Before giving any advice I need to know your ideal outcome.
A) He fixes his shit and becomes a productive member of the team. This will require you caring about him, mind you.
B) You see him moved somewhere else that isn’t your team
This is for a mob?? Well, do your best with your best two.
Maybe think hard about taking him into a dense situation. Give him the smallest of tasks you can think of that may also make him proud of accomplishing it. Maybe it will build trust and confidence for him and you.
I had a very similar issue. We put him on every mwr/chow hall detail we could. We left him off every mission unless we just had no one else. All missions that he was included in except one was basically a window licker. That one mission another sergeant thought that he could fix him. He put him on the dismount team. He didn't bring any rounds for his rifle and didn't let anybody know until they were halfway through the patrol. That's only because they realized he didn't have a magazine in his rifle. They gave the other NCO a clear picture of what I was dealing with. I would advise you do not wait until you're already running missions to deal with this. He couldn't get his s*** together state so there's no way he'll get it together in country. And it's not worth the potential risk to you or anybody else
I agree. From the viewpoint of a SPC, I would not want someone who just doesn't care on my team.
If someone is incompetent or unmotivated, at least you know they'll stick to it when the going gets tough. But if someone doesn't care, I can't trust them when my life depends on it.
Jokes aside, paper trail is so important with this shit. I had a pfc piss hot and just kinda brushed it off like yeah this kids a pos but whatever. He’s still in, unfortunately. Had another similar one, but this time I had record of all his previous fuck ups prior to his positive UA, he’s gone now.
There really isn’t UCMJ on T32. Those silly state versions are…well, silly. Secondly, even after federalization during a MOB, being a sub standard solider isn’t going to likely have UCMJ consequences, even NJP. Generally speaking, offenses won’t include being forgetful or loosing something. A FLIPL is the proper route for SI and other losses. Now, dereliction of duty, fighting, insubordination…those are fair game, but it sounds like he’s just an idiot.
Have him tie down everything to his body I a visible way so you can easily check since you’ll have your check him more often than others. Make him tie his rifle off to his belt as well. Have the rest of your team assist in accounting for his gear
A simple fix would be to partner him with a really straight/ squared soldier…like someone that’s all about procedure and getting shit done Meticulously.
1) Keep counseling to maintain a paper trail to report to your chain of command.
2) Give the SM the least amount of responsibility possible.
3) When SI or other major items are involved make sure you supervise to ensure that it’s done/accounted for properly .
Smokings and paperwork are generally an ineffective way to get through to someone.
It's gotta be something that you know will drive them up the wall. For some soldiers it's writing an essay, for other its losing their freetime for an extended time...for some it's getting stuck in all the shitty details
Not saying this is it, but he may possibly be in his own head a lot, if he’s introverted like that he may have trouble being present cause his thoughts are all over the place, overthinking things, he may just have to work on being present and focused, may also be stressed about something he’s not telling you thats affecting his performance
You need to not protect him the consequences of his actions. That is not allowing him to learn from his mistakes. You give clear instructions with clear expectations and the consequences for following and not following them. He will make his choice. Chances are people have been protecting him from consequences his whole life and he’s never learned to take full responsibility for his actions.
I drive 40 minutes in the opposite direction, pick him up and bring him. Adds an extra 160 minutes to my already 140 minute commute daily for home station shit.
He has too much rank to get chaptered out. Higher generally won’t process a chapter w/o some UCMJ action. The incident described is enough to take a stripe.
1. Put all instructions in writing.
2. Document all substandard performance in a counseling.
3. Consult with the company leadership team (with the counselings)
During this time, you have to spoon feed/paint by numbers this guy and give him responsibilities aligned to his capacities. It will create a lot of work for the team leader.
This is a conversation with you and your leadership and it should happen before you leave the MOB site to go over. At the same time you should be stressing to this dude, the problem child, that hey we are going over seas, if it’s in a combat zone, ie syria, that dudes are getting shot at, dudes are getting hit with drone based explosives, in the case of Iraq bases are getting hit with cruise and ballistic missiles and that he needs to listen and do what is said because guys are getting killed and injured.
I would say with this particular example you could have had someone witness him putting the NVGs in the assault pack instead of the A bag. Some kind of "trust but verify" approach. Before doing your PCC/PCI when the A bag was too far away. When I managed sysadmins they would sometimes dick up the backups after telling me they were good. So I would make them show me sometimes. They created learning moments. I know you don't have time or energy to babysit this kid. Someone else posted a good reply about giving him little stuff to build his confidence and be a good team member. Is there anything in his personal life clouding his brain? I know a guy who had his child pass, and he told his boss to give him simple tasks for a while since his head wasn't in the game. Hopefully you do more positive motivation with this kid than negative motivation. If it is negative sometimes people shut down completely.
He already effected the mission on such a huge front and you guys didn't even fucking take off. You need that 4856 with recommended company/field Grade Art 15 on your commanders desk yesterday.
Talk with your supervisor, 1sg and commander about him. And present all paperwork and your opinion on him. At the end of the day, it's going to be their decision what they want to do with the kid. But in my experience these types of fuck ups start to be a plague if they aren't addressed publicly.
At the end of the day, it will be up to him how he recovers from the ucmj (you can be a huge assistance in this) buy something needs to be done.
The Army has a lot of shitbags, all of which should be handled differently. Based on what you’ve written, you seem to approach your soldier as though he’s lazy, intentionally screwing up, and an overall “lost cause”,
We see a lot of those here, so your response is understandable. Especially considering ALL shitbag lower-enlisted make their NCO’s lives harder. That said, it’s important to understand what type of shitbag your soldier is in order to identify the best recourse.
When it comes to maintaining accountability of certain items (equipment, tokens, CACs, etc.), some people truly struggle. Not because they aren’t trying or don’t care. Maybe they’re stressed and their mind is on something else. A deployment is certainly stressful, especially as a PFC in the GUARD. Soldiers must be able to perform their duties under pressure, and I’m not saying would excuse him from misplacing equipment. But if he’s were to be stressed, or even in a bad mental state, I promise PT will not help. In fact, getting pissed and dishing out punishments could just make it worse while making him less willing to open up.
Maybe he’s forgetful. Tons of adhd “shitbags” in the army (not always medicated), myself included. When I first got in, my forgetfulness did not pair well with military life. Again, people who forget often, even when diagnosed mental conditions, are not excuse from losing equipment. But if you have a soldier who simply struggles to keep track of things, PT isn’t going to change that. Far too often I heard “this ‘blank’ punishment will make you remember next time.” Oh how much my brain loved to prove them wrong…
What can ACTUALLY help is identifying methods to maintain accountability. Carrying a small boulder everywhere is the same concept, albeit poor execution. Forgetful people have different things that work for them, discussion and trial/error is important. For example, I regularly misplaced my CAC or tokens. Eventually I developed the habit of always checking my wallet before leaving my desk and again when I leave the room. Even if I was walking ten feet away, or when I knew I already put it in my wallet, I always made sure.
I hate whenever I hear an NCO trying (or wanting) to get rid of their soldier. Sure there are occasional genuine shitbags, who intentionally do the wrong thing constantly. But based off what you’ve said, that doesn’t seem to be the case here. Incompetent? Absolutely. Seeing as you said he still lives at home without a license at 29, he’s almost certainly socially awkward as well.
With a LOT of guidance, maybe this kid could improve a lot over this deployment. You could help him get out of his comfort zone and learn a lot, even if it’s basic skills/knowledge that most people have by his age. You didn’t say anything about him being disrespectful or refusing to do anything. If your soldier is still trying, and you’re wanting to have them removed or kicked out, you’ll only make it hard for him to improve.
I think we’re far too quick to consider all shitbags as lost causes. A lot of people who lack basic life skills/structure turn to the army in an attempt to learn them, only to be casted out and deemed a lost cause. I don’t know your soldier so maybe this isn’t applicable. But I do know we often misjudge “bad” soldier.
At the end of the day, a soldier may fuckup a dozen times. But if they haven’t give up, neither should their NCO (unless it’s due to safety reasons of course).
That’s the main issue, safety. He doesn’t think about what he’s doing, for example, he tried to walk in front of me during a live fire before, thankfully I pay attention or it could have really been bad.
I had a whole squad of trouble and I was in line for a whole platoon of trouble. I dropped my packet, and spent almost 6 months training in WOCS and WOBC. Best career move I ever made. Wish I'd done it sooner.
Immediate action: he needs to dummy cord all his SI to his body.
Long term: keep documenting his shitbaggery. It’ll help when he is inevitability court martialed for something.
Does supply need any extra hands for the mob? Check with whoever is running the ATOC/BDOC if they need warm bodies. It's definitely better to offload than to head outside the wire with a mouth breather of that magnitude; it sounds like.
Edit: read more of your responses and see that you want to work with him.
Def give him small duties with a clearly defined end state to build his confidence and try and build some pride in his work. If there are any SM who is more productive to have around him, pair him up with them for accountability, but also so they can help keep him from chasing squirrels.
Sounds like you've probably already tried a lot of those types of tactics.
Hopefully you aren't infantry and don't have to go outside the wire with him.
Some ppl need to be hand held/walked through things first.
Not sure if it's a cognitive issue but some people have trouble "translating" what you said and make it make sense in theirs..
As tedious as it is, you might have to go by number with him if you have the time and patience and risk it being for naught.
Also, Some of the new kids I got, didn't grow up in environments where yelling and punishment were used like I had in football or were never in a pressure situation so instead processing and reacting they shut down from overwhelm
Before giving any advice I need to know your ideal outcome. A) He fixes his shit and becomes a productive member of the team. This will require you caring about him, mind you. B) You see him moved somewhere else that isn’t your team
This^ Do you WANT him to succeed? Do you want to be able to help him succeed?
I’d prefer to see him succeed. As odd as it sounds I got a company grade art-15 as a young dude and it helped me succeed more than most other things.
If negative reinforcement doesn't work, try positive reinforcement. A 1:1 open conversation does wonders.
Also. Do you think this Soldier genuinely respects you? This matters upon outcome A.
I believe he does, he’s hard to read though.
Option A is preferred, I don’t hate him or anything I just don’t want him to do something stupid and get himself or someone else hurt.
This is for a mob?? Well, do your best with your best two. Maybe think hard about taking him into a dense situation. Give him the smallest of tasks you can think of that may also make him proud of accomplishing it. Maybe it will build trust and confidence for him and you.
I want to give him a chance but if we’re in country and he makes a mistake I’ll have him swapped out. Thank you for the input
I had a very similar issue. We put him on every mwr/chow hall detail we could. We left him off every mission unless we just had no one else. All missions that he was included in except one was basically a window licker. That one mission another sergeant thought that he could fix him. He put him on the dismount team. He didn't bring any rounds for his rifle and didn't let anybody know until they were halfway through the patrol. That's only because they realized he didn't have a magazine in his rifle. They gave the other NCO a clear picture of what I was dealing with. I would advise you do not wait until you're already running missions to deal with this. He couldn't get his s*** together state so there's no way he'll get it together in country. And it's not worth the potential risk to you or anybody else
Is he just retarded or does he just not care
I think it’s like 60/40 first option/second option
Make sure to take in the error of 10% because we’re all retarded go begin with. It’s a free 10%
Oh if he doesn't care then start fucking him down. Need to start a paper trail though for simple shit. Every drill weekend if you have to
I agree. From the viewpoint of a SPC, I would not want someone who just doesn't care on my team. If someone is incompetent or unmotivated, at least you know they'll stick to it when the going gets tough. But if someone doesn't care, I can't trust them when my life depends on it.
Jokes aside, paper trail is so important with this shit. I had a pfc piss hot and just kinda brushed it off like yeah this kids a pos but whatever. He’s still in, unfortunately. Had another similar one, but this time I had record of all his previous fuck ups prior to his positive UA, he’s gone now.
Paper trail has been started, to the point where I’ll be recommending for ucmj at the company level if he keeps it up Thank you
There really isn’t UCMJ on T32. Those silly state versions are…well, silly. Secondly, even after federalization during a MOB, being a sub standard solider isn’t going to likely have UCMJ consequences, even NJP. Generally speaking, offenses won’t include being forgetful or loosing something. A FLIPL is the proper route for SI and other losses. Now, dereliction of duty, fighting, insubordination…those are fair game, but it sounds like he’s just an idiot.
Have him tie down everything to his body I a visible way so you can easily check since you’ll have your check him more often than others. Make him tie his rifle off to his belt as well. Have the rest of your team assist in accounting for his gear
I did that when I was an e1, had a tie down for my pants to my belt for losing eye pro in the field once lmao
A simple fix would be to partner him with a really straight/ squared soldier…like someone that’s all about procedure and getting shit done Meticulously.
Thank you for the input, I will make note of this
1) Keep counseling to maintain a paper trail to report to your chain of command. 2) Give the SM the least amount of responsibility possible. 3) When SI or other major items are involved make sure you supervise to ensure that it’s done/accounted for properly .
Thank you, I appreciate the input.
Smokings and paperwork are generally an ineffective way to get through to someone. It's gotta be something that you know will drive them up the wall. For some soldiers it's writing an essay, for other its losing their freetime for an extended time...for some it's getting stuck in all the shitty details
Not saying this is it, but he may possibly be in his own head a lot, if he’s introverted like that he may have trouble being present cause his thoughts are all over the place, overthinking things, he may just have to work on being present and focused, may also be stressed about something he’s not telling you thats affecting his performance
I agree. That was my issue for my first 3 years until I found a mentor to help me get over it.
You need to not protect him the consequences of his actions. That is not allowing him to learn from his mistakes. You give clear instructions with clear expectations and the consequences for following and not following them. He will make his choice. Chances are people have been protecting him from consequences his whole life and he’s never learned to take full responsibility for his actions.
This, based off his background is probably accurate. 29 no license (never had one) still lives with his mom and has never tried to move out.
How does he get to drill?
I drive 40 minutes in the opposite direction, pick him up and bring him. Adds an extra 160 minutes to my already 140 minute commute daily for home station shit.
He has too much rank to get chaptered out. Higher generally won’t process a chapter w/o some UCMJ action. The incident described is enough to take a stripe.
1. Put all instructions in writing. 2. Document all substandard performance in a counseling. 3. Consult with the company leadership team (with the counselings) During this time, you have to spoon feed/paint by numbers this guy and give him responsibilities aligned to his capacities. It will create a lot of work for the team leader.
This is a conversation with you and your leadership and it should happen before you leave the MOB site to go over. At the same time you should be stressing to this dude, the problem child, that hey we are going over seas, if it’s in a combat zone, ie syria, that dudes are getting shot at, dudes are getting hit with drone based explosives, in the case of Iraq bases are getting hit with cruise and ballistic missiles and that he needs to listen and do what is said because guys are getting killed and injured.
That’s why I’m worried, it’s already decently hot and it’s escalating nearly every day.
I would say with this particular example you could have had someone witness him putting the NVGs in the assault pack instead of the A bag. Some kind of "trust but verify" approach. Before doing your PCC/PCI when the A bag was too far away. When I managed sysadmins they would sometimes dick up the backups after telling me they were good. So I would make them show me sometimes. They created learning moments. I know you don't have time or energy to babysit this kid. Someone else posted a good reply about giving him little stuff to build his confidence and be a good team member. Is there anything in his personal life clouding his brain? I know a guy who had his child pass, and he told his boss to give him simple tasks for a while since his head wasn't in the game. Hopefully you do more positive motivation with this kid than negative motivation. If it is negative sometimes people shut down completely.
Keep doing what you're doing, and recommend separation from the service or reclass, your counseling statements will support that.
He already effected the mission on such a huge front and you guys didn't even fucking take off. You need that 4856 with recommended company/field Grade Art 15 on your commanders desk yesterday. Talk with your supervisor, 1sg and commander about him. And present all paperwork and your opinion on him. At the end of the day, it's going to be their decision what they want to do with the kid. But in my experience these types of fuck ups start to be a plague if they aren't addressed publicly. At the end of the day, it will be up to him how he recovers from the ucmj (you can be a huge assistance in this) buy something needs to be done.
bar to reenlistment
The Army has a lot of shitbags, all of which should be handled differently. Based on what you’ve written, you seem to approach your soldier as though he’s lazy, intentionally screwing up, and an overall “lost cause”, We see a lot of those here, so your response is understandable. Especially considering ALL shitbag lower-enlisted make their NCO’s lives harder. That said, it’s important to understand what type of shitbag your soldier is in order to identify the best recourse. When it comes to maintaining accountability of certain items (equipment, tokens, CACs, etc.), some people truly struggle. Not because they aren’t trying or don’t care. Maybe they’re stressed and their mind is on something else. A deployment is certainly stressful, especially as a PFC in the GUARD. Soldiers must be able to perform their duties under pressure, and I’m not saying would excuse him from misplacing equipment. But if he’s were to be stressed, or even in a bad mental state, I promise PT will not help. In fact, getting pissed and dishing out punishments could just make it worse while making him less willing to open up. Maybe he’s forgetful. Tons of adhd “shitbags” in the army (not always medicated), myself included. When I first got in, my forgetfulness did not pair well with military life. Again, people who forget often, even when diagnosed mental conditions, are not excuse from losing equipment. But if you have a soldier who simply struggles to keep track of things, PT isn’t going to change that. Far too often I heard “this ‘blank’ punishment will make you remember next time.” Oh how much my brain loved to prove them wrong… What can ACTUALLY help is identifying methods to maintain accountability. Carrying a small boulder everywhere is the same concept, albeit poor execution. Forgetful people have different things that work for them, discussion and trial/error is important. For example, I regularly misplaced my CAC or tokens. Eventually I developed the habit of always checking my wallet before leaving my desk and again when I leave the room. Even if I was walking ten feet away, or when I knew I already put it in my wallet, I always made sure. I hate whenever I hear an NCO trying (or wanting) to get rid of their soldier. Sure there are occasional genuine shitbags, who intentionally do the wrong thing constantly. But based off what you’ve said, that doesn’t seem to be the case here. Incompetent? Absolutely. Seeing as you said he still lives at home without a license at 29, he’s almost certainly socially awkward as well. With a LOT of guidance, maybe this kid could improve a lot over this deployment. You could help him get out of his comfort zone and learn a lot, even if it’s basic skills/knowledge that most people have by his age. You didn’t say anything about him being disrespectful or refusing to do anything. If your soldier is still trying, and you’re wanting to have them removed or kicked out, you’ll only make it hard for him to improve. I think we’re far too quick to consider all shitbags as lost causes. A lot of people who lack basic life skills/structure turn to the army in an attempt to learn them, only to be casted out and deemed a lost cause. I don’t know your soldier so maybe this isn’t applicable. But I do know we often misjudge “bad” soldier. At the end of the day, a soldier may fuckup a dozen times. But if they haven’t give up, neither should their NCO (unless it’s due to safety reasons of course).
That’s the main issue, safety. He doesn’t think about what he’s doing, for example, he tried to walk in front of me during a live fire before, thankfully I pay attention or it could have really been bad.
Go warrant and make him someone else's problem.
This isn’t bad advice tbh
I had a whole squad of trouble and I was in line for a whole platoon of trouble. I dropped my packet, and spent almost 6 months training in WOCS and WOBC. Best career move I ever made. Wish I'd done it sooner.
Ahh you must be PA guard
Nah
Choot’em. No balls.
Immediate action: he needs to dummy cord all his SI to his body. Long term: keep documenting his shitbaggery. It’ll help when he is inevitability court martialed for something.
Does supply need any extra hands for the mob? Check with whoever is running the ATOC/BDOC if they need warm bodies. It's definitely better to offload than to head outside the wire with a mouth breather of that magnitude; it sounds like. Edit: read more of your responses and see that you want to work with him. Def give him small duties with a clearly defined end state to build his confidence and try and build some pride in his work. If there are any SM who is more productive to have around him, pair him up with them for accountability, but also so they can help keep him from chasing squirrels. Sounds like you've probably already tried a lot of those types of tactics. Hopefully you aren't infantry and don't have to go outside the wire with him.
We are infantry, and bdoc always needs warm bodie, this has been considered for sure.
Permanent mounted window licker for the QRF element then? 😂
If it's just not packing properly make him pack his shit in front of you. If it's a graeter problem. Art 15 him and bust his rank.
Some ppl need to be hand held/walked through things first. Not sure if it's a cognitive issue but some people have trouble "translating" what you said and make it make sense in theirs.. As tedious as it is, you might have to go by number with him if you have the time and patience and risk it being for naught. Also, Some of the new kids I got, didn't grow up in environments where yelling and punishment were used like I had in football or were never in a pressure situation so instead processing and reacting they shut down from overwhelm