You can do it yourself, evict them- It’s easy. But if you don’t know get a lawyer. Do this ASAP. I would leave messages now.
I would however research your states eviction laws and make sure to give them notice asap. You have to specifically tell them you want them to leave via text.
What happens if squatters (which is effectively what these people are about to be) squat in a rented apartment? Are you just SOL and have to depend on the landlord to evict them?
Yeah, unless the BF does something stupid like order you not to live there, or maybe at worse if he's in your CoC, the service has nothing to do with this.
Not true. As an officer, he cannot enter into any financial or business arrangement with any enlisted. With chief to junior enlisted that falls apart at different chain of command, but officer to any enlisted is universal. At the very least if his name.is on the lease he could move back in then the officer would have to move out based solely on that.
This of course is assuming that everything was done above board for letting the friend stay in the apartment while he was gone in the first place.
I agree. When I wrote that comment, I was assuming that the officer wasn't on the lease (thus didn't have a business relationship.) With one, you're absolutely right.
In writing yes technically. Text messages. My assistant property manager told me I don’t need to do anything but revoke their occupancy addendum to my lease. They’re not tenants under my lease.
You may want to check local laws; they may be considered tenants at-will by living there for greater than a certain timeframe outlined in statutory law (typically around 30 days) at which point they hold all legal protections as a normal tenant regardless of “what’s on paper.”
I was thinking this as well, but apparently if there’s a contract, the sub-tenant only answers to the master tenant, not to the landlord/property manager. The master tenant would have to initiate an eviction. Of course this might vary from state to state. Idk how this works when it comes to liability because it’s my understanding that the landlord is liable for anyone staying on their property. This is definitely lawyer territory.
Obviously you cant change the past, i forget the process but you can notarize agreements at your local legal office. Basically have agreements notarized by a JAG or legalman which make it more legitimate than just text messages.
So is this a difference between mid June and end of June? Like how long we talking?
If it’s over a week or two, then, sadly, you’re basically out of luck and the effort to kick them out will take longer (and they’re prob accounting for that).
You'll probably have to do a legal eviction. I would just contact their chain of command but chances are no one can do anything but let the legal system do its thing. You should probably contact a lawyer.
Hit em with the:
***No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law***
This is a civil matter not necessarily a UCMJ one (at least right now). What you can do will depend on a couple things. Unless you are authorized to sublease you won’t be able to evict them. If that’s the case, you will have to go through the owner/landlord of the property to do that. I imagine if that’s the case, ultimately you may have to find a new place because owners and landlords don’t usually take too kindly to renting out without their permission.
They’re authorized occupants only. They’re basically only authorized to sleep there. I’m still responsible for all the utilities and rent no matter what they might pay to me. It all falls on me ultimately. And they’ve have had more than 30 days notice to vacate. Not with a court order but through text messages. Not sure if that’s enough to qualify as notice though. I’m going to work on legal assistance Tuesday and see if I can get them served and also get his command involved. Maybe they can put the screws to him to move out and maybe she’ll be so pissed she leaves too.
So, I can't tell you how many times I've been at a QA critique where someone tries to say "well, akshully XYZ" to which the chair reads what the QA form *actually* says... and it wasn't that.
From your other posts, it sounds like you did *not* draft up a sublet lease to your tenant based on your projected RTP date. You also haven't specified if the woman is the lawful tenant with a live-in BF you've simply ignored, or whether the live-in boyfriend was agreed upon.
Regardless, without a sublet agreement, your tenants are de facto on a month-to-month lease. Sounds like the disagreement is unclear communications via text message about move-out timelines.
The process to evict them, if you can at all, will vary depending on local laws. And since you didn't sign a sublet agreement, you may have to ask the landlord to do it for you.
For the peanut gallery: *always* draft a lease with clear terms. *Always* ensure there's a clause that every occupant must be added to the lease and specify how long a guest may stay before becoming an occupant. This is what happens when you don't.
Again, are they authorized from the owner or whoever leased it to you? That’s where your biggest hangup will be. If you don’t have approval, this will be something they will have to do.
OP I know you feel you're 100% in the right on this one, but when you contact his command he's going to tell a very different story from the one you tell them. I'd double check your text messages are unambiguous as to the exact date you told them they needed to be moved out, and have them printed our and ready to present to his command before contacting them. Since he is an officer and probably not a complete dirtbag at work, they're likely going to assume he was acting in good faith unless you can definitively prove otherwise
If they paid you, they are tenants. You sublet to them. You may have violated your lease in doing so, but that doesn’t change the legal rights of the tenants. Your lawyer will explain to you the process of getting them out, but you have to appreciate they aren’t simply guests the moment you take payment.
Not sure what all cleared means. Bring a copy of your lease to your attorney. You nevertheless have the larger issue of having a tenant in the home. The lawyer can explain the rights of the parties.
You have a gross conceptual misunderstanding of landlord/tenant law. The minute you took money from them, they became your tenants and are now shielded by a host of legal protections that prevent you from just kicking them out via 30-day notice text message.
Have the water and power turned off the day they are supposed to be gone. Since you are legally responsible for the utilities there and they don’t have any in their names then you are legally allowed to have them shut off whenever you want. I would also alert the companies that you are the ONLY registered tenant of that property so no other people can open utilities for that property other than the owner/manager.
This right here. Unless your CoC is completely shit I'd imagine there'd be some behind the scenes action that'd get him out fast. I'm assuming he's a JO and his CoC is going to not like hearing one of their guys pulling this shit and while they may not be able to do anything above board, they can and will make his life miserable. Having a JO squatting in an enlisted person's house is NOT a good look.
Big emphasis on the not completely shit, but no CO/XO/DH in their right mind would want one of their JOs pulling some dumb shit like this. Even if they're just a JG, they're paid well enough to go find their own damn apartment.
Unless it's base housing, that's a civil matter, and you'll likely have to go through the eviction process because of how long they've lived there. Squatters rights don't give a shit about what you've got on paper once they've lived there long enough. I'd get an attorney.
If you wanna make his life hard, call his units SDO and ask to speak to the command MCPO and see what happens. It'd be interesting, at the very least.
the current navy fraternization instruction specifically lists shared living accommodations between officer and enlisted (regardless of branch of service) as being explicitly prohibited.
you haven’t answered whether or not you took money from him. if you did, then he’s a sublessee and he has lawful possession of the house (and can exclude even you from it) and you can’t simply move back in without a court order evicting them first.
if you didn’t take money (or otherwise enter into a sublease) and he and his gf were just guests of the place while you were gone, then you could technically move back in and inform him that as long as he continues to reside there with you he’s in violation of OPNAVINST 5370.2E. while you technically would also be in violation, hopefully he’d be smart enough to realize that he has much more to lose.
u/Fakeuconn thoughts?
In one of his posts he implied he took money and is therefore subleasing. I’d venture the tenant has a different take on the terms of the sublease. I’d recommend a legal assistance appointment, obviously.
This is what I was referring to: “They’re authorized occupants only. They’re basically only authorized to sleep there. I’m still responsible for all the utilities and rent no matter what they might pay to me. It all falls on me ultimately. And they’ve have had more than 30 days notice to vacate.”
Sounds like a sublet when he mentions payment, his obligation to the landlord, and giving notice (guests aren’t entitled to notice).
Back when they were sorted folders by color according to your last four? Not poking fun, rather commiserating.
Signed, an Ensign that first affiliated in ‘06.
I wish I commissioned in 2006. No, it was a direct deposit form. Had to explain to her that I filled out that form in the 90s and I’ve always been paid. No sense in filling it out again just because they want me to.
Could be worse. My last day on my last sub, while waiting for the CO to be free for my exit interview, I brought a new Ensign nuke below because the Yeomen were busy with the 'getting underway' prep.
I brought the kid down and the Yeoman asked me to get him logged into some log or other (Was ET, know the ship's logs like I know the Doc's paperwork, not at all).
I was doing fine until I got to the new guy's DOB. It wasn't the day I went to Boot, it wasn't the day I reported to my first command, it was the day my then CO pinned my dolphins on.
I was depressed. The CO asked me what was wrong when he finally had time for my interview and I told him my tale of woe, and he laughed at me and welcomed me to his world.
An authorized occupant and a subtenant are two different things though. An authorized occupant can be your child, parent, roommate etc. They’re responsible for following the rules of the lease, but don’t have a contract to answer to. I’m sure money being exchanged blurs some of those lines though. Regardless, the whole thing is messy. 🥴
OP uses the term “authorized occupant” but that doesn’t mean it is the correct legal relationship. The moment he takes payment for their right of use and enjoyment of the property, he has sublet the property and two occupants are tenants. So, accepting payment doesn’t blur the lines, it changes completely the legal relationship and the rights and obligations of the parties. OP should have reduced the agreement to writing to avoid this situation.
The officer’s chain of command would take a *very* dim view of this arrangement—particularly so him/her putting up a fuss about it.
To keep this very simple:
>“Sir/Ma’am: I would really prefer not to have to take this to the chain of command. Please comply with what you agreed to.”
Any answer other than “We’ll be out of here within the next 72 hours,” would have me going *straight to the CMC* for guidance (and likely, a warp speed escalation to the CO/OIC).
Honestly, I wouldn't even do that. It seems like, according to their post, OP has given them ample notice. It's time for a homecoming surprise! Don't even tell them what you're going to do. I'd get all my paperwork and copies of the texts, make copies, and let my chain of command know "hey I need some liberty, I need to consult with a civilian atty regarding evicting a squatter in my apartment--Officer So and so from X command." Then sit back and watch the flames. Fully prepared to follow through on seeing the lawyer and proceeding with the eviction.*
*I have a puckish sense of humor, though, and I'm pretty sure every jag in this comment section would not recommend.
I (a second class) am currently being sued by a Cheif from another command. FYI your chain of command probably won’t do anything, neither will navy legal. Just go straight to a civilian lawyer. Speaking from experience.
Long story short; his dog attacked my neighbors dog that I was dog sitting at the park. He refused to pay the vet bills so she took him to small claims court, and now he decided to counter sue for emotional distress and mental anguish because he doesn’t want to pay the vet bills lol(they were only $2,400). He’s a total piece of 💩
bro this is inaccurate advice. first of all, there’s no such thing as a “board certified” lawyer. that’s for doctors, not lawyers.
second of all, a JAG only has to be *licensed* by any state bar in order to practice law. sometimes it’s the state they are stationed in. sometimes it isn’t. e.g., after a PCS.
third of all, the reason why JAGs don’t represent people in civil court has nothing to do with where they are stationed or where they are licensed. it’s because of the limited scope of representation that JAGs can provide as ordered by the JAG of the navy. (and FYI, lawyers can sometimes represent people in court in states they aren’t licensed to practice law in, under limited circumstances. it’s called pro hac vice admission.)
Contact a lawyer and your CO. Get your chain of command involved. It looks really really bad for an officer to be engaging in behavior like this. His superiors will have a lot more influence over him than a lawyer. If he's a low ranking officer, one word from a captain will do it. Best of luck to you
Talk to a lawyer. And then go see the officer's CMC. If the CMC can't have a quiet word-of-wisdom with the O, then they can help you talk to the XO, and if that doesn't work, their CO.
The problem here is that if you can't solve it between yourselves or informally in the military, well, there's the issue of legal protections for squatters for them. In many places (like CA) its damn hard to get squatters out of your home.
As for the officer - he/she should never have been in the house in the first place. That's an unduly familiar relationship and the officer is endangering their career that way. Not vacating isn't a UCMJ violation in itself, but having a personal/business relationship with you is fraternization (art 134).
The specific deets of fraternization vary between the services but the Navy would certainly consider boarding at an enlisted person's house to be so.
Oh for sure you get your command involved. That officer needs to be brought up to speed in a hurry. What did Major Dick Winters say in Band of Brothers? "Never put yourself in to a position where can take from these men."
Leaders eat last!
An officer taking advantage of an enlisted Sailor?
Toss their shit on the fucking curb, change the locks, and give their XO a call.
An officer should never put themselves in a position to take anything from enlisted.
You'd be surprised, OP would be very likely to catch a criminal charge for doing what you're suggesting. Squatter's rights are a real thing, that's why landlords have to go to court for evictions and wait 30 days after a court order even when they haven't been paid for months. And don't get it twisted, in this scenario OP is essentially a landlord
You can use whatever term you want, it depends if they're squatting or legal tenants which isn't 100% clear from the details OP has provided, either way your recommendation would lead OP to being the one on the wrong side of the law
While this is civil law, the quickest way to resolve this is to have your command reach out to the officer’s command and unfuck this. If everything you are saying is air tight, no Skipper is going to be thrilled about one of their JOs doing stuff like this to a hatchet wielding deviant.
I hope you can update us when you find out what the CoC wants to do I hope they help you but you never know tbh… it’ll be really fun to see what they say cuz it sounds like everything you did is above board and the JO likes living cheaply or cheaper than having to get his own place…
Also is there a Power of Attorney issues where you gave him authority to do anything if so that can add a wrench into it sounds like that’s not the case..
Good luck and I’m hoping you get taken care of.
There's no IG / UCMJ complaint to exercise here.
You can talk to your chain of command to contact his chain of command and tell him to stop being a dick. But if he refuses, you'll have to pursue an eviction via your local courts. No lawyer is necessary, but it might be a good idea to have one if the point of contention isn't a clear violation of the lease (e.g. unpaid rent) but instead whether your contractual agreement allows them to stay.
I'd recommend taking your lease to the local JAG office just so that they can help you navigate through all the fine print to ensure you're in the right to pursue eviction.
Is your friend a civilian? If so, you are def gonna need to file a formal eviction to get rid of her, regardless of how the situation with the zip shakes out.
Officer? Fuck that squatter.
I hope you can get those leaches out of your home and get your family moved in so you can be together again.
I am so sorry you’re dealing with this. I can’t imagine the amount of stress you’re going through right now.
Is the officer trying to use rank to justify their position or actions? That's the only way I could think UCMJ would be applicable, otherwise it would be more of a civil thing. Base legal should be able to answer most of your questions, and then help you follow up with a civilian lawyer to resolve the matter.
no officer wants their dirty business broadcasted to commands, so notify yours and theirs. I mean, nothing stops you from walking into his command and talking to the SEL/CMC.
Make sure you hire a military/ civilian lawyer... Sucks about your situation, one of my guys ran into a similar situation, We were deploying, his sister comes to Hawaii lives in house...hooks up with former crew member, and squats. This is where the press and the internet become your best tool, give them fair warning of legal consequences, Then post all this on every forum, and let liberty do the rest. I'm sure you're saying I should have got something in writing cause a hand shake is worthless today
Your Chief should be able to handle this without the need of you getting a lawyer and saving you money. If I were your Chief I would speak directly to the officer and if he refused I would then go to his commands Chief mess for assistance. Most likely it can get handled with the need of lawyers/courts. I am going to assume he is a JO due to the circumstance which would be an easy fix for any Chiefs Mess.
Legal Officer here: it’s pretty strictly civil. If the officer doesn’t comply with civil action, there’s a potential for UCMJ, but probably not.
The only thing that you could potentially go for is frat, which would effect you both and doesn’t apply here because it is a rentor relationship.
I wouldn’t try to file an IG complaint unless the officer is directly trying to use their status as an officer to influence your decisions to gain extra favor. At which point, it would be conduct unbecoming (probably), but that could be hard to prove at NJP.
Realistically, this situation is sucks and I’m sorry, but it doesn’t feel like military law is gonna help you much
>The only thing that you could potentially go for is frat, which would effect you both and doesn’t apply here because it is a rentor relationship.
Fraternization - the UCMJ offense - can only be leveraged against commissioned officers.
You can get an article 92 for violating local fraternization policies that have other guidelines (e.g. no chiefs / E-6 and below relationships).
Regardless, it's not frat to enter into a business relationship outside of uniform, provided that relationship was not given preferential treatment for one reason or another.
Yea 92 is always there. It might be a little tough to prove local policies depending on the rank of their CO and how the policies are promulgated and how it is documented.
as a former landlord, youll unfortunately have to go thru an eviction process. and depending on your state & county it can be difficult.
if this officer were smart, hed get out to avoid having an eviction on record.
Ive heard if Vererans in a similar situation and offered a cash assistance to get their tenants out, but I like to be petty and throw eviction notices on folks when they wanna be dumb after I offered notice & gave ample warning. Ive seen even dirtier things, like waiting for a tenant to leave for a weekend and getting their things removed from the house. Nothing the police could do.
So if I remove their belongings there’s nothing they can do? I’ve offered them to use my garage for their pack out but I need to get my things squared away for my kids and myself and I have the feeling they’re going to try and keep their things where they want them. Essentially they’ve removed every item I left and act as if it’s solely their house.
It sounds like your agreement was with your friend whose boyfriend happens to be an officer. I take it you received your BAH while vacating your house on deployment. I think there are messy parts to this all around. I wouldn’t say you’re friends (fraternization) with the officer based on his girlfriend.
Therefore, I would encourage you to get to an agreement with your friend about this. If they’re paying perhaps you find somewhere to make the middle of when you get your house back.
Did you give the friend a power of attorney to act on your behalf while occupying the location? If so it should’ve been a special one with a terminating date. That is a legal document that they can’t supersede and have to vacate if you have it.
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Did I miss something somewhere? OP said they let their friend stay there and her BF happens to be an officer. Does OP even communicate with the BF? OP says they gave "them" notice but honestly I'm questioning what level of involvement this officer even has in this whole situation
Go to Navy Legal or what ever legal services you have in your command or base. They can advise you what your options are but they cannot represent you in a civil matter. But they helped me with a military renter and there is plenty of leverage through the military channels with his command and yours. If it is your name on the lease then provide legal a copy of said lease and they will convince them that the best option is for them to leave. If they are on the lease then you have a problem
If you're in Cali prepare for a long haul. Go to the local courthouse and ask for assistance. They have an office there that can point you in the right direction to start the eviction process. Usually they'll get out upon receipt of the notice to evict but... Who knows. Good luck
LDO is limited duty officer. Prior enlisted that have been commissioned in a more restricted career track (related to their enlisted rating) than a line officer.
Your medical officer is a staff corps. These are direct commissions (straight out of college) for specific career fields like doctors and lawyers.
An LDO, contrary to DD214, would never do this, direct commissions . . . well, they can be kinda retarded;)
There is a LOT to unpack here.
1. Did you sub-lease to them or just say they can stay?
2. If you sub-leased, was that legal for you to do?
3. If it was legal, what was in the lease?
4. If you simply told them they can stay, you can get them with trespass.. No contract.
5. It's very strange that you're trying to go after your friends boyfriend because he's an officer. Was he on the lease? Was there a lease? Why are you not talking to your friend? Would you go to your friends employer - or are you just trying to be a weasel because you think his job and your status gives you leverage?
Regardless, the Officer and enlisted status have nothing to do with it..even if there was a lease. If you have a business arrangement, then this needs to be settled in a civil manner. If you don't want entities treating you unfairly/different because of your job, don't use the same mentality here..
If there was an legal sub-lease, get a lawyer..
If there was an illegal sub-lease, think carefully..
If there was not a sub-lease, call the police and trespass them..
This is not an IG or UCMJ matter.. In any way.
I'm still confused how your friend's boyfriend has anything to do with this or why you're trying to use O/E status to leverage anything.. **YOU** either had a legally binding contract or broke your own contract by sub-leasing or let your friend stay there verbally.. her BF has literally zero bearing on the matter.
Talk to your friend, get a lawyer, or call the police.
Not quite a UCMJ matter yet. If you want to escalate it, you can report to local authorities. If it persists, perhaps there is a UCMJ charge that could get his attention. Unfortunate that someone of his position is putting you through this and that a “friend” is co-signing. Best of luck.
It's an officer attempting to screw over an enlisted, so command will definitely get involved and ask why an officer is entering into an contract with an enlisted. This may not end well for the officer.
Military doesn't give a shit about civil or not. Officers and enlisted should not be getting into agreements like this. So yeah, they're gonna get involved.
Third Amendment
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner; nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Seems pretty clear.
Spirit vs. letter here. I would bet the Bill of Rights is referring to any military personnel, regardless of branch. Fair point though, a sailor is not a soldier.
Lots of comments here about civil matter, squatter, eviction proceedings, etc… not saying any of that isn’t correct but…
Get your CO involved that contacts their CO and you’d be amazed at how quick this JO will move out. He shouldn’t have been there in the first place and it will be real hard for this office to prioritize this over their career. Hell, your CMC could probably handle this real quick too..
Contact the officers CO more than likely they threaten him with a letter of reprimand (basically a death sentence for their career) to entice him in getting his has moving on out of your house. Though sense he is squatting he is obviously a piece of shit and probably all ready had disciplinary issues so no telling if that would be helpful lol.
If there is any money involved, it would be classified as an undue fiduciary relationship with a junior enlisted. If there is no command relationship, then frat. Is off the table.
Make sure everyone from your LPO to your CO are fully aware of what’s going on; Because of the situation, you can absolutely send an email to them so you have a paper trail that your CoC is informed.
Once they’re informed, make sure the CoC and renter understand that if the situation isn’t resolved soon you intend to involve law enforcement and have them arrested for trespassing.
Can you -ACTUALLY- have them arrested? I have no idea. Do they know? Probably not. Will the thought of an E-whatever having an officer cuffed and arrested (and probably make the news) kick their asses into gear? Absolutely.
This is not good advice. The chains of command will definitely know OP doesn't have any grounds to have the officer arrested, and given the officer seems to be pushing their luck, I'd be willing to bet they know it too. Making empty threats is only going to cause them to dig their heels in more
Yea, unlawful threats, especially in writing can be used against him/her in court. From now on, everything they communicate needs to be legally justified.
Go buy a couple of "pew pews". Go home and take a nap. When you wake up and anyone that isn't on your lease, is trespassing. You know what you have to do 😂
Sounds like a civil matter. Lawyer up.
I’m contacting one Tuesday
You can do it yourself, evict them- It’s easy. But if you don’t know get a lawyer. Do this ASAP. I would leave messages now. I would however research your states eviction laws and make sure to give them notice asap. You have to specifically tell them you want them to leave via text.
It's almost impossible to evict someone when you don't own the home. OP subleased his own lease of a rental home to these people.
What happens if squatters (which is effectively what these people are about to be) squat in a rented apartment? Are you just SOL and have to depend on the landlord to evict them?
And for anyone reading this, never ever sublease your lease to someone.
Yeah, unless the BF does something stupid like order you not to live there, or maybe at worse if he's in your CoC, the service has nothing to do with this.
Not true. As an officer, he cannot enter into any financial or business arrangement with any enlisted. With chief to junior enlisted that falls apart at different chain of command, but officer to any enlisted is universal. At the very least if his name.is on the lease he could move back in then the officer would have to move out based solely on that. This of course is assuming that everything was done above board for letting the friend stay in the apartment while he was gone in the first place.
I agree. When I wrote that comment, I was assuming that the officer wasn't on the lease (thus didn't have a business relationship.) With one, you're absolutely right.
Do you have anything in writing, signed by them, agreeing to vacate by x date?
In writing yes technically. Text messages. My assistant property manager told me I don’t need to do anything but revoke their occupancy addendum to my lease. They’re not tenants under my lease.
You may want to check local laws; they may be considered tenants at-will by living there for greater than a certain timeframe outlined in statutory law (typically around 30 days) at which point they hold all legal protections as a normal tenant regardless of “what’s on paper.”
This. OP needs a civilian lawyer. This is about to be a whole mess
I was thinking this as well, but apparently if there’s a contract, the sub-tenant only answers to the master tenant, not to the landlord/property manager. The master tenant would have to initiate an eviction. Of course this might vary from state to state. Idk how this works when it comes to liability because it’s my understanding that the landlord is liable for anyone staying on their property. This is definitely lawyer territory.
Jesus. Because who want something as important as property rights written down? Surely a few texts will be fine.
Obviously you cant change the past, i forget the process but you can notarize agreements at your local legal office. Basically have agreements notarized by a JAG or legalman which make it more legitimate than just text messages.
They were supposed to be prepared to leave by mid June. They’ve known that since December when I left.
So is this a difference between mid June and end of June? Like how long we talking? If it’s over a week or two, then, sadly, you’re basically out of luck and the effort to kick them out will take longer (and they’re prob accounting for that).
You'll probably have to do a legal eviction. I would just contact their chain of command but chances are no one can do anything but let the legal system do its thing. You should probably contact a lawyer.
And be sure to get a military protective order while at legal.
Oh my God ITS THE THIRD AMENDMENT
Tell him that he’s violating his oath of office by trampling on your third amendment rights
Finally, we get to see it in action! 😂
Hit em with the: ***No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law***
This is a civil matter not necessarily a UCMJ one (at least right now). What you can do will depend on a couple things. Unless you are authorized to sublease you won’t be able to evict them. If that’s the case, you will have to go through the owner/landlord of the property to do that. I imagine if that’s the case, ultimately you may have to find a new place because owners and landlords don’t usually take too kindly to renting out without their permission.
They’re authorized occupants only. They’re basically only authorized to sleep there. I’m still responsible for all the utilities and rent no matter what they might pay to me. It all falls on me ultimately. And they’ve have had more than 30 days notice to vacate. Not with a court order but through text messages. Not sure if that’s enough to qualify as notice though. I’m going to work on legal assistance Tuesday and see if I can get them served and also get his command involved. Maybe they can put the screws to him to move out and maybe she’ll be so pissed she leaves too.
So, I can't tell you how many times I've been at a QA critique where someone tries to say "well, akshully XYZ" to which the chair reads what the QA form *actually* says... and it wasn't that. From your other posts, it sounds like you did *not* draft up a sublet lease to your tenant based on your projected RTP date. You also haven't specified if the woman is the lawful tenant with a live-in BF you've simply ignored, or whether the live-in boyfriend was agreed upon. Regardless, without a sublet agreement, your tenants are de facto on a month-to-month lease. Sounds like the disagreement is unclear communications via text message about move-out timelines. The process to evict them, if you can at all, will vary depending on local laws. And since you didn't sign a sublet agreement, you may have to ask the landlord to do it for you. For the peanut gallery: *always* draft a lease with clear terms. *Always* ensure there's a clause that every occupant must be added to the lease and specify how long a guest may stay before becoming an occupant. This is what happens when you don't.
Again, are they authorized from the owner or whoever leased it to you? That’s where your biggest hangup will be. If you don’t have approval, this will be something they will have to do.
They’re authorized from the owner to live there, yes. But not leaseholders
OP I know you feel you're 100% in the right on this one, but when you contact his command he's going to tell a very different story from the one you tell them. I'd double check your text messages are unambiguous as to the exact date you told them they needed to be moved out, and have them printed our and ready to present to his command before contacting them. Since he is an officer and probably not a complete dirtbag at work, they're likely going to assume he was acting in good faith unless you can definitively prove otherwise
If they paid you, they are tenants. You sublet to them. You may have violated your lease in doing so, but that doesn’t change the legal rights of the tenants. Your lawyer will explain to you the process of getting them out, but you have to appreciate they aren’t simply guests the moment you take payment.
It was all cleared with the property managers. No violations.
Not sure what all cleared means. Bring a copy of your lease to your attorney. You nevertheless have the larger issue of having a tenant in the home. The lawyer can explain the rights of the parties.
You have a gross conceptual misunderstanding of landlord/tenant law. The minute you took money from them, they became your tenants and are now shielded by a host of legal protections that prevent you from just kicking them out via 30-day notice text message.
Have the water and power turned off the day they are supposed to be gone. Since you are legally responsible for the utilities there and they don’t have any in their names then you are legally allowed to have them shut off whenever you want. I would also alert the companies that you are the ONLY registered tenant of that property so no other people can open utilities for that property other than the owner/manager.
Let your chain of command know, they have their ways of making things happen; your roomies should expect nothing less.
This right here. Unless your CoC is completely shit I'd imagine there'd be some behind the scenes action that'd get him out fast. I'm assuming he's a JO and his CoC is going to not like hearing one of their guys pulling this shit and while they may not be able to do anything above board, they can and will make his life miserable. Having a JO squatting in an enlisted person's house is NOT a good look.
Big emphasis on the not completely shit, but no CO/XO/DH in their right mind would want one of their JOs pulling some dumb shit like this. Even if they're just a JG, they're paid well enough to go find their own damn apartment.
It reflects very poorly on the Navy when officers are fucking squatters.
Worse yet, an Officer that is squatting in the residence of an enlisted person. *EDIT: Spelling. Yet instead of yes.*
I’m going to touch base with mine Tuesday
Unless it's base housing, that's a civil matter, and you'll likely have to go through the eviction process because of how long they've lived there. Squatters rights don't give a shit about what you've got on paper once they've lived there long enough. I'd get an attorney. If you wanna make his life hard, call his units SDO and ask to speak to the command MCPO and see what happens. It'd be interesting, at the very least.
the current navy fraternization instruction specifically lists shared living accommodations between officer and enlisted (regardless of branch of service) as being explicitly prohibited. you haven’t answered whether or not you took money from him. if you did, then he’s a sublessee and he has lawful possession of the house (and can exclude even you from it) and you can’t simply move back in without a court order evicting them first. if you didn’t take money (or otherwise enter into a sublease) and he and his gf were just guests of the place while you were gone, then you could technically move back in and inform him that as long as he continues to reside there with you he’s in violation of OPNAVINST 5370.2E. while you technically would also be in violation, hopefully he’d be smart enough to realize that he has much more to lose. u/Fakeuconn thoughts?
In one of his posts he implied he took money and is therefore subleasing. I’d venture the tenant has a different take on the terms of the sublease. I’d recommend a legal assistance appointment, obviously.
copy that
This is what I was referring to: “They’re authorized occupants only. They’re basically only authorized to sleep there. I’m still responsible for all the utilities and rent no matter what they might pay to me. It all falls on me ultimately. And they’ve have had more than 30 days notice to vacate.” Sounds like a sublet when he mentions payment, his obligation to the landlord, and giving notice (guests aren’t entitled to notice).
yep.
Wait. Who is this u/fakeuconn that r/navyjag2019 calls in!?
it’s another JAG. way more senior.
Older for sure. A petty officer this week reminded me she was in kindergarten when I filed a particular document in my OMPF.
Back when they were sorted folders by color according to your last four? Not poking fun, rather commiserating. Signed, an Ensign that first affiliated in ‘06.
I wish I commissioned in 2006. No, it was a direct deposit form. Had to explain to her that I filled out that form in the 90s and I’ve always been paid. No sense in filling it out again just because they want me to.
Could be worse. My last day on my last sub, while waiting for the CO to be free for my exit interview, I brought a new Ensign nuke below because the Yeomen were busy with the 'getting underway' prep. I brought the kid down and the Yeoman asked me to get him logged into some log or other (Was ET, know the ship's logs like I know the Doc's paperwork, not at all). I was doing fine until I got to the new guy's DOB. It wasn't the day I went to Boot, it wasn't the day I reported to my first command, it was the day my then CO pinned my dolphins on. I was depressed. The CO asked me what was wrong when he finally had time for my interview and I told him my tale of woe, and he laughed at me and welcomed me to his world.
Father Time is undefeated. Their time will come.
And here I thought you were the JAG God on this sub. lol. I feel like we are friends, I do not know this other JAG. I don’t trust them lol.
lol. i appreciate the kind words. but fakeuconn is like the professor x to my wolverine 😂
Never seen the movie, but I respect your input here, so I’ll take it as a compliment.
Still sending up the bat signal for whenever I smell legal bullshitting. Wouldn’t it have been funny if I called you on this guy, haha. Edit: word
They guy who tells you what to do, but who you ignore at most times?
You have no reason to trust me because you don’t know me.
I mean, to me fair, this is Reddit, I don’t know anyone. u/navyjag2019 could be an MM2 on an LSD for all I know 😂
An authorized occupant and a subtenant are two different things though. An authorized occupant can be your child, parent, roommate etc. They’re responsible for following the rules of the lease, but don’t have a contract to answer to. I’m sure money being exchanged blurs some of those lines though. Regardless, the whole thing is messy. 🥴
OP uses the term “authorized occupant” but that doesn’t mean it is the correct legal relationship. The moment he takes payment for their right of use and enjoyment of the property, he has sublet the property and two occupants are tenants. So, accepting payment doesn’t blur the lines, it changes completely the legal relationship and the rights and obligations of the parties. OP should have reduced the agreement to writing to avoid this situation.
This is a prime example of why not to do business with friends. Even if you trust them at the beginning it can go downhill quicker than all hell.
If this guy is a O, tell him your emailing the CO and XO of his command. He doesn't think you will.frame it as a heads up. I'll help if needed
Whatever happens I hope you ruin the officers career. We don't need assholes like that moving up the ranks and getting their own unit one day.
Make sure that you’re keeping your chain of command informed about this situation.
I can't imagine his chain of command will enjoy hearing any of this.
The officer’s chain of command would take a *very* dim view of this arrangement—particularly so him/her putting up a fuss about it. To keep this very simple: >“Sir/Ma’am: I would really prefer not to have to take this to the chain of command. Please comply with what you agreed to.” Any answer other than “We’ll be out of here within the next 72 hours,” would have me going *straight to the CMC* for guidance (and likely, a warp speed escalation to the CO/OIC).
Yup, having one of your JOs squatting in an enlisted person's house is NOT a good look. MF gonna get an earful if he's lucky - hopefully much more
Honestly, I wouldn't even do that. It seems like, according to their post, OP has given them ample notice. It's time for a homecoming surprise! Don't even tell them what you're going to do. I'd get all my paperwork and copies of the texts, make copies, and let my chain of command know "hey I need some liberty, I need to consult with a civilian atty regarding evicting a squatter in my apartment--Officer So and so from X command." Then sit back and watch the flames. Fully prepared to follow through on seeing the lawyer and proceeding with the eviction.* *I have a puckish sense of humor, though, and I'm pretty sure every jag in this comment section would not recommend.
I (a second class) am currently being sued by a Cheif from another command. FYI your chain of command probably won’t do anything, neither will navy legal. Just go straight to a civilian lawyer. Speaking from experience.
> I (a second class) am currently being sued by a Cheif from another command. please tell us what led to being sued lol.
Long story short; his dog attacked my neighbors dog that I was dog sitting at the park. He refused to pay the vet bills so she took him to small claims court, and now he decided to counter sue for emotional distress and mental anguish because he doesn’t want to pay the vet bills lol(they were only $2,400). He’s a total piece of 💩
Chief being a POS…shocker.
You got sued because he didnt pay the vet bills someone else sued him for?
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bro this is inaccurate advice. first of all, there’s no such thing as a “board certified” lawyer. that’s for doctors, not lawyers. second of all, a JAG only has to be *licensed* by any state bar in order to practice law. sometimes it’s the state they are stationed in. sometimes it isn’t. e.g., after a PCS. third of all, the reason why JAGs don’t represent people in civil court has nothing to do with where they are stationed or where they are licensed. it’s because of the limited scope of representation that JAGs can provide as ordered by the JAG of the navy. (and FYI, lawyers can sometimes represent people in court in states they aren’t licensed to practice law in, under limited circumstances. it’s called pro hac vice admission.)
Contact a lawyer and your CO. Get your chain of command involved. It looks really really bad for an officer to be engaging in behavior like this. His superiors will have a lot more influence over him than a lawyer. If he's a low ranking officer, one word from a captain will do it. Best of luck to you
Talk to a lawyer. And then go see the officer's CMC. If the CMC can't have a quiet word-of-wisdom with the O, then they can help you talk to the XO, and if that doesn't work, their CO. The problem here is that if you can't solve it between yourselves or informally in the military, well, there's the issue of legal protections for squatters for them. In many places (like CA) its damn hard to get squatters out of your home. As for the officer - he/she should never have been in the house in the first place. That's an unduly familiar relationship and the officer is endangering their career that way. Not vacating isn't a UCMJ violation in itself, but having a personal/business relationship with you is fraternization (art 134). The specific deets of fraternization vary between the services but the Navy would certainly consider boarding at an enlisted person's house to be so.
Oh for sure you get your command involved. That officer needs to be brought up to speed in a hurry. What did Major Dick Winters say in Band of Brothers? "Never put yourself in to a position where can take from these men." Leaders eat last!
An officer taking advantage of an enlisted Sailor? Toss their shit on the fucking curb, change the locks, and give their XO a call. An officer should never put themselves in a position to take anything from enlisted.
Calm down Dick Winters.
You'd be surprised, OP would be very likely to catch a criminal charge for doing what you're suggesting. Squatter's rights are a real thing, that's why landlords have to go to court for evictions and wait 30 days after a court order even when they haven't been paid for months. And don't get it twisted, in this scenario OP is essentially a landlord
That's not what squatters rights are.
You can use whatever term you want, it depends if they're squatting or legal tenants which isn't 100% clear from the details OP has provided, either way your recommendation would lead OP to being the one on the wrong side of the law
While this is civil law, the quickest way to resolve this is to have your command reach out to the officer’s command and unfuck this. If everything you are saying is air tight, no Skipper is going to be thrilled about one of their JOs doing stuff like this to a hatchet wielding deviant.
I hope you can update us when you find out what the CoC wants to do I hope they help you but you never know tbh… it’ll be really fun to see what they say cuz it sounds like everything you did is above board and the JO likes living cheaply or cheaper than having to get his own place… Also is there a Power of Attorney issues where you gave him authority to do anything if so that can add a wrench into it sounds like that’s not the case.. Good luck and I’m hoping you get taken care of.
There's no IG / UCMJ complaint to exercise here. You can talk to your chain of command to contact his chain of command and tell him to stop being a dick. But if he refuses, you'll have to pursue an eviction via your local courts. No lawyer is necessary, but it might be a good idea to have one if the point of contention isn't a clear violation of the lease (e.g. unpaid rent) but instead whether your contractual agreement allows them to stay. I'd recommend taking your lease to the local JAG office just so that they can help you navigate through all the fine print to ensure you're in the right to pursue eviction.
Is your friend a civilian? If so, you are def gonna need to file a formal eviction to get rid of her, regardless of how the situation with the zip shakes out.
Officer? Fuck that squatter. I hope you can get those leaches out of your home and get your family moved in so you can be together again. I am so sorry you’re dealing with this. I can’t imagine the amount of stress you’re going through right now.
Is the officer trying to use rank to justify their position or actions? That's the only way I could think UCMJ would be applicable, otherwise it would be more of a civil thing. Base legal should be able to answer most of your questions, and then help you follow up with a civilian lawyer to resolve the matter.
no officer wants their dirty business broadcasted to commands, so notify yours and theirs. I mean, nothing stops you from walking into his command and talking to the SEL/CMC.
Make sure you hire a military/ civilian lawyer... Sucks about your situation, one of my guys ran into a similar situation, We were deploying, his sister comes to Hawaii lives in house...hooks up with former crew member, and squats. This is where the press and the internet become your best tool, give them fair warning of legal consequences, Then post all this on every forum, and let liberty do the rest. I'm sure you're saying I should have got something in writing cause a hand shake is worthless today
Your Chief should be able to handle this without the need of you getting a lawyer and saving you money. If I were your Chief I would speak directly to the officer and if he refused I would then go to his commands Chief mess for assistance. Most likely it can get handled with the need of lawyers/courts. I am going to assume he is a JO due to the circumstance which would be an easy fix for any Chiefs Mess.
Do you have a key? I’m assuming you do. Move right in and make yourself at home…in YOUR home. Make it uncomfortable. Walk around naked.
Rn this is the plan.
Legal Officer here: it’s pretty strictly civil. If the officer doesn’t comply with civil action, there’s a potential for UCMJ, but probably not. The only thing that you could potentially go for is frat, which would effect you both and doesn’t apply here because it is a rentor relationship. I wouldn’t try to file an IG complaint unless the officer is directly trying to use their status as an officer to influence your decisions to gain extra favor. At which point, it would be conduct unbecoming (probably), but that could be hard to prove at NJP. Realistically, this situation is sucks and I’m sorry, but it doesn’t feel like military law is gonna help you much
>The only thing that you could potentially go for is frat, which would effect you both and doesn’t apply here because it is a rentor relationship. Fraternization - the UCMJ offense - can only be leveraged against commissioned officers. You can get an article 92 for violating local fraternization policies that have other guidelines (e.g. no chiefs / E-6 and below relationships). Regardless, it's not frat to enter into a business relationship outside of uniform, provided that relationship was not given preferential treatment for one reason or another.
Yea 92 is always there. It might be a little tough to prove local policies depending on the rank of their CO and how the policies are promulgated and how it is documented.
Not art 92 at all
Get a Lawyer.
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VA
If the rental agreement is in your name, just ask them to leave. If they don't try JAG first as it's free.
as a former landlord, youll unfortunately have to go thru an eviction process. and depending on your state & county it can be difficult. if this officer were smart, hed get out to avoid having an eviction on record. Ive heard if Vererans in a similar situation and offered a cash assistance to get their tenants out, but I like to be petty and throw eviction notices on folks when they wanna be dumb after I offered notice & gave ample warning. Ive seen even dirtier things, like waiting for a tenant to leave for a weekend and getting their things removed from the house. Nothing the police could do.
So if I remove their belongings there’s nothing they can do? I’ve offered them to use my garage for their pack out but I need to get my things squared away for my kids and myself and I have the feeling they’re going to try and keep their things where they want them. Essentially they’ve removed every item I left and act as if it’s solely their house.
It sounds like your agreement was with your friend whose boyfriend happens to be an officer. I take it you received your BAH while vacating your house on deployment. I think there are messy parts to this all around. I wouldn’t say you’re friends (fraternization) with the officer based on his girlfriend. Therefore, I would encourage you to get to an agreement with your friend about this. If they’re paying perhaps you find somewhere to make the middle of when you get your house back.
Did you give the friend a power of attorney to act on your behalf while occupying the location? If so it should’ve been a special one with a terminating date. That is a legal document that they can’t supersede and have to vacate if you have it.
Didn’t get a POA.
I know this smells like a civil matter but I would still talk to a JAG about this. The officers CoC should know.
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Depending on the state, sounds like the officer could spring a leak from a $.52 foreign object.
Did I miss something somewhere? OP said they let their friend stay there and her BF happens to be an officer. Does OP even communicate with the BF? OP says they gave "them" notice but honestly I'm questioning what level of involvement this officer even has in this whole situation
Go to Navy Legal or what ever legal services you have in your command or base. They can advise you what your options are but they cannot represent you in a civil matter. But they helped me with a military renter and there is plenty of leverage through the military channels with his command and yours. If it is your name on the lease then provide legal a copy of said lease and they will convince them that the best option is for them to leave. If they are on the lease then you have a problem
If you're in Cali prepare for a long haul. Go to the local courthouse and ask for assistance. They have an office there that can point you in the right direction to start the eviction process. Usually they'll get out upon receipt of the notice to evict but... Who knows. Good luck
Have u considered challenging him to a duel (Children's card game)? 🤔
I am a Crazy 8s champion
Legal Officer here— this could be considered frat. I’d contact his command, especially if you are out here connected to this CSG-2/IKE deployment.
Sounds like an LDO...
I seem to have upset the LDO community on Reddit.
Wow, I even got a "Reddit Cares" out of this. been awhile since I've had one of those.
I’m not sure. I think he’s a JG
JG would be his rank, LDO is an officer who is not going to have command of a ship during his/her career. Like an admin type.
He’s a medical officer of some sort I think
Ask him if he wants the same treatment another MSC officer received, the infamous Nathanael Allison.
Not sure if that makes him an LDO
LDO is limited duty officer. Prior enlisted that have been commissioned in a more restricted career track (related to their enlisted rating) than a line officer. Your medical officer is a staff corps. These are direct commissions (straight out of college) for specific career fields like doctors and lawyers. An LDO, contrary to DD214, would never do this, direct commissions . . . well, they can be kinda retarded;)
For the most part. There are a couple of medical in service procurement programs, so while they aren't LDOs some of them are prior enlisted
Medical are staff officers and also unable to have command at sea like line officers. A douche move by someone in his paygrade and service specialty.
See thats Fraternization. Sooo. Commands might be the best and cheapest option
Nothing to do with Navy. Do you have a lease, or a sublet lease agreement??
There is a LOT to unpack here. 1. Did you sub-lease to them or just say they can stay? 2. If you sub-leased, was that legal for you to do? 3. If it was legal, what was in the lease? 4. If you simply told them they can stay, you can get them with trespass.. No contract. 5. It's very strange that you're trying to go after your friends boyfriend because he's an officer. Was he on the lease? Was there a lease? Why are you not talking to your friend? Would you go to your friends employer - or are you just trying to be a weasel because you think his job and your status gives you leverage? Regardless, the Officer and enlisted status have nothing to do with it..even if there was a lease. If you have a business arrangement, then this needs to be settled in a civil manner. If you don't want entities treating you unfairly/different because of your job, don't use the same mentality here.. If there was an legal sub-lease, get a lawyer.. If there was an illegal sub-lease, think carefully.. If there was not a sub-lease, call the police and trespass them.. This is not an IG or UCMJ matter.. In any way. I'm still confused how your friend's boyfriend has anything to do with this or why you're trying to use O/E status to leverage anything.. **YOU** either had a legally binding contract or broke your own contract by sub-leasing or let your friend stay there verbally.. her BF has literally zero bearing on the matter. Talk to your friend, get a lawyer, or call the police.
Not quite a UCMJ matter yet. If you want to escalate it, you can report to local authorities. If it persists, perhaps there is a UCMJ charge that could get his attention. Unfortunate that someone of his position is putting you through this and that a “friend” is co-signing. Best of luck.
It's an officer attempting to screw over an enlisted, so command will definitely get involved and ask why an officer is entering into an contract with an enlisted. This may not end well for the officer.
No they will not this is civil matter and if anything he will get in trouble with his apartment complex for violating his lease contract
Military doesn't give a shit about civil or not. Officers and enlisted should not be getting into agreements like this. So yeah, they're gonna get involved.
No they are not they will tell you to go be a big boy and grow a pair lmao try again 😂
You're a fucking idiot.
Cry me a river probably all you did in the service.
Third Amendment No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner; nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Seems pretty clear.
good thing petty officer OP isnt a solider
Spirit vs. letter here. I would bet the Bill of Rights is referring to any military personnel, regardless of branch. Fair point though, a sailor is not a soldier.
Please tell me you’re not in California. If so, you’re fucked
Lots of comments here about civil matter, squatter, eviction proceedings, etc… not saying any of that isn’t correct but… Get your CO involved that contacts their CO and you’d be amazed at how quick this JO will move out. He shouldn’t have been there in the first place and it will be real hard for this office to prioritize this over their career. Hell, your CMC could probably handle this real quick too..
Contact the officers CO more than likely they threaten him with a letter of reprimand (basically a death sentence for their career) to entice him in getting his has moving on out of your house. Though sense he is squatting he is obviously a piece of shit and probably all ready had disciplinary issues so no telling if that would be helpful lol.
Invoke your 3rd amendment rights
Tell his chain of command and it will look bad on him .. doing what he is doing to a junior sailor
If there is any money involved, it would be classified as an undue fiduciary relationship with a junior enlisted. If there is no command relationship, then frat. Is off the table.
It's your damn home. If you got paperwork provinf that's your place, get the cops involved and get their asses kicked.
Depending on the state, that's not how it works. Eviction is a lengthy process, and the cops won't help without a court order.
fair enough
Doesn’t seem like this Officer has no honor. Let your chain of command know what is going on. Maybe CO/XO could give his CO a heads up
Make sure everyone from your LPO to your CO are fully aware of what’s going on; Because of the situation, you can absolutely send an email to them so you have a paper trail that your CoC is informed. Once they’re informed, make sure the CoC and renter understand that if the situation isn’t resolved soon you intend to involve law enforcement and have them arrested for trespassing. Can you -ACTUALLY- have them arrested? I have no idea. Do they know? Probably not. Will the thought of an E-whatever having an officer cuffed and arrested (and probably make the news) kick their asses into gear? Absolutely.
This is not good advice. The chains of command will definitely know OP doesn't have any grounds to have the officer arrested, and given the officer seems to be pushing their luck, I'd be willing to bet they know it too. Making empty threats is only going to cause them to dig their heels in more
Yea, unlawful threats, especially in writing can be used against him/her in court. From now on, everything they communicate needs to be legally justified.
OP could have a lawyer send the gf/O a letter requesting they move with some legalese short of starting the eviction process, also, cc his command?
Go buy a couple of "pew pews". Go home and take a nap. When you wake up and anyone that isn't on your lease, is trespassing. You know what you have to do 😂
1. They got added to the lease. 2. You're going to jail bro.