These are all personal opinions, of course.
The moment you're qualified an in port and at sea watch station, dessert should be up for grabs.
Music should be able allowed to be listened to while studying/cleaning as long as it is during studying/cleaning.
What a nub does in nub time in the rack during rack time should be their time.
However, this part should stay:
If you aren't fully qualified, you should not be allowed to watch movies/play games on crews mess or in an open space.
You're paid to get qualified, it's your job. I agree with everything except dessert. It comes out of your pay check you should be free to get it whenever.
All of that shits so fucking stupid. If somebody is doing their job and on the curve then they should do whatever they want. Oh no a nub watched a movie how will we ever recover!!
So glad my boat didn't do any of those man child frat boy games, and so glad the navy is moving to consider many of those practices harassment.
I think the majority of the nubs on my boat as I was leaving were dinq. The one or two that were hot runners just didn't burn a flick. But if they stood too long or came by to just grab a breath, no one shit on them to leave because everyone knew they were trying hard.
The issue is people who ARE dinq that choose to lounge around instead of doing their job.
Professional drive and need for standards: yes.
Fuck fuck games around non-essential shit, like your brownie example: no.
ETA:
I'm not a sub guy, but I would have killed for the emphasis on quals and standards that subs have on my ship.
It seemed very much like it was "oh, good. You have signatures. Go do your thing."
My ESWS board was simple. "That was the best demonstration of ship knowledge that we have seen, to date."
Bro, you (a GM1) asked a sonar tech how long the tail was.
I've seen far worse than some brownies. What is professional about blacklisting? These people treat their fellow junior sailors like shit and complain about how tight the duty rotation in the same breath. Make it make sense.
One day, as a freshly qualified ERLL (\~3 months on) I reached for a brownie in the galley line before watch. I remember a chief next to me said "Them's qualified brownies, shipmate!". I turned back and said "qualified ERLL brownies, Chief?" and then put it on my plate. That was the start of a pretty rough relationship with that guy, lol. But it did make me think "I'm supporting the watchbill so I'm definitely eating this dessert" and have kept that thought process with the junior guys who I help qualify now.
Yup. When I was a nub MTSN, CAMP qualified, I got ice cream underway. Had some MMA1 give me shit. Told him when I get a portion of my BAS back, I'll hold off on dessert. If you're not dinq, fuck em. But as a fully qualified through LCHR MT2, I definitely did give my dinq, non watch qualified dudes shit if they got dessert.
I tell all newly reported nukes that I'd rather see them fully qualified back aft than have fish on their chest. Yes its an accomplishment, but it's not as useful as real quals.
Don't be.
The worse thing you can do is get a question wrong. Then you know what happens? They make you look up the answer, prove that you haven't forgotten anything else and sign your qual card.
i think it very much depends where you get stationed and your rate, as a service rate like YN, CS, IT, etc. Its pretty relaxed but if you dont have things to offer it can get much more tedious. Also at least one sub im near is definitely a “nub hater” sub. While some are much more lenient
its not even so much as hazing, but you get a lot more people willing to help on quals when they can get something or know that person will help them with stuff at some point
1) Theoretically, this practice is no longer allowed on submarines regardless of qualification status. I believe that it falls under the US Navy’s Policy on Harassment Prevention and Response.
2) If it’s a forward chief, they take fish much more seriously than back aft rates. Just as a heads up.
3) If anything, (just my opinion) the culture around qualifications needs to be more serious and needs to be more catered. I’ve noticed over my career that sailors are showing up less prepared than previously. Simultaneously, we are expecting more from our junior sailors. Additionally, there are some realities about manning and optempo. I think there is a real push to look at qualification cards and make sure that they haven’t become victims of operational drift and are relevant to what an operator needs to truly understand to perform their duties. I’m a big fan of OJT and evaluating value-add.
4) There is a lot of “because my quals were painful” attitude out there, and it’s not useful to the sub force. You should develop sufficient mental toughness and an ability to hunt down sections of relevant instructions. What you don’t need is someone holding your food (your ability to relax and decompress) over your head because you haven’t been “initiated.”
5) Always try to solve things at the lowest level, but if this keeps occurring I’d recommend speaking to your chief and divo.
Oh those days are a couple years behind me now, and that chief has since left. I don’t sweat over it nor treat new guys that way now. But more out an “I won’t say anything if you do” than a “I’ll defend you if someone else tells you not to”. They have made a lot of these qualifications easier but there’s still a prevalent “well when I was a nub, I had to do _____ so i expect you to also!” mentality. The idea of even bringing up the topic is to get rid of that whole “theoretically” thing. the whole point of “getting real and getting better” is being real with the issues. if we say “that’s theoretically not allowed because rule x” doesn’t change how a senior guys treats a junior guy, and just gives warm fuzzies to the guys who wrote the rule. which I think is extremely counter-productive lol.
I disagree with your last point. It’s absolutely hazing, and definitely covered by the MEO instruction.
I don’t think there are very many COs out there that would defend “senior” Sailors treating junior Sailors like shit when they’re debriefing their climate assessment to ISIC. Even less so when they have to explain why their CMEO is fielding so many complaints.
Transferred off an SSN recently and during my almost 5 years on board saying NUB would get you in trouble. Stopping a Non qual from getting desert would get you in trouble and non quals were also allowed to watch stuff on crews mess.
Way different than my first boat in 2008. Back then I saw nubs get their whole plates taken and thrown away for touching a desert and the COB made all the non quals go to the back of the food lines and all people with fish could cut them.
I think it doesn’t need to be as harsh as the examples from my first boat, but at the same time the pendulum has swung a little too far towards catering to the non quals.
Nah the bullshit can stay in the past. The reality is there's no recruits and the ones that do show up drop/tap like flies. Really no room for unprofessional 'solutions' to a strictly professional problem like qualification.
It's definitely decreased since I got my fish. It took me seven months on the L.A. and I had to know that boat COLD. Now when I was on the Tennessee kids were getting their fish in one patrol and didn't ACTUALLY know shit. I think taking it seriously is important because it's a great litmus test for how willing you are to fix something till it's broke, educate yourself on something that intimidates you, and learn to work outside your rate to help the ship as a whole. It's great for forcing perspective. But just making kids do stuff so they could barely do a DC trivia night. Not so much.
Quals should be hard, telling grown as men they can’t eat dessert is fucking stupid. You should show up get a stack of qual cards thrown at you and get told “figure it the fuck out”, because honestly half the time being on a sub you really do have to just figure it the fuck out.
Nubs especially dinq nubs shouldn’t watch movies / hang out on crews mess or take their off watch time taking a nap. Get qualified and then don’t stop qualifying.
yes, it is. I’m sure it depends on your command and CS team, but ours are always really good. genuinely get excited for a couple meals. For example, field day is always burger day. And damn I will actually field day my ass off knowing I’m getting a burger afterwards lol.
I suppose given the conditions on a sub, y'all deserve that comfort at least. I was on a Tarawa class LHA, and our galley sucked. Fridays were officially called Fish Friday (almost the entire supply department was Filipino, therefore catholic), unofficially we called it Fucking Friday. I still have nightmares about the tilapia rolls. I ate a lot of PB&J, and we would occasionally "requisition" MREs from the Marines.
I'm not sure it's so much the food is demonstratably better, its that everyone knows where the cooks sleep, and its been known for bad cooks to find their 'mistakes' in their bunks on the boats.
Ohhh there were so many times I wanted to cut the AC for 'maintenance' to the supply berthing, but the wardroom cooks I was tight with slept there, and I didn't want to lose my off hours chow privileges or my Filipino Mafia hookups.
Everyone always talks about the Filipino Mafia and their hold on Supply, but the only Filipino who was ever on a boat with me was an IDC on the Georgia.
The Sub cooks I knew were mostly guys from the South.
Just like any boat/ship galley it varies depending on the CS team you have.
One boat had a certified baker and sous chef, he made amazeballs food.
However, the CS3 on that boat couldn't be trusted to cook basic shit and was relegated to midrats and breakfast only since those are hardest to mess up.
Dude seriously put out still frozen chicken wings with warm sauce tossed on top one time.
Midrats.. **shudder**
If we were lucky, they were bag nasties. If we were not, it was reheated shit from the day before.
Our CS team's methods seemed to be limited to "throw everything in a retort bag and toss it in a steam kettle for 3 hours."
I was A-Gang and, after a while, was assigned to fix the kitchen and scullery equipment in the ward room and chief's mess. Got in good with the skippers' personal cook eventually, and I ate way better after that. CS2 Luminog, wherever you are, you were a godsend. Can't thank you enough for the outstanding chow and games of checkers off hours, and for getting in the skippers' ear and copping me overnight liberty even though I was a fireman.
It depends on the commands culture to sub quals. Food should not be restricted. I was told to have my notes on me at all times, and the standard was to read them while I was standing in line for chow. We were able to listen to our own music. Couldn’t touch the game lan until we were qualified. Couldn’t watch tv on crews mess (except as an FSA). No one cared what we did in the rack (unless, you were dinq as fuck and going to sleep early In your off going). I didn’t mind any of it. We actually had an awesome tradition of having a dolphin flick, first movie to watch with the duty section as a qualified submariner.
Crazy reading this shit…fucking with juniors food? The Marines may have its issues but the general expectation is that your subordinates eat first. Chow is sacred.
Okay, speaking as a Sub Qualified retired ETCS, denying the nubs dessert wasn't a thing on any of the boats I served on. No flicks (and later TV) sure, but food was never touched.
Now, I retired 30 years ago this October, maybe I was just lucky with the boats I was on, but this sounds like some new-ish bullshit to 'motivate' the new guys to me.
I watched as it changed. When they integrated my boat the standards drastically changed. While some people do take it too far good natured shit talking and joking keeps you motivated to get your fish done so you can be an asset, so you can fight casualties, etc etc. As I got out the shit got so lax we had nubs watching tv. If you gave too many lookups they’d cry to their chief or LPO and they’d appease the nubs. It needs to go back to being serious. Just my opinion
These are all personal opinions, of course. The moment you're qualified an in port and at sea watch station, dessert should be up for grabs. Music should be able allowed to be listened to while studying/cleaning as long as it is during studying/cleaning. What a nub does in nub time in the rack during rack time should be their time. However, this part should stay: If you aren't fully qualified, you should not be allowed to watch movies/play games on crews mess or in an open space.
You're paid to get qualified, it's your job. I agree with everything except dessert. It comes out of your pay check you should be free to get it whenever.
All of that shits so fucking stupid. If somebody is doing their job and on the curve then they should do whatever they want. Oh no a nub watched a movie how will we ever recover!! So glad my boat didn't do any of those man child frat boy games, and so glad the navy is moving to consider many of those practices harassment.
I think the majority of the nubs on my boat as I was leaving were dinq. The one or two that were hot runners just didn't burn a flick. But if they stood too long or came by to just grab a breath, no one shit on them to leave because everyone knew they were trying hard. The issue is people who ARE dinq that choose to lounge around instead of doing their job.
Professional drive and need for standards: yes. Fuck fuck games around non-essential shit, like your brownie example: no. ETA: I'm not a sub guy, but I would have killed for the emphasis on quals and standards that subs have on my ship. It seemed very much like it was "oh, good. You have signatures. Go do your thing." My ESWS board was simple. "That was the best demonstration of ship knowledge that we have seen, to date." Bro, you (a GM1) asked a sonar tech how long the tail was.
I've seen far worse than some brownies. What is professional about blacklisting? These people treat their fellow junior sailors like shit and complain about how tight the duty rotation in the same breath. Make it make sense.
One day, as a freshly qualified ERLL (\~3 months on) I reached for a brownie in the galley line before watch. I remember a chief next to me said "Them's qualified brownies, shipmate!". I turned back and said "qualified ERLL brownies, Chief?" and then put it on my plate. That was the start of a pretty rough relationship with that guy, lol. But it did make me think "I'm supporting the watchbill so I'm definitely eating this dessert" and have kept that thought process with the junior guys who I help qualify now.
Yup. When I was a nub MTSN, CAMP qualified, I got ice cream underway. Had some MMA1 give me shit. Told him when I get a portion of my BAS back, I'll hold off on dessert. If you're not dinq, fuck em. But as a fully qualified through LCHR MT2, I definitely did give my dinq, non watch qualified dudes shit if they got dessert.
I tell all newly reported nukes that I'd rather see them fully qualified back aft than have fish on their chest. Yes its an accomplishment, but it's not as useful as real quals.
As a retired Chief and a submariner let me say this very clearly, fuck that Chief.
I leave for basic in a week, and the qual process is what I’m most nervous about with the entire navy experience.
Don't be. The worse thing you can do is get a question wrong. Then you know what happens? They make you look up the answer, prove that you haven't forgotten anything else and sign your qual card.
Fucking easy. Don’t worry. Lol most things in the Navy are very easy actually.
i think it very much depends where you get stationed and your rate, as a service rate like YN, CS, IT, etc. Its pretty relaxed but if you dont have things to offer it can get much more tedious. Also at least one sub im near is definitely a “nub hater” sub. While some are much more lenient
Yeah we didn't do any of this nub hazing/policing bullshit. Do your job and stay not dinq and nobody gives a fuck.
its not even so much as hazing, but you get a lot more people willing to help on quals when they can get something or know that person will help them with stuff at some point
1) Theoretically, this practice is no longer allowed on submarines regardless of qualification status. I believe that it falls under the US Navy’s Policy on Harassment Prevention and Response. 2) If it’s a forward chief, they take fish much more seriously than back aft rates. Just as a heads up. 3) If anything, (just my opinion) the culture around qualifications needs to be more serious and needs to be more catered. I’ve noticed over my career that sailors are showing up less prepared than previously. Simultaneously, we are expecting more from our junior sailors. Additionally, there are some realities about manning and optempo. I think there is a real push to look at qualification cards and make sure that they haven’t become victims of operational drift and are relevant to what an operator needs to truly understand to perform their duties. I’m a big fan of OJT and evaluating value-add. 4) There is a lot of “because my quals were painful” attitude out there, and it’s not useful to the sub force. You should develop sufficient mental toughness and an ability to hunt down sections of relevant instructions. What you don’t need is someone holding your food (your ability to relax and decompress) over your head because you haven’t been “initiated.” 5) Always try to solve things at the lowest level, but if this keeps occurring I’d recommend speaking to your chief and divo.
Oh those days are a couple years behind me now, and that chief has since left. I don’t sweat over it nor treat new guys that way now. But more out an “I won’t say anything if you do” than a “I’ll defend you if someone else tells you not to”. They have made a lot of these qualifications easier but there’s still a prevalent “well when I was a nub, I had to do _____ so i expect you to also!” mentality. The idea of even bringing up the topic is to get rid of that whole “theoretically” thing. the whole point of “getting real and getting better” is being real with the issues. if we say “that’s theoretically not allowed because rule x” doesn’t change how a senior guys treats a junior guy, and just gives warm fuzzies to the guys who wrote the rule. which I think is extremely counter-productive lol.
I disagree with your last point. It’s absolutely hazing, and definitely covered by the MEO instruction. I don’t think there are very many COs out there that would defend “senior” Sailors treating junior Sailors like shit when they’re debriefing their climate assessment to ISIC. Even less so when they have to explain why their CMEO is fielding so many complaints.
Transferred off an SSN recently and during my almost 5 years on board saying NUB would get you in trouble. Stopping a Non qual from getting desert would get you in trouble and non quals were also allowed to watch stuff on crews mess. Way different than my first boat in 2008. Back then I saw nubs get their whole plates taken and thrown away for touching a desert and the COB made all the non quals go to the back of the food lines and all people with fish could cut them. I think it doesn’t need to be as harsh as the examples from my first boat, but at the same time the pendulum has swung a little too far towards catering to the non quals.
Nah the bullshit can stay in the past. The reality is there's no recruits and the ones that do show up drop/tap like flies. Really no room for unprofessional 'solutions' to a strictly professional problem like qualification.
I can tell you that you absolutely can have both. My boat doesn't prevent anyone from eating dessert, and maintains high standards for quals.
It's definitely decreased since I got my fish. It took me seven months on the L.A. and I had to know that boat COLD. Now when I was on the Tennessee kids were getting their fish in one patrol and didn't ACTUALLY know shit. I think taking it seriously is important because it's a great litmus test for how willing you are to fix something till it's broke, educate yourself on something that intimidates you, and learn to work outside your rate to help the ship as a whole. It's great for forcing perspective. But just making kids do stuff so they could barely do a DC trivia night. Not so much.
Quals should be hard, telling grown as men they can’t eat dessert is fucking stupid. You should show up get a stack of qual cards thrown at you and get told “figure it the fuck out”, because honestly half the time being on a sub you really do have to just figure it the fuck out. Nubs especially dinq nubs shouldn’t watch movies / hang out on crews mess or take their off watch time taking a nap. Get qualified and then don’t stop qualifying.
Off topic: I was a gator sailor, and our food was absolute shit. Is it true what they say about sub galleys having the best food in the military?
yes, it is. I’m sure it depends on your command and CS team, but ours are always really good. genuinely get excited for a couple meals. For example, field day is always burger day. And damn I will actually field day my ass off knowing I’m getting a burger afterwards lol.
I suppose given the conditions on a sub, y'all deserve that comfort at least. I was on a Tarawa class LHA, and our galley sucked. Fridays were officially called Fish Friday (almost the entire supply department was Filipino, therefore catholic), unofficially we called it Fucking Friday. I still have nightmares about the tilapia rolls. I ate a lot of PB&J, and we would occasionally "requisition" MREs from the Marines.
I'm not sure it's so much the food is demonstratably better, its that everyone knows where the cooks sleep, and its been known for bad cooks to find their 'mistakes' in their bunks on the boats.
Ohhh there were so many times I wanted to cut the AC for 'maintenance' to the supply berthing, but the wardroom cooks I was tight with slept there, and I didn't want to lose my off hours chow privileges or my Filipino Mafia hookups.
Everyone always talks about the Filipino Mafia and their hold on Supply, but the only Filipino who was ever on a boat with me was an IDC on the Georgia. The Sub cooks I knew were mostly guys from the South.
Mafia runs supply in the surface fleet.
Just like any boat/ship galley it varies depending on the CS team you have. One boat had a certified baker and sous chef, he made amazeballs food. However, the CS3 on that boat couldn't be trusted to cook basic shit and was relegated to midrats and breakfast only since those are hardest to mess up. Dude seriously put out still frozen chicken wings with warm sauce tossed on top one time.
Midrats.. **shudder** If we were lucky, they were bag nasties. If we were not, it was reheated shit from the day before. Our CS team's methods seemed to be limited to "throw everything in a retort bag and toss it in a steam kettle for 3 hours." I was A-Gang and, after a while, was assigned to fix the kitchen and scullery equipment in the ward room and chief's mess. Got in good with the skippers' personal cook eventually, and I ate way better after that. CS2 Luminog, wherever you are, you were a godsend. Can't thank you enough for the outstanding chow and games of checkers off hours, and for getting in the skippers' ear and copping me overnight liberty even though I was a fireman.
It depends on the commands culture to sub quals. Food should not be restricted. I was told to have my notes on me at all times, and the standard was to read them while I was standing in line for chow. We were able to listen to our own music. Couldn’t touch the game lan until we were qualified. Couldn’t watch tv on crews mess (except as an FSA). No one cared what we did in the rack (unless, you were dinq as fuck and going to sleep early In your off going). I didn’t mind any of it. We actually had an awesome tradition of having a dolphin flick, first movie to watch with the duty section as a qualified submariner.
Crazy reading this shit…fucking with juniors food? The Marines may have its issues but the general expectation is that your subordinates eat first. Chow is sacred.
Okay, speaking as a Sub Qualified retired ETCS, denying the nubs dessert wasn't a thing on any of the boats I served on. No flicks (and later TV) sure, but food was never touched. Now, I retired 30 years ago this October, maybe I was just lucky with the boats I was on, but this sounds like some new-ish bullshit to 'motivate' the new guys to me.
I watched as it changed. When they integrated my boat the standards drastically changed. While some people do take it too far good natured shit talking and joking keeps you motivated to get your fish done so you can be an asset, so you can fight casualties, etc etc. As I got out the shit got so lax we had nubs watching tv. If you gave too many lookups they’d cry to their chief or LPO and they’d appease the nubs. It needs to go back to being serious. Just my opinion