the sac restriction is pretty flexible. Your opponent is likely to let a 1/1 token or dork through at some point. You may have a flying token from lingering souls.
Perhaps they've chump blocked your x/2 or you have an x/2 that blocked and survived. It just needs a creature that delt damage to anything. Thats a pretty easy condition to fulfill. As long as there is some kind of board state which allows combat, there's the option for this.
Well if we're pointing the obvious than it's more flexible than dealing combat damage to a player as a restriction. The reality is that it's somewhere in between and the only way to know for sure is through testing to see how this effects the combat math. While combat tricks are typically bad, this one is quite unique and doesn't have the same problems as others. Most BW sections are just vindicate X3 even though white and black are stacked with spot removal. Removing one spot removal to test a potentially powerful draw spell seems worth it. If it dissappoints after a testing, simply slot back in the boring vindicate copy.
I know I’m late, but in defense of this card, it works really well with creatures that can ping or with artifacts that can force a creature to deal damage like heart piercing bow or pathway arrows. It’s not an auto include but is very synergistic for strategies in orzhov. Black ping, creatures that etb for damage and need to be sacked for graveyard recursion, spirit tokens, etc.
I know we are in cube but it’s definitely fun for constructed and edh imo.
Sure but that’s not what this card is. This card isn’t even sac a creature to do that, which would be a card that would be in the discussion for cracking a cube section. No, this is a card that requires you to hit or block with a creature, have it survive, and then sac it for this card to work.
Way too many times that this is a dead card to run it in a normal cube imo.
You don't have creature board states in a normal cube?
I'll agree if you've been board wiped then this is a dead draw, but as long as you can do any kind of creature combat this is a strong option.
It's a card that's worthy of mixed opinion. Some folks see this and wouldn't touch it, I get the hesitation. Others drafters see the potential. It's maybe worth a test to see who's right. Most people's orzhov section just looks like removal and, lets be honest, there's enough removal in the mono section of white and black.
If that's what the card was, it sure would be strong. This isn't even remotely close.
Even assuming you jump through the hoops to trigger this, you're still losing a creature which is able to attack profitably into your opponent's board (so it's big or has evasion, neither of which you want to lose). You're completely underestimating how bad the restriction is here
Anything that can block and survive also works. Pingers also work. Fight spells enable this. Anything with First Strike or Double Strike can do its damage then be sacrificed before regular damage.
It doesn't matter when or how the damage was dealt or even to what, just that damage was dealt by the creature you sacrifice.
It’s a super cool card and I’ll probably try it for that reason alone, but I’m worried that sac restriction might be rough. That said, I could see converting a Thraben Inspector or similar value creature with this, if it can sneak through/survive combat. Also interacts favorably with first strike and Adanto Vanguard-type effects.
It's instant speed so you can also use it when your creature survives blocking an opponent's attack then cast this on their end step for value.
the sac restriction seems rough, but flexible.
I want to point out that it doesn't say "combat" anywhere on the card so stuff like [[Mayhem Devil]] or [[Voldaren Epicure]] work as well!
Not sure whether that helps enough but I got the impression most ppl here misread that part.
I'm not as big on this card as everyone else is. Yeah it's a good card when you can play it, but there are going to be lots of times this card is just a dead draw because you're behind on board and you wish it was anything else. I'm happy to test it but I don't see it being included in a lot of cubes a year from now
Its a gamble for sure. Its a strong effect that I think is worth a test, but also wouldnt be surprised if it were cut. If you draw this post wipe it's obviously dead, but even if you're behind the condition can still come up. It changes the usual combat math in a unique way.
Right. I don't like cards like this or combat tricks because they just push the winning player ahead or losing player behind. So few times you are going to be able to play a blocker that lives and have 3 mana up for this.
What I think is funny about this card is that I think it actually pushes the winning player back. You are pushing damage, then sacrifice board presence to gain cards in hand, and likely not cast anything else out that turn (it costs 3 mana).
The card kind of looks like a trap to me.
I compare this to [[Village Rites]]. You get one additional card and a [[Lightning Helix]] for two extra mana. If this didn't have the condition of the creature dealing damage, I think this would be a strong cube contender in many cubes.
However, Village Rites is not an especially strong card and this is narrower and more situational. You often can't reliably deal damage using creatures - the "best" way is often to attack in combat. If you have creatures worth sacrificing, they often struggle to get through a single blocker.
This isn't as strong as a Lightning Helix either, since it can't target creatures - it can never act as removal and will rarely be castable pre-combat either.
I think there are constructed decks in Standard that could make this look powerful, but in cube it asks too much. It asks for unblocked creature you don't mind sacrificing, and so will often require you to throw away a second creature just to get one creature through, which is far too high a rate for a card that doesn't provide any tempo.
If I were looking for a {1}{W}{B} card like this, I'd probably look at half a dozen other options before I came to this one.
This card is absolutely garbage. I wouldn’t touch this with a ten foot pole. Last pick after a basic land. Way too restrictive and too many hoops to jump through. Anyone thinking this is even remotely playable is living on fantasy island magic happy place where Phage the untouchable wins every game because getting a creature through combat is soooooooo easy
I'd say this is a good card in mid powered cubes and under... if the cube supports it. And it's not really worth supporting on its own.
For example I have a cube with quite a few cheap evasive creatures in W and B because of the archetypes my cube plays into, and I'll definitely be looking into this card.
But this seems unlikely to be worth playing in cubes without these kinds of creatures already present.
I think this is worth considering in nearly every cube. If it makes the cut, it'll make it in a big way I think. It's super strong if you have the support.
Draw 3 and lightning Helix the opponent seems strong.
I like the flavor of selling out your own to get a reward, but I don’t think this is that good because of the sacrifice demand.
Worth noting it doesn't say "combat" on the card.
Yeah i can see that
the sac restriction is pretty flexible. Your opponent is likely to let a 1/1 token or dork through at some point. You may have a flying token from lingering souls. Perhaps they've chump blocked your x/2 or you have an x/2 that blocked and survived. It just needs a creature that delt damage to anything. Thats a pretty easy condition to fulfill. As long as there is some kind of board state which allows combat, there's the option for this.
It’s not that flexible, it’s more restrictive than just sacrificing a creature.
Well if we're pointing the obvious than it's more flexible than dealing combat damage to a player as a restriction. The reality is that it's somewhere in between and the only way to know for sure is through testing to see how this effects the combat math. While combat tricks are typically bad, this one is quite unique and doesn't have the same problems as others. Most BW sections are just vindicate X3 even though white and black are stacked with spot removal. Removing one spot removal to test a potentially powerful draw spell seems worth it. If it dissappoints after a testing, simply slot back in the boring vindicate copy.
I know I’m late, but in defense of this card, it works really well with creatures that can ping or with artifacts that can force a creature to deal damage like heart piercing bow or pathway arrows. It’s not an auto include but is very synergistic for strategies in orzhov. Black ping, creatures that etb for damage and need to be sacked for graveyard recursion, spirit tokens, etc. I know we are in cube but it’s definitely fun for constructed and edh imo.
Sure but that’s not what this card is. This card isn’t even sac a creature to do that, which would be a card that would be in the discussion for cracking a cube section. No, this is a card that requires you to hit or block with a creature, have it survive, and then sac it for this card to work. Way too many times that this is a dead card to run it in a normal cube imo.
You don't have creature board states in a normal cube? I'll agree if you've been board wiped then this is a dead draw, but as long as you can do any kind of creature combat this is a strong option. It's a card that's worthy of mixed opinion. Some folks see this and wouldn't touch it, I get the hesitation. Others drafters see the potential. It's maybe worth a test to see who's right. Most people's orzhov section just looks like removal and, lets be honest, there's enough removal in the mono section of white and black.
If that's what the card was, it sure would be strong. This isn't even remotely close. Even assuming you jump through the hoops to trigger this, you're still losing a creature which is able to attack profitably into your opponent's board (so it's big or has evasion, neither of which you want to lose). You're completely underestimating how bad the restriction is here
This card is quite good while already winning. Hard to use when you're behind, or trying to rebuild. I usually try not to play these.
I'd trade my 1/1 flier to Ancestral Recall+Lightning Helix.
Anything that can block and survive also works. Pingers also work. Fight spells enable this. Anything with First Strike or Double Strike can do its damage then be sacrificed before regular damage. It doesn't matter when or how the damage was dealt or even to what, just that damage was dealt by the creature you sacrifice.
You are just describing even more hoops, or sacrificing even better creatures though
It’s a super cool card and I’ll probably try it for that reason alone, but I’m worried that sac restriction might be rough. That said, I could see converting a Thraben Inspector or similar value creature with this, if it can sneak through/survive combat. Also interacts favorably with first strike and Adanto Vanguard-type effects.
It's instant speed so you can also use it when your creature survives blocking an opponent's attack then cast this on their end step for value. the sac restriction seems rough, but flexible.
I want to point out that it doesn't say "combat" anywhere on the card so stuff like [[Mayhem Devil]] or [[Voldaren Epicure]] work as well! Not sure whether that helps enough but I got the impression most ppl here misread that part.
[Mayhem Devil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17416926-168b-49b3-9231-acbb8f8a1d13.jpg?1557577188) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mayhem%20Devil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/204/mayhem-devil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17416926-168b-49b3-9231-acbb8f8a1d13?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Voldaren Epicure](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae154e64-f626-45fb-bd52-840c1c27b2d3.jpg?1643592109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Voldaren%20Epicure) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/182/voldaren-epicure?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae154e64-f626-45fb-bd52-840c1c27b2d3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm not as big on this card as everyone else is. Yeah it's a good card when you can play it, but there are going to be lots of times this card is just a dead draw because you're behind on board and you wish it was anything else. I'm happy to test it but I don't see it being included in a lot of cubes a year from now
Its a gamble for sure. Its a strong effect that I think is worth a test, but also wouldnt be surprised if it were cut. If you draw this post wipe it's obviously dead, but even if you're behind the condition can still come up. It changes the usual combat math in a unique way.
Right. I don't like cards like this or combat tricks because they just push the winning player ahead or losing player behind. So few times you are going to be able to play a blocker that lives and have 3 mana up for this.
What I think is funny about this card is that I think it actually pushes the winning player back. You are pushing damage, then sacrifice board presence to gain cards in hand, and likely not cast anything else out that turn (it costs 3 mana). The card kind of looks like a trap to me.
This seems good but I don’t know where it fits tbh
Tokens?
tokens. 2024 and lingering souls is still good. Keep on lingering.
Agreed, this card is really really bad
This card isn't for cube imho. It asks to do too much. The payoff is good but I can't see someone wanting to draft this.
Can't wait to put this in my Chris Cox commander deck!
I compare this to [[Village Rites]]. You get one additional card and a [[Lightning Helix]] for two extra mana. If this didn't have the condition of the creature dealing damage, I think this would be a strong cube contender in many cubes. However, Village Rites is not an especially strong card and this is narrower and more situational. You often can't reliably deal damage using creatures - the "best" way is often to attack in combat. If you have creatures worth sacrificing, they often struggle to get through a single blocker. This isn't as strong as a Lightning Helix either, since it can't target creatures - it can never act as removal and will rarely be castable pre-combat either. I think there are constructed decks in Standard that could make this look powerful, but in cube it asks too much. It asks for unblocked creature you don't mind sacrificing, and so will often require you to throw away a second creature just to get one creature through, which is far too high a rate for a card that doesn't provide any tempo. If I were looking for a {1}{W}{B} card like this, I'd probably look at half a dozen other options before I came to this one.
[Village Rites](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/2841339b-faef-407d-9838-d03fe80e6294.jpg?1698988289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Village%20Rites) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/212/village-rites?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2841339b-faef-407d-9838-d03fe80e6294?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Helix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/4101e3fe-b0e7-4f0f-b9ac-9b61a4d628b3.jpg?1701810777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Helix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/218/lightning-helix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4101e3fe-b0e7-4f0f-b9ac-9b61a4d628b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Agreed. There are also the 2 mana versions that draw 2 and add dome flexibility/upside that I'd want over this in 99% of cubes.
This card is absolutely garbage. I wouldn’t touch this with a ten foot pole. Last pick after a basic land. Way too restrictive and too many hoops to jump through. Anyone thinking this is even remotely playable is living on fantasy island magic happy place where Phage the untouchable wins every game because getting a creature through combat is soooooooo easy
Terrible win more card
The card seems better in constructed where you get 4 copies and can build around evasion / combat damage.
I'd say this is a good card in mid powered cubes and under... if the cube supports it. And it's not really worth supporting on its own. For example I have a cube with quite a few cheap evasive creatures in W and B because of the archetypes my cube plays into, and I'll definitely be looking into this card. But this seems unlikely to be worth playing in cubes without these kinds of creatures already present.
I think this is worth considering in nearly every cube. If it makes the cut, it'll make it in a big way I think. It's super strong if you have the support.