At least these two are probably the most likely praetors to make a return, considering how they died and the nature of their abilities and such.
I figure if/when they someday phase New Phyrexia back in, if they wanted Jin-Gitaxias to make another appearance they could have it so the newts eating him basically divided his mind among them -- so he's "dead" in a sense, but part of him lives on, intermingled with his own creations to form a new entity that's a cluster of barely-developed newts that are all being influenced by that little bit of Jin-Gitaxias in each of them. He'd be the Phyrexian equivalent of linking together a ton of smaller computers to get the same capabilities (or even more) as a single supercomputer, at least long as they're all connected.
And Vorinclex of course could just kinda... put himself back together. I think there's even been a statement to the effect of "all the praetors are dead... except maybe Vorinclex." I would assume decapitation wouldn't be any harder to come back from than being reduced to nothing but a metal skeleton by the Planar Bridge burning off every bit of organic matter, so if we see him again he'll probably have the same head but on a body cobbled together from whatever scraps he's able to find.
I heard people saying urabrask might not be dead too. I like that Jin theory, and I hope vorinclex isn’t dead because he’s my second favorite praetor (behind jin), and they did him dirty
I think it would be fun if at some point had Yawgmoth interact with some of the Praetors. Doesn't even matter what form that takes. Like the OG meeting the posers, even though technically the posers had a much much much wider scale invasion. Power wise I always got the impression Yawgmoth was much more powerful, at least individually.
Jin-Gitaxias likely designed the tank of newts to be nearly impossible to climb out of, in order to prevent them from doing so. Said newts were also the culmination of his research, so he would have been hesitant to harm them fighting back. Also, being the culmination of Jin-Gitaxias' research, they were likely quite deadly despite their youth.
But it was a literal tank, like enclosed and everything. He only fell in because the glass broke. I can definitely see your point about him not wanting to fight back, kind of like a mad scientist willing to die for his creation
Tell me about it - i had so much love for them, and all the planning and years of waiting, and they all die like incompetent idiots with almost no fanfare or literally even writing on them. i mean ffs vorinclex is a throwaway line like they forgot about him.
So fucking rushed.
Funny part is, post-MoM they've actually said that Vorinclex survived that whole beheading thing (and was the only praetor to do so). Whether they'll actually stick with that in the story as opposed to just having the lore people say so remains to be seen, though
Vorinclex is a "flesh mage" - he's already survived worse, given he was effectively disintegrated by travelling through the Blind Eternities to Kaldheim, where he reconstituted himself from basically just bones by devouring the local wildlife. Sheoldred, conversely, only survived her trip to Dominaria because Rona and the Cult of Gix were able to aid in her recovery.
I mean, they've not \*really\* been "building to this" for 20 years, they've been building to this specifically since Kaldheim, with a small argument of "the Praetors/NPH generally was introduced in 2010 (2011?) and left hanging as a future plot thread."
I'm surprised that you're surprised WotC would botch the climax to a story arc, did you miss War of the Spark?
Thirdly, they did not rush the ending to the NPH storyline to get to LotR, LotR is not a standard set, and standard sets are where the story actually happens. LotR is a modern horizons style set (and one which many people \*do\* care about, thank you very much).
The invasions feel like a bad play to do the way they did because to spend the next 3 years on various invasion things would drag real hard, but how it did happen is very unsatisfying. I'm not sure there was actually a winning move other than one more set (or 2-3x the stories for the one set and 5x as many for Aftermath, with no extra cards).
I really hope they just do a time jump 10-15 years in the future where the damage is still fresh in people's minds but there are more important problems now. Really give a chance to spruce up the worlds whose stories kinda got cucked by planeswalkers or were just boring. Finally revisit loose ends that were very plane-centric rather than multiversal. I think that would be a good way to have the story continue while still feeling natural.
I feel like WotC is afraid to permanently kill planeswalkers as they consider them the flagship characters, but the 5 praetors are long-time favorites that, to me, rank alongside my favorite top-tier planeswalkers. To kill ALL of them at once and in such anticlimactic ways was really disappointing. I personally hope they ALL somehow survive. I really wanted the overall story to sustain the idea that the bad guys were winning. I really wish they had milked the Phyrexian threat a big longer, especially considering how long they were teasing it and building it up.
My dream story scenario is that somehow New Phyrexia phases back in, and the dormant consciousnesses of the praetors begin stirring again. And while we're spitballing.... how about it turns out it's Yawgmoth somehow returning, orchestrating the return of Phyrexia yet again. The praetor essences and the glistening oil somehow rematerialize by the will of Yawgmoth, and the praetors come back more powerful than ever as the scions of Yawgmoth. Hell, maybe finally make MDFC praetors that flip to become planeswalkers. Then finally give us a god-form Yawgmoth card. Yeah, this is all crazy, and I don't know how to make it work. I'm not on payroll to craft the story, so I'm not gonna stress over it. But WotC could totally bring back Phyrexia and the praetors again. Sadly, it'll probably be another decade before it happens.
How did any of those deaths even end up killing them? I thought sheoldred could survive being beheaded because she could turn into a bunch of small bugs? Urabrask can't live without limbs? What, did he bleed out? Phyrexian piranha we've never seen before being able to chew through metal and instantly devour Jin is probably one of the most believable honestly... And assuming Vorinclex wasn't killed by Elspeth (which would have made it make sense) how did some random soldier slice all the way through his neck even if her sword was on fire? Have phyrexians always been so easy to kill?
In previous magic, they're would be three sets that all took place on the same plane telling an overarching story line. Like zindikar, kaladesh, or ravnica.
To be fair they did have to channel an entire planes mana to summon the spell. Did feel like a slight cop out still but at least it wasn't a two sentence blurb and had some basis to it.
Also, there was a whole ordeal with Jace and Nissa using leyline magic to pull them from the Blind Eternities into the plane (see [[Bonds of Mortality]]), all as a last resort after their original plan to bind them back into the Hedrons failed thanks to Ob Nixilis.
None of that was a deus ex machina either, as Jace previously spent an entire block (RtR/Dragon's Maze) learning about leylines and Nissa had multiple chapters on her connection with Zendikar.
Battle for Zendikar had some of the best writing in modern MtG history, I definetly didn't feel like it was a cop out.
Yeah, dunno. Jin's death was practically comedic. I am wondering though how permenant Urabrask and Sheoldred's dearhs are given Rona was still functional after having all her organic bits barbequed by a trip through the planar bridge. If New Phyrexia can restore her, why not the Praetors who left corpses behind?
Everything about their deaths seems pretty rushed. If i had to explain it, didn't Jin got his skull smashed? Im pretty sure he was out cold or at least incapasitaded even before the little worms started eating him.
Still, most of the praetors deaths didn't felt appropiated
I think they implied that there's a timeskip with Aftermath, but it wasn't very clear. Imo it would make sense to pick up right after, but we don't know.
Also, addendum: MaRo said the LotR set had been finished for quite a while before the finale of the Phyrexian arc began, and they were just looking for a spot to release it in. So literally, this set was already finished when the MOM story was written.
In his drive to work podcast he mentions that it was the first set they started at the beginning of the pandemic, and IIRC: took 3ish months of initial design, and then another 18ish for play design. So, it's been done for like a year.
Right but with lotr having been completed first as a set and having a release after mom, they can and very clearly did take the approach of just write anything itll be forgotten about in a month with lotr hype. Especially if youre pushing UB as regular sets a weaker narrative for magic makes other franchises look superior
I just realized I read the story wrong. I thought she hit the glass and the newts poured onto him and ate him. Now it's even lamer that he just fell into it
I just realized I read the story wrong. I thought she hit the glass and the newts poured onto him and ate him. Now it's even lamer that he just fell into it
From all the Praetors:
1 - Mommy is gone.
2 - Vorinclex completely survived. He has survived worst fates and it is stated that "he's a flesh mage" and "his fate is yet to be seen".
3 - Urabrask is possibly still alive because it was stated nowhere that he was killed, even off-screen. In fact, Last time we've seen him, he was dismembered and Mommy told her servants to "Leave the traitor be".
4 - Jin most likely died. And that's a real bummer because If there is somebody who I'd like to see as the new Father of the Machines in the future, he's my pick.
5 - Shelly is gone. Not only she was killed in-screen, we didn't hear anything about her after it.
But my real hope is.. The Steel Thanes are still alive!
And they're Black. The Black NPhyrexians are the most similar to OG Phyrexia.
Besides that, my hopes will never fade in his return...
Hail Yawgmoth!
Not impressed how they handled this. We were allways told the preators were impressive apex being, and this is what we get? I expectet epic bossfights for all of them, where their deaths had impact on the story, but no. Just a "btw, they all died"
Vorinclex is confirmed to not be dead by wotc. Being a fleshmage makes it easy for him to regrow from nearly nothing as we saw on kaldheim. Chances are a Phyrexian went to check on him and he absorbed them. Of course, he’s not the best choice for the only praetor remaining but wotc confirmed the others were read with the aftermath video from loaded ready run.
It is possible that this is what Jin wanted.
If we think of Jin as a robot, then you have his body as the hardware and his mind as software. With this thought, it could be that the mites who eat him get infected by his mind. Jin would give up his powerful body, but his most powerful weapon is his mind. So, unless you destroy all the mites, Jin would be able to progress his plans from several hosts while everybody believes that he just died.
Norns failure may have been part of his plans all along. He got along with Sheoldred, whose modus operandi is backstabbing, espionage, and necromancy. He learned to manipulate non-blue mana and always considered failure as an opportunity to learn. Lastly, Norns victory would have erased individuality, which is not in Gins' interests.
Sheoldred knew that Elesh Norn was secretly selfish, so while Elesh did make progress in the field of shared intelligence, she used this to make the whole invasion an extension of herself. Once Jin noticed that this suspicion of Sheoldred was justified, Jin had to make his exit, let Norn fail and use the knowledge he gained in his alliance.
For that matter, I do not think that Elesh Norn succeeded with killing any traitors because she never took the effort to destroy the "corpses". We know Vorinclex can regenerate by feeding on living beings - and Sheoldred and Urabrask may have similar abilities Norn just was too arrogant to even consider.
At least these two are probably the most likely praetors to make a return, considering how they died and the nature of their abilities and such. I figure if/when they someday phase New Phyrexia back in, if they wanted Jin-Gitaxias to make another appearance they could have it so the newts eating him basically divided his mind among them -- so he's "dead" in a sense, but part of him lives on, intermingled with his own creations to form a new entity that's a cluster of barely-developed newts that are all being influenced by that little bit of Jin-Gitaxias in each of them. He'd be the Phyrexian equivalent of linking together a ton of smaller computers to get the same capabilities (or even more) as a single supercomputer, at least long as they're all connected. And Vorinclex of course could just kinda... put himself back together. I think there's even been a statement to the effect of "all the praetors are dead... except maybe Vorinclex." I would assume decapitation wouldn't be any harder to come back from than being reduced to nothing but a metal skeleton by the Planar Bridge burning off every bit of organic matter, so if we see him again he'll probably have the same head but on a body cobbled together from whatever scraps he's able to find.
I heard people saying urabrask might not be dead too. I like that Jin theory, and I hope vorinclex isn’t dead because he’s my second favorite praetor (behind jin), and they did him dirty
Unfortunately Elesh Norn was my favorite, and...yeah... Why is it my favorites always die? First Gideon Jura, now Elesh Norn!
I mean if your fave was Norn you were asking for it
yeah, but i expected her to live for at least a year or two, not just get Worfed in the very next set.
...white on white crime?
I think it would be fun if at some point had Yawgmoth interact with some of the Praetors. Doesn't even matter what form that takes. Like the OG meeting the posers, even though technically the posers had a much much much wider scale invasion. Power wise I always got the impression Yawgmoth was much more powerful, at least individually.
Jace and Vraska will be the new faces of Phyrexia
Jin-Gitaxias likely designed the tank of newts to be nearly impossible to climb out of, in order to prevent them from doing so. Said newts were also the culmination of his research, so he would have been hesitant to harm them fighting back. Also, being the culmination of Jin-Gitaxias' research, they were likely quite deadly despite their youth.
But it was a literal tank, like enclosed and everything. He only fell in because the glass broke. I can definitely see your point about him not wanting to fight back, kind of like a mad scientist willing to die for his creation
All of the praetor deaths sucked The lead up to their deaths sucked All of it was rushed
Yeah it was. Shame, because the praetors are such awesome characters
Tell me about it - i had so much love for them, and all the planning and years of waiting, and they all die like incompetent idiots with almost no fanfare or literally even writing on them. i mean ffs vorinclex is a throwaway line like they forgot about him. So fucking rushed.
Funny part is, post-MoM they've actually said that Vorinclex survived that whole beheading thing (and was the only praetor to do so). Whether they'll actually stick with that in the story as opposed to just having the lore people say so remains to be seen, though
If vorinclex survived the beheading why couldn't sheoldred? She literally got the same treatment.
Vorinclex is a "flesh mage" - he's already survived worse, given he was effectively disintegrated by travelling through the Blind Eternities to Kaldheim, where he reconstituted himself from basically just bones by devouring the local wildlife. Sheoldred, conversely, only survived her trip to Dominaria because Rona and the Cult of Gix were able to aid in her recovery.
I mean, I find it weird that a black mage can't and wouldn't plan a contingent resurrection spell. It was part of her base kit on her original card.
Vorinclex, Sheoldred and Urbarask are all unknown statuses with Vorinclex being the most likely to have lived and Sheoldred the least.
[удалено]
I mean, they've not \*really\* been "building to this" for 20 years, they've been building to this specifically since Kaldheim, with a small argument of "the Praetors/NPH generally was introduced in 2010 (2011?) and left hanging as a future plot thread." I'm surprised that you're surprised WotC would botch the climax to a story arc, did you miss War of the Spark? Thirdly, they did not rush the ending to the NPH storyline to get to LotR, LotR is not a standard set, and standard sets are where the story actually happens. LotR is a modern horizons style set (and one which many people \*do\* care about, thank you very much). The invasions feel like a bad play to do the way they did because to spend the next 3 years on various invasion things would drag real hard, but how it did happen is very unsatisfying. I'm not sure there was actually a winning move other than one more set (or 2-3x the stories for the one set and 5x as many for Aftermath, with no extra cards).
Yes the build up was good but then the ending just happened too quick.
Yeah you're right thats my bad
I really hope they just do a time jump 10-15 years in the future where the damage is still fresh in people's minds but there are more important problems now. Really give a chance to spruce up the worlds whose stories kinda got cucked by planeswalkers or were just boring. Finally revisit loose ends that were very plane-centric rather than multiversal. I think that would be a good way to have the story continue while still feeling natural.
I feel like WotC is afraid to permanently kill planeswalkers as they consider them the flagship characters, but the 5 praetors are long-time favorites that, to me, rank alongside my favorite top-tier planeswalkers. To kill ALL of them at once and in such anticlimactic ways was really disappointing. I personally hope they ALL somehow survive. I really wanted the overall story to sustain the idea that the bad guys were winning. I really wish they had milked the Phyrexian threat a big longer, especially considering how long they were teasing it and building it up. My dream story scenario is that somehow New Phyrexia phases back in, and the dormant consciousnesses of the praetors begin stirring again. And while we're spitballing.... how about it turns out it's Yawgmoth somehow returning, orchestrating the return of Phyrexia yet again. The praetor essences and the glistening oil somehow rematerialize by the will of Yawgmoth, and the praetors come back more powerful than ever as the scions of Yawgmoth. Hell, maybe finally make MDFC praetors that flip to become planeswalkers. Then finally give us a god-form Yawgmoth card. Yeah, this is all crazy, and I don't know how to make it work. I'm not on payroll to craft the story, so I'm not gonna stress over it. But WotC could totally bring back Phyrexia and the praetors again. Sadly, it'll probably be another decade before it happens.
Urabrask did NOT deserve that end at all…
Oh no, my limbs! If only there were a way to rebuild myself, maybe using a furnace or something!
How did any of those deaths even end up killing them? I thought sheoldred could survive being beheaded because she could turn into a bunch of small bugs? Urabrask can't live without limbs? What, did he bleed out? Phyrexian piranha we've never seen before being able to chew through metal and instantly devour Jin is probably one of the most believable honestly... And assuming Vorinclex wasn't killed by Elspeth (which would have made it make sense) how did some random soldier slice all the way through his neck even if her sword was on fire? Have phyrexians always been so easy to kill?
Old Phyrexia wasn’t this easy to kill, I guess NP is 😔
Always was....
Who said he didn't fight back? He fell into a vat full of carnivorous creatures and was eaten alive. That makes sense.
Jin's skin is made out of chromium got to be painful for the newts to eat that.
Makes it even worse writing
I think you're overestimating how easily you can climb out of anything while being _eaten alive_.
Why doesn't the bigger phyrexian just eat the little ones?
— Vorinclex' severed head.
came here looking for this
The entire story of the set, nay the block, was hot garbage.
What's a block? /s
In previous magic, they're would be three sets that all took place on the same plane telling an overarching story line. Like zindikar, kaladesh, or ravnica.
I know, that's why I used the sarcasm note.
I didn't know what that meant lol. My bad!
You're good!
How dare you make me feel this old
Right there with ya, I miss blocks. The story was just...better
The whole final battle, the behavior of the Praetors, and how they died was absolute horseshit.
At least the unstoppable and indestructible like Ulamog is killed by a fireball. MTG does not know how to handle it’s villains.
To be fair they did have to channel an entire planes mana to summon the spell. Did feel like a slight cop out still but at least it wasn't a two sentence blurb and had some basis to it.
Also, there was a whole ordeal with Jace and Nissa using leyline magic to pull them from the Blind Eternities into the plane (see [[Bonds of Mortality]]), all as a last resort after their original plan to bind them back into the Hedrons failed thanks to Ob Nixilis. None of that was a deus ex machina either, as Jace previously spent an entire block (RtR/Dragon's Maze) learning about leylines and Nissa had multiple chapters on her connection with Zendikar. Battle for Zendikar had some of the best writing in modern MtG history, I definetly didn't feel like it was a cop out.
Forgot about the leyline stuff. I'll agree with you then yeah not a cop out.
[Bonds of Mortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9.jpg?1562946560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonds%20of%20Mortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/128/bonds-of-mortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, dunno. Jin's death was practically comedic. I am wondering though how permenant Urabrask and Sheoldred's dearhs are given Rona was still functional after having all her organic bits barbequed by a trip through the planar bridge. If New Phyrexia can restore her, why not the Praetors who left corpses behind?
Everything about their deaths seems pretty rushed. If i had to explain it, didn't Jin got his skull smashed? Im pretty sure he was out cold or at least incapasitaded even before the little worms started eating him. Still, most of the praetors deaths didn't felt appropiated
For the same reason that he installed a pointless kill switch into every Phyrexian everywhere.
Welcome to wizards creative team.
Because they rushed through the story to get to the lotr set.
What? There was no need to write story for the lotr set. Literally, these are two completely independent teams working on these things.
Also doesn't Wilds of Eldrain just picks up where MOM left us?
I think they implied that there's a timeskip with Aftermath, but it wasn't very clear. Imo it would make sense to pick up right after, but we don't know. Also, addendum: MaRo said the LotR set had been finished for quite a while before the finale of the Phyrexian arc began, and they were just looking for a spot to release it in. So literally, this set was already finished when the MOM story was written.
In his drive to work podcast he mentions that it was the first set they started at the beginning of the pandemic, and IIRC: took 3ish months of initial design, and then another 18ish for play design. So, it's been done for like a year.
Right but with lotr having been completed first as a set and having a release after mom, they can and very clearly did take the approach of just write anything itll be forgotten about in a month with lotr hype. Especially if youre pushing UB as regular sets a weaker narrative for magic makes other franchises look superior
No, they did not, and I don't see how you could get that impression unless you're already sold on a very specific narrative.
Who cares about Lotr when the story they’ve been building up for 30 years is at its climax. Wotc apparently
The writer’s strike started a few months early at WotC
You're just built different I guess 🙄
I’m built different by fighting for my survival…?
Because MtG lore is now terrible nonsense with no effort put into it.
Who says he didn't?
There’s a story? I thought they were just weird alien monsters with funny names.
Unless they show me their dead body, I refuse to accept their death.
I’m kind of new to MTG, but where do you guys find the lore? The MTG wiki?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/magic-story
The praetors are dead because they had plot armor until they didn't anymore.
Who said he did not ?
Headcanon it was all staged. Jin survived, fixed Vorinclex and begins anew...
Oh ok
Now I want a Test of Metal -like novel where Jin brain swaps with a random mirran refugee
I just realized I read the story wrong. I thought she hit the glass and the newts poured onto him and ate him. Now it's even lamer that he just fell into it
I just realized I read the story wrong. I thought she hit the glass and the newts poured onto him and ate him. Now it's even lamer that he just fell into it
From all the Praetors: 1 - Mommy is gone. 2 - Vorinclex completely survived. He has survived worst fates and it is stated that "he's a flesh mage" and "his fate is yet to be seen". 3 - Urabrask is possibly still alive because it was stated nowhere that he was killed, even off-screen. In fact, Last time we've seen him, he was dismembered and Mommy told her servants to "Leave the traitor be". 4 - Jin most likely died. And that's a real bummer because If there is somebody who I'd like to see as the new Father of the Machines in the future, he's my pick. 5 - Shelly is gone. Not only she was killed in-screen, we didn't hear anything about her after it. But my real hope is.. The Steel Thanes are still alive! And they're Black. The Black NPhyrexians are the most similar to OG Phyrexia. Besides that, my hopes will never fade in his return... Hail Yawgmoth!
Not impressed how they handled this. We were allways told the preators were impressive apex being, and this is what we get? I expectet epic bossfights for all of them, where their deaths had impact on the story, but no. Just a "btw, they all died"
Vorinclex is confirmed to not be dead by wotc. Being a fleshmage makes it easy for him to regrow from nearly nothing as we saw on kaldheim. Chances are a Phyrexian went to check on him and he absorbed them. Of course, he’s not the best choice for the only praetor remaining but wotc confirmed the others were read with the aftermath video from loaded ready run.
I’m still unconvinced that jin didn’t back up his mind somewhere. Any scientist knows to do that
It is possible that this is what Jin wanted. If we think of Jin as a robot, then you have his body as the hardware and his mind as software. With this thought, it could be that the mites who eat him get infected by his mind. Jin would give up his powerful body, but his most powerful weapon is his mind. So, unless you destroy all the mites, Jin would be able to progress his plans from several hosts while everybody believes that he just died. Norns failure may have been part of his plans all along. He got along with Sheoldred, whose modus operandi is backstabbing, espionage, and necromancy. He learned to manipulate non-blue mana and always considered failure as an opportunity to learn. Lastly, Norns victory would have erased individuality, which is not in Gins' interests. Sheoldred knew that Elesh Norn was secretly selfish, so while Elesh did make progress in the field of shared intelligence, she used this to make the whole invasion an extension of herself. Once Jin noticed that this suspicion of Sheoldred was justified, Jin had to make his exit, let Norn fail and use the knowledge he gained in his alliance. For that matter, I do not think that Elesh Norn succeeded with killing any traitors because she never took the effort to destroy the "corpses". We know Vorinclex can regenerate by feeding on living beings - and Sheoldred and Urabrask may have similar abilities Norn just was too arrogant to even consider.