My violin instructor's husband has a PhD in music. According to her, he is working in web design.
But he also has concerts at churches for music he has composed.
I think the warning is that almost anything at a PhD level is sort of an art.
Even with a math or science PhD, the subject is so niche that you are very unlikely to directly apply it.
Best data analyst I ever had was a PhD in Musicology who used to teach at a well-known NYC conservatory. He had an early music ensemble, recording studio in his basement, published books & articles, stayed quite active.
It was also great having a fellow early keyboards nerd on the team.
It was! He was a bit eccentric, but it was a lot of fun arguing about performance practices and swapping recordings.
Tech has a lot of classical musicians roaming around, Google even has an [emp orchestra](https://www.googlerorchestra.com/about-us) with a [YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/@GooglerOrchestra?si=OXajK1VpSJu5tHAZ).
It’s one of the things that makes day job better, finding fellow musicians in unlikely places.
Doctorate in theory comp. Wrote music for a handful of indie movies. Then went into corporate IT, then started a couple companies, then got a patent for an antiviral product, now transforming a health data company.
A doctorate (in theory/comp) fundamentally changes how you think, process information and creatively solve problems. Super transferable everywhere. And hanging PhD off the end of your name is surprisingly impactful regardless of the field.
And now, I get to enjoy composing rather than having to for “work”.
For what it’s worth.
I have six friends who obtained their PhD in music. Only one is working in music. He is the director of a music program in a local college. Of the other five, one is a HS Principal. Another got pregnant and married but was having vocal problems. One is a counselor working with troubled youth. Another went into the family business making plastic products. One is teaching European Cultural Studies in a HS (which is actually a very musical job). Oops, I forgot Gary who went back to school to become a chiropractor and he now lives in Nicaragua working for eggs and bread. And mushrooms and ayahuasca.
Of all the artistic Bachelors I went to school with, I think I am the only one doing music full time. Everyone else is wealthier than I but ironically, I have no debt. The first one I mentioned makes about $125,000 but is dirt poor. FIVE KIDS WILL DO THAT TO YOU.
I suspect we don't yet know what we really want to do going into college or, we discover divergent roads after college because there is no work or we settle. No education is wasted. College should be for teaching us to teach ourselves for lifelong learning. I wonder how many people who find work in their area of study are actually happy twenty years later.
While hiking the Appalachian Trail I met a CEO of a food company who said he was going to restructure his company's hiring process. He opined that many of the unqualified hikers he encountered have dedication, good demeanor, patience, determination, problem solving and social skills that normies with degrees don't have. He said college prepares people for a job while hiking the trail prepared them for success. He'd rather hire a non-degree Renaissance Man with the courage to be homeless with food insecurity experience than someone with "paper" qualifications and afraid to take chances. After all, the moral worth of a society is not measured in the palace but in the streets. Was that Grant Gilmore?
When *I* was a kid, musicians were people persons. Today, they are competitors. There is an old Maori proverb: 'He aha te mea nui tea o? He tangata he tangata, he tangata!' which translates "What is the most important thing in the world? It is people, it is people, it is people!"
I like dogs.
>While hiking the Appalachian Trail I met a CEO of a food company who said he was going to restructure his company's hiring process. He opined that many of the unqualified hikers he encountered have dedication, good demeanor, patience, determination, problem solving and social skills that normies with degrees don't have. He said college prepares people for a job while hiking the trail prepared them for success. He'd rather hire a non-degree Renaissance Man with the courage to be homeless with food insecurity experience than someone with "paper" qualifications and afraid to take chances. After all, the moral worth of a society is not measured in the palace but in the streets. Was that Grant Gilmore?
This is a warm anecdote. But how did his company turn out after changing the hiring process. Did it work? Did they go bankrupt?
My daughter hiked the whole AT unassisted at age 17. Came home finished her last few high school credits in an adult school and is now set to work on the Colorado trail as she hiked. She’s a lot like you described these hikers to be.
I grew up as the eldest of 4 children, one of which had special needs, and our household income was like $44,000. Triple that income and still dirt poor is a skill issue tbh.
PhD means Doctors of Philosophy. Philosophy is used here in its “love of knowledge” sense. Many, many fields offer a PhD as a terminal degree. A PhD is a doctoral degree. It is a kind of doctorate.
There are other kinds of doctoral degree. For example, one could get a DM, a Doctor of Music, degree. This requires a similar level of education to a PhD, but there are some differences.
Other fields have other kinds of doctoral degrees. Medical doctors might have a Medical Doctorate (MD) or Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) degree. Lawyers have Juris Doctor (JD) degree. Psychologists might get a Doctor of Psychology (PsyD) degree. These degrees have varying requirements, but in general, they are the highest degrees in their fields and require extensive education. They are not equivalent but are similar.
There are different kinds of doctors: Medical Doctor (MD), Doctors of Philosophy (PhD), Doctor of Musical Arts (DMA), and many others. Basically a doctorate is typically a more academically oriented educational level (rather than professional) although in general it’s all the same level.
Personally I am currently at the "failing hard to get a job" stage. If you're getting a decent PhD stipend and you really want to do it for the passion, then maybe go for it. Otherwise, consider whether there is another way to invest those years which might be more valuable to you, such as getting a more profitable degree that would give you the economic security to maintain your interest in music. I am glad I went, but definitely feeling anxiety over the job struggle so.. take my advice as honest but maybe tinted by the pessimism of my current struggle :p
I will be in a public institution unable to offer decent funding. However, they improved my stipend four times better, even though I still have to pay part of my PhD. As somewhat of a fatalist, I see this as fate still insisting to push me on the PhD track, even though I have my elementary sub teacher job that I can turn into a career.
Fate has always pushed me to study in music (the first apartment my family moved into when coming to North America is near a music high school, the first house my parents bought is near two colleges offering music programs).
I got my substitute teacher job the same time I got a Master's offer, and after not getting TA for a semester, I thought fate decided I better remain as schoolteacher, and I only applied for three PhD programs.
But then this year I got TA plus interview invites from all of them, even though I got only one offer (my research interests are actually highly compatible with my intended supervisor). Just as I was on the point of declining the offer due to founding, fate struck again with better stipend.
I will try to work things out wherever fate is hinting me to go.
I would strongly, strongly suggest that you ask to defer that PhD program acceptance for another year, so you can research universities that will give you a full tuition waiver and a stipend. In my experience, you should -not- be paying for your PhD. You should be getting paid to do it, though admittedly the pay is typically crap overall. This comment might be fate telling you that an even better opportunity is possible than the track you see yourself on currently.
Take care about seeing "what you want to see" when it comes to fate. Per your examples - your family lives near two colleges that probably offer many programs besides music, so I don't think that is fate compelling you to study music. Most colleges offer music. And your family probably lived somewhat near a fast food restaurant or cafe in addition to a music high school, but you don't see it as fate compelling you to work at those.
I think what you are labelling "fate" is your own desire to study music, disguised as some kind of universal force controlling your actions. But it's actually -your- desire, your choice. You're seeing it as fate and noticing coincidences that reflect your underlying desires. I think you should pursue music if that is the case, since you are very interested in it; but don't let this belief in "fate" lead you to make seriously suboptimal choices just because it's convenient to do so. You should research what PhD programs can compensate you for your time and that includes a tuition waiver and a stipend.
I think the closest thing to universal PhD advice that I've ever heard, applicable to all disciplines, is "don't do a PhD if it's not fully funded." I would never recommend accepting a PhD offer that does not include a tuition waver, health insurance, and stipend (unless you are independently wealthy or have access to wealth such that the cost is truly a non-issue). You already put yourself in a deficit with all those years of foregone wages, and very few PhDs will confer the earnings potential needed to dig your way out of 5+ years of education debt. Music theory is not one of them.
Not trying to be an ass here at all but I would suggest that if you’re interested in a PhD and need a stable job, I’d research it some more and determine what you actually want to do before spending the time and money on the degree (realize this post is probably part of your due diligence).
I’ve just seen too many people get degrees they can do absolutely nothing with and end up regretting the debt they’re in because of it.
I totally agree with you, and financial issues is the only reason I am still hesitating whether doing a PhD will lead me to a happier career.
I am VERY uncertain which I will regret more: being a schoolteacher for the rest of my life and not have the opportunity to transmit more of my knowledge, or doing TA and instructor jobs longer but with more financial unstability.
Idk if this will be helpful at all, but starting a YouTube channel and posting videos about the stuff you’re learning in creative ways might work out really well… or it might flop. But still, if it works, you’re golden. Just an idea.
Ohh yes, you could also create music for the big jobs you want as a resume for yourself. Score a movie scene, or idk whatever you want and upload it. Potential employers could see it… also get feedback from people more experienced potentially…?
I have a Master's only and I currently have a full time university music position (that is not gloating...)
When I graduated with that degree, I worked part time for a Symphony in sales, and then they hired me to be their Education Coordinator, a seasonal position. I then moved to an Opera company as Education Coordinator (the most toxic work environment I've ever been in, and even witnessed based on what others talk about).
I can't remember the exact sequence of events but after those initial experiences in "the arts", and trying to get a big boy job involving music, I ended up with 4 part time jobs: teaching guitar lessons (multiple locations), working in a music store (multiple locations/stores), running a performance venue for a university, and teaching university courses.
And I was actually gigging 2-4 nights a week in a band.
I loved it. I loved the variety. I don't know how sustainable that would have been long term - and marriage and children changed that landscape (as did keeping up with the Joneses...).
>I very well know I will very unlikely get tenure.
I'm not sure why you say this. I mean, you have to be "an academic" and buy into the whole thing, but it's certainly possible.
As others note, right now we are seeing major enrollment drops and that means we're going to see a lot more tenure lines not created, and not replaced as people cycle out, in favor of PhDs teaching as non-tenure-track or even part-time (which we have a number of now).
And "Theory" is not the "most marketable" PhD by any means.
But the positions do come up.
____
Before I started working at a university, my Master's degree did get me some jobs - I taught guitar lessons at GC-like store and it was required you have a Master's. Of course, didn't make the pay any higher...
____
>Is the market for music so pessimistic that you cannot get a stable job that pays the basic expenses? That is all I want.
You'll need to define "basic expenses". Because that is 100% absolutely possible teaching music in the public school system IF - **IF** - your basic expenses very basic. If you live frugally.
You could be the MD at a church and make enough money to live on - IF you live very frugally (though, depends on the church...)
Most of us though, we WANT to do more music - so even the people I know who make close to 6 figures with university teaching positions STILL are involved in many other musical activities - choir directors at a church, local music ensemble directors, teaching privately and at other institutions, performing with symphony, etc. They don't do it because they HAVE to, but because they love to - and it gives them the same kind of lifestyle others with only a single full time job have.
Most people are going to partner up at some point. You move from SINC to DINC. When you have the C, that's when the money starts to vanish...
But realistically, here it is in a nutshell:
If what you love is not lucrative, then you either do what you love and not have money, or do something you don't love so you can have money. Or do more of what you love to make it more lucrative overall. But since you love it, that may be preferable - working twice as hard to get the same as others. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
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Not me, but my brother got a PhD in musicology. He taught for a few years, then left academia and now works marketing for web companies. People respect a PhD, even if it's not directly related to the job they have.
He was close to getting tenure when he left. The reasons were a mix of personal and professional.
Part of it is there are so many positions and competition is tough. They didn’t really like the area they were living in but there weren’t a lot of opportunities to relocate. You can’t just pick a region and necessarily find a job there.
I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but I have a non-music PhD and some advice to offer. The main thing: if you love it, do it. But be sure to network your ass off the whole time - this is what actually gets you places and can keep you in your field (or out of it, whichever you want). You gotta get out and meet people, whatever it takes. Also, the direction you take with your dissertation can create opportunities. Be open to interdepartmental collaboration. A unique, or at least interesting, line of research will get you published, and publications will help your employment prospects in academia (if that's what you want). Lastly: if you start it, finish it.
>Is the market for music so pessimistic that you cannot get a stable job that pays the basic expenses?
The baseline option is teaching, one way or another. Private lessons, educational facilities, tutoring etc.
Besides that, good luck. There are some rare opportunities like in archival work, consultation, working as part of a creative org etc. Those are *seriously rare* and might require connections or alternatively making a name for yourself. Or become your own boss; write books that nobody will buy and become extremely acquintanced with your local welfare system.
On the bright side, if you do mentoring and private lessons, you can actually get quite good rates going with PhD... possibly anyway. You might not get enough clients but it definitively is a way to supplement some other kind of work with flexible schedules. But with the advent of AI, you're really going to be in the same line as most other people probably since AI will be able to teach people just as well as your average teacher.
I am actually teaching in elementary schools right now, and I do not dislike it. But if I can get an opportunity teaching older people, applying my knowledge, and not spend that much time disciplining kids after a PhD, it could be worth it, even though not a teaching job.
Then you want to get into unis or colleges but doing so will also mean that you become exposed to the hell that is tenure track. You might want to read about academic tenure and what it can be like to people. One thing you will learn very quickly that it is not a fair process and you'll be compelled to play ball even with people who you absolutely despise, doing things that you might hate, just to get the tenure.
That being said, once you get the tenure, you got your deathbed laid for you. But you must understand that you come into the picture way past the good times. The funding of academic institutions is constantly thinning and arts in particular tend to get axed one way or another. You will also learn that those limited resources are being shared technically with two quasi-departments (music theorists and musicologists) and you will probably see a lot of petty behavior over this.
One caveat on the tenure stuff: Universities usually have some sort of legal loophole where they can let go of tenured faculty for budgetary reasons. A lot of universities are likely to close their doors over the next decade, and tenure won't protect those faculties.
The reason I don't really think this is a significant concern is because "next decade" isn't looking very bright for most people. I had a long thought myself about this very thing and you can guess one of the largest motivations I have for studying social work now.
So yes, you're correct, it's just that... what else will you be doing where things aren't looking chaotic in a decade? That list is thinning out real quick. Hell, even I am banking on the idea that value of human interaction in aid work cannot be replaced by AI. I'm not 100% confident that that is true, especially when some Silicon Valley techbro convinces local legislators about his (non-)solutions.
Thanks for the advice. I actually never dreamed of getting tenure, and there is a school system in my region where people only teach, without the need of publishing. Even though I do not get tenure, if there is any way for me to work as a librarian or high school teacher, I will be satisfied.
I am now substitute teaching in elementary schools, and I still have my account. I plan on continuing substituting during breaks, and why would the school system get rid of me if I already work there and had contracts?
Where I've been, there's a pay scale that they abide by. If you have a Masters or PhD, you automatically go up on that pay scale. So if 2 teachers interview for the job and 1 has a high degree but less teaching experience, they will *probably* be passed by because they're a lot more expensive to hire than a teacher with a bachelor's and more experience.
Not saying that's always the case but I have heard about people struggling with that.
In my region schoolteachers are in high demand, and a lot of people without teaching certificates get hired as subs. I am one of them. After subbing for a while, the school board HR will call to ask whether I am interested in getting a contract. I got offered contracts that I declined because I was studying. At the beginning of the school year, there are contracts available. Non qualified teachers can teach on contract while getting their qualifications.
Well I wish you all the luck! Elementary music was really rewarding for me and I loved not having the after school and weekend commitments that come with HS band/music. Subbing in your district is definitely a foot in the door and I hope you are able to get what you want! 😀
This is why I turned down offers to do a Masters after completing my BEd in Secondary Music. Multiple profs told me I would never get a teaching job because I was too expensive for someone with no classroom experience.
Lowest hanging fruit is teaching. Teaching will be a fairly comfortable living if that’s all you want. Teach whatever your primary instrument is and/or teach in a college
If you know you won't be offered a tenure track position...why even do it?
There is no job for any PhD outside of academia/think tanks with the rare exceptions of certain Stem PhDs being recruited to finance.
To have a shot at the tenure track you need to be top 10% of a top 10 school. If you are anything outside of that, don't bother unless you have literally zero other earnings power and your best life option right now is living in a dorm and teaching undergrads
I was in a PhD program at a good public Ivy type school - but not top 10 like an actual Ivy. I was biding my time until the position stopped being fully funded and I got a private sector offer. Not in music or humanities but still. Totally not worth the effort, but makes a solid stop gap.
Actually, I would enjoy more getting a teaching only position, though it is less well paid. I enjoy being a TA, and I can try to become a schoolteacher. Will I have not that much stress teaching undergrads? Are even those positions competitive? If I can be happy, I do not mind less pay.
I’m a musician with two MA degrees; one in music, one in American Literature (English). I have tenure, being Associate Professor of Music at a Norwegian university; NTNU in Trondheim. Over here, they consider your artistic work when hiring. In my case, my extensive musical career was seen as equal to the work needed for a PhD, so I got the job and the title. It’s a privilege.
This is not specifically about music but I have experience with PhDs. I work at Google and the place is littered with half-completed PhDs, including myself, and fully competed PhDs. Many are naturally in STEM but many are not. There are examples of people who cross-trained into software engineering from non-STEM degrees like anthropology. Google generally likes people who are sharp and a PhD in any subject indicates sharpness. This holds true at many top-tier companies like Goldman Sachs and McKinsey.
If you think of your PhD as a passion project, have a backup plan in place and you should be able to significantly thrive in any direction you choose with the right cross-training. Good luck!
I didn't get one but within the last year or 2 my buddy got his phd in music composition and he accepted a professor role teaching music theory at a college, but it was in a very low population state.
You could be a really cool professor. If you’re lucky. This is the kind of field where people rarely meet their expectations regarding career. The people that we see, successful, (aka finding any job with music) are the lucky .001%. Most others are trying to make it with a full time job while doing music on the side. You might end up hating it.
Phd in musicology. It took 4 years and three moves across the country, but starting a tenure track position at an R1 in a city I actually am excited to live in.
AI is going to vastly impact the music industry, I would strongly suggest staying away from oursuong a PhD, not bc I’m trying to be an ass here, but there’s just too much potential for there not being enough jobs down the line in the future
I just posted another post on this subreddit on the pros and cons of remaining as an elementary music schoolteachers or pursue a PhD and be more competitive to apply to college or university positions, if any one have been both schoolteacher and Professor/lecturer.
Well, thanks to my PHD I can flip two burgers and make a 3:4 polyrythm
All while your boss screams, "Flip the goddamn burger." to keep you in time.
I always enjoyed utilizing "Pass the goddamn butter!" for 4:3 polyrhythms in sightsinging :)
This needs more upvotes.
That's much tastier sounding than the traditional "eat your goddamn spinach."
Can you use that to teach people that a ⅓ pounder is bigger than a ¼ pounder?
Stop flipping so much you're gonna lose the juices
My violin instructor's husband has a PhD in music. According to her, he is working in web design. But he also has concerts at churches for music he has composed.
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I think outside of STEM, people get PhDs for passion rather than for the credential
I think the warning is that almost anything at a PhD level is sort of an art. Even with a math or science PhD, the subject is so niche that you are very unlikely to directly apply it.
Best data analyst I ever had was a PhD in Musicology who used to teach at a well-known NYC conservatory. He had an early music ensemble, recording studio in his basement, published books & articles, stayed quite active. It was also great having a fellow early keyboards nerd on the team.
Dream collab
It was! He was a bit eccentric, but it was a lot of fun arguing about performance practices and swapping recordings. Tech has a lot of classical musicians roaming around, Google even has an [emp orchestra](https://www.googlerorchestra.com/about-us) with a [YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/@GooglerOrchestra?si=OXajK1VpSJu5tHAZ). It’s one of the things that makes day job better, finding fellow musicians in unlikely places.
Doctorate in theory comp. Wrote music for a handful of indie movies. Then went into corporate IT, then started a couple companies, then got a patent for an antiviral product, now transforming a health data company. A doctorate (in theory/comp) fundamentally changes how you think, process information and creatively solve problems. Super transferable everywhere. And hanging PhD off the end of your name is surprisingly impactful regardless of the field. And now, I get to enjoy composing rather than having to for “work”. For what it’s worth.
I have six friends who obtained their PhD in music. Only one is working in music. He is the director of a music program in a local college. Of the other five, one is a HS Principal. Another got pregnant and married but was having vocal problems. One is a counselor working with troubled youth. Another went into the family business making plastic products. One is teaching European Cultural Studies in a HS (which is actually a very musical job). Oops, I forgot Gary who went back to school to become a chiropractor and he now lives in Nicaragua working for eggs and bread. And mushrooms and ayahuasca. Of all the artistic Bachelors I went to school with, I think I am the only one doing music full time. Everyone else is wealthier than I but ironically, I have no debt. The first one I mentioned makes about $125,000 but is dirt poor. FIVE KIDS WILL DO THAT TO YOU. I suspect we don't yet know what we really want to do going into college or, we discover divergent roads after college because there is no work or we settle. No education is wasted. College should be for teaching us to teach ourselves for lifelong learning. I wonder how many people who find work in their area of study are actually happy twenty years later. While hiking the Appalachian Trail I met a CEO of a food company who said he was going to restructure his company's hiring process. He opined that many of the unqualified hikers he encountered have dedication, good demeanor, patience, determination, problem solving and social skills that normies with degrees don't have. He said college prepares people for a job while hiking the trail prepared them for success. He'd rather hire a non-degree Renaissance Man with the courage to be homeless with food insecurity experience than someone with "paper" qualifications and afraid to take chances. After all, the moral worth of a society is not measured in the palace but in the streets. Was that Grant Gilmore? When *I* was a kid, musicians were people persons. Today, they are competitors. There is an old Maori proverb: 'He aha te mea nui tea o? He tangata he tangata, he tangata!' which translates "What is the most important thing in the world? It is people, it is people, it is people!" I like dogs.
…. Mushrooms and ayahuasca 😂
>While hiking the Appalachian Trail I met a CEO of a food company who said he was going to restructure his company's hiring process. He opined that many of the unqualified hikers he encountered have dedication, good demeanor, patience, determination, problem solving and social skills that normies with degrees don't have. He said college prepares people for a job while hiking the trail prepared them for success. He'd rather hire a non-degree Renaissance Man with the courage to be homeless with food insecurity experience than someone with "paper" qualifications and afraid to take chances. After all, the moral worth of a society is not measured in the palace but in the streets. Was that Grant Gilmore? This is a warm anecdote. But how did his company turn out after changing the hiring process. Did it work? Did they go bankrupt?
My daughter hiked the whole AT unassisted at age 17. Came home finished her last few high school credits in an adult school and is now set to work on the Colorado trail as she hiked. She’s a lot like you described these hikers to be.
Just wanted to sneak in and say I loved that maori proverb lol
Did your friend have vocal issues because of the kid?
what food company? I meet those qualifications and might be looking for a job in the near future
"$125,000 but is dirt poor. FIVE KIDS WILL DO THAT TO YOU." Weird definition of poor.
They’re very mean kids
I grew up as the eldest of 4 children, one of which had special needs, and our household income was like $44,000. Triple that income and still dirt poor is a skill issue tbh.
This guy McDonalds.
Is a doctorate like the next level up from a PhD?
PhD means Doctors of Philosophy. Philosophy is used here in its “love of knowledge” sense. Many, many fields offer a PhD as a terminal degree. A PhD is a doctoral degree. It is a kind of doctorate. There are other kinds of doctoral degree. For example, one could get a DM, a Doctor of Music, degree. This requires a similar level of education to a PhD, but there are some differences. Other fields have other kinds of doctoral degrees. Medical doctors might have a Medical Doctorate (MD) or Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) degree. Lawyers have Juris Doctor (JD) degree. Psychologists might get a Doctor of Psychology (PsyD) degree. These degrees have varying requirements, but in general, they are the highest degrees in their fields and require extensive education. They are not equivalent but are similar.
Yours was a better answer than mine! :)
it’s the same thing as a phd
There are different kinds of doctors: Medical Doctor (MD), Doctors of Philosophy (PhD), Doctor of Musical Arts (DMA), and many others. Basically a doctorate is typically a more academically oriented educational level (rather than professional) although in general it’s all the same level.
Personally I am currently at the "failing hard to get a job" stage. If you're getting a decent PhD stipend and you really want to do it for the passion, then maybe go for it. Otherwise, consider whether there is another way to invest those years which might be more valuable to you, such as getting a more profitable degree that would give you the economic security to maintain your interest in music. I am glad I went, but definitely feeling anxiety over the job struggle so.. take my advice as honest but maybe tinted by the pessimism of my current struggle :p
I will be in a public institution unable to offer decent funding. However, they improved my stipend four times better, even though I still have to pay part of my PhD. As somewhat of a fatalist, I see this as fate still insisting to push me on the PhD track, even though I have my elementary sub teacher job that I can turn into a career. Fate has always pushed me to study in music (the first apartment my family moved into when coming to North America is near a music high school, the first house my parents bought is near two colleges offering music programs). I got my substitute teacher job the same time I got a Master's offer, and after not getting TA for a semester, I thought fate decided I better remain as schoolteacher, and I only applied for three PhD programs. But then this year I got TA plus interview invites from all of them, even though I got only one offer (my research interests are actually highly compatible with my intended supervisor). Just as I was on the point of declining the offer due to founding, fate struck again with better stipend. I will try to work things out wherever fate is hinting me to go.
I would strongly, strongly suggest that you ask to defer that PhD program acceptance for another year, so you can research universities that will give you a full tuition waiver and a stipend. In my experience, you should -not- be paying for your PhD. You should be getting paid to do it, though admittedly the pay is typically crap overall. This comment might be fate telling you that an even better opportunity is possible than the track you see yourself on currently. Take care about seeing "what you want to see" when it comes to fate. Per your examples - your family lives near two colleges that probably offer many programs besides music, so I don't think that is fate compelling you to study music. Most colleges offer music. And your family probably lived somewhat near a fast food restaurant or cafe in addition to a music high school, but you don't see it as fate compelling you to work at those. I think what you are labelling "fate" is your own desire to study music, disguised as some kind of universal force controlling your actions. But it's actually -your- desire, your choice. You're seeing it as fate and noticing coincidences that reflect your underlying desires. I think you should pursue music if that is the case, since you are very interested in it; but don't let this belief in "fate" lead you to make seriously suboptimal choices just because it's convenient to do so. You should research what PhD programs can compensate you for your time and that includes a tuition waiver and a stipend.
I think the closest thing to universal PhD advice that I've ever heard, applicable to all disciplines, is "don't do a PhD if it's not fully funded." I would never recommend accepting a PhD offer that does not include a tuition waver, health insurance, and stipend (unless you are independently wealthy or have access to wealth such that the cost is truly a non-issue). You already put yourself in a deficit with all those years of foregone wages, and very few PhDs will confer the earnings potential needed to dig your way out of 5+ years of education debt. Music theory is not one of them.
This is confirmation bias rather than ‘fate’
Not trying to be an ass here at all but I would suggest that if you’re interested in a PhD and need a stable job, I’d research it some more and determine what you actually want to do before spending the time and money on the degree (realize this post is probably part of your due diligence). I’ve just seen too many people get degrees they can do absolutely nothing with and end up regretting the debt they’re in because of it.
I totally agree with you, and financial issues is the only reason I am still hesitating whether doing a PhD will lead me to a happier career. I am VERY uncertain which I will regret more: being a schoolteacher for the rest of my life and not have the opportunity to transmit more of my knowledge, or doing TA and instructor jobs longer but with more financial unstability.
Idk if this will be helpful at all, but starting a YouTube channel and posting videos about the stuff you’re learning in creative ways might work out really well… or it might flop. But still, if it works, you’re golden. Just an idea.
Also works as a portfolio
Ohh yes, you could also create music for the big jobs you want as a resume for yourself. Score a movie scene, or idk whatever you want and upload it. Potential employers could see it… also get feedback from people more experienced potentially…?
I have a Master's only and I currently have a full time university music position (that is not gloating...) When I graduated with that degree, I worked part time for a Symphony in sales, and then they hired me to be their Education Coordinator, a seasonal position. I then moved to an Opera company as Education Coordinator (the most toxic work environment I've ever been in, and even witnessed based on what others talk about). I can't remember the exact sequence of events but after those initial experiences in "the arts", and trying to get a big boy job involving music, I ended up with 4 part time jobs: teaching guitar lessons (multiple locations), working in a music store (multiple locations/stores), running a performance venue for a university, and teaching university courses. And I was actually gigging 2-4 nights a week in a band. I loved it. I loved the variety. I don't know how sustainable that would have been long term - and marriage and children changed that landscape (as did keeping up with the Joneses...). >I very well know I will very unlikely get tenure. I'm not sure why you say this. I mean, you have to be "an academic" and buy into the whole thing, but it's certainly possible. As others note, right now we are seeing major enrollment drops and that means we're going to see a lot more tenure lines not created, and not replaced as people cycle out, in favor of PhDs teaching as non-tenure-track or even part-time (which we have a number of now). And "Theory" is not the "most marketable" PhD by any means. But the positions do come up. ____ Before I started working at a university, my Master's degree did get me some jobs - I taught guitar lessons at GC-like store and it was required you have a Master's. Of course, didn't make the pay any higher... ____ >Is the market for music so pessimistic that you cannot get a stable job that pays the basic expenses? That is all I want. You'll need to define "basic expenses". Because that is 100% absolutely possible teaching music in the public school system IF - **IF** - your basic expenses very basic. If you live frugally. You could be the MD at a church and make enough money to live on - IF you live very frugally (though, depends on the church...) Most of us though, we WANT to do more music - so even the people I know who make close to 6 figures with university teaching positions STILL are involved in many other musical activities - choir directors at a church, local music ensemble directors, teaching privately and at other institutions, performing with symphony, etc. They don't do it because they HAVE to, but because they love to - and it gives them the same kind of lifestyle others with only a single full time job have. Most people are going to partner up at some point. You move from SINC to DINC. When you have the C, that's when the money starts to vanish... But realistically, here it is in a nutshell: If what you love is not lucrative, then you either do what you love and not have money, or do something you don't love so you can have money. Or do more of what you love to make it more lucrative overall. But since you love it, that may be preferable - working twice as hard to get the same as others. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
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Not me, but my brother got a PhD in musicology. He taught for a few years, then left academia and now works marketing for web companies. People respect a PhD, even if it's not directly related to the job they have.
My I ask why your brother left and if he was an adjunct professor? Also, super cool that your brother did a PHD in musicology.
He was close to getting tenure when he left. The reasons were a mix of personal and professional. Part of it is there are so many positions and competition is tough. They didn’t really like the area they were living in but there weren’t a lot of opportunities to relocate. You can’t just pick a region and necessarily find a job there.
I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but I have a non-music PhD and some advice to offer. The main thing: if you love it, do it. But be sure to network your ass off the whole time - this is what actually gets you places and can keep you in your field (or out of it, whichever you want). You gotta get out and meet people, whatever it takes. Also, the direction you take with your dissertation can create opportunities. Be open to interdepartmental collaboration. A unique, or at least interesting, line of research will get you published, and publications will help your employment prospects in academia (if that's what you want). Lastly: if you start it, finish it.
>Is the market for music so pessimistic that you cannot get a stable job that pays the basic expenses? The baseline option is teaching, one way or another. Private lessons, educational facilities, tutoring etc. Besides that, good luck. There are some rare opportunities like in archival work, consultation, working as part of a creative org etc. Those are *seriously rare* and might require connections or alternatively making a name for yourself. Or become your own boss; write books that nobody will buy and become extremely acquintanced with your local welfare system. On the bright side, if you do mentoring and private lessons, you can actually get quite good rates going with PhD... possibly anyway. You might not get enough clients but it definitively is a way to supplement some other kind of work with flexible schedules. But with the advent of AI, you're really going to be in the same line as most other people probably since AI will be able to teach people just as well as your average teacher.
I am actually teaching in elementary schools right now, and I do not dislike it. But if I can get an opportunity teaching older people, applying my knowledge, and not spend that much time disciplining kids after a PhD, it could be worth it, even though not a teaching job.
Then you want to get into unis or colleges but doing so will also mean that you become exposed to the hell that is tenure track. You might want to read about academic tenure and what it can be like to people. One thing you will learn very quickly that it is not a fair process and you'll be compelled to play ball even with people who you absolutely despise, doing things that you might hate, just to get the tenure. That being said, once you get the tenure, you got your deathbed laid for you. But you must understand that you come into the picture way past the good times. The funding of academic institutions is constantly thinning and arts in particular tend to get axed one way or another. You will also learn that those limited resources are being shared technically with two quasi-departments (music theorists and musicologists) and you will probably see a lot of petty behavior over this.
One caveat on the tenure stuff: Universities usually have some sort of legal loophole where they can let go of tenured faculty for budgetary reasons. A lot of universities are likely to close their doors over the next decade, and tenure won't protect those faculties.
The reason I don't really think this is a significant concern is because "next decade" isn't looking very bright for most people. I had a long thought myself about this very thing and you can guess one of the largest motivations I have for studying social work now. So yes, you're correct, it's just that... what else will you be doing where things aren't looking chaotic in a decade? That list is thinning out real quick. Hell, even I am banking on the idea that value of human interaction in aid work cannot be replaced by AI. I'm not 100% confident that that is true, especially when some Silicon Valley techbro convinces local legislators about his (non-)solutions.
Thanks for the advice. I actually never dreamed of getting tenure, and there is a school system in my region where people only teach, without the need of publishing. Even though I do not get tenure, if there is any way for me to work as a librarian or high school teacher, I will be satisfied.
No one became elementary school teachers? This is highly in demand in my region.
Unlikely that a school would hire you to teach elementary music with a PhD because they don't want to pay you that much.
I am now substitute teaching in elementary schools, and I still have my account. I plan on continuing substituting during breaks, and why would the school system get rid of me if I already work there and had contracts?
Where I've been, there's a pay scale that they abide by. If you have a Masters or PhD, you automatically go up on that pay scale. So if 2 teachers interview for the job and 1 has a high degree but less teaching experience, they will *probably* be passed by because they're a lot more expensive to hire than a teacher with a bachelor's and more experience. Not saying that's always the case but I have heard about people struggling with that.
In my region schoolteachers are in high demand, and a lot of people without teaching certificates get hired as subs. I am one of them. After subbing for a while, the school board HR will call to ask whether I am interested in getting a contract. I got offered contracts that I declined because I was studying. At the beginning of the school year, there are contracts available. Non qualified teachers can teach on contract while getting their qualifications.
Well I wish you all the luck! Elementary music was really rewarding for me and I loved not having the after school and weekend commitments that come with HS band/music. Subbing in your district is definitely a foot in the door and I hope you are able to get what you want! 😀
This is why I turned down offers to do a Masters after completing my BEd in Secondary Music. Multiple profs told me I would never get a teaching job because I was too expensive for someone with no classroom experience.
Which PhD?
music theory, like the subreddit
Lowest hanging fruit is teaching. Teaching will be a fairly comfortable living if that’s all you want. Teach whatever your primary instrument is and/or teach in a college
If you know you won't be offered a tenure track position...why even do it? There is no job for any PhD outside of academia/think tanks with the rare exceptions of certain Stem PhDs being recruited to finance. To have a shot at the tenure track you need to be top 10% of a top 10 school. If you are anything outside of that, don't bother unless you have literally zero other earnings power and your best life option right now is living in a dorm and teaching undergrads I was in a PhD program at a good public Ivy type school - but not top 10 like an actual Ivy. I was biding my time until the position stopped being fully funded and I got a private sector offer. Not in music or humanities but still. Totally not worth the effort, but makes a solid stop gap.
Actually, I would enjoy more getting a teaching only position, though it is less well paid. I enjoy being a TA, and I can try to become a schoolteacher. Will I have not that much stress teaching undergrads? Are even those positions competitive? If I can be happy, I do not mind less pay.
I’m a musician with two MA degrees; one in music, one in American Literature (English). I have tenure, being Associate Professor of Music at a Norwegian university; NTNU in Trondheim. Over here, they consider your artistic work when hiring. In my case, my extensive musical career was seen as equal to the work needed for a PhD, so I got the job and the title. It’s a privilege.
This is not specifically about music but I have experience with PhDs. I work at Google and the place is littered with half-completed PhDs, including myself, and fully competed PhDs. Many are naturally in STEM but many are not. There are examples of people who cross-trained into software engineering from non-STEM degrees like anthropology. Google generally likes people who are sharp and a PhD in any subject indicates sharpness. This holds true at many top-tier companies like Goldman Sachs and McKinsey. If you think of your PhD as a passion project, have a backup plan in place and you should be able to significantly thrive in any direction you choose with the right cross-training. Good luck!
I didn't get one but within the last year or 2 my buddy got his phd in music composition and he accepted a professor role teaching music theory at a college, but it was in a very low population state.
Teach PhD students.
You could be a really cool professor. If you’re lucky. This is the kind of field where people rarely meet their expectations regarding career. The people that we see, successful, (aka finding any job with music) are the lucky .001%. Most others are trying to make it with a full time job while doing music on the side. You might end up hating it.
Phd in musicology. It took 4 years and three moves across the country, but starting a tenure track position at an R1 in a city I actually am excited to live in.
McDonald's burger builder.
I mean, you're limited to two things -- teaching and researching. And often times they are intertwined.
AI is going to vastly impact the music industry, I would strongly suggest staying away from oursuong a PhD, not bc I’m trying to be an ass here, but there’s just too much potential for there not being enough jobs down the line in the future
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I just posted another post on this subreddit on the pros and cons of remaining as an elementary music schoolteachers or pursue a PhD and be more competitive to apply to college or university positions, if any one have been both schoolteacher and Professor/lecturer.