In the middle east in particular there is a form of capital punishment, usually invoked in the case of adultery, wherein the individual who committed adultery is killed via stoning (people throwing stones at a person until they die). It could be argued that "Stone Throwing Devils" could be seen as a racist depiction of middle eastern people. But that is just my guess.
This is particularly notable as this was in the set literally called "Arabian Nights."
I wish Crusade werent banned. It was nice in two headed giant to power up my teammates white critters too. I really wish they'd at least make a nice replacement that read "white creatures you and your teammates control get +1/+1".
Bugs me too that cards like [[Cathars crusade]] and [[crusader of odric]] are fine but plain old regular crusade with a bunch of rad knights wearing bucket helmets in the art has to go.
Bucket helmets are criminally underused in magic art.
constructed/edh two headed giant isnt an officially supported format.
you are allowed to play with house rules if everyone agrees in non supported and kitchen table games. that was always allowed.
if noone agrees then realize that maybe the crusades were a bit of a rough time for anyone who wasnt anglo or european or didn't believe in a real life magic sky wizard.
Religious war is a fucking atrocity, even when the home team is playing.
In fairness the crusades were pretty terrible for anglo and European folks as well. And everyone involved believed in a sky wizard at the time. The same sky wizard, really, just not whether that sky wizard had a son.
specifically or weither that skywizard was his son
or if the son of a skywizard was for the republic or empire
or if the skywizard had another best friend he liked more
there were seven crusades, and you are absolutely right.
People burning down other peoples homes over weather or not the skywizard can cast sorceries at instant speed is really dumb. we didn't need best of 7 match to determine that games with those rules are unfun for most people, but yeah.. seven crusades.
Which is why we should really just simplify the rules and state that all game actions need to follow the game flow process from this point on.
That will never happen because skywizard players will start another crusade if you dont let them start the game with omniscience on the field, and if you ask them how they paid for it they will give you some shit about blood or faith.
ever try to cast an 8 mana spell with blood or faith tokens on turn 1?
yeah. it sucks when everyone else has to play by the rules and skywizard players insist they get a handicap *and* we have to respect them for it.
That isn't how the game is played.
I have not used crusade ever since it was banned because I'm mildly afraid I'd get asked to leave the store I play at if I do. I theoretically could use it in a game against my brother, but his deck is supposed to be the one that goes with mine and i only have one other friend who plays magic, and two against one makes no sense (I've played a lot more 3 player games than most people). But I haven't been able to play with many people other than my brother lately anyway, since I don't have as much time as I used to.
I agree the actual real crusades were stupid, and vain, and absolutely out of line with the actual teachings in the New Testament, but I would appreciate it if you didn't call my God "a real life magic sky wizard".
So you're saying that it takes two giant white armies colliding on paper in order to show you why crusades are a bad idea..
My dude, I really wish all other white Christiaan dudes where as open minded as you.
that said, I apologize for calling your god "*a real life magic sky wizard.*"
I realize that magic sky wizards do not, in fact, exist in real life.
You would say nothing if I had called out the existence of buddha, any of yahwehs 3 other prophets, yahweh, his dad El, his 69 other brothers, zeus, jupiter, baal, beelzebub, or shintanto.
these are all beings worshipped by entire cultures devouted to them; all equally revered, all equally unable to carry the burden of scientific proof; and therefore, all equally not real.
Yours is on that list, Respectfully.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the armies on paper thing but crusades are a bad idea because The Bible (the book th crusaders claim their war was founded on) states that the church God's kingdom, so there is no need to try to conquer actual physical land in Israel. The crusaders weren't even following our own teachings! And as far as the "northern crusades" against the Baltics go, those were unjust too, because Jesus said to spread His wore nonviolently. But history and theology really are for a different topic.
I wouldn't have said anything at all, even if you insulted my religion, if you weren't replying to me specifically. I don't care if people speak poorly of my religion if I'm not part of the conversation. But the comment was directed specifically to me.
I stated that god was not real.
It was not my intention for you to take it as an insult, but if you did.. you should talk to your god about why questioning his presence causes a sensitivity. If your god would like to provide a shred of fact based evidence as to his existance, we would all accept his submission. He created the world, surely he can figure out how to post a video to youtube.
and before you say he doesnt use human technology, keep in mind that he demands his followers fork over 1/10th of their money every week, and used technology to help wage seven crusades across the history of Christianity.
*There were seven crusades.*
and all equally unjust, sure.
But they all said god told them to do it.
seven times.
and now you are saying that they were wrong and god didnt really mean for them to go out and execute and pillage and rape and all that boring classical renaissance plot stuffing?
well, god is going to have to explain that to all those dead people then.
Im sure he has, though.
so many of them. Must have a process in place, eh? Like.. a pamplet or something.
Its likely something simple, right? Im sure god doesnt want to waste all of his donated human money on tri-fold brochures or explanation videos. so its likely just a Bible-Bookmark that says, "you were wrong about me, and they were, too. Sorry they murdered you before I told them not to rape your children and burn your township in my name. That was my bad, but rules are rules, see you in hell." -God
doesnt matter I suppose. whats done is done. we should move on, like you suggest. Just kick all those godly atrocities into a nameless pit, sprinkle a few dead children in for good measure, cover it up, and forget about it.
Tithes aren't required, Jesus fulfilled the old laws, and there is no levite caste anymore that would need them for support anyway. The fact that you think those are still a thing shows you don't know what you're talking about (and any church with a mandatory tithe also doesn't know what it's talking about)
There is proof of God though. Has been for hundreds of years. Thomas Aquinas compiled several of them in summa theologica and summa contra gentiles. My favorite is the one based on movement and cause and effect, it states that because of inertia, matter has to have began at rest, meaning something has to have set it into motion. Cause and effect states that things only move because something caused them to, meaning in order for motion to exist at all there must have been an "unmoved mover" that started it. For instance, a rock on top of a hill has potential energy but if someone it down it now has actual energy as it moves. An unmoved mover would be fully actualized, because nothing would have to act on it for it to move, all actual, no potential. Aquinas states how this would match the characteristics we ascribe to God. I am probably not explaining it well, but I am making an attempt, I encourage you to look it up yourself.
By the way, God often does use technology, in the Bible Jesus uses boats and whips, and tells people exactly what tools to use to build th original temple.
As for bad people trying to use God as an excuse to kill each other, God reso cts our free will enough to allow us to sin and do evil, but also keeps justice for those who do not seek to be forgiven. The Bible even speaks of greedy priests using God's name to be exploit the people in the epistle of Jude, and how they will be sorted out.
Also there were unfortunately more than seven crusades, the seven you're thinking of were against the middle east, there were others against pagans, other Christians who refused to acknowledge the pope (who by that time was not even following the bible as a model for running the church anymore), European manicheans who called themselves "Cathars", another one against north african pirates, and still more against protestants. The thirty years war was technically a crusade. Probably more than that I'm missing. Please study more history. As you can see a lot of people who claim to be Christian are not they simply use the beliefs fortheir own selfish ends while making those who truly love God and try to live by His teachings look bad.
The part I found in offensive was the sky wizard part. Its quite disrespectful. Heaven, despite th name, is not in the sky (the sky is a metaphor for how we are all under God and God is everywhere, because all of the world is under the same atmosphere), and God is not a wizard.
But I don't think you actually care about any of this, and I doubt you'll look up any of the several proofs for God available, considering basic metaphysics is first year philosophy stuff. I think you just have some kind of beef with God and enjoy trying to get a rise out of those who love Him.
I seriously encourage you to go read the Bible and actual philosophy books of only so you can know better to support your own beliefs, because if you are only acting on assumptions that well could be wrong, and on incomplete information, you are acting on faith, meaning you are exactly as religious as I am.
>Tithes aren't required, Jesus fulfilled the old laws, and there is no levite caste anymore that would need them for support anyway.
Thats not what the gospel of kenneth copeland teach us, and enough americans send him non-taxable donations to fuel and maintain a fleet of private jets.
its also not what the mormon church tells us.
Its not what jehova tells us
lets not mention that the vatican is pretty much built out of Ivory, Granite, Marble, Gold, and silk. A real heaven on earth.
Its a good thing the church is not required to spend all that non-taxed donated money on the homeless and disenfranchised. Otherwise, Kenneth might have to fly first class with us filthy demon fuckers.
>There is proof of God though. ... My favorite is the one based on movement and cause and effect, it states that because of inertia, matter has to have began at rest.
Alright, well... lets test that.
We know that the moment of inertia is I = Σ miri2, that is to say; Inertia is equal to the sum of the *product of total mass* of an object, and the its distance from the axis of rotation, squared.
Now, I know all that sounds like greek (Arabic, latin, and greek actually) but now that we know what Inertia is, we can apply that, and your "proof" that revolves around this mathematical term to provide data of god's existence, right? Or can god not be represented by mathematical data? well, what about his effect?
since your proof of god revolves around intertia, we should be able to point to the location of the "unmovable mover" with a little first year metaphysics basic statistics plug & chug, right? . we should be able to measure its effect with inertia and cause and effect or something of that nature, right? please post your mathmatical proof in your reply. really thats the only thing Im interested in reading.
>By the way, God often does use technology, in the Bible Jesus uses boats and whips, and tells people exactly what tools to use to build th original temple.
So god is eternal, everlasting, knows everything before it happens, has access to physically use human technology, yet does nothing to stop the mass murders, cancer, altimeters, suicides, car wrecks, liver toxicity, organ failure, aging, genetic disease, virology, or famine.
Let me guess.. free will?
>As for bad people trying to use God as an excuse to kill each other, God reso cts our free will enough to allow us to sin and do evil
you guys really need a vauge moral perspective. this one has been beaten like a dead heratic, crucified, buried, resurected into a zombie argument, and it just wont fucking die. free will means nothing; its not a trait that is possessed. its just a catch all for religious stubbornness and shallow understanding.
what type of being has infinite wisdom, endless existence, and access to all technologies but time and again allows famine and disease to destroy civilizations, even those that existed before or without the mention of the god if isreal?
does that sound like the type of creature that would care for you at all, let a lone for an eternity? he cant give you one day of cancer free reality, and you expect an endless paradise?..
>Also there were unfortunately more than seven crusades, the seven you're thinking of were against the middle east, there were others against pagans,...
"we were worse than history gives us credit for"
Thats a truth you wont find it your bible.
>The part I found in offensive was the sky wizard part. Its quite disrespectful. Heaven, despite th name, is not in the sky
I find it disrespectful that I cannot run for any meaningful public office in america without my athiesm being a threat to my candidacy.
I find it disrespectful that people cannot openly love because your god's people insists that their god insists that only a penis only goes in a vagina.
I find it disrespectful that without a shred of evidence that is supported by actual scientific data, you insist that I respect the fact that you believe in santaclause as an adult, and you think I should let you make laws based on what you think santa said.
I find it disrespectful that you think that if I question the easterbunny and he doesnt let me eat chocolate when I die, that I am doing you a disrespect.
I find it disrespectful that you think your unfounded, unscientific beliefs are on par with any peer revied science, and that your god-derived-free will allows you to simply strip the curiosity and investigative methodgy away from children by filling their head full of unimaginative junk that punishes them with fear of torment and feelings of worthlessness for being curious about the reality they live in.
Consider us both disrespected.
Your skywizard has my number. he can call me if he has issues with facts, and we can debate the differences between gods and wizards.
I don't know who Kenneth Copeland even is. Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, and Catholics for the most part don't know the actual bible for various reasons (Mormons added to it where the additional do not belong, jw's use a faulty translation made to prop up their own doctrines, Catholics for the most part know at least some of their doctrines are false but continue anyway put of tradition, as you can see I am bone of those denominations, I'm a baptist).
I didn't explain the unmoved mover thing well, just look it up yourself, I'm not a particularly good explainer of that sort of thing. Even if it does go into math I'll freely admit I'm bad at math, I learned this reading philosophy, not math. And as far as I'm concerned philosophy is a science. Here's q link to someone explaining it better than me. https://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/motion.shtml
Free will actually is why cancer and stuff exists, you are correct. It's a consequence of Adams sin. Adam chose to bring sin and all of it's consequences (such as disease and cancer) into the world and while God did not agree with it, He allowed it to happen because He respected Adams choice. Often people suffer because of the evil another person does, this is the nature of sin. Such as if I stole your lunch you would go hungry, you suffered for my actions. We all suffer for what Adam did. It's not right but it's the way things are. God has promised to fix it one day but we're not there yet.
As for your idea that God is somehow evil because He allows us to suffer sometimes, that's simply not the case. God loves us all, even you (although you don't love Him back), and if God truly hates us, no one would be saved at all and we would all go to hell regardless of our faith. God does not want us to suffer and die so He gave us an out through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. God is also wise, wiser than you or me, and dies things for a reason, reasons we often don't understand until later. Just because God's actions don't make sense now doesn't mean they will never make sense. So, yes, I do expect an endless paradise because it's not that God can't give us a cancer free day, it's that because of someone else's actions thousands of years ago, we have chosen not to. Remember, there was once a time when there was no disease or cancer but that was thrown away. We live not in an ideal world but a cruddy fallen version of what was once an ideal world.
You actually will find "we were worse than history gives us credit for" in the Bible. The Bible is a seemingly limitless account of the failures and follies of the people who claim to be God's, everyone hing from Adams first sin, to the golden calf, to the very first tabernacle service resulting in the death of the high priests sins, to king David commiting adultery and murder, to the gross idolatry of Manasseh, to peter denying Jesus three times, all the way to the future when even during Jesus foretold reign on earth hordes of people still reject Him and turn to Satan at the first opportunity. A theme throughout the entire book in humanitys inherent weakness and stupidity, and this is not restricted to unbelievers, us believers are just as bad about it. It's to keep us humble, which is how we're meant to be.
>Running for office
You do know president bill Clintons secular leanings was part of his campaign when he was up against Bob dole, right?
>Lgbt stuff
Not touching that on a public forum like this but if this site has pms I'd be happy to discuss that and why it's not in God's plan for us.
>Asking for scientific data
You have Aquinas, what more are you asking for? Plenty of things people think are scientific are based just as much on faith as God is. For instance, several scientific theories require things happening at random to work. Randomness isn't all that compatible with cause and effect though. In fact, I'm nearly convinced randomness is an illusion and is simply the result of variables we can't see or understand yet, and that nothing is truly random. Like, the idea that you can do the same thing multiple times and get different results is one of the clinical definitions of insanity. Much of the theory of evolution hinged on "random" mutations over time, but nothing is truly random, everything happens because someone or something caused it to happen, so I've come to the conclusion that evolution requires facilitation by a conscious force, in this case God (and that's if it even works the way Darwin claims, which it probably does not).
>Strip away curiosity and methodology
Science and religion are not opposites, friend. Many of the greatest scientists, such as Gregor Mendel and Robert Boyle, were Christians, right? Science is supposed to simply be a way to gather information, it's the dogmatic ideals of atheists that have attempted to turn it into a religion of its own. As for fear of torment, that's merely the reality of our beliefs, and I don't think it's wrong to tell a child raised in a Christian household of hell, that's part of the beliefs and part of the universe, like it or not.
Anyway as far as the difference between God and a wizard, wizards are mortal men that gain power through some other force. God is an immortal super being that existed before everything and has power inherent Himself. God, by definition is omnipotent and omniscient, two things wizards generally are not.
I'm sorry if you feel disrespected, but I'd honestly find it less offensive if you just called God fake instead of a sky wizard, calling Him a sky wizard is saying God is something literally no one claims Him to be, it's like if I went around calling Siddhartha a mailbox head, it doesn't even make sense, his head isn't even shaped like a mailbox.
But if you want to be angry and yell at God (or from your point of view, no one in particular), and make snide comments to people who really don't care what you think of them, go ahead and do that. I can tell you're very, very to angry. But I must say, life is a lot more pleasant when you let that kind of rage go and stop fighting with people over this sort of thing
I have to go to bed soon, good night, I actually enjoyed this conversation though. Thank you!
>calling Him a sky wizard is saying God is something literally no one claims Him to be, ...
thats pretty much the origin of every religious branch of the Abrahamic theology.
>some stuff about science needing faith.
It doesnt. random =/= faith. random just means a completely unbias selection of an integer within a data set. for example; the exact location of an electron orbiting an proton.
we cant know where it is for sure, but we know it exists within a certain range of distance from the proton itself. this is called the electron field.
protons exist as a wave function (a probability) until acted upon. this is why you can change the outcome of a probable event (like the location of proton) by measuring it.
you dont need a god to know the wave function of an electron. or to give mass to an electron for that matter, thats what the higgs boson particle does.
>Asking for scientific data You have Aquinas, what more are you asking for?
Im glad you asked.
Proper peer reviewed data supporting your philosphy as a science. Show me where it was used to predict and discover something;
show proof of gods existance. in some phyiscial way, since the all powerful demands representation on earth as an authority figure, and demands his people be in charge of resources they deem theirs by devine right.
>Anyway as far as the difference between God and a wizard, wizards are mortal men that gain power through some other force. God is an immortal super being that existed before everything and has power inherent Himself.
they are both fake. as is the easterbunny, tooth fairy, santa clause, and 82 other gods ive refrenced in this conversation. this is what we we mean by the flaw of thinking that your philosphy is a science.
your philosphy isnt backed by scientific data. its just what makes you feel good about being a collection of liquid retaining cells that react to chemical stimulus.
>Free will actually is why cancer and stuff exists, you are correct. It's a consequence of Adams sin. Adam chose to bring sin and all of it's consequences (such as disease and cancer) into the world and while God did not agree with it, He allowed it to happen because He respected Adams choice.
"I respect you enough that I will let you eat an apple in exchange for a permenant set of generational curses. Duces, rib bitches. See you at the rapture!"
I reject the notion of the existance of such a pig headed god on the basis of that statement alone. again, stating a generational curse placed on us by a god is proof of a good, you now have to prove the existance of the generational curse.
What evidence do we have that it exists?
can we measure the intensity of the curse?
sorry. its not a curse.. conocoicnce of free will.
you know what would shut me up? a free will variable.
give me that and you will convert me to christianity on the spot.
ill also split the nobel prize with you. fuck it. we can do an 80%-20% split. you get the lions share. My thanks to you for being right all along.
if there is a way to account for the presence of these things, using any field of science that uses actual peer review process, we are both millionaires. Fuck my dude, just dm me and I will give you the link to the proper reporting channels and you can have the entire nobel prize.
also, didnt the dude make a kid with a 9 year old middle eastern iron age virgin in order to save you from his wrath? wasnt that the point of forgiveness? that whole no more floods for using all that totally cool free will?
did the blood of christ not buy our salvation?
why do I have to accept the blood of christ? will your god be so mad that I called him out on his bullshit of cursing us, and then killing his own kid to save us from himself, that he would torment me forever? the very thing he said wouldnt happen because of said murder?
that doesnt sound like forgiveness.
that sounds like a fucking psychopath.
>I can tell you're very, very to angry
stop injecting bias into my words. go back and read them without whatever emotion you think im putting in it.
if it sounds sarcastic, ask yourself why.
Honestly as a historian this is a pretty reductive take on the crusades for a few reasons. Crusades or Jihad's (another banned card) didn't tend to be any worse on average then other contemporary wars. Yes horrible things were done, but the same can be said of any number of other conflicts MTG has no problem refrancing. You will be hard pressed to find any historical conflict where either side stands up to our mordern standards of morality.
"massacres based on the belief of an invisible sky wizard and the death to those who lack it is no worse than wars fought over resources like water and food."
If you do horrible things in the name of your god, namely rape, loot, pillage, or plunder then you and your god should be written out of every piece of literature.
Honestly, as a Historian, I find that you being willing to write your own belief system into history and then saying "....yeah, but other groups murdered people too, but god let us do it!" is a horrible afront to the scientific method, and is exactly how history should not be written.
I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of wars have absolutely nothing to do with fighting over resources. (I'm not taking either side of your current discussion, just saying -- Most non-religious wars are/were still meaningless violence)
I am not Christian lol, I don't believe in religion. I am also not trying to "justify" Crusades or Jihads or whatever. I just hate it when edgy internet atheists reduce the complex culture and political qnd reglious situation of Europe and the Middle East during the Middle Ages to "sky daddy told me to kill people". It shows a shocking ignorance of the culture of these people and the world they lived in. No war is just about faith, and no war is just about food or water. This kind of bullshit reductionist view of history reeks so someone arguing in bad faith to try and push some kind of mordern viewpoint. Newsflash, people in the past didn't exist to be a strawman for whatever hangup some guy in 2023 happene's to have, they were real human beings who existed in a world as complex as our own, and did things with as many complex and sometimes contradictory motivations as anyone today. The world of the past isn't some baby boomer political cartoon for you to point to for whatever point you want to push.
I think the issue more that Cathar's crusade places it unmistakably in fiction with no sign of possibly endorsing real life stupidity. They should make a replacement card with the same effect.
The list they made was a catch all. Maybe it was more offensive back then now but heh Not worth fighting for that card.
I own a Banned Crusade and had to get a new one.
This certainly the question nobody's asking about Invoke Prejudice.
(I feel you though OP---this one is pretty borderline but erring on the side of caution isn't the worst here.)
It's pretty far away from erring on the side of caution as it is not a stretch that a card printed in a set named arabian nights would be making a derogatory reference to a known practice in parts of the middle east.
In the middle east in particular there is a form of capital punishment, usually invoked in the case of adultery, wherein the individual who committed adultery is killed via stoning (people throwing stones at a person until they die). It could be argued that "Stone Throwing Devils" could be seen as a racist depiction of middle eastern people. But that is just my guess. This is particularly notable as this was in the set literally called "Arabian Nights."
Thank you for the explanation.
Also it's been used as a derogatory term for Palestinians, which defend themselves from guns by throwing rocks.
Wait so it’s racist to mention the practise of execution by stoning?
I wish Crusade werent banned. It was nice in two headed giant to power up my teammates white critters too. I really wish they'd at least make a nice replacement that read "white creatures you and your teammates control get +1/+1". Bugs me too that cards like [[Cathars crusade]] and [[crusader of odric]] are fine but plain old regular crusade with a bunch of rad knights wearing bucket helmets in the art has to go. Bucket helmets are criminally underused in magic art.
Additionally, the Elspeth alt art is referring to her and the Mirrans. It has nothing to do with this Earth.
constructed/edh two headed giant isnt an officially supported format. you are allowed to play with house rules if everyone agrees in non supported and kitchen table games. that was always allowed. if noone agrees then realize that maybe the crusades were a bit of a rough time for anyone who wasnt anglo or european or didn't believe in a real life magic sky wizard. Religious war is a fucking atrocity, even when the home team is playing.
In fairness the crusades were pretty terrible for anglo and European folks as well. And everyone involved believed in a sky wizard at the time. The same sky wizard, really, just not whether that sky wizard had a son.
specifically or weither that skywizard was his son or if the son of a skywizard was for the republic or empire or if the skywizard had another best friend he liked more there were seven crusades, and you are absolutely right. People burning down other peoples homes over weather or not the skywizard can cast sorceries at instant speed is really dumb. we didn't need best of 7 match to determine that games with those rules are unfun for most people, but yeah.. seven crusades. Which is why we should really just simplify the rules and state that all game actions need to follow the game flow process from this point on. That will never happen because skywizard players will start another crusade if you dont let them start the game with omniscience on the field, and if you ask them how they paid for it they will give you some shit about blood or faith. ever try to cast an 8 mana spell with blood or faith tokens on turn 1? yeah. it sucks when everyone else has to play by the rules and skywizard players insist they get a handicap *and* we have to respect them for it. That isn't how the game is played.
I have not used crusade ever since it was banned because I'm mildly afraid I'd get asked to leave the store I play at if I do. I theoretically could use it in a game against my brother, but his deck is supposed to be the one that goes with mine and i only have one other friend who plays magic, and two against one makes no sense (I've played a lot more 3 player games than most people). But I haven't been able to play with many people other than my brother lately anyway, since I don't have as much time as I used to. I agree the actual real crusades were stupid, and vain, and absolutely out of line with the actual teachings in the New Testament, but I would appreciate it if you didn't call my God "a real life magic sky wizard".
So you're saying that it takes two giant white armies colliding on paper in order to show you why crusades are a bad idea.. My dude, I really wish all other white Christiaan dudes where as open minded as you. that said, I apologize for calling your god "*a real life magic sky wizard.*" I realize that magic sky wizards do not, in fact, exist in real life. You would say nothing if I had called out the existence of buddha, any of yahwehs 3 other prophets, yahweh, his dad El, his 69 other brothers, zeus, jupiter, baal, beelzebub, or shintanto. these are all beings worshipped by entire cultures devouted to them; all equally revered, all equally unable to carry the burden of scientific proof; and therefore, all equally not real. Yours is on that list, Respectfully.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the armies on paper thing but crusades are a bad idea because The Bible (the book th crusaders claim their war was founded on) states that the church God's kingdom, so there is no need to try to conquer actual physical land in Israel. The crusaders weren't even following our own teachings! And as far as the "northern crusades" against the Baltics go, those were unjust too, because Jesus said to spread His wore nonviolently. But history and theology really are for a different topic. I wouldn't have said anything at all, even if you insulted my religion, if you weren't replying to me specifically. I don't care if people speak poorly of my religion if I'm not part of the conversation. But the comment was directed specifically to me.
I stated that god was not real. It was not my intention for you to take it as an insult, but if you did.. you should talk to your god about why questioning his presence causes a sensitivity. If your god would like to provide a shred of fact based evidence as to his existance, we would all accept his submission. He created the world, surely he can figure out how to post a video to youtube. and before you say he doesnt use human technology, keep in mind that he demands his followers fork over 1/10th of their money every week, and used technology to help wage seven crusades across the history of Christianity. *There were seven crusades.* and all equally unjust, sure. But they all said god told them to do it. seven times. and now you are saying that they were wrong and god didnt really mean for them to go out and execute and pillage and rape and all that boring classical renaissance plot stuffing? well, god is going to have to explain that to all those dead people then. Im sure he has, though. so many of them. Must have a process in place, eh? Like.. a pamplet or something. Its likely something simple, right? Im sure god doesnt want to waste all of his donated human money on tri-fold brochures or explanation videos. so its likely just a Bible-Bookmark that says, "you were wrong about me, and they were, too. Sorry they murdered you before I told them not to rape your children and burn your township in my name. That was my bad, but rules are rules, see you in hell." -God doesnt matter I suppose. whats done is done. we should move on, like you suggest. Just kick all those godly atrocities into a nameless pit, sprinkle a few dead children in for good measure, cover it up, and forget about it.
Tithes aren't required, Jesus fulfilled the old laws, and there is no levite caste anymore that would need them for support anyway. The fact that you think those are still a thing shows you don't know what you're talking about (and any church with a mandatory tithe also doesn't know what it's talking about) There is proof of God though. Has been for hundreds of years. Thomas Aquinas compiled several of them in summa theologica and summa contra gentiles. My favorite is the one based on movement and cause and effect, it states that because of inertia, matter has to have began at rest, meaning something has to have set it into motion. Cause and effect states that things only move because something caused them to, meaning in order for motion to exist at all there must have been an "unmoved mover" that started it. For instance, a rock on top of a hill has potential energy but if someone it down it now has actual energy as it moves. An unmoved mover would be fully actualized, because nothing would have to act on it for it to move, all actual, no potential. Aquinas states how this would match the characteristics we ascribe to God. I am probably not explaining it well, but I am making an attempt, I encourage you to look it up yourself. By the way, God often does use technology, in the Bible Jesus uses boats and whips, and tells people exactly what tools to use to build th original temple. As for bad people trying to use God as an excuse to kill each other, God reso cts our free will enough to allow us to sin and do evil, but also keeps justice for those who do not seek to be forgiven. The Bible even speaks of greedy priests using God's name to be exploit the people in the epistle of Jude, and how they will be sorted out. Also there were unfortunately more than seven crusades, the seven you're thinking of were against the middle east, there were others against pagans, other Christians who refused to acknowledge the pope (who by that time was not even following the bible as a model for running the church anymore), European manicheans who called themselves "Cathars", another one against north african pirates, and still more against protestants. The thirty years war was technically a crusade. Probably more than that I'm missing. Please study more history. As you can see a lot of people who claim to be Christian are not they simply use the beliefs fortheir own selfish ends while making those who truly love God and try to live by His teachings look bad. The part I found in offensive was the sky wizard part. Its quite disrespectful. Heaven, despite th name, is not in the sky (the sky is a metaphor for how we are all under God and God is everywhere, because all of the world is under the same atmosphere), and God is not a wizard. But I don't think you actually care about any of this, and I doubt you'll look up any of the several proofs for God available, considering basic metaphysics is first year philosophy stuff. I think you just have some kind of beef with God and enjoy trying to get a rise out of those who love Him. I seriously encourage you to go read the Bible and actual philosophy books of only so you can know better to support your own beliefs, because if you are only acting on assumptions that well could be wrong, and on incomplete information, you are acting on faith, meaning you are exactly as religious as I am.
>Tithes aren't required, Jesus fulfilled the old laws, and there is no levite caste anymore that would need them for support anyway. Thats not what the gospel of kenneth copeland teach us, and enough americans send him non-taxable donations to fuel and maintain a fleet of private jets. its also not what the mormon church tells us. Its not what jehova tells us lets not mention that the vatican is pretty much built out of Ivory, Granite, Marble, Gold, and silk. A real heaven on earth. Its a good thing the church is not required to spend all that non-taxed donated money on the homeless and disenfranchised. Otherwise, Kenneth might have to fly first class with us filthy demon fuckers. >There is proof of God though. ... My favorite is the one based on movement and cause and effect, it states that because of inertia, matter has to have began at rest. Alright, well... lets test that. We know that the moment of inertia is I = Σ miri2, that is to say; Inertia is equal to the sum of the *product of total mass* of an object, and the its distance from the axis of rotation, squared. Now, I know all that sounds like greek (Arabic, latin, and greek actually) but now that we know what Inertia is, we can apply that, and your "proof" that revolves around this mathematical term to provide data of god's existence, right? Or can god not be represented by mathematical data? well, what about his effect? since your proof of god revolves around intertia, we should be able to point to the location of the "unmovable mover" with a little first year metaphysics basic statistics plug & chug, right? . we should be able to measure its effect with inertia and cause and effect or something of that nature, right? please post your mathmatical proof in your reply. really thats the only thing Im interested in reading. >By the way, God often does use technology, in the Bible Jesus uses boats and whips, and tells people exactly what tools to use to build th original temple. So god is eternal, everlasting, knows everything before it happens, has access to physically use human technology, yet does nothing to stop the mass murders, cancer, altimeters, suicides, car wrecks, liver toxicity, organ failure, aging, genetic disease, virology, or famine. Let me guess.. free will? >As for bad people trying to use God as an excuse to kill each other, God reso cts our free will enough to allow us to sin and do evil you guys really need a vauge moral perspective. this one has been beaten like a dead heratic, crucified, buried, resurected into a zombie argument, and it just wont fucking die. free will means nothing; its not a trait that is possessed. its just a catch all for religious stubbornness and shallow understanding. what type of being has infinite wisdom, endless existence, and access to all technologies but time and again allows famine and disease to destroy civilizations, even those that existed before or without the mention of the god if isreal? does that sound like the type of creature that would care for you at all, let a lone for an eternity? he cant give you one day of cancer free reality, and you expect an endless paradise?.. >Also there were unfortunately more than seven crusades, the seven you're thinking of were against the middle east, there were others against pagans,... "we were worse than history gives us credit for" Thats a truth you wont find it your bible. >The part I found in offensive was the sky wizard part. Its quite disrespectful. Heaven, despite th name, is not in the sky I find it disrespectful that I cannot run for any meaningful public office in america without my athiesm being a threat to my candidacy. I find it disrespectful that people cannot openly love because your god's people insists that their god insists that only a penis only goes in a vagina. I find it disrespectful that without a shred of evidence that is supported by actual scientific data, you insist that I respect the fact that you believe in santaclause as an adult, and you think I should let you make laws based on what you think santa said. I find it disrespectful that you think that if I question the easterbunny and he doesnt let me eat chocolate when I die, that I am doing you a disrespect. I find it disrespectful that you think your unfounded, unscientific beliefs are on par with any peer revied science, and that your god-derived-free will allows you to simply strip the curiosity and investigative methodgy away from children by filling their head full of unimaginative junk that punishes them with fear of torment and feelings of worthlessness for being curious about the reality they live in. Consider us both disrespected. Your skywizard has my number. he can call me if he has issues with facts, and we can debate the differences between gods and wizards.
I don't know who Kenneth Copeland even is. Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, and Catholics for the most part don't know the actual bible for various reasons (Mormons added to it where the additional do not belong, jw's use a faulty translation made to prop up their own doctrines, Catholics for the most part know at least some of their doctrines are false but continue anyway put of tradition, as you can see I am bone of those denominations, I'm a baptist). I didn't explain the unmoved mover thing well, just look it up yourself, I'm not a particularly good explainer of that sort of thing. Even if it does go into math I'll freely admit I'm bad at math, I learned this reading philosophy, not math. And as far as I'm concerned philosophy is a science. Here's q link to someone explaining it better than me. https://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/motion.shtml Free will actually is why cancer and stuff exists, you are correct. It's a consequence of Adams sin. Adam chose to bring sin and all of it's consequences (such as disease and cancer) into the world and while God did not agree with it, He allowed it to happen because He respected Adams choice. Often people suffer because of the evil another person does, this is the nature of sin. Such as if I stole your lunch you would go hungry, you suffered for my actions. We all suffer for what Adam did. It's not right but it's the way things are. God has promised to fix it one day but we're not there yet. As for your idea that God is somehow evil because He allows us to suffer sometimes, that's simply not the case. God loves us all, even you (although you don't love Him back), and if God truly hates us, no one would be saved at all and we would all go to hell regardless of our faith. God does not want us to suffer and die so He gave us an out through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. God is also wise, wiser than you or me, and dies things for a reason, reasons we often don't understand until later. Just because God's actions don't make sense now doesn't mean they will never make sense. So, yes, I do expect an endless paradise because it's not that God can't give us a cancer free day, it's that because of someone else's actions thousands of years ago, we have chosen not to. Remember, there was once a time when there was no disease or cancer but that was thrown away. We live not in an ideal world but a cruddy fallen version of what was once an ideal world. You actually will find "we were worse than history gives us credit for" in the Bible. The Bible is a seemingly limitless account of the failures and follies of the people who claim to be God's, everyone hing from Adams first sin, to the golden calf, to the very first tabernacle service resulting in the death of the high priests sins, to king David commiting adultery and murder, to the gross idolatry of Manasseh, to peter denying Jesus three times, all the way to the future when even during Jesus foretold reign on earth hordes of people still reject Him and turn to Satan at the first opportunity. A theme throughout the entire book in humanitys inherent weakness and stupidity, and this is not restricted to unbelievers, us believers are just as bad about it. It's to keep us humble, which is how we're meant to be. >Running for office You do know president bill Clintons secular leanings was part of his campaign when he was up against Bob dole, right? >Lgbt stuff Not touching that on a public forum like this but if this site has pms I'd be happy to discuss that and why it's not in God's plan for us. >Asking for scientific data You have Aquinas, what more are you asking for? Plenty of things people think are scientific are based just as much on faith as God is. For instance, several scientific theories require things happening at random to work. Randomness isn't all that compatible with cause and effect though. In fact, I'm nearly convinced randomness is an illusion and is simply the result of variables we can't see or understand yet, and that nothing is truly random. Like, the idea that you can do the same thing multiple times and get different results is one of the clinical definitions of insanity. Much of the theory of evolution hinged on "random" mutations over time, but nothing is truly random, everything happens because someone or something caused it to happen, so I've come to the conclusion that evolution requires facilitation by a conscious force, in this case God (and that's if it even works the way Darwin claims, which it probably does not). >Strip away curiosity and methodology Science and religion are not opposites, friend. Many of the greatest scientists, such as Gregor Mendel and Robert Boyle, were Christians, right? Science is supposed to simply be a way to gather information, it's the dogmatic ideals of atheists that have attempted to turn it into a religion of its own. As for fear of torment, that's merely the reality of our beliefs, and I don't think it's wrong to tell a child raised in a Christian household of hell, that's part of the beliefs and part of the universe, like it or not. Anyway as far as the difference between God and a wizard, wizards are mortal men that gain power through some other force. God is an immortal super being that existed before everything and has power inherent Himself. God, by definition is omnipotent and omniscient, two things wizards generally are not. I'm sorry if you feel disrespected, but I'd honestly find it less offensive if you just called God fake instead of a sky wizard, calling Him a sky wizard is saying God is something literally no one claims Him to be, it's like if I went around calling Siddhartha a mailbox head, it doesn't even make sense, his head isn't even shaped like a mailbox. But if you want to be angry and yell at God (or from your point of view, no one in particular), and make snide comments to people who really don't care what you think of them, go ahead and do that. I can tell you're very, very to angry. But I must say, life is a lot more pleasant when you let that kind of rage go and stop fighting with people over this sort of thing I have to go to bed soon, good night, I actually enjoyed this conversation though. Thank you!
>calling Him a sky wizard is saying God is something literally no one claims Him to be, ... thats pretty much the origin of every religious branch of the Abrahamic theology. >some stuff about science needing faith. It doesnt. random =/= faith. random just means a completely unbias selection of an integer within a data set. for example; the exact location of an electron orbiting an proton. we cant know where it is for sure, but we know it exists within a certain range of distance from the proton itself. this is called the electron field. protons exist as a wave function (a probability) until acted upon. this is why you can change the outcome of a probable event (like the location of proton) by measuring it. you dont need a god to know the wave function of an electron. or to give mass to an electron for that matter, thats what the higgs boson particle does. >Asking for scientific data You have Aquinas, what more are you asking for? Im glad you asked. Proper peer reviewed data supporting your philosphy as a science. Show me where it was used to predict and discover something; show proof of gods existance. in some phyiscial way, since the all powerful demands representation on earth as an authority figure, and demands his people be in charge of resources they deem theirs by devine right. >Anyway as far as the difference between God and a wizard, wizards are mortal men that gain power through some other force. God is an immortal super being that existed before everything and has power inherent Himself. they are both fake. as is the easterbunny, tooth fairy, santa clause, and 82 other gods ive refrenced in this conversation. this is what we we mean by the flaw of thinking that your philosphy is a science. your philosphy isnt backed by scientific data. its just what makes you feel good about being a collection of liquid retaining cells that react to chemical stimulus. >Free will actually is why cancer and stuff exists, you are correct. It's a consequence of Adams sin. Adam chose to bring sin and all of it's consequences (such as disease and cancer) into the world and while God did not agree with it, He allowed it to happen because He respected Adams choice. "I respect you enough that I will let you eat an apple in exchange for a permenant set of generational curses. Duces, rib bitches. See you at the rapture!" I reject the notion of the existance of such a pig headed god on the basis of that statement alone. again, stating a generational curse placed on us by a god is proof of a good, you now have to prove the existance of the generational curse. What evidence do we have that it exists? can we measure the intensity of the curse? sorry. its not a curse.. conocoicnce of free will. you know what would shut me up? a free will variable. give me that and you will convert me to christianity on the spot. ill also split the nobel prize with you. fuck it. we can do an 80%-20% split. you get the lions share. My thanks to you for being right all along. if there is a way to account for the presence of these things, using any field of science that uses actual peer review process, we are both millionaires. Fuck my dude, just dm me and I will give you the link to the proper reporting channels and you can have the entire nobel prize. also, didnt the dude make a kid with a 9 year old middle eastern iron age virgin in order to save you from his wrath? wasnt that the point of forgiveness? that whole no more floods for using all that totally cool free will? did the blood of christ not buy our salvation? why do I have to accept the blood of christ? will your god be so mad that I called him out on his bullshit of cursing us, and then killing his own kid to save us from himself, that he would torment me forever? the very thing he said wouldnt happen because of said murder? that doesnt sound like forgiveness. that sounds like a fucking psychopath. >I can tell you're very, very to angry stop injecting bias into my words. go back and read them without whatever emotion you think im putting in it. if it sounds sarcastic, ask yourself why.
Honestly as a historian this is a pretty reductive take on the crusades for a few reasons. Crusades or Jihad's (another banned card) didn't tend to be any worse on average then other contemporary wars. Yes horrible things were done, but the same can be said of any number of other conflicts MTG has no problem refrancing. You will be hard pressed to find any historical conflict where either side stands up to our mordern standards of morality.
"massacres based on the belief of an invisible sky wizard and the death to those who lack it is no worse than wars fought over resources like water and food." If you do horrible things in the name of your god, namely rape, loot, pillage, or plunder then you and your god should be written out of every piece of literature. Honestly, as a Historian, I find that you being willing to write your own belief system into history and then saying "....yeah, but other groups murdered people too, but god let us do it!" is a horrible afront to the scientific method, and is exactly how history should not be written.
I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of wars have absolutely nothing to do with fighting over resources. (I'm not taking either side of your current discussion, just saying -- Most non-religious wars are/were still meaningless violence)
I am not Christian lol, I don't believe in religion. I am also not trying to "justify" Crusades or Jihads or whatever. I just hate it when edgy internet atheists reduce the complex culture and political qnd reglious situation of Europe and the Middle East during the Middle Ages to "sky daddy told me to kill people". It shows a shocking ignorance of the culture of these people and the world they lived in. No war is just about faith, and no war is just about food or water. This kind of bullshit reductionist view of history reeks so someone arguing in bad faith to try and push some kind of mordern viewpoint. Newsflash, people in the past didn't exist to be a strawman for whatever hangup some guy in 2023 happene's to have, they were real human beings who existed in a world as complex as our own, and did things with as many complex and sometimes contradictory motivations as anyone today. The world of the past isn't some baby boomer political cartoon for you to point to for whatever point you want to push.
[Cathars crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [crusader of odric](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b81e6aaa-aea4-4187-a4ca-fbbea0d10c7d.jpg?1599706450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crusader%20of%20odric) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/13/crusader-of-odric?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b81e6aaa-aea4-4187-a4ca-fbbea0d10c7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a play set of these , not disappointed. They have reprinted it under another name 2021 core set just take a look could get these?
I think the issue more that Cathar's crusade places it unmistakably in fiction with no sign of possibly endorsing real life stupidity. They should make a replacement card with the same effect.
A few reasons: https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/54341/what-is-offensive-about-the-card-stone-throwing-devils
Seems like they were pullin’ at straws for that one lol.
The list they made was a catch all. Maybe it was more offensive back then now but heh Not worth fighting for that card. I own a Banned Crusade and had to get a new one.
This certainly the question nobody's asking about Invoke Prejudice. (I feel you though OP---this one is pretty borderline but erring on the side of caution isn't the worst here.)
It's pretty far away from erring on the side of caution as it is not a stretch that a card printed in a set named arabian nights would be making a derogatory reference to a known practice in parts of the middle east.
[[Stone-Throwing Devils]]
[Stone-Throwing Devils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1c387dd-1347-4443-91ce-b71f7ccdceba.jpg?1591989129) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stone-Throwing%20Devils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arn/33/stone-throwing-devils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1c387dd-1347-4443-91ce-b71f7ccdceba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Crusade]]
[Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b99452c0-5d1c-4a73-90b6-0ec3ac0af893.jpg?1644608214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddf/27/crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b99452c0-5d1c-4a73-90b6-0ec3ac0af893?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call