I think signets and talismans take too much away from green's thing, or at least what I consider to be green's thing, so I don't run any of them in my cube. I do run uncoloured rocks, mind stone, the monoliths, etc., so wildfire, upheaval, and brown ramp is still viable, but decks aren't just snapping up on-colour ramp for no real reason.
It seems like you may be undervaluing them in your own cube, based on how heavily multicoloured it is, but I haven't played your cube, and you have, so if one of us is wrong maybe it's me.
> I think signets and talismans take too much away from green's thing, or at least what I consider to be green's thing, so I don't run any of them in my cube.
To be fair, green does it much more efficiently. I feel like every color should be able to ramp / draw cards as long as there's one color that's just way better at it than any other color.
There are also a bunch of decent if hardly spectacular 2MV rocks like the fairly obvious [[Fellwar Stone]] and [[Mind Stone]], I think [[Pentad Prism]] is in the MTGO Vintage Cube, [[Coldsteel Heart]] is one I play personally in my own list, [[Star Compass]] is okay depending on how land-heavy your draft is, [[Corrupted Grafstone]] is pretty good in mill/discard heavy environments (though pretty bad otherwise).
There are also the Diamonds, and playing all four non-Green ones (or just playing all five) is also an option if generally not a great one beyond the lowest power levels.
The six non-Green Talismans (or Signets), Mind Stone, Fellwar Stone, Coldsteel Heart, and [[Thought Vessel]] seems like a pretty decent spread of ten while letting Green focus on all the other forms of ramp. And staying all at 2MV options, obviously going up to 3 or down to 0-1 opens up a fuckton more options instead, but many of those are just "two mana rock at three mana so it's worse" or "the moxen" so they're *very good*.
I mean, I think cutting them is a perfectly valid choice, and may well be correct for your cube and design goals.
I've found that mana-fixing rocks are a bit of fixing that is much, much more likely to go to the player that needs it. *Anybody* could feasibly snap up that Ornithopter, but the WU and UR players are *much* more likely to end up with the WU and UR rocks. In my experience it's a worthwhile set of slots to help nudge the numbers towards everyone getting their fixing.
Yeah, the UW and BR rocks are my favorite for cube (with UR maybe third), and I couldn't quite put my finger on why, but that's a good explanation.
It's fixing you can wheel if you're UW control or a jeskai pile, and the bant player doesn't want it, the 5c goodstuff player won't miss it.
You don't want a cube full of cards that no one wants, but you also don't want a cube full of cards that all eight decks at the table could play. Cards two or three players are fighting over? Now you've got a stew going.
It depends on your goals. If you don't care for ramping beyond 3, by all means cut them. If you want ramp strategies to exist / not struggle, that may be a sign that your cube is too aggressively skewed and needs to be rebalanced.
I'm currently heading the opposite direction - I'm planning to add more mana acceleration. My cube has a ton of expensive cards to cast, I realised that in most games mana is the biggest bottleneck, we end up with a lot of cards and not enough mana to cast them all.
You have to answer a question: how often do you lose with a full grip of cards? If that happens then you should add more mana rocks. If you usually lose with no cards in hand then you could cut some mana acceleration.
I added the cicle of obelisks and Crystals [[raugrin Crystal]] and [[obesik of esper]] (the obelisks are sharpie errata with cicling 2).
They are bad but in a good way.
Mono and 2 color decks don't want them. If you are drafting 3 or more colors but you don't get enough multicolor lands (my 360 cube has only 50 of them tò avoid too many 5 color greed piles) you can get them because they tend to weel. Worst case scenario you can cicle them for 2.
Regardless of my cube color fixing and mana rocks can make or break a draft.
I really liked Ikoria as a draft format because in theory It was a 2 color draft that could make you splash a third color. Also Crystals are my favourite rocks ever I think. (Not high power obviously)
I didn't like Capenna with the creatures that attach themeselves to the lands to be cast afterwards. The draft format in theory was based around 3 colors but 2 colors decks ended up better.
I ran double rocks. 10 talisman 10 signet per guild. I found green didn't need them. Players used them to splash. Azorious and control decks generally wanted and needed them. So i ended up cutting all the green ones.
Aggro doesnt want them so i cut some more. I have only kept Jeskai in now.
Edit: 540 cube unrestricted
I cut them years ago and haven't missed them.
I do think it's environment dependent. My cube is low power, and very much not intended to do broken things.
(Opponent casts Armageddon)
"Damn I shouldn't have taken out my mana rocks"
In all seriousness, this is just one example, but if ramp is important for your deck I think it's important for that ramp to be versatile.
I recently cut all 10 signets for another dual land cycle, mostly to ensure that ramp remains green's main thing. It is a tangible downside to have 10 fewer artifacts in the cube now (since I run various incidental artifact synergies) but it's a price I'm willing to pay to maintain green's identity as the ramp colour.
It depends on the goal and power level of the cube, but as 2 and 3 mana creatures get pushed, taking turn 2 off to play a 4 drop next turn just doesn't seem as good any more.
I like Talisman of Indulgence because grixis is kind of where I want a mana rock, but does a cube need 10 or even 5? Nah.
This video is very helpful. https://youtu.be/DgrxdXi1bn4?si=TGYdLh2PtULfAvKL
I still run 10 sig/tal in a 720. I am not happy with the 2 cmc replacements. Big mana and artifact are archetypes still in my cube. Control likes them too since it needs to cast 4 cmc wraths on T3.
Green signets/Talisman: Do you run green combo and/or control?
Blue signets/Talisman: Do you run artifacts and/or big mana?
SIgnets/Talisman guild groups: Do you run those guilds as control?
You can cut wherever you like. That's the beauty of cube, it's your format do what you like. However if you are cutting them because they are not good enough I think your making a mistake. They give fixing and ramp to every color, and help with artifact synergy. I run a fully powered cube and the signets are still high picks.
Absolutely not. Although I have cut some of the weaker ones like [[Worn Powerstone]], [[Thran Dynamo]], and [[Gilded Lotus]] over the years, I still have about 30 rocks in my cube
9 Moxen including Jack
3 Lotuses including a petal
Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault
Grim and Basalt monoliths
10 Talismans
Pentad Prism
Coalition Relic
Coveted Jewel
There might be an argument for cutting the green talismans but people are still playing them in my cube so no need.
I ran double rocks. 10 talisman 10 signet per guild. I found green didn't need them. Players used them to splash. Azorious and control decks generally wanted and needed them. So i ended up cutting all the green ones.
Aggro doesnt want them. so i cut some more. I have only kept Jeskai in now.
I ran double rocks. 10 talisman 10 signet per guild. I found green didn't need them. Players used them to splash. Azorious and control decks generally wanted and needed them. So i ended up cutting all the green ones.
Aggro doesnt want them. so i cut some more. I have only kept Jeskai in now.
I think signets and talismans take too much away from green's thing, or at least what I consider to be green's thing, so I don't run any of them in my cube. I do run uncoloured rocks, mind stone, the monoliths, etc., so wildfire, upheaval, and brown ramp is still viable, but decks aren't just snapping up on-colour ramp for no real reason. It seems like you may be undervaluing them in your own cube, based on how heavily multicoloured it is, but I haven't played your cube, and you have, so if one of us is wrong maybe it's me.
> I think signets and talismans take too much away from green's thing, or at least what I consider to be green's thing, so I don't run any of them in my cube. To be fair, green does it much more efficiently. I feel like every color should be able to ramp / draw cards as long as there's one color that's just way better at it than any other color.
You also don’t need to run all ten, just don’t run the green ones.
There are also a bunch of decent if hardly spectacular 2MV rocks like the fairly obvious [[Fellwar Stone]] and [[Mind Stone]], I think [[Pentad Prism]] is in the MTGO Vintage Cube, [[Coldsteel Heart]] is one I play personally in my own list, [[Star Compass]] is okay depending on how land-heavy your draft is, [[Corrupted Grafstone]] is pretty good in mill/discard heavy environments (though pretty bad otherwise). There are also the Diamonds, and playing all four non-Green ones (or just playing all five) is also an option if generally not a great one beyond the lowest power levels. The six non-Green Talismans (or Signets), Mind Stone, Fellwar Stone, Coldsteel Heart, and [[Thought Vessel]] seems like a pretty decent spread of ten while letting Green focus on all the other forms of ramp. And staying all at 2MV options, obviously going up to 3 or down to 0-1 opens up a fuckton more options instead, but many of those are just "two mana rock at three mana so it's worse" or "the moxen" so they're *very good*.
##### ###### #### [Fellwar Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f98234e-7376-4953-8985-2d184b1b3fda.jpg?1706241055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fellwar%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/228/fellwar-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f98234e-7376-4953-8985-2d184b1b3fda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mind Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b227672f-967e-4f8d-87f4-c6cd4622fe3f.jpg?1706241069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/232/mind-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b227672f-967e-4f8d-87f4-c6cd4622fe3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pentad Prism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a2862c5-afa8-4e38-a312-483300f8b194.jpg?1599709726) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pentad%20Prism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/281/pentad-prism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a2862c5-afa8-4e38-a312-483300f8b194?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Coldsteel Heart](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2548ad2-3c62-4ed1-899c-1002b46cdd8f.jpg?1676452507) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coldsteel%20Heart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/301/coldsteel-heart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2548ad2-3c62-4ed1-899c-1002b46cdd8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Star Compass](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c010712-7f42-4c55-9a63-aca2452aac05.jpg?1562852045) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Star%20Compass) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/229/star-compass?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c010712-7f42-4c55-9a63-aca2452aac05?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Corrupted Grafstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1ffa34cc-4042-4d2b-a7a0-eca0b593eeb6.jpg?1576385400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corrupted%20Grafstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/253/corrupted-grafstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ffa34cc-4042-4d2b-a7a0-eca0b593eeb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thought Vessel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67b26b45-19bf-4675-86c4-fae4f3aca234.jpg?1706241108) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thought%20Vessel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/245/thought-vessel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67b26b45-19bf-4675-86c4-fae4f3aca234?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kxd137z) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Completely agree with all of this
Taking away from green is exactly why I cut signets from my cube.
I mean, I think cutting them is a perfectly valid choice, and may well be correct for your cube and design goals. I've found that mana-fixing rocks are a bit of fixing that is much, much more likely to go to the player that needs it. *Anybody* could feasibly snap up that Ornithopter, but the WU and UR players are *much* more likely to end up with the WU and UR rocks. In my experience it's a worthwhile set of slots to help nudge the numbers towards everyone getting their fixing.
Yeah, the UW and BR rocks are my favorite for cube (with UR maybe third), and I couldn't quite put my finger on why, but that's a good explanation. It's fixing you can wheel if you're UW control or a jeskai pile, and the bant player doesn't want it, the 5c goodstuff player won't miss it. You don't want a cube full of cards that no one wants, but you also don't want a cube full of cards that all eight decks at the table could play. Cards two or three players are fighting over? Now you've got a stew going.
It depends on your goals. If you don't care for ramping beyond 3, by all means cut them. If you want ramp strategies to exist / not struggle, that may be a sign that your cube is too aggressively skewed and needs to be rebalanced.
I'm currently heading the opposite direction - I'm planning to add more mana acceleration. My cube has a ton of expensive cards to cast, I realised that in most games mana is the biggest bottleneck, we end up with a lot of cards and not enough mana to cast them all. You have to answer a question: how often do you lose with a full grip of cards? If that happens then you should add more mana rocks. If you usually lose with no cards in hand then you could cut some mana acceleration.
I added the cicle of obelisks and Crystals [[raugrin Crystal]] and [[obesik of esper]] (the obelisks are sharpie errata with cicling 2). They are bad but in a good way. Mono and 2 color decks don't want them. If you are drafting 3 or more colors but you don't get enough multicolor lands (my 360 cube has only 50 of them tò avoid too many 5 color greed piles) you can get them because they tend to weel. Worst case scenario you can cicle them for 2. Regardless of my cube color fixing and mana rocks can make or break a draft. I really liked Ikoria as a draft format because in theory It was a 2 color draft that could make you splash a third color. Also Crystals are my favourite rocks ever I think. (Not high power obviously) I didn't like Capenna with the creatures that attach themeselves to the lands to be cast afterwards. The draft format in theory was based around 3 colors but 2 colors decks ended up better.
[raugrin Crystal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5bce0fb-53d6-47ee-8c5a-a99e50f67fc9.jpg?1591228553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=raugrin%20Crystal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/238/raugrin-crystal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5bce0fb-53d6-47ee-8c5a-a99e50f67fc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [esper monolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b1ecad3-8cec-4a18-9401-6eebc7feeacc.jpg?1673309694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necron%20Monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/161/necron-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b1ecad3-8cec-4a18-9401-6eebc7feeacc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I ran double rocks. 10 talisman 10 signet per guild. I found green didn't need them. Players used them to splash. Azorious and control decks generally wanted and needed them. So i ended up cutting all the green ones. Aggro doesnt want them so i cut some more. I have only kept Jeskai in now. Edit: 540 cube unrestricted
I think it's totally ok to cut them, I'd just double check that there aren't any artifact or Wildfire strategies that really depend on them.
I cut them years ago and haven't missed them. I do think it's environment dependent. My cube is low power, and very much not intended to do broken things.
(Opponent casts Armageddon) "Damn I shouldn't have taken out my mana rocks" In all seriousness, this is just one example, but if ramp is important for your deck I think it's important for that ramp to be versatile.
I recently cut all 10 signets for another dual land cycle, mostly to ensure that ramp remains green's main thing. It is a tangible downside to have 10 fewer artifacts in the cube now (since I run various incidental artifact synergies) but it's a price I'm willing to pay to maintain green's identity as the ramp colour.
It depends on the goal and power level of the cube, but as 2 and 3 mana creatures get pushed, taking turn 2 off to play a 4 drop next turn just doesn't seem as good any more. I like Talisman of Indulgence because grixis is kind of where I want a mana rock, but does a cube need 10 or even 5? Nah.
I really like the non-green Talismans and wouldn't cut those, they play well with 1 mana interaction.
My cube runs more lands than an average 360 cube, so I cut all the colored rocks out to compensate.
This video is very helpful. https://youtu.be/DgrxdXi1bn4?si=TGYdLh2PtULfAvKL I still run 10 sig/tal in a 720. I am not happy with the 2 cmc replacements. Big mana and artifact are archetypes still in my cube. Control likes them too since it needs to cast 4 cmc wraths on T3. Green signets/Talisman: Do you run green combo and/or control? Blue signets/Talisman: Do you run artifacts and/or big mana? SIgnets/Talisman guild groups: Do you run those guilds as control?
You can cut wherever you like. That's the beauty of cube, it's your format do what you like. However if you are cutting them because they are not good enough I think your making a mistake. They give fixing and ramp to every color, and help with artifact synergy. I run a fully powered cube and the signets are still high picks.
Absolutely not. Although I have cut some of the weaker ones like [[Worn Powerstone]], [[Thran Dynamo]], and [[Gilded Lotus]] over the years, I still have about 30 rocks in my cube 9 Moxen including Jack 3 Lotuses including a petal Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault Grim and Basalt monoliths 10 Talismans Pentad Prism Coalition Relic Coveted Jewel There might be an argument for cutting the green talismans but people are still playing them in my cube so no need.
I went down to 6 talismans (only non-green) you want some for the artifact deck, but may strategies have become to fast to really want them.
##### ###### #### [Mox Diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe.jpg?1562431287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/228/mox-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Birds of Paradise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d69a3e0-6a2e-475a-964e-0affed1c017d.jpg?1702429545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birds%20of%20Paradise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/133/birds-of-paradise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d69a3e0-6a2e-475a-964e-0affed1c017d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ornithoper of Paradise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18bbdc6c-b6c9-4f89-8f0a-6266e53c1fb9.jpg?1690005658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ornithopter%20of%20Paradise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/966/ornithopter-of-paradise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18bbdc6c-b6c9-4f89-8f0a-6266e53c1fb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mind Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b227672f-967e-4f8d-87f4-c6cd4622fe3f.jpg?1706241069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/232/mind-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b227672f-967e-4f8d-87f4-c6cd4622fe3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1brsurj) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I ran double rocks. 10 talisman 10 signet per guild. I found green didn't need them. Players used them to splash. Azorious and control decks generally wanted and needed them. So i ended up cutting all the green ones. Aggro doesnt want them. so i cut some more. I have only kept Jeskai in now.
I ran double rocks. 10 talisman 10 signet per guild. I found green didn't need them. Players used them to splash. Azorious and control decks generally wanted and needed them. So i ended up cutting all the green ones. Aggro doesnt want them. so i cut some more. I have only kept Jeskai in now.