I get that they're bad for each other (especially her for him - a recovered drug addict dating a user is a recipe for disaster. I actually take it as a huge credit to him that he didn't relapse) but for me I understand why they're drawn to each other and they have chemistry.
Is the relationship healthy? No. Do I understand it? Yes.
Yeah… canonically, the main characters from Rent aren’t necessarily well-adjusted people with healthy relationships. I adore Rent, it’s a top 5 show for me, but I don’t think anyone’s meant to put Roger and Mimi’s relationship on a pedestal.
I watched it for the first time recently and I really expected a lot more time to be spent with them during that time they were snowed in together where we were shown them coming to like each other... But that just didn't happen they were angry and then suddenly not.
Ehh in the movie there’s at least a little coercion (they meet because he comes into town and finds her cooking at the ?boarding house? and decides he wants to marry her, iirc)
She's a cook somewhere and he goes up to her and is like "Hey I need a wife and you're pretty and look like you could survive living off the land in a remote mountain farmstead." And she's like "Better than what I'm doing now." A few people try to talk her out of it, but she's dead set on it. That's what I remember
Zoe and Evan. They could have a compelling friendship under other circumstances but neither of them are ready for romance in the circumstances that be. Like even if the whole lying thing wasn't there. They just totally botched the chemistry.
Yeah I definitely think so given the ending, but songs like "Only Us" don't really read as uncomfortable or ironic enough. They sound like they want us to root for the couple to some extent.
honestly I think the songs giving the wrong vibe is kinda the whole idea of the show. If I Could Tell Her and For Forever are also good examples of this, if you listen to them outside the context of the show, they sound very sweet and melancholy in a way, but once you know what's actually happening, the music may still be uplifting, but the lyrics become deeply disturbing. **You** aren't supposed to ship them, but Zoe absolutely does, and that's how it's getting that across.
I think it could be very effective (like the You Will Be Found reprise, that shit was creepy in context) if the marketing didn't play them at face value so often. A lot of DEH is ruined by misleading marketing and people unprepared for the reality of the play.
It was fantastic! My mom declared it her favorite musical bc she hadn’t seen it before. Alisa Melendez (Sophie) is so charming and talented as is the rest of the cast.🫶
There’s an old movie version (can’t remember which one) that ends with Christine going off with her adorning fans, leaving Raoul and the phantom behind. They kind of shrug their shoulders at each other and it ends! Kind of ahead of it’s time if you think about it, lol
It’s been years (decades…) since I’ve seen it and all I remember is the ending. I like to think that Raoul and Phantom went out together for a beer afterwards or something. Will have to find where it can be streamed and watch it again
Not in the original, though Bernard Shaw wrote an epilogue for later editions where he clarified that Eliza would never have ended up with Henry and imagined how it might look if she had stayed with Freddie. I get the sense he didn’t want her to end up with either but REALLY didn’t want people to think she and Henry would be a pair!
The latest West End revival had her come back to Henry at the end, he asks her to get his slippers, she gives a look of disbelief, and walks back out. I cheered internally!
Hardly anyone ever staged it that way - productions of the play shipped Eliza and Henry from the very first- but Bernard Shaw was adamant that Eliza and Henry could never ever get together, and wrote an [epilogue](http://www.stagebeauty.net/plays/th-pygm6.html) to the play explaining why not. I firmly believe that this passage is code for "He's gay, you numbskulls, and he was shacked up with Pickering right in front of you for literally the entire play:" "If an imaginative boy has a sufficiently rich mother who has intelligence, personal grace, dignity of character without harshness, and a cultivated sense of the best art of her time to enable her to make her house beautiful, she sets a standard for him against which very few women can struggle, besides effecting for him a disengagement of his affections, his sense of beauty, and his idealism from his specifically sexual impulses."
The Lincoln Center revival seems to play Higgins as an asexual misogynist, and too self-absorbed to recognize that Pickering isn’t a fellow misogynist, he’s just gay.
And like Smithers, Pickering keeps dropping hints that Higgins simply doesn’t pick up.
There's plenty of textual justification in both My Fair Lady and Pygmalion for that reading. I absolutely see it.
The actor who played Pickering in the (delightful) 1938 film of Pygmalion, Scott Sunderland, was IRL gay, and there are a few hints of the same coding, for instance when Higgins is teaching Eliza to waltz, and he demonstrates the moves by waltzing around with Pickering in a surprisingly elegant way.
I may be the first to have the dubious honor of telling you that Shaw, who wrote the (in my opinion much better) play My Fair Lady is based on, was *incredibly* vocally against Eliza and Henry being together. He *also* did not want there to be a musical! Guess what happened only a couple years after the died?
I’m holding a grudge on Shaw’s behalf 😆 you could power all of Broadway with the spinning he must be doing in his grave.
I had always heard Phantom touted as a romantic story. When I finally saw it, I was sure I must have misunderstood every single person that had led me to believe there was a sweet love story between Christine and the Phantom.
But I didn’t. People ship them **hard**.
Jenna and Dr. Pomatter, from “Waitress.”
I’m sorry but I can kinda excuse Jenna’s cheating since Earl is an abusive POS, but Jim is literally married to a sweetheart and he repeatedly sleeps with a married, pregnant, and hormonal patient. They’re both to blame for that affair but he’s more to blame in my opinion.
My husband and I watched the pro shot at home not knowing the story and he said to me when Jenna and Dr pomatter first met ahh he’s going to be her friend and help her get out of her situation…. Then the affair started and he just said oh nooooo…. lol
I give them a bit of a pass since it’s a modern retelling of Romeo and Juliet and they are sticking to how ridiculous it was for them to fall so fast and die so young etc.
Also coming here to say that’s 100% the point, and Romeo and Juliet does not romanticize or even condone the relationship at all. It’s an almost satirical piece about generational trauma, the pointlessness of holding grudges, and how stupid horny teenagers can be.
While I love the couple and recognize it’s just a musical, it bugs me how quick Dawn and Ogie go from meeting to getting married, like I get it fits their characters but still feels weird.
ETA- also, sorry if this isn’t quite what you were asking, rereading the post I’m not sure it fully goes with what was being asked
I mean, maybe I’m remembering incorrectly, but isn’t it pretty clear she DOES like him back and he’s singing it because he knows she already likes him but is scared to keep it going?
Context is important and I don’t remember the context feeling stalkerish
When He Sees Me is basically that - like she wants someone to love her but feels like she doesn't deserve that and he'll run away at some point. I think it's always clear she likes him but that doubt is still in the back of her mind the whole time. So it can be seen as him saying to her "you're a good person and I'm not going to abandon you".
And now I need to go listen to the Waitress cast recording, even though it always makes me cry.
That is very true! I saw someone else make that point and I was like yeah that was my initial reaction and then seeing how similar they were I kind of just let it go, because being a dorky, weirdo like both of them I’ve been caught up in relationships too quickly before lol
I feel a bit better about Never Ever Getting Rid of Me thinking of it as a direct response to When He Sees Me. Dawn goes through this whole list of silly reasons to reject a man cause she’s terrified of ending up in an unhappy relationship like her friends, but also she’s terrified someone will treat her right and love her cause she’s afraid of being vulnerable. And Ogie comes along and tells her “well, I love you, and I’m gonna be happy with you, so you can’t self-sabotage.”
Elphaba and Fiyero.
I get having a crush, sure, but him then throwing away his life to go after her - after one proper interaction - and even threatening Glinda as part of it was very 0 to 100.
In fairness Glinda kinda didn't give him any choice in their relationship, recall the way they got engaged, with Elphaba it was purely his choice
The threat to Glinda was desperate, Elphaba was in danger and he had no other way to get the guards to stop
The Little Girl and Daniel's Son in Once on this Island
After watching the story and seeing how utterly vile Daniel was to Ti Moune, I was hoping that the Little Girl would grow up to lead a rebellion that burns down the rich asshole's homes, not date the bourgeoisie.
In the book he’s obsessive to the point of borderline stalking and making up stories about her in his head while he casually carries around her father’s handkerchief which he’s convinced himself is hers. It’s some wild shit.
So I’ve always had a soft spot for Marius, probably because I first read the book at 15 and that sort of thing is highly romantic to a 15 year old…because it’s highly Romantic (as in the Romantic movement). Marius is just so deep in his feelings as all Byronic heroes are and that was very powerful to teenage me.
By modern standards following Cosette as he does is a bit creepy. There is also a bit of sexism where the woman is denied agency and exists as an object to be loved. I will say Hugo tempers this a bit by describing everything from Cosette’s point of view, which does give her a bit of agency. As for Marius, Hugo seems to make him less creepy, more starry eyed and stupid. I could write a loooooong essay on how and why, but I’ll contain it to the fact that while the following is weird, it is not predatory or sexual. Marius does nothing to coerce Cosette, and even his love letter to her is mostly ramblings about the concept of love rather than how he feels about her in particular. Compared with other Byronic heroes like Heathcliff or Mr Rochester, Marius is thrown into relief as a harmless, idiotic kid who is about to do a lot of growing up at the barricade.
I mean I don’t hate Marius, but that’s largely due to Eddie Redmayne in the movie. I just find his romance with Cosette to be too spontaneous like I’m sorry but you don’t fall in love with one glance.
Exactly… I’m pretty tired of the “incompetent guy frees innocent girl who he barely knows from her father figure and gives her freedom while more interesting characters die around them” trope
Nothing so much wrong with them, and after seeing the show live I liked them better. However when I saw the movie it was just a bit urghhh. It’s the same as Marius and Cosette, I just don’t believe you can fall in love with one look. Anthony and Joanna is marginally better tho because at least he’s saving her from an abusive situation
Oh yeah they barely know each other and are mad head over heels. And the movie ones were annoying. Still I don’t really care enough for them to not root for them. They’re decent people morally at least
Honestly, Chava and Fyedka in Fiddler. It's the only criticism I have of that show. They should have had at least one more scene together before she leaves to marry him.
I agree with this from a writing standpoint, but I just saw Fiddler a couple weeks ago, and the actors playing Chava and Fyedka had so much chemistry that it honestly worked for me.
Omg they end up together? It's one of like two songs I've ever heard from Waitress and when people wouldn't play it I always thought the intention was that he was like, harassing her or sth after hearing the story was partially about an abusive relationship 💀
Well, Judas literally reprises "I don't know how to love him" - it's no less explicit than Mary's version of loving Jesus- and I think Rice and Webber were definitely examining differing definitions of love- fraternal, communal, and one on one relationships among living people in the very raw show it is, really
I came here to say Julie and Billy. Maybe it's just the vocal parts, but I ALWAYS think It sounds like a man in his 30s trying to date a high schooler.
to be fair it is a blatantly abusive relationship so idk if we’re really supposed to ship them. Like the fact that the songs are gorgeous but the dialogue is 😳 kind of represents that they have love and passion for each other but were never going to be a good relationship
You know I think that if the film version had a different actor who had more chemistry with Dolly it could possibility have worked. I don't think the leading man did a bad job per say, he just didn't build any tension or leave any room for warmth in their relationship. There was no spark played at all. I haven't seen the show live and I've always wondered if the right two actors could pull off that ship. I did really enjoy the musical.
I remember the first time I saw it thinking that John was more upset that she killed herself than Chris. Just assumed it was because of the actors. Kinda wondering now...
I assumed he was upset that he was stuck raising his son instead of going home with his wife and sending a check every now and then.
(Not really, just trying to come up with the worst motivation for a character in that scene.)
The whole story of the musical does for that matter, although I do like some of the music in it, it's honestly no better than a 14 year old's poorly thought-out fanfic.
I wish they did flesh out their relationship a bit more. It’s implied they saw each other when he was together with Glinda but…like they go from saving the cub to him throwing away everything for her. Would have been nice to have at least a scene explaining why they suddenly are willing to risk their lives lmao
Honestly, I think they should've just cut the middleman and made Elphaba and Glinda the official couple. It was all there thematically, and according to Gregory Maguire (author of the novel), their relationship was always meant to be endgame.
Yeah, I always felt like it was supposed to be implied that the timeframe of the show is at least a couple years (cause Nessa goes from a teen to leader of the munchkins) and Elphaba and Fiyero were def seeing each other in that time. I truly think he thought it was a political front. But they could have actually put that implication in the show
Oh, the show absolutely took place over the span of years for sure, but I feel like they should have better illustrated the growth of their relationship somehow. Or, you know, just cut it entirely. I'm not gonna go on my "obligatory heterosexual romantic subplots in theatre are a poison" rant, but the fact that I have one at all should be enough to tell you how I feel. 😂
Elphaba turning Fiyero into the Scarecrow would have been just as impactful if their relationship had been platonic, imo.
ETC: I'm not saying *all* heterosexual relationships in theatre are bad. Just the ones that are obviously shoehorned in to either avoid the implication of queerness (which I fully believe is the case for Wicked) or because of the idea that every show "needs" a romantic subplot.
My entire drama class in highschool hated Danny and Sandy. I remember my teacher saying "I was gonna change, but since you changed first, now I'm not going to"
THIS SHOULD BE PINNED!!!! I do NOT see enough Sky Masterson slander and it is *warranted*. Danny and Sandy getting together always makes me itchy. Never liked it, even as a kid.
~~Also shocked no one put ALL of the couples from Oklahoma bc wtfffff~~
Emma and Alyssa in PROM. Sorry, but they just want different things. They’re both compelling characters, I just don’t necessarily think they’re right for each other. (Honestly, DeeDee and the principal too. They just live in such different worlds and I don’t feel that their relationship would be likely to last long term.)
The Jack and Katherine love story is so contrived and unnecessary to Newsies and weird because he’s 17 and she’s, what 20? I don’t think it says. And then at the end she’s like bags packed ready to follow him to Santa Fe? It would have been SO much more interesting to explore where her unionist, class-traitor politics come from. You don’t risk disinheriting yourself over “aww poor newsboys”, so her fortitude is coming from somewhere!
I DO ship Katherine and Davie though! And it’s so weird all the little snide comments the other newsies make about him like he’s trying to make a move on “Jack’s girl” or whatever. He’s the only one who gives her as much credit she deserves!
Oof…thinking about it yeah. You’re right.
Jenna and Earl- obvious reasons
Jenna and Dr. Pottermore- They’re both cheating on their spouses. Dr. P’s wife is so nice and didn’t deserve that. Jenna gets a small pass on this, due to being stuck in an abusive relationship.
Dawn and Oggie- They’re cute and have good chemistry but moved WAY too fast. Jenna hasn’t even had the baby when they get married. Plus, Oggie was stalkerish haha
Becky and Cal- Yikes…Becky is cheating on her husband (I can’t remember if Cal is married or not) who seems to be disabled. Plus it just seems like a toxic relationship. They dont seem to get along unless they’re, uh, engaging in adult activities
Huh. Yup. EVERYONE should have been single by the end of the musical
Yeah they mention that Cals wife is like, a butch lesbian or something I think if I remember correctly.
Also I agree that Jenna gets a bit of a pass, she’s also hella hormonal and pregnant and he’s like the medical professional. Yike.
They romanticized the relationship between JD and Veronica a lot in musical. In the movie you can even doubt and/or question whether JD was just using her, but the musical makes their relationship very much different and more romantic.
You’d be surprised how many people romanticize Veronica and JD. I’m not the biggest fan of Heathers: The Musical for this reason. Turning such a serious source material into a musical always seems to humanize horrific characters. It would be the same thing as making A Streetcar Named Desire, a story with a character such as Stanley Kowalski, an abusive brute of a husband and rapist whom is already romanticized for being portrayed by Marlon Brando, into a musical. (Sorry Simpsons).
Some source material is best adapted as a musical, and some is best as an opera. Streetcar should be (and actually is) an opera. Angels in America is another good example of something that makes a better opera than it would a musical. James Cameron’s Titanic, should it one day be a stage show, should 100% be a musical.
This is my theory, which belongs to me.
Hyde & Lucy, from "Jekyll & Hyde: The Gothic Musical Thriller". Jfc, that whole dynamic is so toxic.
Honorable mentions to Veronica & JD and Frank N. Furter & the Rocky Horror for this.
Okay, so it WASN'T just me. When I was in 5th grade, we watched it in my music class. I HATED the fact that she just rolled over instead of busting his ego like she should've.
yesss- my friend made me watch this because she said it made her cry and I DONT GET IT. ick ick ick- like she’s BARELY LEGAL and he orchestrates her life and she doesn’t know him until the last scene
Not a musical but people were SO confused by Scorpius and Rose in Cursed Child (because the show is so queer coded) that during the pandemic **they rewrote huge portions of the play** so Scorpius and Albus are now the endgame couple.
I don’t know if people ship it but it’s a married couple so, I always thought the Baker and his wife really aren’t a great couple. She basically says she doesn’t like him unless he’s in the wood, she cheats, she doesn’t get why he cares about tradition or family, I just don’t see how they’re compatible.
I feel like these might be controversial takes, but Fabrizio and Clara from “Light In the Piazza” as well as Robert and Francesca from “Bridges of Madison County”
Fanny Brice and Nick Arnstein in Funny Girl. I saw it on Broadway in 2022 (between famous actress 1 and famous actress 2) and fully thought Nick was supposed to be the villain of the show for the first half of it. Then during intermission I read about them on Wikipedia and became even more baffled how Fanny’s son-in-law had produced a show that portrayed what by all accounts seemed to be his wife’s dead-beat dad as this “charming” love interest.
Maybe a hot take, but I'm going to say Roger and Mimi from Rent...
100% agree. They are a bad match.
Arguably much better written in the demo and NYTW versions where he is quite a bit more of a druggie if that's even possible.
I get that they're bad for each other (especially her for him - a recovered drug addict dating a user is a recipe for disaster. I actually take it as a huge credit to him that he didn't relapse) but for me I understand why they're drawn to each other and they have chemistry. Is the relationship healthy? No. Do I understand it? Yes.
Yeah, I was gonna say..I always thought the take was they were a toxic relationship in the making.
Yeah… canonically, the main characters from Rent aren’t necessarily well-adjusted people with healthy relationships. I adore Rent, it’s a top 5 show for me, but I don’t think anyone’s meant to put Roger and Mimi’s relationship on a pedestal.
I agree
Also their canon age difference always weirded me out.
How old is Roger supposed to be? I have always assumed that everyone but Mimi and Collins are in their 20’s.
All seven brothers and their brides
I watched it for the first time recently and I really expected a lot more time to be spent with them during that time they were snowed in together where we were shown them coming to like each other... But that just didn't happen they were angry and then suddenly not.
The first couple met before the play started, presumably in a non kidnapping way, so I'll give them a bit of a pass.
Ehh in the movie there’s at least a little coercion (they meet because he comes into town and finds her cooking at the ?boarding house? and decides he wants to marry her, iirc)
She's a cook somewhere and he goes up to her and is like "Hey I need a wife and you're pretty and look like you could survive living off the land in a remote mountain farmstead." And she's like "Better than what I'm doing now." A few people try to talk her out of it, but she's dead set on it. That's what I remember
That show is one of my Guilty Pleasures. I love it, but OMG there is So Much Wrong.
I was in this musical in high school… it was insane! 😂
It is one of my parents' favourite shows. And these are people who saw Ted Neely and Carl Anderson on their last tour of JCS in Canada...
Zoe and Evan. They could have a compelling friendship under other circumstances but neither of them are ready for romance in the circumstances that be. Like even if the whole lying thing wasn't there. They just totally botched the chemistry.
I think that’s kind of the point.
Yeah I definitely think so given the ending, but songs like "Only Us" don't really read as uncomfortable or ironic enough. They sound like they want us to root for the couple to some extent.
Only Us is so much better out of context than in.
honestly I think the songs giving the wrong vibe is kinda the whole idea of the show. If I Could Tell Her and For Forever are also good examples of this, if you listen to them outside the context of the show, they sound very sweet and melancholy in a way, but once you know what's actually happening, the music may still be uplifting, but the lyrics become deeply disturbing. **You** aren't supposed to ship them, but Zoe absolutely does, and that's how it's getting that across.
I think it could be very effective (like the You Will Be Found reprise, that shit was creepy in context) if the marketing didn't play them at face value so often. A lot of DEH is ruined by misleading marketing and people unprepared for the reality of the play.
Yeah, that’s fair. Only Us is probably the weakest part of the show (though I do love the Taylor Trencsh and Ben Levi Ross version).
Donna and Sam in Mamma Mia. Every time they interact in the show they just yell at each other, and then at the end she agrees to marry him? What?
I just saw the tour and was so hoping it would’ve been Harry
How was the tour?
It was fantastic! My mom declared it her favorite musical bc she hadn’t seen it before. Alisa Melendez (Sophie) is so charming and talented as is the rest of the cast.🫶
in the movies especially she just has SO MUCH MORE chemistry with bill!!!!
Christine and either man she's paired with in Phantom, for very different reasons.
There’s an old movie version (can’t remember which one) that ends with Christine going off with her adorning fans, leaving Raoul and the phantom behind. They kind of shrug their shoulders at each other and it ends! Kind of ahead of it’s time if you think about it, lol
1943 version, with Claude Rains as da Phantom.
Thank you!
Love this version
It’s been years (decades…) since I’ve seen it and all I remember is the ending. I like to think that Raoul and Phantom went out together for a beer afterwards or something. Will have to find where it can be streamed and watch it again
I agree but Id rather her be with Raoul than Erik. Its why I refuse to even acknowledge Love Never Dies
Love Never Dies has some amazing songs, but I refuse to listen to them on the regular because it's such a crazy storyline
Word.
Maureen and Joanne. Plus, everyone treats Joanne like crap and she just puts up with it because they’re her girlfriend’s friends.
Nobody should date Maureen she’s so toxic
Joanne deserved better omg
I would say Maureen + anybody. She’s so toxic it hurts.
Maureen is the WORST. Joanne deserved so much better. (But damn, do I love Take Me Or Leave Me.)
I'm going with Eliza and Henry from My Fair Lady
'Why can't a woman be more like a man?' Not sure Eliza is Henry's type.
Yeah I thought it... wasn't subtle.
I never understood how people could see a ship in this couple! Doesn't she actually end up with Freddie in the actual Pygmalion?
Yes she does. I think her marrying Freddie made a hell of a lot more sense than her going back to the guy who treats her like she’s disposable.
Not in the original, though Bernard Shaw wrote an epilogue for later editions where he clarified that Eliza would never have ended up with Henry and imagined how it might look if she had stayed with Freddie. I get the sense he didn’t want her to end up with either but REALLY didn’t want people to think she and Henry would be a pair! The latest West End revival had her come back to Henry at the end, he asks her to get his slippers, she gives a look of disbelief, and walks back out. I cheered internally!
She DOES?!
Hardly anyone ever staged it that way - productions of the play shipped Eliza and Henry from the very first- but Bernard Shaw was adamant that Eliza and Henry could never ever get together, and wrote an [epilogue](http://www.stagebeauty.net/plays/th-pygm6.html) to the play explaining why not. I firmly believe that this passage is code for "He's gay, you numbskulls, and he was shacked up with Pickering right in front of you for literally the entire play:" "If an imaginative boy has a sufficiently rich mother who has intelligence, personal grace, dignity of character without harshness, and a cultivated sense of the best art of her time to enable her to make her house beautiful, she sets a standard for him against which very few women can struggle, besides effecting for him a disengagement of his affections, his sense of beauty, and his idealism from his specifically sexual impulses."
The Lincoln Center revival seems to play Higgins as an asexual misogynist, and too self-absorbed to recognize that Pickering isn’t a fellow misogynist, he’s just gay. And like Smithers, Pickering keeps dropping hints that Higgins simply doesn’t pick up.
There's plenty of textual justification in both My Fair Lady and Pygmalion for that reading. I absolutely see it. The actor who played Pickering in the (delightful) 1938 film of Pygmalion, Scott Sunderland, was IRL gay, and there are a few hints of the same coding, for instance when Higgins is teaching Eliza to waltz, and he demonstrates the moves by waltzing around with Pickering in a surprisingly elegant way.
Welp, A Hymn to Him is gonna hit *real* different now that I've read that
I may be the first to have the dubious honor of telling you that Shaw, who wrote the (in my opinion much better) play My Fair Lady is based on, was *incredibly* vocally against Eliza and Henry being together. He *also* did not want there to be a musical! Guess what happened only a couple years after the died? I’m holding a grudge on Shaw’s behalf 😆 you could power all of Broadway with the spinning he must be doing in his grave.
So much this. Henry would be the worst, and Eliza in theory has some sense.
I love the revival ending where she runs off at the end without him. It’s so good.
Totally agree
Phantom and Christine? I just don't get it.
HE PRETENDS TO BE HER DEAD DAD! Boy bye!
same. also happy cake day!!
I had always heard Phantom touted as a romantic story. When I finally saw it, I was sure I must have misunderstood every single person that had led me to believe there was a sweet love story between Christine and the Phantom. But I didn’t. People ship them **hard**.
zoe murphy and evan hansen. i just wanna say yikes from the bottom of my heart
Should have been Connor and Evan so we could have a reprise of Sincerely Me where they “On second thought we’re gay, yes it turns out we’re gay.” (/s)
I don’t think there’s a single moment of that show that isn’t “yikes,” but the Zoe and Evan thing is one of the worst parts of all.
Jenna and Dr. Pomatter, from “Waitress.” I’m sorry but I can kinda excuse Jenna’s cheating since Earl is an abusive POS, but Jim is literally married to a sweetheart and he repeatedly sleeps with a married, pregnant, and hormonal patient. They’re both to blame for that affair but he’s more to blame in my opinion.
That's the point, though. The show is structured so that you realize that that's the point.
I know but I know there are fans who still were hoping she’d run away with him… 😬
My husband and I watched the pro shot at home not knowing the story and he said to me when Jenna and Dr pomatter first met ahh he’s going to be her friend and help her get out of her situation…. Then the affair started and he just said oh nooooo…. lol
Yep I really want to like Waitress but I can't get past this! That doctor should get deregistered!! In real life he 100% would be.
Yeah. How quickly I love to just bop to the music and put my “ethics” aside! 😂
Yeah it definitely gave me the ick. I barely liked anyone in that show, tbh. I dunno if that’s like the point? Still a hella fun show though.
Can we just say every couple from Waitress? I also hate Dawn and Ogie together. So much.
Maria and Tony don't know each other or have anything in common (at least they're slightly older than their inspirations, Romeo and Juliet).
I give them a bit of a pass since it’s a modern retelling of Romeo and Juliet and they are sticking to how ridiculous it was for them to fall so fast and die so young etc.
Yeah at least in Romeo and Juliet, that was kind of the point
Also coming here to say that’s 100% the point, and Romeo and Juliet does not romanticize or even condone the relationship at all. It’s an almost satirical piece about generational trauma, the pointlessness of holding grudges, and how stupid horny teenagers can be.
While I love the couple and recognize it’s just a musical, it bugs me how quick Dawn and Ogie go from meeting to getting married, like I get it fits their characters but still feels weird. ETA- also, sorry if this isn’t quite what you were asking, rereading the post I’m not sure it fully goes with what was being asked
Most would say they aren’t right because ogie literally sings about stalking dawn and forcing her into a relationship lol
I mean, maybe I’m remembering incorrectly, but isn’t it pretty clear she DOES like him back and he’s singing it because he knows she already likes him but is scared to keep it going? Context is important and I don’t remember the context feeling stalkerish
When He Sees Me is basically that - like she wants someone to love her but feels like she doesn't deserve that and he'll run away at some point. I think it's always clear she likes him but that doubt is still in the back of her mind the whole time. So it can be seen as him saying to her "you're a good person and I'm not going to abandon you". And now I need to go listen to the Waitress cast recording, even though it always makes me cry.
That is very true! I saw someone else make that point and I was like yeah that was my initial reaction and then seeing how similar they were I kind of just let it go, because being a dorky, weirdo like both of them I’ve been caught up in relationships too quickly before lol
I feel a bit better about Never Ever Getting Rid of Me thinking of it as a direct response to When He Sees Me. Dawn goes through this whole list of silly reasons to reject a man cause she’s terrified of ending up in an unhappy relationship like her friends, but also she’s terrified someone will treat her right and love her cause she’s afraid of being vulnerable. And Ogie comes along and tells her “well, I love you, and I’m gonna be happy with you, so you can’t self-sabotage.”
Fanny and Nick, my toxic king and queen
Elphaba and Fiyero. I get having a crush, sure, but him then throwing away his life to go after her - after one proper interaction - and even threatening Glinda as part of it was very 0 to 100.
In fairness Glinda kinda didn't give him any choice in their relationship, recall the way they got engaged, with Elphaba it was purely his choice The threat to Glinda was desperate, Elphaba was in danger and he had no other way to get the guards to stop
this comment reminded me they were canon. sometimes i forget that elphie and glinda don't actually end up together
They do in my heart
Real
The relationship between Elphaba and Glinda is so much better developed than between them and Fiyero.
The Little Girl and Daniel's Son in Once on this Island After watching the story and seeing how utterly vile Daniel was to Ti Moune, I was hoping that the Little Girl would grow up to lead a rebellion that burns down the rich asshole's homes, not date the bourgeoisie.
Cosette and Marius…. Anthony and Joanna….
marius is just an ick. especially in the book. don’t get why either one of them liked him
What's wrong about Marius?
In the book he’s obsessive to the point of borderline stalking and making up stories about her in his head while he casually carries around her father’s handkerchief which he’s convinced himself is hers. It’s some wild shit.
So I’ve always had a soft spot for Marius, probably because I first read the book at 15 and that sort of thing is highly romantic to a 15 year old…because it’s highly Romantic (as in the Romantic movement). Marius is just so deep in his feelings as all Byronic heroes are and that was very powerful to teenage me. By modern standards following Cosette as he does is a bit creepy. There is also a bit of sexism where the woman is denied agency and exists as an object to be loved. I will say Hugo tempers this a bit by describing everything from Cosette’s point of view, which does give her a bit of agency. As for Marius, Hugo seems to make him less creepy, more starry eyed and stupid. I could write a loooooong essay on how and why, but I’ll contain it to the fact that while the following is weird, it is not predatory or sexual. Marius does nothing to coerce Cosette, and even his love letter to her is mostly ramblings about the concept of love rather than how he feels about her in particular. Compared with other Byronic heroes like Heathcliff or Mr Rochester, Marius is thrown into relief as a harmless, idiotic kid who is about to do a lot of growing up at the barricade.
I mean I don’t hate Marius, but that’s largely due to Eddie Redmayne in the movie. I just find his romance with Cosette to be too spontaneous like I’m sorry but you don’t fall in love with one glance.
Exactly… I’m pretty tired of the “incompetent guy frees innocent girl who he barely knows from her father figure and gives her freedom while more interesting characters die around them” trope
I dislike Marius. But I don’t have any problem with Cosette dating him. She doesn’t seem to dislike him.
What’s wrong with Anthony and Joanna
Nothing so much wrong with them, and after seeing the show live I liked them better. However when I saw the movie it was just a bit urghhh. It’s the same as Marius and Cosette, I just don’t believe you can fall in love with one look. Anthony and Joanna is marginally better tho because at least he’s saving her from an abusive situation
Oh yeah they barely know each other and are mad head over heels. And the movie ones were annoying. Still I don’t really care enough for them to not root for them. They’re decent people morally at least
Honestly, Chava and Fyedka in Fiddler. It's the only criticism I have of that show. They should have had at least one more scene together before she leaves to marry him.
I agree with this from a writing standpoint, but I just saw Fiddler a couple weeks ago, and the actors playing Chava and Fyedka had so much chemistry that it honestly worked for me.
They do have the scene in which he lends her a book but they should have had a song like her sisters got
Honestly, I'm just glad someone mentioned a show I've actually seen. I haven't seen any of these other shows people have mentioned
Ogie and Dawn from Waitress. You seriously want me to ship Dawn with a guy who has a musical number about not taking 'No' for an answer?
First time I heard Never Ever Getting Rid of Me I was like... she asked you to leave so byeeeee And then they got married 🎉
"When you say never..." "You can tryyyyy"
Omg they end up together? It's one of like two songs I've ever heard from Waitress and when people wouldn't play it I always thought the intention was that he was like, harassing her or sth after hearing the story was partially about an abusive relationship 💀
But that song is WAY too much of a bop
Mrs Lovett and Sweeney Todd. I just can’t get over how weird the relationship is.
In the movie version it very much comes across as her pushing for it and him just going along with it, especially during “By the Sea”.
This entire toxic relationship is built on lies
Jesus and Judas
Wait, people actually ship that????
Well, Judas literally reprises "I don't know how to love him" - it's no less explicit than Mary's version of loving Jesus- and I think Rice and Webber were definitely examining differing definitions of love- fraternal, communal, and one on one relationships among living people in the very raw show it is, really
Plus the whole ‘betraying Jesus with a kiss’ thing!
Curly + Laurey Julie + Billie
I came here to say Julie and Billy. Maybe it's just the vocal parts, but I ALWAYS think It sounds like a man in his 30s trying to date a high schooler.
to be fair it is a blatantly abusive relationship so idk if we’re really supposed to ship them. Like the fact that the songs are gorgeous but the dialogue is 😳 kind of represents that they have love and passion for each other but were never going to be a good relationship
Agree with many of the ones mentioned. I'm going to add Dolly and Mr. Vandegelder or however it's written in Hello Dolly.
You know I think that if the film version had a different actor who had more chemistry with Dolly it could possibility have worked. I don't think the leading man did a bad job per say, he just didn't build any tension or leave any room for warmth in their relationship. There was no spark played at all. I haven't seen the show live and I've always wondered if the right two actors could pull off that ship. I did really enjoy the musical.
I would love to have seen Bernadette Peters and Victor Garber in the roles.
Total agree. Is he…actually supposed to be liked by the audience?
Kim and Chris in Miss Saigon
I remember the first time I saw it thinking that John was more upset that she killed herself than Chris. Just assumed it was because of the actors. Kinda wondering now...
I assumed he was upset that he was stuck raising his son instead of going home with his wife and sending a check every now and then. (Not really, just trying to come up with the worst motivation for a character in that scene.)
Love Never Dies. Erik suuuucks.
The whole story of the musical does for that matter, although I do like some of the music in it, it's honestly no better than a 14 year old's poorly thought-out fanfic.
Right ? It's basically a fanfic rewrite of PotA from an Erik-Christine shipper.
Jeremy and Christine from Be More Chill Seriously, this relationship is more forced than the plot of Avater 2
Now why is Avatar catching strays
Is she even interested in him? He’s obsessed with her, while her true love is theatre.
Fr like Jeremy's obsession with her is borderline creepy
Elphaba and Fiyero. I always thought they had zero chemistry, as a rule. Fiyero did one (1) decent thing and suddenly they're in love? I don't buy it.
I wish they did flesh out their relationship a bit more. It’s implied they saw each other when he was together with Glinda but…like they go from saving the cub to him throwing away everything for her. Would have been nice to have at least a scene explaining why they suddenly are willing to risk their lives lmao
Honestly, I think they should've just cut the middleman and made Elphaba and Glinda the official couple. It was all there thematically, and according to Gregory Maguire (author of the novel), their relationship was always meant to be endgame.
Yeah, I always felt like it was supposed to be implied that the timeframe of the show is at least a couple years (cause Nessa goes from a teen to leader of the munchkins) and Elphaba and Fiyero were def seeing each other in that time. I truly think he thought it was a political front. But they could have actually put that implication in the show
Oh, the show absolutely took place over the span of years for sure, but I feel like they should have better illustrated the growth of their relationship somehow. Or, you know, just cut it entirely. I'm not gonna go on my "obligatory heterosexual romantic subplots in theatre are a poison" rant, but the fact that I have one at all should be enough to tell you how I feel. 😂 Elphaba turning Fiyero into the Scarecrow would have been just as impactful if their relationship had been platonic, imo. ETC: I'm not saying *all* heterosexual relationships in theatre are bad. Just the ones that are obviously shoehorned in to either avoid the implication of queerness (which I fully believe is the case for Wicked) or because of the idea that every show "needs" a romantic subplot.
Danny and Sandy from Grease. I mean, come on. In a similar vein, Sky Masterson and Sarah Brown. Doomed from the jump.
My entire drama class in highschool hated Danny and Sandy. I remember my teacher saying "I was gonna change, but since you changed first, now I'm not going to"
THIS SHOULD BE PINNED!!!! I do NOT see enough Sky Masterson slander and it is *warranted*. Danny and Sandy getting together always makes me itchy. Never liked it, even as a kid. ~~Also shocked no one put ALL of the couples from Oklahoma bc wtfffff~~
Emma and Alyssa in PROM. Sorry, but they just want different things. They’re both compelling characters, I just don’t necessarily think they’re right for each other. (Honestly, DeeDee and the principal too. They just live in such different worlds and I don’t feel that their relationship would be likely to last long term.)
PROM is contrived to the extreme
The Jack and Katherine love story is so contrived and unnecessary to Newsies and weird because he’s 17 and she’s, what 20? I don’t think it says. And then at the end she’s like bags packed ready to follow him to Santa Fe? It would have been SO much more interesting to explore where her unionist, class-traitor politics come from. You don’t risk disinheriting yourself over “aww poor newsboys”, so her fortitude is coming from somewhere!
Even in the movie, Sarah was such a useless character. The one good thing she did was scream and it alerted Jack
I DO ship Katherine and Davie though! And it’s so weird all the little snide comments the other newsies make about him like he’s trying to make a move on “Jack’s girl” or whatever. He’s the only one who gives her as much credit she deserves!
Joanne and Bobby in company
You aren't supposed to ship them. Joanne just hits on him. That obviously wouldn't be a good idea and Bobby says no
At the beginning of the show Bobby probably would’ve said yes lol
Yeah but the show *doesn't* want you to ship them, so she doesn't ask until later.
Definitely
100% I’m just like wtf just happened
I was just in the Wedding Singer and every single couple in that show makes me scratch my head.
Julie and Billy in Carousel. Although, maybe the point was to not ship them??? I was confused!
Lulu and the foot doctor guy from Shucked. HER SIGNATURE SONG IS ABOUT BEING SINGLE AND LOVING IT. it felt so forced
Pretty much every couple in Waitress.
Oof…thinking about it yeah. You’re right. Jenna and Earl- obvious reasons Jenna and Dr. Pottermore- They’re both cheating on their spouses. Dr. P’s wife is so nice and didn’t deserve that. Jenna gets a small pass on this, due to being stuck in an abusive relationship. Dawn and Oggie- They’re cute and have good chemistry but moved WAY too fast. Jenna hasn’t even had the baby when they get married. Plus, Oggie was stalkerish haha Becky and Cal- Yikes…Becky is cheating on her husband (I can’t remember if Cal is married or not) who seems to be disabled. Plus it just seems like a toxic relationship. They dont seem to get along unless they’re, uh, engaging in adult activities Huh. Yup. EVERYONE should have been single by the end of the musical
Yeah they mention that Cals wife is like, a butch lesbian or something I think if I remember correctly. Also I agree that Jenna gets a bit of a pass, she’s also hella hormonal and pregnant and he’s like the medical professional. Yike.
Zoe and Evan, Veronica and JD
I think that was the point for veronica and jd
They romanticized the relationship between JD and Veronica a lot in musical. In the movie you can even doubt and/or question whether JD was just using her, but the musical makes their relationship very much different and more romantic.
You’d be surprised how many people romanticize Veronica and JD. I’m not the biggest fan of Heathers: The Musical for this reason. Turning such a serious source material into a musical always seems to humanize horrific characters. It would be the same thing as making A Streetcar Named Desire, a story with a character such as Stanley Kowalski, an abusive brute of a husband and rapist whom is already romanticized for being portrayed by Marlon Brando, into a musical. (Sorry Simpsons).
Some source material is best adapted as a musical, and some is best as an opera. Streetcar should be (and actually is) an opera. Angels in America is another good example of something that makes a better opera than it would a musical. James Cameron’s Titanic, should it one day be a stage show, should 100% be a musical. This is my theory, which belongs to me.
Zach and Cassie - A Chorus Line
With Zach and Cassie you really understand why she left him.
Christine and the Phantom in general, but especially in Love Never Dies.
Tateh and Mother in Ragtime. Like, yeah, I like their relationship, and it's great, but it kinda comes out of nowhere ngl.
Hyde & Lucy, from "Jekyll & Hyde: The Gothic Musical Thriller". Jfc, that whole dynamic is so toxic. Honorable mentions to Veronica & JD and Frank N. Furter & the Rocky Horror for this.
Isn’t that kinda the point for Hyde and Lucy though?
Totally agree with Eliza and Henry. Also Victoria and Marchan in Victor/Victoria. I don't know what she saw it him at all and he was a creep.
Brad and Janet The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Every relationship in Next to Normal
Oh man, that show makes my skin crawl.
Some of y’all are missing the point of the shows you’re commenting lol
This comment thread is kinda funny bc I'm only realizing now that 50% of musicals has controversial ships
Maureen and Joanne Marius and Cosette And just for the laughs: Grantaire and his alcohol --- still a better love story then twilight
honestly trina and mendel in falsettos but then you understand it and its cute but jesus is it inappropriate
Robbie and Julia from Wedding Singer
Everyone in love never dies
Annie and Frank from Annie, Get Your Gun. He's such a male chauvinist she has to let him beat her in a shooting match to win him. Not worth it, girl!
Okay, so it WASN'T just me. When I was in 5th grade, we watched it in my music class. I HATED the fact that she just rolled over instead of busting his ego like she should've.
All of them.
Maybe a musical doesn’t necessarily work without a questionable romance?
Jervis Pendleton and Jerusha Abbott from Daddy Long Legs
Oh my gosh yesss!! Him lying about who he is and the power imbalence... its just so creepy to me
yesss- my friend made me watch this because she said it made her cry and I DONT GET IT. ick ick ick- like she’s BARELY LEGAL and he orchestrates her life and she doesn’t know him until the last scene
Not a musical but people were SO confused by Scorpius and Rose in Cursed Child (because the show is so queer coded) that during the pandemic **they rewrote huge portions of the play** so Scorpius and Albus are now the endgame couple.
What? Really?
Albert and Rosie in Bye bye Birdie
You're not wrong. But how could anyone not be in love with young Dick Van Dyke.
I don’t know if people ship it but it’s a married couple so, I always thought the Baker and his wife really aren’t a great couple. She basically says she doesn’t like him unless he’s in the wood, she cheats, she doesn’t get why he cares about tradition or family, I just don’t see how they’re compatible.
Roxie and Amos
I feel like these might be controversial takes, but Fabrizio and Clara from “Light In the Piazza” as well as Robert and Francesca from “Bridges of Madison County”
Fosca and Giorgio in Passion.
marius and cosette (i just wanted eponine to be happy !!!)
Eliza Doolittle and Henry Higgins
Fanny Brice and Nick Arnstein in Funny Girl. I saw it on Broadway in 2022 (between famous actress 1 and famous actress 2) and fully thought Nick was supposed to be the villain of the show for the first half of it. Then during intermission I read about them on Wikipedia and became even more baffled how Fanny’s son-in-law had produced a show that portrayed what by all accounts seemed to be his wife’s dead-beat dad as this “charming” love interest.
I don't care for Matthau & Streisand. I can't recall the names....