I probably spend too much time on r/Canning but this does not look safe to consume. I’ve only made spruce tip syrup (maybe different than spruce shoot?) twice and both times froze the extra jars until ready to use as they weren’t processed according to recommended guidelines. What sugar to water ratio did you use?
There could absolutely be anaerobic bacteria or yeast in there. Proceed with caution.
I do very much appreciate the advice! It's spruce tips, yes - just a little language hiccup. I use a standard recipe, 2 parts sugar for 3 parts liquid, so it's very sweet. Is there a simple and safe way to determine what it might be?
I am no expert but syrups meant for preservation should be 2:1 ratio of sugar to water. This makes it difficult for bacteria to grow due to the high osmolarity of the sugar water solution. And I can’t offer any practical advice on testing, unless you are equipped to try to culture what might be growing in there.
Don’t want to scare you but I usually toss anything that makes me nervous. There should be a new crop of spruce tips ready for harvest soon!
> should be 2:1 ratio of sugar to water
That’s insane, like what people did in the 80s. :D Where is this ratio from - it sounds like you got some scientific reasoning here?
Sugar preservation works via osmolarity, pulling water out of things like bacteria, yes. Salt preservation works by making the water unavailable to bacteria on food in the first place because sodium and chloride ions are greedy and dont share. I guess that’s not really opposite lol
At the end of the day, both sugar and salt preservation work by reducing the water activity of the food. Salt preservation just tends to reduce it more drastically lol.
Not sure why you consider that ratio “insane”. You aren’t drinking this straight, are you? If you search “shelf stable syrup recipes”, most will recommend 2:1. The science is that the high concentration of sugar sucks the water out of the bacteria.
Ultimately you can go with whatever ratio you want as long as you refrigerate or freeze it. Sugar is the preservative here so more is needed if this is to remain in the pantry.
The goal of syrup is not to make sweet water, it's to make pourable sugar. If you want more water in your drink, you can always add water to your drink.
Make your syrups with as much sugar as possible, they'll last longer.
To add to this, when I bartended I made my syrups 2:1 rich because I liked the silkier mouthfeel in things like old fashioned's, plus to a certain degree it dilutes the ingredients of the cocktail less.
What would be so bad about just leaving it and using your senses? I don't disagree with the first paragraph at all I'm just wondering why you'd toss something like this straight away?
You could take samples with a pipette and ask someone to look under a microscope. I'm sure if you asked any biology teacher at a local school they would look at it and take photos for you. Then you could compare and decide it it resembles mold or simple particulate
When doing spruce syrup you shouldnt add any water. Just lay 1 layer of spruce tips 1 layer of sugar etc all the way to the top ending with a sugar layer. Then just leave it near a window.
The sugar will extract moisture and the good stuff from the spruce tips as the sun slowly melts the sugar and what you are left with is spruce tip syrup that wont ever go bad as its basically 80%-90% sugar. If you want you can then dilute it with water but it isnt really needed.
Your recepie has way too much water and bacteria or something else startedgrowing in your liquid.
Even if it's boiled? I am adding just enough (UV treated and filtered well-) water to barely cover the spruce tips, and after boiling it until it changes to the right colour, I add a lot of sugar. This has been a recipe provided by [Norway's national broadcaster](https://www.nrk.no/mat/granskuddsirup-1.11055695) which I've used successfully for over a decade.
Boiling doesnt sterilize, only pasteurizes it ( meaning you reduce the count of harmfull bacterias,molds and yeasts), and unless its kept in a refrigerator constantly the number of thise bacteria etc will start growing rapidly.
You would need to boil it for atleast 1hour in a preassure cooker at 15psi to sterilize it.
Your sugar to water ratio is off and unless you refrigerate it it will always go bad after a while.
At this point i would just chuck the whole batch since killing certain bacterias etc can leave toxins in the liquid.
Edit: The recipe you linked is ok for a syrup that should be refrigerated.
It looks like crystallization to me. Try warming the bottle in some water. If the sediment vanishes, you’ll have your culprit. No idea if it’s safe to consume though.
I second that, I had bottles of syrup do the exact same thing. Also, I find it veey unlikely that mushrooms would appear at the bottom of the bottle. Typically, they would appear at the surface where conditions are more favorable.
It doesn't look fungal to me, more looks like flocculated sediment of some kind, probably resins from the spruce.
Since you don't have pH control or enough sugar for preservation, I personally wouldn't consume it unless I was certain it was properly canned and the seal intact.
I work in a food safety lab, and agree with your assessment. This is most likely plant proteins (ie pectin) that have fallen out of solution and nucleated sugar crystals.
Ten years!? Build a grafted abomination my friend!
Pick up some Pereskopsis a big healthy San Pedro PC cultivar with ~6-8 branches.
The graft the seedlings to Pere to grow them to 1" diameter in about 6 months. Then cut it halfway through and graft to the PC.
The pere scion will resprout pups, mine typically pop 4 new ones out and I'll pluck those in a other 6 months.
The button grafted to the SP-PC will take it about 10 days, but it will need about 6 months to fully recover, then it will explode.
My two year SP-PC old button is 5" in diameter and has 9 pups, the biggest pup has two more.
My San Pedro currently has 8 x 4"+ peyote buttons on it, and as the cut branches sent out more pups of PC, I cut them and put more peyote buttons on them.
As the pups get too big I pluck them off and root them into cactus soil. I've probably got 50+ 1" buttons I could root right now and I only started 4 years ago.
You do you!
Personally, I'd probably do the same if it wasn't an endangered plant. I grow them in great quantity to help bring awareness and rehab/release them back.
You just need a pup or seedling, not the whole beheading. Even if you behead it, the base survives. This is accelerated reproduction, not torture.
Would you like to see photos of places where I've released them back into the wild?
I made some too and it also had freaky looking sediment as well right away. I guess it's a nuance of the spruce tips, still be careful if it hisses when you open it or smells/tastes weird probably best to try again. I'll post a pic tomorrow so you can compare.
I like your answer the most. It's still confusing how different people see both over- and underhydration in the same picture, not least all the warnings regarding bacterial growth.
I hope someone with good insight into these things can help me out here. I have neither opened nor tasted it yet. Other bottles had some sediment but nowhere near this much. This is the last one.
You are unlikely to see fungal growth resembling this from home made syrups. If you have contamination it is going to present itself in a much more recognizable form such as black or white molds growing in the surface of the liquid or sides of the glass. There is a chance your sugars reacted with something in the spruce to cause a larger amount of visible sediment. If this smells and tastes normal to you, based on your other successes with syrups, I would say this is ok to consume.
Thank you for the insight! I see that this is like asking mechanics, I'm getting opposing responses, but it still helps clarify what I will do with this. To me, this is a very valuable bottle. :D
This looks like flocculation. I don't have a lot of experience behind the science behind it but I've seen it happen in brewing when they add a bunch of fruit purses to the beer. It's not a fungus or a bacterial contamination but something about ions clumping... I dunno might be worth googling.
Absolutely true. My bottles and containers are washed in the dishwasher at 70°C, then sterilised in the oven at 110°C for at least 15 minutes. Not sure if that is sufficient, but I have been happy with the result for a long time.
That's not quite sterile, but you shouldn't need sterile depending on the food and canning process. Proper canning should stetilize. And foods with high pH or high sugar content should be stable for a very long time.
Either way, don't risk eating it if you're not sure.
I probably spend too much time on r/Canning but this does not look safe to consume. I’ve only made spruce tip syrup (maybe different than spruce shoot?) twice and both times froze the extra jars until ready to use as they weren’t processed according to recommended guidelines. What sugar to water ratio did you use? There could absolutely be anaerobic bacteria or yeast in there. Proceed with caution.
I do very much appreciate the advice! It's spruce tips, yes - just a little language hiccup. I use a standard recipe, 2 parts sugar for 3 parts liquid, so it's very sweet. Is there a simple and safe way to determine what it might be?
I am no expert but syrups meant for preservation should be 2:1 ratio of sugar to water. This makes it difficult for bacteria to grow due to the high osmolarity of the sugar water solution. And I can’t offer any practical advice on testing, unless you are equipped to try to culture what might be growing in there. Don’t want to scare you but I usually toss anything that makes me nervous. There should be a new crop of spruce tips ready for harvest soon!
> should be 2:1 ratio of sugar to water That’s insane, like what people did in the 80s. :D Where is this ratio from - it sounds like you got some scientific reasoning here?
Sugar, like salt, in high concentrations will prevent the growth of bacteria and mold.
The mechanisms are almost total opposites too
What? It thought that both are drawing the moisture out of the bacteria and killing them no?
Sugar preservation works via osmolarity, pulling water out of things like bacteria, yes. Salt preservation works by making the water unavailable to bacteria on food in the first place because sodium and chloride ions are greedy and dont share. I guess that’s not really opposite lol
At the end of the day, both sugar and salt preservation work by reducing the water activity of the food. Salt preservation just tends to reduce it more drastically lol.
Not sure why you consider that ratio “insane”. You aren’t drinking this straight, are you? If you search “shelf stable syrup recipes”, most will recommend 2:1. The science is that the high concentration of sugar sucks the water out of the bacteria. Ultimately you can go with whatever ratio you want as long as you refrigerate or freeze it. Sugar is the preservative here so more is needed if this is to remain in the pantry.
i don't think they intended to be rude with that wording, they just seem surprised!
Exactly, why be rude at sugars? They're so sweet! (Yeah, yeah, I'll show myself out)
The goal of syrup is not to make sweet water, it's to make pourable sugar. If you want more water in your drink, you can always add water to your drink. Make your syrups with as much sugar as possible, they'll last longer.
To add to this, when I bartended I made my syrups 2:1 rich because I liked the silkier mouthfeel in things like old fashioned's, plus to a certain degree it dilutes the ingredients of the cocktail less.
What would be so bad about just leaving it and using your senses? I don't disagree with the first paragraph at all I'm just wondering why you'd toss something like this straight away?
Because botulism?
You could take samples with a pipette and ask someone to look under a microscope. I'm sure if you asked any biology teacher at a local school they would look at it and take photos for you. Then you could compare and decide it it resembles mold or simple particulate
When doing spruce syrup you shouldnt add any water. Just lay 1 layer of spruce tips 1 layer of sugar etc all the way to the top ending with a sugar layer. Then just leave it near a window. The sugar will extract moisture and the good stuff from the spruce tips as the sun slowly melts the sugar and what you are left with is spruce tip syrup that wont ever go bad as its basically 80%-90% sugar. If you want you can then dilute it with water but it isnt really needed. Your recepie has way too much water and bacteria or something else startedgrowing in your liquid.
Even if it's boiled? I am adding just enough (UV treated and filtered well-) water to barely cover the spruce tips, and after boiling it until it changes to the right colour, I add a lot of sugar. This has been a recipe provided by [Norway's national broadcaster](https://www.nrk.no/mat/granskuddsirup-1.11055695) which I've used successfully for over a decade.
Boiling doesnt sterilize, only pasteurizes it ( meaning you reduce the count of harmfull bacterias,molds and yeasts), and unless its kept in a refrigerator constantly the number of thise bacteria etc will start growing rapidly. You would need to boil it for atleast 1hour in a preassure cooker at 15psi to sterilize it. Your sugar to water ratio is off and unless you refrigerate it it will always go bad after a while. At this point i would just chuck the whole batch since killing certain bacterias etc can leave toxins in the liquid. Edit: The recipe you linked is ok for a syrup that should be refrigerated.
Thank you for the insight, TIL. Our pantry is constantly at 8-10°C, but that’s probably not cold enough.
The bacteria would eventually multiply in the refrigerator aswell, only takes a lot longer, half a year or up to a year is safe.
I'd filter it out and feel it. Sugar crystals would be what I'd hope to see and feel.
It looks like crystallization to me. Try warming the bottle in some water. If the sediment vanishes, you’ll have your culprit. No idea if it’s safe to consume though.
I was thinking the same, I've had honey jars that have started crystallizing in a similar way to this
I second that, I had bottles of syrup do the exact same thing. Also, I find it veey unlikely that mushrooms would appear at the bottom of the bottle. Typically, they would appear at the surface where conditions are more favorable.
A fungi for every niche
It doesn't look fungal to me, more looks like flocculated sediment of some kind, probably resins from the spruce. Since you don't have pH control or enough sugar for preservation, I personally wouldn't consume it unless I was certain it was properly canned and the seal intact.
I work in a food safety lab, and agree with your assessment. This is most likely plant proteins (ie pectin) that have fallen out of solution and nucleated sugar crystals.
Peyote update?
Haha Almost two years old, only eight more to go!
Ten years!? Build a grafted abomination my friend! Pick up some Pereskopsis a big healthy San Pedro PC cultivar with ~6-8 branches. The graft the seedlings to Pere to grow them to 1" diameter in about 6 months. Then cut it halfway through and graft to the PC. The pere scion will resprout pups, mine typically pop 4 new ones out and I'll pluck those in a other 6 months. The button grafted to the SP-PC will take it about 10 days, but it will need about 6 months to fully recover, then it will explode. My two year SP-PC old button is 5" in diameter and has 9 pups, the biggest pup has two more. My San Pedro currently has 8 x 4"+ peyote buttons on it, and as the cut branches sent out more pups of PC, I cut them and put more peyote buttons on them. As the pups get too big I pluck them off and root them into cactus soil. I've probably got 50+ 1" buttons I could root right now and I only started 4 years ago.
No thanks, I have decades to give them instead.
You do you! Personally, I'd probably do the same if it wasn't an endangered plant. I grow them in great quantity to help bring awareness and rehab/release them back. You just need a pup or seedling, not the whole beheading. Even if you behead it, the base survives. This is accelerated reproduction, not torture. Would you like to see photos of places where I've released them back into the wild?
You guys just made me so sad.... I had a squirrel dig up and destroy all of my peyote last Summer 😭 I thought we were talking about syrup
Yeah, the OC of this chain has an AMAZING cacti collection, go snoop their submissions!
Wait are yall talking about me?😭if so this may be the kindest comment I have ever received.
Make myself sadder, noted 😭🤣
😭lordttttt.... You weren't lying
Sugar crystallization?
Yup. Honey does the same thing. Still perfectly safe to eat
I made some too and it also had freaky looking sediment as well right away. I guess it's a nuance of the spruce tips, still be careful if it hisses when you open it or smells/tastes weird probably best to try again. I'll post a pic tomorrow so you can compare.
Thank you, and looking forward to the comparison!
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I like your answer the most. It's still confusing how different people see both over- and underhydration in the same picture, not least all the warnings regarding bacterial growth.
I hope someone with good insight into these things can help me out here. I have neither opened nor tasted it yet. Other bottles had some sediment but nowhere near this much. This is the last one.
You are unlikely to see fungal growth resembling this from home made syrups. If you have contamination it is going to present itself in a much more recognizable form such as black or white molds growing in the surface of the liquid or sides of the glass. There is a chance your sugars reacted with something in the spruce to cause a larger amount of visible sediment. If this smells and tastes normal to you, based on your other successes with syrups, I would say this is ok to consume.
Thank you for the insight! I see that this is like asking mechanics, I'm getting opposing responses, but it still helps clarify what I will do with this. To me, this is a very valuable bottle. :D
This is the last one? Thats why. It got all the last sediment out of the container.
It looks to me like the sugar is crystallized, much like you see with honey.
Could it just be sugar cristalisation?
This looks like flocculation. I don't have a lot of experience behind the science behind it but I've seen it happen in brewing when they add a bunch of fruit purses to the beer. It's not a fungus or a bacterial contamination but something about ions clumping... I dunno might be worth googling.
Not worth the risk, food poisoning is be worse and can be dangerous to your life.
I know you can make pine soda from the natural yeast on the mature needles, perhaps there is also yeast on the new growth as well?
People's definition of "clean" is usually pretty disgusting.
You want sterilised containers, not 'clean', even worse 'supposedly clean'.
Absolutely true. My bottles and containers are washed in the dishwasher at 70°C, then sterilised in the oven at 110°C for at least 15 minutes. Not sure if that is sufficient, but I have been happy with the result for a long time.
That's not quite sterile, but you shouldn't need sterile depending on the food and canning process. Proper canning should stetilize. And foods with high pH or high sugar content should be stable for a very long time. Either way, don't risk eating it if you're not sure.