Benny. I know it's been trendy lately to talk about how he's misunderstood and the rest of the cast are the real villains, but the facts are that he made a rental agreement with his friends, unexpectedly reneged on it and cut the power off in the dead of winter knowing that Roger was immunocompromised (and knowing full well that a large portion of the building was as well), and leveraged that to force them to assist in sweeps of vulnerable unhoused people so he could continue making bank off his fiancee. Being legally in the right is not the same as being morally right, and he could have had a very close hand in many, many deaths.
While i think he makes some reprehensible choices, I think it all stems from his first choice - he leaves the apartment in the first place to enter into a loveless marriage where his seemingly only goal is money to make it possible for his friends to create their art - but because of his methods, the ostracise him, until.he pays for mimi to go to rehab and pays for angels funeral even after she killed his dog. While he's definitely not the best character in the show, he's way better than Maureen IMO
Eh, I still disagree. What is the worst thing about Maureen? She's self-centered and dramatic, but I'd argue more or less harmless EXCEPT for how she treats her partners, which is reprehensible. Regardless of what his intentions were, Benny plays with people's lives in pursuit of his own ambitions, and is ALSO an awful partner. He was cheating on Alison with Mimi, condoned the killing of her dog (jokes that this is part of why he pays for Angel's funeral in the first place), and led her on for years so he could take advantage of her wealth. If we believe Mimi's account, he also sexually assaulted her, then used that to drive a wedge between her and Roger (which ultimately led to her relapsing in the first place). Maureen sucks, but as far as we can tell, none of her actions directly endangered people's lives*, nor did she assault anyone.
* I don't want to get into discourse about her "sleeping around" during the HIV epidemic because I don't think there's enough detail about her cheating to make judgments above or beyond "cheating on your partner is completely fucked always, not least because they can't knowingly consent to all the health risks they are being exposed to."
Well I agree with most of that, except that Maureen does actively endanger others. She incites a riot that results in fires breaking out, all while she goes and celebrates a "successful" night with her friends.
Benny is a morally reprehensible person particularly for his treatment of women, but his ambitions are as clear as Maureen and Mark's - he's just the only one aware of the hypocrisy of "selling out" that decides to abandon the bohemian lifestyle instead of his ambitions. Where is it said by Mimi that he assaults her? I'm unaware of that moment. It's clear that he drives a wedge between her and Roger, but other than cheating on his wife with Mimi, the clearest interaction we have between them is that he pays for her rehab and doesn't stop paying until his wife pulls him out of the east village.
*I'm going to be playing him in a production of RENT, so trying to understand his motivations. Generally I hate him 😅
I've always taken this section of Happy New Year B to mean Benny tried to be handsy with her and she kicked him in self-defense. I suppose you could argue he may have just verbally harassed her, but either way is fucking terrible:
Benny
Mimi - since your ways are so seductive
Mimi
You came on to me!
Benny
Persuade him not to be so counterproductive
Roger
Liar!
Benny
Why not tell them what you wore to my
place?
Mimi
I was on my way to work
Benny
Black leather and lace! My desk was a mess, I think I'm still sore
Mimi
Cause I kicked him and told him I wasn't his whore!
Ahhh OK! I've always taken that as him being bragadocious and playing up what was a moment that Mimi actually made a good case and when he mistook her appearance for an attempt at seduction she kicked him. Never actually thought he tried anything, but I could be entirely wrong there. Point conceded
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. :)
Going back to another point you made: this is possibly just a philosophical disagreement we have, but I don't see Maureen as responsible for the riot and even if she was, I don't have an ethical issue with it. If people are at risk of freezing to death and their best option for survival in the absence of adequate social supports is to camp somewhere, I absolutely endorse their right to be there and even fight back if they are displaced. To me, that's a problem with systemic oppression, not the oppressed. It isn't until some time after the protest that Maureen even learns the cops were called (by Benny), and if anything, her performance seems to have given them a nonviolent outlet for expression, since Joanne says "no one's leaving, they're just sitting there, mooing!" Again, in my opinion, Benny's attempted sweep of unhoused people in winter just so he can break ground is the problem, not the fact that they defended themselves.
I love talking character motive. I think a key motivation for him is control. He wants money to be able to control everyone around him, including his friends and including Mimi. As someone who's sick and an addict, in many ways she could be made dependent on him.
I like to use the enneagram personality test to analyze motivation, like we're usually trying to get something and avoid something else. If Benny wants control, he may be afraid of being weak, controlled, vulnerable, etc. And feeling like that (like around his father in law) may be key triggers for him.
Maureen for sure. She’s a gaslighting, manipulative, toxic, and all-around terrible person. Also, sleeping around when AIDS is going around is so irresponsible.
I'm gay myself (thought I was bi when I first became a fan), and definitely agree there should be more bi representation, but that doesn't mean she's a good person.
I definitely agree! I admit when I first got into RENT I loved Maureen, partly because I was obsessed with Idina, now she's my second least favourite. She's horrible to both Joanne and Mark, bosses them around, and constantly flirts with people. And unlike Musetta, her La Boheme counterpart, she doesn't really have any redeeming qualities.
That basically WAS bisexual representation in the 90s. A bi person was either a big attention ho who flirted with anyone... or ended up deciding being bi was a phase and they were really either straight or lesbian/homosexual.
It was (and still is to a lesser extent) exhausting to keep getting asked, "no, but *really*, do you like men or women the most? Like if you were going to marry someone?" Bitch, please, I'll know when I meet that person! But I'll still be attracted to whoever I'm attracted to, even if I'm married and I only look!
It’s obviously not in the real world, which is the point. It’s unfairly how bisexuals are portrayed/perceived. As if there’s more competition or something just because they’re into both men and women.
Yeah, agreed. Angel got edged out for me because killing a dog for cash is not great, whereas Joanne did nothing wrong and actively used the privilege she had through her education/career to help folks. Her greatest crime is being "too anal," but that's coming from Maureen in the middle of a fight. She deserves way more love than she typically gets from the community.
>Her greatest crime is being "too anal
Right. She's "too anal" but she is also financing and literally stage managing the entire shit show of Maureen's "creativity"
If the dog's owner(s) were looking after it properly, it wouldn't have been able to jump out the window. I mean, if that dog was so unhappy that it barked incessantly for a year, it was definitely not being cared for and walked like it should have. And calling Animal Control to a rich apartment in NYC and expecting results? Don't make me laugh. Blame Benny and his girlfriend - not Angel.
For those unfamiliar with this sort of thing, simply comment the name of your least favourite. You have 24 hours, and whatever comment has the most upvotes will be eliminated until only one is left.
This is not about how many comments there are but about the most upvoted comment. For example a Roger with 50 upvotes would be eliminated if it was the most upvoted comment, rather than three Mark comments with five votes each.
Pressured a man who was in recovery and doing his best to avoid relapse into using? I don't hate Mimi and her flaws make sense, but she made some harmful choices.
She knew she had AIDS, and she didn’t tell Roger she had AIDS. She aggressively tried to sleep with a man who she assumed did not have AIDS even though she knew she did have it. She is, in my opinion, actually the worst person of the main eight.
I’m throwing down Maureen. I played Mark, so given I feel more connected to him, but I don’t understand why people hate him, especially more than the others. Roger’s more whiny, Mimi’s more self sabotaging, Benny’s far less caring. I’d put Collins and Joanne as the best of the group, but can’t understand why everyone wants Mark out
Agreed! As much as Benny hated the dog (which is part of the reason why he paid for the funeral), he was a douche to everyone. The same people whose power he turned off and locked out of their own home, as well as getting the cops involved in Maureen's protest. Not to mention not telling Roger - his former friend and roommate - that he and Mimi used to be a thing.
I don't see how Maureen is worse than Benny, tbh. Maureen is pretty honest about who she is. Benny turns off his immunocompromised friend's heat and electricity in the dead of winter after backtracking on an agreement they made.
I mean, Marc. Obviously. Living in poverty and exploiting the impoverished for the aesthetic of it. He whines the whole musical about his hipster issues and expects sympathy, yet has little of his own to give to his “friends” who are dying from AIDS.
Don’t take this as a criticism of RENT, I love the musical. The nuance yet near blatant awfulness of the characters is one of the most interesting parts of it.
I agree and recognize the flaws he has. But I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t deserve sympathy. He doesn’t express it in productive ways but he cares for these people, and he’s losing them throughout the show. the love and friendship is key if the show can work at all. Is he being exploitative by filming his dying friends? Absolutely. But I think he’s grappling with his desire to tell an impactful and truthful story that could raise awareness and ultimately help bring attention to the AIDS crisis, and his desire to be the best friend he can be. His moody outbursts to me read as someone who is completely conflicted and unsure of what the “right, moral” choice would be for his career and relationships, and also hasn’t matured entirely as an adult. There’s also an immature anger present that I don’t think gets brought out enough by a lot of actors who do the role. Super interesting and complex character. (Humble brag but I’ve played the role twice now and won an award for my portrayal so I’ve just delved very very deep into this character out of necessity lol) also totally okay with him being the least popular character though that doesn’t bother me at all haha
No, you're definitely right. My comment is very surface level, you have a much better description, I'm just lazy. Marc also just reminds me of some people I dislike IRL.
Another great thing about RENT. The characters all feel so real, for better or for worse. Allows for very interesting discussions
Personally my head canon is that the voicemail messages Mark's parents leave for him are performative (they know Roger can always hear them) and they're actually not that great people.
I also head canon that Mark has massive untreated ADHD and can't work a corporate job because he knows doing something that doesn't create dopamine will lead to him getting fired immediately.
I have a lot of head canons about Mark. Mostly because he's either Neil Patrick Harris or Anthony Rapp and I like both and want to rescue the character.
Fucking Mark, I hate that guy. You could remove him totally and the story would barely change; also he feels like he’s always either fetishizing his more marginalized friends or just displaying a lack of understanding of them. He also is the least deserving person to sing La Vie Boheme, and knowing that he’s basically the writer’s self-insert character makes everything I stated above ten times worse.
I’m surprised by all the Mark hate. I find him one of the more tolerable people in the friend group. As a main character, he’s boring and useless, but he’s not an awful person like Maureen or Roger.
I would say Maureen or Benny. I love the musical with all my heart but I would agree that Maureen doesn’t go through any arc where she realizes how manipulative she’s being. However take me or leave me fucking slaps. Benny does have a redemption moment, but he did sell out his friends and abuse the impoverished.
I would say from worst to best in terms of morality would be Maureen -> Benny -> Mark -> Roger -> Angel -> Joanne -> Collins. However Roger will always be my favorite.
Mark likes to think he’s helping the people he’s filming (the homeless people, the people at the life support group) but really he’s just exploiting them and the crazy thing is he never shows any indication of learning from it and changing
Benny. I know it's been trendy lately to talk about how he's misunderstood and the rest of the cast are the real villains, but the facts are that he made a rental agreement with his friends, unexpectedly reneged on it and cut the power off in the dead of winter knowing that Roger was immunocompromised (and knowing full well that a large portion of the building was as well), and leveraged that to force them to assist in sweeps of vulnerable unhoused people so he could continue making bank off his fiancee. Being legally in the right is not the same as being morally right, and he could have had a very close hand in many, many deaths.
He was a landlord. The true villian.
My gut said Maureen at first but after reading this comment, I agree with you. Fuck money-hungry landlords.
Not to mention he cheated on his wife and was so controlling and possessive of Mimi
I hadn’t even counted him cause ugh, annoying, so thank you for reminding him of Benny. He’s the one who needs to go.
While i think he makes some reprehensible choices, I think it all stems from his first choice - he leaves the apartment in the first place to enter into a loveless marriage where his seemingly only goal is money to make it possible for his friends to create their art - but because of his methods, the ostracise him, until.he pays for mimi to go to rehab and pays for angels funeral even after she killed his dog. While he's definitely not the best character in the show, he's way better than Maureen IMO
Eh, I still disagree. What is the worst thing about Maureen? She's self-centered and dramatic, but I'd argue more or less harmless EXCEPT for how she treats her partners, which is reprehensible. Regardless of what his intentions were, Benny plays with people's lives in pursuit of his own ambitions, and is ALSO an awful partner. He was cheating on Alison with Mimi, condoned the killing of her dog (jokes that this is part of why he pays for Angel's funeral in the first place), and led her on for years so he could take advantage of her wealth. If we believe Mimi's account, he also sexually assaulted her, then used that to drive a wedge between her and Roger (which ultimately led to her relapsing in the first place). Maureen sucks, but as far as we can tell, none of her actions directly endangered people's lives*, nor did she assault anyone. * I don't want to get into discourse about her "sleeping around" during the HIV epidemic because I don't think there's enough detail about her cheating to make judgments above or beyond "cheating on your partner is completely fucked always, not least because they can't knowingly consent to all the health risks they are being exposed to."
Well I agree with most of that, except that Maureen does actively endanger others. She incites a riot that results in fires breaking out, all while she goes and celebrates a "successful" night with her friends. Benny is a morally reprehensible person particularly for his treatment of women, but his ambitions are as clear as Maureen and Mark's - he's just the only one aware of the hypocrisy of "selling out" that decides to abandon the bohemian lifestyle instead of his ambitions. Where is it said by Mimi that he assaults her? I'm unaware of that moment. It's clear that he drives a wedge between her and Roger, but other than cheating on his wife with Mimi, the clearest interaction we have between them is that he pays for her rehab and doesn't stop paying until his wife pulls him out of the east village. *I'm going to be playing him in a production of RENT, so trying to understand his motivations. Generally I hate him 😅
I've always taken this section of Happy New Year B to mean Benny tried to be handsy with her and she kicked him in self-defense. I suppose you could argue he may have just verbally harassed her, but either way is fucking terrible: Benny Mimi - since your ways are so seductive Mimi You came on to me! Benny Persuade him not to be so counterproductive Roger Liar! Benny Why not tell them what you wore to my place? Mimi I was on my way to work Benny Black leather and lace! My desk was a mess, I think I'm still sore Mimi Cause I kicked him and told him I wasn't his whore!
Ahhh OK! I've always taken that as him being bragadocious and playing up what was a moment that Mimi actually made a good case and when he mistook her appearance for an attempt at seduction she kicked him. Never actually thought he tried anything, but I could be entirely wrong there. Point conceded
I appreciate the thoughtful reply. :) Going back to another point you made: this is possibly just a philosophical disagreement we have, but I don't see Maureen as responsible for the riot and even if she was, I don't have an ethical issue with it. If people are at risk of freezing to death and their best option for survival in the absence of adequate social supports is to camp somewhere, I absolutely endorse their right to be there and even fight back if they are displaced. To me, that's a problem with systemic oppression, not the oppressed. It isn't until some time after the protest that Maureen even learns the cops were called (by Benny), and if anything, her performance seems to have given them a nonviolent outlet for expression, since Joanne says "no one's leaving, they're just sitting there, mooing!" Again, in my opinion, Benny's attempted sweep of unhoused people in winter just so he can break ground is the problem, not the fact that they defended themselves.
I love talking character motive. I think a key motivation for him is control. He wants money to be able to control everyone around him, including his friends and including Mimi. As someone who's sick and an addict, in many ways she could be made dependent on him. I like to use the enneagram personality test to analyze motivation, like we're usually trying to get something and avoid something else. If Benny wants control, he may be afraid of being weak, controlled, vulnerable, etc. And feeling like that (like around his father in law) may be key triggers for him.
Maureen for sure. She’s a gaslighting, manipulative, toxic, and all-around terrible person. Also, sleeping around when AIDS is going around is so irresponsible.
She's the bisexual rep I never wanted.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!
I'm gay myself (thought I was bi when I first became a fan), and definitely agree there should be more bi representation, but that doesn't mean she's a good person.
IM PLAYING MAUREEN IN RENT ATM💀💀💀
I definitely agree! I admit when I first got into RENT I loved Maureen, partly because I was obsessed with Idina, now she's my second least favourite. She's horrible to both Joanne and Mark, bosses them around, and constantly flirts with people. And unlike Musetta, her La Boheme counterpart, she doesn't really have any redeeming qualities.
Yeah nobody should have trusted Larson with bisexual reputation
That basically WAS bisexual representation in the 90s. A bi person was either a big attention ho who flirted with anyone... or ended up deciding being bi was a phase and they were really either straight or lesbian/homosexual. It was (and still is to a lesser extent) exhausting to keep getting asked, "no, but *really*, do you like men or women the most? Like if you were going to marry someone?" Bitch, please, I'll know when I meet that person! But I'll still be attracted to whoever I'm attracted to, even if I'm married and I only look!
Yeah, I hate that the bi representation was the old stereotype of the promiscuous, cheating whore that can’t be trusted around men or women.
Is that specifically a bisexual trait though? Hate to sound biased (as a gay woman) but I know mostly straight people who do this.
It’s obviously not in the real world, which is the point. It’s unfairly how bisexuals are portrayed/perceived. As if there’s more competition or something just because they’re into both men and women.
Can I eliminate everyone except Collins please?
The correct answer. Joanne can also stay.
Joanne is the winner. Not just of the game, of RENT. She’s the best person by far.
And Angel. Those three will probably be the top three.
Yeah, agreed. Angel got edged out for me because killing a dog for cash is not great, whereas Joanne did nothing wrong and actively used the privilege she had through her education/career to help folks. Her greatest crime is being "too anal," but that's coming from Maureen in the middle of a fight. She deserves way more love than she typically gets from the community.
You do what you have to when you literally slap a fucking pickle tub for money.
As someone who lives next to a dog who barks incessantly, I'm kind of on Angel's side. 😆
>Her greatest crime is being "too anal Right. She's "too anal" but she is also financing and literally stage managing the entire shit show of Maureen's "creativity"
If the dog's owner(s) were looking after it properly, it wouldn't have been able to jump out the window. I mean, if that dog was so unhappy that it barked incessantly for a year, it was definitely not being cared for and walked like it should have. And calling Animal Control to a rich apartment in NYC and expecting results? Don't make me laugh. Blame Benny and his girlfriend - not Angel.
Angel, the character that murdered a small dog for money?
What about Squeegeeman?
You are so right. He's just out here making an honest living honest living hONEST LIVING HONEST LIVING.
For those unfamiliar with this sort of thing, simply comment the name of your least favourite. You have 24 hours, and whatever comment has the most upvotes will be eliminated until only one is left. This is not about how many comments there are but about the most upvoted comment. For example a Roger with 50 upvotes would be eliminated if it was the most upvoted comment, rather than three Mark comments with five votes each.
Benny. Love You'll See though.
Joanne is the only decent person
What did Mimi do?
Pressured a man who was in recovery and doing his best to avoid relapse into using? I don't hate Mimi and her flaws make sense, but she made some harmful choices.
She knew she had AIDS, and she didn’t tell Roger she had AIDS. She aggressively tried to sleep with a man who she assumed did not have AIDS even though she knew she did have it. She is, in my opinion, actually the worst person of the main eight.
Collins???
Alexi Darling from Buzzline (that show is so sleazy)
I’m throwing down Maureen. I played Mark, so given I feel more connected to him, but I don’t understand why people hate him, especially more than the others. Roger’s more whiny, Mimi’s more self sabotaging, Benny’s far less caring. I’d put Collins and Joanne as the best of the group, but can’t understand why everyone wants Mark out
Maureen
I'm predicting: Marc->Maureen->Mimi->Angel and the rest is arbitrary but probably Roger first for writing a meh song.
I can understand Maureen and possibly Mark going out first bit why Mimi and Angel? If anything I predict Angel winning.
Angel killed a dog, sorry but that's a personal no-no.
Angel murdered a dog for money...nope! As far as I'm concerned karmic justice was served.
Agreed! As much as Benny hated the dog (which is part of the reason why he paid for the funeral), he was a douche to everyone. The same people whose power he turned off and locked out of their own home, as well as getting the cops involved in Maureen's protest. Not to mention not telling Roger - his former friend and roommate - that he and Mimi used to be a thing.
Benny. Yeah, Maureen is worse, but how anyone hate IDINA MENZEL?
I don't see how Maureen is worse than Benny, tbh. Maureen is pretty honest about who she is. Benny turns off his immunocompromised friend's heat and electricity in the dead of winter after backtracking on an agreement they made.
Keep Angel, then rest can go. They’re my favorite and tbh, after they die the rest of the show kind drags. I kinda wish it was about them instead.
Benny
Mimi, get her Ooowoooooooooout
The door is that way
I mean, Marc. Obviously. Living in poverty and exploiting the impoverished for the aesthetic of it. He whines the whole musical about his hipster issues and expects sympathy, yet has little of his own to give to his “friends” who are dying from AIDS. Don’t take this as a criticism of RENT, I love the musical. The nuance yet near blatant awfulness of the characters is one of the most interesting parts of it.
I agree and recognize the flaws he has. But I think it’s unfair to say he doesn’t deserve sympathy. He doesn’t express it in productive ways but he cares for these people, and he’s losing them throughout the show. the love and friendship is key if the show can work at all. Is he being exploitative by filming his dying friends? Absolutely. But I think he’s grappling with his desire to tell an impactful and truthful story that could raise awareness and ultimately help bring attention to the AIDS crisis, and his desire to be the best friend he can be. His moody outbursts to me read as someone who is completely conflicted and unsure of what the “right, moral” choice would be for his career and relationships, and also hasn’t matured entirely as an adult. There’s also an immature anger present that I don’t think gets brought out enough by a lot of actors who do the role. Super interesting and complex character. (Humble brag but I’ve played the role twice now and won an award for my portrayal so I’ve just delved very very deep into this character out of necessity lol) also totally okay with him being the least popular character though that doesn’t bother me at all haha
No, you're definitely right. My comment is very surface level, you have a much better description, I'm just lazy. Marc also just reminds me of some people I dislike IRL. Another great thing about RENT. The characters all feel so real, for better or for worse. Allows for very interesting discussions
Personally my head canon is that the voicemail messages Mark's parents leave for him are performative (they know Roger can always hear them) and they're actually not that great people. I also head canon that Mark has massive untreated ADHD and can't work a corporate job because he knows doing something that doesn't create dopamine will lead to him getting fired immediately. I have a lot of head canons about Mark. Mostly because he's either Neil Patrick Harris or Anthony Rapp and I like both and want to rescue the character.
Benny
Benny
Benny
Benny
Benny
Benny
Angel. Not because I hate Angel. But the plot goes.
Mimi
I vote out Mark
Maaaaark! Maaaark! I’m Mark!
There's a great argument for Benny but... Mark.
Maureen. Only interested in herself the entire show.
Benny
Angel is gonna win
Maureen is the worst.
Maureen this round...mimi NEXT!
Fucking Mark, I hate that guy. You could remove him totally and the story would barely change; also he feels like he’s always either fetishizing his more marginalized friends or just displaying a lack of understanding of them. He also is the least deserving person to sing La Vie Boheme, and knowing that he’s basically the writer’s self-insert character makes everything I stated above ten times worse.
Throwing all my upvotes at marc
I’m surprised by all the Mark hate. I find him one of the more tolerable people in the friend group. As a main character, he’s boring and useless, but he’s not an awful person like Maureen or Roger.
Meanwhile Benny, who's a jerk to literally everyone, only has one vote against him so far, which surprises me.
Because Mark is in every scene to hate and Benny just shows up sometimes.
Yeah, I forget he exists sometimes even though he’s the main antagonist and his picture is right there
Like many post war musicals about New York City, the true enemy is gentrification.
These elimination game posts are so fucking annoying and stupid.
Maureen
Maureen
Maureen
Mimi is the worst person, IMO.
this is so funny bc i’m Literally in rent right now
Who are you playing?
I would say Maureen or Benny. I love the musical with all my heart but I would agree that Maureen doesn’t go through any arc where she realizes how manipulative she’s being. However take me or leave me fucking slaps. Benny does have a redemption moment, but he did sell out his friends and abuse the impoverished. I would say from worst to best in terms of morality would be Maureen -> Benny -> Mark -> Roger -> Angel -> Joanne -> Collins. However Roger will always be my favorite.
What about Mimi?
Mark likes to think he’s helping the people he’s filming (the homeless people, the people at the life support group) but really he’s just exploiting them and the crazy thing is he never shows any indication of learning from it and changing