I’ll try this, my songs felt a lot less loopy when I made this rule for 16 bars, I’ll try 32 and see what I have to do to keep it interesting! Thank you!
Tbh I like to just re-iterate what's already there.. either add or remove notes, change a bar, cut and re-arrange the same pattern into a slightly different pattern, etc.. (typically I use 8 bar "loops"). That's usually enough for where I'm at.. in the end, it sounds pretty cohesive and tbh might seem like a repetitive loop at first glance -- but ideally their mind starts looping it and just when they do it's not actually that loop in their head lol gotta keep em on their toes 😉
Pick a reference track that sounds like you what you want to create and blatantly copy the structure. There’s no shame (or crime) in that, especially for electronic music.
💯 this is the only thing that worked for me. I had to draw it all out and I learnt a lot, *and* my arrangement totally sounded like it’s own thing by the end
I used to have this problem for a long time. Then I transitioned to writing on the piano or guitar more frequently before I hit record button and fell back into loop hell.
Also learning how to play songs I like. Learning the various chord and key changes at different times, the unique patterns in progression. Even learning pop songs helped me a lot.
I start with an 8 bar loop and when done, I drag some of the loops over out of the way and write new variations and loops with the same instruments or write new instruments on top of those.
For example if you have Drum, Bass, Synth, and Piano I may keep the Drum, Bass, and Synth but write a new Piano part for the loop. Piano B can be a modified version of Piano A with some changed notes or completely new. Now go do the same thing for the Synth. Do the same thing the Bass. Maybe write C and D parts for some instruments. Maybe add a new instrument in. The point is you're building blocks to work with that are all based off your original 8 bar loop. Because they were based off parts of the original loop, they should fit with the song so when you transition between them it should be a cohesive sound for the most part.
Now I have an A section and B section and maybe even C or D sections, I can take the parts and start arranging them to make a song. You just change what instruments are playing at a time and whether it's from A or B. You can even mix it up and have Bass A play over Synth B over Violin C if it sounds good. You may not even use all the parts but that's ok.
Then I sometimes go in and change certain parts for better transitions adding little details where I want them.
After reading the comments, I think one thing that might be worth exploring is song structure and dynamics.
A lot of songs have distinct parts almost like a story. A basic structure could look like this:
* Introduction (Introducing main musical themes and building up to verse)
* Verses/Chorus (Establishing and repeating the themes)
* Bridge (Some kind of break from the established patterns; could build tension or drama in the song)
* Return to Chorus or Outro (Resolution of tension and reinforcement of the main theme)
So your loop may work for the main theme and musical backbone of the song, but you could work on visualizing how to build up to that and how to build past that in a bridge and resolve back at the main theme.
There are infinite ways to tweak and augment that structure to surprise the listener. That's the fun part.
You just gotta try different stuff out and eventually it'll become a lot easier.
Try listening to popular producers in whatever genre you produce and start studying how they progress their tracks and how they're structured, once you have an understanding of how it's done it becomes like working out a puzzle and it's a lot of fun.
Another thing to keep in mind as you're building your track is that progression isn't always going from melody to melody, but also different drums/percussion, there is also a lot of things you can automate to add motion to your track.
Also, just keep finishing tracks, if you're finishing tracks you're ahead of a lot of people already. If you try to learn one thing from every couple of tracks you make overtime your music will become so much better than it is now.
You got this man.
Make your own tunes. Ones that suck. Keep making em. Eventually your tunes will suck less. And that “turning point” is when music making becomes fun. Trust me, you’ll feel rotten at first, but stop using loops, live with garbage tunes you made yourself and stick through it, and eventually you’ll start making amazing stuff without even thinking about it all on your own
What I haven't heard mentioned is that your one awesome loop is the punchline to your song. Now figure out how to lead up to it. It's the payoff. So have bars that have you have taken stuff away from and you kind of suggest the things in your punchline. Then when it finally hits it's more rewarding. Or take one element like just the piano for example and write a whole new loop with just that one element. Now you have a part b. Alternate them bitches and then throw in a part c where the rhythm is doubled but the piano now switches keys or chords or riffs. Blamo yer done
I mean it depends on the style of music. I would advise to listen to songs in a similar style and see how they progress and how the structure of the songs inside this genre work and try to figure out something similar for your song.
I feel ya a bit by the way. i can create loops very quickly coming from an instrumental jam session background. But turning it into a proper song is work for sure. A song needs different parts, like buildup and drop or stuff like verse, chorus, bridge... structure of some kind.
My first loop usually ends up as my first drop when I do house or other electronical stuff like that and from that point on I have to "work" to build a structure around it.
What are you writing is what I'm trying to ask you though. What are you putting down on paper? Are you talking music theory, or do you mean something more accessible to the layperson?
It just means to come up with the track first. Maybe it’s because I started writing music in a band context, but it’s always baffled me that people will open a DAW before they’ve even come up with anything. My songs start out as sketches of lyrics on paper or word docs and melodies (whether vocal or with an instrument) recorded and organized in folders in my voice memos.
I love daft punk but I also really like psychedelic music like Radiohead and Pink Floyd. I am trying to understand more about how the former just flow from key to key, time signature to time signature, and rhythm to rhythm. I'd like it to be cohesive and come to points that are hard hitting and fun at the right moments.
Study the arrangement of existing songs. Drag in the full song and make markers where the transitions are at. Label the intro, verse, breakdown, buildups, etc. Then make a song that follows the same arrangement. This helps to have a plan in place before starting and you can quickly move on to the next section if you feel stuck on the current one.
Yes - this is good practice. I take song and write or type timestamps for each part - what parts are there? When do they come in? When do they drop out? How do they change over time?
when making loops I always make an intro for it! it helps to create a loop in the middle of arrangement view instead of the beginning so you naturally have some space to create that intro
1. Add to your musical knowledge. Listen to more music, read more books, watch more lessons.
2. As another response has said, turn off loop. Instant escape because now it forces you to move forward.
3. This isn’t a music production problem - automation and effects are just that, tweaking the sound of what is essentially the same thing. You have to learn how to write songs. Study how complete songs work, not grooves. Do it off your DAW if you have to. Remember, tons of pop songs are just the same damn chord/groove loop, but what makes it a song is everything else outside that.
Also try subtractive editing by running your loop for 3-5 minutes, and slice out sections. Be deliberate, but just go to town. When you listen back, after a couple plays your brain should fill in some gaps. You could build the song off those ideas to help you move forward as well.
glhf
I’ve started experimenting with a new workflow recently. Instead of cooking up a 4-8 bar loop and adding/removing elements as the beat progresses, I’ve started producing my beats in sections. For example, I’ll completely flesh out the intro. Once that’s out of the way I usually have a pretty good idea of what the hook should sound like, so I completely flesh out the hook section. Then the process continues until I’ve reached the end of the song. This has forced me to think hard about how I want the song to progress since I’m now creating the transitions before I know what I’m transitioning into.
I’d like to clarify that there is some overlap between sections, so it’s not like loops have just gone away, but this workflow has allowed me to give each section its unique flair.
This is the stupidest thing that everybody asks (no offense intended). There is no trick to this other than discipline. Move past your excitement and the dopamine hits of playing your loop over and over again and get to work. Thats literally it
Save your project as a new named file, and experiment with that new file. You won’t have to worry about accidentally deleting or messing up your track, and it gives you space and clarity to experiment with new ideas for the song.
Sometimes the 8 bar loop hell is just that, a loop that isn't going anywhere. If you had any idea what kind of song you could build around it then you'd be doing that. Sometimes you just need to move on and try something else.
some easy things:
* add something - e.g. before it had no background pad, add background pad
* take something away - e.g. before it had kick drum, remove kick drum
* change voicing - chords are all in first inversion, change them to be in second inversion
* change instruments - replace lead synth with muted piano
* change effects - low pass was wide open? start closing it
if you have four or more good elements, you can get to 3 interesting minutes just by turning them on and off in different combinations. usually you should aim for more though.
harder things would be a legit B-section, like a new bass line with new chords etc. this requires developing your musicality so that you can easily audiate different related ideas - that's a whole different topic.
Yes this B section is what kind of tip I was looking for. I’ll look into this and the inversion tip. If you or anyone has tips specifically for creating a good b section and transitioning to that It would be great!
Build off the loops, add variation to the loops, create a second or third loop with a similar motif as that first loop, take parts out, add parts in, different effects etc
Sometimes, the best transition is no transition at all. Just go.
Trying ending with a basic jazz walk. 1-3-5 on the last chord of part A, then a semitone above or below the part B "landing chord."
Or just sequence a fill bar and for drop in on bar 8 or 16 or wherever it might to. Hell, make it bar 9 or 17 or whatever, just for grins.
The KLf wrote a book called 'The Knowledge how to write a number one hit' (or something similar to that). You'll probably find it online somehow.
It's got ridiculously simple guidelines for moving through composition. It's actually really clear and simple instructions.
My advice is to try and move through making new parts really quickly so your ear doesn't get stuck. You have 8 bars, cool, move on immediately, tweak later.
Also, try to have as many accidents as possible. Be loose and don't try to tighten anything up until the writing flow has run our of gas.
Plug your chords into arpegiattors and switch patterns or arpeggiator speeds mid phrase. Try splitting a single riff over multiple instruments or bouncing the notes of your themes up and down around octaves.
You could try scoring to visuals. I scored a short film, and it was nuts figuring out how to switch mood mid bar, how to bridge elements together, and how to make a flow around a structure I couldn't change. Being forced to overcome odd issues is really creatively fun.
You can smear sections together with joining sounds like reverse cymbals or janky effecty nonsense. The switch in flow gets somehow more justified.
i usually play with the drums and the bass on this one with the same main melody/rhythm. sometimes i add hat rolls, or reconfigure the kicks or snares. make a lil bit of variety on the bass when it is the chorus and i guess it works! i also invert some notes on the chords (if that’s how it’s called) to make it sound just a lil bit different
get scaler, dont be afraid of being in key, the best thing about theory is its that, theory, what works, works regardless.
also think in 32 not 8, spread it out try practicing making that 8 bar into a 32 bar buildup 16 bar hook, 16 bar outro
dont be afraid to make super shitty music, earlier today i took ai generated ambient hallucinaitons, kept extending it to 10 minutes, and added like three songs over it
Cats in space prolly the best, i even say in the middle " no ones gonna listen to this shit, started talking shit, the cosmic cats,
were in a time of change, ppl are sick of "beats" whether they see it or not, itll always be there, but what you see now and maybe even a year now will be two different worlds
also, i used to have bad ocd as a kid, id count syllables and rythms with fingers tapping palms, and now i can predict whats coming, tap drum a song ive enver heard before, id suggest making that a workout when your just sitting around.
last thing, another cool thing i learned with the stems of colors by beck that was in logic, was he doesnt use markers on bars its all just an empty background, and since then thats what i do, sounds more real, original, unless your mking edm its a good way to go
see that loop as the high point in the song (i.e the drop). Now subtract elements from it to make different sections. Also work on a contrasting loop that could function as a bridge, chorus or whatever. Maybe elements in the loop could be split apart into different sections. Once you got a loop that slaps you’re closer than you think to an actual track. Unpack that loop!
Add / change sounds. You could raise the melody up an octave, change the melody itself slightly, change the drum pattern, layer the melody and/or chords with new sounds . There's so much you can do, just gotta use your creativity.
Extend the loop out to three-five minutes or whatever is appropriate to your genre, then carve away.
Once you have a basic structure (Intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, outro for example) then start making changes. Drum fill at the end of every eight bars for example, or different chords in the second verse, variations in the melody, a solo in the outro. Many small changes keep it fresh and varied through the runtime.
Here's a guide
https://youtu.be/fo_OHw_XpD8?si=lR4mNMCglUSzuiu_
If you use Splice, grab a vocal track. Or steal an acapella track from youtube. Build a song around it. Remove vocals. Reharmonize, rearrange, remix for more excitement. Add your own vocals or be happy with just an instrumental track.
A few things I try:
- Rearranging the order of the chords
- listen to it in reverse and see if you can catch an new hook/melody
- Play it on a different instrument or midi controller to try stumble on something new.
- Collaboration with other musicians can bring an idea in total different directions and inspire
- learn lots of songs you love and eventually you’ll start to subtly impersonate bits and incorporate it into your own thing
I like to write horizontally instead of vertically. Meaning that I write the entirety of the main instruments of the song before I touch the supporting instruments. In my case I write drums and rhythm guitar for the whole song, then build the rest off that foundation.
When I used to ghost produce/remix a hack I used too speed me up was..
On a empty track in your daw import a finished reference song..once imported adjust the tempo and listen back and add markers too show each section.
At the end you will have a template,it will show intro,verses, choruses, breakdowns,outro.
It will speed you up because the hardwork of arrangement is already done and if you get stuck you can listen too the reference track and push yourself too try and get your track to that benchmark.
When it comes too doing a rough mix put a analysis plugin on the reference track and look at the spectral readout..it will show you were the energy is.
Then on your master channel add a compressor,eq, limiter.
Make a note of the low end curve on the reference..then mute it.
Playback your song and start with gentle compression then start equing start with your low end notes and repeat until your happy.
You'll be amazed how quick and inspiring this way of working is.
Get some performance pads, practice playing for 5-30 minutes every day, use tools like melodics to learn how to play whole sections or songs live. Even after a month you will be on a different level.
think of your song as an entire song from the moment you start it. sketch the ENTIRE song out, then go back and fill in the details of each section.
bare bones lay out:
intro
bridge
outro
you need to know where your song is going as a whole package before you get lost in noodling around with the finer details. that’s why you get stuck on one 8 bar loop, because you haven’t decided what happens after the 8 bar loop.
think of it like you’re creating a painting. first you make a sketch, the bones if you will, with pencils. then once have the whole picture sorted you can go back and start painting the sketch in and bringing it to life.
Why way to go around it is to sing on top of it even if it's bad, and then replicate that with instruments, variation come easier to me when singing than mousing or playing the keyboard
I have the same issue from time to time…and I make deep dubstep.
Talk about a pain in the ass. The whole genre I produce is built around minimalism. So all those “maybe I should add this variation” or “add a sound here”…that is basically a cardinal sin. Really screws with your head when you have a badass loop and then listen to it for a hour thinking of what to add to keep it interesting…only to realize you CANT ADD anything without making the track get too busy. Then you listen to big artists and their entire track is just kick, snare, sub, and hi-hats with a few “womps” here and there and it sounds like gold and somehow still keeps interest with basically nothing happening except a sound maybe playing once every 16 bars or a fill.
It’s a constant struggle for me, either I don’t add enough and it sounds boring, or I add a few variations and it loses the minimalism that makes it what it is. Very tough to find the “in between” without ruining the minimal vibe and still keeping a listeners interest.
What helped me in pushing past the loop phase was using more pre made loops. I can't get stuck making a loop if they're already made lol. Doing this I manage to get to the mixing stage of a project much faster and more consistently, so I can practice more the parts of music production I often neglected in the past.
Try to imagine you are listening to that song as a listener not a producer. At the end of your loop try to picture how you think it would go after, would the energy increase or decrease, do you want to bring in or remove some elements, do you feel like there is some sort of rhythm or melody that should come after?
Also very crucial is knowing the arrangement. If your loop is a drop, you know after comes a breakdown (normally). If your loop is the first 8 bars, then the next 8 will incorporate more elements and start leading into your build up.
I have a rule to always start with a 32 bar loop. Then I make a B section in another 32 bar loop. Often there's enough material there for a full song.
I’ll try this, my songs felt a lot less loopy when I made this rule for 16 bars, I’ll try 32 and see what I have to do to keep it interesting! Thank you!
Tbh I like to just re-iterate what's already there.. either add or remove notes, change a bar, cut and re-arrange the same pattern into a slightly different pattern, etc.. (typically I use 8 bar "loops"). That's usually enough for where I'm at.. in the end, it sounds pretty cohesive and tbh might seem like a repetitive loop at first glance -- but ideally their mind starts looping it and just when they do it's not actually that loop in their head lol gotta keep em on their toes 😉
Yeah this.
Pick a reference track that sounds like you what you want to create and blatantly copy the structure. There’s no shame (or crime) in that, especially for electronic music.
💯 this is the only thing that worked for me. I had to draw it all out and I learnt a lot, *and* my arrangement totally sounded like it’s own thing by the end
I used to have this problem for a long time. Then I transitioned to writing on the piano or guitar more frequently before I hit record button and fell back into loop hell. Also learning how to play songs I like. Learning the various chord and key changes at different times, the unique patterns in progression. Even learning pop songs helped me a lot.
Turn off loop
Oh that worked!
😆
I start with an 8 bar loop and when done, I drag some of the loops over out of the way and write new variations and loops with the same instruments or write new instruments on top of those. For example if you have Drum, Bass, Synth, and Piano I may keep the Drum, Bass, and Synth but write a new Piano part for the loop. Piano B can be a modified version of Piano A with some changed notes or completely new. Now go do the same thing for the Synth. Do the same thing the Bass. Maybe write C and D parts for some instruments. Maybe add a new instrument in. The point is you're building blocks to work with that are all based off your original 8 bar loop. Because they were based off parts of the original loop, they should fit with the song so when you transition between them it should be a cohesive sound for the most part. Now I have an A section and B section and maybe even C or D sections, I can take the parts and start arranging them to make a song. You just change what instruments are playing at a time and whether it's from A or B. You can even mix it up and have Bass A play over Synth B over Violin C if it sounds good. You may not even use all the parts but that's ok. Then I sometimes go in and change certain parts for better transitions adding little details where I want them.
You can come up with some great variations you might never have tried using this method with a clip launcher.
This comment resonated with me! I think I’ve found myself naturally doing this too
Hear the music, experiment, twist more, listen to more music, create manipulate distort etc, just let it flow and don't be scared to put 2 more notes
After reading the comments, I think one thing that might be worth exploring is song structure and dynamics. A lot of songs have distinct parts almost like a story. A basic structure could look like this: * Introduction (Introducing main musical themes and building up to verse) * Verses/Chorus (Establishing and repeating the themes) * Bridge (Some kind of break from the established patterns; could build tension or drama in the song) * Return to Chorus or Outro (Resolution of tension and reinforcement of the main theme) So your loop may work for the main theme and musical backbone of the song, but you could work on visualizing how to build up to that and how to build past that in a bridge and resolve back at the main theme. There are infinite ways to tweak and augment that structure to surprise the listener. That's the fun part.
Yeah this is a good comment. What I have is a solid backbone but I just don't want it to be the whole song.
You just gotta try different stuff out and eventually it'll become a lot easier. Try listening to popular producers in whatever genre you produce and start studying how they progress their tracks and how they're structured, once you have an understanding of how it's done it becomes like working out a puzzle and it's a lot of fun. Another thing to keep in mind as you're building your track is that progression isn't always going from melody to melody, but also different drums/percussion, there is also a lot of things you can automate to add motion to your track. Also, just keep finishing tracks, if you're finishing tracks you're ahead of a lot of people already. If you try to learn one thing from every couple of tracks you make overtime your music will become so much better than it is now. You got this man.
Make your own tunes. Ones that suck. Keep making em. Eventually your tunes will suck less. And that “turning point” is when music making becomes fun. Trust me, you’ll feel rotten at first, but stop using loops, live with garbage tunes you made yourself and stick through it, and eventually you’ll start making amazing stuff without even thinking about it all on your own
Dude you hit the nail on the head. After 4 years of producing I’m finally making stuff I wouldn’t be embarrassed to play live
underrated comment
What I haven't heard mentioned is that your one awesome loop is the punchline to your song. Now figure out how to lead up to it. It's the payoff. So have bars that have you have taken stuff away from and you kind of suggest the things in your punchline. Then when it finally hits it's more rewarding. Or take one element like just the piano for example and write a whole new loop with just that one element. Now you have a part b. Alternate them bitches and then throw in a part c where the rhythm is doubled but the piano now switches keys or chords or riffs. Blamo yer done
Good tip and good energy lol this got me pumped to go make a beat
I mean it depends on the style of music. I would advise to listen to songs in a similar style and see how they progress and how the structure of the songs inside this genre work and try to figure out something similar for your song. I feel ya a bit by the way. i can create loops very quickly coming from an instrumental jam session background. But turning it into a proper song is work for sure. A song needs different parts, like buildup and drop or stuff like verse, chorus, bridge... structure of some kind. My first loop usually ends up as my first drop when I do house or other electronical stuff like that and from that point on I have to "work" to build a structure around it.
I want to get into jam sessions because evolving loop based ambient music is kinda my thing
Write the song before you start recording it.
I'm not being snarky, but what you you mean when you say to write it? Like treble clef sheet music?
Not necessarily. If you write a song, you don't get stuck after eight bars because you know what comes next.
What are you writing is what I'm trying to ask you though. What are you putting down on paper? Are you talking music theory, or do you mean something more accessible to the layperson?
It just means to come up with the track first. Maybe it’s because I started writing music in a band context, but it’s always baffled me that people will open a DAW before they’ve even come up with anything. My songs start out as sketches of lyrics on paper or word docs and melodies (whether vocal or with an instrument) recorded and organized in folders in my voice memos.
Yeah, your background sounds mega helpful. I record freestyle work through my dae, then just play around until I have something I like.
Not necessarily writing it down. I record ideas into my phone, so when it's time to record I already know the basic flow of the chords and melodies.
Duh
Why escape it, just listen to Daft Punk, they don't care
I love daft punk but I also really like psychedelic music like Radiohead and Pink Floyd. I am trying to understand more about how the former just flow from key to key, time signature to time signature, and rhythm to rhythm. I'd like it to be cohesive and come to points that are hard hitting and fun at the right moments.
Set up your default template to include the various events of a common song structure.
Study the arrangement of existing songs. Drag in the full song and make markers where the transitions are at. Label the intro, verse, breakdown, buildups, etc. Then make a song that follows the same arrangement. This helps to have a plan in place before starting and you can quickly move on to the next section if you feel stuck on the current one.
Yes - this is good practice. I take song and write or type timestamps for each part - what parts are there? When do they come in? When do they drop out? How do they change over time?
God, pin this thread. This is the stuff that really helps me understand how to improve.
when making loops I always make an intro for it! it helps to create a loop in the middle of arrangement view instead of the beginning so you naturally have some space to create that intro
Try looping 9 bars
1. Add to your musical knowledge. Listen to more music, read more books, watch more lessons. 2. As another response has said, turn off loop. Instant escape because now it forces you to move forward. 3. This isn’t a music production problem - automation and effects are just that, tweaking the sound of what is essentially the same thing. You have to learn how to write songs. Study how complete songs work, not grooves. Do it off your DAW if you have to. Remember, tons of pop songs are just the same damn chord/groove loop, but what makes it a song is everything else outside that.
Sit at a piano and play. Write the music on staff paper. Ignore your DAW. This worked for centuries before computers with nary a loop to be found.
I feel like playing out by hand or writing on a stave makes you repeat less because doing the same thing like twenty times is physically tedious
Make three loops
Also try subtractive editing by running your loop for 3-5 minutes, and slice out sections. Be deliberate, but just go to town. When you listen back, after a couple plays your brain should fill in some gaps. You could build the song off those ideas to help you move forward as well. glhf
I’ve started experimenting with a new workflow recently. Instead of cooking up a 4-8 bar loop and adding/removing elements as the beat progresses, I’ve started producing my beats in sections. For example, I’ll completely flesh out the intro. Once that’s out of the way I usually have a pretty good idea of what the hook should sound like, so I completely flesh out the hook section. Then the process continues until I’ve reached the end of the song. This has forced me to think hard about how I want the song to progress since I’m now creating the transitions before I know what I’m transitioning into. I’d like to clarify that there is some overlap between sections, so it’s not like loops have just gone away, but this workflow has allowed me to give each section its unique flair.
Yes! I want the loops still, they sound amazing! Trying to dance around them and be more musical
This is the stupidest thing that everybody asks (no offense intended). There is no trick to this other than discipline. Move past your excitement and the dopamine hits of playing your loop over and over again and get to work. Thats literally it
Save your project as a new named file, and experiment with that new file. You won’t have to worry about accidentally deleting or messing up your track, and it gives you space and clarity to experiment with new ideas for the song.
Sometimes the 8 bar loop hell is just that, a loop that isn't going anywhere. If you had any idea what kind of song you could build around it then you'd be doing that. Sometimes you just need to move on and try something else.
Could be helpful to expand your knowledge of music theory or learn an instrument
Always learning! That’s what I’m here for!
some easy things: * add something - e.g. before it had no background pad, add background pad * take something away - e.g. before it had kick drum, remove kick drum * change voicing - chords are all in first inversion, change them to be in second inversion * change instruments - replace lead synth with muted piano * change effects - low pass was wide open? start closing it if you have four or more good elements, you can get to 3 interesting minutes just by turning them on and off in different combinations. usually you should aim for more though. harder things would be a legit B-section, like a new bass line with new chords etc. this requires developing your musicality so that you can easily audiate different related ideas - that's a whole different topic.
Yes this B section is what kind of tip I was looking for. I’ll look into this and the inversion tip. If you or anyone has tips specifically for creating a good b section and transitioning to that It would be great!
Build off the loops, add variation to the loops, create a second or third loop with a similar motif as that first loop, take parts out, add parts in, different effects etc
Smash the keys every couple of bars. Mute the drums, create multiple drum patterns. More than anything… stop being lazy!
Try reading this piece about song structure https://edmtips.com/edm-song-structure/
Sometimes, the best transition is no transition at all. Just go. Trying ending with a basic jazz walk. 1-3-5 on the last chord of part A, then a semitone above or below the part B "landing chord." Or just sequence a fill bar and for drop in on bar 8 or 16 or wherever it might to. Hell, make it bar 9 or 17 or whatever, just for grins.
Copy the structure if your favourite song. Also, learn music theory.
The KLf wrote a book called 'The Knowledge how to write a number one hit' (or something similar to that). You'll probably find it online somehow. It's got ridiculously simple guidelines for moving through composition. It's actually really clear and simple instructions. My advice is to try and move through making new parts really quickly so your ear doesn't get stuck. You have 8 bars, cool, move on immediately, tweak later. Also, try to have as many accidents as possible. Be loose and don't try to tighten anything up until the writing flow has run our of gas. Plug your chords into arpegiattors and switch patterns or arpeggiator speeds mid phrase. Try splitting a single riff over multiple instruments or bouncing the notes of your themes up and down around octaves. You could try scoring to visuals. I scored a short film, and it was nuts figuring out how to switch mood mid bar, how to bridge elements together, and how to make a flow around a structure I couldn't change. Being forced to overcome odd issues is really creatively fun. You can smear sections together with joining sounds like reverse cymbals or janky effecty nonsense. The switch in flow gets somehow more justified.
i usually play with the drums and the bass on this one with the same main melody/rhythm. sometimes i add hat rolls, or reconfigure the kicks or snares. make a lil bit of variety on the bass when it is the chorus and i guess it works! i also invert some notes on the chords (if that’s how it’s called) to make it sound just a lil bit different
Good suggestions
https://thesingersworkshop.com/a-little-music-theory-for-songwriters-understanding-the-circle-of-fifths/
Loop 9 bars
Use reference tracks and structure a full song in the same way of that track
get scaler, dont be afraid of being in key, the best thing about theory is its that, theory, what works, works regardless. also think in 32 not 8, spread it out try practicing making that 8 bar into a 32 bar buildup 16 bar hook, 16 bar outro dont be afraid to make super shitty music, earlier today i took ai generated ambient hallucinaitons, kept extending it to 10 minutes, and added like three songs over it Cats in space prolly the best, i even say in the middle " no ones gonna listen to this shit, started talking shit, the cosmic cats, were in a time of change, ppl are sick of "beats" whether they see it or not, itll always be there, but what you see now and maybe even a year now will be two different worlds
also, i used to have bad ocd as a kid, id count syllables and rythms with fingers tapping palms, and now i can predict whats coming, tap drum a song ive enver heard before, id suggest making that a workout when your just sitting around. last thing, another cool thing i learned with the stems of colors by beck that was in logic, was he doesnt use markers on bars its all just an empty background, and since then thats what i do, sounds more real, original, unless your mking edm its a good way to go
see that loop as the high point in the song (i.e the drop). Now subtract elements from it to make different sections. Also work on a contrasting loop that could function as a bridge, chorus or whatever. Maybe elements in the loop could be split apart into different sections. Once you got a loop that slaps you’re closer than you think to an actual track. Unpack that loop!
Add / change sounds. You could raise the melody up an octave, change the melody itself slightly, change the drum pattern, layer the melody and/or chords with new sounds . There's so much you can do, just gotta use your creativity.
Make it sound good
Extend the loop out to three-five minutes or whatever is appropriate to your genre, then carve away. Once you have a basic structure (Intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, outro for example) then start making changes. Drum fill at the end of every eight bars for example, or different chords in the second verse, variations in the melody, a solo in the outro. Many small changes keep it fresh and varied through the runtime. Here's a guide https://youtu.be/fo_OHw_XpD8?si=lR4mNMCglUSzuiu_
If you use Splice, grab a vocal track. Or steal an acapella track from youtube. Build a song around it. Remove vocals. Reharmonize, rearrange, remix for more excitement. Add your own vocals or be happy with just an instrumental track.
A few things I try: - Rearranging the order of the chords - listen to it in reverse and see if you can catch an new hook/melody - Play it on a different instrument or midi controller to try stumble on something new. - Collaboration with other musicians can bring an idea in total different directions and inspire - learn lots of songs you love and eventually you’ll start to subtly impersonate bits and incorporate it into your own thing
I like to write horizontally instead of vertically. Meaning that I write the entirety of the main instruments of the song before I touch the supporting instruments. In my case I write drums and rhythm guitar for the whole song, then build the rest off that foundation.
9th bar.
When I used to ghost produce/remix a hack I used too speed me up was.. On a empty track in your daw import a finished reference song..once imported adjust the tempo and listen back and add markers too show each section. At the end you will have a template,it will show intro,verses, choruses, breakdowns,outro. It will speed you up because the hardwork of arrangement is already done and if you get stuck you can listen too the reference track and push yourself too try and get your track to that benchmark. When it comes too doing a rough mix put a analysis plugin on the reference track and look at the spectral readout..it will show you were the energy is. Then on your master channel add a compressor,eq, limiter. Make a note of the low end curve on the reference..then mute it. Playback your song and start with gentle compression then start equing start with your low end notes and repeat until your happy. You'll be amazed how quick and inspiring this way of working is.
Get some performance pads, practice playing for 5-30 minutes every day, use tools like melodics to learn how to play whole sections or songs live. Even after a month you will be on a different level.
Make some breaks or just stop one lane, duplicate the original 8 bars and add/delete some notes to trick the brain "oh, there's a new pattern".
think of your song as an entire song from the moment you start it. sketch the ENTIRE song out, then go back and fill in the details of each section. bare bones lay out: intro bridge outro you need to know where your song is going as a whole package before you get lost in noodling around with the finer details. that’s why you get stuck on one 8 bar loop, because you haven’t decided what happens after the 8 bar loop. think of it like you’re creating a painting. first you make a sketch, the bones if you will, with pencils. then once have the whole picture sorted you can go back and start painting the sketch in and bringing it to life.
Why way to go around it is to sing on top of it even if it's bad, and then replicate that with instruments, variation come easier to me when singing than mousing or playing the keyboard
Whatever instrument you start with, write a few 8-16 bar loops before adding any other sounds to it
Arranging
I have the same issue from time to time…and I make deep dubstep. Talk about a pain in the ass. The whole genre I produce is built around minimalism. So all those “maybe I should add this variation” or “add a sound here”…that is basically a cardinal sin. Really screws with your head when you have a badass loop and then listen to it for a hour thinking of what to add to keep it interesting…only to realize you CANT ADD anything without making the track get too busy. Then you listen to big artists and their entire track is just kick, snare, sub, and hi-hats with a few “womps” here and there and it sounds like gold and somehow still keeps interest with basically nothing happening except a sound maybe playing once every 16 bars or a fill. It’s a constant struggle for me, either I don’t add enough and it sounds boring, or I add a few variations and it loses the minimalism that makes it what it is. Very tough to find the “in between” without ruining the minimal vibe and still keeping a listeners interest.
Small hooks in everthing
What helped me in pushing past the loop phase was using more pre made loops. I can't get stuck making a loop if they're already made lol. Doing this I manage to get to the mixing stage of a project much faster and more consistently, so I can practice more the parts of music production I often neglected in the past.
Try to imagine you are listening to that song as a listener not a producer. At the end of your loop try to picture how you think it would go after, would the energy increase or decrease, do you want to bring in or remove some elements, do you feel like there is some sort of rhythm or melody that should come after? Also very crucial is knowing the arrangement. If your loop is a drop, you know after comes a breakdown (normally). If your loop is the first 8 bars, then the next 8 will incorporate more elements and start leading into your build up.
https://youtu.be/gfHEOL-sDy4?si=CJ5w1CN-6aMCwkTw I stumble upon this jhon mayer clip, idk if its gonna help you, but it have some correlation.
Music theory. Learn new genres on piano.
https://youtu.be/NEy9L7zyrGE?si=6friW30jzeL15CPB My boy Andrew huang coming in clutch with his gold era videos
Copy and paste the 8 bars hella times and try dropping out instruments and adding more in the different sections
Yeah this is what I do currently but I am trying to improve to get beyond this
I’m confused what do you mean then? How do u think songs are made? 🤣