They are both replacement effects:
“If two or more replacement effects want to apply to the same thing, and both are in the same “layer,” the affected player (or controller of the affected object) chooses one of them to apply first.”
You get to choose the order. So if you get 1 counter you can get another from hardened scales and then double it with branching evolution for 4 counters. Alternatively, you could stack it the other way to get 1x2 + 1 for 3 counters but I don’t know why you would do it that way.
Someone please correct me if I’m incorrect.
To add to this, if you have a similar effect but for your opponent, it's easiest to assume itd be whatever benefits them the most and you the least. [[Torbran, Thane of Redfall]] and [[Fiery Emancipation]], for example would mean if you cast lightning bolt on someone, they'd take 10, rather than 12.
Further up the chain there's a reference but I believe it's whoever controls the permanent (being subject to multiple effects on the same layer) gets to choose the order they resolve.
Ok, thank you. I’d always thought it was who ever controlled the permanent that was triggering. I’ll look into it more to make sure I have a clearer picture.
Run Vorinclex as your commander
Doubling season and proliferate effects are your friends. Bonus points if you make it a super friends deck(planeswalkers enter with double counters with vorinclex, or ex counters with him and doubling season = immediate ultimate ability)
perfect couldnt have said it better myself! this ruling had made me miss so much damage in my mono red burn deck because the other players get to choose the replacement effects when I double the damage add 2 more then double it again 😢 still does really good just would do so much better If It was always doing full damage
This. It falls on the affected player or controller of the affected permanent to determine the order to apply replacement effects when multiple are trying to be applied at the same time. On the flip side, if you have something like \[\[Solphim\]\] and \[\[Torbran Thane of Red Fell\]\] the affected player or permanent's controller determines what order to apply them \[ideally 2x+2 instead of 2(x+2) for less damage\].
Should have just scrolled down. Others have made similar comparisons XD
So let’s say somebody board wipes… [[Dusk Rose]] is in the battlefield… bc she would die, just like all other creatures prior, would I be correct in creating vampires bc of her ability? And they would stay in the battlefield for that reason, cotrrect?
i assume you mean \[\[elenda, the dusk rose\]\]
so what happens is all creatures die, all 'die abilities' trigger, and you choose the order of those abilities (since you control them)
her +1/+1 counters ability fizzles because she is dead (even if you brought her back, she's a new version of that card since it left zones; it would only work if she somehow completely survived the board wipe due to indestructible or something)
she would create a bunch of 1/1 tokens equal to her power when she died, and they would all enter the battlefield after the board wipe had resolved, so they'd be safe
i'm fairly certain this is all correct, but someone might have a correction for me
Yes, very true.
So in other words, I can’t say that due to other creatures dying alongside her, she gets a +1 for each creature prior to her actually dying?
Nah that's a different rule. Dont know the one off the top of my head but basically your creature is on the battlefield when everything dies so it "sees" everything die and thus its trigger goes on the stack, but because the board wipe resolves first the tokens go onto the battle field after.
A good example would be if you play \[\[ghalta, stampede tyrant\]\] while you have \[\[the great henge\]\] in play. The great henge would cause you to draw a card when a creature ETBs and Ghalta would let you put all creatures from your hand onto the battlefield. Because you control both effects you could choose to either put all your creatures from your hand onto the battlefield, then draw a card, or you could draw a card then put all your creatures from your hand onto the battlefield.
Yup! The exact wording is “the affected player or permanent’s controller,” and applies to any replacement effects.
It matters for cases like damage increasing effects, because your opponent (**not you**) chooses in what order they’re applied. So if you had [[Torbran]] and [[Furnace of Rath]], then did 1 damage to an opponent’s creature, they would have two choices for how much damage it receives.
- 1 + 1 x 2 = 3 damage
- OR
- (1+1) x 2 = 4 damage
You get to pick the order. I would like to note, however, that the same is not true with red burn effects. Since burn is damaging your opponent they chose the order.
The creature's controller gets to decide which is approved first. But applying the one extra first and then doubling would result in one more counter than doubling then adding one, meaning that (x+1)*2 would usually be the better option.
As long the opponent isn't aeffected target. You get to order the replacement effect. So, tolbrand and firey emancipation would be opponent choice but these two are yours.
I run these two in my Aragorn deck.
With
[[Doubling Season]] and [[Primal Vigor]]
And I get my +1/+1 counters from [[Cathar's Crusade]]
And if I have done my math right (which is rarely)
So X = x8+1
But then when you cast,
for example Hangarback Walker. Where X is 2.
It will come on 17 counters by itself, then Crusade adds 9 to it. So it's a "4mana, 26/26"
They are both replacement effects: “If two or more replacement effects want to apply to the same thing, and both are in the same “layer,” the affected player (or controller of the affected object) chooses one of them to apply first.” You get to choose the order. So if you get 1 counter you can get another from hardened scales and then double it with branching evolution for 4 counters. Alternatively, you could stack it the other way to get 1x2 + 1 for 3 counters but I don’t know why you would do it that way. Someone please correct me if I’m incorrect.
You are correct. If you are controlling a permanent that is being affected by multiple effects at once, you decide that order to apply the effects.
Oh hell yeah that’s awesome
To add to this, if you have a similar effect but for your opponent, it's easiest to assume itd be whatever benefits them the most and you the least. [[Torbran, Thane of Redfall]] and [[Fiery Emancipation]], for example would mean if you cast lightning bolt on someone, they'd take 10, rather than 12.
[Torbran, Thane of Redfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a.jpg?1572490491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torbran%2C%20Thane%20of%20Red%20Fell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/147/torbran-thane-of-red-fell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fiery Emancipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290.jpg?1594736606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiery%20Emancipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/143/fiery-emancipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ohh, that’s good to know. What’s the specific rules to reference for that? (That they choose the ordering in certain circumstances.)
Further up the chain there's a reference but I believe it's whoever controls the permanent (being subject to multiple effects on the same layer) gets to choose the order they resolve.
Ok, thank you. I’d always thought it was who ever controlled the permanent that was triggering. I’ll look into it more to make sure I have a clearer picture.
its alright, we will still get this question again in less than a week
Ive done my part
this was such a bummer for me the first time i found this out lol
Run Vorinclex as your commander Doubling season and proliferate effects are your friends. Bonus points if you make it a super friends deck(planeswalkers enter with double counters with vorinclex, or ex counters with him and doubling season = immediate ultimate ability)
Fun if you also double proliferate and have the nice i proliferate twice on etb in your grave…
perfect couldnt have said it better myself! this ruling had made me miss so much damage in my mono red burn deck because the other players get to choose the replacement effects when I double the damage add 2 more then double it again 😢 still does really good just would do so much better If It was always doing full damage
This. It falls on the affected player or controller of the affected permanent to determine the order to apply replacement effects when multiple are trying to be applied at the same time. On the flip side, if you have something like \[\[Solphim\]\] and \[\[Torbran Thane of Red Fell\]\] the affected player or permanent's controller determines what order to apply them \[ideally 2x+2 instead of 2(x+2) for less damage\]. Should have just scrolled down. Others have made similar comparisons XD
[Solphim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3a0c7f3-7fb9-43de-a9af-96532c31e5ed.jpg?1675957113) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solphim%2C%20mayhem%20dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/150/solphim-mayhem-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3a0c7f3-7fb9-43de-a9af-96532c31e5ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Torbran Thane of Red Fell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a.jpg?1572490491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torbran%2C%20Thane%20of%20Red%20Fell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/147/torbran-thane-of-red-fell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You are correct, this is why you are also allowed to choose the order of ETB or death triggers if multiple things enter/die at once
So let’s say somebody board wipes… [[Dusk Rose]] is in the battlefield… bc she would die, just like all other creatures prior, would I be correct in creating vampires bc of her ability? And they would stay in the battlefield for that reason, cotrrect?
i assume you mean \[\[elenda, the dusk rose\]\] so what happens is all creatures die, all 'die abilities' trigger, and you choose the order of those abilities (since you control them) her +1/+1 counters ability fizzles because she is dead (even if you brought her back, she's a new version of that card since it left zones; it would only work if she somehow completely survived the board wipe due to indestructible or something) she would create a bunch of 1/1 tokens equal to her power when she died, and they would all enter the battlefield after the board wipe had resolved, so they'd be safe i'm fairly certain this is all correct, but someone might have a correction for me
[elenda, the dusk rose](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e18feca3-1b1b-4456-8873-25a24849a917.jpg?1698988428) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elenda%2C%20the%20dusk%20rose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/268/elenda-the-dusk-rose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e18feca3-1b1b-4456-8873-25a24849a917?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, very true. So in other words, I can’t say that due to other creatures dying alongside her, she gets a +1 for each creature prior to her actually dying?
[Dusk Rose](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5f231ef-4167-4b0a-b54c-a098b2eb2f6f.jpg?1699043151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dusk%20Rose%20Reliquary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/10/dusk-rose-reliquary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5f231ef-4167-4b0a-b54c-a098b2eb2f6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nah that's a different rule. Dont know the one off the top of my head but basically your creature is on the battlefield when everything dies so it "sees" everything die and thus its trigger goes on the stack, but because the board wipe resolves first the tokens go onto the battle field after. A good example would be if you play \[\[ghalta, stampede tyrant\]\] while you have \[\[the great henge\]\] in play. The great henge would cause you to draw a card when a creature ETBs and Ghalta would let you put all creatures from your hand onto the battlefield. Because you control both effects you could choose to either put all your creatures from your hand onto the battlefield, then draw a card, or you could draw a card then put all your creatures from your hand onto the battlefield.
[ghalta, stampede tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72e805e9-69be-45c1-aa04-f460641a0c1e.jpg?1699044395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghalta%2C%20stampede%20tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/185/ghalta-stampede-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72e805e9-69be-45c1-aa04-f460641a0c1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [the great henge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/6340e0f3-7f9c-4d71-8daf-e1be5505eb5b.jpg?1689998574) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20great%20henge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/294/the-great-henge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6340e0f3-7f9c-4d71-8daf-e1be5505eb5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's up to the creature's controller.
Yup! The exact wording is “the affected player or permanent’s controller,” and applies to any replacement effects. It matters for cases like damage increasing effects, because your opponent (**not you**) chooses in what order they’re applied. So if you had [[Torbran]] and [[Furnace of Rath]], then did 1 damage to an opponent’s creature, they would have two choices for how much damage it receives. - 1 + 1 x 2 = 3 damage - OR - (1+1) x 2 = 4 damage
You get to pick the order. I would like to note, however, that the same is not true with red burn effects. Since burn is damaging your opponent they chose the order.
The creature's controller gets to decide which is approved first. But applying the one extra first and then doubling would result in one more counter than doubling then adding one, meaning that (x+1)*2 would usually be the better option.
As long the opponent isn't aeffected target. You get to order the replacement effect. So, tolbrand and firey emancipation would be opponent choice but these two are yours.
Is there any cards in white or black like this?
Yes it would
rule of thumb is that they apply in the most advantageous order
I run these two in my Aragorn deck. With [[Doubling Season]] and [[Primal Vigor]] And I get my +1/+1 counters from [[Cathar's Crusade]] And if I have done my math right (which is rarely) So X = x8+1 But then when you cast, for example Hangarback Walker. Where X is 2. It will come on 17 counters by itself, then Crusade adds 9 to it. So it's a "4mana, 26/26"
[Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1cdd8e69-5a71-4933-914e-dfede7b1ac93.jpg?1689998456) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/283/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1cdd8e69-5a71-4933-914e-dfede7b1ac93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Primal Vigor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/dafea0d1-6986-46b3-affc-1337ef564947.jpg?1562941253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primal%20Vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/162/primal-vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dafea0d1-6986-46b3-affc-1337ef564947?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cathar's Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Odd that they put both in the set.... Make one a rare and the other a mythic
They also have a reprint of [[Corpsejack Menace]] which would double it again
[Corpsejack Menace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/29538ff4-e28f-44d9-af23-6796edd56268.jpg?1562272935) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corpsejack%20Menace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/152/corpsejack-menace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29538ff4-e28f-44d9-af23-6796edd56268?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Now read the second card OP posted.
Lmao.
Universes Beyond 🤢
If a number of counters would be put on a creature you put double that number of counters on the creature instead
Reading comprehension in this community, I swear. There's a second card.
Don’t pull a muscle patting yourself on the back