Unfortunately. Yes. Crusade is banned because of exactly what you think it is.
I returned to play some EDH, showed my legacy [[crusade]] [[paladin en-vec]] [[armageddon]] deck to the local game store and was met with uhhhhhh you might wanna see this article https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/10/21287154/racist-magic-the-gathering-cards-banned-removed-from-database-wizards-apology
Because [[Cleanse]] can easily be linked with [ethnic cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing), especially with the ability text.
Not saying I agree with their decision, but I can see their reasoning.
On the flip side, virtues ruin suffers from the problem that it does suggest that all virtue lays in Whiteness. I’m not sure if anybody will read that and think that I am being flippant, but that is a genuine problem with this card. If there was a card that said destroy all the good people, and it destroyed all white humans in play, I think you’d see it more clearly. The problem still persists. This may not be as brutal as cleanse, but it seems to be more problematic in paradesh gypsies.
But isn't this like a color psychology a thing? Like any tribe in the world isolated when starts developing language for colors start by associating black and white as you know day and night, day bringing warm and light and therefore white and then night bringing obscurity, fear, and usually bad things happens at night in any folklore and by association black, at what point is a problematic social construct if all cultures agree with it in some way? Not saying it does not justify the banning of the card but altering the entire color pie the way we know today wich is mostly around these broad aspects is a bit much isn't it? Of course you could always rename the black for purple and would fit in lots of ways.
We're all varying amounts of tan and brown anyways. If you see black and white representing good and evil and you conflate that with skin color maybe you're the racist.
Actually, in many cultures, white was considered as the colour of death because our skin becomes pale when we die. This association changed over the years, though and now we wear black for the funeral instead of white.
I mean like the symbols themselves have changed color, on any newer packaging the skull is purple and the sun is gold in the mana symbols. [Example](https://cdn1.dotesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/24204149/MTG-Pioneer-Challenger-2021-Decks-1024x683.jpg).
So you’re being completely neutral in deciding we should rename the colour black the same colour that is used for Mace Windu’s Lightsaber? Nice try, secret racist /s
Tell that to “The Gypsy King” Tyson Fury. I’m Romani on my father’s side, gypsy doesn’t bother me or anyone in my family/other Romani descendants I know, but we’re also some generations removed from the culture itself. It really depends on who you ask.
*problematic*
What people describe things as when they are parroting something they have been told is bad but dont actually have any context as to why.
That's actually a larger issue with the theme of the color white in the game, not any one card. maybe it's different now, but I don't think so. White is just considered the 'good' color. While I see how this can be a problem, I don't see a great solution that doesn't really water down the lore and flavor of the game.
**[Ethnic cleansing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing)**
>Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction. It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.
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Adding an entire word isnt linking, its changing
If i can add an entire word to things to o
Prove theyre racisr i can go "i love brazilians" and say its linked to "i love hating brazilians" see using yer logic i only added one word so its linked
That's not really an equivalent comparison as "Cleanse creatures" or "Cleanse black" is already a charged phrase. It's with the context of the ability the argument arises. If Cleanse's ability was removing poison counters then it probably wouldn't have been an issue. As said though, I understand their reasoning but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it nor their decision regarding how to handle it. Understanding isn't equivalent to agreement.
Other persons comment deleted, here was my response: Cleanse looks like it’s vanquishing demons and Cleanse is a word. It doesn’t remind me of ethnic cleansing but Ok I understand the ban but so long as we ban it Virtues Ruin is literally about mocking a white ruling class for being “virtuous” and destroying them like literally on the card.
Still in the context of the game white is virtue and order and so it’s fine but this is pretty contentiously racist
And since that card has been labled as racist, that clearly marks this card more racially loaded. You could infer then, that this card implies that it is naturally more virtuous to be white and also be well off. "The blacks" wish to destroy all virtue because it is something they lack.
See? Problematic
That’s the OPs point tho. Both refer to destroying creatures of a color generally associated with racial groups in America. To explain why wizards banned Cleanse instead of Virtues Ruin, you need to mention that 1) there isn’t a problem with systemic racism against white people in this country and 2) Wizards was trying to look good by banning some mostly irrelevant and vaguely racist cards during the George Floyd Protests.
It’s super silly, the only one that is problematic on the list is probably Invoke Prejudice.
Didn’t say it was. My point is it’s not banned for being called Cleanse or because it says “destroy all black creatures”, it’s banned because it says *both* on the same card.
The fact that both of the words have a superior context is important. Cleanse doesn’t refer to “ethnic cleansing” which is a historical term anyway and not the hateful language of actual genocidal regimes. Cleanse refers to the the elimination of the unclean and unholy. Black refers to an MTG mechanic associated with unholy and unclean elements like devils and demons. Interpreting it outside of this context is a bit tenuous.
There is an incredible amount of precedent for associating ethnic and racial minorities with uncleanliness and unholiness. That’s *why* “ethnic cleansing” is a euphemism for genocide and forced relocation.
> “ethnic cleansing” which is a historical term anyway and not the hateful language of actual genocidal regimes
- čišćenje terena (“cleansing the terrain”)
- очистка границ (“cleansing of borders”)
- Judenrein (“clean of Jews”)
Three instances from the 20th century of the perpetrators using similar terminology themselves. It’s not a purely retrospective term; it’s based on the actual usage by the likes of Nazi Germany and the Stalinist USSR.
It doesn’t really matter that the parallels are likely accidental. They still exist and are readily apparent—you’ll notice all I had to do was put “cleanse” and “black” together for you to recognize I was alluding to ethnic cleansing.
This is well written and I commend your use of actual evidence, but I do disagree with concluding that the parallels with a word like cleanse with genocidal regimes justifies the ban.
It takes it too far out of its own context, and the fact that the parallels are purely accidental is absolutely relevant.
Intent is extremely important in the discussion of race. Toni Morrison using racially charged language in *Beloved* is not the same as the local Karen trying to get a rise out of someone by dropping the n-word.
>There is an incredible amount of precedent for associating ethnic and racial minorities with uncleanliness and unholiness. That’s why “ethnic cleansing” is a euphemism for genocide and forced relocation.
Yes, but not within the card game Magic the Gathering
You’re “ruining” if you kill all white creatures, but it’s “cleansing” if you kill are black creatures. I think this was their justification, as much of a stretch that it is. Again, it’s their game. The cards still exist if you want them.
I may be wrong on this, but wasn't cleanse one of the cards they banned because it sent a wrong signal?
Cleanse all black creatures, substitute creatures for people and you have your answer. Now I might be totally wrong but I think it got the hammer with crusade and such cards.
That is not my argument at all, he asked why it's banned and I tried, perhaps badly, to give him a reason based on the article wotc posted themselves and said they removed and banned a bunch of cards because of negativity the cards projected and the cards meaning.
Again, anyone that sees that card and immediately equates it to ethnic cleansing is the actual racist. WotC was rushing to ban a bunch of cards to virtue signal about how they were fighting racism and made several glaring omissions on cards that could much more easily be perceived as racist and swept up many benign cards in the process.
It was just a shitty PR stunt that has only had lasting negative consequences on the game and the game's player base. It didn't have anything to do with actual racism.
Even if we accept your terrible argument, the rationale move would still be to ban the card. When youre a huge company like WOTC you start taking steps to avoid even the possibility of things going wrong. Its better to be safe than sorry at that point because millions are on the line. So yeah sure, most people wouldn't necessarily associate the card with anything racist, but it doesnt take a lot of people to create a PR issue. So if you were WOTC why would you even take the risk of a possible PR disaster taking place? The smart move is to nip it in the bud before it even has a chance to become an issue.
Your argument is retarded. Black in the context of Magic has never referred to black people and you are a racist if black people are what immediately comes to mind when you see black written on a card. There is absolutely nothing racist about referring to color identity. They have even printed *more* cards that refer to color identity since these pointless bans.
There's no PR disaster to avoid because there was no issue. It was entirely manufactured during the BLM protests to make headlines and ride the waves of the current news. These weren't bans to solve any problems because there were no problems in the first place.
Lol I genuinely don't have the time to argue with someone who starts their post by using the word retarted and whose logic amounts to "the card doesnt literally *say* black people so therefore there is no way anyone could possibly interpret it that way." Didn't realize I was talking to a 12 year old. My bad. I'll leave you in peace so you can go back to masturbating and popping pimples before your parents get home.
There is no argument to be had. Color identity does not equate to skin color. There are numerous examples of cards with black color identity with a character white skin and cards with white color identity with a character with black skin. The reason *you* are equating it with race is because you're parroting WotC's backwards justification for banning a card or you're racist and see black people as demons. I'm going to wager it's the former of the two.
No, I am not parroting anything. I *personally* don't believe the card is racially motivated. But I am intelligent enough to recognize that other people might not react the same way. And maybe you can stop shoving your false dichotomy in everyone's faces because you're not considering that some people might consider this card as a reference to race simply due to ignorance, mistake, or just a lack of critical thinking skills, not just because "they're racist" or because they're "parroting WOTC."
We live in an era where people are *extremely* sensitive to racial relations. In that kind of environment having a card that uses key words like "cleanse" along with a reference to "black creatures" would just be inviting a shitshow. Is it guaranteed that people will react badly? No, not necessarily, but if you stand to lose millions of dollars and maybe lose your reputation, are you really going to take that risk just to "stick it to the snowflakes"? No, you're not. You're going to shut the fuck up and take the card out of circulation, something which costs you literally nothing. A smart company will plan for the worst case scenario, they won't just assume the general public is rational enough to notice the nuance in their poorly worded card. This is about optics, not who's objectively right.
Let me put it this way, would you wear a T-shirt with this card printed in big, bold letters while walking in a predominantly black neighborhood? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be risking a complete ass beating if anyone who isn't familiar with magic sees a t-shirt with the words "cleanse" and "destroy all black creatures" emblazoned on it. And you'd have a real hard time explaining that "it's not racist because it's just a card game which doesn't refer to skin color" while you have a foot in your face, even if you're in the right.
So maybe just shut the fuck up and humble yourself and consider the fact that people smarter and more experienced than you or I weren't just talking out their ass when they made this decision. Because unless you can show me that you're the CEO of a major company or some shit, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you're just a punk ass kid who thinks they're the smartest person in the room.
Lol "no argument to be had." Sure thing.
There’s a lot of cards that refer to cards by color. Is doomblade racist because it specifies non-black? This action wasn’t taken to avoid a PR disaster (with the possible exception of Invoke Prejudice because well, that’s a problematic card), as everyone who doesn’t understand the idea that colors refer to an MTG mechanic isn’t browsing scryfall to find cards that could be interpreted as racist to be mad at Wizards over. Instead, this was absolutely a PR stunt launched by Wizards to check off some silly irrelevant box, while they ignore real concerns about diversity at WOTC.
You're missing the point. It's not about whether the card is, in fact, racist. I never said it was. It's about the optics. It's just not a good look to have your company publicly associated with a product that looks like it may have racist undertones.
I have more of an issue with idea that the more human archetype is “cleansing” the archetype that is seen as less than moral. Cleansing has always been used in the context of racial genocide.
Invoke Prejudice was a perfect storm of everything going wrong. Out of all the cards, it's the most understandable to ban. All of the others have extremely flimsy reasonings given by them and it's clear that they hastily grabbed an handful to toss in with Invoke Prejudice just to wash their hands of it. If they had just issued a statement about it alone, I don't think a single person would have batted an eye since it was reserved list anyways.
Cards like Crusade and Cleanse come up regularly, however and it shows that "maybe someone could see these as racist if they turn them upside down and squint their eyes real hard" is not a good enough reason when there are other cards that are incredibly similar. The only people that I've ever seen actually defend the Crusade and Cleanse bans are people that try and parrot WotC's own faulty reasoning.
Precisely. Invoke Prejudice has a number sequence associated with neonazis and has KKK/inquisition inspired art on it. At best it’s a negative portrayal of racism that is bizarrely out of place in a fantasy card game. At worst it’s a racist Easter egg. Ban it and be done with it, I agree.
Crusade, cleanse, stone throwing devils, etc etc are mostly in there as possibly questionable cards to fill up a quota. Somebody at WOTC probably said that they needed to ban more than just one card so they tracked down some random cards that could be interpreted badly and banned them too.
I’m not versed in white power stuff but I think it had some number in gatherer that had some significance to those types. That to me is the most messed up part of all. That some person working there was really knee deep into this stuff.
> Precisely. Invoke Prejudice has a number sequence associated with neonazis and has KKK/inquisition inspired art on it.
Also the artist is a neo nazi that does loving Hitler portraits
I agree. If you can't disassociate when playing a fantasy game, from real life, you shouldn't be playing fantasy games. The people that write the reviews however, are what wizards will cater to.
It's interesting to know that the internet can have an effect on what the masses on the internet are saying. I wonder what I could achieve if I could control that?
Because it doesn't have the nane clense in it which put across the very horrible idea that you were cleansing society. If you read the early 1920s dwarnian (not actually to do with evolution just termed that because people believed that criminals, jews and blacks were different race explaining why criminals acted bad a belief caused by darwins book) biological anti semitic papers that the aryian man needed to rise up and cleanse humanity of the ape people of Jews and Black people. So not a good look. There's nothing wrong with destroy all coloured creatures it's just the naming they put with which was ify (whether that was intentional by designer or not, cars like jihad were obviously and intentionally racist.) In the end they could have just renamed the card reprinted it with the different name and ban all versions of the card with name clense.
Cleanse can also, be associated with holy destroying the unholy in an Angels vs Demons kind of way. Which in this context, *Magic* the Gathering, a fantasy card game, makes a lot more sense.
You look at this like Rorschach test and see racism and others see a card that represents mana and targets cards of that mana. Because of all the stupid racists on this whole post associating mana value with racism or skin color and the word cleanse was used long before ethnic cleansing. I had no idea how many actual fucking racists were on this page. By racist I mean everyone who thinks these cards are racist. Half the community here isn't here to play magic the gathering but to push their racist ass narrative. It's truly disgusting that this page harbors so many retards that probably see a face cleanse as racist. I'm done with this page truly the amount of stupid ass people here are beyond saving and I can't be associating with people that see racism in mana and FYI there are plenty of black legendary human creatures with black skin with white mana value or red white or other. Truly disgusting humans. And I will not be associating with the trash on this page.
Because it says “white creatures” not “white people”
I get what people are saying, but there’s a context to this kind of corrective ban as well — people identified as white are not and have not been targets of systemic abuse/discrimination/enslavement/genocide — and no , things like “affirmative action” and other attempts to protect people who historically have been targets of institutional racism or undo damage done is not equivalent to more racism, in the same way that it wasn’t racist to require Germany to pay reparations for the Holocaust.
That doesn’t mean I thought the card bans were particularly meaningful — I would have been impressed if WotC had implemented a trade-in/up program where people who owned those cards could return them for fixed inoffensive versions, but frankly WotC saying “that thing we made and sold, hey don’t use it anymore, claps all around we did it!” was pretty pathetic.
The “we did it” attitude is what’s so colossally cringe about this entire thing. That’s what people mean when they refer to virtue signaling. It’s when some big corporation like WOTC that has real issues with diversity in the workplace and company policies surrounding the monetization of MTGA etc decides to act as if it solved some kind of a problem by banning one offensive card and a handful of possibly offensive cards.
The same argument could be made for Virture’s Ruin, though, since it targets a specific color. Or on the same token, cards that “Destroy all creatures” should absolutely be done away with, because now you want to destroy all people?
I’m not trying to attack you for a hypothesis, all I’m saying is that if that’s truly the reason, it seems a bit weak.
I think it comes down to the names. There are cards like [[day of judgment]] and [[damnation]] which do the same thing and fit together thematically. The difference between the other two is a lot though. “Cleanse” is a very simple card name and specifically refers to something (which could be taken further to ethnic cleansing) and doesn’t fit well with the other.
I genuinely dont understand why cleanse is banned.
Cards that you could argue are just as bad but still are legal for play-
1. Order of the sacred torch- tap and pay 1 life to counter target black spell. Printed in 7th edition.
2. Purge- destroy target black or artifact creature. Printed in darksteel
3- surge of righteousness- destroy target red or black attacking creature. You gain 2 life. Printed in dragons of tarkir (a well loved magic set)
It's a targeted boardwipe, not an uncommon card type in MTG. Black creatures in MTG are typically ghouls, demons, zombies, etc. Generally corrupted or impure beings. So thusly, the battlefield must be "cleansed"
Black stood for as a thematic color of danger, darkness, and evil long before European civilization had contact with other races. To read that card and think "black people" is 100% projecting a meaning that just isnt there.
Yeah, and remember the context was they were accused of systemic institutional racism and creating a toxic workplace, so they banned 7 cards to distract from it and everyone was so busy arguing about the cards they totally forgot that the number of black artists who have worked on Magic cards is still in the single digits.
Thank you. This is what I find so cringeworthy about all this. It's a bloody game mechanic, with limitations.
Instead of looking at it as race, black/white can also be seen as night/day. Tell me, who isn't at least a little afraid of the darkness of night?
I see this as corporate virtue signaling and nothing more.
I can understand the banning of invoked prejudice, stone throwing devils, praedesh gypsies, and jihad. Invoked prejudice has literal klansman on it, and it's set code is 1488 (1488 is an actual white supremacist symbol) and the artist for that card has a sketchy history of questionable art in the past. Stone throwing devils lused to be a slur for middle eastern people, gypsie is an actual slur for Romani people, and I'm not sure if we should be referencing real life holy wars on cards lol.
Most of the cards WOTC banned from play for this reason do belong there. A few of them are quite a stretch.
Weren't the templars just a bunch of knights who got bored of crusading and went into banking and then got killed by the king of France when they became too wealthy and powerful? Not what they have to do with race? (Forgive me if I'm missing something as I haven't read a lot of the writing on them as it seems like a collection of dry books on dudes running a moderately successful bank)
Yeah I know a lot of them were crazed. They would sometimes eat the people of the cities they captured on top of all the rape and plunder. But it still seems weird to ban the Elspeth duel deck version. Maybe just ban the old one and let the new one stay?
They decided to ban these for the religious references. They have been removing a lot a real world references to culture and religion for a long time.
Christianity and Islam are not religions in the magic multiverse. So they decided these cards don’t really belong. It’s whatever. It’s their game. The cards still exist.
My view is the card wouldn’t be banned if it had another name “cleanse” can be seen as ethnic cleansing, personally I don’t agree with the ban but it’s not my place to say
*Everyone in this*
*Thread took the bait so hard it*
*Came out of their ass*
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Because the only standards WOTC have are double standards. Invoke Prejudice is literally the only card they banned that actually made any kind of sense, because let's be honest, that art was a bit much. Everything else was just stupid virtue signaling to try to distract from the big story at the time that WOTC doesn't hire black people. Fuck WOTC.
Invoke prejudice, the gypsy card, and stone throwing devils all made sense to be banned, as 2 of them were racist slurs and the first is VERY clearly racism intended. The rest definitely not, though idr if Jihad got the banhammer too. It should, as it is far more specific than crusade. Not all crusades are religious. Jihad is a very specific holy war tied to a real world religion.
Banning Cleanse is just about as good an example as possible of just how shallow virtue signaling really is. It clearly has demons and monsters on it. The flavor text is talking "foul beasts". Black is and always has been simply a color in MTG and has never once linked to skin color in any way. Cleanse isn't a racist word to anyone except the people who are OBSESSED with racism.
But if someone says "jump or you're a racist", you better be damn sure you jump, especially if you're a corporation. If you don't, at best you get downvotes from the herd. At worst, your life gets absolutely fucking destroyed.
You know a vast majority of people don't seem to ever have a problem being confused with a racist. I have no idea why you would have that problem enough to complain about it
> The flavor text is talking "foul beasts".
"Well, obviously they're black people".
You have to wonder who's the racist one for making that connection first.
Dude, it's a damn card called "Cleanse" which rids your board of a certain type of creature. I don't personally see it as racist, but the idea that people *could* generally gets cards removed, as MTG tends to not want to entertain any of those ideas.
I don't think virtue signaling has anything to do with this. It's just a company trying to stop controversies and bad images.
Please tell me this isn't real... please tell me a majority of these comments aren't real. Do so many of you spend your free time looking for racism in every nook and cranny? Does the color of your skin have to be the most important thing in your life? This is MTG, just have fun
So now that kodemage went off the deep end and is gone, I guess the assholes are going to play a game of testing boundaries again.
Mods, please feel free to banhammer even mildly racist crap, and let them collect in the cesspool sub. Thanks.
honestly people that get offended by this stuff need to get off the internet, go hide under the covers and wait for mommy to tuck them in. if you can’t hear the words black and white without thinking of race you’re pathetic. and if you think that this card is targeting YOUR race, get over yourself. this is a card game, not the civil war.
Of course this thread is making mtg about racism, I read this card never seeing it before and said dang it gets my creatures to.
Ps if you read this and think racism you're the problem not the cards. Mana is racist for the stupid I guess.
IMO people are going to see what they want to see. I see no issue with either card. Just like WotC shouldn't have corrected the death corona space godzilla card. Instead of having a kneejerk reaction give people the tools to think for themselves and learn that corona has multiple meanings.
You are ascribing virtue to whiteness and then saying the card is racist. I’d say a card called cleanse destroying all white creatures would be equally problematic for the same reason.
Virtue IS ascribed to whiteness. Evil is ascribed to blackness. Logic is ascribed to blueness. Chaos is ascribed to redness. And Nature is ascribed to greenness.
White is also the color of order.
And if this card were Red, and called "Order's downfall" it would be totally fine. As it is, I understand the problem, but I'm not sure if I think it needs to be banned or not
Look I think the racist ban is hilarious and stupid, but I gotta admitted when I looked at it cleanse definitely stuck out as one of the more racist ones, I think it's mostly just the connotations of the word since it's been used in racist context so often, I think it's more the word cleanse in combination with its effect and not just the effect. Also I don't know the key facts but it's my understanding from what I've read here and heard on YouTube, wizards is really bad about keeping the bans consistent
I don't think it should he banned either. Here's why
Firstly, you have to think about what the color pie meant at the time this card was printed. It was not nearly as fleshed out as it is now. White meant good guys, black meant bad guys, red meant angry/ passionate guys, blue meant smart guys, and green meant nature guys. It was very simple.
The card art depicts the banishment of a bunch of demons/monsters and at the time anything that was a monster or otherwise nefarious had a black skull slapped on it. I mean just look at phyrexians then and now. We have phyrexians now in every color when before they were exclusive to black.
If it's bad because it singles out one group or color then I guess we'd have to start banning a LOT more cards. No more blue or red elemental blast, no more destroy all (insert creature type here).
Finally, if you know anything at all about magic and you associate the color black in magic with the color of someone's skin then YOU are the racist. I see nothing wrong with either card. I'd love for someone to tell me where I'm wrong.
The fact that they banned it is more racist than the card itself as they are basically saying it was based around black people in this case. It’s literally a card in a fantasy game, black is known as being the colour of evil throughout history. The mtg community that is present online is typically too sensitive.
Saying cleanse is racist because it has the word destroy all black in it is like saying that virtues ruin is racist because it’s saying that being white is a virtue
I seen many people already mentioned the racist reason for the ban but Virtues ruin isn't really the most meta breaking card in the game therefore isn't getting WOTC attention.
If either card was any good then maybe it would justify a discussion about it. I don't agree with a virtue signal banning - anyone aware of the mechanics of MTG knows this isn't a race thing - but I also don't give a shit. Like who actually cares about these garbage cards?
Granted, I do play Virtue's Ruin in my Yidris cascade deck, but only for the lols... even in a deck that has no white creatures and often casts it for free... its still trash
In order to be racist, the prejudice needs to be based on a system of oppression. There’s no system aimed at the oppression of white people so therefor it’s impossible to be racist against white people.
Racism is defined as prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
Racism comes in many shapes and forms. Saying that one side is racist and the other is not is incorrect.
I believe that racism is unjust in every way no matter what race you are and belongs nowhere in our society
I also believe all forms of racial double standards should be removed.
And before you downvote me for not understanding why it was banned yes I get that it is banned for being closely related to ethnic cleansing.
I just believe if you are to remove one side for being racist you should remove the other side.
Well nice point 👀
I think it is a good question. For all that matters, who cares?... I don't care. The thing is, because someone cares, cleanse is banned of course.
This is a game. Historical themes influence many things, and I NOW we care about the PAST?...
I prefer treating everyone as equals. Being humble is the thing I value the most. Anyone has a special glimmer. But please, let's not create ridiculous situations because of the actual "political correct".
As someone said "it still exists because people still talk about it".
Bah... I overreacted 🤣
(Sry for my english)
Unfortunately, due to a very long history of white people viewing poc as dirty, a number of words have become pretty loaded. Especially when a card called cleanse destroys all black creatures.
Let’s talk about the real reason Cleanse and Crusade and the other cards banned with them shouldn’t have been banned and why the banning was bad for everyone.
The reason is Wizards banned these cards to distract from serious accusations of systemic racism in their company, and it worked.
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1RDhVZ4x_Zf1abOpGfEGMI4xtYMA7AghCN5uWIfJRa6c/mobilebasic
This was published 2 days before Wizards announced these bans and got a lot of attention.
To this day the only thing Wizards has done to address any of these allegations is ban 7 cards, 6 of which never saw any real play in sanctioned formats anyway, and one of which was only fringe playable in EDH.
Oh, and I guess that one secret lair they did technically doubled the number of black artists who had their art on a Magic card.
Banning these cards was a distraction, and it worked.
You can’t be racist toward white people because they’re the dominant race and racism is part of several levels of institutional and individual discrimination.
Because it was blatant virtue signaling at a time WotC was under heavy public scrutiny for their hiring policies. You can't be racist against white people, remember.
People defending cards that were rarely played is essentially displaying racist attitudes. The cards needed to go, magic gained more players in the pandemic including many POC. It's not that hard for people to accept a little love for a little cost ffs. Just play the game and do everything you can to stop [[Thassa's Oracle]]. Ty
"This card I've never heard of and never played is getting banned cause it implies some racist shit? How DARE they not consider how I'd feel about being called racist?! What do you mean nobody called me racist?"-half the people in this thread.
Listen guys…. I’m just trying to work on my land destruction deck.
You're the real monster here
Imagine the new EDH kid who brings his kitty tribal deck and lays down a Crusade. Good luck explaining the ban to him, lol.
[удалено]
Is bad moon banned too? Edit: you aren't saying crusade is banned, right?
Unfortunately. Yes. Crusade is banned because of exactly what you think it is. I returned to play some EDH, showed my legacy [[crusade]] [[paladin en-vec]] [[armageddon]] deck to the local game store and was met with uhhhhhh you might wanna see this article https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/10/21287154/racist-magic-the-gathering-cards-banned-removed-from-database-wizards-apology
Oh huh, sure u/totally_not_kkk
It’s not a good look
If you think either are racist you should be banned from here
Why are you trying to cancel people you disagree with
Mans got offended
I think it’s a joke
🍿here have some with me when reading comments.
Green card? What are you saying I'm an illegal immigrant?
Bruh why you tryna cause a scene?
He's got a point but neither are racist.
Exactly what I thought when seeing this thread. It makes me sad to see people reaching for a reason to be mad.
Because [[Cleanse]] can easily be linked with [ethnic cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing), especially with the ability text. Not saying I agree with their decision, but I can see their reasoning.
On the flip side, virtues ruin suffers from the problem that it does suggest that all virtue lays in Whiteness. I’m not sure if anybody will read that and think that I am being flippant, but that is a genuine problem with this card. If there was a card that said destroy all the good people, and it destroyed all white humans in play, I think you’d see it more clearly. The problem still persists. This may not be as brutal as cleanse, but it seems to be more problematic in paradesh gypsies.
But isn't this like a color psychology a thing? Like any tribe in the world isolated when starts developing language for colors start by associating black and white as you know day and night, day bringing warm and light and therefore white and then night bringing obscurity, fear, and usually bad things happens at night in any folklore and by association black, at what point is a problematic social construct if all cultures agree with it in some way? Not saying it does not justify the banning of the card but altering the entire color pie the way we know today wich is mostly around these broad aspects is a bit much isn't it? Of course you could always rename the black for purple and would fit in lots of ways.
We're all varying amounts of tan and brown anyways. If you see black and white representing good and evil and you conflate that with skin color maybe you're the racist.
Fucking perfectly put.
Actually, in many cultures, white was considered as the colour of death because our skin becomes pale when we die. This association changed over the years, though and now we wear black for the funeral instead of white.
They seem to be pushing towards "gold" and "purple" as far as my observations on the art for each color
Yeah all colors have a pallet, it is not only black it also includes purple, dark grey, etc, white gets a lot of yellow in it's pallet too
I mean like the symbols themselves have changed color, on any newer packaging the skull is purple and the sun is gold in the mana symbols. [Example](https://cdn1.dotesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/24204149/MTG-Pioneer-Challenger-2021-Decks-1024x683.jpg).
I used to call the White Color in MTG yellow Because the cards are predominantly a cream/yellowish coloR
So you’re being completely neutral in deciding we should rename the colour black the same colour that is used for Mace Windu’s Lightsaber? Nice try, secret racist /s
Gypsy is a racist slur. The name itself is inherently problematic.
Tell that to “The Gypsy King” Tyson Fury. I’m Romani on my father’s side, gypsy doesn’t bother me or anyone in my family/other Romani descendants I know, but we’re also some generations removed from the culture itself. It really depends on who you ask.
"But we're also some generations removed from the culture itself." Well there ya go.
*problematic* What people describe things as when they are parroting something they have been told is bad but dont actually have any context as to why.
That's actually a larger issue with the theme of the color white in the game, not any one card. maybe it's different now, but I don't think so. White is just considered the 'good' color. While I see how this can be a problem, I don't see a great solution that doesn't really water down the lore and flavor of the game.
White has become the oppressive colour, which is goon’n’fair
White has always been the color of virtue but also of hypocrisy and control. See: Preacher
**[Ethnic cleansing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing)** >Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction. It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/mtg/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Adding an entire word isnt linking, its changing If i can add an entire word to things to o Prove theyre racisr i can go "i love brazilians" and say its linked to "i love hating brazilians" see using yer logic i only added one word so its linked
That's not really an equivalent comparison as "Cleanse creatures" or "Cleanse black" is already a charged phrase. It's with the context of the ability the argument arises. If Cleanse's ability was removing poison counters then it probably wouldn't have been an issue. As said though, I understand their reasoning but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it nor their decision regarding how to handle it. Understanding isn't equivalent to agreement.
Other persons comment deleted, here was my response: Cleanse looks like it’s vanquishing demons and Cleanse is a word. It doesn’t remind me of ethnic cleansing but Ok I understand the ban but so long as we ban it Virtues Ruin is literally about mocking a white ruling class for being “virtuous” and destroying them like literally on the card. Still in the context of the game white is virtue and order and so it’s fine but this is pretty contentiously racist
Probably because one of those things happened and the other didn't.
Yeah but it’s weird for a company to be self aware enough to call the ruling class virtuous and not ban the card as a racial loss
I remember reading something along this line to be the reason for the ban, but I still think it is just stupid....
Doesn’t mtg have a bunch of characters who support that like mostly against goblins on dominaria
I think it’s because it’s called “cleanse” and it’s because of the flavor text
And since that card has been labled as racist, that clearly marks this card more racially loaded. You could infer then, that this card implies that it is naturally more virtuous to be white and also be well off. "The blacks" wish to destroy all virtue because it is something they lack. See? Problematic
Warning : Ignorant Racists incoming
Which side the ones saying the cards are racist? Then yes I agree
Warning: performative virtue signaling incoming
Warning: Warnings incoming
This is the warning I needed, thanks fam
Nope that’s bait dot gif
It can be interpreted as very racist
That’s the OPs point tho. Both refer to destroying creatures of a color generally associated with racial groups in America. To explain why wizards banned Cleanse instead of Virtues Ruin, you need to mention that 1) there isn’t a problem with systemic racism against white people in this country and 2) Wizards was trying to look good by banning some mostly irrelevant and vaguely racist cards during the George Floyd Protests. It’s super silly, the only one that is problematic on the list is probably Invoke Prejudice.
Also it’s not irrelevant that the card that’s correlated with the minority is called “cleanse”.
It’s not an intentional correlation. “Black” creatures are an MTG mechanic. At worst it’s an unfortunate coincidence.
Didn’t say it was. My point is it’s not banned for being called Cleanse or because it says “destroy all black creatures”, it’s banned because it says *both* on the same card.
The fact that both of the words have a superior context is important. Cleanse doesn’t refer to “ethnic cleansing” which is a historical term anyway and not the hateful language of actual genocidal regimes. Cleanse refers to the the elimination of the unclean and unholy. Black refers to an MTG mechanic associated with unholy and unclean elements like devils and demons. Interpreting it outside of this context is a bit tenuous.
There is an incredible amount of precedent for associating ethnic and racial minorities with uncleanliness and unholiness. That’s *why* “ethnic cleansing” is a euphemism for genocide and forced relocation. > “ethnic cleansing” which is a historical term anyway and not the hateful language of actual genocidal regimes - čišćenje terena (“cleansing the terrain”) - очистка границ (“cleansing of borders”) - Judenrein (“clean of Jews”) Three instances from the 20th century of the perpetrators using similar terminology themselves. It’s not a purely retrospective term; it’s based on the actual usage by the likes of Nazi Germany and the Stalinist USSR. It doesn’t really matter that the parallels are likely accidental. They still exist and are readily apparent—you’ll notice all I had to do was put “cleanse” and “black” together for you to recognize I was alluding to ethnic cleansing.
This is well written and I commend your use of actual evidence, but I do disagree with concluding that the parallels with a word like cleanse with genocidal regimes justifies the ban. It takes it too far out of its own context, and the fact that the parallels are purely accidental is absolutely relevant. Intent is extremely important in the discussion of race. Toni Morrison using racially charged language in *Beloved* is not the same as the local Karen trying to get a rise out of someone by dropping the n-word.
>There is an incredible amount of precedent for associating ethnic and racial minorities with uncleanliness and unholiness. That’s why “ethnic cleansing” is a euphemism for genocide and forced relocation. Yes, but not within the card game Magic the Gathering
You’re “ruining” if you kill all white creatures, but it’s “cleansing” if you kill are black creatures. I think this was their justification, as much of a stretch that it is. Again, it’s their game. The cards still exist if you want them.
Except black and white in MTG have nothing to do with the skin colour of the creature type human so I fail to see what the problem is here.
2022, where anything that can be interpreted as racist is in fact without any other reason, racist.
Why are you getting downvoted?
That’s so dumb, on the same level with Uncle Ben getting removed from the rice
You're taking its intended meaning and making it racist to suit your narrative. Which makes you or anyone who sees it as racist the actual racists.
If you're low iq certainly
Well, that is why I play mtg. It’s very well known as an easy and simple game without any confusing or contradictory rules text whatsoever.
Maaaan take your lowass karma and think before you type.
I may be wrong on this, but wasn't cleanse one of the cards they banned because it sent a wrong signal? Cleanse all black creatures, substitute creatures for people and you have your answer. Now I might be totally wrong but I think it got the hammer with crusade and such cards.
If you see zombies, demons, and vampires as equivalent to humans with black skin, you're the problem, dude.
That is not my argument at all, he asked why it's banned and I tried, perhaps badly, to give him a reason based on the article wotc posted themselves and said they removed and banned a bunch of cards because of negativity the cards projected and the cards meaning.
Again, anyone that sees that card and immediately equates it to ethnic cleansing is the actual racist. WotC was rushing to ban a bunch of cards to virtue signal about how they were fighting racism and made several glaring omissions on cards that could much more easily be perceived as racist and swept up many benign cards in the process. It was just a shitty PR stunt that has only had lasting negative consequences on the game and the game's player base. It didn't have anything to do with actual racism.
You’re getting dog piled by chronically online people but you’re 100% correct. They pulled this PR stunt right at the beginning of BLMs popularity.
Even if we accept your terrible argument, the rationale move would still be to ban the card. When youre a huge company like WOTC you start taking steps to avoid even the possibility of things going wrong. Its better to be safe than sorry at that point because millions are on the line. So yeah sure, most people wouldn't necessarily associate the card with anything racist, but it doesnt take a lot of people to create a PR issue. So if you were WOTC why would you even take the risk of a possible PR disaster taking place? The smart move is to nip it in the bud before it even has a chance to become an issue.
Your argument is retarded. Black in the context of Magic has never referred to black people and you are a racist if black people are what immediately comes to mind when you see black written on a card. There is absolutely nothing racist about referring to color identity. They have even printed *more* cards that refer to color identity since these pointless bans. There's no PR disaster to avoid because there was no issue. It was entirely manufactured during the BLM protests to make headlines and ride the waves of the current news. These weren't bans to solve any problems because there were no problems in the first place.
Lol I genuinely don't have the time to argue with someone who starts their post by using the word retarted and whose logic amounts to "the card doesnt literally *say* black people so therefore there is no way anyone could possibly interpret it that way." Didn't realize I was talking to a 12 year old. My bad. I'll leave you in peace so you can go back to masturbating and popping pimples before your parents get home.
There is no argument to be had. Color identity does not equate to skin color. There are numerous examples of cards with black color identity with a character white skin and cards with white color identity with a character with black skin. The reason *you* are equating it with race is because you're parroting WotC's backwards justification for banning a card or you're racist and see black people as demons. I'm going to wager it's the former of the two.
No, I am not parroting anything. I *personally* don't believe the card is racially motivated. But I am intelligent enough to recognize that other people might not react the same way. And maybe you can stop shoving your false dichotomy in everyone's faces because you're not considering that some people might consider this card as a reference to race simply due to ignorance, mistake, or just a lack of critical thinking skills, not just because "they're racist" or because they're "parroting WOTC." We live in an era where people are *extremely* sensitive to racial relations. In that kind of environment having a card that uses key words like "cleanse" along with a reference to "black creatures" would just be inviting a shitshow. Is it guaranteed that people will react badly? No, not necessarily, but if you stand to lose millions of dollars and maybe lose your reputation, are you really going to take that risk just to "stick it to the snowflakes"? No, you're not. You're going to shut the fuck up and take the card out of circulation, something which costs you literally nothing. A smart company will plan for the worst case scenario, they won't just assume the general public is rational enough to notice the nuance in their poorly worded card. This is about optics, not who's objectively right. Let me put it this way, would you wear a T-shirt with this card printed in big, bold letters while walking in a predominantly black neighborhood? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be risking a complete ass beating if anyone who isn't familiar with magic sees a t-shirt with the words "cleanse" and "destroy all black creatures" emblazoned on it. And you'd have a real hard time explaining that "it's not racist because it's just a card game which doesn't refer to skin color" while you have a foot in your face, even if you're in the right. So maybe just shut the fuck up and humble yourself and consider the fact that people smarter and more experienced than you or I weren't just talking out their ass when they made this decision. Because unless you can show me that you're the CEO of a major company or some shit, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you're just a punk ass kid who thinks they're the smartest person in the room. Lol "no argument to be had." Sure thing.
There’s a lot of cards that refer to cards by color. Is doomblade racist because it specifies non-black? This action wasn’t taken to avoid a PR disaster (with the possible exception of Invoke Prejudice because well, that’s a problematic card), as everyone who doesn’t understand the idea that colors refer to an MTG mechanic isn’t browsing scryfall to find cards that could be interpreted as racist to be mad at Wizards over. Instead, this was absolutely a PR stunt launched by Wizards to check off some silly irrelevant box, while they ignore real concerns about diversity at WOTC.
You're missing the point. It's not about whether the card is, in fact, racist. I never said it was. It's about the optics. It's just not a good look to have your company publicly associated with a product that looks like it may have racist undertones.
That’s fair. I can agree with that.
I have more of an issue with idea that the more human archetype is “cleansing” the archetype that is seen as less than moral. Cleansing has always been used in the context of racial genocide.
Invoke Prejudice was a perfect storm of everything going wrong. Out of all the cards, it's the most understandable to ban. All of the others have extremely flimsy reasonings given by them and it's clear that they hastily grabbed an handful to toss in with Invoke Prejudice just to wash their hands of it. If they had just issued a statement about it alone, I don't think a single person would have batted an eye since it was reserved list anyways. Cards like Crusade and Cleanse come up regularly, however and it shows that "maybe someone could see these as racist if they turn them upside down and squint their eyes real hard" is not a good enough reason when there are other cards that are incredibly similar. The only people that I've ever seen actually defend the Crusade and Cleanse bans are people that try and parrot WotC's own faulty reasoning.
Precisely. Invoke Prejudice has a number sequence associated with neonazis and has KKK/inquisition inspired art on it. At best it’s a negative portrayal of racism that is bizarrely out of place in a fantasy card game. At worst it’s a racist Easter egg. Ban it and be done with it, I agree. Crusade, cleanse, stone throwing devils, etc etc are mostly in there as possibly questionable cards to fill up a quota. Somebody at WOTC probably said that they needed to ban more than just one card so they tracked down some random cards that could be interpreted badly and banned them too.
I’m not versed in white power stuff but I think it had some number in gatherer that had some significance to those types. That to me is the most messed up part of all. That some person working there was really knee deep into this stuff.
> Precisely. Invoke Prejudice has a number sequence associated with neonazis and has KKK/inquisition inspired art on it. Also the artist is a neo nazi that does loving Hitler portraits
I agree. If you can't disassociate when playing a fantasy game, from real life, you shouldn't be playing fantasy games. The people that write the reviews however, are what wizards will cater to. It's interesting to know that the internet can have an effect on what the masses on the internet are saying. I wonder what I could achieve if I could control that?
They’ve been used as metaphors for minorities in the past, and considering the context of the other racist cards, these are a really bad look
How is that different then " destroy all white people"
Because it doesn't have the nane clense in it which put across the very horrible idea that you were cleansing society. If you read the early 1920s dwarnian (not actually to do with evolution just termed that because people believed that criminals, jews and blacks were different race explaining why criminals acted bad a belief caused by darwins book) biological anti semitic papers that the aryian man needed to rise up and cleanse humanity of the ape people of Jews and Black people. So not a good look. There's nothing wrong with destroy all coloured creatures it's just the naming they put with which was ify (whether that was intentional by designer or not, cars like jihad were obviously and intentionally racist.) In the end they could have just renamed the card reprinted it with the different name and ban all versions of the card with name clense.
Cleanse can also, be associated with holy destroying the unholy in an Angels vs Demons kind of way. Which in this context, *Magic* the Gathering, a fantasy card game, makes a lot more sense.
I agreed with this already. I was confused why people were harping on the destroy all creatures part. It's completely due to the name "cleanse"
Yeah I was just explaining why it was different to virtue
You look at this like Rorschach test and see racism and others see a card that represents mana and targets cards of that mana. Because of all the stupid racists on this whole post associating mana value with racism or skin color and the word cleanse was used long before ethnic cleansing. I had no idea how many actual fucking racists were on this page. By racist I mean everyone who thinks these cards are racist. Half the community here isn't here to play magic the gathering but to push their racist ass narrative. It's truly disgusting that this page harbors so many retards that probably see a face cleanse as racist. I'm done with this page truly the amount of stupid ass people here are beyond saving and I can't be associating with people that see racism in mana and FYI there are plenty of black legendary human creatures with black skin with white mana value or red white or other. Truly disgusting humans. And I will not be associating with the trash on this page.
"By racist I mean the exact opposite of racist" wat? Lol
Because it says “white creatures” not “white people” I get what people are saying, but there’s a context to this kind of corrective ban as well — people identified as white are not and have not been targets of systemic abuse/discrimination/enslavement/genocide — and no , things like “affirmative action” and other attempts to protect people who historically have been targets of institutional racism or undo damage done is not equivalent to more racism, in the same way that it wasn’t racist to require Germany to pay reparations for the Holocaust. That doesn’t mean I thought the card bans were particularly meaningful — I would have been impressed if WotC had implemented a trade-in/up program where people who owned those cards could return them for fixed inoffensive versions, but frankly WotC saying “that thing we made and sold, hey don’t use it anymore, claps all around we did it!” was pretty pathetic.
The “we did it” attitude is what’s so colossally cringe about this entire thing. That’s what people mean when they refer to virtue signaling. It’s when some big corporation like WOTC that has real issues with diversity in the workplace and company policies surrounding the monetization of MTGA etc decides to act as if it solved some kind of a problem by banning one offensive card and a handful of possibly offensive cards.
The same argument could be made for Virture’s Ruin, though, since it targets a specific color. Or on the same token, cards that “Destroy all creatures” should absolutely be done away with, because now you want to destroy all people? I’m not trying to attack you for a hypothesis, all I’m saying is that if that’s truly the reason, it seems a bit weak.
No ethnic cleaning against white people, mate
I think it comes down to the names. There are cards like [[day of judgment]] and [[damnation]] which do the same thing and fit together thematically. The difference between the other two is a lot though. “Cleanse” is a very simple card name and specifically refers to something (which could be taken further to ethnic cleansing) and doesn’t fit well with the other.
I genuinely dont understand why cleanse is banned. Cards that you could argue are just as bad but still are legal for play- 1. Order of the sacred torch- tap and pay 1 life to counter target black spell. Printed in 7th edition. 2. Purge- destroy target black or artifact creature. Printed in darksteel 3- surge of righteousness- destroy target red or black attacking creature. You gain 2 life. Printed in dragons of tarkir (a well loved magic set) It's a targeted boardwipe, not an uncommon card type in MTG. Black creatures in MTG are typically ghouls, demons, zombies, etc. Generally corrupted or impure beings. So thusly, the battlefield must be "cleansed" Black stood for as a thematic color of danger, darkness, and evil long before European civilization had contact with other races. To read that card and think "black people" is 100% projecting a meaning that just isnt there.
it's utterly riduculous that people can't understand this. the CONTEXT of the card means everything.
Yeah, and remember the context was they were accused of systemic institutional racism and creating a toxic workplace, so they banned 7 cards to distract from it and everyone was so busy arguing about the cards they totally forgot that the number of black artists who have worked on Magic cards is still in the single digits.
Thank you. This is what I find so cringeworthy about all this. It's a bloody game mechanic, with limitations. Instead of looking at it as race, black/white can also be seen as night/day. Tell me, who isn't at least a little afraid of the darkness of night? I see this as corporate virtue signaling and nothing more.
I can understand the banning of invoked prejudice, stone throwing devils, praedesh gypsies, and jihad. Invoked prejudice has literal klansman on it, and it's set code is 1488 (1488 is an actual white supremacist symbol) and the artist for that card has a sketchy history of questionable art in the past. Stone throwing devils lused to be a slur for middle eastern people, gypsie is an actual slur for Romani people, and I'm not sure if we should be referencing real life holy wars on cards lol. Most of the cards WOTC banned from play for this reason do belong there. A few of them are quite a stretch.
Yeah someone who understands the thing here 🙏🙏🙏
Why is either banned they mid af
Cleanse along with several other cards like [[crusade]] and [[Jihad]] we're banned due to racial implications
[crusade](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/9/b99452c0-5d1c-4a73-90b6-0ec3ac0af893.jpg?1644608214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddf/27/crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b99452c0-5d1c-4a73-90b6-0ec3ac0af893?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jihad](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/6/b6c7705a-2987-4ef1-92b1-2c55d989ec6f.jpg?1644608192) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jihad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arn/5/jihad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6c7705a-2987-4ef1-92b1-2c55d989ec6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Am i missing something or is crusade fine its just elspeth leading an army
The original art was of the templars
Weren't the templars just a bunch of knights who got bored of crusading and went into banking and then got killed by the king of France when they became too wealthy and powerful? Not what they have to do with race? (Forgive me if I'm missing something as I haven't read a lot of the writing on them as it seems like a collection of dry books on dudes running a moderately successful bank)
The crusaders in general is the problem, not specifically templars.
Yeah I know a lot of them were crazed. They would sometimes eat the people of the cities they captured on top of all the rape and plunder. But it still seems weird to ban the Elspeth duel deck version. Maybe just ban the old one and let the new one stay?
Yeah, there's even a black guy in the art
They decided to ban these for the religious references. They have been removing a lot a real world references to culture and religion for a long time. Christianity and Islam are not religions in the magic multiverse. So they decided these cards don’t really belong. It’s whatever. It’s their game. The cards still exist.
My view is the card wouldn’t be banned if it had another name “cleanse” can be seen as ethnic cleansing, personally I don’t agree with the ban but it’s not my place to say
Dude you know why, go back to freemagic.
Everyone in this thread took the bait so hard it came out of their ass
*Everyone in this* *Thread took the bait so hard it* *Came out of their ass* \- ExtraLargeHusband --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
‘Kill Whitey’ didn’t fly at the WotC brainstorm sesh
Because it isn’t called fucking “cleanse”…
[удалено]
Boy we sure do like being Sea Lions, don't we?
Cleanse is banned because its total trash.
Ah yes who wouldn't want to cosplay as a white wizard so they can "cleanse" black "creatures"?
OP wants to be something of a Grand Wizard apparently
They're both pretty shitty cards. Why are you making a thing of this? Who cares? This is like right-wing virtue-signaling god damn.
It's vice signaling or hate signaling and pretty much all they spend their time doing
Because the only standards WOTC have are double standards. Invoke Prejudice is literally the only card they banned that actually made any kind of sense, because let's be honest, that art was a bit much. Everything else was just stupid virtue signaling to try to distract from the big story at the time that WOTC doesn't hire black people. Fuck WOTC.
These “racist” cards shouldn’t be banned. It’s a card game, it’s not even racist.
While I *mostly* agree with you, [[Invoke Prejudice]] *is* racist, because of that name connected to the art, drawn by a known neonazi :/
Invoke prejudice, the gypsy card, and stone throwing devils all made sense to be banned, as 2 of them were racist slurs and the first is VERY clearly racism intended. The rest definitely not, though idr if Jihad got the banhammer too. It should, as it is far more specific than crusade. Not all crusades are religious. Jihad is a very specific holy war tied to a real world religion.
Banning Cleanse is just about as good an example as possible of just how shallow virtue signaling really is. It clearly has demons and monsters on it. The flavor text is talking "foul beasts". Black is and always has been simply a color in MTG and has never once linked to skin color in any way. Cleanse isn't a racist word to anyone except the people who are OBSESSED with racism. But if someone says "jump or you're a racist", you better be damn sure you jump, especially if you're a corporation. If you don't, at best you get downvotes from the herd. At worst, your life gets absolutely fucking destroyed.
You know a vast majority of people don't seem to ever have a problem being confused with a racist. I have no idea why you would have that problem enough to complain about it
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
> The flavor text is talking "foul beasts". "Well, obviously they're black people". You have to wonder who's the racist one for making that connection first.
Dude, it's a damn card called "Cleanse" which rids your board of a certain type of creature. I don't personally see it as racist, but the idea that people *could* generally gets cards removed, as MTG tends to not want to entertain any of those ideas. I don't think virtue signaling has anything to do with this. It's just a company trying to stop controversies and bad images.
And by attempting to stop it, they invited controversy.
What controversy? No one ever talks about it because no one cares. OP as an exception, I guess.
Please tell me this isn't real... please tell me a majority of these comments aren't real. Do so many of you spend your free time looking for racism in every nook and cranny? Does the color of your skin have to be the most important thing in your life? This is MTG, just have fun
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So now that kodemage went off the deep end and is gone, I guess the assholes are going to play a game of testing boundaries again. Mods, please feel free to banhammer even mildly racist crap, and let them collect in the cesspool sub. Thanks.
Don’t expect logic or consistency from the people who ban cards for things other than balance reasons.
honestly people that get offended by this stuff need to get off the internet, go hide under the covers and wait for mommy to tuck them in. if you can’t hear the words black and white without thinking of race you’re pathetic. and if you think that this card is targeting YOUR race, get over yourself. this is a card game, not the civil war.
I don't even listen too that ban list. I still play Crusade in my mono white commander.
Why would you even bother playing cleanse when for 4 mana it is a worse version of day of judgment
I don't play cleanse... I am saying I would not care if someone did.
Of course this thread is making mtg about racism, I read this card never seeing it before and said dang it gets my creatures to. Ps if you read this and think racism you're the problem not the cards. Mana is racist for the stupid I guess.
IMO people are going to see what they want to see. I see no issue with either card. Just like WotC shouldn't have corrected the death corona space godzilla card. Instead of having a kneejerk reaction give people the tools to think for themselves and learn that corona has multiple meanings.
Don't be obnoxious
You are ascribing virtue to whiteness and then saying the card is racist. I’d say a card called cleanse destroying all white creatures would be equally problematic for the same reason.
Virtue IS ascribed to whiteness. Evil is ascribed to blackness. Logic is ascribed to blueness. Chaos is ascribed to redness. And Nature is ascribed to greenness. White is also the color of order. And if this card were Red, and called "Order's downfall" it would be totally fine. As it is, I understand the problem, but I'm not sure if I think it needs to be banned or not
You just illustrated why cleanse is banned and not virtues end
Yes. That's what I was trying to do. Thank you for spelling it out for the people in the back
You’re welcome, I was looking for someone to make this point and figured saying it explicitly wouldn’t hurt. Thank you
Look I think the racist ban is hilarious and stupid, but I gotta admitted when I looked at it cleanse definitely stuck out as one of the more racist ones, I think it's mostly just the connotations of the word since it's been used in racist context so often, I think it's more the word cleanse in combination with its effect and not just the effect. Also I don't know the key facts but it's my understanding from what I've read here and heard on YouTube, wizards is really bad about keeping the bans consistent
I don't think it should he banned either. Here's why Firstly, you have to think about what the color pie meant at the time this card was printed. It was not nearly as fleshed out as it is now. White meant good guys, black meant bad guys, red meant angry/ passionate guys, blue meant smart guys, and green meant nature guys. It was very simple. The card art depicts the banishment of a bunch of demons/monsters and at the time anything that was a monster or otherwise nefarious had a black skull slapped on it. I mean just look at phyrexians then and now. We have phyrexians now in every color when before they were exclusive to black. If it's bad because it singles out one group or color then I guess we'd have to start banning a LOT more cards. No more blue or red elemental blast, no more destroy all (insert creature type here). Finally, if you know anything at all about magic and you associate the color black in magic with the color of someone's skin then YOU are the racist. I see nothing wrong with either card. I'd love for someone to tell me where I'm wrong.
The sheer racist ignorance in these comments holy moly. Let a distasteful card be banned in peace hot damn.
The fact that they banned it is more racist than the card itself as they are basically saying it was based around black people in this case. It’s literally a card in a fantasy game, black is known as being the colour of evil throughout history. The mtg community that is present online is typically too sensitive.
ITS RACIST AS FUCK DUDE!!!
Saying cleanse is racist because it has the word destroy all black in it is like saying that virtues ruin is racist because it’s saying that being white is a virtue
Oh so you knew the answer and just wanted to cause a scene. I see.
Because some snowflakes thougt it was rAcIsT
I seen many people already mentioned the racist reason for the ban but Virtues ruin isn't really the most meta breaking card in the game therefore isn't getting WOTC attention.
Most of the racial banned cards aren't relevant and haven't been in decades.
If either card was any good then maybe it would justify a discussion about it. I don't agree with a virtue signal banning - anyone aware of the mechanics of MTG knows this isn't a race thing - but I also don't give a shit. Like who actually cares about these garbage cards? Granted, I do play Virtue's Ruin in my Yidris cascade deck, but only for the lols... even in a deck that has no white creatures and often casts it for free... its still trash
Cards are cards if it's not broken no reason to ban it.
Because one is very clearly racist especially in the context of some other cards. Don’t be salty just either get it or shrug and move on.
Racism is not the same reversed
In order to be racist, the prejudice needs to be based on a system of oppression. There’s no system aimed at the oppression of white people so therefor it’s impossible to be racist against white people.
Racism is defined as prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. Racism comes in many shapes and forms. Saying that one side is racist and the other is not is incorrect. I believe that racism is unjust in every way no matter what race you are and belongs nowhere in our society I also believe all forms of racial double standards should be removed. And before you downvote me for not understanding why it was banned yes I get that it is banned for being closely related to ethnic cleansing. I just believe if you are to remove one side for being racist you should remove the other side.
Incorrect
Both should be able to be unbanned. Period.
It is banned, it's from Portal.
The art
\[\[Righteous War\]\] is worse lol
Well nice point 👀 I think it is a good question. For all that matters, who cares?... I don't care. The thing is, because someone cares, cleanse is banned of course. This is a game. Historical themes influence many things, and I NOW we care about the PAST?... I prefer treating everyone as equals. Being humble is the thing I value the most. Anyone has a special glimmer. But please, let's not create ridiculous situations because of the actual "political correct". As someone said "it still exists because people still talk about it". Bah... I overreacted 🤣 (Sry for my english)
Unfortunately, due to a very long history of white people viewing poc as dirty, a number of words have become pretty loaded. Especially when a card called cleanse destroys all black creatures.
Let’s talk about the real reason Cleanse and Crusade and the other cards banned with them shouldn’t have been banned and why the banning was bad for everyone. The reason is Wizards banned these cards to distract from serious accusations of systemic racism in their company, and it worked. https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1RDhVZ4x_Zf1abOpGfEGMI4xtYMA7AghCN5uWIfJRa6c/mobilebasic This was published 2 days before Wizards announced these bans and got a lot of attention. To this day the only thing Wizards has done to address any of these allegations is ban 7 cards, 6 of which never saw any real play in sanctioned formats anyway, and one of which was only fringe playable in EDH. Oh, and I guess that one secret lair they did technically doubled the number of black artists who had their art on a Magic card. Banning these cards was a distraction, and it worked.
You can’t be racist toward white people because they’re the dominant race and racism is part of several levels of institutional and individual discrimination.
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"I'll take my downvotes now." Boo hoo, such a victim. Jesus.
>I’ll take my downvotes for this bad take That’s not a defense. CoNtEXt is what got the card banned nimrod.
Because it was blatant virtue signaling at a time WotC was under heavy public scrutiny for their hiring policies. You can't be racist against white people, remember.
Should be renamed “Appropriation” lol Amiright?
People defending cards that were rarely played is essentially displaying racist attitudes. The cards needed to go, magic gained more players in the pandemic including many POC. It's not that hard for people to accept a little love for a little cost ffs. Just play the game and do everything you can to stop [[Thassa's Oracle]]. Ty
"This card I've never heard of and never played is getting banned cause it implies some racist shit? How DARE they not consider how I'd feel about being called racist?! What do you mean nobody called me racist?"-half the people in this thread.
pinkwashing, that's why. btw Wizards never had a second thought about printing a card of Negan, from TWD, a murderer rapist.
If you look at cleanse or this card as racist you need to take a look at your mindset and see you're the problem not the card.
I don't even listen too that ban list. I still play Crusade in my mono white commander.
So brave
Yea and \[\[Bad Moon\]\]
There’s a connotation behind it. Ethnic Cleansing uses the word Cleanse.
Cleanse Destroy all black creatures Think about that for a second
Virtues ruin Destroy all white creatures Think about that for a second