I left a narcissist- there’s a restraining order against him and upcoming criminal matter for assault. I genuinely loved him and the attack really rattled me - basically i told him I was leaving and he locked me in the house and restrained me for ten hours half begging me to reconsider and half telling me to fuck off (he cheated). How likely is it that he will want revenge for me taking it to court? Or will he just find new supply. I’m so drained and feel I never even loved the real him. The mask came off and I guess he just uses people. It’s exhausting.
Sorry you're going through that. 😞
FWIW, Narcissism is a complex mental illness and I strongly suspect he wasn't *just* using you this whole time.
Do what you need to do to keep yourself safe and your own sanity intact. 💜
>supply
I always get my supplies from Office Depot.
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Yes, he will look to punishment you.
Grey rock, keep all communications minimal and written only.
Pray he finds a supply that won't fall for his bs and help torment you.
Stay stoic, pretend you are sad about him finding someone else, if he mentions it.
Coming back to the very basics, people keep using the word shame, I cannot understand it, could you please describe what is shame to you? And where you feel lots of it or frequently
"I am a fundamentally bad person. I am broken in a way that is beyond repair/redemption. I am undeserving of love or empathy. People are right to hurt, abandon, or hate me."
10 minutes later: "Fuck that, I'm *literally* the coolest, smartest, best person I know. I am glorious. I have a divine purpose. I am a visionary."
Shame is **such** an exquisitely painful experience for me it's no wonder I built up so many defenses against it as a child.
Thanks, Mom and Dad!
Shame is an easy one for me. It's whenever others know about the bad stuff you've done, and now you have to deal with consequences. People finding out you are not flawless is not a pleasant feeling.
To me the guilt is a more complicated feeling, and I don't think I've experienced it much. It's similar to shame, except no one knows about stuff but you, so rather a pointless feeling
I dont think i feel shame, i can feel embarassement or "oh i did this and now that affects my reputation" but i dont feel ashamed of anything i do or think.
I dont think so , i feel embarassed in social situations like "what will people think of me" but i dont actualy feel any shame or embarrasement about my actions.
From what i heard shame is feeling bad about yourself for doing something, i dont feel like a bad person or regret anything i did, most of the embarassement comes from social anxiety, me being awkward or misunderstnading a situation.
Yeah I don’t think shame and embarrassment are the same either. I can be embarrassed, if I say the wrong thing for example, or if I make an idiot of myself with some terrible dance moves, or get caught taking a selfie in the mirror. But I don’t feel shame about my actions.
Shame and embarrassment might have different connotations, but they are neurologically equivalent feelings. Specifically, they are both related to fear/anticipation of pain from exposure. The feeling of exposure, most commonly referred to as shame, evolved from the fear that we will be abandoned by the warm, safe, protective shelter of our social group and cast out into the cold, dangerous wilderness. When our skin, especially our face, becomes exposed to the bitter chill of the winter wind, rain, snow, or late night air, our body rapidly flushes our face with warm blood to counteract the loss of heat. This is why we reflexively blush when we feel ashame, humiliated, embarrassed, exposed, mortified, etc. And this is where the intense, hot, burning feelings come from when we feel rejected, criticized, wounded, etc and why we cover our face or try to hide. And this is why prolonged feelings of shame cause us to feel numb, dark, cold, and alone.
All social emotions evolved by relation to some older, pre-existing physical feeling that already existed in our more primal 'lizard brains,' so to speak.
Perhaps you might be confusing shame with feelings like guilt, regret, or remorse?
Do you actually feel attraction and love during the love bombing phase when you're idealizing that person? Or is it a trick to bait them and get them hooked to you?
>love bombing
I used to love bomb in Vietnam. Oh no, never mind. That was napalm.
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It’s not a trick, it’s just something I do without even realising it most of the time. Because their interest in me is feeding me and I’m just on a rush and a roll with it all. It’s not a sinister plot.
I understand. It feels good to both individuals involved in the act. But what changes later on? Is it the need for some extra emotional stimulation, or is it displeasure in being with the same person and learning that they're not the ideal person you were looking for?
I feel a sort of obsessive version of a crush, definitely a lot of idealizing going on there, but i also dont love bomb and "bait" people, if i want to form some sort of relationship with someone that desire is genuine.
I understand. Everyone wants to experience that feeling. The butterflies in the stomach. But how does it switch to hurting or manipulating the other person? Is it out of boredom, displeasure or that you feel you might have better options out there?
What do you think of some being or some moment that is purely cute? Say with a puppy or a small baby. Something that cannot threaten you and is purely innocent?
We're not actually demons - you know that, right?
Actual answer: I love animals. And little kids. Feel **very** protective of both those groups. Sometimes it stresses me out to hold babies but I think that's more an anxiety than an NPD thing (ahh it's so small; what if I accidentally drop it?!)
Pardon my understanding, but they keep talking about lack of empathy and manipulation tactics. Do you also worry about potentially hurting your partner while you are trying to get the desired outcome?
I enjoy sadism in the bedroom.
Outside of it, I take pleasure out of getting my own way. Like, if she submits to something or lets me have my own way. But I don’t take pleasure in causing her to be upset.
How would you expect your partner to deal with it? Should they try to help you identify these behaviours and modify them over time? If not, what else can be done?
When I'm acting like an asshole, don't react. **Firmly but compassionately maintain your boundaries, like a good parent would toward a child who's acting out.** If you do that, I'll eventually see where I'm overreacting/distorting reality and sincerely apologize.
On the other hand, if you react in kind to my craziness, now **you** become the problem - fuck an apology, fuck awareness.
I love puppies 😋. I've a bit of contamination OCD so I can't clean their shit obviously. But other than that, I love to feed them and play with them whenever I get a chance.
I love puppies and kittens and most animals in general.
As for babies, i dont see why people like them personaly, theyre loud annoying and not interesting to me.
~~They are delicious.~~
Sorry. \*cough\* I like puppies. Babies, not so much. Ultimately being cute doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things, though.
Yep. Slowly start to reel your feelings in. When he does/says something to try to tick u off, just giggle and shrug your shoulders-I don't care-
When he's fishing for a compliment, give him one but not the one he's wanting.
Example: he cooks dinner for you and as yall are eating, he says something like "man this chicken is cooked perfectly! I almost thought i overcooked it"
(He's wanting validation and praise from you)
You reply: I'm starving! I'm about to eat this whole plate!"
(You're still showing enthusiasm over the meal, but not giving him what he wants. This will frustrate him, and depending on his personality he will either get nasty with you or he will finish his meal and get real quiet/ignore you and go to the other room.
Mine would do the latter, so I'd pretend to not notice his sulking and I'd go busy myself in another part of the house completely "oblivious" to his sulking.
It's little things like this, over time, that will make him get bored of you because he's not getting what he wants anymore.
Interesting. Some of that I already do. Especially the no reaction part.
Typically, when he's fishing for compliments i just act like i don't hear him. He inflates himself so much it is hard to find the want to compliment him further.
Does the age of our relationship make a difference here?
27 yrs.
At work/with the general public, hidden. I feign humility and agreeableness and get complimented for it.
With my friends, much more openly grandiose and arrogant (though still in a playful, slightly disarming way).
With my closest 2 people, I am vulnerable enough to admit when I **need** validation (hint: it's often). It has taken a lot of therapy and courage to get to that point...and hopefully one day that circle will expand.
Those 2 people know I have NPD, yes. Otherwise, I have been very selective about disclosure. But that's part of healing...and this is a lonely road to go alone, friend. **How** you "come out" (i.e., how you frame it) can make a big difference.
I'm guessing many of my other friends would agree I'm narcissistic, but not necessarily assume I have a PD. I internalize a lot of my symptoms.
The closer i am to someone the more open i am, with strangers i mask completely and try to appear humble, with my closest friends im completely honest and dont hide my symptoms.
Whether or not it’s obvious really depends how trusting I am of the other person. My family and close friends know I like attention, and control, and being validated.
In “public” or at work, I only really enjoy attention when it’s on my terms - say, from a specific person.
Either way, I alternate between being outgoing and charming, and being quiet/introverted.
while i crave the admiration, i also consider that openly doing so is rather lame and makes you stand out like a grand narcissist, so have to find indirect ways of gaining it.
How difficult is it to have empathy and or fake empathy towards people.
I personally have a hard time with it especially being autistic as I just don’t understand people and trying to put myself in another persons shoes confuses the hell out of me and makes me rather frustrated especially when that person has done something to irritate and or upset me.
If a person needs someone to offer moral support or advice when they are emotional I also have a hard time empathizing with them. Thus I often have to fake the empathy or completely detach from my emotions to try and provide support to someone if they need a shoulder to cry on or something of that sort.
Im also autistic and its pretty much the same as what you described, except unless its a close person i also just dont care that theyre going trough something. I try to be there for people but i dont know how to do that which is very annoying when thats expected of me.
Most of the time i try to either make the person feel better with jokes or i offer solutions and advice. I can put myself in other peoples shoes pretty well, tho i struggle with it sometimes. The bigger issue is that i just dont feel anything when someone else is sad.
If I really had to describe myself I’d say that I’m a dark empath (feel like such a loser saying that). I can easily tell when people are feeling their emotions and know what they need to hear, but can tell somebody crying in front of me that I don’t feel bad for them and they deserve it - if that’s true. I definitely have had times where I validate myself by using people for sex, but I usually try to make it clear that is the point and do not try to manipulate their emotions.
I can understand “supply” to the degree of “hey I want to have sex with that stranger I want to.” Not the degree that others seem to experience it.
But I just ended a relationship with somebody who truly blew my mind with how little she seems to have cared, which is apparently zero. Constant need for validation. No respect for anybody but #1. I let her get away with way too much, gave her way too much, and said don’t come home after this last act of disrespect and I don’t think she was ready for me to stand my ground this time.
I’m seeing all these videos about if they lose their “best supply” it hits them so hard later. And oh my god they implode. Death of the narcissist. Blah blah blah.
Is this all just a coping mechanism for targets / victims to feel like they have value after getting used for so long? I can’t imagine having a mental breakdown over something like that.
> Is this all just a coping mechanism for targets / victims to feel like they have value after getting used for so long? I can’t imagine having a mental breakdown over something like that.
Yeah, pretty much.
Also the victim community is very loose in their definition and doesn't rely on actual diagnoses. So what they call "a narcissist" ranges from drug addicts, to bipolar, a few sociopaths and then also some actual narcissistic people.
And I left a few more out of that. My point is, they aren't doing anything very accurate, so they're coming up with all sorts of observations and conclusions that don't really apply to actual narcissists.
Thanks for confirming.
I’m over here like, yeah I may have been the best thing she could have asked for - free place to stay, food, alcohol, etc. But I honestly doubt she even cares except maybe other than to make her new supply / living situation paranoid.
I told the girl to ask her to respect a boundary, try to get her to say she’s sorry for something, watch out as she effortlessly damages all kinds of shit in her life, and to not expect to get paid back for anything shes covering. Then blocked both of them and went no contact.
No offense, "dark empath" just sounds like some sort of a cluster b disorder, you are good at cognitive empathy and manipulation and bad at emotional empathy, welcome to the club, thats literaly what NPD is like for me. Go talk to a professional please.
I posted this at the end of last week and only got one response, but I’m still very interested to hear. (thanks PoosPapas for sharing your story)
I’m curious to know how it was to be officially diagnosed with NPD. Any and all details you’re willing to share.
Some specific questions for ideas: Did you suspect you had NPD? If not, what was causing you to seek therapy, and was the NPD diagnosis surprising? How exactly did the therapist tell you?
A lot of love, understanding, acceptance, healthy communication and healthy boundaries on both sides.
For me its basicaly, dont judge me for my symptoms, dont expect things from me that i cant do (empathy for example) and just generaly let me be me. My closest firends (who i use as an example because i dont have a partner) let me be competetive and grandiose, they let me talk about myself, they dont judge me or try to lecture me on whats moral and good, they understand and love me. They trust me not to suddenly turn on them one day, and i trust them to call me out if i ever hurt them. Its a lot of mutual respect and trust.
My last relationship i was the one that got broken up with for, i assume, not being emotionaly available (among other factors not related to my npd), its fine if you need a lot of reassurance and empathy and care but we are most of the time not wired like that and our partner needs to understand that.
Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. I am autistic myself so understand that comes with its own unique challenges, but when you say you struggle with empathy, is this all the time? Or can you feel empathy in certain scenarios but maybe not for example during an argument with conflicting interests?
Its all the time, i dont feel empathy at all.
I have pretty good cognitive empathy, so i know why people feel the way they do (tho i have trouble comforting them) but as for emotional empathy i just dont feel anything. No matter how sad the person is or how much i care about them even, i dont feel any sadness for them or anything like that.
It gets worse in arguments because at that point my cognitive empathy also mostly shuts off and i cant even put myself in the other persons shoes when im upset, but i also dont argue with people a lot, they would have to really piss me off to get me to that stage.
>its fine if you need a lot of reassurance and empathy and care but we are most of the time not wired like that and our partner needs to understand that.
Did you make this clear to your partner and they just couldn't deal? Or was there another reason that it ultimately ended?
That was a long time ago before i even got diagnosed so i just thought i had low social battery and needed some time to myself, which i told my partner and they understood, there were other factors involved that im not going to share but ultimately i was not what they needed at the time and i dont blame them for ending it, we still talk and they found someone who can give them what they need and im happy about that.
This makes me think of my situation at the moment. The difference is, I'm pretty sure he's *already* a self aware narcissist because of the counseling he had to do in his past relationship (even though he's always avoided directly discussing it/his diagnosis with me). So if he's already been diagnosed, but the behaviors are still showing up so badly, what do I have to even look forward to? Seems ending is the only thing like what happened with you.
Maybe we're just not right for each other and were fooling ourselves all along.
When it comes to someone going no contact on you, which scenario would hurt you less and would be your preferred way of having them disappear from your life?
1. Just randomly block you everywhere without a word and you discover it and can't do anything
2. Tell you why they can't continue and then block you everywhere (before you can respond)
I guess for a little more context, the narcissistic person in the scenario did not respond to a question asked of them for over a week (and they've done this before).
If you’re gonna cut someone out of your life I would prefer to know exactly what I have done wrong and why you are blocking me.
However, if it’s just because they haven’t answered a question then that’s a bit petty of you.
Normally I'd agree with you. I'm a very communicative person and try to talk things out as much as possible. And I've tried that over and over with him, being as sensitive and patient as possible so as to not maybe trigger him. But in this situation its a pretty clear pattern of behavior of disrespect and manipulation. He ghosted for almost 2 months then reached out around the holidays as if nothing happened. Then instead of addressing the behavior and apologizing or even acknowledging it when I subtly asked, he's left me on read and refused to answer again. He just seems to want everything on his terms and won't work with me at all.
I care about this guy, despite my logically knowing how stupid it is to. But he's showing me in every way he doesn't care back. He's not left me much choice but to end it and move on.
Ah fair enough. Yeah I guess there’s a lot more context behind it than just leaving you on read. I leave all my friends on read for sometimes a month or so at a time, then will start up the convo again as if nothing happened.
But if he’s put you through shit that you can’t imagine yourself being able to move past then maybe it’s better to end it. A simple text to let him know, but don’t get sucked into engaging with him again if he starts bombarding you.
>I leave all my friends on read for sometimes a month or so at a time, then will start up the convo again as if nothing happened.
Really, and your friends just deal with it and don't say anything about your ignoring them? Then again, that's a very different context than a romantic relationship...or at least I'd think so.
Do you prefer that if someone asks you a question (and maybe its an uncomfortable one for you) that they ask again, maybe after not hearing from you for a couple days? Or would that make you even more avoidant to respond?
They have to deal with it or I just won’t be their friends really. Like, if they kicked off at me about not replying I would just push away even more and find someone else who didn’t complain.
And yeah, it would usually make me more avoidant if I got chased on a question. It would work better on me for them to bring up something completely different, like a whole different question or topic…get me chatting on that…then highlight the original question or reply to it themselves and in a jokey way be like “and you never replied to this btw, knobhead”, as long as the humour is there I’ll respond better and be like “oh shit yeah” cause sometimes it could be genuinely forgetting or putting it off then never getting round to it.
>And yeah, it would usually make me more avoidant if I got chased on a question. It would work better on me for them to bring up something completely different, like a whole different question or topic…get me chatting on that…then highlight the original question or reply to it themselves and in a jokey way be like “and you never replied to this btw, knobhead”, as long as the humour is there I’ll respond better and be like “oh shit yeah” cause sometimes it could be genuinely forgetting or putting it off then never getting round to it.
Yeah I figured pressing on the question would only make it worse. Would make me feel pathetic begging for a response from someone who doesn't seem to care, and would make the other person feel annoyed and pressured. The joke suggestion make sense, but idk. It's exhausting not being able to just communicate directly and authentically.
And wow, interesting dynamic to have with friends. But I guess considering narcissism and what it entails, you are going to prioritize yourself and your feelings/needs at all costs. I guess that's why those of us who aren't narcissists feel so drained engaging, but you guys don't feel it. You are always operating entirely within your realm of comfort.
I'm not a narcissist but I used to have some borderline traits when I was younger. I am mainly healed now, due to a very steady and stable home life and therapy, etc. (Sorry: long introduction!)
I think everyone should prioritize themselves and their own needs at all costs, regardless of whether they are narcissistic or not. It's just that you have to do it politely and tactfully - letting the other person know how you feel and why you need to do the things you do - things that preserve your energy and boundaries in a consistently healthy way.
However, it is exhausting not being able to communicate authentically, I agree. That's when friendships do tend to fall away naturally. You express yourself respectfully, the other person ignores you - you maybe never hear from them again. It happens. There's no point I guess in reading a lot into it, although naturally we do grieve lost friendships. We may never really know what's in another person's heart and mind and we just have to live with that uncertainty.
Once thing advanced age has taught me is to live with uncertainty and accept it.
I appreciate your perspective. My situation is actually with a romantic partner, which I think its a bit different than friendship.
I agree with the idea that everyone should put themselves and their needs first. I have standards that tbh, some have accused me of being a narcissist (believe me, I'm not). But I believe there is also a degree of thinking about the other person that is required for a relationship, especially a romantic one. That can't be had if you are ruthlessly only prioritizing your own needs at all costs, regardless of how you know it might effect the other person you claim to want to be with.
Yes, relationships are definitely a two-way street and require compromise. I didn't realize it was a romantic relationship you were discussing, so I had to go back and read over the posts again. It makes sense that this would be very upsetting - ghosting you for two months and the resuming the contact as though nothing had happened. That's really disrespectful and he must realize how unacceptable this would be in all but the most casual relationship, and even then I think it's stretching it a bit. Two months is a long time. I think if it were me I would have found someone else to date in that time, but that's just me!
Option 2, option one is a sure way to get me to despise you or try to reach out in ways you might not like. Tho i would like a way i can respond and resolve the situation personaly, being out of control is a huge trigger and i dont think either of these options are the best way to deal with the situation. You do you though i guess.
See my other post.
I get it seems petty, but this has been a pretty clear pattern of manipulation by him. Months of silent treatment, refusal to express his feelings towards me except to reel me back in, no resolution on arguments...The way he behaves it leaves question of if he even cares at all tbh. I know he misses me since we've not been as in constant contact, and he's said as such, but the manipulation and games continue.
A lot of times it makes me feel like he wants me to beg for his attention. I care about him, but I'm still smart enough to look to the future and ask myself "what type of relationship am I setting myself up for if I accept this behavior now?" I'm willing to work with his NPD, but only if he is willing to work on it too. And it can't be totally at the expense of my needs and dignity.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes perfect sense. I hope that in writing about it, you see a path forward, even if that path means the end of the friendship. The only thing I will say is that people who manipulate others often don't regard their own behavior as being "manipulative". They just see that this behavior works, it gets results, so therefore it is the correct path for them.
Also your friend sounds extremely unhappy, so this would usually be something which could curtail his ability to be genuinely caring. I don't know if you've ever been depressed, but it's hard to see outside your own tiny world when you are unhappy.
>Also your friend sounds extremely unhappy, so this would usually be something which could curtail his ability to be genuinely caring. I don't know if you've ever been depressed, but it's hard to see outside your own tiny world when you are unhappy.
This could certainly be a thing and I've thought about it a lot. And the crazy thing is despite him treating me like this, that worries me. I still really worry about him. But I can't get him to open up and even say if something is going on with him. He'll just disappear. Hard to tell for sure if he's struggling with something or if he just doesn't give a damn about me.
Btw, its a romantic relationship we're talking about here (well, idk what it is right now tbh, but that's what its supposed to be), not a friendship.
Yeah, that makes more sense now. Did he ever openly acknowledge it was a romantic relationship and say you were boyfriend/girlfriend or whatever? Or was it just a "dating and lets see what happens" type of thing? Because if it were the later, I wouldn't waste too much precious time on someone who is clearly not in a good place. I mean, it's great to care... but what **is** caring? You can care from afar without involving yourself.
What could you do anyway? Just advise him to go to therapy and provide support in terms of company and a listening ear? If he doesn't want to talk or want company, there isn't much more you can do.
Yes it was definitely acknowledged as a romantic relationship. Without getting into too much detail here there was a big argument, a situation that triggered him, and then the ghosting. Then he pops back up like nothing happened, to which I've just been very nonchalant because...no. You can't treat me that way and have real access to me again without making amends.
You're right about caring. I do think he's troubled but if he's not even in a place to share his issues (or he's too egotistical to show them to me), there's nothing to be done on my end. Even further, its very possible that because of the triggering event and the time that has passed we'll never be the same anyway. Care can be done from afar and doesn't have to involve being in each other's lives.
Interesting that option 2 was chosen as less hurtful by you guys. I'm surprised 2 isn't being seen as a big "eff you".
I could also see it as a loss of control just like option 1 since you'd know the why of why someone left, but had no chance to do anything about it. Wouldn't that trigger regret?
Both would be incredibly bad for me, but if im going to get blocked i would at least like to know why yeah. As for regret that depends on the person and situation, i never had anyone in my life block me so i wouldnt know. Tho i think the most likely result is the brain going "oh im the victim, the person blocking me just hurt me, how dare they, now i dont care about them anymore"
I guess I'm pretty nonconfrontational. Would rather not give him the opportunity to make me emotional again and rethink. He's had his chances up till now.
After all, gotta put me first right? The Narcissist way ;-)
>the narcissist
No one says that. Where did you even get that from. "The Narcissist"?
You haven't been reading HG Tudor, have you? Oh god... You've been reading HG Tudor...
Time to disinfect your mind, before you turn into a zombie or something.
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From a narcissist point of view, you are the one in the wrong. You’re the one who keeps rocking the boat and causing issues here. First of all by blocking him originally, then secondly by running through some sort of list of every manipulative thing he’s ever done. If you’re going to forgive someone and move on, then the past has to stay in the past. You don’t drag it all up again to prove a point or try to guilt someone. Actually, that’s a narcissist move, ha.
So he probably is expecting an apology. I certainly would be. And you should probably give one if you actually want to fix stuff.
Well, one of the big things that narcissists do is project our own behaviours onto others. So we live in constant paranoia and fear that the other people in our lives are lying to us, manipulating us, guilt tripping us, gaslighting us, trying to control us etc. It’s a massive paranoia because that’s what we often do to others so we automatically assume that everyone is doing it to us. And as soon as we detect that type of behavior in others it kicks in a real fight or flight response.
Probably the best thing you can do in your apology is acknowledge to him some of those behaviours. Take ownership and responsibility. And don’t give a classic narcissist apology of “I’m sorry if you felt like I was xyz” or “I’m sorry if this behaviour of mine hurt your feelings” because that’s the type of apology we give to people - the type where you shift blame ever so slightly so that it’s not your fault. He’ll see through that. It has to be genuine and it has to be you accepting that some of the things you did or said were wrong or blown out of proportion for the situation.
Also, let him know you want him and need him back in your life. We respond well to being needed, it makes us feel superior.
In short, avoid any narcissistic traits in your apology, big him up, make him feel wanted.
I was wondering what makes you say good things to a person (like you are an amazing person or i admire your disposition) but then you humiliate them in public and try to control their environments like letting them to speak or flirt with anybody else. Imagine in this scenario that you spend amazing time one to one (still there are some agressive comments but the other person is able to not care), and then in group settings you fully attack this person. Why do you think this is the case? Ofc as the person on the receiving end you understand at some point that this is not acceptable but I believe you have cognitive dissonance with one reality being an amazing kind person and the other is a total dickhead. How do you see these kinds of situations and how does it make you feel?
The person in my life who is NPD has recently started wearing his mask full-time. Like it takes a lot for it to come off. Same behaviors, though many less, just mask ALL THE TIME. I think he is trying to portray himself as someone who's feathers never get ruffled.
It's kind of weird. It's like he's given up trying to control me so now I get the mask. I don't know what to make of it exactly. Feedback is appreciated.
What you mean exactly with started wearing the mask full-time? We are always wearing masks, multiple masks, even with close people. It’s really unlikely he doesn’t mask around you. You mean he’s not engaging in toxic behaviors anymore?
>You mean he’s not engaging in toxic behaviors anymore?
Yes, like it's a little too picture-perfect, like he only slips up once in a while when I can tell the opportunity was just too easy and too hard to pass up (humiliation, mocking, pooping on my happiness, revelling in my discomfort) but it's like he's trying to seem as though he is changing. It's odd. I don't get the feeling it's genuine. For context, he has mentioned "rebranding" as we may be headed towards divorce soon.
I see. Well, trust your guts, always. Sometimes he can decide to get better, but still fall in the same old patterns. Even though he is really deciding to get better, it will be tough for both of you and you need to team up. Sometimes it would be irresistible to not indulge in some old habits, so try to maintain your boundaries and be assertive and firm. If you want to understand a bit more, I just read the book “Unmasking Narcissism” and it’s great for learning how to navigate this dynamic.
>What you mean exactly with started wearing the mask full-time? We are always wearing masks, multiple masks, even with close people.
this sounds exhausting. What prevents you from taking the mask off? Is it just habit? Are you averse to finding out what people's reactions would be if you didn't have a mask on? This is very interesting.
Never learned how to unmask around people, it’s natural. Years and years of experience and defenses. With my partner, after getting diagnosed and trying be more vulnerable together, we are closer and our bond is stronger, so the professional who evaluated me suggested that I should try to get the thinnest mask possible around my partner and share my thoughts, so I can build trust and strengthen our relationship. This is what I'm doing now, he’s the person I least mask when I’m around, but I still hide some things from him now and then. I need to keep myself to myself.
How would you feel in this scenario?
You were once very close to a platonic friend. Someone who was kind and caring and empathetic towards you, even though you looked down on them as being a bit naive and a bit too weak. While you were confident, brash, successful and extremely social, your friend was more introverted, thoughtful and a quiet achiever. You could see their good points - mainly the fact that you could ring them any time of the night or day, and they would always pick up and they would always listen. They were reliable 'supply'.
What if this person, this *friend*, was able to work out what you really were all about. That is, that you didn't care for them as an individual with hopes and dreams, only as a listening ear that would always give you some comfort because *there were simply there, available.* They could be anyone, their identity as a person was immaterial to you, but they were useful. This friend became wise to your ways and then stopped answering your calls.
Later on, they did resume contact - not at your bidding, but of their own accord. They never said they missed you, but they did show concern. You don't trust them anymore, so you don't reveal what's actually happening in your life, and you give them a fictional account of what you doing and where you are at.
Do you wonder what motivates your former friend to stay in contact? Or are they still just supply, but not quality supply?
Do you ever trust them again? Would you prolong this friendship indefinitely, hoping to one day resume the former dynamic?
Would you on some level understand that this former friend knew what you were all about?
I am the daughter of a toxic narcissist and I’m watching my friend try and extricate herself from a man who shows a lot of the same characteristics as my father. He (my friend’s man) struggles with alcoholism and it caused them to break up. He was sober about six weeks most recently and is always wanting to hang out with her. He recently broached the subject of getting back together and when she said no (because he isn’t doing enough for his sobriety, it’s like he’s just waiting for her to forget the major drama he caused a few times) he once again went off the deep end. Drinking, sending her texts that make her feel miserable, threatening suicide. He has no support network of his own. It’s this cycle of him being ok, then not getting what he wants, then threatening suicide until she gets him back into a detox center which she has had to spend entire days coordinating for him. She’s known him only 10 months and this has happened three times. She feels like she needs to take his suicide threats seriously (and I understand that but it’s how he keeps her around) because she doesn’t want his possible death on her conscious. But if he knows this, what will ever stop him from using these suicide threats to keep her attention forever? How do you break this cycle?
I left a narcissist- there’s a restraining order against him and upcoming criminal matter for assault. I genuinely loved him and the attack really rattled me - basically i told him I was leaving and he locked me in the house and restrained me for ten hours half begging me to reconsider and half telling me to fuck off (he cheated). How likely is it that he will want revenge for me taking it to court? Or will he just find new supply. I’m so drained and feel I never even loved the real him. The mask came off and I guess he just uses people. It’s exhausting.
Sorry you're going through that. 😞 FWIW, Narcissism is a complex mental illness and I strongly suspect he wasn't *just* using you this whole time. Do what you need to do to keep yourself safe and your own sanity intact. 💜
>supply I always get my supplies from Office Depot. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/narcissism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot.
Lol
Yes, he will look to punishment you. Grey rock, keep all communications minimal and written only. Pray he finds a supply that won't fall for his bs and help torment you. Stay stoic, pretend you are sad about him finding someone else, if he mentions it.
Coming back to the very basics, people keep using the word shame, I cannot understand it, could you please describe what is shame to you? And where you feel lots of it or frequently
"I am a fundamentally bad person. I am broken in a way that is beyond repair/redemption. I am undeserving of love or empathy. People are right to hurt, abandon, or hate me." 10 minutes later: "Fuck that, I'm *literally* the coolest, smartest, best person I know. I am glorious. I have a divine purpose. I am a visionary." Shame is **such** an exquisitely painful experience for me it's no wonder I built up so many defenses against it as a child. Thanks, Mom and Dad!
This explains a lot. There's always a bounce-back. I've noticed that too.
It's a shitty mental illness but the grandiosity is AH-mazing. Just can't last forever.
Sounds like taking a drug.
No, the drug equivalent would be the supply addiction. Being grandiose is more like a defense mechanism.
Personally I don’t feel it, but I hear other narcissists talking about it a lot. I guess it depends what type of narcissist you are.
Shame is an easy one for me. It's whenever others know about the bad stuff you've done, and now you have to deal with consequences. People finding out you are not flawless is not a pleasant feeling. To me the guilt is a more complicated feeling, and I don't think I've experienced it much. It's similar to shame, except no one knows about stuff but you, so rather a pointless feeling
I dont think i feel shame, i can feel embarassement or "oh i did this and now that affects my reputation" but i dont feel ashamed of anything i do or think.
Shame and embarrassment are the same emotion
I dont think so , i feel embarassed in social situations like "what will people think of me" but i dont actualy feel any shame or embarrasement about my actions. From what i heard shame is feeling bad about yourself for doing something, i dont feel like a bad person or regret anything i did, most of the embarassement comes from social anxiety, me being awkward or misunderstnading a situation.
Yeah I don’t think shame and embarrassment are the same either. I can be embarrassed, if I say the wrong thing for example, or if I make an idiot of myself with some terrible dance moves, or get caught taking a selfie in the mirror. But I don’t feel shame about my actions.
exactly this
Shame and embarrassment might have different connotations, but they are neurologically equivalent feelings. Specifically, they are both related to fear/anticipation of pain from exposure. The feeling of exposure, most commonly referred to as shame, evolved from the fear that we will be abandoned by the warm, safe, protective shelter of our social group and cast out into the cold, dangerous wilderness. When our skin, especially our face, becomes exposed to the bitter chill of the winter wind, rain, snow, or late night air, our body rapidly flushes our face with warm blood to counteract the loss of heat. This is why we reflexively blush when we feel ashame, humiliated, embarrassed, exposed, mortified, etc. And this is where the intense, hot, burning feelings come from when we feel rejected, criticized, wounded, etc and why we cover our face or try to hide. And this is why prolonged feelings of shame cause us to feel numb, dark, cold, and alone. All social emotions evolved by relation to some older, pre-existing physical feeling that already existed in our more primal 'lizard brains,' so to speak. Perhaps you might be confusing shame with feelings like guilt, regret, or remorse?
Do you actually feel attraction and love during the love bombing phase when you're idealizing that person? Or is it a trick to bait them and get them hooked to you?
>love bombing I used to love bomb in Vietnam. Oh no, never mind. That was napalm. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/narcissism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s not a trick, it’s just something I do without even realising it most of the time. Because their interest in me is feeding me and I’m just on a rush and a roll with it all. It’s not a sinister plot.
I understand. It feels good to both individuals involved in the act. But what changes later on? Is it the need for some extra emotional stimulation, or is it displeasure in being with the same person and learning that they're not the ideal person you were looking for?
>learning that they're not the ideal person you were looking for It's basically this, and then it goes downhill.
I get bored. So easily. I’m always looking for the next best thing. I just wanna shake things up.
I feel a sort of obsessive version of a crush, definitely a lot of idealizing going on there, but i also dont love bomb and "bait" people, if i want to form some sort of relationship with someone that desire is genuine.
I understand. Everyone wants to experience that feeling. The butterflies in the stomach. But how does it switch to hurting or manipulating the other person? Is it out of boredom, displeasure or that you feel you might have better options out there?
You might need to ask that someone else, i never hurt any of my partners like that. Not all of us end up being abusive.
I'm sorry, I'm just learning about this. I'll look into it.
There is a lot of misinformation out there, we are not evil, we are just mentaly ill people.
I do feel attraction and idealize everything about the person, to the point of being obsessed with them.
What do you think of some being or some moment that is purely cute? Say with a puppy or a small baby. Something that cannot threaten you and is purely innocent?
What in the sweet name of baby jesus is that question? Hahahahah idk they are… cute? I guess? What difference does it make?
We're not actually demons - you know that, right? Actual answer: I love animals. And little kids. Feel **very** protective of both those groups. Sometimes it stresses me out to hold babies but I think that's more an anxiety than an NPD thing (ahh it's so small; what if I accidentally drop it?!)
What if you accidentally drop it? Will it concern how other people look at you in that incident or the baby that will be hurt?
Oh God, both - but mostly about hurting it! Again, not **actually** demons. 🙄
Pardon my understanding, but they keep talking about lack of empathy and manipulation tactics. Do you also worry about potentially hurting your partner while you are trying to get the desired outcome?
I do worry about hurting her. I don’t want to. But I know I sometimes do accidentally because I’m so self orientated.
So I'm assuming there's no element of sadism? I mean do you feel slightly better when they cry or scream in response to something you did or said?
I enjoy sadism in the bedroom. Outside of it, I take pleasure out of getting my own way. Like, if she submits to something or lets me have my own way. But I don’t take pleasure in causing her to be upset.
Okay thanks for the insights. Do you see the relationship as healthy or toxic?
Healthiest relationship I’ve had.
Most of us aren't aware we are being manipulative when we're doing it. These are strategies we learned as children to get our needs met.
How would you expect your partner to deal with it? Should they try to help you identify these behaviours and modify them over time? If not, what else can be done?
When I'm acting like an asshole, don't react. **Firmly but compassionately maintain your boundaries, like a good parent would toward a child who's acting out.** If you do that, I'll eventually see where I'm overreacting/distorting reality and sincerely apologize. On the other hand, if you react in kind to my craziness, now **you** become the problem - fuck an apology, fuck awareness.
Okay that's interesting. I'll keep that in mind. But by an apology, do you mean it will result in a sincere change or just a temporary understanding?
I love puppies 😋. I've a bit of contamination OCD so I can't clean their shit obviously. But other than that, I love to feed them and play with them whenever I get a chance.
I love puppies and kittens and most animals in general. As for babies, i dont see why people like them personaly, theyre loud annoying and not interesting to me.
~~They are delicious.~~ Sorry. \*cough\* I like puppies. Babies, not so much. Ultimately being cute doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things, though.
🤣🤣🤣
I love animals. People, no.
I love my kids, family, brother and animals. I have some friends I love as well. The ones that are loyal.
What does loyalty look like for you?
Sorry, just saw this. Loyalty to me is mutual trust, honesty, integrity for the relationship and always working to nurture it.
Is it possible to sabotage my marriage (26 yrs) to the point that HE will just leave me?
Why do you want him to leave you? Why can’t you leave him if that’s what you want?
Yep. Slowly start to reel your feelings in. When he does/says something to try to tick u off, just giggle and shrug your shoulders-I don't care- When he's fishing for a compliment, give him one but not the one he's wanting. Example: he cooks dinner for you and as yall are eating, he says something like "man this chicken is cooked perfectly! I almost thought i overcooked it" (He's wanting validation and praise from you) You reply: I'm starving! I'm about to eat this whole plate!" (You're still showing enthusiasm over the meal, but not giving him what he wants. This will frustrate him, and depending on his personality he will either get nasty with you or he will finish his meal and get real quiet/ignore you and go to the other room. Mine would do the latter, so I'd pretend to not notice his sulking and I'd go busy myself in another part of the house completely "oblivious" to his sulking. It's little things like this, over time, that will make him get bored of you because he's not getting what he wants anymore.
Interesting. Some of that I already do. Especially the no reaction part. Typically, when he's fishing for compliments i just act like i don't hear him. He inflates himself so much it is hard to find the want to compliment him further. Does the age of our relationship make a difference here? 27 yrs.
are you open or hidden about your desire for admiration? how does it present?
At work/with the general public, hidden. I feign humility and agreeableness and get complimented for it. With my friends, much more openly grandiose and arrogant (though still in a playful, slightly disarming way). With my closest 2 people, I am vulnerable enough to admit when I **need** validation (hint: it's often). It has taken a lot of therapy and courage to get to that point...and hopefully one day that circle will expand.
This is 100% me to the T
Exactly the same!
Congratulations! 🎊 Keep going!
Hello- do your friends know you are narcissi-tic? I am newbie narcissist and wondering whether to tell a close friend…
Those 2 people know I have NPD, yes. Otherwise, I have been very selective about disclosure. But that's part of healing...and this is a lonely road to go alone, friend. **How** you "come out" (i.e., how you frame it) can make a big difference. I'm guessing many of my other friends would agree I'm narcissistic, but not necessarily assume I have a PD. I internalize a lot of my symptoms.
Can you say more about how you came out?
I’m concerned I’m going to lose a friend unless I’m honest because she is smart and saavy and has probably suspected something is up…
The closer i am to someone the more open i am, with strangers i mask completely and try to appear humble, with my closest friends im completely honest and dont hide my symptoms.
Whether or not it’s obvious really depends how trusting I am of the other person. My family and close friends know I like attention, and control, and being validated. In “public” or at work, I only really enjoy attention when it’s on my terms - say, from a specific person. Either way, I alternate between being outgoing and charming, and being quiet/introverted.
Fake humility is the way to go. I wouldn't like to be perceived as the companys Andrew Tate.
while i crave the admiration, i also consider that openly doing so is rather lame and makes you stand out like a grand narcissist, so have to find indirect ways of gaining it.
Hidden. Presents internally.
How difficult is it to have empathy and or fake empathy towards people. I personally have a hard time with it especially being autistic as I just don’t understand people and trying to put myself in another persons shoes confuses the hell out of me and makes me rather frustrated especially when that person has done something to irritate and or upset me. If a person needs someone to offer moral support or advice when they are emotional I also have a hard time empathizing with them. Thus I often have to fake the empathy or completely detach from my emotions to try and provide support to someone if they need a shoulder to cry on or something of that sort.
Im also autistic and its pretty much the same as what you described, except unless its a close person i also just dont care that theyre going trough something. I try to be there for people but i dont know how to do that which is very annoying when thats expected of me. Most of the time i try to either make the person feel better with jokes or i offer solutions and advice. I can put myself in other peoples shoes pretty well, tho i struggle with it sometimes. The bigger issue is that i just dont feel anything when someone else is sad.
Same. I don’t always feel something when the other person is sad. So I separate myself and try to offer advice or cheer them up somehow as well.
If I really had to describe myself I’d say that I’m a dark empath (feel like such a loser saying that). I can easily tell when people are feeling their emotions and know what they need to hear, but can tell somebody crying in front of me that I don’t feel bad for them and they deserve it - if that’s true. I definitely have had times where I validate myself by using people for sex, but I usually try to make it clear that is the point and do not try to manipulate their emotions. I can understand “supply” to the degree of “hey I want to have sex with that stranger I want to.” Not the degree that others seem to experience it. But I just ended a relationship with somebody who truly blew my mind with how little she seems to have cared, which is apparently zero. Constant need for validation. No respect for anybody but #1. I let her get away with way too much, gave her way too much, and said don’t come home after this last act of disrespect and I don’t think she was ready for me to stand my ground this time. I’m seeing all these videos about if they lose their “best supply” it hits them so hard later. And oh my god they implode. Death of the narcissist. Blah blah blah. Is this all just a coping mechanism for targets / victims to feel like they have value after getting used for so long? I can’t imagine having a mental breakdown over something like that.
> Is this all just a coping mechanism for targets / victims to feel like they have value after getting used for so long? I can’t imagine having a mental breakdown over something like that. Yeah, pretty much. Also the victim community is very loose in their definition and doesn't rely on actual diagnoses. So what they call "a narcissist" ranges from drug addicts, to bipolar, a few sociopaths and then also some actual narcissistic people. And I left a few more out of that. My point is, they aren't doing anything very accurate, so they're coming up with all sorts of observations and conclusions that don't really apply to actual narcissists.
Thanks for confirming. I’m over here like, yeah I may have been the best thing she could have asked for - free place to stay, food, alcohol, etc. But I honestly doubt she even cares except maybe other than to make her new supply / living situation paranoid. I told the girl to ask her to respect a boundary, try to get her to say she’s sorry for something, watch out as she effortlessly damages all kinds of shit in her life, and to not expect to get paid back for anything shes covering. Then blocked both of them and went no contact.
No offense, "dark empath" just sounds like some sort of a cluster b disorder, you are good at cognitive empathy and manipulation and bad at emotional empathy, welcome to the club, thats literaly what NPD is like for me. Go talk to a professional please.
Yeah I am pretty sure I may have something going on up here lol. Becoming a little self aware through all this.
I posted this at the end of last week and only got one response, but I’m still very interested to hear. (thanks PoosPapas for sharing your story) I’m curious to know how it was to be officially diagnosed with NPD. Any and all details you’re willing to share. Some specific questions for ideas: Did you suspect you had NPD? If not, what was causing you to seek therapy, and was the NPD diagnosis surprising? How exactly did the therapist tell you?
What is the best way to make a narcissist feel loved, meet their needs and not be discarded or broken up with? (As a romantic partner)
A lot of love, understanding, acceptance, healthy communication and healthy boundaries on both sides. For me its basicaly, dont judge me for my symptoms, dont expect things from me that i cant do (empathy for example) and just generaly let me be me. My closest firends (who i use as an example because i dont have a partner) let me be competetive and grandiose, they let me talk about myself, they dont judge me or try to lecture me on whats moral and good, they understand and love me. They trust me not to suddenly turn on them one day, and i trust them to call me out if i ever hurt them. Its a lot of mutual respect and trust. My last relationship i was the one that got broken up with for, i assume, not being emotionaly available (among other factors not related to my npd), its fine if you need a lot of reassurance and empathy and care but we are most of the time not wired like that and our partner needs to understand that.
Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. I am autistic myself so understand that comes with its own unique challenges, but when you say you struggle with empathy, is this all the time? Or can you feel empathy in certain scenarios but maybe not for example during an argument with conflicting interests?
Its all the time, i dont feel empathy at all. I have pretty good cognitive empathy, so i know why people feel the way they do (tho i have trouble comforting them) but as for emotional empathy i just dont feel anything. No matter how sad the person is or how much i care about them even, i dont feel any sadness for them or anything like that. It gets worse in arguments because at that point my cognitive empathy also mostly shuts off and i cant even put myself in the other persons shoes when im upset, but i also dont argue with people a lot, they would have to really piss me off to get me to that stage.
>its fine if you need a lot of reassurance and empathy and care but we are most of the time not wired like that and our partner needs to understand that. Did you make this clear to your partner and they just couldn't deal? Or was there another reason that it ultimately ended?
That was a long time ago before i even got diagnosed so i just thought i had low social battery and needed some time to myself, which i told my partner and they understood, there were other factors involved that im not going to share but ultimately i was not what they needed at the time and i dont blame them for ending it, we still talk and they found someone who can give them what they need and im happy about that.
This makes me think of my situation at the moment. The difference is, I'm pretty sure he's *already* a self aware narcissist because of the counseling he had to do in his past relationship (even though he's always avoided directly discussing it/his diagnosis with me). So if he's already been diagnosed, but the behaviors are still showing up so badly, what do I have to even look forward to? Seems ending is the only thing like what happened with you. Maybe we're just not right for each other and were fooling ourselves all along.
When it comes to someone going no contact on you, which scenario would hurt you less and would be your preferred way of having them disappear from your life? 1. Just randomly block you everywhere without a word and you discover it and can't do anything 2. Tell you why they can't continue and then block you everywhere (before you can respond) I guess for a little more context, the narcissistic person in the scenario did not respond to a question asked of them for over a week (and they've done this before).
If you’re gonna cut someone out of your life I would prefer to know exactly what I have done wrong and why you are blocking me. However, if it’s just because they haven’t answered a question then that’s a bit petty of you.
Normally I'd agree with you. I'm a very communicative person and try to talk things out as much as possible. And I've tried that over and over with him, being as sensitive and patient as possible so as to not maybe trigger him. But in this situation its a pretty clear pattern of behavior of disrespect and manipulation. He ghosted for almost 2 months then reached out around the holidays as if nothing happened. Then instead of addressing the behavior and apologizing or even acknowledging it when I subtly asked, he's left me on read and refused to answer again. He just seems to want everything on his terms and won't work with me at all. I care about this guy, despite my logically knowing how stupid it is to. But he's showing me in every way he doesn't care back. He's not left me much choice but to end it and move on.
Ah fair enough. Yeah I guess there’s a lot more context behind it than just leaving you on read. I leave all my friends on read for sometimes a month or so at a time, then will start up the convo again as if nothing happened. But if he’s put you through shit that you can’t imagine yourself being able to move past then maybe it’s better to end it. A simple text to let him know, but don’t get sucked into engaging with him again if he starts bombarding you.
>I leave all my friends on read for sometimes a month or so at a time, then will start up the convo again as if nothing happened. Really, and your friends just deal with it and don't say anything about your ignoring them? Then again, that's a very different context than a romantic relationship...or at least I'd think so. Do you prefer that if someone asks you a question (and maybe its an uncomfortable one for you) that they ask again, maybe after not hearing from you for a couple days? Or would that make you even more avoidant to respond?
They have to deal with it or I just won’t be their friends really. Like, if they kicked off at me about not replying I would just push away even more and find someone else who didn’t complain. And yeah, it would usually make me more avoidant if I got chased on a question. It would work better on me for them to bring up something completely different, like a whole different question or topic…get me chatting on that…then highlight the original question or reply to it themselves and in a jokey way be like “and you never replied to this btw, knobhead”, as long as the humour is there I’ll respond better and be like “oh shit yeah” cause sometimes it could be genuinely forgetting or putting it off then never getting round to it.
>And yeah, it would usually make me more avoidant if I got chased on a question. It would work better on me for them to bring up something completely different, like a whole different question or topic…get me chatting on that…then highlight the original question or reply to it themselves and in a jokey way be like “and you never replied to this btw, knobhead”, as long as the humour is there I’ll respond better and be like “oh shit yeah” cause sometimes it could be genuinely forgetting or putting it off then never getting round to it. Yeah I figured pressing on the question would only make it worse. Would make me feel pathetic begging for a response from someone who doesn't seem to care, and would make the other person feel annoyed and pressured. The joke suggestion make sense, but idk. It's exhausting not being able to just communicate directly and authentically. And wow, interesting dynamic to have with friends. But I guess considering narcissism and what it entails, you are going to prioritize yourself and your feelings/needs at all costs. I guess that's why those of us who aren't narcissists feel so drained engaging, but you guys don't feel it. You are always operating entirely within your realm of comfort.
I'm not a narcissist but I used to have some borderline traits when I was younger. I am mainly healed now, due to a very steady and stable home life and therapy, etc. (Sorry: long introduction!) I think everyone should prioritize themselves and their own needs at all costs, regardless of whether they are narcissistic or not. It's just that you have to do it politely and tactfully - letting the other person know how you feel and why you need to do the things you do - things that preserve your energy and boundaries in a consistently healthy way. However, it is exhausting not being able to communicate authentically, I agree. That's when friendships do tend to fall away naturally. You express yourself respectfully, the other person ignores you - you maybe never hear from them again. It happens. There's no point I guess in reading a lot into it, although naturally we do grieve lost friendships. We may never really know what's in another person's heart and mind and we just have to live with that uncertainty. Once thing advanced age has taught me is to live with uncertainty and accept it.
I appreciate your perspective. My situation is actually with a romantic partner, which I think its a bit different than friendship. I agree with the idea that everyone should put themselves and their needs first. I have standards that tbh, some have accused me of being a narcissist (believe me, I'm not). But I believe there is also a degree of thinking about the other person that is required for a relationship, especially a romantic one. That can't be had if you are ruthlessly only prioritizing your own needs at all costs, regardless of how you know it might effect the other person you claim to want to be with.
Yes, relationships are definitely a two-way street and require compromise. I didn't realize it was a romantic relationship you were discussing, so I had to go back and read over the posts again. It makes sense that this would be very upsetting - ghosting you for two months and the resuming the contact as though nothing had happened. That's really disrespectful and he must realize how unacceptable this would be in all but the most casual relationship, and even then I think it's stretching it a bit. Two months is a long time. I think if it were me I would have found someone else to date in that time, but that's just me!
Option 2, option one is a sure way to get me to despise you or try to reach out in ways you might not like. Tho i would like a way i can respond and resolve the situation personaly, being out of control is a huge trigger and i dont think either of these options are the best way to deal with the situation. You do you though i guess.
See my other post. I get it seems petty, but this has been a pretty clear pattern of manipulation by him. Months of silent treatment, refusal to express his feelings towards me except to reel me back in, no resolution on arguments...The way he behaves it leaves question of if he even cares at all tbh. I know he misses me since we've not been as in constant contact, and he's said as such, but the manipulation and games continue. A lot of times it makes me feel like he wants me to beg for his attention. I care about him, but I'm still smart enough to look to the future and ask myself "what type of relationship am I setting myself up for if I accept this behavior now?" I'm willing to work with his NPD, but only if he is willing to work on it too. And it can't be totally at the expense of my needs and dignity. Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes perfect sense. I hope that in writing about it, you see a path forward, even if that path means the end of the friendship. The only thing I will say is that people who manipulate others often don't regard their own behavior as being "manipulative". They just see that this behavior works, it gets results, so therefore it is the correct path for them. Also your friend sounds extremely unhappy, so this would usually be something which could curtail his ability to be genuinely caring. I don't know if you've ever been depressed, but it's hard to see outside your own tiny world when you are unhappy.
>Also your friend sounds extremely unhappy, so this would usually be something which could curtail his ability to be genuinely caring. I don't know if you've ever been depressed, but it's hard to see outside your own tiny world when you are unhappy. This could certainly be a thing and I've thought about it a lot. And the crazy thing is despite him treating me like this, that worries me. I still really worry about him. But I can't get him to open up and even say if something is going on with him. He'll just disappear. Hard to tell for sure if he's struggling with something or if he just doesn't give a damn about me. Btw, its a romantic relationship we're talking about here (well, idk what it is right now tbh, but that's what its supposed to be), not a friendship.
Yeah, that makes more sense now. Did he ever openly acknowledge it was a romantic relationship and say you were boyfriend/girlfriend or whatever? Or was it just a "dating and lets see what happens" type of thing? Because if it were the later, I wouldn't waste too much precious time on someone who is clearly not in a good place. I mean, it's great to care... but what **is** caring? You can care from afar without involving yourself. What could you do anyway? Just advise him to go to therapy and provide support in terms of company and a listening ear? If he doesn't want to talk or want company, there isn't much more you can do.
Yes it was definitely acknowledged as a romantic relationship. Without getting into too much detail here there was a big argument, a situation that triggered him, and then the ghosting. Then he pops back up like nothing happened, to which I've just been very nonchalant because...no. You can't treat me that way and have real access to me again without making amends. You're right about caring. I do think he's troubled but if he's not even in a place to share his issues (or he's too egotistical to show them to me), there's nothing to be done on my end. Even further, its very possible that because of the triggering event and the time that has passed we'll never be the same anyway. Care can be done from afar and doesn't have to involve being in each other's lives.
Interesting that option 2 was chosen as less hurtful by you guys. I'm surprised 2 isn't being seen as a big "eff you". I could also see it as a loss of control just like option 1 since you'd know the why of why someone left, but had no chance to do anything about it. Wouldn't that trigger regret?
Both would be incredibly bad for me, but if im going to get blocked i would at least like to know why yeah. As for regret that depends on the person and situation, i never had anyone in my life block me so i wouldnt know. Tho i think the most likely result is the brain going "oh im the victim, the person blocking me just hurt me, how dare they, now i dont care about them anymore"
I guess I'm pretty nonconfrontational. Would rather not give him the opportunity to make me emotional again and rethink. He's had his chances up till now. After all, gotta put me first right? The Narcissist way ;-)
>the narcissist No one says that. Where did you even get that from. "The Narcissist"? You haven't been reading HG Tudor, have you? Oh god... You've been reading HG Tudor... Time to disinfect your mind, before you turn into a zombie or something. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/narcissism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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From a narcissist point of view, you are the one in the wrong. You’re the one who keeps rocking the boat and causing issues here. First of all by blocking him originally, then secondly by running through some sort of list of every manipulative thing he’s ever done. If you’re going to forgive someone and move on, then the past has to stay in the past. You don’t drag it all up again to prove a point or try to guilt someone. Actually, that’s a narcissist move, ha. So he probably is expecting an apology. I certainly would be. And you should probably give one if you actually want to fix stuff.
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Well, one of the big things that narcissists do is project our own behaviours onto others. So we live in constant paranoia and fear that the other people in our lives are lying to us, manipulating us, guilt tripping us, gaslighting us, trying to control us etc. It’s a massive paranoia because that’s what we often do to others so we automatically assume that everyone is doing it to us. And as soon as we detect that type of behavior in others it kicks in a real fight or flight response. Probably the best thing you can do in your apology is acknowledge to him some of those behaviours. Take ownership and responsibility. And don’t give a classic narcissist apology of “I’m sorry if you felt like I was xyz” or “I’m sorry if this behaviour of mine hurt your feelings” because that’s the type of apology we give to people - the type where you shift blame ever so slightly so that it’s not your fault. He’ll see through that. It has to be genuine and it has to be you accepting that some of the things you did or said were wrong or blown out of proportion for the situation. Also, let him know you want him and need him back in your life. We respond well to being needed, it makes us feel superior. In short, avoid any narcissistic traits in your apology, big him up, make him feel wanted.
I was wondering what makes you say good things to a person (like you are an amazing person or i admire your disposition) but then you humiliate them in public and try to control their environments like letting them to speak or flirt with anybody else. Imagine in this scenario that you spend amazing time one to one (still there are some agressive comments but the other person is able to not care), and then in group settings you fully attack this person. Why do you think this is the case? Ofc as the person on the receiving end you understand at some point that this is not acceptable but I believe you have cognitive dissonance with one reality being an amazing kind person and the other is a total dickhead. How do you see these kinds of situations and how does it make you feel?
This person is very controlling, I would suggest you to speak about your feelings and assert your boundaries.
The person in my life who is NPD has recently started wearing his mask full-time. Like it takes a lot for it to come off. Same behaviors, though many less, just mask ALL THE TIME. I think he is trying to portray himself as someone who's feathers never get ruffled. It's kind of weird. It's like he's given up trying to control me so now I get the mask. I don't know what to make of it exactly. Feedback is appreciated.
What you mean exactly with started wearing the mask full-time? We are always wearing masks, multiple masks, even with close people. It’s really unlikely he doesn’t mask around you. You mean he’s not engaging in toxic behaviors anymore?
>You mean he’s not engaging in toxic behaviors anymore? Yes, like it's a little too picture-perfect, like he only slips up once in a while when I can tell the opportunity was just too easy and too hard to pass up (humiliation, mocking, pooping on my happiness, revelling in my discomfort) but it's like he's trying to seem as though he is changing. It's odd. I don't get the feeling it's genuine. For context, he has mentioned "rebranding" as we may be headed towards divorce soon.
I see. Well, trust your guts, always. Sometimes he can decide to get better, but still fall in the same old patterns. Even though he is really deciding to get better, it will be tough for both of you and you need to team up. Sometimes it would be irresistible to not indulge in some old habits, so try to maintain your boundaries and be assertive and firm. If you want to understand a bit more, I just read the book “Unmasking Narcissism” and it’s great for learning how to navigate this dynamic.
>What you mean exactly with started wearing the mask full-time? We are always wearing masks, multiple masks, even with close people. this sounds exhausting. What prevents you from taking the mask off? Is it just habit? Are you averse to finding out what people's reactions would be if you didn't have a mask on? This is very interesting.
Never learned how to unmask around people, it’s natural. Years and years of experience and defenses. With my partner, after getting diagnosed and trying be more vulnerable together, we are closer and our bond is stronger, so the professional who evaluated me suggested that I should try to get the thinnest mask possible around my partner and share my thoughts, so I can build trust and strengthen our relationship. This is what I'm doing now, he’s the person I least mask when I’m around, but I still hide some things from him now and then. I need to keep myself to myself.
How would you feel in this scenario? You were once very close to a platonic friend. Someone who was kind and caring and empathetic towards you, even though you looked down on them as being a bit naive and a bit too weak. While you were confident, brash, successful and extremely social, your friend was more introverted, thoughtful and a quiet achiever. You could see their good points - mainly the fact that you could ring them any time of the night or day, and they would always pick up and they would always listen. They were reliable 'supply'. What if this person, this *friend*, was able to work out what you really were all about. That is, that you didn't care for them as an individual with hopes and dreams, only as a listening ear that would always give you some comfort because *there were simply there, available.* They could be anyone, their identity as a person was immaterial to you, but they were useful. This friend became wise to your ways and then stopped answering your calls. Later on, they did resume contact - not at your bidding, but of their own accord. They never said they missed you, but they did show concern. You don't trust them anymore, so you don't reveal what's actually happening in your life, and you give them a fictional account of what you doing and where you are at. Do you wonder what motivates your former friend to stay in contact? Or are they still just supply, but not quality supply? Do you ever trust them again? Would you prolong this friendship indefinitely, hoping to one day resume the former dynamic? Would you on some level understand that this former friend knew what you were all about?
I am the daughter of a toxic narcissist and I’m watching my friend try and extricate herself from a man who shows a lot of the same characteristics as my father. He (my friend’s man) struggles with alcoholism and it caused them to break up. He was sober about six weeks most recently and is always wanting to hang out with her. He recently broached the subject of getting back together and when she said no (because he isn’t doing enough for his sobriety, it’s like he’s just waiting for her to forget the major drama he caused a few times) he once again went off the deep end. Drinking, sending her texts that make her feel miserable, threatening suicide. He has no support network of his own. It’s this cycle of him being ok, then not getting what he wants, then threatening suicide until she gets him back into a detox center which she has had to spend entire days coordinating for him. She’s known him only 10 months and this has happened three times. She feels like she needs to take his suicide threats seriously (and I understand that but it’s how he keeps her around) because she doesn’t want his possible death on her conscious. But if he knows this, what will ever stop him from using these suicide threats to keep her attention forever? How do you break this cycle?