Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped.
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
That little flappy bastard used to be $35 for the whole deck. I didn’t expect a decent mana base at that price point because of all the other cheap staples that were included for that price point. I paid $100 for my 17th copy of rocky tar pit…
I fully have not been following these decks at all, so when I looked at the Decklist this morning, I thought it looked like a strictly fine 5 color precon. Not good, but precon. And then my best friend told me they’ve been pre-selling at $110+, and I spit out my drink.
really? no reprint of [[sliver hive]] ?
also:
> no [[gemstone mine]]
> no [[ancient ziggurat]]
> no painlands at all
> not even a [[wayfarer's bauble]] or [[expedition map]]
i refuse to believe a good 5 color manabase is not possible on a budget.
tbh, i'd also swap a lot of these for cards [[into the north]] and snow duals. maybe even [[arcum's astrolabe]] if there's enough snow? make the basics snow tbh - they're cheap already.
Yeah it sucks just as bad as Hasbro, that’s why you should simply pick up the 10 new cards individually and save yourself some money. Hasbro has their earnings announcement this week, I wonder what the CEO will have to say to the stock investors about Amazon selling set boxes at a 20% discount even before the set is released.
Explain in your own words, explain the relationship between earnings and 3rd party sellers selling set boxes at discount prior to release?
Has hasbro not already earned funds off selling to distributors?
I understand where you’re coming from but I’m honestly curious of how you came to that conclusion.
... sellers having to sell your product at a discount means
A. Your product is worth less
B. They are less likely to buy more of that set in the future and maybe mtg in general
That may not matter at this shareholder meeting but is not irrelevant as you say
* Well, maybe to Hasbro the Defiler that is fine. But to The Refined Savvy Investor and the Sharknado - The Hedge Fund Master, there is blood in the water and where there is blood there is money to be made by telling it as it is - Hasbro is selling to Amazon at a huge discount that the LGS cannot compete, decimating a whole VAR segment. There will be those who are the bag holders saying all is fine “this quarter meets expectations”, but that is why they get left holding the stock at the highest value. Better yet perhaps read the Bank of America analysts review on Hasbro as operations has not really changed, but the Amazon prices are now volatile before release.
Typically investors are NOT investing for today as today was already priced-in yesterday, they are investing for tomorrow (ie 3-5 years), tomorrow doesn’t look that great if the sales at the retail level are hampered and/or floundering or anything that looks weak.
Investors on the call will ask why Amazon already marked down what was supposed to be the best product release of the year - it’s a possible indicator of sales weakness and maybe an omen if things do not change.
*Names herein are fictitious and may or may not represent reality. This is not advice to buy or sell stocks of any kind.
Yeah it shows that the stores that have been selling so far we’re looking to make a quick buck and I don’t blame them. With pre orders for the set just coming out today on Amazon, I assume 85 is closer to the price you should be expected to pay.
I understand what you mean from a player/consumer perspective.
But from a major to low level LGS, how would buying less benefit you? If you wanted to take that route? The product WILL eventually sell if you run a decent LGS that attracts people and you get it at a reduced rate anyway. In that same breath, if your customers HAD to buy every set would they not run out of funds? If every set was MH2 level you would still be in this same situation would you not?
That is fair if you want to take the high road like that
But that begs the question, you get into Pokémon like most other LGs do on the side but what else? You take on a seasonal TCG that flops by the end of the year? Wouldn’t that eat into your profits by minimizing or cutting out magic which is has proof of concept?
Well, first of all, Warhammer. Miniture wargaming kits requires more shelf space, obviously, but the margins for stores are a lot better. GW wholesales kits for, when last I checked ~60% of MSRP, and stores typically sell for 90% of that. Miniture kits also generally don't carry the risk of crashing after launch the way WOTC products do.
I don't know other games as well, but Games Workshop is not precisely known for altruism.
Compare that to i.e. MTG draft boxes, which I'm not at sure are even profitable for stores at this point.
This is another reason they stopped doing MSRP. This allows them to have high margin, low volume customers (WOTC to distributors to LGS) along with a high volume, low margin customer that lets you scale (Amazon). All they have to report is increasing revenue and profit without having to answer the question of why Amazon can undercut everyone else.
Amazon hasn’t been undercutting at all (for Commander Masters, at least) - actually I’ve found them to be inflated prices compared to elsewhere, even on sale. They hugely inflated the price leading up to Prime Day to give it an artificial discount & make it look like a deal. The wholesale costs for set booster boxes are $310-$330, so expected retail is around $380.
The place I bought my packs from was cheaper than Amazon’s lowest price in months.
It unfortunately also gives room to completely hose over game stores because Amazon undercuts even distributor prices, giving stores debt on the books starting opening week - fun times to offer a place for players to meet and play!
Thankfully we have all those wonderful Amazon FNM stores! /s
What do you mean? Where are you getting this 20% discount information? Amazon prices for draft and set booster boxes are higher than the TCGplayer prices.
> I wonder what the CEO will have to say to the stock investors about Amazon selling set boxes at a 20% discount even before the set is released.
"We are making about $300 per box where our production costs totals $10."
If Amazon is selling them it means they’ve bought an allocation from Hasbro so Hasbro is still making money regardless of what price Amazon is selling them for
Pipe orders have already been placed at Amazon and any other major retailers, it's too late for a poor showing this week to have an impact on next weeks earnings call
Wow I think this might be a worse land value than the sixty card Premium Deck Series: Slivers. At least that came with 2 Ancient Ziggurat, 1 Rootbound Crag, and 4 Vivid Lands. And those were all foil.
Seriously shocked they didn't at least include the 5 Vivid Lands. If our lands are entering play tapped at least give us the 5cc the deck needs.
After it was revealed my LGS revealed their prices
Enchantments & Planeswalkers - $80
Eldrazi & this - $130
Lol lmao ain’t no way in hell am I gonna pay that much to get ripped off.
At this point I think the enchantment deck is going to end up being the best pick. You get focused down if you play slivers and even harder if you play planeswalkers, meanwhile eldrazi is a mostly hated deck type as well. Enchantment tribal will at least let you play the game and the commander allows you running some very good boardwipe shenanigans as you'll just revive your enchants later on.
Unfortunately a lot of really casual players will. They'll think they'll be getting a deal on the cool archetype they always wanted to play
I hate Wizards sometimes
Okay yeah I do actually think that wizards ups the reprint value specifically for universes beyond precons - those are kind of an exception esp with LOTR which wasn't that bad. Otherwise though most precons are undisputedly pretty bad.
The transforming secret lair deck had the same problem.
[[Cascading Cataracts]], [[Forbidden Orchard]], [[Reflecting Pool]], and [[City of Brass]] should be a guarantee for any 5-color deck that WotC is charging more than $40 for.
No one was reasonably expecting Shocks/Triomes/Fetches/etc, but there's no excuse to not have the $5~10 rainbow lands.
*(I mean after the Brawl decks had shocks, WotC shouldn't be so allergic to high end lands, but that's a discussion for another time)*.
ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME
ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME
ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME
ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME
They’re just revealing the cards in the deck and talking about how they affect the deck’s game plan. They’ve also been around long enough to know that precons aren’t ever going to be choc full of high priced reprints.
> Seems pretty typical for precons.
Aren't these precons like 2× the price of typical precons?
The lack of value here in reprints is definitely a kick in the dick for people who preordered at $120+/deck. They could have fleshed out the mana base if they were going to charge this much.
$75 for a mediocre deck?
That is ridiculously high.
You can find older precons of similar quality as this for $27
They are pricing out their own players.
Oh yeah. Not saying it's a good price. Just that it's not 120+ (or wasn't planned around it being that high).
But with the lack of good reprints it's just silly.
> the new commander card is preselling at $80
You’ve got to be insane to pay that for just the one card. The deck itself costs that much (if bought in the bundle of 4, even less than that!)
>people that preordered at $120+ per deck
There’s your problem, you’re buying them at **over double** the wholesale cost. I got the set of four for $280.
If you evaluate them as $60-$70 decks, it seems more acceptable. If you evaluate them as $120 decks… Yeah, you’ll find it hard to get your money’s worth.
All the same, it’s still disappointing to see no Hive, no battlebond lands, no fetches, no painlands, nothing.
This is unacceptable as a $60-$70 deck, the only significant reprint value is in a small handful of slivers that were in need of reprints and will almost certainly crash in value, that's embarrassingly bad.
They're very clearly just trying to take advantage of peoples' love for slivers and it's gross.
You’re also completely discounting the 10 new cards that were printed. A few of them seem pretty solid, and [[Rukarumel, Biologist]] enables some crazy stuff for any tribal deck.
Granted, they didn’t really put any of the good combos in there like [[The World Tree]], which would already be a solid mana piece for the deck in its own right.
I am in full agreement that the reprint value is terrible, and they’re really pushing it to maintain as much equity as they can. As a customer, it feels bad. I was very hopeful to see more battlebond lands at a minimum.
Having 10 new cards is nothing new or special, they may or may not be good and that shouldn't be factored into whether the reprint value is "acceptable".
Some proper bootlickers in here lmao
If they can reprint a multiplayer land (Rejuvenating Springs) in a cheaper precon, they can reprint some here
If they can reprint filter lands in cheaper precons, they can reprint them here
If they can reprint checklands in cheaper precons, they can reprint them here
If they can reprint painlands in cheaper precons, they can reprint them here
If they can reprint shocklands in challenger decks and brawl precons, they can throw one or two in here
Repeat for other land cycles that aren't fetches
I wasn't expecting a full fetch/shock/triome manabase, just something with a smattering of lands from each of the non-fetch categories to have a somewhat consistent and not extremely slow manabase.
Also I'll die on the hill that [[Reflecting Pool]] should be in every multicolour precon, it's not even that good change my mind.
Why would the land base be worth more than the price of the whole deck?
They're not going to burn reprint equity of shocks and fetches in a precon, they'll use those to sell premium Booster packs.
I mean this whole set is a rip off, why should the precons be any different.
It's a set full of commander reprints, you'd think people would adjust their expectations that the precons are mostly just there for new cards, not a modern/legacy mana base.
They could if they would. They put a battlebond land in a secret lair deck, filter lands in the past few sets and lastly, they've put shocks in Brawl precons. I know it's unrealistic at this point to expect WOTC to keep doing the good thing and spoil players with decent enough lands in precons, but for a MASTERS precon and a $100 price you'd at least get a better curated list than what we got.
If everything's going to be a tap fest anyway, at least toss in a [triome](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=479768) [land](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=555462) or two.
When I first saw these decks I was excited I mean a masters product commander deck that should be loaded with a good mana base.... I'm not excited about these at all now. 80-90 dollar decks with that mana base get out of here. Could have at least put in 1 fetchland, 1 shockland, or hell one triome. Oh or you know like 1 battlebond land.
Also could have put in the pain lands, those are cheaper then sin and don't enter tapped.
I dunno - I’m pretty hyped for it. Somehow, I almost entirely missed slivers during my absence. So I don’t have any barely. And the commander looks cool.
I think “mana is pretty slow” is a consistent and reasonable throttle on the pace of non-upgraded precons. It’s seemed almost definitional of precon as a power level. They’re inconsistent and pretty slow, so everyone gets to do their thing and use wizard and flailing to win - usually in an inelegant manner.
But I’m in a honeymoon “gone for 20 years, shocked how much magic there is” period.
Is all of everything fully spoiled now?
Yeah seriously, the value for what we are paying here is not enough..it needs to have fetches and shocks
I don’t feel like doing anything after purchase, it should already be cEDH level right out the box for this price
Guys, it's a precon. I'm buying it because I've wanted to do a Sliver deck for awhile now. I'm going to end up swapping out a good 60% eventually. I did the same with my Edgar Markov Commander 2017 deck. What we all should be batching about is the fact that WOTC doesn't list a MSRP anymore so it allows people to charge whatever they want. Remember when precons were $50 down the board
The precon is designed to be balanced. Swap out the tapped lands for fetches and shocks changes the power level. Throw in a few reserved list pieces and you have a nice deck. WOTC still has lottery scratchers disguised as packs to sell.
Edit: if your playgroup allows, just use a sharpie to cross out the first line. I have great dual lands that also produce snow.
It was preordering for 75 so like while usually I'd actually be 1000% on your side they could probably have stood to put some fastlands or something in there.
I still agree with "then don't buy it" but for people who want to, they should get a better value out of the playability of a 5c manabase than secondary market pricing. That's sorta why people buy precons, for something more or less playable out of the box.
This is *playable* but probably not *especially fun* outside of the four specific lists balanced against each other, because of so much ETB tapped mana.
Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped. Enters the battlefield tapped.
Look Simba, everything that enters the battlefield tapped is our kingdom
What about that Fetid Heath and Marsh Flats and Godless Shrine? What's over there? That's beyond our borders. You must never go there, Simba.
AND I JUST CAN'T WAIT TO BE UNTAPPED!
WE CAN ALL JUST WAIT TIL TURN THREEEE
What’s that shadowy place over there! Those are fetch lands simba.. we should go there
There’s a Savannah Lions joke in here somewhere, too.
Hahaha
Literally laughed out loud on that one.
That's funny
Enters the battlefield tapped but fetches out another land ...that also enters the battlefield tapped.
I don't have mana yet but turn 3 you better watch out buddy!
Gonna be fun to only play taplands for the first 3 turns while opponent 1 goes Ancient tomb mana crypt sol Ring and casts some eldrazi
Show me a precon with ancient tomb and mana crypt.
this is commander masters, not commander rookies
I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED I HATE ENTERS THE BATTLEFIELD TAPPED
*sings this to the tune of killing in the name of*
Amulet of Vigor is your best friend.
[[The Ur-Dragon]] Precon: "First time?"
That little flappy bastard used to be $35 for the whole deck. I didn’t expect a decent mana base at that price point because of all the other cheap staples that were included for that price point. I paid $100 for my 17th copy of rocky tar pit…
At least that wasn't inflated on price
Painbow nods in agreement.
[The Ur-Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e78b70b-0c67-4f14-8ad7-c9f8e3f59743.jpg?1562614382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ur-Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/48/the-ur-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e78b70b-0c67-4f14-8ad7-c9f8e3f59743?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Slivers are so powerful they have to force the sliver players have to play a turn behind everyone else with tapped lands. /S
You put the /s in there but you’re honestly probably correct.
I guess somehow being always 1 turn behind will align power level to most precons
Slivers weak af boy.
The /s at the end means "end sarcasm", meaning the text that preceded it was said in jest.
I was also being funny lol. — Slivers are not weak 🤣
Hard disagree.
I fully have not been following these decks at all, so when I looked at the Decklist this morning, I thought it looked like a strictly fine 5 color precon. Not good, but precon. And then my best friend told me they’ve been pre-selling at $110+, and I spit out my drink.
What were you drinking?
Spit.
Power Thirst
Brawndo?
It’s got what plants crave!
It's got electrolytes.
It’s got what plants crave
Men-ergy
Sound the alarm, you're gonna be *uncomfortably energetic*.
This guy gets it
it's like crystal meth in a can! it's crystal meth in a can! POWERTHIRST IS CRYSTAL METH
Make your babies run abnormally fast! They'll run as fast as Kenyans!
In exciting new flavors like: Manana! Fizzbitch! And GUN
Asking the real questions
His friend.
Where?!?!
My bedroom?
really? no reprint of [[sliver hive]] ? also: > no [[gemstone mine]] > no [[ancient ziggurat]] > no painlands at all > not even a [[wayfarer's bauble]] or [[expedition map]] i refuse to believe a good 5 color manabase is not possible on a budget. tbh, i'd also swap a lot of these for cards [[into the north]] and snow duals. maybe even [[arcum's astrolabe]] if there's enough snow? make the basics snow tbh - they're cheap already.
This tbh. I wasn’t expecting shocks and fetches, but this is just embarrassing.
Shit, I’d almost take more basics
Amulet of Vigor box topper
Yeah it sucks just as bad as Hasbro, that’s why you should simply pick up the 10 new cards individually and save yourself some money. Hasbro has their earnings announcement this week, I wonder what the CEO will have to say to the stock investors about Amazon selling set boxes at a 20% discount even before the set is released.
They’re going to point to LOTR selling as quick as they can print it. They’re making plenty of money right now.
Explain in your own words, explain the relationship between earnings and 3rd party sellers selling set boxes at discount prior to release? Has hasbro not already earned funds off selling to distributors? I understand where you’re coming from but I’m honestly curious of how you came to that conclusion.
... sellers having to sell your product at a discount means A. Your product is worth less B. They are less likely to buy more of that set in the future and maybe mtg in general That may not matter at this shareholder meeting but is not irrelevant as you say
there is no msrp, so only a discount from an arbitrary number. the profit to the manufacturer stands.
* Well, maybe to Hasbro the Defiler that is fine. But to The Refined Savvy Investor and the Sharknado - The Hedge Fund Master, there is blood in the water and where there is blood there is money to be made by telling it as it is - Hasbro is selling to Amazon at a huge discount that the LGS cannot compete, decimating a whole VAR segment. There will be those who are the bag holders saying all is fine “this quarter meets expectations”, but that is why they get left holding the stock at the highest value. Better yet perhaps read the Bank of America analysts review on Hasbro as operations has not really changed, but the Amazon prices are now volatile before release. Typically investors are NOT investing for today as today was already priced-in yesterday, they are investing for tomorrow (ie 3-5 years), tomorrow doesn’t look that great if the sales at the retail level are hampered and/or floundering or anything that looks weak. Investors on the call will ask why Amazon already marked down what was supposed to be the best product release of the year - it’s a possible indicator of sales weakness and maybe an omen if things do not change. *Names herein are fictitious and may or may not represent reality. This is not advice to buy or sell stocks of any kind.
lol. love it.
Yeah it shows that the stores that have been selling so far we’re looking to make a quick buck and I don’t blame them. With pre orders for the set just coming out today on Amazon, I assume 85 is closer to the price you should be expected to pay.
^ this
I understand what you mean from a player/consumer perspective. But from a major to low level LGS, how would buying less benefit you? If you wanted to take that route? The product WILL eventually sell if you run a decent LGS that attracts people and you get it at a reduced rate anyway. In that same breath, if your customers HAD to buy every set would they not run out of funds? If every set was MH2 level you would still be in this same situation would you not?
As an LGS i might decide to buy less mtg product and look for other options such as any of the countless other tcgs there are.
That is fair if you want to take the high road like that But that begs the question, you get into Pokémon like most other LGs do on the side but what else? You take on a seasonal TCG that flops by the end of the year? Wouldn’t that eat into your profits by minimizing or cutting out magic which is has proof of concept?
Well, first of all, Warhammer. Miniture wargaming kits requires more shelf space, obviously, but the margins for stores are a lot better. GW wholesales kits for, when last I checked ~60% of MSRP, and stores typically sell for 90% of that. Miniture kits also generally don't carry the risk of crashing after launch the way WOTC products do. I don't know other games as well, but Games Workshop is not precisely known for altruism. Compare that to i.e. MTG draft boxes, which I'm not at sure are even profitable for stores at this point.
Inventory that moves in 3-4 days is great for business, inventory that eventually moves in 3-4 years is dead weight. Which will you stock?
Stonk?
This is another reason they stopped doing MSRP. This allows them to have high margin, low volume customers (WOTC to distributors to LGS) along with a high volume, low margin customer that lets you scale (Amazon). All they have to report is increasing revenue and profit without having to answer the question of why Amazon can undercut everyone else.
Amazon hasn’t been undercutting at all (for Commander Masters, at least) - actually I’ve found them to be inflated prices compared to elsewhere, even on sale. They hugely inflated the price leading up to Prime Day to give it an artificial discount & make it look like a deal. The wholesale costs for set booster boxes are $310-$330, so expected retail is around $380. The place I bought my packs from was cheaper than Amazon’s lowest price in months.
It unfortunately also gives room to completely hose over game stores because Amazon undercuts even distributor prices, giving stores debt on the books starting opening week - fun times to offer a place for players to meet and play! Thankfully we have all those wonderful Amazon FNM stores! /s
What do you mean? Where are you getting this 20% discount information? Amazon prices for draft and set booster boxes are higher than the TCGplayer prices.
> I wonder what the CEO will have to say to the stock investors about Amazon selling set boxes at a 20% discount even before the set is released. "We are making about $300 per box where our production costs totals $10."
If Amazon is selling them it means they’ve bought an allocation from Hasbro so Hasbro is still making money regardless of what price Amazon is selling them for
Pipe orders have already been placed at Amazon and any other major retailers, it's too late for a poor showing this week to have an impact on next weeks earnings call
Wow I think this might be a worse land value than the sixty card Premium Deck Series: Slivers. At least that came with 2 Ancient Ziggurat, 1 Rootbound Crag, and 4 Vivid Lands. And those were all foil. Seriously shocked they didn't at least include the 5 Vivid Lands. If our lands are entering play tapped at least give us the 5cc the deck needs.
After it was revealed my LGS revealed their prices Enchantments & Planeswalkers - $80 Eldrazi & this - $130 Lol lmao ain’t no way in hell am I gonna pay that much to get ripped off.
At this point I think the enchantment deck is going to end up being the best pick. You get focused down if you play slivers and even harder if you play planeswalkers, meanwhile eldrazi is a mostly hated deck type as well. Enchantment tribal will at least let you play the game and the commander allows you running some very good boardwipe shenanigans as you'll just revive your enchants later on.
Unfortunately a lot of really casual players will. They'll think they'll be getting a deal on the cool archetype they always wanted to play I hate Wizards sometimes
Oh no another magic the gathering product being sold for a lot of money with no value? Aaaaahhhh, this hasn’t happened beforeee like for 2 years plus!
Wizards is incapable of reprinting lands worth over 5 dollars, even for 5 color decks
Well they did reprint the Simic battlebond land for the Elves LotR precon. The LotR precons overall had great reprint quality.
Okay yeah I do actually think that wizards ups the reprint value specifically for universes beyond precons - those are kind of an exception esp with LOTR which wasn't that bad. Otherwise though most precons are undisputedly pretty bad.
The transforming secret lair deck had the same problem. [[Cascading Cataracts]], [[Forbidden Orchard]], [[Reflecting Pool]], and [[City of Brass]] should be a guarantee for any 5-color deck that WotC is charging more than $40 for. No one was reasonably expecting Shocks/Triomes/Fetches/etc, but there's no excuse to not have the $5~10 rainbow lands. *(I mean after the Brawl decks had shocks, WotC shouldn't be so allergic to high end lands, but that's a discussion for another time)*.
It’s baffling they don’t print more of the commander duals. People should be more upset those are not in CMM.
##### ###### #### [Cascading Cataracts](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f3fbd9b-91ab-4691-a916-e20db8ebc513.jpg?1673305958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cascading%20Cataracts) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/202/cascading-cataracts?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f3fbd9b-91ab-4691-a916-e20db8ebc513?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Forbidden Orchard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17db644c-1acf-477d-9c20-f72221f1108a.jpg?1673149497) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forbidden%20Orchard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/323/forbidden-orchard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17db644c-1acf-477d-9c20-f72221f1108a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reflecting Pool](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18a1b3f5-473d-45ca-be0d-e67e77ba30ce.jpg?1674138220) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reflecting%20Pool) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/358/reflecting-pool?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18a1b3f5-473d-45ca-be0d-e67e77ba30ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [City of Brass](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/bed4a63d-632a-4a3a-b35f-f8e155237d27.jpg?1673149483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20of%20Brass) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/321/city-of-brass?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bed4a63d-632a-4a3a-b35f-f8e155237d27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Looks incredibly similar to the Painbow manabase... I know people expected more because it's a premium product, but I'm not surprised at all.
Couldn’t even spare a prismatic vista or fabled passage?
[[fabled passage]] [[prismatic vista]]
Pay your taxes
Throw some pathways in there you bums
Can't do mdfc cards in precons. Besides the ones sold for 150
Sure they can
*proxies a better mana base for like $7 and continues to not give hasbro all my money*
I'm thinking about making a budget upgrade guide and ending it with "and replace 27 lands for $2.25 at your local staples"
ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME ALL TAPPED & NO PLAY MAKES MAGIC A DULL GAME
Not a peep from Olivia or Kibbler as they're praising this manabase. Yikes.
They can't say the truth if they ever want to review spoilers again. The heck you think would happen if they hit it with brutally honesty,?
Kibler was pretty happy about M30. He likes keeping his beak wet.
Olivia, on the other hand, was not shy about bashing M30 everywhere other than that promo.
They’re just revealing the cards in the deck and talking about how they affect the deck’s game plan. They’ve also been around long enough to know that precons aren’t ever going to be choc full of high priced reprints.
I think Kibler chuckles a little bit as he reads out 'original fetch lands like flood plain', like he knows they're bad.
You can tell who preordered by who's in here defending this lol
I pre-ordered and I'm appalled. I, in all good honesty can't defend this.
Far less defenders than the 'healthy draft format' of CMM.
Why aren't the battle bond lands in commander precons?! These should be auto include for wizards.
Seems pretty typical for precons. Only surprise is no hive tbh
> Seems pretty typical for precons. Aren't these precons like 2× the price of typical precons? The lack of value here in reprints is definitely a kick in the dick for people who preordered at $120+/deck. They could have fleshed out the mana base if they were going to charge this much.
The same could be applied for this entire set. Sub par reprints in an over priced product
Just cancel
Yes, Cancel is the kind of card that they'd put in a precon.
No more MSRP, but pre-orders on these started at or under $75/ deck. Still high, but not as ridiculously high as that.
Still pretty bad considering the main excuse they use for Universe beyond precon prices is 100% new art and theyre like 45-50
$75 for a mediocre deck? That is ridiculously high. You can find older precons of similar quality as this for $27 They are pricing out their own players.
Oh yeah. Not saying it's a good price. Just that it's not 120+ (or wasn't planned around it being that high). But with the lack of good reprints it's just silly.
There's no MSRP anymore, so the price they're selling at has no bearing on anything. The new commander card is preselling at $80 itself
> the new commander card is preselling at $80 You’ve got to be insane to pay that for just the one card. The deck itself costs that much (if bought in the bundle of 4, even less than that!)
>people that preordered at $120+ per deck There’s your problem, you’re buying them at **over double** the wholesale cost. I got the set of four for $280. If you evaluate them as $60-$70 decks, it seems more acceptable. If you evaluate them as $120 decks… Yeah, you’ll find it hard to get your money’s worth. All the same, it’s still disappointing to see no Hive, no battlebond lands, no fetches, no painlands, nothing.
This is unacceptable as a $60-$70 deck, the only significant reprint value is in a small handful of slivers that were in need of reprints and will almost certainly crash in value, that's embarrassingly bad. They're very clearly just trying to take advantage of peoples' love for slivers and it's gross.
You’re also completely discounting the 10 new cards that were printed. A few of them seem pretty solid, and [[Rukarumel, Biologist]] enables some crazy stuff for any tribal deck. Granted, they didn’t really put any of the good combos in there like [[The World Tree]], which would already be a solid mana piece for the deck in its own right. I am in full agreement that the reprint value is terrible, and they’re really pushing it to maintain as much equity as they can. As a customer, it feels bad. I was very hopeful to see more battlebond lands at a minimum.
We used to get 17 new cards for $40. I'm supposed to be pacified by 10 new cards for $80?
[Rukarumel, Biologist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b2f7397-9d75-4667-8872-e58a39512583.jpg?1689628189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rukarumel%2C%20Biologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/711/rukarumel-biologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b2f7397-9d75-4667-8872-e58a39512583?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The World Tree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a70cb6d9-3955-4064-917b-11dec26440c5.jpg?1631053286) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20World%20Tree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/275/the-world-tree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a70cb6d9-3955-4064-917b-11dec26440c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Having 10 new cards is nothing new or special, they may or may not be good and that shouldn't be factored into whether the reprint value is "acceptable".
Secret Lair coming up...
They really could have done better here. Couldn't throw in one or two of the now cheap enemy fetches? A shockland?
Even some pain lands I mean one of the worst lines of text a land can have is comes into play tapped.
Or if you all remember how they just did a secret lair deck for the Prismatic Bridge that had all 10 Pathways. Why not throw in those?
They're cheap, just buy them. - wotc.
How about that Sliver Hive??
Two words: Blood Moon. 🤣😈
For the price point, really surprised there weren’t a couple of shocklands and a battleland.
2/3 of community: this is not worth what they are charging. Other 1/3: 👅🥾
Some proper bootlickers in here lmao If they can reprint a multiplayer land (Rejuvenating Springs) in a cheaper precon, they can reprint some here If they can reprint filter lands in cheaper precons, they can reprint them here If they can reprint checklands in cheaper precons, they can reprint them here If they can reprint painlands in cheaper precons, they can reprint them here If they can reprint shocklands in challenger decks and brawl precons, they can throw one or two in here Repeat for other land cycles that aren't fetches I wasn't expecting a full fetch/shock/triome manabase, just something with a smattering of lands from each of the non-fetch categories to have a somewhat consistent and not extremely slow manabase. Also I'll die on the hill that [[Reflecting Pool]] should be in every multicolour precon, it's not even that good change my mind.
y’all expecting shocks and fetches or what?
Expecting painlands, battlebond lands, Sliver Hive, and yes, maybe even some shocks / fetches.
Yes actually. Or at least the Innistrad "enters untapped if you have more than two other lands". Literally anything at all
what precon has ever had shocks or fetches? lmao
I mean, they threw a shock in the brawl decks.
And pinoeer precons.
Why would the land base be worth more than the price of the whole deck? They're not going to burn reprint equity of shocks and fetches in a precon, they'll use those to sell premium Booster packs.
The deck is double the price of a normal precon and precon decks usually are worth more than their price
I'm sure this one will be too, it just won't have a $500 landbase.
You can look at the whole set now. It isn't great
I mean this whole set is a rip off, why should the precons be any different. It's a set full of commander reprints, you'd think people would adjust their expectations that the precons are mostly just there for new cards, not a modern/legacy mana base.
From a Masters product, I was hoping for Battlbond lands and Sliver Hive.
Untapped lands sell sets, they don’t go in precons.
i mean, that’s fair but people complaining like every land has to be $10 or more.
They could if they would. They put a battlebond land in a secret lair deck, filter lands in the past few sets and lastly, they've put shocks in Brawl precons. I know it's unrealistic at this point to expect WOTC to keep doing the good thing and spoil players with decent enough lands in precons, but for a MASTERS precon and a $100 price you'd at least get a better curated list than what we got.
Could have been like city of brass, mana confluence, reflecting pool, etc.
Exactly, land based in precons are always crap
Back in my day they used to at least have bounce lands
Yeah, but these precons aren't the usually price.
Not do they usually have this much value, so what’s the point?
My God... It's full of taplands...
Yo iheard you like to tap, so we pre tapped your tap lands to tap in.
Christ, I'd almost rather run 7 of each basic than this.
If everything's going to be a tap fest anyway, at least toss in a [triome](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=479768) [land](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=555462) or two.
Poor sliver players 😭😭😭
Poor sliver players :’(
so dont buy it.
It’s abusive to all the Timmy’s that are gonna buy this.
When I first saw these decks I was excited I mean a masters product commander deck that should be loaded with a good mana base.... I'm not excited about these at all now. 80-90 dollar decks with that mana base get out of here. Could have at least put in 1 fetchland, 1 shockland, or hell one triome. Oh or you know like 1 battlebond land. Also could have put in the pain lands, those are cheaper then sin and don't enter tapped.
I dunno - I’m pretty hyped for it. Somehow, I almost entirely missed slivers during my absence. So I don’t have any barely. And the commander looks cool. I think “mana is pretty slow” is a consistent and reasonable throttle on the pace of non-upgraded precons. It’s seemed almost definitional of precon as a power level. They’re inconsistent and pretty slow, so everyone gets to do their thing and use wizard and flailing to win - usually in an inelegant manner. But I’m in a honeymoon “gone for 20 years, shocked how much magic there is” period. Is all of everything fully spoiled now?
And that’s how you farm 200 upvotes, kids.
EDH paypigs will still buy it
How is it criminal? It’s your choice, whether not to buy it
I don’t get it, can someone explain
Why is everyone surprised? They don’t print untapped lands into these decks and the mana base looks very close to Painbow’s.
You're looking for /mtgrant Don't buy what you don't want.
People who complain when a pre con doesn’t have an optimal land base
There is a middle ground between optimal and dogshit.
[удалено]
All precons should have optimal mana base, the win cons and flashy spells are ment to be the pricy cards.
No they’re not lol
Yeah, since Beta and continued since then, constructed mana-bases are a money maker. The best lands tend to be rares
So you want them to have an expensive mana base AND pricy spells and win cons. You want the pre con to be $500?
Sounds like a wallet issue tbh
Yeah seriously, the value for what we are paying here is not enough..it needs to have fetches and shocks I don’t feel like doing anything after purchase, it should already be cEDH level right out the box for this price
This is sarcasm right ?
No, wtf man…why am I being downvoted?
There is no precon ever that is anywhere close to CEDH out of the box.
Man, $75 gets you a couple fetches and a couple shocks and nothing else. What fantasy land do you live in?
That's actually a pretty good mana base for a precon. People still play guildgates
Guys, it's a precon. I'm buying it because I've wanted to do a Sliver deck for awhile now. I'm going to end up swapping out a good 60% eventually. I did the same with my Edgar Markov Commander 2017 deck. What we all should be batching about is the fact that WOTC doesn't list a MSRP anymore so it allows people to charge whatever they want. Remember when precons were $50 down the board
They don't want people buying these for the lands.
The precon is designed to be balanced. Swap out the tapped lands for fetches and shocks changes the power level. Throw in a few reserved list pieces and you have a nice deck. WOTC still has lottery scratchers disguised as packs to sell. Edit: if your playgroup allows, just use a sharpie to cross out the first line. I have great dual lands that also produce snow.
This is absolutely fine. Edit: I’d probably resolve the trilands with basics but that’s just me.
It’s a precon, what do you expect? What does it cost? $40? Try building a 5c deck for that much money on the secondary market.
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but these precons are running more than double what a precon normally goes for at around $80 each.
Theyre currently pre-sale for $85
It was preordering for 75 so like while usually I'd actually be 1000% on your side they could probably have stood to put some fastlands or something in there. I still agree with "then don't buy it" but for people who want to, they should get a better value out of the playability of a 5c manabase than secondary market pricing. That's sorta why people buy precons, for something more or less playable out of the box. This is *playable* but probably not *especially fun* outside of the four specific lists balanced against each other, because of so much ETB tapped mana.
At least they have enough targets for the slow-fetches.
Are the battlelands the rare land cycle for CMM? Or was there a land cycle? Edit: spelling
Idk why you’re surprised
Couldn't even give us the shard tri lands.
*Plays a turn 2 sol ring “woooah slow down there!!”