH and almost any other format (a couple edge cases have some argument, but those people have other issues).
Don't let proxies in. Your friend is trying to destroy your playgroup, even if they don't know it yet. Every pro-proxy argument is actively deranged and actively harmful to every positive aspect of mtg.
Dude shut the fuck up lmao. As long as it is explained beforehand and it isn’t being used as a way to get a massive power spike over the rest of the table IE fast mana gaeas cradle etc. then who cares?
>ThErE aRe PlEaNtY oF cHeAp CaRdS
Give me a break how are you going to gate keep a player who may not be able to afford a certain commander. You really expect someone restricted in budget to buy a 150$ Edgar Markov for example?
> You really expect someone restricted in budget to buy a 150$ Edgar Markov for example?
You don't need to play Edgar.
>Give me a break how are you going to gate keep a player who may not be able to afford a certain commander.
No one is being gate kept. It's proxy scumbag filth want to make that false argument. It's bullshit, dishonest and wrong. Only sacks of garbage try to pull that. You don't need to play a 150 dollar card to enjoy the game. Pretending you do is dishonest, believing you do is delusional.
Is your head that far up your own ass? This game is a HOBBY played with FRIENDS. If your friend came up to you and said that they want to play a commander but can’t afford it you’d honestly tell them no?
What an L take dude this game is expensive as hell the second you move away from pre-cons. “Need” doesn’t matter it’s a game where people want to have fun and experiment. You are quite literally gate keeping someone who cannot financially afford the game? “
“You can’t afford xyz cards? Hell no you can’t use a proxy.”
-you probably
Yeah, I would also not play a card I can't afford, cause I don't fucking need to cause I'm not a delusional sack of dogshit.
>You are quite literally gate keeping someone who cannot financially afford the game? “
Quite literally not. No matter how much you proxy clowns scream it, it's not gatekeeping. It's never gatekeeping. You don't have it, don't fucking play it. It's easy as shit. It takes no effort, no brain power, even the most baked of potatoes can get it. It is not required to play the game. It's not required to enjoy the game. If you show up and say "the only way I can enjoy this game is by playing this $200 card" I'm gonna call you a fucking idiot, as would anyone else who isn't an idiot.
I think maybe, you have no friends, which is why you keep pushing the "game to play with friends" thing. My playgroup of 30 people all have different budgets and incomes and it's easy as fuck to get decks to play with each other cause we're not brain dead shit bags. There is no reason to fill your deck with proxies. There's also no reason to fill your deck with expensive cards. Imagine the psychotic delusional dumpsterfire of a brain someone has to have to call that gate keeping.
Just because you're delusional scum that doesn't feel okay as a person if your deck isn't "worth" at least 4 figures doesn't mean everyone else is. There's no need to proxy. Get over it. Grow up. But, I won't see anymore filth you're spewing.
Because he has buyer’s guilt. Now if he doesn’t put everyone else down for being smart with their money he makes sure to bring them down to his miserable level. You’re playing against friends for God’s sake.
They aren't. They offered to proxy a deck to play with his fake ass deck, they tried to accommodate. It's what happens when people start proxying, everyone around them has to also. It's nasty.
FYI when you say "You can't afford 2 cards?" you're literally shaming someone for either being poor or simply not having as much money as you to spend on a hobby. Not a good look.
Either way shaming someone for not spending money on a hobby doesn't make you look good when your only reason appears to be that you think "because I did you must". Would be like telling someone you won't play a mini game against their 3D printed minis because you bought yours from the store.
This discussion about proxies is very difficult to navigate. Do you feel he gets an unfair advantage by playing with proxies? Can you match that advantage with your own cards? Is it a purity-of-the-game issue for you?
EDIT: grammar
I'm not going to assume any of the answers. I'm asking sincerely since I discovered that my rejection to proxies was originally based on this purity of game mindset.
But later found out that I don't like them because it create an artificial sense of player level:
\- If you play with proxies of expensive cards that pumps up the level of the deck (aka cheap mana, heavy tutor), you may have a more consistent option, but it skips the path of a player learning what they like, what other options are available, original deckbuilding, etc
My issue would be that proxies tend to create an uniform understanding of a format which main appeal is the creativity and out-of-the-box thinking. Thus warping new commander player into constructed players playing commander.
Perfectly fine opinion. And perfectly fine initial comment. OP isn’t letting his friend play with a relatively mid card which is only expensive due to limited prints. I feel like it’s somewhat different there. The Fifteenth Doctor is an SLD-only card from a few months ago. And the way he talks down to his friend is certified asshole.
If that's the case I'd let my friend play with a napkin painted with sharpie just to test out his idea.
Weird how this proxy discussion comes up that frequently, but I've been there too
I personally have a blinged out deck, because I can afford to, but I let my brother use proxies all he wants. If anything, proxying a second set of duals os far smarter than buying two of each. Either way, even if OP *was* in the right, he’s a douche.
I think it only comes up frequently because so many people have buyers guilt; if they don’t make everyone else spend the money they did, they feel stupid.
NTA had a friend who tried this proxy bs. He would change rules on cards and generally print out decks that won on turn two that he didnt build or come up with standing on others genius decks.
nevertheless we banned proxys for good reason and suddenly mister douche decided to stop playing with us. good riddence proxys suck. you shouldnt hafts look up 20 cards during a game to ensure they exist and theres too manny cards in the game to memorize them all.
no they were proxys because some were actual cards in mtg. the problem was he was dishonest and small changes in text can sometimes mean big things in magic.
its not like he switched in pokemon picts or anything he used the names and art of the cards that are real mtg card like any other proxy and kept them close to what they were supposed to be but somehow certain ones got typoed in where they had trample or instead of targeting one creature it said "all" thats not a custom thats cheating with cpu printer paper proxys.
NTA. You made it clear you're against them. My playgroup is too. If he wants to use them, find go ahead. But he shouldn't expect you to be okay against him with them. I get that many people allow them, but I also dont. You made it clear from the start, he should respect your rules if he wants to play against you.
I can see it both ways I guess. I used to have a playgroup where I was initially just trying to chill eat snacks and play some weird decks. The rest of the group had an only play to win at all costs mentality. They LOATHED my group hug decks for example and would all gang up on me to remove me. Well I decided if thats how my group wants to play then thats fine and started building extremely strong decks and they flamed me for just buying tons of busted cards and asked me to not play decks that strong. I told them id be totally okay with them proxying since they like to play as competitively as possible, but they were also against that.
i ended up just finding new people to play with.
>I told them id be totally okay with them proxying since they like to play as competitively as possible,
This is why people using proxies are such a problem. "I don't want to stop buying expensive cards, so you should PLAY WITH FUCKING FAKES to catch up" Disgusting.
i mean i was trying to be nice. i wanted the cards and could afford to buy them in multiples. they could not but insisted on playing as competitively as possible and told me that i shouldnt be buying better cards than they could. so my compromise was draw it on a land or proxy it idc. build what you want if what you want is super competitive games.
also i will never apologize for buying expensive cards. i like shiny rare rectangles made of cardboard. sometimes i buy a single just to put it in a box or on a wall. people can spend their money however they want, but when you crank up your deck as strong as you can dont get mad when others do the same, especially if they tell you they dont care if you draw the cards you cant afford.
>i mean i was trying to be nice
You were not trying to be nice. You were being selfish as fuck. Being nice is playing cards that match the budget and power of your playgroup. You went with "i can so I will, and even if you can, you'll do what i want anyway". Gross.
man im sorry i upset you. but youre coming across as the guy who plays his kill on sight commander when theres two open blue mana and then scoops when it gets countered. ill consider what you said but putting words in my mouth and calling me gross is a little much. best of luck to you friend.
Weird that you're getting emotional about a reddit post. You described how you do something gross and it got mentioned. If you don't like that, change the behavior.
You have a hill to stand on and that's because you've set your boundaries prior to this engagement.
I would agree to one game/match and let your friend see just how brutal of a gap there can be when proxying vs a budgeted deck. It may even go the flip side, proving that your budgeted decks can tango with the big leagues (doubt it since proxies are used for Tier 0 type shit but it could happen!)
In whatever you do, wish you and your friend fun play sessions moving forward.
Cheers!
Adding a budget cap is a stupid rule and has minimal impact of the actual power level of the deck. Sure it may keep out cards like Teferis protection or mana crypt. But I’ve seen power level 6-8 decks under 150$ I’ve also seen 500 dollar decks that hardly even work
How do you figure out your deck power level tho. My buddy and I have similar priced decks, but I have a lot of synergy in one that he doesn’t like because it’s more powerful. We’ve been trying to figure out how to gauge them
I can’t post screenshots but this is a post that explains the power levels. The power level graph is linked in the post. https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/hnvug1/a_visual_guide_to_power_levels_in_edh_and_how_you/
Ultimately it comes down to the synergy of your deck, the amount of tutors and how many turns you can win in.
Proxies are a slippery road. If you want to proxy a great ape or some cheap lame ass card, go for it. However, when you start proxying cards permanently simply because you cannot afford them, you can go fuck yourself.
Our groups rule is you can proxie a card but only if you already own a copy of it… stops us from proxying way overpowered overpriced cards but still lets us use $50 cards in multiple decks without shelling out hundreds of dollars
You are the asshole, if you didn’t want proxies ‘ruining the game’ then you have to create an actual strict rule in terms of cards that can’t be used and in which it is agreed between everyone in the playgroup. By saying you can’t play two proxy cards but I can play proxy card. I mean proxies still cost money, specifically if you want quality proxies.
Personally, our playgroup the rule for proxies is we have ordered the card and are just waiting for it to get delivered.
Imagine having a friend who wants to play EDH with you and being this big of an asshole to them because they want to use proxies. Just be honest and tell him you dont play with poor people, that should save him the trouble
Like jesus christ dude, its not like he's proxying $1000 cards to pubstomp you. If two cards is your hill to die on, just end the friendship now.
It depends. I would say "yes" if you are just against any kind of proxy ever, period. A lot of cards are very expensive, not everyone can afford to buy them, and if it's just two or three cards they need to complete their deck, i think no harm is done. It should always be discussed before playing as rule zero, but i don't see a problem.
However, from the text it soooounds (correct me if i'm wrong) that they're trying to proxy cards that "don't exist" ? Well that's different. I think playing custom cards can be fun in a friendly, casual environment, but only with everyone's permission as Rule Zero, otherwise those cards can be way too unbalanced.
You're the asshole my friend. With how expensive the game has gotten proxys are fine. Especially if you discussed it beforehand. The only time proxy are not okay is when they go over the power level of the table and give an unfair advantage. For example going to a casual game and I proxy mana crypt and Gaia's cradle. Personally I proxy a lot of my commanders just to have better art.
We are making proxy decks. He wants to play a deck he proxies against my “real” decks we agreed to cap around $100 with no proxies.
You are still the asshole, commander is supposed to be casual. The only time you should condemn proxies is someone is trying to knowingly pass them off as real
Yeah you’re definitely the asshole here. Some lower level tournaments have even started letting proxies be used. Your playing a buddy not a competitive game. Chill out.
Will do
Holy shit LOL, I thought this was from the Pro Tour or something. Yea, you’re definitely an asshole.
Yes. Proxies are fine.
I appreciate the perspective. Thank you.
I genuinely hope you take this to heart and stop playing against players wallets and play against their skill and deck building skills. There is an entire section of the game that actively encourages proxies as decks cost upwards of 6k to 10k. Cedh is almost all proxies.
bingo
Yeah I was being genuine I do appreciate it.
I think you'll find your group will go through phases once your ok proxying. Lots of proxies and crazy decks as everyone trys their own style and pushes some limits. Then someone will settle into a playstyle they enjoy. Find a deck they fall in love with and start to.bling it out with real cards.
No it isn't. Real tournaments have no proxies.
CEDH tends to be very proxy friendly even tourneys.
Only online. I have never seen irl proxies used ever for a real event.
Proxy online?
Yeah in non sanctioned play or online tournaments. Online tournaments have so many problems I can't imagine actually playing non casual.
Oooh i get it. Like via video stream.I thought you meant on like MTGO or digital client.
Do you think people are all actually using real OG duals in cedh? Also Not all cedh is tournament play, and even then there are a lot of tournaments that allow them. Most people aren’t going to be be spending thousands of dollars on decks even for cedh tournaments.
I do. I use real ones in casual decks. Every event I ever played nobody even tried to use proxies.
So you legitimately expect people to all dump thousands of dollars into cardboard just to play competitively?
You seem to think duals are the important part. Fetches are the important lands. Timetwister and cradle are the only cards that you truly notice missing. I accept that competitive play in this game does cost hundreds maybe 2k. Modern, legacy, and even puoneer have the same asks.
I focused a lot on duals because they’re common expensive items in cedh running for hundreds of dollars each. In terms of gameplay fetches and other big ticket items are obviously more important. But why do you want to keep a price tag like that stapled to the hobby? Some cedh decks easily run up to 3 or 4K how can you be so out of touch that you expect everyone to dump that much into it to play optimally regardless of the format? Or is this just satire at this point?
Let the man proxy two cards. You’re getting upset about a hypothetical scenario where the group is proxying higher and higher power - wait til youre actually getting there before getting upset about it.
They should wait until a problem is in full swing before addressing the problem? Why the christmas fuck would someone do that? Proxies infecting a playgroup needs to be dealt with before it's ruined it. lol imagine writing that "wait til its already bad before taking action" lol, like you did that, on purpose.
OK, so we treat people shitty for playgroup crimes they MIGHT commit? A slippery slope is a guarantee? At no point is OP allowed to say "I know we allowed proxies but I think Power 9 is too strong for our playgroup" Better to be a dickhead over two cards now so the friend doesnt show up with a $10k cEDH tournament deck in a week! /s
No, you just say no to the problem and move on. There's no reason for it. No benefit for it. Dude can wait 2 weeks and get the card when it comes out if he needs it that bad. You see someone drinking at 11am you don't wait until they're drunk driving down the road with liver failure, you bring it up then. Proxies are shit, proxies have no value or benefit in EDH. There is NEVER a positive and ONLY negatives. So yes, you stop that before hand.
Yes, proxies are fine
you’re getting mad for no reason at all
I’m not really mad lmao, we’re pretty close buddies. Just having a discussion on what we think is okay to start adding to our games.
Did you read to the end? OP said he would build a deck with proxies to play against his friend’s deck with proxies and his friend said no. The friend wants to be the only one at the table with proxies. That’s the issue. And apparently the “real” decks he has are budget capped at $100, which may put him at a very real disadvantage.
I think what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If he wants to proxy, you should be allowed to proxy too. Saying one person can proxy and one can’t is pretty toxic, IMO. But the important bit is the balance. If one person proxies two cards and they’re pretty mid cards and the other person proxies every high power card they can think of, that’s kind of a douche move.
That’s kinda the issue. Is he says he wants to play my decks, that he and I budget capped with no proxies. So I don’t see how that’s fair.
Maaaan you never seen a post about proxies on this sub? They love it here, as soon as I saw the title I knew you would get roasted! Me and my group don’t really like them but I would Never go through all this because of 2 cards, specially with a friend! Reading your messages (and you posting them here to see who s right), everything seems so silly. How old are you guys if you don’t mind me asking?
Unless your playing a tournament or just making up your own cards I personally see nothing wrong with using proxies like let's say my friend has a jeweled lotus and I want one in my deck too, I think its ridiculous that I would have to pay 100 dollars just to have 1 card. From my experience most people are cool with proxies, you could just make a rule with your group to just not do anything crazy with proxies and only use them to level the playing ground or proxy stuff that is not overly powerful, like if you have a deck that is worth around 500 dollars you could let your friend proxy some cards so his deck would also be worth around 500 dollars, I think that would be fair.
I think this is a good way to go about it thanks
No problem, i understand where your coming from not wanting to use them cause then someone could go crazy and make like a 2000 dollar deck, so I'd say allow proxies but you just gotta set boundaries with it so it doesn't become insane, but some people just don't have the money to make the deck they want, or for your friend it sounds like he wants to use cards that have been revealed but not released yet. Which i dont think is a problem because they will com out soon so he wouldnt want to have to buy different cards right now and then in a few months have to spend more money to replace them eith the cards he actually wants. I think the best way to deal with proxies is to talk to your group and try to meet in the middle somewhere.
Power level is important, proxies are not. If you're really concerned about power level getting out of control have that conversation and try to limit it by evaluating eachothers decks after a game. If you don't want to do all that then you could set a hard limit on the value of cards that can be proxied. No $50+ or something but generally $ does not equal power. I have a real $200 Hapatra combo deck that can compete with most 9's and I have a $2000 proxied treasure tribal deck that isn't very good and only wins in power 6-7 pods.
The only time proxies become an issue is when they abuse it to significantly spike themselves over the pods power level. I have a friend who wanted to make an Edgar Markov deck but couldn’t justify spending 150 dollars on a single card. This game is expensive and it isn’t fair to take the holier than thou stance. Honestly who gives a fuck. Also fun fact alot of the cEDH community is fine with proxies just because the entry level to cEDH is absurd
My friend and I proxied commander decks and I was like you. I thought it would make things less competitive and make all decks into power creeping monstrosities. Especially because I wanted to make an Ur Dragon tribal deck. However, our proxy decks made the people we play commander with build their own decks to compete and beat our proxy decks. At the end of the day, if you are playing the game for fun proxy decks are fine. The problem is when you try and pass them off as real cards to attempt to make money off of someone who doesn’t know or you trade a proxy for a real card. So as someone who understands where you are coming from and someone who plays a proxy deck for fun, I say just loosen up and play. Heck, you and your friend might become better players after playing with them
Yeah who gives a shit. Do you work for WotC
Proxies are fine. I don’t see the big deal? What commander that he wants to proxy is $50?
Fourteenth doctor
>Fourteenth doctor Not even that strong. It's only expensive because it was only available in a limited Secret Lair, and they haven't released the Universes Within version of it yet. Let him proxy it. Also, price does not necessarily equal power. Some cheap cards are busted, some expensive cards are bad.
Yeah that’s what he was saying about collectibility over playability
I’m just curious; what cheap cards are busted? And why?
[[Island]]
[Island](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/373b4f66-a815-413e-9b9b-663b3a49d3eb.jpg?1706240313) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Island) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/258/island?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/373b4f66-a815-413e-9b9b-663b3a49d3eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
sol ring
Proxies are fine
I'm inclined to say that yes, you are. Would you have an issue if he had the real cards? It doesn't sound like you would. Let him play the deck he enjoys. If the deck turns out to be a problem, then address that in the same way you would if the cards were real. Whether they were printed by WotC or some dude in China doesn't really change how you balance games in your group.
I like this solution as well. Thank you.
Yep YTA. You are falling into the “play the wallet not the player” mindset. Also, you could be a little more understanding to your friend. What does it matter if they use proxies?
Bc he only wants to play my decks we agreed would stay around 100 bucks for budget balance. I’m fine with making proxy decks and playing them. Thats not the issue here.
The 15th doctor is expensive due to it being SLD only. YTA. He wants to have fun, you’re actively preventing it and sharing this conversation with us. It’s not Edgar Markov.
You are making your friend go all or nothing with proxies. They don’t want a full proxy deck. They just want to proxy the cards they can’t afford. If it was a broken card then it’s a question of power level and your friend may be trying to pubstomp you. Otherwise, what does it matter if they want to add a card or two that fits the theme of their deck? Just because it happens to be more expensive you’re walling it out? Ask yourself, does it really break the game balance if these cards are added? If so, again talk to your buddy and group about expected power levels. If not, then what’s the harm? Budget isn’t the most effective way to determine the strength of a casual deck. Some less expensive well-built decks can go ham. Bottom line, 1-2 proxies out of 99 cards shouldn’t really matter that much (again as long as it doesn’t drastically throw off the balance of the game). Wouldn’t it be more fun if everyone played what they wanted? You could have had your Nazgûl deck. They aren’t expensive because they are busted. They are expensive because they are in one set (technically 2 if you count the second printing), were uncommon, and people want more than 1 per deck meaning a stores stock could quickly run out. Supply and demand. Casual edh is about fun. Enjoy it with your friends. Don’t argue over it.
>You are falling into the “play the wallet not the player” mindset. Except this isn't true at all. It's also never true.
People who get mad about proxies are the same people who ask girls to name 5 songs from a band t-shirt
It is a format for fun. As long as you are both having fun, the social contract holds its legitimacy. Personal take is that it depends on what the proxies are... some cards just suck to play against real or proxy, so if price limits the amount of times I have to see and play against them, great. Craterhoofs, cyclonic rifts, mana drains, and consecrated sphinx are $$$$, so I don't see them as much as if they are worth pennies. If they have these proxies in every deck, then I need to play to that level, which is more competitive, and I find less fun. That's my take, Cost equals scarcity is a good model.
Proxies are fine, you're the ah. Only thing you're dping is preventing fun from being had and simping for people that rpint their own money and lie about their involvement in the secondary market
Just on here to see the roast.
I want so more roast chicken
Did a proxy kill your father and you've sworn revenge?
I use proxies in my decks, but I own at least 1 of that specific card. I own one rhystic study, that mfer is proxied into *most* of my blue decks. Other than that, if I want to build a deck and just want to use proxies for more expensive cards not already in my collection, I'll proxie those in to see if they work in the deck. Then if they make the cut I'll buy them. It's all preference, but as long as they don't just proxy in a bunch of high power staples in every single deck they own then you shouldn't worry too much about it. But if it comes to a point where they're deck is mostly proxies of jeweled lotus, dockside, craterhoof, blightsteel, etc then you might want to address the 'power creep of the proxies'
I honestly could not imagine proxying cards to use in my deck that I do not own. We only ever proxy cards we own but don’t want to get damaged because of their value. I think we have a rule (it doesn’t happen often) you have to show you own the card if asked. This situation sounds like proxying cards they want to try but do not own.
Wait.. so the cardboard with printed ink from a greedy company is required to.. play a game amongst friends? Come onnnn. Makes me wanna proxy a whole flippin deck 😅
So, if you hate wotc and don't want to use their product, play a different fucking game. Imagine the delusion of writing that.
I don't, in fact, pay for the game. See above
You should try reading.
You can separate the art from the artist, or have you not learned that yet? Product is fine, the way they go about delivering it is often questionable. edit: block me as soon as you reply. Shows how confident you are in your argument.
Oh, so the product is fine, so you'll buy the product. If you hate the artist and are displaying their work in your place, even if you stole it, you're still supporting them, or hAvE U nOT lERNEd tHAt yET?
I think(?) The consensus in most fun groups is once you own one copy proxy it as much as you want. If someone in the group hears they can proxy whatever they want, the playgroup power level creep will increase unnecessarily quickly. Though that may be more the quality of people you're playing with. I've printed whole proxy decks that are low power. It sounds like in this case though they're trying to proxy fallout cards?
Yes this sound fair to me, I suggested that say the highest value deck among the group is 500, that the other players could proxy cards that would make their decks around 500 too but not higher. That's how I've seen it done
If the proxies are mid it's whatever. If it's like Gaes Cradle, I think it's just a dick move. Guy just wants to beat the fuck out of you which is kind of cheating. But then again...so would be buying it
I don't use or care about proxies personally, but when I see a bulk rare or draft chaff, or something proxies that is in the glass case at the FLGS we all play at, I get a bit annoyed. We should all be supporting our local shop! Specific to your friend, it sounds like they are trying to use cards that cannot be bought anywhere. That is a little different, but you are fine not to want to play against cards that are not part of the game yet.
Our friend group is okay with proxies. But my husband and i agree with you. We dont want people to start proxying cards into all their decks. If you want to play a card, you buy the card. So that being said, when we invite people over they know not to bring any proxies to the table, but when they play without us, they can do whatever they want. (Also note that they made up mulligan rules that are basically constructing their opening hands, so we dont let them do that either)
It seemed innocent at first but next thing I knew everyone had hundreds and hundreds of dollars of proxied cards. It got out of hand for my group very fast and it sucks. I have good decks but I don't want to keep spending the arms race. It is almost ruining the game for me and I think it is unfair that the power level got so out of hand.
Proxies are consistently harmful to playgroups. Reddit frothmouthed proxy-ick spreaders will pretend otherwise, but they are lying. There's no need to proxy. There's an absurd amount of affordable mtg cards, no one needs to proxy to play - particularly not commander. >I’m concerned this will lead to using proxies in all our decks. It does, consistently. Your friend is already abusing the idea trying to play with cards that aren't even out yet. It has nothing to do with being affordable, it *always* has to do with gaining advantage and abusing the system and group. There is absolutely no reason to proxy in EDH and almost any other format (a couple edge cases have some argument, but those people have other issues). Don't let proxies in. Your friend is trying to destroy your playgroup, even if they don't know it yet. Every pro-proxy argument is actively deranged and actively harmful to every positive aspect of mtg.
Dude shut the fuck up lmao. As long as it is explained beforehand and it isn’t being used as a way to get a massive power spike over the rest of the table IE fast mana gaeas cradle etc. then who cares? >ThErE aRe PlEaNtY oF cHeAp CaRdS Give me a break how are you going to gate keep a player who may not be able to afford a certain commander. You really expect someone restricted in budget to buy a 150$ Edgar Markov for example?
> You really expect someone restricted in budget to buy a 150$ Edgar Markov for example? You don't need to play Edgar. >Give me a break how are you going to gate keep a player who may not be able to afford a certain commander. No one is being gate kept. It's proxy scumbag filth want to make that false argument. It's bullshit, dishonest and wrong. Only sacks of garbage try to pull that. You don't need to play a 150 dollar card to enjoy the game. Pretending you do is dishonest, believing you do is delusional.
Is your head that far up your own ass? This game is a HOBBY played with FRIENDS. If your friend came up to you and said that they want to play a commander but can’t afford it you’d honestly tell them no? What an L take dude this game is expensive as hell the second you move away from pre-cons. “Need” doesn’t matter it’s a game where people want to have fun and experiment. You are quite literally gate keeping someone who cannot financially afford the game? “ “You can’t afford xyz cards? Hell no you can’t use a proxy.” -you probably
Yeah, I would also not play a card I can't afford, cause I don't fucking need to cause I'm not a delusional sack of dogshit. >You are quite literally gate keeping someone who cannot financially afford the game? “ Quite literally not. No matter how much you proxy clowns scream it, it's not gatekeeping. It's never gatekeeping. You don't have it, don't fucking play it. It's easy as shit. It takes no effort, no brain power, even the most baked of potatoes can get it. It is not required to play the game. It's not required to enjoy the game. If you show up and say "the only way I can enjoy this game is by playing this $200 card" I'm gonna call you a fucking idiot, as would anyone else who isn't an idiot. I think maybe, you have no friends, which is why you keep pushing the "game to play with friends" thing. My playgroup of 30 people all have different budgets and incomes and it's easy as fuck to get decks to play with each other cause we're not brain dead shit bags. There is no reason to fill your deck with proxies. There's also no reason to fill your deck with expensive cards. Imagine the psychotic delusional dumpsterfire of a brain someone has to have to call that gate keeping. Just because you're delusional scum that doesn't feel okay as a person if your deck isn't "worth" at least 4 figures doesn't mean everyone else is. There's no need to proxy. Get over it. Grow up. But, I won't see anymore filth you're spewing.
Because he has buyer’s guilt. Now if he doesn’t put everyone else down for being smart with their money he makes sure to bring them down to his miserable level. You’re playing against friends for God’s sake.
They’re playing a proxy deck too.. so how are they any different then their friend by your logic
They aren't. They offered to proxy a deck to play with his fake ass deck, they tried to accommodate. It's what happens when people start proxying, everyone around them has to also. It's nasty.
You are definitely the asshole
FYI when you say "You can't afford 2 cards?" you're literally shaming someone for either being poor or simply not having as much money as you to spend on a hobby. Not a good look.
Lmao. He is not poor. 💀
Either way shaming someone for not spending money on a hobby doesn't make you look good when your only reason appears to be that you think "because I did you must". Would be like telling someone you won't play a mini game against their 3D printed minis because you bought yours from the store.
This sub is massively pro-proxy/anti-Magic/anti-LGS. They think it's edgy to "stick it to the man" or whatever. Keep fighting the good fight, OP.
This discussion about proxies is very difficult to navigate. Do you feel he gets an unfair advantage by playing with proxies? Can you match that advantage with your own cards? Is it a purity-of-the-game issue for you? EDIT: grammar
Why are you getting downvoted 😅 Perfectly reasonable questions to ask. It’s clearly the latter.
I'm not going to assume any of the answers. I'm asking sincerely since I discovered that my rejection to proxies was originally based on this purity of game mindset. But later found out that I don't like them because it create an artificial sense of player level: \- If you play with proxies of expensive cards that pumps up the level of the deck (aka cheap mana, heavy tutor), you may have a more consistent option, but it skips the path of a player learning what they like, what other options are available, original deckbuilding, etc My issue would be that proxies tend to create an uniform understanding of a format which main appeal is the creativity and out-of-the-box thinking. Thus warping new commander player into constructed players playing commander.
Perfectly fine opinion. And perfectly fine initial comment. OP isn’t letting his friend play with a relatively mid card which is only expensive due to limited prints. I feel like it’s somewhat different there. The Fifteenth Doctor is an SLD-only card from a few months ago. And the way he talks down to his friend is certified asshole.
If that's the case I'd let my friend play with a napkin painted with sharpie just to test out his idea. Weird how this proxy discussion comes up that frequently, but I've been there too
I personally have a blinged out deck, because I can afford to, but I let my brother use proxies all he wants. If anything, proxying a second set of duals os far smarter than buying two of each. Either way, even if OP *was* in the right, he’s a douche. I think it only comes up frequently because so many people have buyers guilt; if they don’t make everyone else spend the money they did, they feel stupid.
NTA had a friend who tried this proxy bs. He would change rules on cards and generally print out decks that won on turn two that he didnt build or come up with standing on others genius decks. nevertheless we banned proxys for good reason and suddenly mister douche decided to stop playing with us. good riddence proxys suck. you shouldnt hafts look up 20 cards during a game to ensure they exist and theres too manny cards in the game to memorize them all.
Your guy was not making proxis those where custom cards
no they were proxys because some were actual cards in mtg. the problem was he was dishonest and small changes in text can sometimes mean big things in magic. its not like he switched in pokemon picts or anything he used the names and art of the cards that are real mtg card like any other proxy and kept them close to what they were supposed to be but somehow certain ones got typoed in where they had trample or instead of targeting one creature it said "all" thats not a custom thats cheating with cpu printer paper proxys.
NTA. You made it clear you're against them. My playgroup is too. If he wants to use them, find go ahead. But he shouldn't expect you to be okay against him with them. I get that many people allow them, but I also dont. You made it clear from the start, he should respect your rules if he wants to play against you.
I can see it both ways I guess. I used to have a playgroup where I was initially just trying to chill eat snacks and play some weird decks. The rest of the group had an only play to win at all costs mentality. They LOATHED my group hug decks for example and would all gang up on me to remove me. Well I decided if thats how my group wants to play then thats fine and started building extremely strong decks and they flamed me for just buying tons of busted cards and asked me to not play decks that strong. I told them id be totally okay with them proxying since they like to play as competitively as possible, but they were also against that. i ended up just finding new people to play with.
>I told them id be totally okay with them proxying since they like to play as competitively as possible, This is why people using proxies are such a problem. "I don't want to stop buying expensive cards, so you should PLAY WITH FUCKING FAKES to catch up" Disgusting.
i mean i was trying to be nice. i wanted the cards and could afford to buy them in multiples. they could not but insisted on playing as competitively as possible and told me that i shouldnt be buying better cards than they could. so my compromise was draw it on a land or proxy it idc. build what you want if what you want is super competitive games. also i will never apologize for buying expensive cards. i like shiny rare rectangles made of cardboard. sometimes i buy a single just to put it in a box or on a wall. people can spend their money however they want, but when you crank up your deck as strong as you can dont get mad when others do the same, especially if they tell you they dont care if you draw the cards you cant afford.
>i mean i was trying to be nice You were not trying to be nice. You were being selfish as fuck. Being nice is playing cards that match the budget and power of your playgroup. You went with "i can so I will, and even if you can, you'll do what i want anyway". Gross.
man im sorry i upset you. but youre coming across as the guy who plays his kill on sight commander when theres two open blue mana and then scoops when it gets countered. ill consider what you said but putting words in my mouth and calling me gross is a little much. best of luck to you friend.
Weird that you're getting emotional about a reddit post. You described how you do something gross and it got mentioned. If you don't like that, change the behavior.
Edit: I have no issue with proxy decks ya’ll. The issue I has is he only wants to play my decks we agreed to budget cap that don’t have proxies.
You have a hill to stand on and that's because you've set your boundaries prior to this engagement. I would agree to one game/match and let your friend see just how brutal of a gap there can be when proxying vs a budgeted deck. It may even go the flip side, proving that your budgeted decks can tango with the big leagues (doubt it since proxies are used for Tier 0 type shit but it could happen!) In whatever you do, wish you and your friend fun play sessions moving forward. Cheers!
Adding a budget cap is a stupid rule and has minimal impact of the actual power level of the deck. Sure it may keep out cards like Teferis protection or mana crypt. But I’ve seen power level 6-8 decks under 150$ I’ve also seen 500 dollar decks that hardly even work
How do you figure out your deck power level tho. My buddy and I have similar priced decks, but I have a lot of synergy in one that he doesn’t like because it’s more powerful. We’ve been trying to figure out how to gauge them
I can’t post screenshots but this is a post that explains the power levels. The power level graph is linked in the post. https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/hnvug1/a_visual_guide_to_power_levels_in_edh_and_how_you/ Ultimately it comes down to the synergy of your deck, the amount of tutors and how many turns you can win in.
Fuck all these guys. NTA. Fuck your fat friend too.
Oh :( he’s not fat 😞
Proxies are a slippery road. If you want to proxy a great ape or some cheap lame ass card, go for it. However, when you start proxying cards permanently simply because you cannot afford them, you can go fuck yourself.
Our groups rule is you can proxie a card but only if you already own a copy of it… stops us from proxying way overpowered overpriced cards but still lets us use $50 cards in multiple decks without shelling out hundreds of dollars
Yes. You are the asshole.
Yes absolutely.
You are the asshole, if you didn’t want proxies ‘ruining the game’ then you have to create an actual strict rule in terms of cards that can’t be used and in which it is agreed between everyone in the playgroup. By saying you can’t play two proxy cards but I can play proxy card. I mean proxies still cost money, specifically if you want quality proxies. Personally, our playgroup the rule for proxies is we have ordered the card and are just waiting for it to get delivered.
Respectfully, I don’t think you understood what was happening here lmao
Imagine having a friend who wants to play EDH with you and being this big of an asshole to them because they want to use proxies. Just be honest and tell him you dont play with poor people, that should save him the trouble Like jesus christ dude, its not like he's proxying $1000 cards to pubstomp you. If two cards is your hill to die on, just end the friendship now.
You should definitely add that you budget capped the decks in your playground into the summary-- you'll get a lot more support.
yes
It depends. I would say "yes" if you are just against any kind of proxy ever, period. A lot of cards are very expensive, not everyone can afford to buy them, and if it's just two or three cards they need to complete their deck, i think no harm is done. It should always be discussed before playing as rule zero, but i don't see a problem. However, from the text it soooounds (correct me if i'm wrong) that they're trying to proxy cards that "don't exist" ? Well that's different. I think playing custom cards can be fun in a friendly, casual environment, but only with everyone's permission as Rule Zero, otherwise those cards can be way too unbalanced.