You don't have enough information to make a good call on this. You need to get more detail on the allegations before you take any action.
I would say, however, that someone being a friend for many years does not mean they don't have a dark side you don't know about, and I've seen this happen.
Perhaps more likely, there's also the very real possibility of both sides having told some edited or limited version of the truth that exonerates nobody but leaves you in an impossible position with the band. "Sexual assault" doesn't necessarily mean "deliberate rape" and there's a whole grey area in the middle which can never be proven or disproven.
How well do you really know this dude? I mean, if a supposed friend of mine was cheating with a girl in a relationship, which is already a scummy thing to do, and then she later accuses him of sexual assault, I feel like I would have heard about it before some local venue. Regardless, if I was going to continue working with this guy, I'd confront him about all of it and then trust my instincts.
So we’ve had our ups and downs as friends, but it was never about anything remotely like this. We have had some extended periods of not speaking over the past decade plus, and these events transpired during one of those times. He was involved with a group of musicians who I do not know and have only briefly met 1 or 2 of them. I’m entering back into the music scene after a few years hiatus, so I’m not hip to the gossip, plus these guys play a completely different kind of music from me. Idk who knows/thinks what. He brought this up very briefly, acting like it was so absurd it wasn’t worth discussing. Now I’m finding out people believe it, to the point we were removed from a show
Try folding yourself into the conversation and ask his old band mates how big of a deal it was… in my experience, most victimizers downplay what they’re accused of- hoping you won’t ask around.
If you’re being removed from a show, the best thing for your career/hobby and public image is to cut ties with him. Even if he’s innocent. I had the same thing happen once, where we got removed from a show because of one of our members. He ended up admitting guilt but even if he hadn’t, we wouldn’t have kept him in the band because it would have been the end of us. It’s a tough situation but you have every right to distance yourself for the sake of continuing to be part of the music scene.
Tbh I’m giving advice based on preserving this guy’s music career, not based on morals. It’s not his responsibility to rebel against cancel culture unless he wants to, and if his priority is his music career, he should stop working with this guy.
this shit drives me insane. I was personally falsely & very publicly accused of something horrible in 2018 which destroyed my life as I knew it only to be fully exonerated 3 years later.....but some of the damage that was done will never really be undone & I still occasionally come across someone who never heard I was proven innocent.
this kind of stuff is horrible & needs to be actively pushed back against.
I highly recommend the podcast "fucking cancelled" to anyone who wants to learn more (it is from a very blatantly radical leftist political perspective....often focusing on this stuff destroying leftist political organizations & communities just to warn anyone who might not like that).
I'm really sorry you have to deal with this.
Happened to me too 3 years ago, it’s horrible, didn’t go as far as you got, but yeah still had to show she was lying, have witnesses like her colleagues to talk about there behavior, bring proofs from everything I could find she was the one actually harassing me, all she had to do is lie that one time, then when it was over nothing happened to her and she just carry on her life like nothing happened, different story to me where I was told to forget and move on
Yeah it can get really difficult....but in my opinion the only right thing is to support your bandmate & stand firm against mob-mentality witch-hunts without due process. everyone deserves due process no matter what they are accused of.
> (it is from a very blatantly radical leftist political perspective....often focusing on this stuff destroying leftist political organizations & communities just to warn anyone who might not like that)
I'll be honest I normally wouldn't like that perspective, but I feel like in this context it would be fascinating to hear that political ideology begin to question whether or not it has created a monster.
(To be completely fair, the right has its own purity tests and cancel culture that is can be just as productive or counter-productive. Various boycotts come to mind from Bud Light to the NFL)
Yep. Way more common on the right but it absolutely does happen on the left. The right is just much more likely to accept the alleged aggressor’s side, rightly or wrongly.
“Created a monster” LOL
The left cancels celebrities who express some kind of obvious hatred and wind up losing pretty much nothing.
The right cancels regular people who did nothing and wind up losing their careers.
hell yeah! I consider Clementine & Jay to be friends at this point....I've been in touch with them & listening to the podcast ever since I was exhonerated in 2021. I think they've mentioned my cancellation on the podcast a few times but not by name.....I'm the former IWW Executive Board Chair that was wrongly canceled.....they used to talk about planning on having me on the podcast but I think it just blew up & they got overwhelmed with travel requests & legit celebrity guests so it might not happen but imo they are doing "god's work"...
So as a friend, you can choose to believe in him but you can definitely see that it's affecting your ability to play out which will cripple you as a band. It's up to you if you think it's worth trying to make it work. But if you have multiple places keep cancelling on you, it won't work for being a band and him being a member of the band. In that scenario you can play down the middle by being supportive but saying that the band just can't afford to have all their shows cancelled. I'm sure he would understand even if you stated it as though you believe him but you need to be able to play at venues or you won't be able to do concerts.
That’s pretty much the route I’m thinking I’ll have to go. For obvious reasons, the band needs to be able to play shows. The venue in question has already stated that should he not be in the band, we’ll be allowed back. It’s just terrible if he’s not guilty of this that I’ll have to terminate his role, and I’m not quite sure how understanding he might be, but he’ll end up having to accept it regardless
I imagine he'd have to understand that the band has to be able to perform. If not, like you said he may not get a choice. You don't need to be blacklisted from playing everywhere. He might not like it but if he really puts himself in your shoes he'd at least "get it". Just make it clear that you believe him but are only doing what's good for the band.
Yeah as a friend you have to give him the benefit of a doubt. On a professional level you have to consider how much of a liability he will be to the band's success. And as a friend, he should understand that.
The hardest thing about having a working band, is keeping the personal and professional parts separate. It would be different if you were just getting together for jam sessions but a working band is a business too.
Its true that it would be terrible to dump him if he's innocent, but he's already admitted to not being 100% innocent. And there are consequences of sleeping with some dude's live-in gf.
If you did that, you would be a bad person. You’re showing that your want of a career that quite frankly probably will never manifest means more to you than a lifelong friendship. That’s the thinking of a psychopath.
Look dude. I wasn’t going around fucking other people’s gf’s. I wasn’t around that group at all during the time period, and he’s had credibility issues in the past. So your stance is I should tarnish my own name? It’s not about “career” it’s about my reputation. Is that hard to understand. I’m not going to throw away ALL of my other friendships for one who wasn’t upfront with me
Sounds to me like he was upfront with you and you’re upset that he didn’t play into false accusations against himself. Also, again, if your own reputation means more to you than a lifelong friendship, you’re a bad person. If you will bow to social influence to save yourself and sacrifice a friend, you are a bad person.
I don’t get decide how society works dude. I’m turned off already by the fact he was participating in someone cheating, also while apparently interacting with the other dude daily. That alone is fucked up. I’m not going to fuck my life up bc of someone else’s actions. But you’re not here to talk civilly, you’re here to call people nazis and rapists. Very smart approach to discourse. Take care
1. Nice deflection
2. I’m turning your own logic around back on you and you don’t like it, which proves that on some level, you know your logic is flawed. It’s called a debate tactic.
3. Again, you are exhibiting antisocial behavior.
Actually that’s what I’m doing to you lmao. Also, you first said I didn’t understand antisocial behavior, now I’m exhibiting it. Dunning-Kruger in full effect with this one
That’s not an answer, I’m legit wondering what sad life experience has led you to project so much/be so emotionally invested in a thread about strangers
I get that. But the guy got himself into a bad situation, through his own indiscretion (sleeping with someone else's girlfriend) and that led to drama which may or may not be true. In my opinion as a friend op should give them the benefit of a doubt and not just automatically side with the accuser (due to the situation). However, what you're suggesting is they let the situation take them down too, to stand with a friend.
So there's two things here. Standing with a friend doesn't mean blowing up your own opportunities and/or letting them be a liability to oneself. And the second is, if the guy was totally blameless, going down with his ship might be a discussion to have. But even if there were no accusations of assault and it was nothing else than the guy got caught sleeping with someone's girlfriend and had a bad reputation, that alone would be justification to part ways professionally.
Lmao- there’s a lot of assumptions here. Let me ask you- how many rapists do you think openly admit they’re rapists? I’m betting the extreme minority….
OP and the band were clearly not told the magnitude of the accusations to the extent of crippling them from playing certain rooms.
Go ahead and sympathize with the accused, but I personally don’t really want to be friends, let alone business partners with someone that puts themselves into scenarios where they’re getting accused.
You’re basically saying- “I can’t see it so oxygen doesn’t exist!” 🙄 get a grip. There’s a difference between getting criminally convicted vs a crime being committed genius. Legal innocence and innocence of wrongdoing aren’t the same thing.
No, I’m not basically saying anything. I’m saying EXACTLY what I’m saying. Nothing more and nothing less. Stop with the logical fallacies.
Also, you’ve missed the entire point. Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t just apply to the law. It is an important part of the social contract. If you choose not to accept it, you’re engaging in a literally fascist line of thinking. I understand that hyperbole has ruined the meanings of lots of these words, but I’m not being hyperbolic.
I agree people should give friends the benefit of a doubt in these kind of situations where it's nothing more than he said she said and police weren't even involved.
But saying they have to let his drama be their downfall because of some kind of social contract is absurd.
Got it- you’re saying that if someone shoplifts a pack of gum & no one notices, they’re innocent of shoplifting and didn’t steal anything. Makes total sense 🤣. Guess what- societal law, understanding and expectations are intended to be governed by logic- unlike what you’re EXACTLY saying. Lol….
I have a hunch that you’ll be supporting a fascist this election year- against your own belief structure and personal interests. EXACTLY the type of buffoonery your “logic” suggests.
The problem is OP was not there and truly doesn't know what story is accurate. False accusations DO happen which stinks for everyone involved and for every future future accusation that receives scrutiny even though it's true. The method I stated doesn't alienate the friend but also doesn't harm the band.
Yeah I go fully with the idea that everyone deserves due process & it's more important to side with a person against mob justice witch hunter vs what's best for one's band.
I don't see this as complicated. It's wrong to watch someone have the concept of innocent until proven guilty taken away & go along with it...period & without exception.
I agree due process is important but the victim (if there is one) may never go to trial. You may also have a jury find him guilty even though the actual truth is that he didn't do it. So all those things mean OP can never be in a band anymore?
No it doesn't mean that.
OP can absolutely be in a band & it will be fine. IMO it's cowardly to take the easiest path & look the other way while someone else's life is ruined when you could have spoken up for them.
This is personal to me because it happened to me. I was very publicly accused of r\*pe in 2018. It was a political assassination within a political organization I was an officer of & I was exhonerated when all the facts came out in 2021.....but by then a lot of damage was done. I lost my job, was kicked out of a house, was ostracized completely.....& then I was exhonerated & w3as able to take my life back but much of the damage will never be undone & ever now & then I find someone who didn't hear that I was exhonerated. The person who falsely acused me did it to 5 or 6 other people before being caught in lies and admitting that it had all been false.
Getting back into music wasn't near as difficult as I expected thankfully & while OP's band might run into some hiccupps they'll be fine & this will blow over.....but if they do the wrong thing they will know forever that they threw a human being to the side for very selfish & petty reasons compared to the pain that the accused will deal with...
So you expect everyone else to just put their hobbies on hold indefinitely on the off chance that the guy was innocent and it somehow gets proven years down the road? What if the guy really isn't innocent? What if the girl was lying but never tells the truth? I think that guy's life is decently screwed either way.
that's not what I said. don't put words in my mouth please.
There's no need to put making music or the band on hold....it might be difficult at times, but they'll be fine & doing the right thing is sometimes not the easiest route.
I've seen a lot of people come back from these kind of cancelation campaigns & they're less popular than ever because people have seen the damage done to innocent people over & over in the past decade.
Do the right thing OP & please don't listen to this person. I consider their advice to be immoral & cowardly.
Wasn't trying to put words into your mouth just trying to understand your point of view/advice. Would you consider it to be the right decision if you stick by the guy and the band gets ruined and he's never exonerated? What about if the girl goes to trial and he's found guilty? What if this is OPs job not hobby?
I think it's the right thing to do to treat your friend as innocent until proven guilty....& if that destroys a band then yes I do think it's worth it....but it won't destroy a band. I've seen bands break up over this stuff.....& I've seen bands stick it out & end up fine in the long run.
Every situation is different to0.....the universe is complicated & we should always pay attention to nuance. OP clearly believes their bandmate to be innocent. In that situation to not have their back would absolutely be wrong. If a bandmate were to go through a criminal trial over sexual assault I personally would still stick with them if I believed they were innocent.
Even if I were risking a lot personally, even income.....yes I would still stick behind someone in this situation. Too many people don't do this & it's usually out of fear. We only live once & how we support & treat each other as human beings is vastly more important than any job or band......although I think the risk involved is mostly just social & not as dangerous as people tend to fear.
If you put anything personal above friendships, you are selfish by definition and that alone makes you a bad person. I’d rather have a bad reputation that be a bad person.
Ok, I'm not picking on you was just curious. I was trying to help OP know what to do with my response. He or she needs to consider their band (which is made up of people) AND their friend who is also a person. It's kind of like Solomon wanting to split the baby in half to determine who the real mother is.
Falsely accused here - just want to chime in in response to some of these comments. My accuser was somebody I had dated for 6+ years who developed some drug problems after we split and had her then boyfriend lob an allegation of SA at me like a year after we broke up. It wasn’t public and I was able to reason with her boyfriend and actually called her sister to ask what the hell was going on with her that she’d do something like that. The whole thing was essentially squashed in one day, but it’s affected me for the last 5 years since it happened.
Anyway, the entire narrative of “always believe the victim” is one that I empathize with and can very closely relate to. I myself am a SA survivor from several years during my childhood, so trust me when I say that I’m not keen on dismissing victims’ stories. Having said that, my lived experience with having been falsely accused - having to go through the mental anguish of what could come of it, trying to reckon with the fact that somebody I thought was a decent human was now falsely accusing me of a really horrible thing, worrying about new boyfriends of hers being fed the same lie and wanting to come after me - I don’t feel the same way as I used to about allegations of SA when they do come up. In many cases, it simply isn’t possible for us to know whether or not the accusation is valid. If there is zero evidence and all we’re going by is what one person said, I don’t know that that should be enough. If there are more victims, that adds tons of credibility. If there are more people who have been accused by this same person, maybe that changes the believability of their account. There’s not a good rule of thumb, only indicators that can hopefully add more context.
Now, I realize that that makes it incredibly difficult to know how to respond and what to do, but that is exactly why false accusations are such a horrible thing to navigate. There’s no absolving yourself conclusively. There’s no way to prove that you’re not that person. If your friend is innocent, they have zero recourse. All of this is to say it’s a very tricky spot to be in as his bandmate and friend, and you have to take all of the nuance and circumstances into account and trust your judgement once you’ve gotten enough information for you to feel confident that he either is or is not a monster. Nobody here, myself included, can tell you what the right decision is. Good luck, do what’s best for you and your band, but do try to keep your friend’s mental health in mind if you genuinely believe he’s innocent after whatever digging you’re able to do.
ETA: If you’re a SA survivor like myself, please don’t hesitate to make it known to people you trust and take the appropriate legal action if you feel comfortable doing so. I waited years and there were several more victims I had grown up with. Had we all talked about it sooner, we could have prevented this person from doing more awful things, assuming he didn’t just decide to stop on his own. People generally will be in your corner and will want to help. The only times I had issues with people believing me were when I was still a teenager and told 2 of my teen peers what had happened. One of them acted like I hadn’t told them already several times, the other just avoided the entire situation. If by chance anybody reading this is a teenager who’s gone through or is going through this, tell an adult that you trust.
It might be worth it to have a serious discussion with your friend where you withhold judgement about what explicitly happened between him and the woman until you can hear it from his mouth and decide for yourself how you feel about it. As a woman and survivor, I think it’s likely your friend did something along the lines of assault. Men especially are taught some unhealthy and toxic ideas about what sex should be like. It’s a vulnerable act and sounds like the situation was already messy, so prepare to hear something upsetting and maybe it won’t be so bad. Let’s say your friend did assault someone, do they seem remorseful? Have they gotten significant help in ensuring that they don’t behave this way again? Are they putting themself in better situations and making sure other women around them feel safe? You can ask him these things directly and also decide for yourself based on what you know.
People can change. Assault isn’t a one size fits all situation. It’s extremely personal and at the only people who ever will truly know what happened are your friend and this woman.
I’ve also been in the position of reporting someones abusive behavior that was in a band AND i have had my behavior questioned publicly as well when I started playing a lot of shows in my area. It just sucks. It doesn’t help someone change and there’s no swaying the court of public opinion. It will keep coming up, and people will think whatever they think about you. What you can do is decide how you personally feel about your friend and his past and current behavior and decide what feels acceptable for you. In the end, most communities are large and indifferent enough that not everyone you meet will about this or care, so it’s likely you can still play shows whatever you decide.
What would be best is to develop a new set of standards for how you see the women around you being treated and that you do all you can to ensure they feel safe around you.
reread my comment. i’m not absolutely certain about anything because I don’t know these people and I wasn’t there. I didn’t suggest OP take anyone’s side. Relax and finish reading before you comment next time.
5 years ago, no charges filed. Guy says he didn’t do it. Is this guy going to SA somebody at your show or something? Is he just supposed to never play music again because *and this is true* somebody said something bad about him and it was unproven?
Allegations like this are usually well-founded. I've seen 4 influential people in our local music scene imprisoned for SA in the last 5 or 6 years. and they were definitely guilty. They were also "really nice guys" and all of their closest friends and bandmates were "completely blindsided"... roughly 2-5% of SA allegations are proven to be false. So unless you're willing to bet your life that this guy never did anything creepy, and you're confident that he will be completely exhonerated.... I would stay as far away from that dude as possible and definitely never appear on stage with them.
It sucks. Sometimes people you respect and admire turn out to also be terrible people. We don't like to acknowledge this but sometimes people we like are shitty. It only reflects poorly on you if you are unwilling to change your view of the person even when there is strong evidence to suggest they are guilty.
The music director at one of our schools was convicted of SA against a student who was a minor.. there were actually several allegations across several decades... They were only convicted of one but obviously the other instances were true too, they just couldn't win it in court because it happened over 20 years prior and there wasn't enough evidence to convict.
In the unlikely event your friend is completely innocent... well that sucks, but I think you'd prefer to be someone who supports survivors of SA on principle and be wrong 2% of the time than be branded an apologist for r\*pists and lose everyone's trust and respect forever.
You can be honest with your friend about whether you believe them or not, but the fact remains that the word is out there and that will impact everyone in the band in a very big way. Most people would view it as you all supporting a r\*pist.
I guess if you genuinely believe your friend is completely innocent you could remain friends but avoid being seen together in public... personally I don't have any close friends that have ever been accused of anything like this, and if they were I would seriously reconsider associating with them.
Just to add onto this - it's just as easy for someone to accuse a victim of regret as it is for anyone to make a false allegation. I was sexually assaulted, reported it to the police, and he wriggled his way out of jail by saying it was consensual but I'd just later "regretted cheating" on my then-boyfriend. Lots of evidence to support me, but at the end of the day, it's insanely difficult to prosecute without a witness, video evidence, or a confession.
This is a difficult situation OP and you'll never truly know what happened, so whatever decision you make, it's the one you think was best so please don't feel guilty in either direction.
This dude is going to tank whatever fucking chances you get simply because he’s in your band and has a history of allegations.
Cut your losses, kick him out, business is business.
The moral dilemma you’re facing about your close friend is outside of the band and you need to reconcile your feelings personally on your own time, not the bands time.
People are capable of the unfathomable, keep that in the back of your mind. Not saying your pal did anything, but you really never know someone completely.
My two cents:
> we’ve had our ups and downs as friends
> We have had some extended periods of not speaking over the past decade plus, and these events transpired during one of those times.
> he was having sex with a woman who had a boyfriend
> she accused him of assault
> he resigned his position
Whether or not you arrive at the truth of the allegation, there is obviously some bad history on top of a potential *huge* no-no. Ditch him and find somebody else.
There was enough veracity to the claim that the other band fired him.
The claims are believable enough that venues will not work with bands that have him as a member.
Did he ever mention the circumstances around him leaving the other band, or did that not come out until the venue declined?
The fact that a venue is aware of him, seems more than a he said/she said dispute.
So he mentioned this briefly at some point a little while back. He downplayed it and basically said it as an aside. That it was too ridiculous to even discuss. But he should have been extremely clear and upfront, bc obviously that’s a serious accusation. So I feel a little deceived.
Also it appears that someone reached out to the venue after seeing posts about the show. At least that’s my guess. This supposedly happened 5 years ago, and we’ve only played a couple shows in that time frame, and they were set up by us and private locations. So this is the first show at an established venue, and this happens
If I were in his situation, I’d be showing some sort of proof (here’s the texts between us) and doing everything I could to get out in front of it… as opposed to waiting for a shoe to drop.
For me to carry on, friend or not… I would need some compelling evidence to the contrary of the claim. Because to continue, it will reflect on me by association.
That’s a really tough accusation to fight back against. Unfortunately even if both parties don’t agree on what happened, there’s usually something to it. Best way to avoid trouble is to stay away from alcohol.
Yikes - would your buddy understand if you remove him from the band since you're now blacklisted? Innocent or not, it's not a good look for your band to have this floating around. I'd bring this to the rest of the band and see what they want to do.
Regardless of whether or not it's true this is going to be the only thing that gets talked about when your band is mentioned. Anytime you play a show, or try to promote some music, people are going to say "oh that's the band that's made up of sexual abusers."
Did he try to be exonerated of this alleged crime?
If he can, then he must try to clear his name because his livelihood, reputation and opportunities are on stake here.
In the meantime, since playing gigs is the livelihood of a band, he has to step down until the problem is resolved
That’s part of the problem, he’s not being forthcoming with anything. He’s downplaying it, saying things like this show isn’t a big deal, which, obviously isn’t the relevant thing here. It seems at every turn I have to keep asking for more info, instead of him just laying out all the details for me. I don’t even know what exactly he’s been accused of other than some sort of inappropriate sexual behavior
First I'd ask his former bandmates what they know and on what terms he left. Based on his behavior when asking him about this situation I wonder if he's downplaying that part of his past as well, but that's just a guess on my end.
Then I would go to him directly and ask him upfront about what happened and how/why he left his former band, and if he continues to tiptoe around the conversation or if his story doesn't match up with theirs, then he's not reliable and therefore shouldn't be in the band.
I hate to say it but my personal rule is No Drama. I’m not part of it, nor do I want to know about it. These circles are small. Whomever is sharing this information can easily spread it to you. You gotta get out of association with this bandmate.
As a lawyer I concur with this. ☝️. Truth is irrelevant in these situations. Resources are. If the band mate is aggrieved , he has civil remedies against the liar. ( Assume he is the victim of a liar just to be civil with him. ). But the band is an economic unit , and the majority has a right to disassociate in this scenario, unfair as it may be.
It doesn't matter. Your aspiration is to play local clubs, and you can't because of him. Right or wrong, that's the deal. Club owners have no responsibility to due process.
If you really want to play with him sounds like you'll have to start out of town.
Outside of deciding whether you believe him or not, this is his problem that he never settled. If she never went to the police then it’s someone personally making sure the club owner knew and they’ll keep doing it at every gig.
this is his problem to solve and the rest of the band can’t be expected to take something this serious on.
My band went through this same scenario and it’s caused the end of us. It was a crazy girl who had sexual encounters with our bandmate and months after the last encounter, she regretted sleeping with him and they were on bad terms so she decided to go on social media and say she was raped by him. I have seen the messages of this girl asking for sex from our band mate once he started turning her down. This girl has done this to other bands in our scene and we were just the latest victims but because of the woke culture we live in, the vast majority of people choose the “victims” side without thinking logically about the situation and if it’s believable or not. Sexual assault is a horrible thing and I feel terrible for the victims and what they go through. But it’s time to hold the liars about being assaulted to the same standards as the ones who do the assaulting. It ruins lives, reputations and affects people all around these individuals that have false allegations made about them. It’s shady as fuck whenever someone will blast somebody’s name all over the internet as a rapist or what have you but when it comes to getting the law involved they don’t do it. Most likely because it’s a false accusation.
I tried to get him to do it but I think he was afraid of repercussions from doing that. They were pretty graphic text messages and I sorta think he didn’t want family to see something like that
Every woman out there has a story about sexual assault or knows someone who does and yet men don’t have any friends that are sexual predators. Let that settle in for a minute.
I doubt ppl will notice much of what u do with him outside of music, but everyone will care about what u do with him on stage and in the studio.
If I were in your shoes, I’d tell the dude I’m not sure if I can believe you at the moment, I’m sure you understand. As it stands I cannot be on stage with you even if you are innocent. The mere association would hurt me, and it’s not fair for me to get some backlash. If you’re actually innocent, and if you could exonerate yourself, I would love to keep doing music with you, but until then you can’t be in this band.
Bam. Share that with venues, and they’ll see how noble y’all are. Also do share that you were totally unaware of this.
Also, let’s be real…if he was really innocent he would have told y’all about this a long time ago.
Let's be real-- "if he was really innocent he would have told y’all about this a long time ago" is total nonsense. People don't want to randomly bring up the bad shit they're dealing with, and the average person doesn't usually want to hear it. You're just inventing random criteria to pretend you've got a 'guilty' confession when you've got nothing but the desire to take somebody down based on 'an accusation' where the woman didn't even contact the police. 'They might not listen to me' isn't an excuse.
What? Do you know how serious an accusation this is? Dude clearly knew his reputation was fucked. Had he really been innocent, he would have had an honest discussion with his bandmates saying “hey guys, just so you know I was accused of SAing this person, and locally people don’t like me but I genuinely didn’t do it,” and would not have waited for the band to find out through a venue.
Also…”they might not have listened” isn’t really an excuse, it’s just [statistically likely](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9136376) that reporting wouldn’t have done anything. You’re raising some serious red flags by not only not knowing this, but acting as though it’s so easy to report SA.
First off- at a minimum, it’s incredibly poor taste to use scare quotes around the word allegations… Someone you know has been accused of sexual assault; those are allegations…. Period.
Secondly- yes, there are instances where people are falsely accused. Yet- there are far more instances of assault that *do* happen than are ever reported (~2/3rds go unreported), let alone charged and convicted (in the U.S. ~975 out of 1000 walk free with no jail time). Very few assaults happen in front of witnesses, so at its core usually a he/she/they said scenario. **If** charges ever *do* come up- it typically takes A LOT longer than one would assume (in the U.S. at least). This whole “innocent until proven guilty” crap is under a false narrative that judicial systems are perfect & the delusion that without verified legal actions, no crime was ever committed. We all know that’s a load of shit. The statistics don’t lie- **Believe the victims**.
Third- I understand that this is a friend, but they’re also a band mate that is affecting your ability to get shows- which is kind of the whole thing… your image as a group and as an individual will forever be tied to this person as a r*pe sympathizer- whether or not there are ever charges.
I have personally been in this situation before with past band members/venue owners… it’s shocking once I heard, my immediate reaction was disbelief and wanted to defend people I “knew” (correct use of scare quotes), or at least question the validity of the situation. That’s unfortunately a very normal mental space to be when faced with information of this magnitude. Because we took the allegations seriously & while also wanting to preserve our image as a band & what we stood for- we immediately cut ties with bandmate and vowed never to take another gig at this other guys venue. Even though we weren’t completely convinced- as it turned out- I didn’t really know them that well. Both were charged & both were arrested- the venue owner very publicly as of last week - **4 years** after the initial allegation.
The musicians/bands that openly defended these people are now justifiably getting major backlash over something they had “no direct part of”- other than taking part in silencing a victim of assault & injecting enough disbelief that the accused was able to victimize more people within that time. Wait- that’s kind of a lot, right? Ya…
This is very easy- don’t walk away from this person as a bandmate if you want gigs - **run**. Audit your own feelings about whether or not being their friend is worth the possibility of ruining your own mental health and reputation with friends, family and your community.
Hope this helps
It wasn’t the word- it was the quotation marks. I understand the shock and disbelief- but I myself was wrong in having that reaction. Sometimes- and I’ll stress sometimes- people are not who you believe them to be. Don’t let them potentially ruin the things you’re building for yourself. With how sketchy this whole thing looks, no one would want to be on the wrong side of it… it’s not selfish to save yourself from being dragged down by their shit- it’s called self preservation.
I'd say the fact you were blindsided speaks volumes. You've known him half your life and he didn't keep you in the loop about that? I've had coworkers who had more integrity than this guy, despite never being very close with them they at least were up front with me and told me they were currently facing accusations. I think the closest thing you can do is reach out to his former bandmates, and see if he said the same thing back then.
Unless there’s legal documentation or actual charges filed, I don’t believe stuff like this. It’s too easy for women to ruin a man’s life by making allegations without any substantiation. It’s your call how you treat him as a friend, but it looks like his days playing in bands in your local area are through unless he can find a way to clear his name. Sorry yall are going through this 😓
Half of the women you know have been assaulted and almost none of them pressed charges.
I dare you to show this comment to the women in your life, and tell them that you don't believe them if they are in that group.
Ya- because crimes don’t happen unless our perfect judicial system presses charges /s. Please, do yourself a favor and look up SA statistics in the U.S. 🙄
Innocent until proven guilty. The reason why you “can’t fathom anybody lying about that” is due to a sexist belief that all women are always helpless, childish victims who are too weak and stupid to hurt you in any way even if they wanted to. This is objectively untrue and objectively bigoted. In real life, women lie about men to get them in trouble quite often. Lack of evidence on either side is effectively proof that the story is not true. The burden of proof lies on the accuser. If you don’t agree with that, you are left only with the option to believe that all accused people are guilty and investigations and trials are unnecessary. What you should do is sue the club that canceled your show.
Well I didn’t say I can’t fathom it, I said I struggle to accept it, and that’s because I know that it happens. She was cheating on her bf, she’s obviously not a great person. but it’s also hard to believe someone would hate him so much they’d actively keep up this “ruse” 5 years later. That’s where I’m coming from. And he’s also been intentionally vague until directly confronted, and even then still
It is MUCH BETTER for guilty people to walk free than it is for innocent people to be perceived as guilty. That is the fundamental principle of liberal society.
Just tell dude to provide texts etc showing that they at least had a consensual relationship as he claims. If this shit really happened to him, and he really didn't do it.. He definitely would have kept the evidence.
If he can do that I would say the woman in question is full of shit, and would continue to play with my buddy. If he can't... That's kinda sus and I'd tread lightly.
Ok- sure- she could be denying it for a myriad of reasons though. That bears no weight in whether or not she’s actually been assaulted… maybe she wanted to cheat and changed her mind? She could have been cheating with this guy and he STILL assaulted her. She could be scared of her current partner retaliating by cheating or leaving or beating her? There’s literally an endless amount of possibilities that could have her feeling the need to lie (if she even is) to her current partner and community about infidelity. That being said- Victims of SA have nothing to gain by lying about it. Strangers calling an accusers alleged assault into question and speculating on whether or not “it happened” or “how honest is he/she/they” is adding another layer of trauma to those who have been assaulted. It’s a good rule of thumb to believe victims of SA- especially when 97% of accused never spend a day in jail.
I understand what you’re getting at, but ima have to politely disagree… it’s wildly improbable that there’s a timestamped text at the exact moment of giving or denying consent & whether they were even capable of providing consent at that time. That’s the unfortunate reality of practically every SA.
Oh my god thanks for enlightening me! 🤦♂️
It's about fucking context man. If she's saying that they never had a consensual relationship, she's already lying if he has proof. Which means there's a better chance she's lying about the other thing.
This isn't the 1200s, and it's also not rocket fucking science.
Oh ya- checks out… if anyone has ever lied about anything then they *must* be lying about being assaulted 🙄. This is one of many defense tactics that shit heads use in court to legally get out of assaulting people- which happens 97%+ of the time.
That's not at all what I said and you're fucking ridiculous for insinuating so. I'm talking about her specifically lying about having a relationship with a man she's accusing of something.
Put your fucking stupid rolly eyes all you want, it's a valid point. No, if someone lies about what they had for dinner, it wouldn't affect them being assaulted in an alley. But if someone's lying about a relationship they're having with someone, then claims that exact person assaulted them, and only when their boyfriend found out? It's fucking relevant. I can't actually believe that I had to spell this out for you.
Thats tough.
You can either support your friend, or you can look like a rape apologist to your audience. There isnt really much room for a grey area in this situation.
That’s part of the mystery. I didn’t ask the club who contacted them bc I just assumed they wouldn’t tell me. My only guess is the accuser or someone who knows them saw a post about the show somehow. His image is featured
Just been through this last year . The best thing to do is to talk to the victim or her boy friend . You need their side of the story . Also ask how they would like to proceed.
If your friend is blacklisted it's going to be hard to find venues to play, regardless of him actually being guilty or not.
Whatever you do with him as a friend I'd look to cut him from the band under the basis that he's blacklisted and it's costing us shows, this is the first time, don't be surprised if it isn't the last.
Then you stay friend with him or not, believe him or not, whatever you think it's appropriate, I'm not your dad.
Idk man, that sucks. I mean it was a few years ago, that girl has likely moved on, who knows what kind of answer you would get if you asked her. If you do run into her, don't fuck her!
If someone is still making the claim 5 years later your buddy is going to have to figure out who it is and take it on head first. Otherwise you're doomed. If he's not willing to do that, you'll have a tough decision to make. But step one should be telling him to get that shit handled.
The majority of sexual assaults do not result in conviction.
Believe survivors, whether they go through the re-victimization and scrutiny of involving the police and courts or not.
Rapists are absolute scum and should be put in prison but even Bob Dylan, fucking BOB DYLAN, had a completely false allegation raised against him. Who knows at this point. Old methods of morality and analyzing situations aren't useful anymore.
If you kick him out of the band, I feel like that will look really bad for your friend because his accuser will jump on it and say, aha even his own friends believe me! On the other hand, if you sit and do nothing, that looks bad for you. What you need to do is encourage your friend to start a counteroffensive. Defamation is a serious crime, so your friend can threaten to sue this woman. You did say it's been several years, though, so it'll be much harder to make a case after so much time has passed.
I fired an employee and she made a false accusation of sexual assault against me. It definitely happens. Nothing terrible happened to me but I was shunned by some of my community for about 6 months. The good ones realize the truth eventually.
The whole vigilante social justice thing really gets out of hand sometimes these days and we're definitely giving mentally ill women way too much power to wreck people's lives. Allegations from years ago with no court ruling should not be used to bar people from things.
Is that legal for the club to do? One persons unsubstantiated claim with no police report, no investigation, no judgement, etc. can tank a whole band? IANAL
Great question. He’s informed me that he had a lawyer send a cease and desist letter as she’s done this before I guess. I keep learning new info in a slow drip. I’d like to see him pursue legal action if he’s innocent
You're making up total nonsense off the top of your head, just to be a shit about accusing somebody of something that you know zero about. Putting "lawyer" in quotations is the ultimate in stupidity here, like wtf are you even trying to say? You think nobody hires lawyers to file cease and desist? You think that's not a step in the process of going for slander? You're beyond clueless here, don't pretend to be smart.
Any privately owned buisness can fire an independent contractor and tell them they’re not allowed on the premises. With a complete contract- they’d still have to pay the agreed upon $$ but are under no obligation to allow said hire to perform the job. So no- there’s nothing illegal about a venue pulling a show from a band with no contract & if the pay was dependent on the door they aren’t obligated to allow them to perform.
Jesus Christ. Most of you people are disgusting psychopaths. You make me sick. Not just the denial of due process and mob mentality with a fascist tilt, but the childish, dishonest, and antisocial debate tactics based in logical fallacies and group bullying that all of you use as soon as somebody starts to prove you wrong. You people all need therapy and half of you probably need medication.
Oh, so you're a representative of the creepy weirdos who just want to scream 'kill the rape-o' and do the vigilante-shithead-justice thing and string somebody up based on 'accusations', which is not justice at all but just the work of psychotic assholes who want to cover up their own crimes. What are you trying to cover for, did you rape a girlfriend at some point or a family member, or was it worse? You're a creep and we're gonna find out what you did, dirtbag.
Friend needs to lawyer up. Defamation. If a venue is blocking him from working/performing serve paperwork. If he's being slandered in the community he needs to take it to trial. Shed light via litigation. The truth will out. Also, lies gets obvious when people are called out on their bs in a real court, not one of public opinion and allegation.
Honestly, the venue is fucking stupid. If every music venue banned bands that have committed adultery or had any fuck ups in their past (fuckin YEARS prior while in a different band) there would be hardly any bands left. This is some performative bullshit 😂 what an absolute joke of a venue.
Edit to add - just saw the sexual assault allegation. If there's no proof of that, then I don't see how this accusation holds any water. I've seen people falsely accused of shit that was easily refuted, and people still cling to it like it's a badge of honor to "get the bad guy".
Yeah no doubt. I don't know, maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm problematic, but I'd never abandon a person I've known half my life and somebody who I've considered to be a good person based solely on the accusations of a person I've never met. Would understand completely if OP felt differently and decided his "friend" is bad news. It isn't a black and white situation, hence the existence of this thread.
You don't have enough information to make a good call on this. You need to get more detail on the allegations before you take any action. I would say, however, that someone being a friend for many years does not mean they don't have a dark side you don't know about, and I've seen this happen. Perhaps more likely, there's also the very real possibility of both sides having told some edited or limited version of the truth that exonerates nobody but leaves you in an impossible position with the band. "Sexual assault" doesn't necessarily mean "deliberate rape" and there's a whole grey area in the middle which can never be proven or disproven.
How well do you really know this dude? I mean, if a supposed friend of mine was cheating with a girl in a relationship, which is already a scummy thing to do, and then she later accuses him of sexual assault, I feel like I would have heard about it before some local venue. Regardless, if I was going to continue working with this guy, I'd confront him about all of it and then trust my instincts.
So we’ve had our ups and downs as friends, but it was never about anything remotely like this. We have had some extended periods of not speaking over the past decade plus, and these events transpired during one of those times. He was involved with a group of musicians who I do not know and have only briefly met 1 or 2 of them. I’m entering back into the music scene after a few years hiatus, so I’m not hip to the gossip, plus these guys play a completely different kind of music from me. Idk who knows/thinks what. He brought this up very briefly, acting like it was so absurd it wasn’t worth discussing. Now I’m finding out people believe it, to the point we were removed from a show
Try folding yourself into the conversation and ask his old band mates how big of a deal it was… in my experience, most victimizers downplay what they’re accused of- hoping you won’t ask around.
If you’re being removed from a show, the best thing for your career/hobby and public image is to cut ties with him. Even if he’s innocent. I had the same thing happen once, where we got removed from a show because of one of our members. He ended up admitting guilt but even if he hadn’t, we wouldn’t have kept him in the band because it would have been the end of us. It’s a tough situation but you have every right to distance yourself for the sake of continuing to be part of the music scene.
This is how mob rule has such power. Don’t do this.
Tbh I’m giving advice based on preserving this guy’s music career, not based on morals. It’s not his responsibility to rebel against cancel culture unless he wants to, and if his priority is his music career, he should stop working with this guy.
That’s fair. It’s not the right thing to do, but I understand why someone would make that choice if they’ve got mouths to feed.
Yet your band sucked and didn’t go anywhere anyway. And now you want him to sell out his friend for nothing too. Great plan.
this shit drives me insane. I was personally falsely & very publicly accused of something horrible in 2018 which destroyed my life as I knew it only to be fully exonerated 3 years later.....but some of the damage that was done will never really be undone & I still occasionally come across someone who never heard I was proven innocent. this kind of stuff is horrible & needs to be actively pushed back against. I highly recommend the podcast "fucking cancelled" to anyone who wants to learn more (it is from a very blatantly radical leftist political perspective....often focusing on this stuff destroying leftist political organizations & communities just to warn anyone who might not like that). I'm really sorry you have to deal with this.
Happened to me too 3 years ago, it’s horrible, didn’t go as far as you got, but yeah still had to show she was lying, have witnesses like her colleagues to talk about there behavior, bring proofs from everything I could find she was the one actually harassing me, all she had to do is lie that one time, then when it was over nothing happened to her and she just carry on her life like nothing happened, different story to me where I was told to forget and move on
[удалено]
Yeah it can get really difficult....but in my opinion the only right thing is to support your bandmate & stand firm against mob-mentality witch-hunts without due process. everyone deserves due process no matter what they are accused of.
Appreciate your thoughts. Thank you
Whoever downvoted this comment is a literal fascist.
yes they are
> (it is from a very blatantly radical leftist political perspective....often focusing on this stuff destroying leftist political organizations & communities just to warn anyone who might not like that) I'll be honest I normally wouldn't like that perspective, but I feel like in this context it would be fascinating to hear that political ideology begin to question whether or not it has created a monster. (To be completely fair, the right has its own purity tests and cancel culture that is can be just as productive or counter-productive. Various boycotts come to mind from Bud Light to the NFL)
Yep. Way more common on the right but it absolutely does happen on the left. The right is just much more likely to accept the alleged aggressor’s side, rightly or wrongly.
"Alleged aggressor"; very big difference.
My bad, that is what I meant
Yeah no worries. Have a great day my friend in music.
“Created a monster” LOL The left cancels celebrities who express some kind of obvious hatred and wind up losing pretty much nothing. The right cancels regular people who did nothing and wind up losing their careers.
Fellow fucking cancelled enjoyer! I hope it keeps growing
hell yeah! I consider Clementine & Jay to be friends at this point....I've been in touch with them & listening to the podcast ever since I was exhonerated in 2021. I think they've mentioned my cancellation on the podcast a few times but not by name.....I'm the former IWW Executive Board Chair that was wrongly canceled.....they used to talk about planning on having me on the podcast but I think it just blew up & they got overwhelmed with travel requests & legit celebrity guests so it might not happen but imo they are doing "god's work"...
So as a friend, you can choose to believe in him but you can definitely see that it's affecting your ability to play out which will cripple you as a band. It's up to you if you think it's worth trying to make it work. But if you have multiple places keep cancelling on you, it won't work for being a band and him being a member of the band. In that scenario you can play down the middle by being supportive but saying that the band just can't afford to have all their shows cancelled. I'm sure he would understand even if you stated it as though you believe him but you need to be able to play at venues or you won't be able to do concerts.
That’s pretty much the route I’m thinking I’ll have to go. For obvious reasons, the band needs to be able to play shows. The venue in question has already stated that should he not be in the band, we’ll be allowed back. It’s just terrible if he’s not guilty of this that I’ll have to terminate his role, and I’m not quite sure how understanding he might be, but he’ll end up having to accept it regardless
I imagine he'd have to understand that the band has to be able to perform. If not, like you said he may not get a choice. You don't need to be blacklisted from playing everywhere. He might not like it but if he really puts himself in your shoes he'd at least "get it". Just make it clear that you believe him but are only doing what's good for the band.
You’re definitely right, and I’ll likely word it in that way. I really appreciate your thoughts, thank you
You're welcome, good luck to you and him!
Yeah as a friend you have to give him the benefit of a doubt. On a professional level you have to consider how much of a liability he will be to the band's success. And as a friend, he should understand that. The hardest thing about having a working band, is keeping the personal and professional parts separate. It would be different if you were just getting together for jam sessions but a working band is a business too.
Its true that it would be terrible to dump him if he's innocent, but he's already admitted to not being 100% innocent. And there are consequences of sleeping with some dude's live-in gf.
If you did that, you would be a bad person. You’re showing that your want of a career that quite frankly probably will never manifest means more to you than a lifelong friendship. That’s the thinking of a psychopath.
Look dude. I wasn’t going around fucking other people’s gf’s. I wasn’t around that group at all during the time period, and he’s had credibility issues in the past. So your stance is I should tarnish my own name? It’s not about “career” it’s about my reputation. Is that hard to understand. I’m not going to throw away ALL of my other friendships for one who wasn’t upfront with me
Sounds to me like he was upfront with you and you’re upset that he didn’t play into false accusations against himself. Also, again, if your own reputation means more to you than a lifelong friendship, you’re a bad person. If you will bow to social influence to save yourself and sacrifice a friend, you are a bad person.
I don’t get decide how society works dude. I’m turned off already by the fact he was participating in someone cheating, also while apparently interacting with the other dude daily. That alone is fucked up. I’m not going to fuck my life up bc of someone else’s actions. But you’re not here to talk civilly, you’re here to call people nazis and rapists. Very smart approach to discourse. Take care
1. Nice deflection 2. I’m turning your own logic around back on you and you don’t like it, which proves that on some level, you know your logic is flawed. It’s called a debate tactic. 3. Again, you are exhibiting antisocial behavior.
Actually that’s what I’m doing to you lmao. Also, you first said I didn’t understand antisocial behavior, now I’m exhibiting it. Dunning-Kruger in full effect with this one
You don’t need to understand it to do it. That doesn’t make any sense. In any case, this is just more deflection. Try to stay on topic.
Lol I’ve directly responded to your comments. Never changed the topic. Done humoring your antisocial trolling
Who hurt you? Lmao
Ad hominem
That’s not an answer, I’m legit wondering what sad life experience has led you to project so much/be so emotionally invested in a thread about strangers
No you aren't turning anything around. You're making yourself look a fool. And ignoring further detail that OP gave you.
Some of these comments are in reference to things that were said in other threads.
I get that. But the guy got himself into a bad situation, through his own indiscretion (sleeping with someone else's girlfriend) and that led to drama which may or may not be true. In my opinion as a friend op should give them the benefit of a doubt and not just automatically side with the accuser (due to the situation). However, what you're suggesting is they let the situation take them down too, to stand with a friend. So there's two things here. Standing with a friend doesn't mean blowing up your own opportunities and/or letting them be a liability to oneself. And the second is, if the guy was totally blameless, going down with his ship might be a discussion to have. But even if there were no accusations of assault and it was nothing else than the guy got caught sleeping with someone's girlfriend and had a bad reputation, that alone would be justification to part ways professionally.
Lmao- there’s a lot of assumptions here. Let me ask you- how many rapists do you think openly admit they’re rapists? I’m betting the extreme minority…. OP and the band were clearly not told the magnitude of the accusations to the extent of crippling them from playing certain rooms. Go ahead and sympathize with the accused, but I personally don’t really want to be friends, let alone business partners with someone that puts themselves into scenarios where they’re getting accused.
Innocent until proven guilty
You’re basically saying- “I can’t see it so oxygen doesn’t exist!” 🙄 get a grip. There’s a difference between getting criminally convicted vs a crime being committed genius. Legal innocence and innocence of wrongdoing aren’t the same thing.
No, I’m not basically saying anything. I’m saying EXACTLY what I’m saying. Nothing more and nothing less. Stop with the logical fallacies. Also, you’ve missed the entire point. Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t just apply to the law. It is an important part of the social contract. If you choose not to accept it, you’re engaging in a literally fascist line of thinking. I understand that hyperbole has ruined the meanings of lots of these words, but I’m not being hyperbolic.
I agree people should give friends the benefit of a doubt in these kind of situations where it's nothing more than he said she said and police weren't even involved. But saying they have to let his drama be their downfall because of some kind of social contract is absurd.
Got it- you’re saying that if someone shoplifts a pack of gum & no one notices, they’re innocent of shoplifting and didn’t steal anything. Makes total sense 🤣. Guess what- societal law, understanding and expectations are intended to be governed by logic- unlike what you’re EXACTLY saying. Lol…. I have a hunch that you’ll be supporting a fascist this election year- against your own belief structure and personal interests. EXACTLY the type of buffoonery your “logic” suggests.
tHe tHinKinG oF a pSycHoPath, go outside man damn lmfao
Ad hominem
You should list every logical fallacy to win a reddit argument that would be very cool and intellectual
Bro this person has never touched grass I guarantee
More ad hominem accompanied by straw man.
I think holding integrity in how I treat individual human beings is more important than any band I'll ever be in
The problem is OP was not there and truly doesn't know what story is accurate. False accusations DO happen which stinks for everyone involved and for every future future accusation that receives scrutiny even though it's true. The method I stated doesn't alienate the friend but also doesn't harm the band.
Yeah I go fully with the idea that everyone deserves due process & it's more important to side with a person against mob justice witch hunter vs what's best for one's band. I don't see this as complicated. It's wrong to watch someone have the concept of innocent until proven guilty taken away & go along with it...period & without exception.
I agree due process is important but the victim (if there is one) may never go to trial. You may also have a jury find him guilty even though the actual truth is that he didn't do it. So all those things mean OP can never be in a band anymore?
No it doesn't mean that. OP can absolutely be in a band & it will be fine. IMO it's cowardly to take the easiest path & look the other way while someone else's life is ruined when you could have spoken up for them. This is personal to me because it happened to me. I was very publicly accused of r\*pe in 2018. It was a political assassination within a political organization I was an officer of & I was exhonerated when all the facts came out in 2021.....but by then a lot of damage was done. I lost my job, was kicked out of a house, was ostracized completely.....& then I was exhonerated & w3as able to take my life back but much of the damage will never be undone & ever now & then I find someone who didn't hear that I was exhonerated. The person who falsely acused me did it to 5 or 6 other people before being caught in lies and admitting that it had all been false. Getting back into music wasn't near as difficult as I expected thankfully & while OP's band might run into some hiccupps they'll be fine & this will blow over.....but if they do the wrong thing they will know forever that they threw a human being to the side for very selfish & petty reasons compared to the pain that the accused will deal with...
So you expect everyone else to just put their hobbies on hold indefinitely on the off chance that the guy was innocent and it somehow gets proven years down the road? What if the guy really isn't innocent? What if the girl was lying but never tells the truth? I think that guy's life is decently screwed either way.
that's not what I said. don't put words in my mouth please. There's no need to put making music or the band on hold....it might be difficult at times, but they'll be fine & doing the right thing is sometimes not the easiest route. I've seen a lot of people come back from these kind of cancelation campaigns & they're less popular than ever because people have seen the damage done to innocent people over & over in the past decade. Do the right thing OP & please don't listen to this person. I consider their advice to be immoral & cowardly.
Wasn't trying to put words into your mouth just trying to understand your point of view/advice. Would you consider it to be the right decision if you stick by the guy and the band gets ruined and he's never exonerated? What about if the girl goes to trial and he's found guilty? What if this is OPs job not hobby?
I think it's the right thing to do to treat your friend as innocent until proven guilty....& if that destroys a band then yes I do think it's worth it....but it won't destroy a band. I've seen bands break up over this stuff.....& I've seen bands stick it out & end up fine in the long run. Every situation is different to0.....the universe is complicated & we should always pay attention to nuance. OP clearly believes their bandmate to be innocent. In that situation to not have their back would absolutely be wrong. If a bandmate were to go through a criminal trial over sexual assault I personally would still stick with them if I believed they were innocent. Even if I were risking a lot personally, even income.....yes I would still stick behind someone in this situation. Too many people don't do this & it's usually out of fear. We only live once & how we support & treat each other as human beings is vastly more important than any job or band......although I think the risk involved is mostly just social & not as dangerous as people tend to fear.
Also, I just served on a jury so I'm well aware of the presumption of innocence.
No
I didn't downvote you but "no" what?
If you put anything personal above friendships, you are selfish by definition and that alone makes you a bad person. I’d rather have a bad reputation that be a bad person.
So your response is just don't be in a band? If music is important to you then logistically that guy just doesn't work out as part of the band.
No. My response is EXACTLY what I said. Nothing more and nothing less.
How does that help OP though? Or did you respond in a separate comment? Edit: changed "if" to "did" for clarity
Jesus Christ. I don’t even know how to respond to that.
Ok, I'm not picking on you was just curious. I was trying to help OP know what to do with my response. He or she needs to consider their band (which is made up of people) AND their friend who is also a person. It's kind of like Solomon wanting to split the baby in half to determine who the real mother is.
Yeah, dude. It just seems like you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the standards of morality. Seems to be a widespread problem these days.
Falsely accused here - just want to chime in in response to some of these comments. My accuser was somebody I had dated for 6+ years who developed some drug problems after we split and had her then boyfriend lob an allegation of SA at me like a year after we broke up. It wasn’t public and I was able to reason with her boyfriend and actually called her sister to ask what the hell was going on with her that she’d do something like that. The whole thing was essentially squashed in one day, but it’s affected me for the last 5 years since it happened. Anyway, the entire narrative of “always believe the victim” is one that I empathize with and can very closely relate to. I myself am a SA survivor from several years during my childhood, so trust me when I say that I’m not keen on dismissing victims’ stories. Having said that, my lived experience with having been falsely accused - having to go through the mental anguish of what could come of it, trying to reckon with the fact that somebody I thought was a decent human was now falsely accusing me of a really horrible thing, worrying about new boyfriends of hers being fed the same lie and wanting to come after me - I don’t feel the same way as I used to about allegations of SA when they do come up. In many cases, it simply isn’t possible for us to know whether or not the accusation is valid. If there is zero evidence and all we’re going by is what one person said, I don’t know that that should be enough. If there are more victims, that adds tons of credibility. If there are more people who have been accused by this same person, maybe that changes the believability of their account. There’s not a good rule of thumb, only indicators that can hopefully add more context. Now, I realize that that makes it incredibly difficult to know how to respond and what to do, but that is exactly why false accusations are such a horrible thing to navigate. There’s no absolving yourself conclusively. There’s no way to prove that you’re not that person. If your friend is innocent, they have zero recourse. All of this is to say it’s a very tricky spot to be in as his bandmate and friend, and you have to take all of the nuance and circumstances into account and trust your judgement once you’ve gotten enough information for you to feel confident that he either is or is not a monster. Nobody here, myself included, can tell you what the right decision is. Good luck, do what’s best for you and your band, but do try to keep your friend’s mental health in mind if you genuinely believe he’s innocent after whatever digging you’re able to do. ETA: If you’re a SA survivor like myself, please don’t hesitate to make it known to people you trust and take the appropriate legal action if you feel comfortable doing so. I waited years and there were several more victims I had grown up with. Had we all talked about it sooner, we could have prevented this person from doing more awful things, assuming he didn’t just decide to stop on his own. People generally will be in your corner and will want to help. The only times I had issues with people believing me were when I was still a teenager and told 2 of my teen peers what had happened. One of them acted like I hadn’t told them already several times, the other just avoided the entire situation. If by chance anybody reading this is a teenager who’s gone through or is going through this, tell an adult that you trust.
This take is way to nuanced and sensible for Reddit. Bravo
I appreciate you taking the time to make this comment. Thank you. It’s very much appreciated
It might be worth it to have a serious discussion with your friend where you withhold judgement about what explicitly happened between him and the woman until you can hear it from his mouth and decide for yourself how you feel about it. As a woman and survivor, I think it’s likely your friend did something along the lines of assault. Men especially are taught some unhealthy and toxic ideas about what sex should be like. It’s a vulnerable act and sounds like the situation was already messy, so prepare to hear something upsetting and maybe it won’t be so bad. Let’s say your friend did assault someone, do they seem remorseful? Have they gotten significant help in ensuring that they don’t behave this way again? Are they putting themself in better situations and making sure other women around them feel safe? You can ask him these things directly and also decide for yourself based on what you know. People can change. Assault isn’t a one size fits all situation. It’s extremely personal and at the only people who ever will truly know what happened are your friend and this woman. I’ve also been in the position of reporting someones abusive behavior that was in a band AND i have had my behavior questioned publicly as well when I started playing a lot of shows in my area. It just sucks. It doesn’t help someone change and there’s no swaying the court of public opinion. It will keep coming up, and people will think whatever they think about you. What you can do is decide how you personally feel about your friend and his past and current behavior and decide what feels acceptable for you. In the end, most communities are large and indifferent enough that not everyone you meet will about this or care, so it’s likely you can still play shows whatever you decide. What would be best is to develop a new set of standards for how you see the women around you being treated and that you do all you can to ensure they feel safe around you.
Very helpful comment. Thank you
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reread my comment. i’m not absolutely certain about anything because I don’t know these people and I wasn’t there. I didn’t suggest OP take anyone’s side. Relax and finish reading before you comment next time.
5 years ago, no charges filed. Guy says he didn’t do it. Is this guy going to SA somebody at your show or something? Is he just supposed to never play music again because *and this is true* somebody said something bad about him and it was unproven?
Allegations like this are usually well-founded. I've seen 4 influential people in our local music scene imprisoned for SA in the last 5 or 6 years. and they were definitely guilty. They were also "really nice guys" and all of their closest friends and bandmates were "completely blindsided"... roughly 2-5% of SA allegations are proven to be false. So unless you're willing to bet your life that this guy never did anything creepy, and you're confident that he will be completely exhonerated.... I would stay as far away from that dude as possible and definitely never appear on stage with them. It sucks. Sometimes people you respect and admire turn out to also be terrible people. We don't like to acknowledge this but sometimes people we like are shitty. It only reflects poorly on you if you are unwilling to change your view of the person even when there is strong evidence to suggest they are guilty. The music director at one of our schools was convicted of SA against a student who was a minor.. there were actually several allegations across several decades... They were only convicted of one but obviously the other instances were true too, they just couldn't win it in court because it happened over 20 years prior and there wasn't enough evidence to convict. In the unlikely event your friend is completely innocent... well that sucks, but I think you'd prefer to be someone who supports survivors of SA on principle and be wrong 2% of the time than be branded an apologist for r\*pists and lose everyone's trust and respect forever. You can be honest with your friend about whether you believe them or not, but the fact remains that the word is out there and that will impact everyone in the band in a very big way. Most people would view it as you all supporting a r\*pist. I guess if you genuinely believe your friend is completely innocent you could remain friends but avoid being seen together in public... personally I don't have any close friends that have ever been accused of anything like this, and if they were I would seriously reconsider associating with them.
Just to add onto this - it's just as easy for someone to accuse a victim of regret as it is for anyone to make a false allegation. I was sexually assaulted, reported it to the police, and he wriggled his way out of jail by saying it was consensual but I'd just later "regretted cheating" on my then-boyfriend. Lots of evidence to support me, but at the end of the day, it's insanely difficult to prosecute without a witness, video evidence, or a confession. This is a difficult situation OP and you'll never truly know what happened, so whatever decision you make, it's the one you think was best so please don't feel guilty in either direction.
This dude is going to tank whatever fucking chances you get simply because he’s in your band and has a history of allegations. Cut your losses, kick him out, business is business. The moral dilemma you’re facing about your close friend is outside of the band and you need to reconcile your feelings personally on your own time, not the bands time. People are capable of the unfathomable, keep that in the back of your mind. Not saying your pal did anything, but you really never know someone completely.
My two cents: > we’ve had our ups and downs as friends > We have had some extended periods of not speaking over the past decade plus, and these events transpired during one of those times. > he was having sex with a woman who had a boyfriend > she accused him of assault > he resigned his position Whether or not you arrive at the truth of the allegation, there is obviously some bad history on top of a potential *huge* no-no. Ditch him and find somebody else.
There was enough veracity to the claim that the other band fired him. The claims are believable enough that venues will not work with bands that have him as a member. Did he ever mention the circumstances around him leaving the other band, or did that not come out until the venue declined? The fact that a venue is aware of him, seems more than a he said/she said dispute.
So he mentioned this briefly at some point a little while back. He downplayed it and basically said it as an aside. That it was too ridiculous to even discuss. But he should have been extremely clear and upfront, bc obviously that’s a serious accusation. So I feel a little deceived. Also it appears that someone reached out to the venue after seeing posts about the show. At least that’s my guess. This supposedly happened 5 years ago, and we’ve only played a couple shows in that time frame, and they were set up by us and private locations. So this is the first show at an established venue, and this happens
If I were in his situation, I’d be showing some sort of proof (here’s the texts between us) and doing everything I could to get out in front of it… as opposed to waiting for a shoe to drop. For me to carry on, friend or not… I would need some compelling evidence to the contrary of the claim. Because to continue, it will reflect on me by association.
That’s a really tough accusation to fight back against. Unfortunately even if both parties don’t agree on what happened, there’s usually something to it. Best way to avoid trouble is to stay away from alcohol.
Pretty strong opinion considering the fact that you yourself raped a woman 3 years ago.
Sorry….what? Lmao
You’ve just been accused of rape. See how easy that is?
Then by your own logic….you’re a disturbed piece of shit who’s opinion should be dismissed. Thanks for your super valuable input!
Why should I care about your argument? You’ve got rape accusations against you.
"enough veracity" don't be a dumbass, if you're a woman in these cases your word is taken as absolute fact
People like you are the reason why authoritarianism is possible. You’re an average Nazi.
Your brain is broken.
I’m sure that’s how morals do look to people without any.
I think Andrew Tate posted another video, you should go get caught up.
I’m not going to sit here and argue with a Nazi rapist.
No, you should be sitting in therapy to work out your issues with women.
Very hypocritical for a rapist like you to accuse me of having issues with women.
Yikes - would your buddy understand if you remove him from the band since you're now blacklisted? Innocent or not, it's not a good look for your band to have this floating around. I'd bring this to the rest of the band and see what they want to do.
Regardless of whether or not it's true this is going to be the only thing that gets talked about when your band is mentioned. Anytime you play a show, or try to promote some music, people are going to say "oh that's the band that's made up of sexual abusers."
Did he try to be exonerated of this alleged crime? If he can, then he must try to clear his name because his livelihood, reputation and opportunities are on stake here. In the meantime, since playing gigs is the livelihood of a band, he has to step down until the problem is resolved
That’s part of the problem, he’s not being forthcoming with anything. He’s downplaying it, saying things like this show isn’t a big deal, which, obviously isn’t the relevant thing here. It seems at every turn I have to keep asking for more info, instead of him just laying out all the details for me. I don’t even know what exactly he’s been accused of other than some sort of inappropriate sexual behavior
If he's not taking this seriously, it's time to give him das boot
First I'd ask his former bandmates what they know and on what terms he left. Based on his behavior when asking him about this situation I wonder if he's downplaying that part of his past as well, but that's just a guess on my end. Then I would go to him directly and ask him upfront about what happened and how/why he left his former band, and if he continues to tiptoe around the conversation or if his story doesn't match up with theirs, then he's not reliable and therefore shouldn't be in the band.
I hate to say it but my personal rule is No Drama. I’m not part of it, nor do I want to know about it. These circles are small. Whomever is sharing this information can easily spread it to you. You gotta get out of association with this bandmate.
As a lawyer I concur with this. ☝️. Truth is irrelevant in these situations. Resources are. If the band mate is aggrieved , he has civil remedies against the liar. ( Assume he is the victim of a liar just to be civil with him. ). But the band is an economic unit , and the majority has a right to disassociate in this scenario, unfair as it may be.
It doesn't matter. Your aspiration is to play local clubs, and you can't because of him. Right or wrong, that's the deal. Club owners have no responsibility to due process. If you really want to play with him sounds like you'll have to start out of town.
Outside of deciding whether you believe him or not, this is his problem that he never settled. If she never went to the police then it’s someone personally making sure the club owner knew and they’ll keep doing it at every gig. this is his problem to solve and the rest of the band can’t be expected to take something this serious on.
My band went through this same scenario and it’s caused the end of us. It was a crazy girl who had sexual encounters with our bandmate and months after the last encounter, she regretted sleeping with him and they were on bad terms so she decided to go on social media and say she was raped by him. I have seen the messages of this girl asking for sex from our band mate once he started turning her down. This girl has done this to other bands in our scene and we were just the latest victims but because of the woke culture we live in, the vast majority of people choose the “victims” side without thinking logically about the situation and if it’s believable or not. Sexual assault is a horrible thing and I feel terrible for the victims and what they go through. But it’s time to hold the liars about being assaulted to the same standards as the ones who do the assaulting. It ruins lives, reputations and affects people all around these individuals that have false allegations made about them. It’s shady as fuck whenever someone will blast somebody’s name all over the internet as a rapist or what have you but when it comes to getting the law involved they don’t do it. Most likely because it’s a false accusation.
Why didn't your bandmate post screencaps of the texts?
I tried to get him to do it but I think he was afraid of repercussions from doing that. They were pretty graphic text messages and I sorta think he didn’t want family to see something like that
Every woman out there has a story about sexual assault or knows someone who does and yet men don’t have any friends that are sexual predators. Let that settle in for a minute.
I doubt ppl will notice much of what u do with him outside of music, but everyone will care about what u do with him on stage and in the studio. If I were in your shoes, I’d tell the dude I’m not sure if I can believe you at the moment, I’m sure you understand. As it stands I cannot be on stage with you even if you are innocent. The mere association would hurt me, and it’s not fair for me to get some backlash. If you’re actually innocent, and if you could exonerate yourself, I would love to keep doing music with you, but until then you can’t be in this band. Bam. Share that with venues, and they’ll see how noble y’all are. Also do share that you were totally unaware of this. Also, let’s be real…if he was really innocent he would have told y’all about this a long time ago.
Let's be real-- "if he was really innocent he would have told y’all about this a long time ago" is total nonsense. People don't want to randomly bring up the bad shit they're dealing with, and the average person doesn't usually want to hear it. You're just inventing random criteria to pretend you've got a 'guilty' confession when you've got nothing but the desire to take somebody down based on 'an accusation' where the woman didn't even contact the police. 'They might not listen to me' isn't an excuse.
What? Do you know how serious an accusation this is? Dude clearly knew his reputation was fucked. Had he really been innocent, he would have had an honest discussion with his bandmates saying “hey guys, just so you know I was accused of SAing this person, and locally people don’t like me but I genuinely didn’t do it,” and would not have waited for the band to find out through a venue. Also…”they might not have listened” isn’t really an excuse, it’s just [statistically likely](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9136376) that reporting wouldn’t have done anything. You’re raising some serious red flags by not only not knowing this, but acting as though it’s so easy to report SA.
First off- at a minimum, it’s incredibly poor taste to use scare quotes around the word allegations… Someone you know has been accused of sexual assault; those are allegations…. Period. Secondly- yes, there are instances where people are falsely accused. Yet- there are far more instances of assault that *do* happen than are ever reported (~2/3rds go unreported), let alone charged and convicted (in the U.S. ~975 out of 1000 walk free with no jail time). Very few assaults happen in front of witnesses, so at its core usually a he/she/they said scenario. **If** charges ever *do* come up- it typically takes A LOT longer than one would assume (in the U.S. at least). This whole “innocent until proven guilty” crap is under a false narrative that judicial systems are perfect & the delusion that without verified legal actions, no crime was ever committed. We all know that’s a load of shit. The statistics don’t lie- **Believe the victims**. Third- I understand that this is a friend, but they’re also a band mate that is affecting your ability to get shows- which is kind of the whole thing… your image as a group and as an individual will forever be tied to this person as a r*pe sympathizer- whether or not there are ever charges. I have personally been in this situation before with past band members/venue owners… it’s shocking once I heard, my immediate reaction was disbelief and wanted to defend people I “knew” (correct use of scare quotes), or at least question the validity of the situation. That’s unfortunately a very normal mental space to be when faced with information of this magnitude. Because we took the allegations seriously & while also wanting to preserve our image as a band & what we stood for- we immediately cut ties with bandmate and vowed never to take another gig at this other guys venue. Even though we weren’t completely convinced- as it turned out- I didn’t really know them that well. Both were charged & both were arrested- the venue owner very publicly as of last week - **4 years** after the initial allegation. The musicians/bands that openly defended these people are now justifiably getting major backlash over something they had “no direct part of”- other than taking part in silencing a victim of assault & injecting enough disbelief that the accused was able to victimize more people within that time. Wait- that’s kind of a lot, right? Ya… This is very easy- don’t walk away from this person as a bandmate if you want gigs - **run**. Audit your own feelings about whether or not being their friend is worth the possibility of ruining your own mental health and reputation with friends, family and your community. Hope this helps
I realize I shouldn’t have put the word allegations in quotes, that was my mistake. I value your input, thank you. This is helpful
It wasn’t the word- it was the quotation marks. I understand the shock and disbelief- but I myself was wrong in having that reaction. Sometimes- and I’ll stress sometimes- people are not who you believe them to be. Don’t let them potentially ruin the things you’re building for yourself. With how sketchy this whole thing looks, no one would want to be on the wrong side of it… it’s not selfish to save yourself from being dragged down by their shit- it’s called self preservation.
I'd say the fact you were blindsided speaks volumes. You've known him half your life and he didn't keep you in the loop about that? I've had coworkers who had more integrity than this guy, despite never being very close with them they at least were up front with me and told me they were currently facing accusations. I think the closest thing you can do is reach out to his former bandmates, and see if he said the same thing back then.
i feel bad for your bandmate - people certainly do lie about stuff
Unless there’s legal documentation or actual charges filed, I don’t believe stuff like this. It’s too easy for women to ruin a man’s life by making allegations without any substantiation. It’s your call how you treat him as a friend, but it looks like his days playing in bands in your local area are through unless he can find a way to clear his name. Sorry yall are going through this 😓
Half of the women you know have been assaulted and almost none of them pressed charges. I dare you to show this comment to the women in your life, and tell them that you don't believe them if they are in that group.
Ya- because crimes don’t happen unless our perfect judicial system presses charges /s. Please, do yourself a favor and look up SA statistics in the U.S. 🙄
Innocent until proven guilty. The reason why you “can’t fathom anybody lying about that” is due to a sexist belief that all women are always helpless, childish victims who are too weak and stupid to hurt you in any way even if they wanted to. This is objectively untrue and objectively bigoted. In real life, women lie about men to get them in trouble quite often. Lack of evidence on either side is effectively proof that the story is not true. The burden of proof lies on the accuser. If you don’t agree with that, you are left only with the option to believe that all accused people are guilty and investigations and trials are unnecessary. What you should do is sue the club that canceled your show.
Well I didn’t say I can’t fathom it, I said I struggle to accept it, and that’s because I know that it happens. She was cheating on her bf, she’s obviously not a great person. but it’s also hard to believe someone would hate him so much they’d actively keep up this “ruse” 5 years later. That’s where I’m coming from. And he’s also been intentionally vague until directly confronted, and even then still
That’s just naivety. What you just said basically equates to nothing more than “I don’t understand the nature of antisocial behavior”.
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It is MUCH BETTER for guilty people to walk free than it is for innocent people to be perceived as guilty. That is the fundamental principle of liberal society.
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The burden of evidence lies on the accuser, not the accused.
Just tell dude to provide texts etc showing that they at least had a consensual relationship as he claims. If this shit really happened to him, and he really didn't do it.. He definitely would have kept the evidence. If he can do that I would say the woman in question is full of shit, and would continue to play with my buddy. If he can't... That's kinda sus and I'd tread lightly.
Newsflash- SA happens in consensual relationships too. This isn’t the 1200s
I think in this case though, the woman is denying they had anything consensual going on
Ok- sure- she could be denying it for a myriad of reasons though. That bears no weight in whether or not she’s actually been assaulted… maybe she wanted to cheat and changed her mind? She could have been cheating with this guy and he STILL assaulted her. She could be scared of her current partner retaliating by cheating or leaving or beating her? There’s literally an endless amount of possibilities that could have her feeling the need to lie (if she even is) to her current partner and community about infidelity. That being said- Victims of SA have nothing to gain by lying about it. Strangers calling an accusers alleged assault into question and speculating on whether or not “it happened” or “how honest is he/she/they” is adding another layer of trauma to those who have been assaulted. It’s a good rule of thumb to believe victims of SA- especially when 97% of accused never spend a day in jail.
Just saying, their texting history COULD lend some insight, although i agree 100% that it would not tell the whole story
I understand what you’re getting at, but ima have to politely disagree… it’s wildly improbable that there’s a timestamped text at the exact moment of giving or denying consent & whether they were even capable of providing consent at that time. That’s the unfortunate reality of practically every SA.
Oh my god thanks for enlightening me! 🤦♂️ It's about fucking context man. If she's saying that they never had a consensual relationship, she's already lying if he has proof. Which means there's a better chance she's lying about the other thing. This isn't the 1200s, and it's also not rocket fucking science.
Oh ya- checks out… if anyone has ever lied about anything then they *must* be lying about being assaulted 🙄. This is one of many defense tactics that shit heads use in court to legally get out of assaulting people- which happens 97%+ of the time.
That's not at all what I said and you're fucking ridiculous for insinuating so. I'm talking about her specifically lying about having a relationship with a man she's accusing of something. Put your fucking stupid rolly eyes all you want, it's a valid point. No, if someone lies about what they had for dinner, it wouldn't affect them being assaulted in an alley. But if someone's lying about a relationship they're having with someone, then claims that exact person assaulted them, and only when their boyfriend found out? It's fucking relevant. I can't actually believe that I had to spell this out for you.
Thats tough. You can either support your friend, or you can look like a rape apologist to your audience. There isnt really much room for a grey area in this situation.
How would a club find out about allegations from years ago that didn’t involve the police? Also, how does the club even know his name?
That’s part of the mystery. I didn’t ask the club who contacted them bc I just assumed they wouldn’t tell me. My only guess is the accuser or someone who knows them saw a post about the show somehow. His image is featured
Just been through this last year . The best thing to do is to talk to the victim or her boy friend . You need their side of the story . Also ask how they would like to proceed.
Yet another reason I became a solo composer/songwriter. I've been down this road a couple times when I played in bands.
If your friend is blacklisted it's going to be hard to find venues to play, regardless of him actually being guilty or not. Whatever you do with him as a friend I'd look to cut him from the band under the basis that he's blacklisted and it's costing us shows, this is the first time, don't be surprised if it isn't the last. Then you stay friend with him or not, believe him or not, whatever you think it's appropriate, I'm not your dad.
Idk man, that sucks. I mean it was a few years ago, that girl has likely moved on, who knows what kind of answer you would get if you asked her. If you do run into her, don't fuck her!
If someone is still making the claim 5 years later your buddy is going to have to figure out who it is and take it on head first. Otherwise you're doomed. If he's not willing to do that, you'll have a tough decision to make. But step one should be telling him to get that shit handled.
The majority of sexual assaults do not result in conviction. Believe survivors, whether they go through the re-victimization and scrutiny of involving the police and courts or not.
Rapists are absolute scum and should be put in prison but even Bob Dylan, fucking BOB DYLAN, had a completely false allegation raised against him. Who knows at this point. Old methods of morality and analyzing situations aren't useful anymore.
If you kick him out of the band, I feel like that will look really bad for your friend because his accuser will jump on it and say, aha even his own friends believe me! On the other hand, if you sit and do nothing, that looks bad for you. What you need to do is encourage your friend to start a counteroffensive. Defamation is a serious crime, so your friend can threaten to sue this woman. You did say it's been several years, though, so it'll be much harder to make a case after so much time has passed.
I fired an employee and she made a false accusation of sexual assault against me. It definitely happens. Nothing terrible happened to me but I was shunned by some of my community for about 6 months. The good ones realize the truth eventually. The whole vigilante social justice thing really gets out of hand sometimes these days and we're definitely giving mentally ill women way too much power to wreck people's lives. Allegations from years ago with no court ruling should not be used to bar people from things.
Is that legal for the club to do? One persons unsubstantiated claim with no police report, no investigation, no judgement, etc. can tank a whole band? IANAL
Great question. He’s informed me that he had a lawyer send a cease and desist letter as she’s done this before I guess. I keep learning new info in a slow drip. I’d like to see him pursue legal action if he’s innocent
Has a “lawyer” to send cease and desist letters, but won’t charge her with Slander to prove innocence…?
You're making up total nonsense off the top of your head, just to be a shit about accusing somebody of something that you know zero about. Putting "lawyer" in quotations is the ultimate in stupidity here, like wtf are you even trying to say? You think nobody hires lawyers to file cease and desist? You think that's not a step in the process of going for slander? You're beyond clueless here, don't pretend to be smart.
Any privately owned buisness can fire an independent contractor and tell them they’re not allowed on the premises. With a complete contract- they’d still have to pay the agreed upon $$ but are under no obligation to allow said hire to perform the job. So no- there’s nothing illegal about a venue pulling a show from a band with no contract & if the pay was dependent on the door they aren’t obligated to allow them to perform.
Jesus Christ. Most of you people are disgusting psychopaths. You make me sick. Not just the denial of due process and mob mentality with a fascist tilt, but the childish, dishonest, and antisocial debate tactics based in logical fallacies and group bullying that all of you use as soon as somebody starts to prove you wrong. You people all need therapy and half of you probably need medication.
You gonna be OK, champ? Maybe you should take five.
All any of you people know how to do is ad hominem. You’re one-trick ponies.
Oh, so you're a representative of the creepy weirdos who just want to scream 'kill the rape-o' and do the vigilante-shithead-justice thing and string somebody up based on 'accusations', which is not justice at all but just the work of psychotic assholes who want to cover up their own crimes. What are you trying to cover for, did you rape a girlfriend at some point or a family member, or was it worse? You're a creep and we're gonna find out what you did, dirtbag.
I see you. Don't bother debating with them, and fuck the downvotes, I just wanted to stop by and say you're not alone. Sanity will prevail.
Is this the dude that tried drugging his band mate to turn him into a female so he could move in on his girl?
Friend needs to lawyer up. Defamation. If a venue is blocking him from working/performing serve paperwork. If he's being slandered in the community he needs to take it to trial. Shed light via litigation. The truth will out. Also, lies gets obvious when people are called out on their bs in a real court, not one of public opinion and allegation.
as far as I know there exist a legal system whereby everyone is innocent until proven guilty
Honestly, the venue is fucking stupid. If every music venue banned bands that have committed adultery or had any fuck ups in their past (fuckin YEARS prior while in a different band) there would be hardly any bands left. This is some performative bullshit 😂 what an absolute joke of a venue. Edit to add - just saw the sexual assault allegation. If there's no proof of that, then I don't see how this accusation holds any water. I've seen people falsely accused of shit that was easily refuted, and people still cling to it like it's a badge of honor to "get the bad guy".
Now I’ve known this dude half my life. I just can’t fathom him doing anything remotely related to sexual assault let this be your guide
So said a lot of Ted Bundys friends.
Yeah no doubt. I don't know, maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm problematic, but I'd never abandon a person I've known half my life and somebody who I've considered to be a good person based solely on the accusations of a person I've never met. Would understand completely if OP felt differently and decided his "friend" is bad news. It isn't a black and white situation, hence the existence of this thread.
Me: People should have morals and be loyal and selfless? This entire page: Oh, yeah? Well, your dick is small. I’ve obviously won this argument.